Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 19 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 500



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)
Re: MT question: Prismatic aerosol
Another MT question: Autofire and RoF
MT question: Prismatic aerosol
Re: Fleshpots and Marketing...
Re: Marc Miller's T4 
Re: Starship Morgages and the Imperial Calender
Re: Escort tonnage
Re: MT question: Prismatic aerosol
Power Distribution
Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments
Regency Book
Where can I find the errata for FFS2?
RE: Marches Sourcebook
RE: Ongoing discussion on Gurps: Traveller
Re: Marches Sourcebook 
Re: BATF...
Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments
Re: Ongoing discussion on Gurps: Traveller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 09:46:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael and MJ Houghton <herveus@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)

Howdy!

Merrick wrote in response to various people (attribution lost):
>  
> > >        If there is trouble in an area, traders will convoy each other.
> > >        10 fat traders (one missile turret, one laser) have far more
> > >        firepower, than a single Gazelle Close Escord.
> > 
[snip]
> > 
> > (Not to say that the Gazelle is a great escort either - a better niche 
> > ship would have lower jump performance but high maneuver, decent armour, 
> > and an all-laser weapons suite.)
> 
> Another thing to consider is what actually is the threat? Raiding
> attacks during wartime will result in dead convoys, including the
> CEs (if they are Gazelles). Piracy is a totally different story.
> Pirates need to board and capture the target. A high-g military ship
> that can jamm and avaoid damage while picking at them makes their
> job impossible without killing the escort first. This could give the
> civies time to escape. Even if the pirates nail a ship, the rest can
> simply evade around an unchanging vector with their crippled friend,
> and the escort can nail the pirate if it tries to board.

Merchant escort in a war situation and anti-piracy actions call for
different responses. I'm not going to address the war situation; it
needs bigger iron than I care to deal with right now.

Piracy (in my view) is a fringe mercantile activity, not a military
activity. As such, vessels engaged in piratical acts will not generally
be armed with "military grade" weaponry. The objective, after all is 
to have usable stuff to steal; too big a gun leaves rubble. Even a
specialized pirate ship will still be relatively lightly armed (for
some value of "relatively"). Pirates also will be reluctant to get
shot up, preferring easy pickings (in contrast to naval combatants
which are expected to go in harm's way and not necessarily come back).
Thus, a couple of free traders in arms travelling in convoy will 
present a serious threat to a single pirate ship.

I think of how sail powered merchant ships were often armed, even if
with relative pop-guns (4 pounder, maybe 6 pounder if extravagent). 
If the threat is in small craft, it's enough to ruin the pirates' day
(with adequate gunnery). An unarmed merchant is limited to running away
and resisting boarding.

yours,
Michael
- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@access.digex.net  | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.access.digex.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 08:58:35 -0500 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: MT question: Prismatic aerosol

>> I was going through my MT books tonight, and I came across prismatic
>> aerosol. ...

<snip>

>>What is it?
>
>It's a laser defense.  What it does is, when you spray it in the air, it
>disperses laser bolts shot at you.
>
>> What is anti-laser aerosol, for that matter?
>
>See above.

So why are there seperate entries for prismatic and anti-laser aerosols in
the Ref's Manual if they both do the same thing?

>> And what is the benefit of a sandcaster on a vehicle like a Trepida grav
>> tank? Can it help ablate energy weapons fire, and if so, by how much.
>
>A sandcaster can help cut down on the hits you'll take from laser or
>energy weapons because it throws a 'cloud' of solid matter up around you
>for a few seconds.  Energy bolt hits the cloud and disperses.  Less of it
>hits *you*.

A few seconds? So how does the Trepid (for example) know when to throw up
the cloud? I mean, incoming fire is at the speed of light (in the case of
lasers), so any incoming attack will hit well before you can throw up the
screen. Or is believable that the sand can be maintained in a cloud through
some means (magnetically???) even in the face of gravity and atmosphere
efects?

More importantly (for my purposes, anyway) what are the *MT game effects*
of prismatic aerosol, anti-laser aerosol, and sandcasters on small
vehicles?

Thanks for the response,


Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 08:58:37 -0500 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Another MT question: Autofire and RoF

Okay, here's another question for those familiar with (or still playing MT).

How fast do you go through ammunition during autofire? There is no RoF
listed for small arms. The only reference I can find to ammo usage is under
"rapid fire," where it states that all the ammo is used in one round of
rapid fire. And under the machineguns I find the sentence "Rapid fire uses
ammo at a rate 3 times that of regular fire." But since it isn't mentioned
what regular fire usage is for these weapons, this sentence is useless.

Now some of the big weapons in the Referee's Manual have a RoF listed in
the design sequence, and I assume that these are all per minute (as it is
stated under the starship weapons chart). So, I suppose I can divide those
numbers by 10 to get ammo usage per combat round (6 seconds). But it is
only listed for a few weapons, a lot of which don't run out of ammo anyway
(drawing off of a vehicle's power plant).

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance,



Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 09:04:24 -0500
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: MT question: Prismatic aerosol

Keven Pittsinger wrote:

> > And what is the benefit of a sandcaster on a vehicle like a Trepida grav
> > tank? Can it help ablate energy weapons fire, and if so, by how much.
>
> A sandcaster can help cut down on the hits you'll take from laser or energy 
> weapons because it throws a 'cloud' of solid matter up around you for a few
> seconds.  Energy bolt hits the cloud and disperses.  Less of it hits *you*.

The Trepida was originally designed for MegaTraveller.  Under those rules, a
sandcaster can also be thought of as a giant shotgun; there's a table in the 
combat rules converting starship weapons for use as heavy weapons against
vehicles and people.  

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 10:03:20 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Fleshpots and Marketing...

TravelrTNE wrote:

> > > Clone whatever they want.  From the book, i'd suspect each vat is limited
> > > (though maybe they can be "reprogrammed") to one kind.  Small ships (w/ a
> > > limited # of vats) are said to have comments like "beef again? i'd kill
> for
> > > lamb" be heard.
> >
> > Cloning would still require raw biomass to build from.  If you're going to
> store
> > biomass, you may as well extrude processed biomass into tubes, flats, or
> various
> > other shapes and add flavouring, color and texture.
>
> There is no flavoring.  You're making yourself a real slab of beef (or
> whatever).  You might want ketchup and accessories, but that won't fill a
> ships locker (and is negligible according to FFS2).  The raw biomass will be
> necessary.  Even that, I think will be a very small number unless ones
> stocking up for a long trip (months at least).  Remember u only clone what u
> eat. No waste (unless u want a bone to chew on).

I'm just talking about cold cuts. Like the processed turkey breast that gets
pumped into a sack, then cooked into a coherent shape. You can store the
precooked processed biomass in a tank. Then, when you need it, pump it into
various moulds,  adding appropriate flavor, color and texture to simulate the
real thing.

I think its probably the next step past the cloned meat. After you grow the meat
(which I suspect takes a couple  years at least), you then process it in some
way.  You can save on storage by just getting the processed stuff off the bat.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 07:15:21 PDT
From: "Odin Sveinsson" <helsefyr34@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's T4 

Hello everyone,

	I am new to this mailer and was unaware of the fact that
Mr. Miller is no longer with Imperial games. So then what is the 
situation and why? What state is Traveller in now? So the last 
four products I asked about are out there but not being produced
anymore. That would explain why so little of the T4 stuff has been
in the gaming stores over the past five months or so.
	When did this all occure? Was this the reason why the 
Traveller Journel was cancelled? What caused this all to happen?
So you say Mr. Miller coming up with yet again another version
of the game...oh great!
	I have been collecting this stuff over the past 22+ years
and I truly must say that I'm sick and tired of this company or that
company dropping this, changing that, or coming out with new rules.
When will we end up with a stable game?

Odin
>
>Well, amarin, I do appriciate your enthusiasm and welcome to the list.
>However, you are just slightly out of date. Mr. Miller and Traveller 
are no
>longer associated with IG, so I would say that the chances of them 
producing
>a newsgroups are rather slim. As  to why T4 isn't in more stores, well, 
I
>can only think that since it isn't being produced anym more it will 
only get
>worse.
>
>But all is not lost! Marc has assured the List that he is still working on a
>new and improved version of Trav and is in contact with several publishers,
>negotiating for it's release. I have a great deal of faith that the new
>publishers Marc selects will do a much better job publishing Traveller and
>marketing it!
>
>Mike Peters
>Letterworks@CITNET.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 10:12:16 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Morgages and the Imperial Calender

Leonard Erickson wrote:


> +------------------------------------------------------------------------+
> |                                Holiday                                 |
> +------------------------------------------------------------------------+
> |                             First Quarter                              |
> +------------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | First                 |  Second                |  Third                |
> |  o  t  t  f  f  s  s  |   o  t  t  f  f  s  s  |   o  t  t  f  f  s  s |
> |  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  |           33 34 35 36  |                 63 64 |
> |  9 10 11 12 13 14 15  |  37 38 39 40 41 42 43  |  65 66 67 68 69 70 71 |
> | 16 17 18 19 20 21 22  |  44 45 46 47 48 49 50  |  72 73 74 75 76 77 78 |
> | 23 24 25 26 27 28 29  |  51 52 53 54 55 56 57  |  79 80 81 82 83 84 85 |
> | 30 31 32              |  58 59 60 61 62        |  86 87 88 89 90 91 92 |
> +------------------------------------------------------------------------+
> |                             Second Quarter                             |
> +------------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | Fourth                |  Fifth                 |  Sixth                |
> |  o  t  t  f  f  s  s  |   o  t  t  f  f  s  s  |   o  t  t  f  f  s  s |
> | 93 94 95 96 97 98 99  |          124 25 26 27  |                154 55 |
> |100 01 02 03 04 05 06  | 128 29 30 31 32 33 34  | 156 57 58 59 60 61 62 |
> |107 08 09 10 11 12 13  | 135 36 37 38 39 40 41  | 163 64 65 66 67 68 69 |
> |114 15 16 17 18 19 20  | 142 43 44 45 46 47 48  | 170 71 72 73 74 75 76 |
> |121 22 23              | 149 50 51 52 53        | 177 78 79 80 81 82 83 |
> +------------------------------------------------------------------------+
> |                             Third Quarter                              |
> +------------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | Seventh               |  Eight                 |  Ninth                |
> |  o  t  t  f  f  s  s  |   o  t  t  f  f  s  s  |   o  t  t  f  f  s  s |
> |184 85 86 87 88 89 90  |          215 16 17 18  |                245 46 |
> |191 92 93 94 95 96 97  | 219 20 21 22 23 24 25  | 247 48 49 50 51 52 53 |
> |198 99 00 01 02 03 04  | 226 27 28 29 30 31 32  | 254 55 56 57 58 59 60 |
> |205 06 07 08 09 10 11  | 233 34 35 36 37 38 39  | 261 62 63 64 65 66 67 |
> |212 13 14              | 240 41 42 43 44        | 268 69 70 71 72 73 74 |
> +------------------------------------------------------------------------+
> |                             Fourth Quarter                             |
> +------------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | Tenth                 |  Eleventh              |  Twelfth              |
> |  o  t  t  f  f  s  s  |   o  t  t  f  f  s  s  |   o  t  t  f  f  s  s |
> |275 76 77 78 79 80 81  |          306 07 08 09  |                336 37 |
> |282 83 84 85 86 87 88  | 310 11 12 13 14 15 16  | 338 39 40 41 42 43 44 |
> |289 90 91 92 93 94 95  | 317 18 19 20 21 22 23  | 345 46 47 48 49 50 51 |
> |296 97 98 99 00 01 02  | 324 25 26 27 28 29 30  | 352 53 54 55 56 57 58 |
> |303 04 05              | 331 32 33 34 35        | 359 60 61 62 63 64 65 |
> +------------------------------------------------------------------------+
>
> Each quarter is 91 days. The first month in each quarter is 31 days,
> the other two are 30 days.
>

That makes for a convenient Tax Day/Accountant's Day. The day that everyone
calls in sick for work so that they can do their taxes and send it off before
the ImpRS hit squad gets to them.

> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:22:20 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage

Peter H. Brenton writes:

>>I would think that the size of an escort force would depend on the threat
>>it is guarding against and not the size of the convoy. Though I suppose
>>there would be some correlation (fatter targets attract more predators),
>>the correlation would be far from linear.
> 
>Well, Imagine if you will an area in which it is fairly likely that an
>unescorted vessel will be attacked.  Perhaps there is a high incidence of
>Vargr Raiding going on, or maybe there is a tradewar, or a real war, and
>merchants who wish to trade in the area are willing to give up a percentage
>of their profits to pay for more firepower on a temporary basis. 

Well, first of all this deals with private, hired escort ships whereas I was
under the impression that Jo was talking about the naval assets of the
Imperium compared to the merchant fleet of same. The two cannot be compared.

>The question is, how many ships will feel safe escorted by one 400 ton CE?

Just to avoid a potential digression: We're assuming that one 400 T CE is
thought sufficient to deal with the potential threat, right? I mean, I
might privately believe that you would need more than one ship to deal
with, say, two raiders acting in tandem (one to distract the escort and
to make a capture, perhaps). Or that you might need a 1000 T destroyer
and a couple of patrol boats. Or something else. But for the purpose of
this argument, one 400 T CE is thought to be able to deal with that pesky
Vargr Corsair that is thought to be out there, right?

Given that, I don't see why 10 ships should feel more or less protected
than 20 or 50 or 100.

>Jo feels this question can be answered by a ratio of 10:1; up to 4000 tons
>of vessel can be escorted by 400 tons of escort.

And I feel that it's not the number of ships escorted that's the crucial
question, it's the number of ships defended against.

>This is a balance of cost and protection.  One 400 ton trader cannot make
>enough money (usually) to justify the rental of an escort of its own,
>likewise, 40 traders will not feel protected by one escort. 

Why in the world(s) not?

>>If an escort force were big enough to protect 10 free traders, it would
>>IMO be big enough to protect 50 free traders.
> 
>But would 50 free traders pay for that protection?

Why shouldn't they?

>What value would they place on it?

2% of the cost of the escort force.

>How big a ship would be needed to satisfy the merchant captain's worries?

Enough to deal with the percieved threat.

>How does the escort's reputation figure in?

Into a question that has already been dealt with, since I postulated that
the force is thought sufficient to protect 10 ships.

>The numbers should work out thus;

[Long analysis deleted.]
 
>I think that's non-linear enough to keep Hans happy.

Is that a crack? I'm afraid I didn't get it ;-). Anyway, I didn't go through
your analysis so thoroughly, because I feel it is based on a false premise.
Instead of working out how much a given number of merchants could afford,
you should work out the size of the threat and the propabilities of falling
afoul of it, work out how much it would cost to guard against the threat,
and then see how many ships would be needed before they could afford to pay
the cost. That would be the minimum size of a convoy. The maximum size of
a convoy would depend on how much loss the individual merchants would
suffer while waiting for a convoy to assemble.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 09:33:40 -0500 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: MT question: Prismatic aerosol

>The Trepida was originally designed for MegaTraveller.  Under those rules, a
>sandcaster can also be thought of as a giant shotgun; there's a table in the
>combat rules converting starship weapons for use as heavy weapons against
>vehicles and people.
>
>  -- Steve Bonneville

But the Trepida's sandcaster is a different beast than a starship
sandcaster -- it is listed under a separate entry in the Ref's Manual
vehicle design sequence. IIRC, it is a smaller version that the starship
device. Oh, and it is definitely considered a defensive device -- it's
listed in the Trepida's stats under Def.

Ciao,


Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 09:36:49 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Power Distribution

I've been reading previous posts to the TML re: converting plasma
energy to electricity and it seems that two ways of doing so
without using heated water are thermionic diodes and direct
conversion into mechanical energy.

This leads me to three questions:
1) How is the plasma energy converted to mechanical energy?
2) Of the two methods mentioned above, which is more effective?
3) How much volume does the most effective means require?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 17:01:23 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments

>I would suggest that the U.S. Tax Code in its "bare" form is the worst tax
>code in the world, except for all the others.

<snip>

>I have no intention of starting a "my country tax code is better than
>yours" thread (I don't know a lot about other country's tax codes) I just
>wanted to point out the good things about the so called "progressive" tax
>system we have here.

If I were to start a "my country tax code is better than yours" thread I'd
do exactly like you. The post had nothing to do with Traveller and (IMNSHO)
lacked other content as well.

OT Traveller taxation: I take it that each system is taxed based on
poulation/tech level asessments by IISS and performed by Imperial nobility.
The Domain Archduke sets the taxlevel for his Domains sectors, the sector
Duke sets fills this by setting the taxlevel for each individual subsector
and the subsector Counts(?) sets each individual systems taxlevel which the
individual system Noble (Baron, Marquis or Count) has to collect.

There is a lot of political squabbling at the subsector level where
representatives try to lower their share by downplaying TL advances, fiddle
with the census numbers etc.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:18:46 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Regency Book

The Regency book is a great compliation and extension of Trav and Megatrav
materials. It's useful for a non-TNE campaign too. I found it a most
excellent reference for my bits of the GURPS Marches book - which,
incidentally is out soon, and being set in 1120, has all the most useful
bits of the Regency book without any of the TNE materials. I personally
think that the GURPS book will be an excellent reference for any campaign.
I'm already using it in mine.

But then I'm biased.

As for this business of sniping at GURPS fans... come now. Is this going to
be yet another subdivision? Will the hardcore welcome the TNEers back into
the fold in return for their support against the GURPS players? Perhaps we
should make an alliance with the Communist insurgents over there....
different ideology but hey... at least they're not GURPSers.

Isn't this getting too silly for words? I mean, WHO CARES which version of
Traveller we play? It's Traveller: SF adventure in the Far Future,
Remember? Not 'endless arguments about which edition of the classic rules
is the definitive version'. 

I'd love a Unified Traveller Theory... but there's not going to be one
until about TL 12. Until then, I welcome any and all versions of the game.
You can play almost anything with Traveller - that's what makes it such a
great game. I DON'T CARE which rules are used.

All this internal bickering and pretending to shoot one another simply
makes matters worse & breeds ill-feeling. I just use the bits I want and
disregard the rest. Or more likely; buy those bits too to mine them for
ideas.

A little mutual respect would be a fine thing.

MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:37:11 +0100
From: "Buston, John" <john.buston@eds.com>
Subject: Where can I find the errata for FFS2?

Anyone know this?  Thanks in advance.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 08:48:53 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Marches Sourcebook

>>Dammit!  I was sighting in...  You stole my shot.  <g>
>>
>>Gary
>
>This is interesting, considering the venomous attacks that occured on the
>version of Traveller that you take your name from. I supported TNE
>then, and
>I still support anyone's right to enjoy whatever version of Traveller they
>choose.
>
>Allen
>
>

Here here!  This kind of posting is a little less than juvenile.  There are
a lot of us eagerly awaiting GURPS Traveller, and I'm sure I don't
appreciate adolescent "gun noises" directed at me because someone else can't
deal with it.



Brian (avid Traveller AND GURPS player)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 09:06:23 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Ongoing discussion on Gurps: Traveller

>
>	The main problems between GURPS and Traveller are two. First, that
>GURPS: Space uses a setting with tachyonic communications,

No, it doesn't.  GURPS Space mentions FTL Communication as an option when
the GM is designing his universe.  Just as you choose what type of FTL drive
your campaign uses, you can also choose whether or not to use FTL Commo, and
how fast/reliable it is.  In the case of Traveller, we won't see FTL Commo.
It's just that easy.

Brian

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 12:28:24 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Marches Sourcebook 

At 12:49 AM 5/19/98 -0400, you wrote:
>I have no illusions about changing your mind about anything. but to say
>"GURPS Traveller is not Traveller" is as annoying to me as saying "TNE is
>not Traveller". It may not be Traveller to YOU, but it is to me. And there
>are other people on this list running Traveller in other game systems (right
>Doug?) is what they do "not Traveller"? Who are you to decide what is and is
>not Traveller? Decide for yourself, yes, but not for me.


Regarding using Traveller in other game systems...I am running a Morrow
Project Campaign using Traveller design rules for vehicles, and some
encounters.  It fits for me.

Regarding Gurps: Traveller.  I say more power to to them. While I have
never played Gurps, I know people who have and have seen the product.  It
was mentioned earlier that SJG supports its games, and that is exactly what
is needed.  GDW supported the game too, but since MT focused mainly on
background and not on individual adventures that were playable.  The
majority of the GDW published adventures in the MT/TNE settings placed too
much importance on the players actions with regard to the events on the
macro level.  

IMO, I would love to see a return to the LBB style adventures.

Later,

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 09:29:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: BATF...

In Traveller-digest V1998 #498, Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@glasscity.net>
writes:

> >  > hey, this sounds like the US IRS!!!!!
> >  
> >  More like BATF.
> >  
> >  Keven >>
> > 
> > i thought the BATF was the IRS eilte strike team....  
> 
> Naw.  IRS is the tax collectors.  BATF is Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, & 
> Firearms.  2 different outfits, 2 different focuses.  BATF goes after 
> smugglers who don't pay their taxes on their booze & tobacco and people 
> running illegal guns in & out of the country.

While this is still the official charter of the BATF, they spend most
of their time hassling legal firearms owners than anything else.  I speak
from experience. :^(

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting *  shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
       "Where am I... and what am I doing in this handbasket?"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 12:32:15 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments

Anders said;
>If I were to start a "my country tax code is better than yours" thread I'd
>do exactly like you. The post had nothing to do with Traveller and (IMNSHO)
>lacked other content as well.

No need to be snippy.

Hmm, Perhaps the travness was slim.  I will try to refrain from posting
untraveller stuff in the future.  I have, however, posted a lot of On Topic
trav stuff to balance my occasional forays.  I also feel that there was
sufficient content of a useful nature, and your comment is spurious.  There
was certainly more than your post contained.

I did *not* intend to start a "my country tax code is better than yours"
thread, though, only to respond to a statement that was (IMO) not terribly
smart about charging everyone exactly the same amount of money for a tax.

In fact you're own country (Sweden) as I understand it, pays huge taxes
(relatively speaking) but also receives much better-and more
egalatarian-services in return than the U.S.  Of course, with one of the
highest per-capita incomes in Europe, you are a bit ahead of the game.

>OT Traveller taxation: I take it that each system is taxed based on
>poulation/tech level asessments by IISS and performed by Imperial nobility.
>The Domain Archduke sets the taxlevel for his Domains sectors, the sector
>Duke sets fills this by setting the taxlevel for each individual subsector
>and the subsector Counts(?) sets each individual systems taxlevel which the
>individual system Noble (Baron, Marquis or Count) has to collect.

Wait, is the tax level set by formula or by fiat of the nobility?  Is a
system taxed by every level of nobility?  It looks like you mean to say
that each level of dominion taxes the level below it, but doesn't care how
that tax is collected within the dominion.

>There is a lot of political squabbling at the subsector level where
>representatives try to lower their share by downplaying TL advances, fiddle
>with the census numbers etc.

Perhaps we have found the key to why TL advance seems so slow in the
Imperium!  They are all retarding development in order to avoid higher
taxes!  I can just see the crowds roiling through the streets to the
University to tear it down to drop them another tech level, giving them all
a 10% tax cut.

Pete

Oh, wait, I have more non-trav lines than trav lines.  Allow me to quote
some Vilani Opera (free translation!);

"Alas the Kikkophan of my dreams has gone to her death.
I can no longer face the Fretop of life's chores
The ennui hits my heart! it stabs the Utyp of forgetfulness
Spinging forth fruntily my Desperate Gardenia, Truly."

"Gogyon of destiny, flee!
Go no more into thy Deepest darkness.
Heed my warning, oh foul noitrop and leave
to lift another time, in another place of my choosing."

- -Death of Gerippa, Act III scene 2

There, that should do it.


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 12:32:26 -0400
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Ongoing discussion on Gurps: Traveller

The main problems between GURPS and Traveller are two. First, that
GURPS: Space uses a setting with tachyonic communications, but I am
sure that Loren will make sure that this is specifically ruled out in
the book. Second, that the TL progression is very different in Gurps
(see UIltratech, e.g.). But, I am also sure that the G:T book will
say something about it... gravitic technology is far more advanced in
Gurps than in Traveller, and the other way around with energy
weapons, true... but it only takes a short chapter on "Technology" to
fix it once and for all, applying to all future "Gurps Traveller:
whatever" books.

    having seen what exists at this point of the manuscript, I can assure
you that there is no FTL radio, jump drives use fuel, lasers use backpacks
and all that good stuff :) Loren knows Traveller; he would not let them
change it too much. Even though, in my opinion, some things NEED a bit of
alteration because the state of the art in SF has kinda passed Traveller by
in some areas...but then, that might be part of the "charm". Power plants
have changed slightly; they use the GURPS model of a plant that doesn't need
refuelling for 200 years. Power plant fuel is such an infintessimal part of
the total fuel on a Traveller starship that this makes zero difference. and
they are using GURPS computer rules, which are MUCH better than what
Traveller has had in the past, that I can see. Those are the only
significant changes as I have seen in my recent perusal of the manuscript.

Allen

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #500
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 19 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 501



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Marches Sourcebook 
RE: Marches Sourcebook 
Re: Where can I find the errata for FFS2?
Re: Escort tonnage
Re: Marches Sourcebook 
Re: Imperial Tax Policy
Re: MT question: Prismatic aerosol
Re: Imperial Tax Policy 
Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments
Re: Imperial Tax Policy
Re: MT question: Prismatic aerosol
Re: Regency Book
Re: MT question: Prismatic aerosol
Re: MT question: Prismatic aerosol
Re: Regency Book 
Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments
Re: Escort tonnage
Imperial Tax code
Re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 12:35:20 -0400
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Marches Sourcebook 

I apologize for what was probably a bit of defensiveness about the recent
comments. I lived through the TML Split over TNE, and it bothered me a lot.
I just don't want to see that happen again.

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 10:17:52 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Marches Sourcebook 

>I apologize for what was probably a bit of defensiveness about the recent
>comments. I lived through the TML Split over TNE, and it bothered me a lot.
>I just don't want to see that happen again.
>
>Allen
>
>

Totally understandable.  Unfortunately, in this instance it isn't even as
intelligent a discussion as "Should GDW have done what it did to the
Traveller universe/rules in TNE."  Rather, it sounds like people from
"Android's Dungeon and Comic Shop" making rude comments about people who
play a game system they don't happen to like, going about it in a childish
manner, and then saying, "Hey, relax!  My little <g> or :) makes anything I
say ok!"

One of the reasons I am drawn to this list is the high level of
intelligence/education present (hey, the same reasons I love Traveller!).
On many occassions I've tried to convince my non-rpger friends that people
who play rpgs/ccgs aren't all socially retarded.  "Shoot the GURPS
enthusiasts" posts make me rethink my own position . . .

Brian (sans coffee) Mays

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 13:57:36 -0400
From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Where can I find the errata for FFS2?

Buston, John wrote:

>Anyone know this?  Thanks in advance.

The FF&S2 errata list can be found on either Joe Heck's web pages
(http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/index.html) or on my web pages,
the Draconis Cluster Traveller Web pages
(http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/trav.htm).

Chris Cox
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 13:55:18 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage

>Peter H. Brenton writes:
>
>>>I would think that the size of an escort force would depend on the threat
>>>it is guarding against and not the size of the convoy. Though I suppose
>>>there would be some correlation (fatter targets attract more predators),
>>>the correlation would be far from linear.
>>
>>Well, Imagine if you will an area in which it is fairly likely that an
>>unescorted vessel will be attacked.
>Well, first of all this deals with private, hired escort ships whereas I was
>under the impression that Jo was talking about the naval assets of the
>Imperium compared to the merchant fleet of same. The two cannot be compared.

A very good point.  I'm afraid I am guilty of jumping subjects.  The
original discussion awhile back related to merchant escorts, this is, as
you point out, only vaguely related to tonnage of military vs. merchant
vessels, if at all.  I am attampting to twist the subject matter to address
a question I need to answer in the near future in a continuin campaign.

>>The question is, how many ships will feel safe escorted by one 400 ton CE?
>
>Just to avoid a potential digression: We're assuming that one 400 T CE is
>thought sufficient to deal with the potential threat, right?[snip]
> But for the purpose of
>this argument, one 400 T CE is thought to be able to deal with that pesky
>Vargr Corsair that is thought to be out there, right?

Essentially, but see below.

[snip]
>>Jo feels this question can be answered by a ratio of 10:1; up to 4000 tons
>>of vessel can be escorted by 400 tons of escort.

As Jo pointed out in another post, he did not suggest this, only included
the idea of someone else's in his post.

>And I feel that it's not the number of ships escorted that's the crucial
>question, it's the number of ships defended against.

This piece of information is generally not that readily available.  A guess
can be made in some circumstances, but in practice there will not be a lot
of reliability to that guess usually.

In our recent tradewar scenario the players knew generally what type of
force is employed by the opposing party.  They did not know what extra
forces might be hired, bought, or imported from a distance.  When the ship
that made them want to run away finally came, it was not on the list of
"expected vessels".

In the case of traders on the Vargr border there will be a range of
possibilities that need to be protected against.

>>This is a balance of cost and protection.  One 400 ton trader cannot make
>>enough money (usually) to justify the rental of an escort of its own,
>>likewise, 40 traders will not feel protected by one escort.
>
>Why in the world(s) not?
>
>>>If an escort force were big enough to protect 10 free traders, it would
>>>IMO be big enough to protect 50 free traders.
>>
>>But would 50 free traders pay for that protection?
>
>Why shouldn't they?

I think that a merchant would expect a certain amount of value for his
money.  By Value I mean the ability of the escort to protect his ship.
That ability seems to me to be diluted when more ships are being protected.


The threat being unknown, or imperfectly known, a larger group of
'non-combatants' will be harder to protect than a smaller group since they
will present a larger target, worthy of more 'pirate' tonnage to capture.

>>What value would they place on it?
>
>2% of the cost of the escort force.

Precisely, yet perhaps they are willing to pay more than that figure for
protection.  If they can get *better* protection (meaning a higher ratio of
escort tonnage to merchant tonnage) they will probably buy it (if
available).
[snip]

>>I think that's non-linear enough to keep Hans happy.
>
>Is that a crack? I'm afraid I didn't get it ;-).

It was just a reference to a comment you made previously, which inspired me
to some extent, nothing meant by it.  Just (attempting at) being funny.

> Anyway, I didn't go through
>your analysis so thoroughly, because I feel it is based on a false premise.
>Instead of working out how much a given number of merchants could afford,
>you should work out the size of the threat and the propabilities of falling
>afoul of it, work out how much it would cost to guard against the threat,
>and then see how many ships would be needed before they could afford to pay
>the cost. That would be the minimum size of a convoy. The maximum size of
>a convoy would depend on how much loss the individual merchants would
>suffer while waiting for a convoy to assemble.

Your logic is sound, but I still think another maximum on convoy size is a
desired ration of escort tonnage to merchant tonnage, as I explained above.
This may not come into play in backwaters since, as you point out,
merchants will pay more rather than wait for a big enough convoy to escort.
That, however, depends on your view of how much shipping occurs in the
Imperium.  A topic I am not ready to discuss right now.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 13:57:53 -0400
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Marches Sourcebook 

>One of the reasons I am drawn to this list is the high level of
>intelligence/education present (hey, the same reasons I love Traveller!).
>On many occassions I've tried to convince my non-rpger friends that people
>who play rpgs/ccgs aren't all socially retarded.  "Shoot the GURPS
>enthusiasts" posts make me rethink my own position . . .


There are some fairly intelligent folks here. We just have a problem with
defensiveness on occasion. All of like Traveller, in whatever form. All of
us were fairly dissapointed with the most recent attempt. So we tend to
defend rather zealously our particular favorite version, because the one
really good version that will unify us all has not come along yet. maybe
T4.1 will do that (although at this point, it should just be called T5), but
somehow I'm not optimistic.
    My ultimate version of Traveller would be closer to MT than T4, with
perhaps a better task system (the MT one is good but a bit overly complex),
a ship design system closer to QSDS than FF&S, ship combat rules more like
RPSCS, more skills for PC's than MT allowed (I thought T4 had that just
about right), No JOT skill (not needed when more skills and a default system
are used), and a straightforward combat system using an Initiative stat. I
would also like to see hit points separated completely from attributes, but
based on them. hit points equal STR +DEX +END, but do not reduce those stats
per se.  Vehicle Design should be as straightforward as possible. I'm
leaning more in the direction of a system that worries more about game stats
than "real world" values; Volume rated in "spaces" where each space equals a
displacement ton on starship scale, something less in vehicle scale, and you
just plug stuff in to fill the spaces. Give the hard numbers for the
gearheads, but let me design stuff easily and quickly.  Put templates for
playing aliens IN the main book, not make me wait for a supplement that
never shows up. And finally, put two character creation systems in the book;
the random version for those who like that, and a point based build system
for people like me; I can still use the random system to create the history,
but I want full and complete control over what skills I have, what my
attributes are, etc.
    That would be the Traveller that would pull me back from any other
version I'm playing.

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 19:03:28 +0100
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Re: Imperial Tax Policy

Ian or Katts wrote:
> I appreciate what people are saying that taxing interstellar
> trade when it goes thru starports would be simpler and easier,
> and I even agree, but ...
>
> Taxing interestellar trade will tend to discourage it, and the
> Imperium exists to encourage interstellar trade. Taxing planets
> wont have this effect (but it will have other problems).
>

To clarify: what I was suggesting was a  primary  tax  levied  on
planets but with the amount due based on trade volume.  Not a tax
on the traders themselves.  It is up to the local planet's rulers
to find a way to fund this (local income tax, sales  tax,  excise
tax, etc).  This gives an independent measure of a world's wealth
free of tampering (such as  by  hidden  populations,  fudged  GDP
figures, etc).

Yes, it might encourage a planet to try and limit off-world trade
but only  if  that  tax  burden  is  greater  than  the  cost  of
isolation.  I haven't done the figures but I suspect the  average
planet's Imperial tax burden to be quite light ...  basically  it
has to cover the cost of the  Imperial  Navy,  the  IISS,  and  a
relatively small  (if  dispersed)  Imperial  buracracy.  Starport
facilities  are  covered  under  berthing  costs  (plus  a  token
Starport Tax) and so are self-sufficient.  The Imperial  Army  is
composed of the off-world contingent of planetary armies  and  so
is not considered in  the  _Imperial_  tax  burden,  neither  are
planetary navies.

> The next question is what legal rights do Dukes, Barons etc
> have ? Does your Subsector Duke have the legal right to tax
> a world ? Saying 'yes' gets you a truly feudal Imperium, but
> it seems to violate the 'Imperium doesnt run worlds' policy.

Sector and Subsector Dukes must have limited tax powers  ...  the
Fourth Frontier War was fought and concluded before  instructions
from Core could be received.  In the  event  of  wars,  etc,  the
local Imperial government must be able to raise additional  funds
as necessary.  Also, if a world suffers plague or other disaster,
then the local Imperial government must be  able  to  respond  by
temporarily easing an afflicted  world's  tax  burden.  This  may
mean just waiving taxes on humanitarian aid, or it may  mean  tax
breaks while the planet's economy is being  rebuilt  (depends  on
the generosity of the local nobility).  The Imperium has a policy
of not running a world's  _domestic  situation_,  but  its  trade
relations with other worlds is another matter.

> The final question is what infrastructure exists to support
> Imperial Tax policy. Is it a job for the Imperial Nobility,
> or are there Imperial Ministry of Justice Strike Audit Teams

Imperial Tax Policy is set by the  Emperor  in  broad  terms  and
worked out in detail by the Sector  and  Subsector  Dukes.  Trade
volumes are monitored by  each  starport's  local  SPA  (Starport
Authority) which files reports to  the  Nobility  via  the  IISS.
Smuggling is monitored by each starport's local SPA, backed up by
the IISS and the Imperial  Navy.  Anti-smuggling  operations  are
carried out by the Imperial Navy  units,  and  (in  the  case  of
corruption by the planetary  government)  the  JSB  (Ministry  of
Justice, Special Branch).  Survivors are prosecuted  by  the  MoJ
(Ministry of Justice) in Subsector Courts.

At least in theory.  In reality  Imperial  Tax  Policy  would  by
inconsistantly applied across the  Imperium.  Some  nobles  would
squeeze every last credit  out  of  their  worlds,  whilst  other
nobles  take  a  more  enlightened  view  ...  encouraging  local
economies to thrive.  Meanwhile, anti-smuggling operations  would
be complicated by inter-agency rivalry.

Comments?

Regards PLST
<Its the end of the day and I can't think of a tag line>
___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 09:44:58 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: MT question: Prismatic aerosol

On Tue, 19 May 1998 01:10:47 -0500 "Joseph R. Dietrich"
<yikes@evansville.net> writes:
>I was going through my MT books tonight, and I came across prismatic
>aerosol. It's listed in vehicle descriptions and on the vehicle design
>table, but not a word in the text I can find. So I ask you, assembled 
>ladies
>and gentelmen.
>
>What is it?
>
>What is anti-laser aerosol, for that matter?

IMTU, his is a chemical mist that will easily float in an atmosphere,
acting like sand.

>
>And what is the benefit of a sandcaster on a vehicle like a Trepida 
>grav
>tank? Can it help ablate energy weapons fire, and if so, by how much.
>

The problem with sand, is it wont float in an atmosphere, thus, aerosols.
 FFS2 doesn't mention it, so I'm having to work up numbers on my own.


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
CEO and Founder, Diasporan Industries, Inc.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
Traveller Geek Code tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+)
pi+ he++ merc++ dt+++
GM:  The Scattered Worlds Traveller PbEM

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 14:45:37 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Tax Policy 

> Ob-Trav:  When your players get caught sneaking around at night on a *high*
> law level planet with Battle Dress, Fusion Weapons, and mini-TAC missles,
> just have 'em flash a badge and say, "We are with the Imperial Department
> of Revenue."

Or, in Zira Sirkaa, "Pure Food and Drug Bureau!"

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 12:13:09 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments

Peter Newman wrote:
> 
> Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote
> 
> > I've yet to see a 'national sales tax' scheme proposed (at least here
> > in the US) that did a whole lot to eliminate, for instance, the
> > problems we have here in the US with taxes. (unequal tax burdens, a
> > code riddled with loopholes, and lots of tax evasion) A straight,
> > evenly applied sales tax on _everything_ no exceptions, would work,
> > but hell, so would a straight, evenly applied income tax.
> 
> As would a per person head tax.  Everyone who lives in the United States
> would have to pay Y thousand dollars in tax.  Anyone without a tax stamp
> would be relatively easily identifiable & sanctionable.

Ahh, but then you get into the real sticking point of Poll taxes (which
is what this is). This is utterly skewed to benefit the rich at the cost
of everyone else. 

I make minimum wage, supporting a family of three, for instance.  My
proportion of taxes are going to be much higher than a single CEO
making, say, 5 or 6 mill a year. Plus, that CEO is reaping far more
benefit from the tax burden on us all than the poor schlep making
minimum wage. After all the CEO will benefit much more from tax-funded
road improvements, transportation subsidies, diplomatic relations, etc,
etc. This is exactly the point and reasoning for the progressive income
tax: wealthier people benefit more from government spending than do the
poor. Politicians and demagogues rant and rave over 'welfare queens' ,
but Archer-Daniels-Midland, and it's stockholders, has probably gained
more from government givaways than any thousand or so welfare
recipients...(for the non-US folk on the list, ADM is an agribusiness
megacorp; hell, they probably do a lot of business in your country too.)

They make enormous donations to both political parties, all tax
deductible, and recieve, astonshingly, and purely by coincidence,
enormous government contracts and subsidies. Who'da thunk it??

oB Trav: The PC's are contracted to ferry a Corporate executive to a
certain planet/country/whatever to deliver a large brib ^h^h^h campaign
contribution to the ruler in order to gain exclusive access to one
market or resource.

Great hilarity ensues when the PC's and executive arrive, greet 'El
Presidente Supremo por Vida' and are interrupted by (GM's choice)]

1) A palace coup
2) A palace coup instigated by a rival firm
3) A general uprising
4) A general uprising lead by mercs and operatives from the rival firm.

20 or 30 heavily armed men in ragtag unbiforms burst in, and drag EPSV
off screaming, and the PC's and Excecutive VP Uncle Duke are hauled off
and put up against the wall along with the executives from the Sirus
Elevator Corporation.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 12:18:40 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Tax Policy

Mark Urbin wrote:
>
> Ob-Trav:  When your players get caught sneaking around at night on a *high*
> law level planet with Battle Dress, Fusion Weapons, and mini-TAC missles,
> just have 'em flash a badge and say, "We are with the Imperial Department
> of Revenue."

Naaah...anyone would _know_ they were lying...all an Imperial Revenue
agent needs is a briefcase and hand comp.

The slavering fangs, faint smell of brimstone and pointy tail tend to
give them away, as well.:-)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 12:14:53 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: MT question: Prismatic aerosol

Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
> 
> >> I was going through my MT books tonight, and I came across prismatic
> >> aerosol. ...
> 
> <snip>
> 
> >>What is it?
> >
> >It's a laser defense.  What it does is, when you spray it in the air, it
> >disperses laser bolts shot at you.
> >
> >> What is anti-laser aerosol, for that matter?
> >
> >See above.
> 
> So why are there seperate entries for prismatic and anti-laser aerosols in
> the Ref's Manual if they both do the same thing?
> 

As I recall, the anti-laser aerosol was a fairly low tech item.  It is only
effective against a specific range of laser frequencies.  Prismatic aerosol is
much high tech and has a correspondingly greater wavelegth coverage.  (as a
caveat, this is from memory - I don't have my books with me.)
 
> A few seconds? So how does the Trepid (for example) know when to throw up
> the cloud? I mean, incoming fire is at the speed of light (in the case of
> lasers), so any incoming attack will hit well before you can throw up the
> screen. Or is believable that the sand can be maintained in a cloud through
> some means (magnetically???) even in the face of gravity and atmosphere
> efects?

Before the full strength beam comes, there will be the ranging/targeting laser. 
This is detectable, much like an alarm in a military aircraft cockpit when
sensors pick up a Fire Control radar, as opposed to a search radar.  

> More importantly (for my purposes, anyway) what are the *MT game effects*
> of prismatic aerosol, anti-laser aerosol, and sandcasters on small
> vehicles?

Don't remember the specifics...sorry.  :(  I believe that it negates light (i.e.
man portable) lasers for it's duration, and introduces a significant reduction
in damage in others, but Striker/Striker II would probably be the source you
want to refer to, however.

douglas
- -- 
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 15:56:59 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Regency Book

The canon subdivisions are starting to remind me of an Illuminati expansion
(hm...did Steve and the Bavarians plan this?) :-)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 15:25:05 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Re: MT question: Prismatic aerosol

I believe "prismatic aerosol" is a higher-TL version of the
anti-laser aerosol. It's called prismatic because it's
effective against more than one laser frequency.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 13:51:32 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: MT question: Prismatic aerosol

Douglas Glatz wrote:
> 
> Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
> >
> > >> I was going through my MT books tonight, and I came across prismatic
> > >> aerosol. ...
> >
> > <snip>
> >

> > So why are there seperate entries for prismatic and anti-laser aerosols in
> > the Ref's Manual if they both do the same thing?
> >
> 
> As I recall, the anti-laser aerosol was a fairly low tech item.  It is only
> effective against a specific range of laser frequencies.  Prismatic aerosol is
> much high tech and has a correspondingly greater wavelegth coverage.  (as a
> caveat, this is from memory - I don't have my books with me.)
> 

Anti-laser aerosol is a lower tech item, something like talcum in a can,
which makes an opaque cloud that absorbs the energy from lasers. The
disadvantage, of course, is that it's opaque to the visual range as
well. In action it would act like a dense smoke screen between you and
the firing laser.

Prismatic aerosols are a higher tech version of the above that
selectively absorb the laser wavelengths, leaving the lower (visible)
wavelengths along, thus allowing you to still see through it.

That's the difference.



- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:25:23 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Regency Book 

> The canon subdivisions are starting to remind me of an Illuminati expansion
> (hm...did Steve and the Bavarians plan this?) :-)

Fnord.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 15:33:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: Alan Peery <peery@io.com>
Subject: Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments

On Tue, 19 May 1998, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Peter Newman wrote:
> Great hilarity ensues when the PC's and executive arrive, greet 'El
> Presidente Supremo por Vida' and are interrupted by (GM's choice)]
> 

5) A squad of 30 reporters carrying everything from pencil and paper
   to TL 15 HoloCorders descend, bringing questions about previous
   donations, connections to local Solomani sympathizers, and 
   queries about the "suspiciously high transport costs" in the 
   lastest quarterly report from corporation.

   Of course, this is a bit more fun if the characters are already on
   the run, and trying to keep a low profile.  AWOL Marines tend
   to get particularly nervous in these scenarios...

Alan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 08:46:13 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> But for the purpose of this argument, one 400 T CE is
> thought to be able to deal with that pesky Vargr
> Corsair that is thought to be out there, right? 

> Given that, I don't see why 10 ships should feel more or
> less protected than 20 or 50 or 100.

I think it's a matter of pirate economics. If there are 
lots of targets, it's worth getting a bunch of ships 
together and attacking, so you need more defenders. If 
there are only a few targets, then although you could 
overwhelm them with a bunch of pirate ships, the outlay 
would not be repaid by the expected rewards.

At least that's the theory.

In a TU where the ships are worth as much as they are in 
CT, and assuming you can re-register them and sell them for 
a profit of say 30% of their original worth, then the ships are the 
primary targets, and getting a dozen pirate ships together 
to take out a single fat trader might even be worthwhile.

This is probably more true for Vargr, since all they gotta 
do is dodge the patrols on the way in and out, they don't 
actually have to live there.

Say 10 400t Vargr "corsairs" take a 400t Fat trader (worth 
about 100Mcr) get a profit of ~30Mcr, or 3Mcr each. How 
long can you pay your operating expenses with that?

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:52:47 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Imperial Tax code

Anders bangs out:
>If I were to start a "my country tax code is better than yours" thread I'd
>do exactly like you. The post had nothing to do with Traveller and (IMNSHO)
>lacked other content as well.

   Gee Anders, somebody slip you what most American's think is coffee this
morning?

Ob Trav:  I always like the tax code write up I read in some old Traveller
publication.
No taxes, just lotteries.  Lot's of them.  Daily lotteries, weeklys,
holiday ones, etc.
Good citizens played several every day.  They would buy a week's worth of
daily's at a time.
The lottery tickets came with necklace loops.  You wore your color coded
lottery tickets out in public.
The more affluent citizens were expected to buy additional, more expensive
tickets.
If you didn't have an up to date set of tickets, you were socially snubbed.
 You couldn't get your waitress to take your order, taxi's wouldn't pick
you up, etc.   Player's landing on planet would have to shell out cash for
the right tickets before they could do any business.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
A well-educated electorate being necessary to the prosperity of a free 
state, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be 
infringed.  -- http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:41:10 +0100
From: "Buston, John" <john.buston@eds.com>
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)

>It makes perfect sense; a 400 ton Close Escort to shepherd a few fat 
>traders, they jump together, arriving within a few hours of one another at
the
>destination.

Due to the vagaries of jump space they could arrive as much as two days
apart.

Aside: If your PC were in that convoy you just know that the GM is going
to have the escort drop out of jump last "to add to the tension" :)

So the escort would have to jump 2 days before the convoy to be sure of
being there to protect the first ship out of jump. 

And then of course any other trader who was aware of the agreement could
tag along without paying his escort dues. A free loader could jump a few
hours later and still benefit from the escort. Though he runs the risk
of then being taken for a pirate.

IMO an escort would only be of use when jumping to worlds where you
could not trust the system defense boats (SDBs) of the target worlds
(see below).


Has anyone done an analysis of the logistics of piracy/raiding? 

Case 1: Piracy on worlds with no (trustworthy) SDBs.

In this case the pirates hide out on the planet itself and intercept
close to the planet. As long as they have a higher G drive than you do
then they have you. They may have you anyway if you have to dip for
fuel.

So you need an escort for the entirety of the trading mission. You need
to stay together too, or else they can pick you off when you are
separated from the escort.

Case 2: Piracy on worlds with an imperial starport and SDBs.

The trader jumps to the target world and comes out as near to the 100
diameter point as possible. At 1G acceleration, with turnover, it runs
for the highport and makes it in just over six hours, on average.
Quicker if an excellent jump exit roll was made, slower if a poor jump
exit roll was made.

A 6G SDB, stationed at the highport or in orbit, can reach any point
within 100 diameters in 2.6 hours, with turnover. The SDB can do it in
half this time, 1.3 hours, if it does so without turnover, say to make a
strafing run. For a 3G SDB the times are under 4 and 2 hours
respectively.

Note: hiding out beyond the 100 diameter point means that you will be on
average 140 diameters from any jump point (using Pythagoras). 

A pirate hiding out beyond the 100 diameter limit has to intercept,
disable, and then match vectors with, any trader it wants to rob. It
must then rob cargo, etc., and get back out to 100 diameters and jump.
It must be able to do this before any military craft can intercept (i.e.
2 hours max.). Anyone lurking within the 100 diameter sphere is asking
for a visit from Cleons Finest.

To raid a ship jumping into the system:

You need a high G ship (at least 3G) and be within about 20 diameters of
the incoming ships jump exit to stand any chance of success (i.e. about
one in 250 incoming traders would be within range). Also the incoming
ship would have to have a relatively low exit velocity and have only a
1G drive - otherwise you play catch up for too long.  All in all not
very practical.

To raid a ship leaving the system:

You are going to find it very difficult to match velocities as a leaving
ship doesn't need to bother with turnover. A 1G ship can reach 100
diameters in around 3 hours without turnover, and is going to be going
very fast at the 100 diameter point (around 80 000 km/h). 

So there is very little hope of normal interception - and even if there
was the trader would probably jump inside 100 diameters rather than risk
capture. Your only hope is to remain hidden at the 100 diameter point.
Then when he is within laser range disable him with the first salvo
before he can jump. Ordinarily you would have to be very lucky to be in
the right place to achieve this. Much less than one in 250 ships will
come close enough for this. So only really practical if you have a
corrupt space traffic controller assigning the exit vectors. And the
authorities will assume this has happened afterwards and be grilling the
controller.

Even if you manage to disable the ship you then have to match velocities
and chase the ship down for nearly two hours (at 3G), unload it and then
jump immediately. 

Conclusion:

All this leads me to conclude that an extra G of maneuver drive is much
more useful than a second laser turret. Perhaps even more useful than
your first turret? A high G drive makes you much less attractive to
potential molesters than does a standard turret.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #501
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 20 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 502



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fleshpots and Marketing...
Re: Marches Sourcebook
Re: Imperial Tax Policy
Re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)
RE: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)
Re: Fleshpots and Marketing...
Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments
Re: MT question: Prismatic aerosol
Piracy and good neighbors
Re: Piracy and good neighbors
Re: Piracy and good neighbors
Re: Regency Book
Re: Fleshpots and Marketing...
Inside a firing spinal mount
Re: Fleshpots and Marketing...
Re: Inside a firing spinal mount
Re: Marc Miller's T4 
Spare Regency Sourcebook
Re: Horror and otherrelated topics...
Re: Traveller News Group?
Re: Fleshpots and Marketing...
Re: Fleshpots and Marketing...
Re: Marches Sourcebook
Self Sustaining life support.
Re: Drop tank system development
Zoetec equipment on the web?
Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments (tending towards off topicness)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:41:48 +0100
From: "Buston, John" <john.buston@eds.com>
Subject: Re: Fleshpots and Marketing...

>Cloning would still require raw biomass to build from.  If you're going to store
>biomass, you may as well extrude processed biomass into tubes, flats, or
>various other shapes and add flavouring, color and texture.

Except that you are getting your biomass for free, from the sanitary
system.

Just don't tell the passengers that this really is the same beef they
ate yesterday :)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:30:22 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Marches Sourcebook

Tue, 19 May 1998 04:51:13 -0400, "Keven R. Pittsinger"
<jamstar@glasscity.net>
> A 'one size fits all' gaming system just isn't my cuppa 
> tea, especially when I have to pick up the basic set and a bunch of expansion 
> rulebooks just to have a playable system.

Well, everyone has games they don't like and I won't presume to question
Keven's likes.  I will point out that you don't need a bunch of
expansion rulebooks to have playable system.  GURPS Traveller will be
play just fine with just the Basic rule book.  You could even just
down load the free version of GURPS Lite to start (I would't be suprised
if you could get by with just that for quite decent length of time).
Heck, I _wrote_ an article a few years back on GURPS Traveller that
only relied on two GURPS Space and GURPS Basic (and I didn't really
need space).  What I got out of space (weapons, starship design) will
be in the GURPS Travaller book.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 19:33:43 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Tax Policy

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Tax Policy


>Mark Urbin wrote:
>>
>> Ob-Trav:  When your players get caught sneaking around at night on a *high*
>> law level planet with Battle Dress, Fusion Weapons, and mini-TAC missles,
>> just have 'em flash a badge and say, "We are with the Imperial Department
>> of Revenue."
>
>Naaah...anyone would _know_ they were lying...all an Imperial Revenue
>agent needs is a briefcase and hand comp.
>
>The slavering fangs, faint smell of brimstone and pointy tail tend to
>give them away, as well.:-)
>
>Bruce Johnson
>
Haha, reminds me of a saying my sales manager had about customers.  They
never had money for a down payment and of course they could only spend x
dollars.  Her saying was "Thom go back out there and watch that customer, if
their lips are moving, they're lying."

Thom (The ex-car salesman) Harris

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 19:29:44 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)

[Analysis clipped]

Here's where piracy becomes "reasonable".  The Starport is on a moon of
a large gas giant.  This moon is very close to the GG, perhaps only a
few diameters out.  Pirates hide on a different moon/asteroid.  When a
starship passes by, they snatch it.  Maneuvering at high speeds through
the orbital masses of a gas giant is dangerous.  If you come in too
fast, you may not be able to escape the pull of the gas giant.  Then
you're really screwed.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:40:04 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)

>
>>It makes perfect sense; a 400 ton Close Escort to shepherd a few fat
>>traders, they jump together, arriving within a few hours of one another at
>the
>>destination.
>
>Due to the vagaries of jump space they could arrive as much as two days
>apart.
>

Actually, it IS possible to coordinate a jump so that the ships pop out
within hours/minutes of each other.  In one of the Traveller's Digests there
is an article explaining how this is possible.  If anyone is really
interested, I can look it up.

Brian

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 19:37:52 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Fleshpots and Marketing...

Buston, John wrote:

> >Cloning would still require raw biomass to build from.  If you're going to store
> >biomass, you may as well extrude processed biomass into tubes, flats, or
> >various other shapes and add flavouring, color and texture.
>
> Except that you are getting your biomass for free, from the sanitary
> system.
>
> Just don't tell the passengers that this really is the same beef they
> ate yesterday :)

  So, you're saying that you're recombining the CO2 and the rest of the fiber
back into carbohydrates. TNSTAFFL. Yes, this can be done.  But I believe its
called plant growth.  It requires moderately large tanks relative to the size
of the creature its supporting.  It does however refresh your air and could
provide you with vegetable biomatter.

This actually brings up the question.  Once you've got a biosystem going, how
much of a "garden" do you need to support one human indefinitely?  Including
carbon dioxide recycling and food.  Assume unlimited supply of energy (light)
and recycled water.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:42:10 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments

> It has been said that even a straightforward percentage of income (as
> opposed to the byzantine system of exemptions and deductions we have now -
> and the "progressive" tax chart) is, in fact, a "regressive" tax, meaning
> the burden on lower income people is greater-proportionally-than the burden
> on poeple with higher earnings.

The term "regressive" is sometimes used more politically than
accurately....
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:39:04 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: MT question: Prismatic aerosol

> From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
> > So why are there seperate entries for prismatic and anti-laser aerosols in
> > the Ref's Manual if they both do the same thing?
> > 
> 
> As I recall, the anti-laser aerosol was a fairly low tech item.  It is only
> effective against a specific range of laser frequencies.  Prismatic aerosol is
> much high tech and has a correspondingly greater wavelegth coverage.  (as a
> caveat, this is from memory - I don't have my books with me.)

As I recall -- and I don't have my books with me, either -- lasers
change to x-ray above TL 13, so prismatic aerosols are needed to disrupt
them.  (or something like that)

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 19:51:39 EDT
From: GypsyComet <GypsyComet@aol.com>
Subject: Piracy and good neighbors

All this talk about piracy (and, I'll admit, the last Seinfeld episode) brings
up a question. It is something I've been taking for granted throughout my many
years of playing Traveller.
  How many folks use a version of the Good Samaritan Law in space?  If a ship
(or whatever) sends a distress call, be it an SOS or Signal GK, is everyone
within rescue/response range obliged to do so?  Given Newtonian physics, where
do you draw the line for who should respond and who can afford to not bother?
Is this a local law, Imperial Law, or an unwritten Law of the Spacer?

GypsyComet
(happily providing the basis for another Traveller Geek Code entry)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 17:08:58 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Piracy and good neighbors

GypsyComet wrote:
> 
> All this talk about piracy (and, I'll admit, the last Seinfeld episode) brings
> up a question. It is something I've been taking for granted throughout my many
> years of playing Traveller.
>   How many folks use a version of the Good Samaritan Law in space?  If a ship
> (or whatever) sends a distress call, be it an SOS or Signal GK, is everyone
> within rescue/response range obliged to do so?  Given Newtonian physics, where
> do you draw the line for who should respond and who can afford to not bother?
> Is this a local law, Imperial Law, or an unwritten Law of the Spacer?
> 
> GypsyComet
> (happily providing the basis for another Traveller Geek Code entry)

IMTU, If you pick up a SOS/Mayday/Signal GK you must respond.  Until the
emergency is abated, your own ship is in peril, or a Naval/System Defense vessel
indicates that it has assumed control of the emergency.  By requiring all
vessels to respond, it prevents a pirate from signalling that it is responding
to the emergency.

Emergency signals are automatically entered in the ship log, and flagged. 
Subsequent actions are subject to review during routine ship's inspections.

This is mandated by Imperial Law, and is one of the reasons all ships are
'permitted' to have ship's weapons.

douglas


- -- 
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:07:40 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Piracy and good neighbors

GypsyComet wrote:

> All this talk about piracy (and, I'll admit, the last Seinfeld episode) brings
> up a question. It is something I've been taking for granted throughout my many
> years of playing Traveller.
>   How many folks use a version of the Good Samaritan Law in space?  If a ship
> (or whatever) sends a distress call, be it an SOS or Signal GK, is everyone
> within rescue/response range obliged to do so?  Given Newtonian physics, where
> do you draw the line for who should respond and who can afford to not bother?
> Is this a local law, Imperial Law, or an unwritten Law of the Spacer?

Its maritime law I believe.  Unless you work out the deal over the radio, anyone
responding may claim salvage rights.  That means that if you send out a request
for aid, respondants may claim your ship as payment.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 18:08:03 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Regency Book

>Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:18:46 +0100
>From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
>Subject: Regency Book
>
>The Regency book is a great compliation and extension of Trav and Megatrav
>materials. It's useful for a non-TNE campaign too. I found it a most
>excellent reference for my bits of the GURPS Marches book - which,
>incidentally is out soon, and being set in 1120, has all the most useful
>bits of the Regency book without any of the TNE materials. I personally
>think that the GURPS book will be an excellent reference for any campaign.
>I'm already using it in mine.
>
>But then I'm biased.
>

I have my own hobby-horse, which happens to be the Islands Clusters.  I've
had a campaign set there since TCS came out, but I only recently became
aware that the Regency sourcebook addressed the fate of those two subsectors.

My questions are these:  will the Sourcebook be confined to the Spinward
Marches per se, or will they encompass the Domain of Deneb, as the Regency
Sourcebook did?  if you are doing bits of the Spinward Marches Sourcebook
for GT, is anyone doing the Islands Clusters?  Who is in overall charge?
There are some serious inconsistencies between TCS and the Regency
Sourcebook that I'd rather not see carried over to any new material.

Once again, I ask the list at large:  does anyone know how to contact B.
David Nilsen, who authored the Regency Sourcebook?  I'd really like to ask
him whether the discrepencies I've found were intended as corrections, or
merely in error.

Thanks all,

Chris Thrash
thrash@io.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:49:02 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Fleshpots and Marketing...

> I'm just talking about cold cuts. Like the processed turkey breast that gets
> pumped into a sack, then cooked into a coherent shape. You can store the
> precooked processed biomass in a tank. Then, when you need it, pump it into
> various moulds,  adding appropriate flavor, color and texture to simulate the
> real thing.

Why have cold cuts when u can make yourself a real steak (it will need
cooking, but this isn't a problem), unless u want that kind of meat for your
sandwich? : )
 
> I think its probably the next step past the cloned meat. After you grow the meat
> (which I suspect takes a couple  years at least), you then process it in some
> way.  You can save on storage by just getting the processed stuff off the bat.

There are "zoom wombs" that can do the cloning pretty fast.  It's a few weeks
to grow a full human body to maturity.  I suspect a sirloin would take far
less.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:49:04 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Inside a firing spinal mount

What would happen if someone was in the tunnel of a spinal mount that was
firing?  I'm picturing whoever's inside will be killed, but should there be a
chance of a "backfire" or something?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:08:57 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Fleshpots and Marketing...

TravelrTNE wrote:

> > I'm just talking about cold cuts. Like the processed turkey breast that gets
> > pumped into a sack, then cooked into a coherent shape. You can store the
> > precooked processed biomass in a tank. Then, when you need it, pump it into
> > various moulds,  adding appropriate flavor, color and texture to simulate
> the
> > real thing.
>
> Why have cold cuts when u can make yourself a real steak (it will need
> cooking, but this isn't a problem), unless u want that kind of meat for your
> sandwich? : )

I meant using the same process they use for making cold cuts to make faux-steak.
You just process up a bunch of protein rich biomatter in a tank with
preservatives.  Then you extrude it out into the form, texture, and color you
want.  Voila!  Steak... or a reasonable facimile... well, reasonable for military
purposes.

>
>
> > I think its probably the next step past the cloned meat. After you grow the meat
> > (which I suspect takes a couple  years at least), you then process it in some
> > way.  You can save on storage by just getting the processed stuff off the bat.
>
> There are "zoom wombs" that can do the cloning pretty fast.  It's a few weeks
> to grow a full human body to maturity.  I suspect a sirloin would take far
> less.

"A few weeks" sounds awefully fast for a human body.  The natural method takes
about 2 weeks an ounce.  I really doubt that technology is going to improve that
by a factor of two to three thousand.  And you can't grow a "sirloin", you've got
to grow the whole cow.  Just like you can't clone an arm or eye, you've got to
grow the whole body then transplant.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:18:48 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Inside a firing spinal mount

TravelrTNE wrote:

> What would happen if someone was in the tunnel of a spinal mount that was
> firing?  I'm picturing whoever's inside will be killed, but should there be a
> chance of a "backfire" or something?

  I think that depends on the type of weapon.  PAWs would probably rip the person
apart in the magnetic field. Meson Guns would do the same thing as they have to
accelerate the particals to get mesons in the first place.  I don't think that a
person's mass would be sufficient to cause a misfire though.  However, I think a
person's mass may be enough to screw up the ranging on a Meson gun.  In neither
case would it cause damage to the firing ship.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:11:11 -0600
From: Adam J <fro@lis.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's T4 

At 07:15 19/05/98 PDT, you wrote:

>	When did this all occure? Was this the reason why the 
>Traveller Journel was cancelled? What caused this all to happen?
>So you say Mr. Miller coming up with yet again another version
>of the game...oh great!

Traveller Journal was cancelled because the publisher Swords of the Knight
went out of business, I believe.

- -Adam J

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:30:29 -0700
From: warlock@imagin.net
Subject: Spare Regency Sourcebook

I've a spare Regency Sourcebook if anyone is interested. If so,
please email me directly.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:16:14 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Horror and otherrelated topics...

At 06:48 pm 5/17/98 -0400, you wrote:
>David Golden Wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Being a gearhead, I was basing my ideas
>on the book "Fantasy Wargaming" which contains a fairly coherent,
>detailed magic system. Different areas of magic included elemental
>magic, energy magic, life magic, command, and divination
>(Foresight/Farsight/etc.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I wonder if we're thinking of the same "Fantasy Wargaming" book - 
>the one I have has a magic system that basically says, "wizards from
>mythology don't have spell books. What they want to happen,
happens".
>The rules had the wizard say what effect he wanted, the GM pulled
>a difficulty number out of his hat, then the player hunted around
for
>mystic signs, times of day, astrological sign-related stuff and such
>to get the difficulty level down. It had plenty of details and
coherency
>in the astrological sign info (probably cribbed from any $2.00 new
ager
>star sign book), but the rest of the magic system had about as much 
>substance as the Emperor's New Clothes.

	Sounds like it. I wasn't going to grab straight out of it, of
course, but I like the idea of being able to model any desired effect
consistently. I always loathed, despised and abhorred the so-called
magic system in D&D. BTW, note that they never said nobody had spell
books. In fact, casting a spell somebody else has designed and
written down was easier than creating one from scratch, and casting
one you'd mastered (succesfully cast several times before) was even
easier. I always assumed everybody had spells, but in a tight crunch
you might be able to come up with something new. And at least there
was none of this "you may only know one spell, and once you cast it,
you forget it until a day later" crap from D&D.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:20:44 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller News Group?

At 09:38 pm 5/18/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
>amarin wrote:
>
>>Email lists and web bases forums (that just append mail to a web page or
>>list) cannot compete with the responsiveness and convenience of a true news
>>group.
>
>No offense, but have you ever talked to a news administrator?  Here at UM,
>where we have a pretty good computing environment, we still manage to drop
>news posts on a fairly regular basis -- the email, on the other hand, always
>gets through.  I think you have a skewed view of the reliability of these
>services, to put it mildly.

	Not to mention which, the signal-to-noise ratio. Uselessnet ought to
go off and die somewhere.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:30:13 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Fleshpots and Marketing...

At 04:41 pm 5/19/98 +0100, you wrote:
>>Cloning would still require raw biomass to build from.  If you're going to store
>>biomass, you may as well extrude processed biomass into tubes, flats, or
>>various other shapes and add flavouring, color and texture.
>
>Except that you are getting your biomass for free, from the sanitary
>system.
>
>Just don't tell the passengers that this really is the same beef they
>ate yesterday :)

	It takes more than one pound of input to produce one pound of output
... at both stages of the process. One pound of beef into a passenger
comes out as less than a pound of "output"--and it takes more than a
pound of "output" into the food system to produce a pound of beef.
Sorry, you still gotta carry stuff. Such closed loop systems are
*only* really efficient at much larger scales and longer timeframes,
where you recycle the top of the food chain back into the bottom
(i.e. "soylent green is peepul!").
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:33:35 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Fleshpots and Marketing...

At 09:08 pm 5/19/98 -0400, you wrote:
>by a factor of two to three thousand.  And you can't grow a "sirloin", you've got
>to grow the whole cow.  Just like you can't clone an arm or eye, you've got to
>grow the whole body then transplant.

	Bzzzt! Not entirely correct. I believe that at *current* TLs we are
already capable of cloning certain tissues without growing the whole
creature. 'Course, I may be wrong--it's happened before. And my fuzzy
memory assures me that if I *am* right, it very definitely is only
certain limited types of tissue right now. A steak would be right out
... now.

	The big problem again is the inputs to the system--you'd still need
a lot more in than you get out.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 98 12:54:17 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Marches Sourcebook

On 05/19/98 at 10:16 PM,  scout <scout@microtech.com.au> said:

>At 00:47 19/05/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>Don't let 'em bother you Allen. I say, the more Traveller the better, and I
>>think most folks here agree with me...and probably with you too about GURPS
>>Traveller, too.
>>
>>Eris,
>>    the Heretic
>>
>>ps. fire at will! ;->

>But captain... Will's on our side! Isn't he?

OOC: Ah! Someone took the bait! Let's see..."will" isn't mentioned in CT or
MT (although Determination comes close), becomes a skill (Willpower) in
TNE, then it sinks back into nothingness in T4, and in GURPS, "will" has
been a matter of debate since the beginning...is it the "fifth"
characteristic or isn't it. ;->

And no Will isn't on our side...what are you a @#$#@ StarFleet stooge? All
*real* Traveller's are Ferengi at heart...or is that Klingon? ;-p

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 01:08:06 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Self Sustaining life support.

I surfed through a bunch of crop production reports in an attempt to
figure out how much space is needed for crops to sustain a person
indefinitely in a closed system.  It turns out to be on the order of 350
square meters of planted surface per person. I figure that with half
meter tiers, you can squeeze that into about 175 kL (12.5 dT).  This
assumes a couple things.
1. Ship is properly equipped to maintain the crop.
2. Sufficient light can be maintained through the fusion plant.
3. Water is recycled through the ship back to plants.
4. CO2 is cycled through the plants thus refreshing the air.

The typical setup would involve high conversion algae in tanks to
convert the CO2. The Japanese have buildings with this feature now.  The
rest would be combinations of hydroponics and racks of plants under
controlled lights.  You would definitely need some sort of
farmer/botanist/dietician for this setup.  Eventually, you'd also need
to resupply for flavouring and various other materials.  But, in theory,
you could go years with this setup without resupplying.

This setup would be common in vaccuum worlds, belter colonies,
exploration ships, etc. This takes up a sizable amount of a ship's
volume.  The 400 dT subsidized merchant doesn't have enough cargo space
to be converted for its crew of 9 as an example.

If anybody has better numbers, let me know.  I'm sure we'd all
appreciate it.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:09:10 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Drop tank system development

Hello,
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation
...
>If this is going to work, we'll have to agree on a set of basic premises.
>Let's not discuss implications and ramifications until then. I'll start
>out by listing the facts as they appear to me.
> 
>L-Hyd drop ships have been in service in the interior from some time
>between 1090 and 1095 ["...for the last dozen years" according to a
>newsbrief dated 097-1105].
....
>In early june 1106 the 800 T liner TRIMKHANA-BRILLIANCE was lost with 217
>lives (and 4 survivors) due to an explosion believed caused by the failure
>of a drop tank to separate properly. Tukera lines suspended high-capacity
>service to Regina for an indefinite period.

  The above (including all the snipped stuff) seems inarguable and
all from canon (CT?) sources.

>Drop tanks cost... whatever _High Guard_ says they cost (I forget).

  This one (the low cost) has already caused non-reusable tanks to
be more acceptable, IIRC.

>Unrefined fuel costs Cr100/T at the starport. Refined fuel costs whatever
>is realistic. 

  IIRC you conclusively modelled refined fuel as being unable to sell
for more than Cr 300/DT overall, yes?

> How about it? Any takers? Any other basic premises I've missed? Any of
>mine you disagree with?

  It looks sound. Would the next step be guesstimating the replacement
rates of tonnage by major corps, because those units would be the ones
most likely to switch to "high-capacity" format.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 02:06:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: neo@total.net (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Zoetec equipment on the web?

Hi folks,

Some months ago I posted to the TML my "Zoetec Product Catalog", a bunch of
media tech write-ups. Somebody e-mailed me to ask if they could put them
into the Equipment section of their Traveller web pages, but I later
deleted the mail and now I can't remember who that was.

So, if anyone put the Zoetec media stuff on your web pages, please do let
me know. If I ever get around to finishing the planned write-up of Zoetec's
TL 13+ media tech, or if I make any changes to the existing articles, I'll
be able to update you.

Thanks in advance,

 + GMG +

(Currently working on illustrations for G:T!)

    -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                         <neo@total.net>
    Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
              "Everything is UNACCEPTABLE!!" - BS&P

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 23:25:56 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments (tending towards off topicness)

"Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu> wrote

> >> code riddled with loopholes, and lots of tax evasion) A straight,
> >> evenly applied sales tax on _everything_ no exceptions, would work,
> >> but hell, so would a straight, evenly applied income tax.

> >As would a per person head tax.  Everyone who lives in the United 
> >States would have to pay Y thousand dollars in tax.  Anyone without a 
> >tax stamp would be relatively easily identifiable & sanctionable.

> A per person head tax is, ironically, the epitome of the term "unequal 
> tax burden".

> In that scheme a person who makes $1 million in annual income would 
> pay the same amount of money as a person who makes less than poverty 
> level and supports her 4 children on that.

No the poverty level women would owe five times as much as the
(presumably childless) millionare as kids are not exempt from the tax. 
If the mother wished to avoid her children being sanctioned she would
probably choose to pay their taxes.  Naturally a lifting of unjust
restrictions on child labor would help the children to pay their own way
and a lifting of parental legal responsibility to care for their
children would ensure that parents who chose not to care for their
children would not have to.  [Implicit Darwinian premise - If you do not
want to care for your children, I want your children to die off before
they can breed as I do not wish to see these genes perpetuate
themselves.]

Children are a consumption expense of their parents, who gain the
hedonic pleasure of their company and the genetic value of ensuring that
their genes are passed on.  They do not benefirt me, I generally prefer
killing children over having to pay increased taxes because others pay
less due to tax subsidy of children.

I would prefer not to here arguments based on the notion that children
are our future.  The future has certainally never done anything to
support me and I see _no_ reason why I should support the future.

>  That dollar amount just would not be of
> the same level of affordability to the two involved.

Yes, so ?

Government is, in economic terms, a good or service.  Few or no other
goods or service cost a percentage of income.  Why should government ?

> It has been said that even a straightforward percentage of income (as
> opposed to the byzantine system of exemptions and deductions we have 
> now - and the "progressive" tax chart) is, in fact, a "regressive" 
> tax, meaning the burden on lower income people is 
> greater-proportionally-than the burden on poeple with higher earnings.

Yes and this is one of its better features.  Not only is a percentage
system unjust when viewed as the purchase price of the good or service
of government but ensuring that the burden on the rich is less in a
better system anyway.  The poor, due to lesser human capital, do not
serve as efficient agents for the creation of wealth (which is how
societies become prosperous) but the rich do.  Ensuring that people keep
all of their earnings over Y thousand dollars is a pwerfull incentive
for people to make more money.  When people earn more, they spend more,
this increased spending is "A rising tide which lifts all boats"
including those of the poor.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #502
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 20 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 503



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Starship Morgages and the Imperial Calender
RE: FAQs
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #502
Imperial Tax Policy and *shudder* Piracy
Re: Self Sustaining life support.
Re: Inside a firing spinal mount
Re: Zoetec equipment on the web?
Re: Fleshpots and Marketing...
Re: Horror in Traveller
Re: Marches Sourcebook
Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Governments (tending towards off topicness)
Re: Ongoing discussion on Gurps: Traveller
Sword Worlds name
Re: Marc Miller's T4 
Re: Marches Sourcebook

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 23:26:05 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Morgages and the Imperial Calender

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote

> In mail you write:

> > If starship morgages require mpayment of 1/240th of the loan ammount 
> > for 40 years isn't this 520 payments, not 480 payments as the 
> > Imperial calender seems to have 13 months.   Thirteen twenty eight 
> > day months (+holiday) = 365 days in the Imperial year.  This is a 
> > much more consistent system then our current mish mash of 30 day, 31 
> > day, and 28or 29 day months.

> The Imperial calendar doesn't *have* months. Quoting from an old post:

> > Imperial Dating System: (CT)
> > DAY = 24 hours, divided into 60 minutes, divided into 60 seconds.
> > YEAR = 365 DAYs, numbered 001 to 365.  001 is a holiday, called
> > HOLIDAY; does not have a day name attached. 
> > Dates written "ddd-yyyy"; ddd is day
> > number, yyyy is year number.  001-0001 is date of founding of
> > Third Imperium

The Imperial calender section may not refer to monthes but theStarship
Purchase section does, and alwyas has:

T4  "Standard terms involve the payment of 1/240th of the cash price
each _month_ for 480 months.  In effect, interest and bank financing
cost a simple 120% of final cost of the ship, and total financed price
equals 220% of the purchase price, paid off over a period of 40 years."
- - T4 rules pg 96

TNE: "Standard terms involve the payment of 1/240th of the cash price
each _month_ for 480 months.  Thus, interest and bank financing cost a
simple 120% of final cost of the ship, and total financed price equals
220% of the purchase price, paid off over a period of 40 years." - TNE
rules pg 220

MT: "Standard terms involve the payment of 1/240th of the cash price
each _month_ for 480 months.  In effect, interest and bank financing
cost a simple 120% of final cost of the ship, and total financed price
equals 220% of the purchase price, paid off over a period of 40 years."
- - MT Imperial Encyclopedia pg 89

CT: "Standard terms involve the payment of 1/240th of the cash price
each _month_ for 480 months.  In effect, interest and bank financing
cost a simple 120% of final cost of the ship, and total financed price
equals 220% of the purchase price, paid off over a period of 40 years."
- - The Traveller Book pg 52 and Book 2, Starships pg 7.

So you can see that the system must have months and that 480 of them
make up 40 years.  I note that ship crew salarys are also paid monthly
and always have been.
 
> Frankly, if the rules refer to months, we have several choices:
> 
> 1. 13 28 day months. This is a pain as dividing the year into 13 
>  chunks is less than useful.

Who says that the month is a way to subdivide the year.  It is as valid
to consider the month a way of grouping the day and the week rather than
of subdividing the year.  If the month has 28 days it will always have
exactly 4 weeks in it and each month will begin and end on the same day
of the year, every year. 

However since canon says that 40 years have 480 months in them I will
concede that each year must have 12 months in it.  Although I am tempted
to just increase the number of payments to 520, shorten the 40 year
morgage to 37 years, or rule that during the annual maintenance month no
starship payment is due (note that this ensures that the ship is more
likely to have the money for maintenance & therefore that maintenance is
more likely to occur, thereby protecting the banks multi million credit
investment from misjump, so this is not really the bank being
altruistic).

> 2. 12 months of 30/31 days. This is useful, as 12 is divisible by 2, 
>  3,  4 and 6. This makes it easier dealing with sub-year time periods
>    greater than a week.

Yes if dividing the year is what you want to use your months for.

> 3. Assume that the references are a mistake.

It could be argued that the use of months is a mistake but it has been
word for word consistent for 2o0 years now, so I am inclined to beleive
it is correct.

> I find 2 & 3 the better choices. 
> 
> Here's a likely calendar for #2:

[snip of calender]

This is a nice calender for seperating the year up into quarters and 
(approximate) twelths but it does nothing to aggregate days and weeks
into consistent groups.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 11:15:11 +0200
From: "forem" <forem@ctv.es>
Subject: RE: FAQs

 Estoy de acuerdo en todo- o.k.
- -----Original Message-----
De: Peter H. Brenton <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Para: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Fecha: lunes 11 de mayo de 1998 21:27
Asunto: Re: FAQs


>>Where could I get FAQs for Traveller's rules, not the FAQs for this
mailing
>>list?
>
>You need to clarify this question.  There are four sets of rules, five
>counting the Gurps:Traveller supplement, and many supplements pertinent to
>each, all or none.
>
>If you have a rules question, check the TML FAQ to see if its a "done to
>death" question, if not, post your question.  Just don't expect one answer.
>
>
>Pete
>
>                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
>"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
>  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:48:02
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #502

>Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 19:29:44 -0400
>From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
>Subject: Re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)
>
>[Analysis clipped]
>
>Here's where piracy becomes "reasonable".  The Starport is on a moon of
>a large gas giant.  This moon is very close to the GG, perhaps only a
>few diameters out.  Pirates hide on a different moon/asteroid.  When a
>starship passes by, they snatch it.  Maneuvering at high speeds through
>the orbital masses of a gas giant is dangerous.  If you come in too
>fast, you may not be able to escape the pull of the gas giant.  Then
>you're really screwed.
>

The obvious response is where the objective conditions make piracy
possible, you have a higher investment in escort forces.

The second point is dont gas giants have brutal electromagnetic fields that
make settlements on moons near them unlikely ?

>
>Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 23:25:56 -0800
>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
>Subject: Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments (tending towards off
topicness)
>
>"Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu> wrote
>

<much stuff deleted>

Peter, have you read Swift's "A Modest Proposal" ?

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:49:51
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Imperial Tax Policy and *shudder* Piracy

>
>Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 19:03:28 +0100
>From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
>Subject: Re: Imperial Tax Policy
>
>Ian or Katts wrote:
>
>> The next question is what legal rights do Dukes, Barons etc
>> have ? Does your Subsector Duke have the legal right to tax
>> a world ? Saying 'yes' gets you a truly feudal Imperium, but
>> it seems to violate the 'Imperium doesnt run worlds' policy.
>
>Sector and Subsector Dukes must have limited tax powers  ...  the
>Fourth Frontier War was fought and concluded before  instructions
>from Core could be received.  In the  event  of  wars,  etc,  the
>local Imperial government must be able to raise additional  funds
>as necessary.  Also, if a world suffers plague or other disaster,
>then the local Imperial government must be  able  to  respond  by
>temporarily easing an afflicted  world's  tax  burden.  This  may
>mean just waiving taxes on humanitarian aid, or it may  mean  tax
>breaks while the planet's economy is being  rebuilt  (depends  on
>the generosity of the local nobility).  The Imperium has a policy
>of not running a world's  _domestic  situation_,  but  its  trade
>relations with other worlds is another matter.
>

First of all, debt is faster to raise than taxes. If, for example, the IN
needs a couple of dozen gigacredits to support a war, then it just writes
IOUs, which will be backed by the Imperium as and when time permits. It's a
lot easier than declaring the new tax, and then actually getting the money
off them.

With the big issue, I should have been a bit more specific ... what happens
if a world disputes their tax rates, claiming high level corrpution
perhaps, and wont pay up at the new rates ?

>> The final question is what infrastructure exists to support
>> Imperial Tax policy. Is it a job for the Imperial Nobility,
>> or are there Imperial Ministry of Justice Strike Audit Teams
>
>Imperial Tax Policy is set by the  Emperor  in  broad  terms  and
>worked out in detail by the Sector  and  Subsector  Dukes.  Trade
>volumes are monitored by  each  starport's  local  SPA  (Starport
>Authority) which files reports to  the  Nobility  via  the  IISS.
>Smuggling is monitored by each starport's local SPA, backed up by
>the IISS and the Imperial  Navy.  Anti-smuggling  operations  are
>carried out by the Imperial Navy  units,  and  (in  the  case  of
>corruption by the planetary  government)  the  JSB  (Ministry  of
>Justice, Special Branch).  Survivors are prosecuted  by  the  MoJ
>(Ministry of Justice) in Subsector Courts.
>

Wait a second ... smuggling implies the taxation and/or banning of
commodities. Off the top of my head, I can think of only nukes, slaves and
(perhaps) military weapons as Imperially Discouraged items of commerce.

>At least in theory.  In reality  Imperial  Tax  Policy  would  by
>inconsistantly applied across the  Imperium.  Some  nobles  would
>squeeze every last credit  out  of  their  worlds,  whilst  other
>nobles  take  a  more  enlightened  view  ...  encouraging  local
>economies to thrive.  Meanwhile, anti-smuggling operations  would
>be complicated by inter-agency rivalry.
>
>Comments?
>
>Regards PLST

>
>Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:41:10 +0100
>From: "Buston, John" <john.buston@eds.com>
>Subject: Re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)
>
>>It makes perfect sense; a 400 ton Close Escort to shepherd a few fat 
>>traders, they jump together, arriving within a few hours of one another at
>the
>>destination.
>
>Due to the vagaries of jump space they could arrive as much as two days
>apart.
>

If you assume this, fleet actions are impossible.

>And then of course any other trader who was aware of the agreement could
>tag along without paying his escort dues. A free loader could jump a few
>hours later and still benefit from the escort. Though he runs the risk
>of then being taken for a pirate.

Purely an accidental shot, I can assure you.

>
>IMO an escort would only be of use when jumping to worlds where you
>could not trust the system defense boats (SDBs) of the target worlds
>(see below).
>
>
>Has anyone done an analysis of the logistics of piracy/raiding? 

Yes. This process is commonly known as The Great Piracy Debate of 1997.

>
>Case 1: Piracy on worlds with no (trustworthy) SDBs.
>
>In this case the pirates hide out on the planet itself and intercept
>close to the planet. As long as they have a higher G drive than you do
>then they have you. They may have you anyway if you have to dip for
>fuel.
>
>So you need an escort for the entirety of the trading mission. You need
>to stay together too, or else they can pick you off when you are
>separated from the escort.
>

If you assume the IN takes a hard line against state-supported piracy, this
could get very unhealthy for the host planet very fast.

>Case 2: Piracy on worlds with an imperial starport and SDBs.
>
>The trader jumps to the target world and comes out as near to the 100
>diameter point as possible. At 1G acceleration, with turnover, it runs
>for the highport and makes it in just over six hours, on average.
>Quicker if an excellent jump exit roll was made, slower if a poor jump
>exit roll was made.
>
>A 6G SDB, stationed at the highport or in orbit, can reach any point
>within 100 diameters in 2.6 hours, with turnover. The SDB can do it in
>half this time, 1.3 hours, if it does so without turnover, say to make a
>strafing run. For a 3G SDB the times are under 4 and 2 hours
>respectively.
>
>Note: hiding out beyond the 100 diameter point means that you will be on
>average 140 diameters from any jump point (using Pythagoras). 
>
>A pirate hiding out beyond the 100 diameter limit has to intercept,
>disable, and then match vectors with, any trader it wants to rob. It
>must then rob cargo, etc., and get back out to 100 diameters and jump.
>It must be able to do this before any military craft can intercept (i.e.
>2 hours max.). Anyone lurking within the 100 diameter sphere is asking
>for a visit from Cleons Finest.

All true. Relativly cheap passive sensors in FFS2 have very long ranges,
and fighters are pretty cheap and even useful against ethically-challenged
civilians. Any ship hanging around with no real business gets a 'hello'
from the Space Patrol in my book.

>
>To raid a ship jumping into the system:
>
>You need a high G ship (at least 3G) and be within about 20 diameters of
>the incoming ships jump exit to stand any chance of success (i.e. about
>one in 250 incoming traders would be within range). Also the incoming
>ship would have to have a relatively low exit velocity and have only a
>1G drive - otherwise you play catch up for too long.  All in all not
>very practical.

You also have the problem of response via 12g missiles from the starport,
but I havent done the numbers on this.

>
>To raid a ship leaving the system:
>
>You are going to find it very difficult to match velocities as a leaving
>ship doesn't need to bother with turnover. A 1G ship can reach 100
>diameters in around 3 hours without turnover, and is going to be going
>very fast at the 100 diameter point (around 80 000 km/h). 
>
>So there is very little hope of normal interception - and even if there
>was the trader would probably jump inside 100 diameters rather than risk
>capture. Your only hope is to remain hidden at the 100 diameter point.
>Then when he is within laser range disable him with the first salvo
>before he can jump. Ordinarily you would have to be very lucky to be in
>the right place to achieve this. Much less than one in 250 ships will
>come close enough for this. So only really practical if you have a
>corrupt space traffic controller assigning the exit vectors. And the
>authorities will assume this has happened afterwards and be grilling the
>controller.

The risk is also there that they will turn him beforehand, and you will
find the intended victim to be rather better armed and armoured than you
thought.

>
>Even if you manage to disable the ship you then have to match velocities
>and chase the ship down for nearly two hours (at 3G), unload it and then
>jump immediately. 
>
>Conclusion:
>
>All this leads me to conclude that an extra G of maneuver drive is much
>more useful than a second laser turret. Perhaps even more useful than
>your first turret? A high G drive makes you much less attractive to
>potential molesters than does a standard turret.

True, but it leads me to the assumption that piracy just isnt going to
happen without the at least passive co-operation of the local government.
And this is damn unhealthy within the Imperium.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 11:08:43 +0100 (BST)
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Self Sustaining life support.

I thought that NASA was well into self sustaining life support, don't they
have a science team on this ? If so there may be some info from there web
pages.

Ewan

	Ewan Quibell
	Data Communications Technician        The Game's afoot:
	Computer Centre                       Follow your spirit, and apon
	University of Brighton                  this charge
                                              Cry 'God for Harry, England,
	E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              and Saint George !'

                                                    Henry V 3:1
	#include<stddisclamer.h>                    W. Shakespeare

	My spelling is entierly due to dyslexia, typoes and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 03:21:34 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Inside a firing spinal mount

At 08:49 PM 5/19/98 EDT, you wrote:
>What would happen if someone was in the tunnel of a spinal mount that was
>firing?  I'm picturing whoever's inside will be killed, but should there be a
>chance of a "backfire" or something?

I don't think the system would fire with something as large as a man
clogging the tube.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 03:24:09 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Zoetec equipment on the web?

At 02:06 AM 5/20/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi folks,
>
>Some months ago I posted to the TML my "Zoetec Product Catalog", a bunch of
>media tech write-ups. Somebody e-mailed me to ask if they could put them
>into the Equipment section of their Traveller web pages, but I later
>deleted the mail and now I can't remember who that was.
>
>So, if anyone put the Zoetec media stuff on your web pages, please do let
>me know. If I ever get around to finishing the planned write-up of Zoetec's
>TL 13+ media tech, or if I make any changes to the existing articles, I'll
>be able to update you.

that was me, and I haven't gotten them up yet (too much to do!)  I'll have
the whole thing HTML'd sometime this week.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 03:31:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Fleshpots and Marketing...

Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>TravelrTNE wrote:
>> There are "zoom wombs" that can do the cloning pretty fast.  It's a 
>> few weeks to grow a full human body to maturity.  I suspect a sirloin 
>> would take far less.

Actually it takes about 2 months to grow an adult human.

>"A few weeks" sounds awefully fast for a human body.  The natural method 
>takes about 2 weeks an ounce.  I really doubt that technology is going 
>to improve that by a factor of two to three thousand.  And you can't grow a 
>"sirloin", you've got to grow the whole cow.  Just like you can't clone 
>an arm or eye, you've got to grow the whole body then transplant.

Actually, this is entirely untrue in Traveller.  Organ cloning exists and
is TL 13.  If you can grow and eye or a hand at TL 13 I'd say growing a
generic mass-o-meat is more like TL 11 or 12.  Also, you can grow organ
clones (or any other kinds of clones) faster than normal if adequate
nutrients are provided.  At TL 10 the rate is x10, at TL 12 x50 and at TL
13 x 100.  That means you could grow a 100 kg human in 2 months (18
years/100) at TL 13. 

All this makes Real World sense because we are currently working on the
beginning of organ cloning.  They're close to skin and are doing good
initial work on livers.  In several thousand years this will be old and
easy tech and will likely be used in fast food joints the galaxy over. 

All of the above info from MegaTraveller (and I'm fairly sure all this was
true for TNE as well).  If this is not true in T4, then this is yet
another problem with T4, because this is tech we are likely to have in a
couple of decades (though it will likely be a bit longer before we're
growing dinner this way :)

Comments?


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 12:38:03 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Horror in Traveller

>        Has anyone tried to implement a Horror setting with Traveller?

My version of 'Horror Traveller' was a kind of Poltergeist scenario. When
my group visited a character (PC who missed the session before) who took a
job as a nanny for a widower and his daughter, they encountered some VERY
strange phenomenons. Those were quite funny, like self-steering toy cars
and card houses being built alone, until one of the characters followed
the girl to the kitchen, where he encountered the complete knife
collection thrown at him - and the others only heard screaming through the
door. This ended with a 'ghost' appearing on top of some stairs - which
threw the marine of the group down them (I wrote about this before).

I planned this adventure for halloween, but had to play it later - due to
a delay in playing with the group, the adventure still is not
accomplished. Figure out what caused the sightings above.

Another horror-like adventure has been published in the Travellers'
Digest: 'The Possession Ball'. The group has to fetch some goodies from an
abandoned and seemingly 'haunted' house on a cliff, which was formerly a
psionics institute.

There are much other adventure containing horror elements. It depends on
if you want 'gothic horror' or the splatter type. Creepy animals can be
interesting sometimes while investigating a cave or ancient complex (e.g.
'Shadows', 'Annic Nova', 'Artifacts unearthed') For an alien-like setting
refer to the Chamax-Plague classic adventure. 

Atmosphere is important. Don't let the crew figure out what's on too
early, it is best when they know *that* there is something, but they don't
know *what* it is or how it looks like.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 13:00:44 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Marches Sourcebook

On Mon, 18 May 1998, Allen Shock wrote:

> >As it happens, there will be a new Marches book quite soon. Most of the
> >data is extrapolated from Supplement 3 or the Regency book. Setting is 1120
> >non-rebellion, which will cause some folks to howl... but who cares.
> >
> >'Course, it's a GURPS book (more howls) but those with any sense will
> 
> 
> The only howls you'll hear from me are howls of delight :) I am SO ready for
> GURPS Traveller :)

And I'm waiting and waiting and waiting ... when will this be available in
Germany? I go to my FLGS every two to three weeks, but there is not any
new Traveller there. Not IG - but also not GURPS ... 

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 04:06:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Governments (tending towards off topicness)

Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net> wrote:

>"Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu> wrote

>> >As would a per person head tax.  Everyone who lives in the United 
>> >States would have to pay Y thousand dollars in tax.  Anyone without a 
>> >tax stamp would be relatively easily identifiable & sanctionable.
>> A per person head tax is, ironically, the epitome of the term "unequal 
>> tax burden".

>No the poverty level women would owe five times as much as the
>(presumably childless) millionare as kids are not exempt from the tax.
>If the mother wished to avoid her children being sanctioned she would
>probably choose to pay their taxes.  Naturally a lifting of unjust
>restrictions on child labor would help the children to pay their own way
>and a lifting of parental legal responsibility to care for their
>children would ensure that parents who chose not to care for their
>children would not have to.  

Hmm, I may be wrong about you.  As parody this is *great* stuff. You truly
frighten me if you actually believe this, but if this is parody of the
ultra-right then I applaud you.  I'm childless, I hate children and I'm
*amazed* by these statements.  Someone should employ you to work for some
ultra-right political group. With speeches like this you have them
discredited in a matter of weeks.  If this is your goal, go for it. 

>[Implicit Darwinian premise - If you do not
>want to care for your children, I want your children to die off 
>before they can breed as I do not wish to see these genes 
>perpetuate themselves.]

Actually, there's not much Darwinian here, I see lots of Social Darwinism
(an discredited and fairly primitive late 19th century philosophy with no
scientific basic used by the rich to justify screwing the poor) and a bit
of Sociobiology (a discredited late 20th century philosophy used for the
same purposes).  There is 0 evidence that poverty is genetic and much that
is it not. 

 <snip>

>>  That dollar amount just would not be of
>>  the same level of affordability to the two involved.

> Yes, so ?

Hmm, I guess compassion, and social justice are new concepts.

>Government is, in economic terms, a good or service.  Few or no other
>goods or service cost a percentage of income.  Why should government ?

Maybe because a government is not a business?  Maybe because it has almost
nothing in common with a business, and models which say it should be run
like one simply don't work? 

>> It has been said that even a straightforward percentage of income (as
>> opposed to the byzantine system of exemptions and deductions we 
>> have now - and the "progressive" tax chart) is, in fact, a 
>> "regressive" tax, meaning the burden on lower income people 
>> is greater-proportionally-than the burden on poeple with higher 
>> earnings.

>Yes and this is one of its better features.  Not only is a percentage
>system unjust when viewed as the purchase price of the good or service
>of government but ensuring that the burden on the rich is less in a
>better system anyway.  The poor, due to lesser human capital, do not
>serve as efficient agents for the creation of wealth (which is how
>societies become prosperous) but the rich do.  Ensuring that people keep
>all of their earnings over Y thousand dollars is a pwerfull incentive
>for people to make more money.  When people earn more, they 
>spend more, this increased spending is "A rising tide which lifts all 
>boats" including those of the poor.

A quick look through history will show this idea to be entirely false. 
Take a look at the early (mid 19th cen) industrial era in Britain.  All
boats weren't lifted there, in fact until reforms of the type which I'm
sure you would object to were put in place the population was briefly
below replacement levels, especially in cities. 

One of any useful governments purposes (leaving considerations of social
justice aside) is to help a society continue to exist.  Laws like you are
proposing would cause huge numbers of people to flee or die.  Given that
free-market capitalism can only exist where there are notable
discrepancies in wealth (otherwise why would person X work for person Y. 
This problem would continue and eventually that society would no longer
exist.  History has proven this to be true (though in all cases I know of
these laws were changed before the collapse occurred).  All ethics and
moral problems aside,

In a hopeless quest to take this back to Traveller, it would be
interesting to have the PCs land on a world where some crazed regime had
instituted such a system.  A "PC's help the local Wooblies" campaign could
be a blast.  For info you could take a look at what happened in Paraguay
in the early-mid 80s.  They tried a system like you are proposing with aid
from academics at the University of Chicago who were effectively using the
nation as a testing ground fro political and economic theories.  There's
loads of fascinating Traveller scenarios in that stuff.  Amoral academics
come to experiment on a developing planet... 


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 13:31:49 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Ongoing discussion on Gurps: Traveller

On Tue, 19 May 1998, Allen Shock wrote:

>     having seen what exists at this point of the manuscript, I can assure
> you that there is no FTL radio, jump drives use fuel, lasers use backpacks
> and all that good stuff :) Loren knows Traveller; he would not let them
> change it too much. Even though, in my opinion, some things NEED a bit of
> alteration because the state of the art in SF has kinda passed Traveller by
> in some areas...but then, that might be part of the "charm". Power plants
[snip]

And always remember: Traveller is based on both Vilani and Solomani
Technology after a long night! The advancements we see now can be
explained away by this fact if they are not available in the Traverse.

Oh, I remember one of my players calling "What? they are using wood?" when
I described the house they were in (at TL 12). But he was quiet then when
he saw the looks of the other players. Another wondered why a newspaper
lied there - he did not realize that I never mentioned the material it
consisted of nor if it was printed by the home's network computer.
Everyone has a different view of what future brings.

If we await plastic for the future, how can we be sure not to find wood
again, even if it's from genetic grown trees? Looks the same, though ...

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 13:57:04 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Sword Worlds name

Just wondering:
Whose Sword was Sacnoth?
The others i know, but this historical reference eludes me....
Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 07:54:53 -0400
From: Journey <jjgray@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's T4 

At 08:11 PM 5/19/98, Adam wrote:


>Traveller Journal was cancelled because the publisher Swords of the Knight
>went out of business, I believe.

Actually, Imperium games also put out a magazine called Journal of the
Traveller's Aid Society. It was cancelled after only, I believe, two issues. 

Jay

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 14:01:08 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Marches Sourcebook

- -> And I'm waiting and waiting and waiting ... when will this be available in
- -> Germany? I go to my FLGS every two to three weeks, but there is not any
- -> new Traveller there. Not IG - but also not GURPS ... 
Moin Lars, 
afaik, it's not out yet, but in preproduction, meaning that it is in 
the final stages before being sent to the printers. The Daily 
Illuminator on http://www.sjgames.com/ill will tell us, when this 
happens, as well as when it returns from the printer and when it 
should arrive in the stores.
Wir muessen also wohl oder uebel noch etwas darauf warten.   



Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #503
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 20 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 504



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fleshpots and Marketing...
Re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)
Re: Inside a firing spinal mount
Re: Discussion about GURPS:Traveller
Re: Sword World names
Re: Escort tonnage
Re: Sword World names
RE: Fleshpots and Marketing...
RE: Inside a firing spinal mount
RE: Marc Miller's T4 
space opera (vilani) [was: tax systems...]
Re: Sword World names
Re: Self Sustaining life support.
Re: Sword World names
Re: Marc Miller's T4
MT Autofire and RoF
Re: Inside a firing spinal mount
Re: Sword World names
Starflight & Traveller
Re: Self Sustaining life support.
The Imperial Calendar

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 08:04:45 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Fleshpots and Marketing...

John R. Snead wrote:

> >"A few weeks" sounds awefully fast for a human body.  The natural method
> >takes about 2 weeks an ounce.  I really doubt that technology is going
> >to improve that by a factor of two to three thousand.  And you can't grow a
> >"sirloin", you've got to grow the whole cow.  Just like you can't clone
> >an arm or eye, you've got to grow the whole body then transplant.
>
> Actually, this is entirely untrue in Traveller.  Organ cloning exists and
> is TL 13.  If you can grow and eye or a hand at TL 13 I'd say growing a
> generic mass-o-meat is more like TL 11 or 12.

I checked the reference in MT. But, as many things in Traveller, they don't
explain how organ cloning is done.  Which is to say, the rules don't declare
which of us is right.  I personally believe that you clone a whole body, then
focus the growth on the parts you want.  This produces limbs and organs with
vestigial body parts attached.  Definitely not something for the feint of
heart.  I also believe that muscle tissue is an organ and thus your "generic
mass-o-meat" is still TL 13.

> Also, you can grow organ
> clones (or any other kinds of clones) faster than normal if adequate
> nutrients are provided.  At TL 10 the rate is x10, at TL 12 x50 and at TL
> 13 x 100.  That means you could grow a 100 kg human in 2 months (18
> years/100) at TL 13.

"Adequate nutrients".  Remember that this discussion is about long term, "zero"
input food construction.  Human waste products is by no means "adequate
nutrients".  If you need these "adequate nutrients" to grow your steak, you can
just bypass the middle man and take these nutrients directly.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 09:37:03 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)

>>It makes perfect sense; a 400 ton Close Escort to shepherd a few fat
>>traders, they jump together, arriving within a few hours of one another at the
>>destination.
>
>Due to the vagaries of jump space they could arrive as much as two days
>apart.

Brian Mays pointed out what I had heard of; Ships can coordinate to arrive
(roughly) together.  The details of this are debatable, for example, a GM
could reasonably rule that any JDrive not in excellent health (past it's
annual maintanence deadline perhaps? understaffed for engineers?) will not
match consistently with its escort (or with the ships being escorted).

>And then of course any other trader who was aware of the agreement could
>tag along without paying his escort dues. A free loader could jump a few
>hours later and still benefit from the escort. Though he runs the risk
>of then being taken for a pirate.

I hadn't thought of that, and I'd bet the Imperium would frown on a
'registered escort service' ignoring the plight of a bystander being
attacked, too.

>Has anyone done an analysis of the logistics of piracy/raiding?

I did not with great intent.  First, the debates here convinced me to some
extent that its probably not possible, except in certain specific
instances, to run a successful piracy business in the Imperium proper.  It
is possible to profit from a tradewar situation where "rules of war" allow
taking prizes legally, or in a "cold" or "hot" war with another
interstellar government (Zhos, Vargr) where privateering is encouraged.
The problem as I see it is not so much the capture of vessels as their
disposal.  Starships are registered, tagged, tracked and inventoried to
within an inch of their lives usually, and only legitimate ownership
(assuming one doesn't export it to another realm completely) is useful.

[snip]
>The trader jumps to the target world and comes out as near to the 100
>diameter point as possible.
[snip]
>A 6G SDB, stationed at the highport or in orbit, can reach any point
>within 100 diameters in 2.6 hours, with turnover.

I will point out here that the 100 diameter limit of a system's star is
sometimes much farther out than that of the system's mainworld.  Also, many
merchants save money by refueling at a gas giant, many hours away from the
mainworld.  The GG itself is probably patrolled, and random patrol boats
may move back and forth, but there is a good opportunity for a raider to
catch ships in transit.

Recently, I read here from Marc's hand that when jumping a ship emerges in
a predictable area of space (on a line from the point of jump initiation to
the destination planet) which makes life harder for pirates (since SDBs can
be posted where ships are expected to emerge, approximately).

Altogether, I agree that piracy is quite difficult to pull off.  To make it
a real risk there is usually something 'special' happening (war, tradewar,
inside intelligence, sabateur/infiltrator/betrayal, etc.) which keeps the
local SDBs from helping and/or the victims from running and, often,
allowing disposal of the real 'booty' (ships) legally.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 09:52:20 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Inside a firing spinal mount

travellerTNE wrote;
>What would happen if someone was in the tunnel of a spinal mount that was
>firing?  I'm picturing whoever's inside will be killed, but should there be a
>chance of a "backfire" or something?

I can see a couple of possibilities.

First, lets assume that the person is vacc suited.  I'll bet good money
that the "firing chamber" of any spinal mount (PAW, MG, Disintegrator
(TL17)) is held in a vacuum.

As another poster said, the magnetics will be pretty nasty.  This may or
may not have an effect.  I am not familiar with how humans react to
magnetics. Let's assume thought that the suit is specifically non-magnetic
for vars. reasons.

Next prefiring step for a PAW is probably to use a radiation source to
release a charged or neutral particle into the chamber and accellerate it
to near-C.  This should release a goodly amount of nasty EM radiation (all
up and down the scale I would guess) which would normally just bounce
around and emit out the barrel.  In this case there is a nice, watery
object there to absorb a significant fraction of the emitted energy; a
human body.

Ever put a frog in the microwave?  I would expect the body to splatter all
over the interior of the tunnel, with bone fragments and pieces of suit
striking out as well.  If you believe the inside of the tunnel is armored,
this is not really a problem (except for the poor engineer who has to clean
up).  If, on the other hand, the inside of your spinal weapon is lined with
delicate electronics, carefully aligned magnetic coils, and specialized
optics, there may be a problem.

The spinal weapon will probably fire once in even the worst case.

Pete



                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 16:21:34 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Discussion about GURPS:Traveller

Lars Adler writes:

>Another wondered why a newspaper lied there

All newspapers lie no matter where they are.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "Kettelman bristled. Nothing got him angrier than when
         people implied that he was paranoid. It made him feel
         persecuted."
                                --Robert Sheckley

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 16:27:54 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Sword World names

Volker A. Greimann writes:

>Whose Sword was Sacnoth?
>The others i know, but this historical reference eludes me....

You've managed to find all the others? How about posting a list of them?
I'm sure I'm not the only one who would be interested.

(About Sacnoth: I don't recall if that is one of the ones I've managed to
track down. I'll check my files when I get home and get back to you
to morrow).


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 17:24:54 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage

Peter H. Brenton writes:

>>And I feel that it's not the number of ships escorted that's the crucial
>>question, it's the number of ships defended against.
> 
>This piece of information is generally not that readily available. A guess
>can be made in some circumstances, but in practice there will not be a lot
>of reliability to that guess usually.

But the basic assumption was that the merchants involved believed that the
escort force was big enough to defend 10 ships against the potential
raider. It dosen't even matter if they are mistaken or not. That's what
they believe. If they don't know the extent of the threat, they'd hire
as much as they could afford and still make a profit, wouldn't they? 
 
>>>>If an escort force were big enough to protect 10 free traders, it would
>>>>IMO be big enough to protect 50 free traders.
>>>
>>>But would 50 free traders pay for that protection?
>>
>>Why shouldn't they?
> 
>I think that a merchant would expect a certain amount of value for his
>money.  By Value I mean the ability of the escort to protect his ship.
>That ability seems to me to be diluted when more ships are being protected.

Ah. That seems to be the sticking point. Why should it be diluted? The
weapon ranges are so large that you can pack your convoy many kilometers
apart and all of them would still be essentially as close to the escort
as any of the others. Why do you think that more ships will mean less
coverage?
  
>The threat being unknown, or imperfectly known, a larger group of
>'non-combatants' will be harder to protect than a smaller group since they
>will present a larger target, worthy of more 'pirate' tonnage to capture.

I'm having trouble with this concept because I find it hard enough to
believe in single pirates. Imagining pirate fleets are even harder. But
I'll have a try. How do these pirates coordinate their attack? They can't
know the size of the next convoy, can they? So if a big fleet capable of
dealing with the escort is assembled anyway, the escort would not be big
enough to protect a 10 ship convoy either, would it?

>Precisely, yet perhaps they are willing to pay more than that figure for
>protection.

Not if they think that the escort is big enough to deal with the potential
threat. You're ignoring the original premise. The merchants believe the
escort is big enough to deal with the threat. Why should they pay for more
protection than they need?

>If they can get *better* protection (meaning a higher ratio of escort
>tonnage to merchant tonnage) they will probably buy it (if available).

Only if they think they need it. A force capable of dealing with twice
the number of attackers is not twice as useful unless there twice as
many attackers -- in which case the original escort force wasn't good
enough in the first place!

Steve Rennell writes:

>>But for the purpose of this argument, one 400 T CE is
>>thought to be able to deal with that pesky Vargr
>>Corsair that is thought to be out there, right? 
> 
>>Given that, I don't see why 10 ships should feel more or
>>less protected than 20 or 50 or 100.
> 
>I think it's a matter of pirate economics.

Heh! As David Summers and several other people can tell you, you don't want
get me started of pirate economics in earnest! ;->

>If there are lots of targets, it's worth getting a bunch of ships together
>and attacking, so you need more defenders. If there are only a few targets,
>then although you could overwhelm them with a bunch of pirate ships, the
>outlay would not be repaid by the expected rewards.

The first half of that argument is well enough, but the second half
dosen't hold water. Assuming for purposes of argument that you have
assembled a pirate fleet in the first place, it is literally pissing
money away every day you lie idle. Capturing a couple of merchant
ships will be better than nothing. Plus, merchant ships are worth a
lot of money. Even a single one will give a good return, again
assuming that you can capture it in the first place and sell it in 
the second (which we have to assume in order to have the situation
in the first place (I happen to believe an ordinary, "civilian"
pirate would have a lot of trouble capturing one and even more trouble
selling it, but that's by the way)).

>In a TU where the ships are worth as much as they are in CT, and assuming
>you can re-register them and sell them for a profit of say 30% of their
>original worth, then the ships are the primary targets, and getting a dozen
>pirate ships together to take out a single fat trader might even be
>worthwhile.
> 
>This is probably more true for Vargr, since all they gotta do is dodge
>the patrols on the way in and out, they don't actually have to live there.

But they do have to get from their home port to the "hunting grounds",
which takes several jumps; then they have to hope they don't jump into
a system with a naval patrol present. Then they have to find an
unescorted ship in a system with no system defenses of its own.
 
>Say 10 400t Vargr "corsairs" take a 400t Fat trader (worth 
>about 100Mcr) get a profit of ~30Mcr, or 3Mcr each. How 
>long can you pay your operating expenses with that?

I forget how much a Corsair costs. Is it about MCr200? If it is, the
raiding force is worth MCr2,000 and will, in order to give the same
rate of return as investing in merchant ships gives, have to earn
MCr125/per year over and about running expenses.
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 10:52:14 -0500 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: Sword World names

>Volker A. Greimann writes:
>
>>Whose Sword was Sacnoth?
>>The others i know, but this historical reference eludes me....

I though Sacnoth was from Lord Dunsany's "The Fortress Unvanquishable, Save
for Sacnoth."

Ciao,


Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 08:57:57 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Fleshpots and Marketing...

>	Bzzzt! Not entirely correct. I believe that at *current* TLs we are
>already capable of cloning certain tissues without growing the whole
>creature. 'Course, I may be wrong--it's happened before. And my fuzzy
>memory assures me that if I *am* right, it very definitely is only
>certain limited types of tissue right now. A steak would be right out
>... now.

No, you're right.  We are in the experimental stage, but we have
successfully cloned organs such as the liver.  As long as it's the same
cell(s) over and over, and not a complex organ, it's do-able.

This is where the GURPS "meat factory" idea comes in.  You aren't cloning
exact cuts of meat, just a mass of muscle cells.  It will not look pretty,
but it's meat.

And it is MUCH to early to be discussing this.  I think I need a salad . . .
:)

Brian

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 08:57:57 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Inside a firing spinal mount

>
>I don't think the system would fire with something as large as a man
>clogging the tube.
>--
>

But how long would he be as large as a man???  :)

Brian

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 09:07:59 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Marc Miller's T4 

>>Traveller Journal was cancelled because the publisher Swords of the Knight
>>went out of business, I believe.
>
>Actually, Imperium games also put out a magazine called Journal of the
>Traveller's Aid Society. It was cancelled after only, I believe, 
>two issues. 
>
>Jay
>

Yeah, and I never did get a refund.  Slimy bastards.

Brian

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 17:25:10 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: space opera (vilani) [was: tax systems...]

Peter Brenton writes the following delightful lines:

>Oh, wait, I have more non-trav lines than trav lines.  Allow me to quote
>some Vilani Opera (free translation!);

>"Alas the Kikkophan of my dreams has gone to her death.
>I can no longer face the Fretop of life's chores
>The ennui hits my heart! it stabs the Utyp of forgetfulness
>Spinging forth fruntily my Desperate Gardenia, Truly."

>"Gogyon of destiny, flee!
>Go no more into thy Deepest darkness.
>Heed my warning, oh foul noitrop and leave
>to lift another time, in another place of my choosing."

>- -Death of Gerippa, Act III scene 2


Encore!  Encore!  Maestro!


>There, that should do it.


Yes, I certainly think that will 'do' it.

Actually, for anyone to whom this idea appealed, you might like to check
out:

http://www.omnimag.com/archives/fiction/opera/index.html

which is the brilliant Michael Kandel piece 'reviewing' a fictional bit of
SF opera.  Personally, I loved it.  Worth a visit and if you've time -
exploring
the rest of the Omni site.

HTH


tc

                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 18:19:56 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Sword World names

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> You've managed to find all the others? How about posting a list of them?
> I'm sure I'm not the only one who would be interested.
Lesseee....
Oops, must have lost the list, at least i cant find it. Heres the ones i can do from memory:

Hrunting	-Norse Mythology
Mjolnir		-Norse Mythology, Hammer of Thor
Gungnir
Tizon
Dyrwin
Colada
Joyeuse
Durendal
Gram
Tyrfing		-Norse Mythology?
Hofud
Beater
Sacnoth
Sting		-Tolkien
Excalibur	-Sword of King Arthur
Orcrist		-Tolkien
Biter
Anduril		-Tolkien?
Iron		-Metal to forge Swords
Narsil		-Tolkien??
Bronze		-Metal to Forge Swords
Mithril		-Metal to forge Swords, Tolkien
Steel		-Metal to forge Swords
Enos


- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 10:25:05 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Self Sustaining life support.

Joe Pettit wrote:

> If anybody has better numbers, let me know.  I'm sure we'd all
> appreciate it.

Don't laugh, now, but Biosphere II, while somewhat of a running joke
around here, _is_ still a self-contained, sealed environement that
people lived in for a year. One of the things they discovered was that
new concrete is a hell of a CO2 sink. a lot more than they thought.

They have a bunch of references on line, too.

http://www.bio2.edu/


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 12:10:51 -0500
From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
Subject: Re: Sword World names

At 11:19 AM 5/20/98 , Volker A. Greimann wrote:
>Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

>Joyeuse
French: Charlemagne's sword
>Durendal
 French:I am Widowmaker. Called Durendal. Called nail. Called saviour by
The Roland.
>Gram
Sigurd's sword
>>Beater
Tolkien:Goblin name for Orcrist
>Sacnoth
Leothric's sword from Dunsany's "The Fortress Unvanquishable, Save for
Sacnoth"
>Biter
Tolkien:Goblin name for Glamdring
>Anduril		-Tolkien?
>Narsil		-Tolkien??
The sword that was broken and the sword that was reforged(?)
>--------------
Michael Croft                                "Babeheart?  What's it about?"
mailto:Croft@neosoft.com            "It's about a cute little pig that 
http://www.neosoft.com/~croft    slaughters the English" -- Freakazoid
>--------------
    

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 13:15:02 EDT
From: CardSharks <CardSharks@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's T4

In a message dated 98-05-20 10:01:13 EDT, you write:

<< 
 Actually, Imperium games also put out a magazine called Journal of the
 Traveller's Aid Society. It was cancelled after only, I believe, two issues. 
 
 Jay
 
  >>
Primarily because the editor didn't have a good handle on Traveller and kept
getting her friends to write stuff instead of good Traveller writers.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:22:55 +0200
From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
Subject: MT Autofire and RoF

Tue, 19 May 1998 08:58:37 -0500 () yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich) wrote:

>How fast do you go through ammunition during autofire? There is no RoF
>listed for small arms. The only reference I can find to ammo usage is under
>"rapid fire," where it states that all the ammo is used in one round of
>rapid fire. And under the machineguns I find the sentence "Rapid fire uses
>ammo at a rate 3 times that of regular fire." But since it isn't mentioned
>what regular fire usage is for these weapons, this sentence is useless.

Quoting from the Players' Manual, p. 92:

"The number of rounds a weapon uses when fired on full automatic can be estimated from the autofire targets the weapon may hit. If the weapon may hit 2 additional autofire targets, assume the weapon fires four rounds per autofire burst; if 3 additional targets, assume 10 rounds per autofire burst; if 4 additional targets, assume 20 rounds per autofire burst. A weapon may always be fired on a semiautomatic setting, with only one round fired at a time."

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk (home)
mse@oticon.dk (work)
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 08:29:03 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Inside a firing spinal mount

On Wed, 20 May 1998 03:21:34 -0700 dberry@hooked.net writes:
>At 08:49 PM 5/19/98 EDT, you wrote:
>>What would happen if someone was in the tunnel of a spinal mount that 
>was
>>firing?  I'm picturing whoever's inside will be killed, but should 
>there be a
>>chance of a "backfire" or something?
>
>I don't think the system would fire with something as large as a man
>clogging the tube.

I would suspect that a man sized object would result in electrical arcing
in the tunnel, certainly tripping circuit breakers.  I doubt any real
damage would be done though.


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
CEO and Founder, Diasporan Industries, Inc.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
Traveller Geek Code tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+)
pi+ he++ merc++ dt+++
GM:  The Scattered Worlds Traveller PbEM

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 12:44:18 -0500
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Sword World names

>Lesseee....
>Oops, must have lost the list, at least i cant find it. Heres the ones i
can do from memory:

>Gungnir
Odin's magical spear

>Tyrfing -Norse Mythology?

Yup. Forged by dwarves.

>Enos


That stupid sherrif's deputy from the "Dukes of Hazzard"

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 14:06:50 -0400
From: Journey <jjgray@mindspring.com>
Subject: Starflight & Traveller

Does anyone remember the old computer game Starflight? I've been tinkering
with integrating parts of Starflight and Traveller together. I'm curious to
know what people think of the various alien races, especially the main
three (Velox, Elowan and Thrynn) in an Imperium setting.

Jay

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 14:21:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael and MJ Houghton <herveus@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Self Sustaining life support.

Howdy!

> Joe Pettit wrote:
> 
> > If anybody has better numbers, let me know.  I'm sure we'd all
> > appreciate it.
> 
> Don't laugh, now, but Biosphere II, while somewhat of a running joke
> around here, _is_ still a self-contained, sealed environement that
> people lived in for a year. One of the things they discovered was that
> new concrete is a hell of a CO2 sink. a lot more than they thought.
> 
> They have a bunch of references on line, too.
> 
> http://www.bio2.edu/
> 
Well, mostly self-contained and mostly sealed...

yours,
Michael


- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@access.digex.net  | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.access.digex.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 1998 14:21 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: The Imperial Calendar

Now, if I were God-King and could dictate the Imperial
Calendar, I'd salt it with some Vilani influence: namely,
to make the months uniform.

Holiday		001
Month 1		002-036
Month 2		037-071
Break 1		072
Month 3		073-107
Month 4		108-142
Break 2		143
Month 5		144-178
Month 6		179-213
Break 3		214
Month 7		215-249
Month 8		250-284
Break 4		285
Month 9		286-320
Month 10	321-355

Each month has 5 weeks of 7 days: exactly 35 days.
5 breaks are inserted at 70-day intervals.  They have
special day-names and are not included in the months.
Day 001 is Holiday; I have no idea what to name the others.

Rob

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #504
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 20 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 505



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re:Imperial Calendar
re:Imperial Calendar
Re: Active Traveller Campaign
Re: Self Sustaining life support.
Re: Inside a firing spinal mount
Re: Fleshpots and Marketing...
Re: Imperial Calendar 
Sacnoth reference
Re: Sacnoth Reference
Re: Self Sustaining life support.
RE: Starflight & Traveller
Re: Self Sustaining life support.
Re: Inside a firing spinal mount
Rob's Going out of the RPG Business Fire Sale
Re: Starflight & Traveller
Milieu 0 adventure hooks
RE: Sword World names
Re: Sword World names

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 May 1998 14:44 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: re:Imperial Calendar

D'OH!  Why didn't anyone TELL me that there are 365 days
in the year?  Oh heck, I gotta re-do everything.  Bah, why
expend extra effort?  Here:

Holiday		001
Month 1		002-036
Month 2		037-071
Break 1		072
Month 3		073-107
Month 4		108-142
Break 2		143
Month 5		144-178
Month 6		179-213
Break 3		214
Month 7		215-249
Month 8		250-284
Break 4		285
Month 9		286-320
Month 10	321-355
Yule Break      356-365

Rob
IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+
metronet.com/~washi/Tas

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 1998 14:48 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: re:Imperial Calendar

In fact, why have 365 days at all?  360 days is much more
evenly divisible.  And there's also the benefit of living
1.36% "longer" -- say, living to be 70.9 instead of 70.0 years!

Holiday		001
Month 1		002-036
Month 2		037-071
Break 1		072
Month 3		073-107
Month 4		108-142
Break 2		143
Month 5		144-178
Month 6		179-213
Break 3		214
Month 7		215-249
Month 8		250-284
Break 4		285
Month 9		286-320
Month 10	321-355
Yule Break      356-360

Rob
IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+
metronet.com/~washi/Tas

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 18:46:23 +0100
From: Andy Gibson <Andy@yarm.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Active Traveller Campaign

Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>Keep in mind that money has no use value at all, only exchange value.
>Money is valuable only because it can be exchanged for things that
>really are useful. If the people of the frontier your PCs are moving to
>don't have any significant trade with any Imperial planet, their credits
>and solars are worthless out there. The only way to move wealth is to buy
>stuff and bring it with you and hope that you can find someone who think
>it is useful stuff (Unless the planets they are moving to happens to be
>on some kind of artificially inflated metal standard, in which case
>your PCs would be in luck).
>
Oh, yes, this had occurred to me <evil grin>.  This is in fact one of
the most interesting features of the move - in year 0 I am assuming that
even Solars are far from universally accepted, even within the Imperium.
PE allows some simplification since RUs are *not* (neccessarily) money,
but even so it makes moving capital around challenging...  I have based
the rules I have on the PE "foreign investment" rule; range limited to
the "offensive range" for the source world TL and 1 RU at the target
world requires (1 + parsecs range/2) RU spent at the source world.  For
those with more time than money I allow a slower transfer at a better
rate - if folk are actually interested I will post what I have typed up
but it ain't short...

Cheers,

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 12:26:27 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Self Sustaining life support.

Michael and MJ Houghton wrote:

> > They have a bunch of references on line, too.
> >
> > http://www.bio2.edu/
> >
> Well, mostly self-contained and mostly sealed...
> 

Hey it was the 1.0 version, what can I say...;-)

In fact, despite the circus-like nature of the 'first mission', it is a
valuable research tool. They learned a heck of a lot about how little we
know, besides, I don't see anyone _else_ doing work with large isolated
environments, something we _have_ to know about, for instance, before we
even think of sustainable lunar bases or a Mars mission.

Now that Columbia University is running it instead of a flamboyant Texas
billionare (Hmmmm....anyone see 'Contact'? Maybe I'm dim, but I just
made the connection) it can fufill it's promise.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 11:12:43 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Inside a firing spinal mount

...
>I would suspect that a man sized object would result in electrical arcing
>in the tunnel, certainly tripping circuit breakers.  I doubt any real
>damage would be done though.

  Unless, of course, it's an "anti-matter" spinal mount...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 12:21:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Fleshpots and Marketing...

Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>I checked the reference in MT. But, as many things in Traveller, they don't
>explain how organ cloning is done.  Which is to say, the rules don't declare
>which of us is right.  I personally believe that you clone a whole body, 
>then focus the growth on the parts you want.  This produces limbs and 
>organs with vestigial body parts attached.  Definitely not something for 
>the feint of heart.  I also believe that muscle tissue is an organ and 
>thus your "generic mass-o-meat" is still TL 13.

1) The listing says "cloned body part"

2) Using the medical digest in Traveller's Digest 12-14 (cloning, limb 
regeneration and prosthetics) ordinary cloning is TL 9 (which makes 
sense given Dolly the sheep).  Organ cloning is *4* TLs higher so I 
would expect it to be just the organ.  We are talking about a TL
which includes x 100 rate limb regeneration (just hop in the regen 
vat for a few weeks) and similar advances.

3) In the article on it in TD 14 there is no mention of medical rolls 
necessary to separate the cloned body part from the vestigial body.
From everything said in that article a "cloned body part" is just that.

4) As I said before, we are getting close to doing this now with a vat
and some tissue cultures, so I see no reason whatsoever to add in the
icky vestigial body. 

5) A mass of muscle is much less complex than an eye or an arm.  If you
can grow a fully functional arm in a vat at TL 13 (they use this example 
in TD 14) then growing a mass of muscle tissue sans nerves, and bones
should at least be one TL lower.  Note that we need not be talking about
an actual muscle which can then be transplanted, but merely a big hunk of
muscle tissue which would be useless for medical purposes.

>"Adequate nutrients".  Remember that this discussion is about long term, 
>"zero" input food construction.  Human waste products is by no means 
>"adequate nutrients".  If you need these "adequate nutrients" to grow 
>your steak, you can just bypass the middle man and take these nutrients 
>directly.

Quite true.  Using meat cloning technology is a great way to have fresh
food, and gives you *limited* recycling capability, but I entirely agree
that it will not get you anything resembling a closed cycle w/o a *very*
large and extensive system. 


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 15:21:31 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Calendar 

> In fact, why have 365 days at all?  360 days is much more
> evenly divisible.  And there's also the benefit of living
> 1.36% "longer" -- say, living to be 70.9 instead of 70.0 years!

Imperial calendar was 365 days as a holdover from the Rule of Man.  It's the 
'standard' Terran calendar.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 14:20:53 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Sacnoth reference

I believe Sacnoth is a reference to the fantasy writing of Lord Dunsany;
specifically, his short story entitled "The Fortress Unvanquishable,
Save for Sacnoth".

According to one literary reviewer,

"One of Dunsany's favourite universal themes is that of time, both the
romance of the things from which it separates us and our frailty in the
face of its passing. In Sacnoth, describing the door of the Fortress
Unvanquishable, he compares its vastness to that of "the marble quarry,
Sacremona,
from which of old men cut enormous slabs to build the Abbey of the Holy
Tears." He speaks of Queens with jewels in their hair, "each jewel
having a historian all to itself, who wrote no other chronicles all his
days."

Specifics on the publication, if anyone is interested, are:

Lord Dunsany, "The Fortress Unvanquishable Save for Sacnoth," (London:
George Allen & Sons, 1910), in At the Edge of the World, (New York:
Ballantine, 1970)

Don't ask me what the story is about; I haven't read it.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 14:26:57 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Re: Sacnoth Reference

Ah ha! Found the following on a website:

"The Fortress Unvanquishable, Save for Sacnoth" (1908) is one of the
great epic fantasy adventures of all time. In one 20-page short story,
Dunsany launched the "sword and sorcery" genre, sending his hero,
Leothric, on a quest against an evil sorcerer and all his minions: giant
spiders, vampires, succubi, hordes of armed guards, the sword-wielding
sorcerer himself, and not one, not two, but three guardian dragons. 

Best of all, however, is the preliminary adventure young Leothric
undertakes to gain the sword whereby the sorcerer's defenses can be
defeated. Unfortunately, the unhappy hero learns that the sword
currently forms the spine of the great dragon-crocodile Tharagaverug,
and that Tharagavergug is invulnerable except for one weakness: the only
way in which he can die is of starvation. Leothric must fight the dragon
for three days and nights until the beast finally starves to death,
keeping out of reach of its great maw the whole time. Once he has the
sword, the rest is easy - merely a matter of resisting temptation and
using his wits - but imagine the average PC's reaction at being told he
must fight a near-invulnerable dragon one-on-one until it starves! 


The site is at:
http://sun1.bham.ac.uk/dmw571/rpg/dragon1.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 15:32:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael and MJ Houghton <herveus@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Self Sustaining life support.

Howdy!

> Michael and MJ Houghton wrote:
> 
> > > They have a bunch of references on line, too.
> > >
> > > http://www.bio2.edu/
> > >
> > Well, mostly self-contained and mostly sealed...
> > 
> 
> Hey it was the 1.0 version, what can I say...;-)
> 
> In fact, despite the circus-like nature of the 'first mission', it is a
> valuable research tool. They learned a heck of a lot about how little we
> know, besides, I don't see anyone _else_ doing work with large isolated
> environments, something we _have_ to know about, for instance, before we
> even think of sustainable lunar bases or a Mars mission.
> 
> Now that Columbia University is running it instead of a flamboyant Texas
> billionare (Hmmmm....anyone see 'Contact'? Maybe I'm dim, but I just
> made the connection) it can fufill it's promise.
> 
That is a positive development of which I was previously unaware.

yours,
Michael
- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@access.digex.net  | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.access.digex.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 12:40:32 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Starflight & Traveller

I LOVED that game!  I would love to get my hands on it again.  Star Control
is ok, but I think it lacks something that Starflight I & II had.

I think the three races would work fine as minor races.  Pick a planet &
plop 'em down.

Brian

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM
>[mailto:owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM]On Behalf Of Journey
>Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 1998 11:07 AM
>To: traveller@mpgn.com
>Subject: Starflight & Traveller
>
>
>Does anyone remember the old computer game Starflight? I've been tinkering
>with integrating parts of Starflight and Traveller together. I'm curious to
>know what people think of the various alien races, especially the main
>three (Velox, Elowan and Thrynn) in an Imperium setting.
>
>Jay
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 15:47:57 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Self Sustaining life support.

I followed the advise to check out NASA's stuff on life support.
There's a Biomass Production Chamber (BPC) that they're testing (or
building).  Anyway, two chambers will support a crew of 4 indefinitely
for 95% of their food.  One chamber holds 90 sq. meters of growing
area.  Which translates to 45 sq. meters per person.  Another BPC that
has 20 sq. meters of growing space takes up 135 kL which used to be a
hypobaric chamber. Scaling that one up to one person's needs would put
it at about 300 kL.  Which is about twice my estimate, although my
surface area was much larger. But then again, I assumed one tier every
half meter.   I suppose the real question is surface area for growing
plants, which is 45 sq. meters per person.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 15:52:10 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Inside a firing spinal mount

Wouldn't that depend on the diameter of the tube, among other things. My AHL
box cover art makes the mount port look dozens of meters in diameter. Asuming
that a body wouldn't cause other problems; I don't think a physical
obstruction would occur. OTOH I could be dead wrong....

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 15:39:38 -0400
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Rob's Going out of the RPG Business Fire Sale

I have the following role playing game items that I wish to make
available.  This is kind of a going out of business fire sale, since I
haven't played an RPG in over two years and I don't see any sessions on
the horizon.

This will be a bid based sale.  The bid will run from Today until June
1, 1998.  The minimum increment is $1.00 per item.  All prices in USD.
Buyer will pay for the shipping of their choice and it will be added to
the sale price.  Payment is by pre-payment.

There are a few rare items in here so, please read it carefully.  The
initial post is going to all outlets, future updates will be at

http://www.mpgn.com/~rwm/rpg-sale.html and rec.games.frp.marketplace.
So don't loose this post!

Without further ado:
Shape codes:
    LN      Like New            Minor edge wear or less
    VG      Very good Condition Some edge wear, corners nicked.
    G       Good condition      Used, but still in good shape
    F       Fair                Marked up, pages loose, etc.
    BTH     Quite Worn          Falling apart, torn covers, heavy use
    
Most all items have my name in them.  Boxed sets are for the most part
whole, but I can't guarantee that so I am marking their condition one
level lower than they are.  Opening Bid is 50% of MSRP for known prices, 
best guess if I don't know.

System                                  Cond    Open    Curr    Email
Dungeons and Dragons
    Book of Marvelous Magic             VG      $5.00
    Monster & Treasure Assortment       G       $3.00
    The Rogues Gallery                  G       $3.00
    
Advanced Dungeons and Dragons
    Manual of the Planes                G       $6.00
    Greyhawk Adventures                 VG      $7.00
    Referee's Screen                    G       $3.00
    Forgotten Realms Campaign Set       G       $8.00
    Wilderness Survival Guide           VG      $7.00
    Birthright Boxed Set                G       $15.00  $15.00  chrisb@
    Dungeon Master's Design Kit         VG      $4.00
    Adv N2 The Forest Oracle            VG      $2.00
    Adv I2 Tomb of the Lizard King      VG      $2.00
    Adv I4 Oasis of the White Palm      VG      $2.00
    Adv U2 The Sinister Secret of       VG      $2.00
        Salt Marsh
    Book of Lairs                       VG      $6.00

*** SPECIAL ***
    Deities and Demigods, 1st Ed.       G       $75.00
    w/ Cthulhu & Melnibonean Mythos, Bound Upside Down
    I'm really not interested in selling it but I am
    testing the market.
*** SPECIAL ***
    
    
Advanced Dungeons and Dragons 2nd Ed
    Players Handbook                    VG      $9.00
    Dungeon Master's Guide              LN      $12.00
    Dungeon Master's Guide              BTH     $2.00
    Encyclopedia Magica Vol 1           VG      $10.00
    Encyclopedia Magica Vol 2           VG      $10.00
    Tome of Magic                       G       $5.00
    The Complete Fighter's Handbook     VG      $9.00
    The Complete Book of Villains       LN      $9.00
    The Complete Druid's Handbook       LN      $9.00
    The Complete Paladin's Handbook     VG      $9.00
    The Complete Book of Elves          VG      $9.00
    The Complete Thief's Handbook       VG      $9.00
    The Complete Psionics Handbook      F       $3.00
    (The book is loose from the binding,
    other than that, it is VG)
    The Complete Wizard's Handbook      VG      $9.00
    Book of Artificats                  LN      $10.00
    Monster Mythology                   VG      $9.00
    Monsterous Compendium (Loose leaf   G       $15.00
    Binder + FG Realms, Spelljammer,
    and Outerplanes
    Monsterous Compendium Mystara       LN      $9.00
    Monsterous Compendium Annual Vol 1  LN      $9.00
    Monsterous Compendium Planescape    LN      $9.00
    The City of Greyhawk Boxed Set      VG      $9.00   $9.00   chrisb@
    Dark Sun Boxed Set                  G       $10.00

Top Secret
    Boxed Set (Version 2)               VG      $10.00
    (Box is a bit worn, but the insides are like new)
    
Gamma World

    Rule Book (original version)        G       $6.00
    
Amazing Engine
    System Guide                        LN      $5.00
    Bughunters                          LN      $9.00

Dragon Magazine
    Issue #59                           G       $1.00
    Issue #64 (I think, cover is        BTH     $1.00
    missing.  Inside Vol 7, Issue 2 Aug 1982)
    Issue #66                           G       $1.00
    Issue #67                           G       $1.00
    Issue #68                           G       $1.00
    Issue #72                           F       $1.00
    Issue #85                           G       $1.00       
    Issue #91                           VG      $1.00
    Issue #127                          VG      $1.00
    Issue #166                          VG      $1.00
    Issue #200 Spc Collectors Ed.       VG      $3.00
    Weather in the World of Greyhawk    G       $1.00
    (Pull out from a dragon magazine)
    Citadel by the Sea (adv Oct 83 issue) G     $1.00
    Best of Dragon Vol 2.               G       $1.00
    
    
Judges Guild D&D Items
    Winderlands of the Magic Realm      F       $2.00
    (may not be complete)
    The Unknown Gods                    F       $2.00
    Castle Book II                      G       $2.00
    The Book of Treasure Maps           G       $2.00
    The Book of Ruins                   VG      $2.00
    Portals of Irontooth                VG      $2.00
    
Traveller (Classic)
    Book 0 An Introduction to Traveller VG      $2.00
    Intro Adv. The Imperial Fringe      VG      $2.00
    Understanding Traveller             VG      $0.50
    Spinward Marches Campaign           VG      $3.00
    The Traveller Adventure             G       $8.00
    Rules Booklet                       G       $5.00
    Charts and Tables                   G       $5.00
    Tarsus Boxed Set (w/Belt Strike     F       $3.00
    boxed set innards)
    
MegaTraveller
    Players' Manual                     G       $4.00
    Referee's Manual                    G       $4.00
    Imperial Encyclopedia               G       $4.00
    Rebellion Sourcebook                VG      $6.00
    Referee's Companion (Copy 1)        LN      $6.00
    Referee's Companion (Copy 2)        LN      $6.00
    KnightFall (Adventure)              VG      $5.00
    
    
Traveller The New Era
    TNE Rule Book                       VG      $14.00
    Referee's Screen                    VG      $2.00
    Players Forms                       VG      $2.00
    Reformation Coalition Equip Guide   VG      $10.00
    Path of Tears (Star Viking Src Bk)  VG      $9.00
    World Tamer's Handbook              VG      $7.00
    Star Vikings                        VG      $7.00
    The Regency Sourcebook              VG      $10.00
    Fire Fusion and Steel               VG      $8.00
    
Dangerous Journeys
    Mythus (rule book)                  LN      $14.00
    
Challenge Magazine
    Issue 31                            F       $1.00
    Issue 32                            VG      $2.00
    Issue 33                            VG      $2.00
    Issue 75                            LN      $2.00
    
GURPS
    3rd Ed Basic Set                    G       $10.00
    Creatures of the Night              LN      $8.00
    Fantasy                             LN      $8.00
    Horror                              LN      $8.00
    Bestiary 2nd Ed                     VG      $7.00
    Grimoire                            LN      $8.00
    Fantasy Bestiary                    G       $6.00
    Magic                               VG      $7.00
    Religion                            LN      $8.00
    Magic Items                         LN      $8.00
    Fantasy GM's Pack                   LN      $6.00
    Blank Character Sheets (20% used)   F       $2.00
    
Space Opera
    Vol 1, Vol 2, Ground & Air Equip,
    Space Marines (Set Sell Only)       G       $10.00
    
Aftermath
    Book 1, Book 2, Book 3, Intro Adv   G       $10.00
    Scenario Pack 1 Into the Ruins (Set Sell Only)     

    
Champions (Note, most of these are in very good condition, but I colored
    the line drawings, thus lowering them to fair condition)
    Champions                           BTH     $2.00
    Champions II                        F       $3.00
    Champions III                       G       $5.00
    Enemies                             F       $3.00
    Enemies II                          F       $3.00
    Enemies III                         F       $3.00
    Gadgets                             G       $5.00
    Champions 3rd Ed                    F       $6.00
    
    
Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0
    Rule Book                           VG      $12.00
    Datascreen                          VG      $3.00
    Night City                          VG      $7.00
    EuroSource                          VG      $6.00
    Solo of Fourtune                    VG      $5.00
    Protect & Serve                     LN      $6.00
    Corporation Report 2020 Vol 1       LN      $6.00
    Corporation Report 2020 Vol 2       LN      $6.00
    Cromebook I                         LN      $6.00
    Cromebook II                        LN      $6.00
    Maximum Metal                       LN      $6.00
    When Gravity Fails Adventure        LN      $6.00
    Night City Stories (Atlas Games)    LN      $6.00
    Chasing the Dragon (Atlas Games)    LN      $6.00
    Interface Magazine Issue 3 Vol 1    LN      $2.00
    Interface Magazine Issue 4 Vol 1    LN      $2.00
    CyberGeneration 2027                VG      $9.00
    
Mekton II (R. Talsorian Games)
    Rule book                           LN      $6.00
   
I.C.E
    Arms Law & Claw Law (loose leaf)    G       $4.00
    Future Law & Tech Law               VG      $8.00
    Campaign & Adventure Guidebook for  G       $1.00
        Middle Earth
    Isengard and the Northern Gondor    G       $5.00
    
Shadowrun
    Hard Back Rule Book                 LN      $15.00
    
Star Trek: The Role Playing Game
    Star Trek III Sourcebook Update     VG      $3.00
        ISBN 0-425-06979-6 (Older, no red stripe)
    Star Trek III Sourcebook Update     VG      $3.00
        ISBN 0-931787-24-6 FASA 700 (W/ Red Stripe)
    Margin of Profit                    LN      $3.00
    The Vanished                        VG      $3.00
    Trader Captains and Merchant Princes VG     $3.00
    The Federation                      G       $4.00
    Stardate #1                         VG      $1.00
    Stardate #2                         VG      $1.00
    
Misc
    Star Trek Starfleet Tech Manual     VG      $8.00
        20th Aniv Version
    Finieous Treasury                   F       $5.00
    The Palladium Book of Contemporary  G       $2.00
        Weapons
    The Silmarillion (J.R.R. Tolkien)   G       $5.00
        Hard Back First American Ed.
        (Missing Dust cover, map present but loose)
    Entertainment Weekly Special        VG      $2.00
        Collectors Ed.  "Star Trek" Fall 1994
        (Star Trek Generations Issue)

Magic the Gathering Cards
    Over 870 Cards various issues       VG      $35.00

Marvel OverPower Card Game              VG      $2.00
    About 75 Cards, looks like a starter set.

SpellFire                               VG      $3.00
    3 Starter Boxes (2 1st Ed, 1 2nd Ed)



Thanks
Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 15:58:56 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Starflight & Traveller

I still have a sega genesis version of that game. It was fun until I got tired
of it...

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 1998 16:15 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Milieu 0 adventure hooks

Howdy all,

Larry Niven's _The Mote in God's Eye_ would make a great adventure
for Milieu 0.  Opinions?

Oh yes -- _Derelict for Trade_, a Solar Queen novel by Sherwood
Smith and Andre Norton.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 15:11:42 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: RE: Sword World names

> Joyeuse           - Joan of Arc's sword
> Durendal          - Charlemagne' s sword
> Beater             -Tolkien (common name for the sword Glamdring)
> Sting		-Tolkien
> Excalibur	-Sword of King Arthur
> Orcrist		-Tolkien
> Biter		-Tolkien (common name for the sword Orcrist)
> Anduril		-Tolkien
> Iron		-Metal to forge Swords
> Narsil		-Tolkien
> Bronze		-Metal to Forge Swords
> Mithril		-Metal to forge Swords, Tolkien
> Steel		-Metal to forge Swords
> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 08:49:33 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Sword World names

At 06:19 PM 20/05/98 +0200, Volker A. Greimann wrote:

>Oops, must have lost the list, at least i cant find it. Heres the ones i
can do from memory:
>
>Hrunting	-Norse Mythology
>Mjolnir		-Norse Mythology, Hammer of Thor
>Gungnir
>Tizon
>Dyrwin
>Colada

>Joyeuse
This was one of Roland's swords

>Durendal
>Gram
These two are from Norse mythology

>Tyrfing		-Norse Mythology?
>Hofud

>Beater
Sister sword to Biter

>Sacnoth
>Sting		-Tolkien
>Excalibur	-Sword of King Arthur
>Orcrist		-Tolkien

>Biter
This is the nickname for either Orcrist or her sister blade

>Anduril		-Tolkien?
Narsil new name after being reforged, IIRC

>Iron		-Metal to forge Swords
>Narsil		-Tolkien??
>Bronze		-Metal to Forge Swords
>Mithril		-Metal to forge Swords, Tolkien
>Steel		-Metal to forge Swords
>Enos

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #505
**********************************

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       8   B        3 4  _	 !   54E3BCD5B5EFD111B5B600207811728A  x  "         #     &      )     .     1       PCDFEB09   J       8Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 21 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 507



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Cu-Seeme and ICQ
Re: Rob's Going out of the RPG Business Fire Sale
RE: Starflight & Traveller
Re: Marc Miller's T4
Re: Marc Miller's T4
Re: Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments (tending towards off topicness)
Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Governments (tending towards off topicness)
RE: Fleshpots and Marketing...
Re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)
Re: Ongoing discussion on Gurps: Traveller
Re: Milieu 0 adventure hooks
Re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)
Re: Fleshpots and Marketing...
Re: My FF&S spreadsheet
Re: Sword World names
Re: Fleshpots and Marketing...
The Imperial Calender
Re: Marc Miller's T4 News Group
Re: My FF&S spreadsheet

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 22:07:07 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Cu-Seeme and ICQ

Who was the person who wanted to run the game over Cu-Seeme and icq?
  I have a question.



- --
Robert the Lonely

Http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/4467

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 23:26:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: Rob's Going out of the RPG Business Fire Sale

> >Dragon Magazine
> >    Issue #59                           G       $1.00
> 
>   IIRC, that's one of their special Traveller issues.

Thats probably why I still have it.  I only kept Traveller
issues and a hand full of others.

Rob

- -- 
Rob Miracle
rwm@mpgn.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 23:22:19 -0400
From: Journey <jjgray@mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Starflight & Traveller

At 12:40 PM 5/20/98 -0700, Brian wrote:
>I LOVED that game!  I would love to get my hands on it again.  Star Control
>is ok, but I think it lacks something that Starflight I & II had.
>
>I think the three races would work fine as minor races.  Pick a planet &
>plop 'em down.

Actually, I'm borrowing more from the game than just the races. I am also
borrowing a little of the plot. Basically, my idea was to have a world that
was experimentally colonized by four races (human, veloxi, elowan and
thrynn) before it went into the long night. So, hundreds of years later,
they only have vague legends about being from other worlds. I was curious
if anyone had an idea on character creation rules for the three races. For
those of you who don't know Starflight here's a summary.

Veloxi - Insectoid race with two arms and four legs. In the game they excel
at engineering and science but are poor in medical and communications. I
plan on giving them a fairly group oriented mentality (in fact, in their
original form the Veloxi have a civil bur/hive government form in some ways
similar to the First Imperium). 

Elowan - A plant based life form with three tentacle like arms. Each
tentacle splits at the end to perform grabbing and manipulation functions.
They excel in communications and medicine. The Elowan are generous in
nature and highly empathic. I was planning on giving them a commune like
philosophy (okay, I'll admit it. I stole some ideas for their society from
the Pkunk in Starcontrol II :) ).

Thrynn - A reptillian/saurus race with powerful legs weak arms. Think
sentient raptors and you get the right ideas. They excel in communications,
but for different reasons than the Elowan. Where the Elowan are empathic,
the Thrynn are naturally adept at solving complex logic systems such as
language. Their society tends to be based on technology and strength. The
more tech and science a Thrynn has under their belt, the more highly
regarded they are.


Jay

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 23:27:30 -0400
From: Journey <jjgray@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's T4

At 06:18 PM 5/20/98 -0400, Bill wrote:

>I hope SOK's magazine, The Traveller Chronicle (not Journal) is still being
>published; I'm a subscriber...  Their website is alive and well, though, at:
>
>
>http://members.aol.com/swrdknght/sok.htm
>
>I just emailed them for a current issue status.

Unfortunatly, SOK is folding and all their properties, including the
Shadowrun, Earthdawn and Traveller mags are in limbo. I know that both the
Shadowrun and ED editors are trying to buy the rights to put out the
magazine itself. I do not know the status of the Traveller Chronicle.

Jay
Retail Editor, Gaming Intelligence
http://rpg.net/gi/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:15:41 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's T4

At 11:27 PM 20/05/98 -0400, Jay wrote:
>At 06:18 PM 5/20/98 -0400, Bill wrote:
>
>>I hope SOK's magazine, The Traveller Chronicle (not Journal) is still being
>>published; I'm a subscriber...  Their website is alive and well, though, at:
>>
>>
>>http://members.aol.com/swrdknght/sok.htm
>>
>>I just emailed them for a current issue status.
>
>Unfortunatly, SOK is folding and all their properties, including the
>Shadowrun, Earthdawn and Traveller mags are in limbo. I know that both the
>Shadowrun and ED editors are trying to buy the rights to put out the
>magazine itself. I do not know the status of the Traveller Chronicle.

Here is what Harold Hale, editor of the Traveller Chornicle said at the time:


I had anticipated this coming out of the closet, so here is the official
press release.  I would be grateful if someone would also forward it to the
Traveller Mailing List:

April 14, 1998

   After 13 issues and a lot of blood, sweat and tears, Sword of the Knight
Publications has decided to discontinue publication of Traveller Chronicle
and its other RPG magazines.  The decision was based primarily upon Kevin's
desire to pursue other interests, not any pending financial disaster.

   Starjoy Publishing, a company new to the field of RPGs, is currently in
negotiations to take over the publication of Traveller Chronicle.  When
these negotiations are completed, publication will resume immediately with
Traveller Chronicle issue #14.  I will be continuing as editor of the
magazine.

   At this time I do not have any details regarding subscriptions, but rest
assured if you are still owned issues on a subscription, you will be
compensated in some fashion (either monetarily or through having your
subscription continued under the new publisher).

   I look forward to the new relationship with Starjoy, and hope you like
the changes it has in store for the magazine over the next year.  One thing
will not change however, and that is TTC's commitment to supporting
Traveller in all its forms.

   More news as the situation warrants.

Regards,

Harold D. Hale
Editor-in-Chief
Traveller Chronicle

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 22:55:00 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments (tending towards off topicness)

Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> wrote

Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net> wrote

> <much stuff deleted>
> 
> Peter, have you read Swift's "A Modest Proposal" ?

I am sure I have no idea what you mean.  Why would anyone think I was
being less than 100% sincere.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 23:09:12 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Governments (tending towards off topicness)

"John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com> wrote

> Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net> wrote:

> >"Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu> wrote
> 
> >> >As would a per person head tax.  Everyone 
> >> > would have to pay Y thousand dollars in tax. 

> >> A per person head tax is, ironically, the epitome of the term 
> >> "unequal tax burden".

> >No the poverty level women would owe five times as much as the
> >(presumably childless) millionare as kids are not exempt from the 
> >tax.  If the mother wished to avoid her children being sanctioned she 
> >would probably choose to pay their taxes.  Naturally a lifting of 
> >unjust restrictions on child labor would help the children to pay 
> >their own way and a lifting of parental legal responsibility to care 
> >for their children would ensure that parents who chose not to care 
> >for their children would not have to.  
> 
> Hmm, I may be wrong about you.  As parody this is *great* stuff. You 
> truly frighten me if you actually believe this, but if this is parody 
> of the ultra-right then I applaud you.

So should I go on to explain how lifting arbitrary laws against adult
child sex would ensure that children had another source of income, as
prostitutes.  I could also explain that the sanctions against persons
who have not paid the head tax would be lethal and would be contracted
out to save money.  The rich would pay money equal to the head tax
ammount for hunting liscences giving them the right to hunt down and
kill the poor who had not paid the tax.  This would increase revenue,
cleanse the gene pool, and provide for great live action TV shows.

> >[Implicit Darwinian premise - If you do not
> >want to care for your children, I want your children to die off 
> >before they can breed 

> Actually, there's not much Darwinian here, I see lots of Social 
> Darwinism and a bit of Sociobiology 

Well as long as we are ensureing that the poor die or are killed, which
is, of course, a positive social goal, there is no need to quible about
labels.

> >>  That dollar amount just would not be of
> >>  the same level of affordability to the two involved.

> > Yes, so ?

> Hmm, I guess compassion, and social justice are new concepts.

I don't have the faintest idea what you mean.  Ensureing that those who
have demonstrated their inferiority by their poverty do not breed
ensures against future suffering by their descendants.  After all if
they have no descendants the descendants can not lead lives of
suffering.  I am truly motivated only by compassion for these
untermenschen who would lead lives not worth living.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:05:58 +0200
From: "forem" <forem@ctv.es>
Subject: RE: Fleshpots and Marketing...

a las diez horas
- -----Original Message-----
De: Brian Mays <bmays@genscope.com>
Para: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Fecha: mircoles 20 de mayo de 1998 18:08
Asunto: RE: Fleshpots and Marketing...


>> Bzzzt! Not entirely correct. I believe that at *current* TLs we are
>>already capable of cloning certain tissues without growing the whole
>>creature. 'Course, I may be wrong--it's happened before. And my fuzzy
>>memory assures me that if I *am* right, it very definitely is only
>>certain limited types of tissue right now. A steak would be right out
>>... now.
>
>No, you're right.  We are in the experimental stage, but we have
>successfully cloned organs such as the liver.  As long as it's the same
>cell(s) over and over, and not a complex organ, it's do-able.
>
>This is where the GURPS "meat factory" idea comes in.  You aren't cloning
>exact cuts of meat, just a mass of muscle cells.  It will not look pretty,
>but it's meat.
>
>And it is MUCH to early to be discussing this.  I think I need a salad . .
.
>:)
>
>Brian
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:12:48 +0100
From: "Buston, John" <john.buston@eds.com>
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)

>>Here's where piracy becomes "reasonable".  The Starport is on a moon of
>>a large gas giant.  This moon is very close to the GG, perhaps only a
>>few diameters out.  Pirates hide on a different moon/asteroid.  When a
>>starship passes by, they snatch it.  

Two obvious questions. How did they get there undetected?  How do they
hope to get away before the SDBs / missiles can run them down? It's a
very long way to the jump point. 

The logistics are still stacked heavily against them. Moons of GGs are a
very long way apart, in differing orbital planes. Even at their closest
they would be tens of thousands of miles apart. 

Why would you plot an exit vector that took you anywhere near a large
body.  Standard caution would tell you to give it a wide berth.

>>Maneuvering at high speeds through 
>>the orbital masses of a gas giant is dangerous. 

Poetic imagery, but it's not really like that.

The orbital masses are not close together, but light seconds apart. In a
high TL systems there would even be navigation beacons on them. (If they
were close together they wouldn't stay in orbit for very long).

Starships make fuel scoop runs through the upper atmosphere of GGs and
so obviously have the software and sensors for maneuvering close to GGs.

You would never need to come close to a large body apart from your
target.  Though you might want to use the GG for orbital braking, or
acceleration, to speed up you entry/exit time.

At several diameters from the GG the gravitational forces at work are
tiny compared to even a 1G maneuver drive. 

>>If you come in too fast, you may not be able to escape the pull
>> of the gas giant.  Then you're really screwed.

The "surface" gravity of a large GG (e.g. Jupiter) is "only" 2.5G.
Smaller GGs (e.g. Saturn, Uranus, Neptune) have surface gravity around
the 1G mark. So even for a large GG you would only have to be cautious
within 1 or 2 diameters (e.g. when making fuel scoop runs).
Gravitational pull reduces with the square of the distance.

A 3G craft (an SDB perhaps) could actually hide within the atmosphere of
even a large GG. (Wasn't there a piranha class SDB designed to do just
that?).

>The obvious response is where the objective conditions make piracy
>possible, you have a higher investment in escort forces.

With you on that. Though I am not convinced this is one of those places.

>... don't gas giants have brutal electromagnetic fields that
>make settlements on moons near them unlikely ?

And possibly make sensors less reliable or reduce range. So that's how
the pirates managed to sneak in! 

Also the Roche tidal stability limit means there wont be any permanent
moons inside about 2 diameters. You may want to mine the rings though -
these generally lie between 1 and 2 diameters out.

Jupiter's magnetosphere stretches out to somewhere between 25 and 50
diameters, and is 10,000 times as strong as the Earth's. Other GGs
proportionately less. It acts like a giant particle accelerator with
protons zipping around at near light speed.  Radiation levels inside the
stronger parts of it are likely to be hazardous at best. The large moon
IO at 3 diameters out is in the worst of it. You could probably
construct safe habitat at a high TL, though you wouldn't want to go
outside :-)

Note that the outermost moons of Jupiter are over 150 diameters out!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:22:24 +0100
From: "Buston, John" <john.buston@eds.com>
Subject: Re: Ongoing discussion on Gurps: Traveller

> ... GURPS Traveller, for example, uses reactionless drives. ...

then in another mail:

> ... jump drives use fuel ...
> Power plants have changed slightly; they use the GURPS model of a
> plant that doesn't need refuelling for 200 years. Power plant fuel is such
> an infintessimal part of the total fuel on a Traveller starship that this makes
> zero difference.

Er, No. Doesn't this make interstellar travel *without* jump drive
possible in a small ship?

I bet if you did 6Gs for a couple of years, probably less, you could
travel a parsec (ship time - relativistic effects set in after a few
months at 6G) . So when your jump drive fails or you can't refuel your
jump drive you just program the course in your computer, jump in your
emergency low berths and wait it out. If there was the possibility you
would design for it.

Wouldn't this change the basis of ship design, and alter "history"
somewhat?

I bet there are other interesting consequences of this too.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 01:28:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Milieu 0 adventure hooks

In mail you write:

> Howdy all,
>
> Larry Niven's _The Mote in God's Eye_ would make a great adventure
> for Milieu 0.  Opinions?
>
> Oh yes -- _Derelict for Trade_, a Solar Queen novel by Sherwood
> Smith and Andre Norton.

I bought that one recently. It gives an interesting take on piracy. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 01:04:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)

In mail you write:

>> It makes perfect sense; a 400 ton Close Escort to shepherd a few fat
>> traders, they jump together, arriving within a few hours of one
>> another at the destination.

> Due to the vagaries of jump space they could arrive as much as two days
> apart.

Don't forget that it's possible for the astrogators of a group of ships
to do *something* so that when the jump together the spread drops to an
hour or two. 

It's mentioned somewhere in regards to naval task forces. I submit that
merchants with an escort *can* do it, even though it's about as foreign
to them as keeping formation was to merchant ships in convoys during
WWI and WWII.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 23:55:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fleshpots and Marketing...

In mail you write:

> Buston, John wrote:
>
>>> Cloning would still require raw biomass to build from.  If you're
>>> going to store biomass, you may as well extrude processed biomass
>>> into tubes, flats, or various other shapes and add flavouring,
>>> color and texture.

>> Except that you are getting your biomass for free, from the sanitary
>> system.

>> Just don't tell the passengers that this really is the same beef they
>> ate yesterday :)
>
>   So, you're saying that you're recombining the CO2 and the rest of
> the fiber back into carbohydrates. TNSTAFFL. Yes, this can be done.
> But I believe its called plant growth.  It requires moderately large
> tanks relative to the size of the creature its supporting.  It does
> however refresh your air and could provide you with vegetable
> biomatter.

> This actually brings up the question.  Once you've got a biosystem
> going, how much of a "garden" do you need to support one human
> indefinitely?  Including carbon dioxide recycling and food.  Assume
> unlimited supply of energy (light) and recycled water.

A *lot*. Check out the Biosphere II project. 

If all you want is air recycling and partial sewage and water recycling
you can use algae. But this is definitely "emergency rations" type
material. And you'll have a *lot* of waste products building up.

But I have to clear up some stuff about "growing" meat. It's *not*
cloning. It's "tissue culturing" which has been around for a long time.
There are several problems though. First, you have to provide nutrients
and carry away wastes in a manner that the cells you are culturing can
handle. This amounts to emulating the circulatory system, digestive
system, and the kidneys. This can be done.

Second, and not yet solved, you have to convince the growing tissue to
have *structure* rather than be a mass of undifferentiated cells. Think
of "meat" with *less* texture than ground beef. Note that this even
affects the *taste*. You need to control things like muscle fiber size,
fat marbling, etc.

Third, if you do get the stuff to match the structure of muscle tissue,
you have to "excercise" it. Veal is an example of what beef that gets
no exercise would be like. Too much exercise and the meat gets tough.
And this requires some connective tissues (sinews) to attach these
muscles to something so that they'll be working against resistance.

Most likely way of accomplishing this would be to go back to the
"cloning" idea. You need to get a way to cause the growth of an entire
*structure* (a muscle, or an organ like liver or kidney). Note that if
you can do this, you can also regenerate damage to people!

So "vat" meat isn't terribly likely until regeneration is. Using
"tissue culture" will get you something that needs a lot of processing,
and you'll wind up with stuff about as meat like as bologna, or some of
the soy protein products.

What *I* expect you'll have as you move up the scale is something like this:

1. algae
   This gives you air recycling and a food supplement. Water and sewage
   require processing. Air also requires treatment to remove "trace"
   impurities. 
2. algae and some small aquatic animals that eat it. This gives you
   some real meat (fish, or perhaps some sort of amphibian, such as
   newts or frogs). See Bujold's "Ethan of Athos" for a good
   description of a space habitat using essentially this method.
3. hydroponics or aeroponics. Hydroponics grows the plants with their
   roots in a liquid nutrient solution. Aeroponics avoids the large
   mass of solution by letting the roots growth onto a mesh substrate
   (think fine plastic netting) and using a combination of high
   humidity, drip irrigation, and possibily fine sprays to both keep
   the roots wet and transport nutrients. This has the advantage that
   rather than rows of tanks, you have sheets of netting with rows of
   plants growing up them. You get more plants in the same volume and
   less waste mass. You can even put netting on walls in otherwise
   unused space giving both decoration and extra air/food space.
   You can grow most plants that'll fit into the available space this
   way. Anything from wheat to watermelon.
4. hydropnics/aeroponics plus small animals. Likely animals are fish
   (if you can spare the mass for the tanks), "game hens", guinea pigs,
   rabbits, and chickens. And yes, guinea pigs *are* a food animal.
   They are commonly raised for food in South America, especially Peru.

All of the above require extensive processing of sewage into nutrients
for the plants. And likely moderate amounts of fertilizer. They also
still require disposing of waste materials and filtering the air.

At this point, we've covered everything likely to be found in a ship.
From here on out, we are talking about what you'd find in habitats, and
on airless worlds. 

5. Simple ecosystem. Based on current "natural" sewage treatment
   technology. You run the waste water through a series of artifical
   marshlands. The plants (not edible) are actually quite good at
   filtering out toxins and metals that the bacterial life in the
   marshes can't handle. I believe there are even a couple of species
   where you harvest the plants, burn them to relaese the CO2/H20 and
   process the ash to extract worthwhile amounts of metals. In the
   final stages of the marshes you have ponds where you raise fish
   (tilpia). This will handle most of your sewage and a lot of your
   air. You'll only need to filter the air and dispose of "toxic"
   wastes. 

6. multiple ecosystems. This is where the Biosphere II people are
   trying to work. Multiple land and water based ecosystems process
   different items in the air and water. All you have to get rid of are
   toxic wastes.

7. like 6, but with lots and lots of animals.

8. planetary ecosystems. Wide variety of ecologies, can handle
   reasonable amounts of almost anything except industrial wastes. And
   can handle small amounts of those.

Obviously, #8 is "we terraformed the planet" or "we can live in the
existing ecosystem". I'd say Vland is about 7.5 on this scale.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 01:29:16 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: My FF&S spreadsheet

In mail you write:

> Working on the next version of my spreadsheet, and I hit a snag...
>
> Any of you Excel gurus out there now how to round a number to a specific
> multiple in Excel 5.0?
>
> In Quattro Pro and Excel 97 (with the Analysis tools) you would use the
> MROUND function...
>
> I need to round a number to the nearest .5. When I converted this version of
> the sheet to Excel, it broke one formula (I develop this in Quattro...).

If all else fails, try this:

	round(x*2)/2

That'll round to the nearest .5 with an ordinary round function.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 01:18:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Sword World names

In mail you write:

> Colada

I think this is the sword of "El Cid"

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 00:39:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fleshpots and Marketing...

In mail you write:

>> There are "zoom wombs" that can do the cloning pretty fast.  It's a
>> few weeks to grow a full human body to maturity.  I suspect a
>> sirloin would take far less.

> "A few weeks" sounds awefully fast for a human body.  The natural
> method takes about 2 weeks an ounce.  I really doubt that technology
> is going to improve that by a factor of two to three thousand.  And
> you can't grow a "sirloin", you've got to grow the whole cow.  Just
> like you can't clone an arm or eye, you've got to grow the whole body
> then transplant.

Not necessarily. Once we figure out how genes get "switched off" so
that cells in the "arm" area grow into arm cells rather than intestines
or something, then we can do that to selectively grow tissues. The
trick will be that we'll have to hook in a circulatory system. Or else
grow a heart as well as whatever else we are growing.

But as I said in my other post, that'll happen at the same tech level
that allows *regenerating* body parts, because it's essentially the
same technology.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 13:13:25 +0200
From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
Subject: The Imperial Calender

Wed, 20 May 1998 15:21:31 -0400 "Keven R. Pittsinger"
<jamstar@glasscity.net> wrote:

> Imperial calendar was 365 days as a holdover from the Rule of Man.  It's
>the 'standard' Terran calendar.

Almost true, but not quite. According to Solomani & Aslan, p. 23, the
Imperial calender is based upon the rotation of Capital, which has a 24
hour rotation period and a 364.97 day year.

The difference is slight - less than 7 hours per year, which means that the
calenders become a day out of synch every 2,000 years.

Off course, this information is presented as coming from the Solomani
themselves and may thus be biased; but if a bias was in effect, I would
have suspected the Solomani to claim that the Imperial Calender was lifted
from the Terran, not from Capital itself.

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk (home)
mse@oticon.dk (work)
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 09:04:07 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's T4 News Group

amarin@walldata.com writes:
>Wouldn't it be cool if Imperium Games Inc. published a news group?
>Games.rec.traveller.t4
>It would certainly be easier than the old clunky mailing list or web based
>forum available now. 

We've had this debate at least twice since I joined the list.  Not all
members have access to newsgroups, and those that have access can't
necessarily get every newsgroup.  

(Most of my group aren't on the net at all, of those that are only one has
access to newsgroups. Two more have email/web access, and eight have no
net access.)

To briefly summarize, no one is stopping a newsgroup being formed, but
almost no one wants the list shut down either.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 09:23:02 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: My FF&S spreadsheet

Leonard Said;
>> I need to round a number to the nearest .5. When I converted this version of
>> the sheet to Excel, it broke one formula (I develop this in Quattro...).
>
>If all else fails, try this:
>
>	round(x*2)/2
>
>That'll round to the nearest .5 with an ordinary round function.

You're just missing the decimal parameter.  try;

     round(x*2,1)/2

The ",1" tells it to round to one decimal place.  Otherwise I get a "Too
few arguments" error.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #507
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 21 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 508



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Marc Miller's T4 
Re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)
Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Governments (tending towards off topicness)
Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments
Fusion Fuel Requirements?
Re: Fusion Fuel Requirements?
RE: Sword World names
Re: Imperial Tax Policy and *shudder* Piracy
Re: Ongoing discussion on Gurps: Traveller
Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Governments (tending towards off topicness)
Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments
Re: horror Traveller adventures
Re: Marc Miller's T4
RE: Inside a firing spinal mount
Re: Milieu 0 adventure hooks
RE: Marc Miller's T4
Re: Ongoing discussion on Gurps: Traveller
[T98#504] Starflight & Traveller
Re: Inside a firing spinal mount
Re: [T98#504] Starflight & Traveller 
Re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)
Re: Ongoing discussion on Gurps: Traveller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 09:27:14 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's T4 

>Traveller Journal was cancelled because the publisher Swords of the Knight
>went out of business, I believe.

Swords of the Knight published Terran Traveller Chronicle, which will be
continuing under new owners (right Harold?).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 12:00:02 +0000
From: "Jens.Maskus" <Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)

On Tue, 19 May 1998 16:41:10 +0100, Buston, John wrote:


>
>Conclusion:
>
>All this leads me to conclude that an extra G of maneuver drive is much
>more useful than a second laser turret. Perhaps even more useful than
>your first turret? A high G drive makes you much less attractive to
>potential molesters than does a standard turret.
>


Everything is fine. But consider the REAL SOLAR 100 DIAMETER is around 4.5 AU from Sol so it is a 
very long journey at one gee from earth to jumpzone even using a running jump manuver. You count 
the days not hours.

Jens Maskus

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 09:37:22 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Governments (tending towards off topicness)

>> Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net> wrote:
>  I am truly motivated only by compassion for these
>untermenschen who would lead lives not worth living.

I am simulateously comforted by the sure signs of (very dry) parody and
discomfited by the fact that I was so certain there was a person who
actually held these views around the list.  A sign that such veiws are not
so farfetched today as I might hope.

All of which is, of course, exactly the point of such dry parody.  Well done.

Would you like an olive with your Gin-I mean Martini sir?

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 09:39:03 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
>Politicians and demagogues rant and rave over 'welfare queens'

Happens here too.  In British Colombia the provincial government was
planning on spending more money to catch welfare fraud than they _highest_
estimate of welfare fraud. Meanwhile they were laying off the accountants
who went about collecting unpaid corporate taxes, when there were more
unpaid taxes from dividend-paying corporations than the highest estimates
of welfare fraud.  Somehow this was supposed to make sense.

At the same time they were trying to trick welfare recipients into signing
away not only their own civil rights but also those of their families, via
a 'waiver' so general that it was basically a carte blanche and that was
condemmed by the government's own privacy commission.

ObTrav: Hunt through the papers for different laws, then use them against
the players. For example, the above waiver, if signed as part of, say,
docking procedures, would give the local government the right to inquire
about all financial transaction past present AND future, forever, or the
player and his/her family. Throw in an anti-conspiracy law that defines
any group of more than five people as an association and hold the group
responsible for the misconduct of a single member, and you can hassle the
whole party for a misfiled form from the past.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 09:51:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rob Dean <robdean@access.digex.net>
Subject: Fusion Fuel Requirements?

OK, are there any physicists out there that would like to lead me through
this one slowly?  I see that the issue of power plant fuel consumption has
raised its ugly head again.  I last worked this out around 1991 when _the_
rules were MT.  At that time, the discussion was over the question of
wwhether or not were were using a 4 H --> He fusion reaction, or a 2 D -->
He reaction.

At that time, I recall calculating that a large TL15 power plant produced
more energy than would be available from fusion of the naturally occuring
deuterium at the specified rate of fuel flow, and that _some_ hydrogen fusion 
was necessary to achieve the power outputs necessary.

So, is a 200-year fuel supply actually reasonable?

On reactionless thrusters: I've always tried to take the commonsense approach
in my games--that the rules only cover "reasonable" situations and cannot
be expected to extrapolate to "unreasonable" situations correctly. I also
recall that I once worked out that the kinetic energy of a ship travelling
near C would have required energy input of something like 30% of the initial
mass of the ship in hydrogen, fused at 100% efficiency.

Any comments? Calculations?

Rob Dean
robdean@access.digex.net
(Stirring in cold sleep again...)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 09:26:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Fusion Fuel Requirements?

Rob Dean writes:
<For fusion....this looks like a GURPS traveller issue>
> So, is a 200-year fuel supply actually reasonable?
Regardless of whether or not you do pure hydrogen fusion, a fusion reactor has
a sealed fuel supply, so if it needs deuterium, it's pure deuterium in the
fuel.  At perfect efficiency, deuterium fusion is roughly 1e+5 kWh/gm, working
out to roughly .9 gram/year/kW.  As a GURPS fusion reactor only weighs .2 lb/kW
(91 grams) 200 years is twice its mass; pure protium fusion would be just
barely possible, if dubious.  Probably fair to give a fusion reactor a 20 year
lifespan, though.
> 
> On reactionless thrusters: I've always tried to take the commonsense
> approach in my games--that the rules only cover "reasonable" situations
> and cannot be expected to extrapolate to "unreasonable" situations
> correctly. I also recall that I once worked out that the kinetic energy of a
> ship travelling near C would have required energy input of something like
> 30% of the initial mass of the ship in hydrogen, fused at 100% efficiency.

Reactionless drives (in GURPS) and thruster plates (in Traveller) violate
conservation of energy at speeds of 100 meters/second or below.  A perfect
fusion thruster (unlikely) will generate about 4 million seconds of thrust, so
hitting 0.5C requires roughly 98% of the mass of your ship to be fusion
reaction mass, and it's only the 2% which remains which is actually going at
.5C.  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 09:40:38 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Sword World names

>
>In mail you write:
>
>> Colada
>
>I think this is the sword of "El Cid"
>
>-- 

Which explains the little sword in my Pina Colada.  :)

Brian

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 17:44:45 +0100
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Re: Imperial Tax Policy and *shudder* Piracy

Ian or Katts wrote:
> First of all, debt is faster to raise than taxes. If, for
> example, the IN needs a couple of dozen gigacredits to support
> a war, then it just writes IOUs, which will be backed by the
> Imperium as and when time permits. It's a lot easier than
> declaring the new tax, and then actually getting the money off
> them.

Damm, should have thought of that.  Good point.



> With the big issue, I should have been a bit more specific ...
> what happens if a world disputes their tax rates, claiming high
> level corrpution perhaps, and wont pay up at the new rates ?

If there are accusasions of  corrupt  petty  officials  then  the
agrieved world can lodge a complaint to the MoJ, if corrupt naval
personal or scouts then the world can make a complaint  to  those
organisations,  and  if  a  corrupt  noble  then  the  world  can
_petition_ that noble's leige.

However, failure to pay will result ultimately  in  interdiction.
Before that stage is reached there could be  fines,  a  temporary
blockade, or the Imperium could covertly encourage  a  change  in
the world's government!

There _is_ a problem with this set up when the world's government
is being contested for a prolonged period of time ... such  as  a
long-running local civil war.  If the identity of the  legitimate
world government is in question then who gets  stiffed  with  the
tax bill?

The existence of a grievence, the appeals process, the  penalties
used, the compromises reached, ... this is the stuff of a nobles'
campaign (heavy on the politiking).



> Wait a second ... smuggling implies the taxation and/or banning
> of commodities. Off the top of my head, I can think of only nukes,
> slaves and (perhaps) military weapons as Imperially Discouraged
> items of commerce.

In this case its the former ... the smuggling is _not_ contraband
items but merely to avoid tax.  Since planets pay the tax and not
traders you might think there is no  incentive.  But  imagine  if
the world's trade department gets  involved ... "There's  Mcr 2.5
in tax due on this cargo, Mr Solo, we'll pay you half that if you
pick the cargo up outside the  starport  and  avoid  the  customs
check."



Regards PLST
<tagless>
___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 12:42:03 -0400
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Ongoing discussion on Gurps: Traveller

>> ... GURPS Traveller, for example, uses reactionless drives. ...
>
>then in another mail:
>
>> ... jump drives use fuel ...
>> Power plants have changed slightly; they use the GURPS model of a
>> plant that doesn't need refuelling for 200 years. Power plant fuel is such
>> an infintessimal part of the total fuel on a Traveller starship that thismakes
>> zero difference.
>
>Er, No. Doesn't this make interstellar travel *without* jump drive
>possible in a small ship?


It is mentioned in the manuscript that while power plants do not require
refuelling, they are touchy and require maintainence once  a year. They WILL
fail if they don't get this maintainence; thus the effect is the same. I
should have mentioned that but 1.) I don't know how much I'm actually
allowed to mention and 2.) i didn't think about it at the time.


>
>I bet if you did 6Gs for a couple of years, probably less, you could
>travel a parsec (ship time - relativistic effects set in after a few
>months at 6G) . So when your jump drive fails or you can't refuel your
>jump drive you just program the course in your computer, jump in your
>emergency low berths and wait it out. If there was the possibility you
>would design for it.



You can do that in T4, very likely, since reactionless drives exist and
power plants have fuel for a year. But many stars will just be too far apart
for that to be practical, and a lot of people would rather avoid the
relativistic effect. But it wouldn't surprise me if exploration ships were
designed with extra power plant fuel for that very reason.

And I don't think it will have much effect on ship design, because they
won't let it. The ships that are being built work just like Traveller ships.
People like me are simply going to gloss over details like that.

allen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 98 19:41 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Governments (tending towards off topicness)

Moin Peter Newman,

> I am truly motivated only by compassion for these
> untermenschen who would lead lives not worth living.

	ObTrav: Major Race = Herrenrasse
		Minor Race = Untermenschen

	Just to bring it back on topic : How facist had the 3I been ?

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 11:19:22 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments

Rob Prior wrote:

> ObTrav: Hunt through the papers for different laws, then use them against
> the players. For example, the above waiver, if signed as part of, say,
> docking procedures, would give the local government the right to inquire
> about all financial transaction past present AND future, forever, or the
> player and his/her family. Throw in an anti-conspiracy law that defines
> any group of more than five people as an association and hold the group
> responsible for the misconduct of a single member, and you can hassle the
> whole party for a misfiled form from the past.

Ooooh, Ouch! Those are the kinds of actions that make the players come
back and nuke the place from orbit....

Better yet..the locals sieze their starship, possesions and all their
cash as 'proceeds from illegal activities'. 

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 11:36:06 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: horror Traveller adventures

I've done one successful horror adventure in Traveller.  It involved the
Annic Nova.  One of my all-time favorite stories is "Nightflyers" (by
George R.R. Martin?), which involves powerful telekinetic "ghosts"
inhabiting a mysterious tramp freighter.. add in some elements from the TD
adventure "The Possession Ball" and you get..

The characters are doing system cartography when they find the derelict
ship, of unknown, and bizarre, design.  On-board they find that the ship is
equipped as a luxurious yacht, filled with treasures.  Evidence dates the
ship to the very early years of the long night.  The bridge is sealed off.

In two of the rooms, bodies are found.. dried mummies, really, after two
millennia in vacuum..  near the bodies are crystal balls.  The ship can be
brought back on line from engineering, and life support restored.  The
characters are probably rejoicing over their find.. the ship and it's
contents are easily worth hundreds of millions of credits.  Then the
nightmares start...

The ship is inhabited by two Solomani psionic "spirits", that reside in the
small crystal spheres.  One is completely psychotic, and will try to kill
the characters.. the other is weaker, but will try to warn the characters
off.  Due to their current state (and age), they can't communicate
directly, but use images plucked from the character's memories, either good
or bad.  Both entities are strong telepaths, but a normal g-field will
severely restrict their abilities...  Let the games begin.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 11:41:42 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's T4

At 01:15 PM 5/20/98 EDT, Marc wrote:

>Primarily because the editor didn't have a good handle on Traveller and kept
>getting her friends to write stuff instead of good Traveller writers.

It didn't help that those of us who wrote for it were lied to.  I was told
that my check was "sitting on the desk" and could I mail out my work for
JTAS #28.  Never got paid.  Also, my one article stressed that it was a
non-combat scenario.. what was the artwork?  A military firefight!

*grumble*
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 11:38:40 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: RE: Inside a firing spinal mount

At 08:57 AM 5/20/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>>I don't think the system would fire with something as large as a man
>>clogging the tube.

>
>But how long would he be as large as a man???  :)

I think the system would complain that "something is warping my nice
magnetic field, and I can't work under these conditions" and go of in an
electronic pout.
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 11:45:06 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Milieu 0 adventure hooks

At 04:15 PM 5/20/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Howdy all,
>
>Larry Niven's _The Mote in God's Eye_ would make a great adventure
>for Milieu 0.  Opinions?

Gah.. releasing the Moties on the Third Imperium?  You are a sick person..
I admire that.

Using Mote as a framework for a Droyne adventure might be nice.. perhaps a
group of Droyne who *know* theiy're the decendants of the Ancients, and
have developed a religion around the shame of the Final War.

- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 13:54:25 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Marc Miller's T4

>It didn't help that those of us who wrote for it were lied to.  I was told
>that my check was "sitting on the desk" and could I mail out my work for
>JTAS #28.  Never got paid.  Also, my one article stressed that it was a
>non-combat scenario.. what was the artwork?  A military firefight!
>
>*grumble*
>--
>

If there was one thing Imperium excelled at, it was blatant lies.

Brian

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 13:59:38 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Ongoing discussion on Gurps: Traveller

Thu, 21 May 1998 10:22:24 +0100, "Buston, John" <john.buston@eds.com>
Subject: Re: Ongoing discussion on Gurps: Traveller
> > ... jump drives use fuel ...
> > Power plants have changed slightly; they use the GURPS model of a
> > plant that doesn't need refuelling for 200 years. Power plant fuel is such
> > an infintessimal part of the total fuel on a Traveller starship that this
> makes
> > zero difference.
 
> Er, No. Doesn't this make interstellar travel *without* jump drive
> possible in a small ship?

Well, I'm not sure that a scout ship, if you took out the
jump drive stuff, couldn't do a parsec STL.  However,
there is an issue about being able to just drive back
from a misjump (which has been raised regarding how
reliable plans to recover from a misjump in T4 are).
I have advocated that there should be something to
limit endurance....
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 21:26:44 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T98#504] Starflight & Traveller

On Wed, 20 May 1998 14:23:29 -0400, Journey
<jjgray@mindspring.com> wrote:

>Does anyone remember the old computer game Starflight? I've been tinkering
>with integrating parts of Starflight and Traveller together. I'm curious to
>know what people think of the various alien races, especially the main
>three (Velox, Elowan and Thrynn) in an Imperium setting.

I have some basic problems with the (insectoid) Velox and the
(plant-like) Elowan - they seem improbable from the biological
PoV.  The (saurian) Thrynn are plausible, the Gazurtoid less so,
but not totally out of the question.  The game (Starflight)
didn't really characterize any of them well enough to do an
adequate development for Traveller, however, and both biological
niches are already filled with better-developed races in
Traveller - the Githiaskio for the Gazurtoid niche, and the Newts
for the Thrynn niche.  I'd consider this project a lost cause; it
might suffice for an evening of amusement - if the players know
about the game - but not much more.

Some more interesting possibilities, IMO:

The Sime/Gen symbiosis, from the series by Jaqueline Lichtenberg
and Jean Lorrah, set on a post-apocalyptic Earth [the "Zeor"
books]. (Minor Human Race [MHR])

The humanoid aliens of Star Trek, most notably the Vulcans and
Romulans as written up by Diane Duane (_The_Romulan_Way_ and
_Spock's_World_), and the Klingons as written up by John M. Ford
(_The_Final_Reflection_).  Note that Ford's Klingons are TOS, not
TNG. (MHR/MHR/MHR)

The Sivaoans from Janet Kagan's Star Trek book, _Uhura's_Song_.
(Minor Aslan offshoot [MAs])

The Kzinti from Niven's Known Space. (MAs)

The Puppeteers from Niven's Known Space. (Minor Alien [MAl])

H. Beam Piper's Fuzzies/Gashta, as expanded on by William Tuning
and Ardath Mayhar. (MAl)

Most of the other interesting societies were humans, or near
enough not to matter.  The trick is to find societies that are
both interesting and well-enough defined that you can use them
for more than just "local color" - If the locals are 2.5m tall
and have royal Tyrian purple skin, but otherwise act like humans
from Terra, Vland, or Sylea, then what's the use?

At its height, the Third Imperium encompassed 11,000 worlds.
That guarantees that you can legitimately create 11,000 unique
societies, and the number is probably closer to 1.1 million, or
maybe 11 million.  But 11 million societies full of humans in
rubber suits is just plain BORING.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 22:48:37 +0100
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Inside a firing spinal mount

spinal mount blockages ...

Which brings to mind another question, how do you fire a PAW in 
atmosphere?  If the tunnel is in vacuum, there must be a "membrane" 
covering the end, and that will get damaged by the particle beam.

Do we assume that magnetic fields and some ionisation is enough to keep 
out the air?

Simon

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 18:32:45 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: [T98#504] Starflight & Traveller 

> Some more interesting possibilities, IMO:
> 
> The Sime/Gen symbiosis, from the series by Jaqueline Lichtenberg
> and Jean Lorrah, set on a post-apocalyptic Earth [the "Zeor"
> books]. (Minor Human Race [MHR])

Geneered off in the corner someplace, of course.  Would they be still 
genetically compatible with the rest of humaniti?

> The humanoid aliens of Star Trek, most notably the Vulcans and
> Romulans as written up by Diane Duane (_The_Romulan_Way_ and
> _Spock's_World_), and the Klingons as written up by John M. Ford
> (_The_Final_Reflection_).  Note that Ford's Klingons are TOS, not
> TNG. (MHR/MHR/MHR)

Eh.  Lose the Rommies & the Vulcans, but keep Ford's Klingons.  <grin>

> The Kzinti from Niven's Known Space. (MAs)

The *REAL* Aslan, IMNSFBHO.  Great stuff.  

> The Puppeteers from Niven's Known Space. (Minor Alien [MAl])

I wouldn't call them a *minor* race, though.  The Puppeteers pretty much tried 
running things behind the scenes.  They'd be a *worthy* adversary for the 
Hiver Shadow Nests, though...

> H. Beam Piper's Fuzzies/Gashta, as expanded on by William Tuning
> and Ardath Mayhar. (MAl)

Don't forget the Ullers.  Silicate-based, cold-blooded, with 2 major rifts in 
the culture:  the 'tamed' wogs & the nomads.

> Most of the other interesting societies were humans, or near
> enough not to matter.  The trick is to find societies that are
> both interesting and well-enough defined that you can use them
> for more than just "local color" - If the locals are 2.5m tall
> and have royal Tyrian purple skin, but otherwise act like humans
> from Terra, Vland, or Sylea, then what's the use?

Ever read R. M. Meluch's 'Sovereign'?  Check it out sometime.  Same with a 
*LOT* of Poul Anderson's alien cultures in his Trader series.  Andy Slack even 
wrote up the Staurni as an NPC race.

> At its height, the Third Imperium encompassed 11,000 worlds.
> That guarantees that you can legitimately create 11,000 unique
> societies, and the number is probably closer to 1.1 million, or
> maybe 11 million.  But 11 million societies full of humans in
> rubber suits is just plain BORING.

Exactly.  But there's plenty of room for everything in there.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:41:38 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)

[The bottom line is that piracy depends on how you assume things
work...]

Wed, 20 May 1998 19:49:51, Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
> >Case 1: Piracy on worlds with no (trustworthy) SDBs.

> >In this case the pirates hide out on the planet itself and intercept
> >close to the planet. As long as they have a higher G drive than you do
> >then they have you. They may have you anyway if you have to dip for
> >fuel.

> If you assume the IN takes a hard line against state-supported piracy, this
> could get very unhealthy for the host planet very fast.

Well, this assumes they hide out there afterwards to, rather
than just skip out.  It also assumes there is someone in
the system for the victim to radio his distress to.

> >Case 2: Piracy on worlds with an imperial starport and SDBs.

> >A pirate hiding out beyond the 100 diameter limit has to intercept,
> >disable, and then match vectors with, any trader it wants to rob. It
> >must then rob cargo, etc., and get back out to 100 diameters and jump.
> >It must be able to do this before any military craft can intercept (i.e.
> >2 hours max.). Anyone lurking within the 100 diameter sphere is asking
> >for a visit from Cleons Finest.
> 
> All true. Relativly cheap passive sensors in FFS2 have very long ranges,
> and fighters are pretty cheap and even useful against ethically-challenged
> civilians. Any ship hanging around with no real business gets a 'hello'
> from the Space Patrol in my book.

This assumes pirate "hang around" rather than just take targets of
opportunity as they pass through.  It also assumes FFS2 sensors.
There is also the question of who long it takes to rob, or whatever,
a ship (which also ended up depending on assumptions.)  It also assumes
that you raid ships jumping in.  There is also the question of
how much variation in when you exit throws you off you exit point
(by my calc you can be, assuming 30 km/s orbital velocity, 2.6 million
km from the 100 diam limit).  However, it would seem to be safer
to just concentrate on poorly guarded systems.  I also isn't clear
if, once you have the ship, you can use it for cover or take
the crew hostage....

> You also have the problem of response via 12g missiles from the starport,
> but I havent done the numbers on this.

What is the endurance of a missle?  I've never heard that it is hours...

> >You are going to find it very difficult to match velocities as a leaving
> >ship doesn't need to bother with turnover. A 1G ship can reach 100
> >diameters in around 3 hours without turnover, and is going to be going
> >very fast at the 100 diameter point (around 80 000 km/h). 

This assumes that doesn't worry about his velocity (regarding the
destination system) until after he comes out of jump (ie always
does a running jump).  It also assumes that you don't spot
your target at the starport and then just pretend to be another
ship going the same spot at the same time....
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 10:54:39 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Ongoing discussion on Gurps: Traveller

At 10:22 AM 21/05/98 +0100, John Buston wrote:
>> ... GURPS Traveller, for example, uses reactionless drives. ...
>
>then in another mail:
>
>> ... jump drives use fuel ...
>> Power plants have changed slightly; they use the GURPS model of a
>> plant that doesn't need refuelling for 200 years. Power plant fuel is such
>> an infintessimal part of the total fuel on a Traveller starship that this
>makes
>> zero difference.
>
>Er, No. Doesn't this make interstellar travel *without* jump drive
>possible in a small ship?
>
>I bet if you did 6Gs for a couple of years, probably less, you could
>travel a parsec (ship time - relativistic effects set in after a few
>months at 6G) . So when your jump drive fails or you can't refuel your
>jump drive you just program the course in your computer, jump in your
>emergency low berths and wait it out. If there was the possibility you
>would design for it.
>
>Wouldn't this change the basis of ship design, and alter "history"
>somewhat?
>
>I bet there are other interesting consequences of this too.

I was curious about about the effect of thrusters on in system transit
times, as IMTU I use HEPLaR which has outer to innner transit times in the
weeks - months range, so I whipped up a spreadsheet to have a look. Then I
realised just how fast you could move, so I checked the velocity for a trip
from one side of Sol's 1000 Diameter Thruster limit to the other (it is
1000 Diameters, I hope). This is what I got:

Time to Jupiter
Accel, G  1        2        3        4        5        6
Seconds   557961   394538   322139   278980   249528   227786
Days      6.5 d    4.6 d    3.7 d    3.2 d    2.9 d    2.6 d
v (m/s)   2789803  3945377  4832080  5579606  6238189  6833593
v (% C)   0.930    1.315    1.611    1.860    2.079    2.278

Across Sol's limit (using the same gravity gradient as Terra's 1000 D
limit)						
Seconds   597696   422635   345080   298848   267298   244008
Days      6.9 d    4.9 d    4 d      3.5 d    3.1 d    2.8 d
v (m/s)   5976956  8452692  10352391 11953911 13364879 14640492
v (% C)   1.992    2.818    3.451    3.985    4.455    4.880
Tau       1.00020  1.00040  1.00060  1.00080  1.00099  1.00119

                   A Cent   P Cent   Barnard's Star    Tau Ceti		
Dist (ly)          4.5      4.3      5.9               11.7
Time (y)           92.2     88.1     120.9             239.7
Apparent Time (6G) 92.1     88.0     120.8             239.5

Obviously as you can only use thrusters at each end you'd need some sort of
mid-course correction drive, however as there'll be plenty of time I don't
imagine it need ne very big, as long as it is fuel efficient. The real
limitation would be that for red dwarfs (like Barnard's Star, IIRC) you are
limited to a velocity that you will have time to get rid of within it's
1000 Diameter limit. So STL travel is possible with 1000 diameter limited
thrusters, though slow.

This chart also disturbed me in it's implications for combat (ignoring
near-C rocks and ships, of course :) - IMO it encourages high-V passes
through the inner system by the attacker and defender, using KE attacks on
each other as they whizz past - not much like traditional Traveller combat.

Make GG refueling reasonably quick, though.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #508
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(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Test message, please ignore
Re: Misjumps? & History
Re: Misjumps?
Re: Ongoing discussion on Gurps: Traveller
Re: Misjumps?
Re:Er...
Re: Misjumps?
Re: Misjumps?
Re: Misjumps?
Re: Ongoing discussion on Gurps: Traveller
Subject: Er... (Thursters and Fusion Plants)
Re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)
Re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)
Re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)
Re: Ongoing discussion on Gurps: Traveller
Re: Imperial Tax Policy and *shudder* Piracy
Re: Escort tonnage
101 Religions
Re: Misjumps?
Re: Misjumps?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 03:27:49 -0400
From: Andy Slack <AndySlack@compuserve.com>
Subject: Test message, please ignore

If you can see this, the aptly named Mr Miracle has restored my access to
the list.
[Pesky virus...]

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 23:50:51 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Misjumps? & History

Hello,
>Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 01:26:19 -0500
>From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
>Subject: Re: Misjumps?
>
>At 10:51 PM -0700 05/21/1998, John R. Snead wrote:
>>I've been thinking more about misjumps.  The next time I run Traveller it
>>occurred to me that since I don't much like the idea of misjumps into
>>empty space I might institute a rule where ships can *only* exit 100
>>diameters from some large body (say a planet, sun, or a moon at least
>>several 100 km in diameter).
...
>1:You couldn't travel 2 parsecs in a jump-1 ship by carrying enough fuel
>for two jump-1s.  Since I think this is how long jumps are made by low-tech
>ships, it creates a historical problem.  This can by fixed by changing
>history...  It also means that supply depots in deep space for invasion
>forces can ferry out fuel, etc, to make a convenient staging ground just
>before jumping in and soundly thrashing the Duke of Regina's Own Huscarls
>in their own barracks.  Again, change history.

  Is it just me, or does this problem extend to the Imperium game
(the wargame of the Interstellar Wars)? There is in mechanism in
the game for jumping further than two parsecs between systems
under any circumstances (although STL travle is allowed...).

  Jump-3 isn't a problem, as that appears only after the period in
which the depicted area is the battlefield. It also signals the
collapse of effective Vilani resistance.

  Jump-1 may be a problem, as supposedly the Terrans start with it
(at least according to some versions of the RoM flamewar), which
means they can't actually fight the first war.

  Jump-2 _is_ a problem, if you allow jumps to deep space sites for
replenishment, regrouping, etc., _unless_ you decide that the ability
to do this either i) at all, or ii) accurately (vital for most military
and many civilian purposes) is a unique (i.e., TL independent) invention
similar to the way drop-tanks seem to be presented.

  Comments?

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 01:11:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) wrote:

>At 10:51 PM -0700 05/21/1998, John R. Snead wrote:
>>I've been thinking more about misjumps.  The next time I run Traveller it
>>occurred to me that since I don't much like the idea of misjumps into
>>empty space I might institute a rule where ships can *only* exit 100
>>diameters from some large body (say a planet, sun, or a moon at least
>>several 100 km in diameter).

>I'd require that the body be at least as large as a gas giant, if I were
>you.

Except that it's canon that a ship can come out of jump 100 diameters from
a habitable planet like Earth.  Still, I might want to make the minimum
size 1,000 km.  Can anyone see any problems with that? 

- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:02:39 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Ongoing discussion on Gurps: Traveller

>Well, I'm not sure that a scout ship, if you took out the
>jump drive stuff, couldn't do a parsec STL.  However,
>there is an issue about being able to just drive back
>from a misjump (which has been raised regarding how
>reliable plans to recover from a misjump in T4 are).
>I have advocated that there should be something to
>limit endurance....

There's also the problem with radiation when you're doing close to C versus
the interstellar medium.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:27:51 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

>1) Most ships attempt to appear 100 diameters from their destination
>anyway.

>2) In system misjumps (ie where the ship appears somewhere else in the
>destination system) would simply involve the ship appearing around another
>planet than the one intended.

>3) Military and pirate ships which wanted to sneak into a system could
>appear around a distant outer planet (assuming the system didn't have
>resources to patrol every planet) or if the system does have this type of
>resources the ship or fleet could appear 100 diameters from the star, which
>is going to be far too large an area for anyone to patrol closely.

>So, am I missing anything?  Can anyone see any seriously problematic
>consequences with instituting this rule?

It breaks with canon somewhat (Twilights peak for instance mentions
deepspace jumps) but I wouldn't worry too much about that. It gives however
a reason for why the "mains" are supposed to be so important. If you can
jump to deepspace then traders with J1 (due to low TL or whatever) can have
extra jumpfuel and go to juice systems J2 away. With the above ruling they
cannot cross gulfs bigger than their J performance. It also makes it
impossible to cross the great gulfs.

The greatest thing about this rule is (methinks) that deepspace is unknown.
Anything and everything could be lurking out there, especially if you pose
a minimum mass to jump from/to that is pretty big (say 1000 km asteroid or
something).


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 04:24:57 -0500
From: "Jeremy Reaban" <frankpul@stlnet.com>
Subject: Re:Er...

I'm not sure it's really a problem. Sure, you CAN use T-plates for STL
interstellar travel, but 99.999999% of the time, you're not. Basically only
if you don't have a jump drive.

Even then, it would be somewhat dangerous. If we're talking a normal
Traveller ship that just has a broken jump drive, then it's not
particularly suited for near light speed travel. For one, it's going to get
clobbered by space dust. For another, the navigation system isn't designed
for it - most normal ships would end up getting lost or couldn't even fly
between stars on autopilot.  For example - has anyone every played the
Elite series, particularly Elite 2? You can use autopilot to fly for you,
but you have a tendancy to crash into things or have bad things happen to
you unless you're watching over it.  

But, I can see it working in ships designed for it, like huge hollowed out
asteroid ships. In fact, I always thought that the ships used to colonize
the Island Clusters were propelled by T-plates. I used a similar idea IMTU
- - I have lots of planets in the far reaches of space colonized by people
from Earth in sub-light ships launched before the invention of jump drive,
but after the invention of T-plates.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:30:23 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

>2:What happens if they try to jump to an empty region of space?

They "evaporate" to the closest/most massive mass object.

>3:What happens if they have a minor mishap and are stuck in jump for say,
>four weeks.

Nothing particular (the time in jumpspace has nothing to do with travel
time ie twice as long is J-space won't take you twice as far)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:32:19 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

>True, unless the staging base is some GG or BD that the invaders happened
>to stumble across.  Making something like this a very rare event, and
>that's probably good too.  I vaguely remember an adventure that took place
>in an "empty hex" where a battle had taken place. Perhaps this was a battle
>for control of a small brown dwarf, that didn't (and still doesn't) appear
>on *civilian* charts.

Yeah, the hapless PCs misjump to an uncharted rogue GG complete with
refuelling bases etc for the Zhodani warfleet or whatever. GREAT!


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:33:44 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

>Except that it's canon that a ship can come out of jump 100 diameters from
>a habitable planet like Earth.  Still, I might want to make the minimum
>size 1,000 km.  Can anyone see any problems with that?
>
>-John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

Well, Eris is in fact THE heretic.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 22:24:14 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Ongoing discussion on Gurps: Traveller

At 12:00 AM 22/05/98 -0500, Eris wrote:
>On 05/22/98 at 10:54 AM,  Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz> said:
>
>>This chart also disturbed me in it's implications for combat (ignoring
>>near-C rocks and ships, of course :) - IMO it encourages high-V passes
>>through the inner system by the attacker and defender, using KE attacks on
>>each other as they whizz past - not much like traditional Traveller
>>combat.
>
>And you recommend what?
>
>Dumping T-Plates and using HEPlaR instead?
>
>That's probably the *best* idea for "true-blue" Traveller 1g to 6g drives,
>that or Fusion drives. 
>
>IMTU, I use stutterwarp, limited to stl only.  I get the "speed" and
>maneuverability I want, but I can make sure it doesn't get out of hand.

Well I originally did the claculations to see what effect thrusters would
have in intra-system travel. Having had a look I think I'll stay with
HEPLaR, as I'm not happy with the very short transit times thrusters give.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 03:43:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Subject: Er... (Thursters and Fusion Plants)

GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com> wrote:

>Buston, John" <john.buston@eds.com> said:

>>Er, No. Doesn't this make interstellar travel *without* jump drive
>>possible in a small ship?
>>

<deletions>
>
>>Wouldn't this change the basis of ship design, and alter "history"
>>somewhat?

>Yep. That's one of a few million little things I haven't completely solved
>just yet. 

This sort of thing is only if thruster plates don't have a cut off.  Even
if the cut-off is 2,000 AU (as in FFS2) Your'e still only getting to
around 0.6 C with a 6 G drive.  This is very nice, but you'll still need
low berths, and a measly 2 parsec journey takes 11 years. 

Your either going in a ship big enough to do a full closed ecology (algae,
hydroponics for growing food...) which will be a *lot* larger than 100
tons, or you're going frozen and hoping that nothing breaks.  Also,
thruster plates are TL 11, so not that many folks are likely to be doing
this. 

Also, thruster plates are better than a Bussard Ramjet, but they aren't
incredibly better than one, especially since they have the 2,000 AU cut
off, so they're not changing the universe *that* much.

I rather like the idea of small ships being able to do moderate-time STL
travel. 

I would definitely keep the 2,000 AU (I'd personally make it 1,000 AU for
simplicity) cut off for thruster drives though. 

I also *greatly* prefer the idea of 20-200 year fuel supplies for fusion
plants.  Anything smaller just seems silly. 


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 00:38:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)

In mail you write:

>>>Maneuvering at high speeds through 
>>>the orbital masses of a gas giant is dangerous. 
>
> Poetic imagery, but it's not really like that.
>
> The orbital masses are not close together, but light seconds apart. In a
> high TL systems there would even be navigation beacons on them. (If they
> were close together they wouldn't stay in orbit for very long).

Unless he's thinking of ring systems. *Those* can get messy. Especially
"new" ones like Saturn's.

> You would never need to come close to a large body apart from your
> target.  Though you might want to use the GG for orbital braking, or
> acceleration, to speed up you entry/exit time.
>
> At several diameters from the GG the gravitational forces at work are
> tiny compared to even a 1G maneuver drive. 

Not true. At .5 diameters (ie the upper atmosphere) jupiter is pulling
with 2.5 g. At 1 diameter, it's dropped to 2.5/4 = .625. At 2
diameters, it's .15625. That's almost as much gravity as the surface of
Luna! A 1g ship had better not get within .79 diameters (1.58 radii) of
Jupiter unless it's got *good* contragrav.

And if you figure things in terms of orbital and escape velocities, the
field near a gas giant is *really* nasty. 

>>>If you come in too fast, you may not be able to escape the pull
>>> of the gas giant.  Then you're really screwed.
>
> The "surface" gravity of a large GG (e.g. Jupiter) is "only" 2.5G.
> Smaller GGs (e.g. Saturn, Uranus, Neptune) have surface gravity around
> the 1G mark. So even for a large GG you would only have to be cautious
> within 1 or 2 diameters (e.g. when making fuel scoop runs).
> Gravitational pull reduces with the square of the distance.
>
> A 3G craft (an SDB perhaps) could actually hide within the atmosphere of
> even a large GG. (Wasn't there a piranha class SDB designed to do just
> that?).

Don't forget that Jupiter is about as "large" as a gas giant can get.
But it's *far* from being as *massive* as they can get. When you add
more mass to a jupiter sized GG, the core starts going degenerate, and
that keeps the diameter from increasing. 

We have strong evidence for several GGs that are in the 10-50 jupiter
mass range. That means "surface" gravities in the 25 to 125 g range. 

Ships aren't going to go anywhere *near* one of those, except on a
ballistic trajectory that's aimed at making a major course change.

>>... don't gas giants have brutal electromagnetic fields that
>>make settlements on moons near them unlikely ?
>
> And possibly make sensors less reliable or reduce range. So that's how
> the pirates managed to sneak in! 

> Also the Roche tidal stability limit means there wont be any permanent
> moons inside about 2 diameters. You may want to mine the rings though -
> these generally lie between 1 and 2 diameters out.

The Roche limit is 1.44 radii. And that's for materials with "zero"
strength (ie a liquid moon couldn't hold together under its own
gravity). Inside that limit the tidal forces get stronger, requiring
more tensile strength to hold together. Note that we have lots of
satellites inside our Roche limit. The tidal forces aren't strong
enough to pull them apart. But if you let go of something, it won't
hang around for long (but be warned! It'll come back an orbit later).

> Jupiter's magnetosphere stretches out to somewhere between 25 and 50
> diameters, and is 10,000 times as strong as the Earth's. Other GGs
> proportionately less. It acts like a giant particle accelerator with
> protons zipping around at near light speed.  Radiation levels inside the
> stronger parts of it are likely to be hazardous at best. The large moon
> IO at 3 diameters out is in the worst of it. You could probably
> construct safe habitat at a high TL, though you wouldn't want to go
> outside :-)
>
> Note that the outermost moons of Jupiter are over 150 diameters out!

And they are essentially small to medium asteroids. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 00:10:50 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)

In mail you write:

> Everything is fine. But consider the REAL SOLAR 100 DIAMETER is
> around 4.5 AU from Sol so it is a very long journey at one gee from
> earth to jumpzone even using a running jump manuver. You count the
> days not hours.

An AU is 1.496e11 meters. The radius of the sun is 6.96e8 meters.

limit = 200 * 6.96e8
limit = 1.392e11

1.392e11/1.496e11 = .93 AU

So the 100 diameter limit for Sol is less than 1 AU.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 00:55:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)

In mail you write:

>> >You are going to find it very difficult to match velocities as a leaving
>> >ship doesn't need to bother with turnover. A 1G ship can reach 100
>> >diameters in around 3 hours without turnover, and is going to be going
>> >very fast at the 100 diameter point (around 80 000 km/h). 
>
> This assumes that doesn't worry about his velocity (regarding the
> destination system) until after he comes out of jump (ie always
> does a running jump).  It also assumes that you don't spot
> your target at the starport and then just pretend to be another
> ship going the same spot at the same time....

Slight problem there. Traffic Control is going to *insist* that you
maintain a lasrge interval between your ship and any others, even ones
heading to the same destination (think airliners nowadays). 

That means that you likely will be at least 15 minutes behind him, and
that the best jump point for *you* (if you were legit) is a fair
distance from the best jump point for *him* (because in 15 minutes, the
alignments will have changed by several degrees, and at 100 diameters,
several degrees is a *long* ways).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 01:10:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Ongoing discussion on Gurps: Traveller

In mail you write:

> I was curious about about the effect of thrusters on in system transit
> times, as IMTU I use HEPLaR which has outer to innner transit times in the
> weeks - months range, so I whipped up a spreadsheet to have a look. Then I
> realised just how fast you could move, so I checked the velocity for a trip
> from one side of Sol's 1000 Diameter Thruster limit to the other (it is
> 1000 Diameters, I hope). This is what I got:
>
> Time to Jupiter
> Accel, G  1        2        3        4        5        6
> Seconds   557961   394538   322139   278980   249528   227786
> Days      6.5 d    4.6 d    3.7 d    3.2 d    2.9 d    2.6 d
> v (m/s)   2789803  3945377  4832080  5579606  6238189  6833593
> v (% C)   0.930    1.315    1.611    1.860    2.079    2.278
>
> Across Sol's limit (using the same gravity gradient as Terra's 1000 D
> limit)                                          
> Seconds   597696   422635   345080   298848   267298   244008
> Days      6.9 d    4.9 d    4 d      3.5 d    3.1 d    2.8 d
> v (m/s)   5976956  8452692  10352391 11953911 13364879 14640492
> v (% C)   1.992    2.818    3.451    3.985    4.455    4.880
> Tau       1.00020  1.00040  1.00060  1.00080  1.00099  1.00119

I think you are figuring *gamma*, not tau. tau=sqrt(1-v^2) (when v is
in units of c=1). Gamma is 1/tau.

> This chart also disturbed me in it's implications for combat (ignoring
> near-C rocks and ships, of course :) - IMO it encourages high-V passes
> through the inner system by the attacker and defender, using KE attacks on
> each other as they whizz past - not much like traditional Traveller combat.

Well, that's where you need to stick in *something* that requires the
energy input to the drive to be more realistic. After all, at 4.8% of
c, the ship has a KE of 2e14 Joules/kg. And to get that much energy
from fusion (which turns approx .1% of the fuel mass into energy) would
require 2.3 kg of fuel for every kg of the ship. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 01:20:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Tax Policy and *shudder* Piracy

In mail you write:

> There _is_ a problem with this set up when the world's government
> is being contested for a prolonged period of time ... such  as  a
> long-running local civil war.  If the identity of the  legitimate
> world government is in question then who gets  stiffed  with  the
> tax bill?

If I was the Imperial tax collector, I'd present the bill to *both*
sides, with a hint that whoever pays it gets recognized. Of course,
after they paid it, it might turn out to be a misunderstanding. Or
maybe the Imperium *would* decide to recognize them. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 14:26:40 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage

David P. Summers writes:

>>>In this case the pirates hide out on the planet itself and intercept
>>>close to the planet. As long as they have a higher G drive than you do
>>>then they have you. They may have you anyway if you have to dip for
>>>fuel.
> 
>>If you assume the IN takes a hard line against state-supported piracy, this
>>could get very unhealthy for the host planet very fast.
> 
>Well, this assumes they hide out there afterwards too, rather than just skip
>out. It also assumes there is someone in the system for the victim to radio
>his distress to.

If you mean for purposes of letting other people know what has happened then
there don't have to be any ship in the system at the time you broadcast.
Lightspeed lag, you know.
 
>>Any ship hanging around with no real business gets a 'hello'
>>from the Space Patrol in my book.
> 
>This assumes pirate "hang around" rather than just take targets of
>opportunity as they pass through.

Once again you ignore the _fact_ that a civilian ship that is conducting
legitimate business while waiting for a target of opportunity has to do
so in its proper identity or at the very least runs a grave risk of
leaving behind abundant clues to its identity (which makes for interesting
problems once they have committed a crime) while a civilian ship that isn't
conducting legitimate business is 1) losing money and 2) exibiting suspicious
behavior.

>It also assumes FFS2 sensors.

I haven't seen FF&S2 and I don't have the technical knowledge to judge,
but am I right in assuming that that means realistic, real-world sensors?

>It also assumes that you raid ships jumping in.

Naturally. Ships jumping out can escape you by jumping.

>>You also have the problem of response via 12g missiles from the starport,
>>but I havent done the numbers on this.
> 
>What is the endurance of a missle?  I've never heard that it is hours...

Depends on the design, of course. But if you're talking about standard
50 kg Traveller missiles of the CT days, I seem to recall that they had
12 G-turns of acceleration, ie. they could accererate a total of 12 G
for 20 minutes.
 
>>>You are going to find it very difficult to match velocities as a leaving
>>>ship doesn't need to bother with turnover. A 1G ship can reach 100
>>>diameters in around 3 hours without turnover, and is going to be going
>>>very fast at the 100 diameter point (around 80 000 km/h). 
> 
>This assumes that doesn't worry about his velocity (regarding the
>destination system) until after he comes out of jump (ie always
>does a running jump).

He may prefer a running jump to being followed too closely by a mysterious
ship that just happened to leave the starport shortly after he did and
just happens to be trying to overtake him. That don't mean that he always
makes running jumps. Just when there are suspicious ships around.

>It also assumes that you don't spot your target at the starport and then
>just pretend to be another ship going the same spot at the same time....

A lot of us find it logical that precisely because that is just about the
only way a pirate can "sneak" up on a victim, any such doings fall in the
"suspicious behavior" category.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 08:37:07 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: 101 Religions

After many trials and tribulations, I finally finished my bit of 101
Religions, only to discover that that project's address file had vanished.

Could some kind soul please tell me where I should email the files?

Thanks

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 09:13:19 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> Someone Else wrote:
> >5: Also makes it hard to discover jump drive when your homeworld is 2
> >parsecs from the nearest star.  If all J-1s just blow up or fail, why
> >would they continue the development which leads to J-2?

Blow up or fail? 

You _have_ to be able to jump into empty space. Otherwise
the Solomani can't discover Jump Drive. Which would kind of
a) suck and b) destroy all of canonical Traveller history.

http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry/traveller/solomanirim.html
for a map. Search for 'Terra'.

(I have to get around to sprucing up that damn map applet
one of these days)

> Which helps to explain why so few races discovered jump drive? ;->

Eris, don't get me started. We all know that jump drive is
"discovered" like gold, not like gravity.

Ethan
- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 14:30:28 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

John R. Snead writes:
>The next time I run Traveller it
>occurred to me that since I don't much like the idea of misjumps into
>empty space I might institute a rule where ships can *only* exit 100
>diameters from some large body (say a planet, sun, or a moon at least
>several 100 km in diameter).

I've played with a similar rule for years. I, basically, borrowed many jump
ideas from C.J.Cherryh. The way I see it is that when you fling yourself
into jump-space you end up on a fixed "ballistic" trajectory. If you
imagine space as a curved rubber sheet then you are skipping along below
the curvature. You exit jump-space when you intersect the rubber sheet
again. So, if a large section of curved space gets in the way you are
precipitated out.
My assumption is that the calculations for jump transitions are heniously
complex and take forever to calculate. They allow, in theory, the ability
to travel from any point in space to any other point in space in zero time
(macro quantum jumps). Unfortunately, you usually have to be a point mass
to do so. However, some bright spark came up with an approximation formula
which is much easier to calculate. The price you pay, though, is
uncertainty (6-8 day jump time), risk (chance of misjump), and entry/exit
limitations (100 diameter rule). The reason for the latter is that it is
easier to approximate your trajectory an rely on hitting the curved-space
wall to precipitate you out that to plot an exact course and fall out
naturally.
In general I interpret misjumps as times when either the equation didn't
apply perfectly, or drive fluctuations changed the input parameters beyond
the equations expectations. In those cases the target gravity well was
"missed" and your ballistic trajectory just continues on until the next
gravity well (possibly several parsecs distant) drops you out.

Michael Croft outlines some limitations:
>1:You couldn't travel 2 parsecs in a jump-1 ship by carrying enough fuel
>for two jump-1s.
Actually interstellar space is littered with loads of junk. There are
bunches of brown dwarfs, failed stars and cometary masses out there. Odds
are that _somewhere_ in every empty hex is a mass in the several 100km
range John specified to jump to. A hex is awfully large.

>2:What happens if they try to jump to an empty region of space?
By John's logic, they couldn't. Maybe the would just fail to enter.
My by logic, it is possible, but is a much more complicated calculation.
Or, the "miss" and cruise on to the next gravity well.

>3:What happens if they have a minor mishap and are stuck in jump for say,
>four weeks.
>Now, if you're three weeks late, Earth has moved
Extending John's logic, one might assume that these gravity wells have an
effect on the topology of jump space and, as they move, might affect the
course of the transitioning ship. For example, once in jump space, the ship
may not "travel" in any conventional sense, but exist simultaneously at all
points between the entry and exit point in a like projected in to the
n-dimensional manifold of jump-space. Thus a moving endpoint doesn't really
matter.
By my logic, they probably miss and hit the sun's gravity well.

>4: You're eliminating short jumps and rescue jumps
This is the same problem as jumping to empty space.

>5: Also makes it hard to discover jump drive when your homeworld is 2
>parsecs from the nearest star.
Not really, since you can jump from one 100km mass to another in your own
system (Earth->Moon, for example).

Cheers,
Jo

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #510
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 22 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 511



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Non-Jump FTL Travel
Re: [T98#504] Starflight & Traveller
Is the 100-diameter limit planetary or solar?
Starflight Traveller
Re: Misjumps?
Re: Sword World names
Re: Test message, please ignore
Re: Imperial Tax Policy and *shudder* Piracy
Near C objects (was Ongoing discussion on Gurps: Traveller and others)
Re: Is the 100-diameter limit planetary or solar?
Jump points (was Milieu 0 adventure hooks)
STL ships (was Er... (Thursters and Fusion Plants))
Re: Near C objects (was Ongoing discussion on Gurps: Traveller and others)
Re: Starflight and Traveller
re: (long term feul consumption)
re: Subject: Er... (Thursters and Fusion Plants)
Re: Misjumps?
Re: Misjumps?
Re: Misjumps?
Re: Ongoing discussion on Gurps: Traveller
Re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)
Re: Starflight and Traveller
Speaking of Sensors!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 8:57:37 CDT
From: Russell Anderson Sinclair <rsincla@acad.stedwards.edu>
Subject: Non-Jump FTL Travel

In a couple of recent posts, there has been a discussion of approaching 
the speed of light with conventional drives. My understanding is that 
mass increases as a body approaches the speed of light. Doesn't this mean 
that using regular drives (NOT JUMP DRIVES) to exceed C is impossible?

I am a newbie to both Traveller and this mailing list, so forgive me if
this is a stupid question.

- --
The three principal virtues of a programmer are Laziness, Impatience,
      and Hubris.
                                -From Unix 'man perl'

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 01:23:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [T98#504] Starflight & Traveller

In mail you write:

>> Some more interesting possibilities, IMO:
>> 
>> The Sime/Gen symbiosis, from the series by Jaqueline Lichtenberg
>> and Jean Lorrah, set on a post-apocalyptic Earth [the "Zeor"
>> books]. (Minor Human Race [MHR])

Alas, I wasn't interested in them when they came out, and they vanished
afterwards.

>> H. Beam Piper's Fuzzies/Gashta, as expanded on by William Tuning
>> and Ardath Mayhar. (MAl)

No. I prefer the way Piper did things in "Fuzzies and Other People"
(yes, they *did* find the manuscript. It was published about 8? years
back). It still makes them good for use in games, but gets away from
the silly "descendants of marooned spacefarers" bit.

In any case, using the square/cube law as a rule of thumb, since
fuzzies are somewhere between 18 inches and two feet (1/3 and 1/4
meter), that means that they need somewhere between 1/27th and 1/64th
as much life support as humans. ditto for the tonnage required for
their quarters. They *will* need more food than this, because they lose
heat much faster and thus need to eat more. 

Even so, a Fuzzy crewed starship would be cheaper to run in a lot of
ways. They'd have trouble dealing with the larger bits of equipment,
but I think they'd make up for it in the reduced space needed for
"access" to equipment. 

> Don't forget the Ullers. Silicate-based, cold-blooded, with 2 major
> rifts in the culture: the 'tamed' wogs & the nomads.

I think they were more radiation resistant, too. In any case, their
indifference to such a wide range of temperatures makes them well
suited to being engineering crew. Heck, if I recall correctly, you
could *freeze* one of them (say due to an accidental LH2 spill) and
he'd be fine when he thawed out. 

>> At its height, the Third Imperium encompassed 11,000 worlds.
>> That guarantees that you can legitimately create 11,000 unique
>> societies, and the number is probably closer to 1.1 million, or
>> maybe 11 million.  But 11 million societies full of humans in
>> rubber suits is just plain BORING.

Actually, it pays to check out anthropology texts and ethology texts.
There are a lot of *human* cultures that your average Westerner would
consider far more alien than *anything* seen in TV or movie SF, and
stranger than a lot of stuff in *printed* SF. 

And a lot of ethological studies of animals give response patterns that
are quite plausible for aliens, and *utterly* inhuman. Gordon R.
Dickson used to write a lot of stories using that sort of trick. One
species was pretty much based on the way *bears* behave.

He also had a wonderful bit of interaction between humanity and a
species whose "morality" or "ethics" was based on "proper" (ie doing
the "proper" thing) rather than "right". I can't remember the title,
but it worked rather well. They responded just enough differently to
keep throwing you off. 

And of course, a lot of C. J. Cherryh's stuff is good for this. 

I'd love to find a corner near the Imperium to stick the whole set of
cultures from the Chanur stories. Ssh'to, Mahendosat, Kif, Hani, t'caa,
K'nnnn. Drive your players nuts if you can do it right. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 1998 10:09 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Is the 100-diameter limit planetary or solar?

Is the 100-diameter limit planetary or solar?
I think the LBBs say it's planetary -- of course, back in
1978 one didn't have measurements for the stars in Traveller,
so of course it was planetary.

Should the 100 solar diameter limit be used also?

Jens Makus says such a rule would measure 4.5AU for our system.

This would make patrols more difficult (how much more?) and
would make piracy more do-able (how much more?).

Rob

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 1998 10:20 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Starflight Traveller

Well, here's my Cr0.02 for adapting Starflight critters to
Traveller:

	Human	->	Human
	Thrynn	->	Newts
	Elowan	->	Llewellolly  [sp]
	Velox	->	Chamax Sapiens

Rob
IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:33:48 +0100
From: "Buston, John" <john.buston@eds.com>
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

> I might institute a rule where ships can *only* exit 100 
> diameters from some large body (say a planet, sun, or a moon at least 
> several 100 km in diameter).

> Can anyone see any seriously problematic consequences 
> with instituting this rule?

100 diameters from a neutron star or a black hole could be entertaining
:-)

There are quite a lot of neutron stars (pulsars) about. 

Sticking to a 100 diameter limit (1 percent gravity gradient) no matter
what the gravitational field intensity has always been dubious IMO. I
assume the intention was to simplify for ease of game play. This works
reasonably well for planets, though the variance is large. For stars
though the distance should be much further, say 500 Diameters.

Diameters for same gravitational field intensity (Earth =100):

Mercury        61
Venus          96
Mars            62
Jupiter        160
Saturn        103
Uranus         95
Neptune     105
Pluto           27
Sun           530 (nearly to the orbit of Jupiter)

For other star types e.g. red giants, black holes and neutron stars
'diameters' cease to be a useful measure.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:28:20 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Sword World names

This is part compilation or responses to date, part research (web based).

I haven't found Dyrwin, Hofud, or Enos.  Tyrfing is a bit thin, I'd
appreciate any references to any of these.

All references to Tolkien are from the Lord of the Rings except as noted.

>Hrunting	(Norse) Weapon of Beowulf
>Mjolnir	(Norse) Hammer of Thor
>Gungnir        (Norse) Odin's magical spear
>Tizon          (Spainish) Sword of El Cid
>Dyrwin*
>Colada         (Spainish) Another sword of El Cid
You can buy reproductions of El Cid's swords (and others) at
http://www.tuscanytrading.com/weapons/gladius/214-gl.htm
Or, like me, just look at them.
>Joyeuse        (French) Charlemagne's sword
>Durendal       (French) I am Widowmaker. Called Durendal. Called nail.
>Called saviour by The Roland.  This was one of Roland's swords
>Gram           (Norse) Sigurd's sword
>Tyrfing        (Norse) Forged by dwarves.  There is a reference in a story
>called "In Arthur's House" to a sword that will next be drawn when
>Heimdall's horn blows.
>Hofud*
>Beater         (Tolkien) Goblin name for Orcrist
>Sacnoth        (English) Leothric's sword from Dunsany's "The Fortress
>Unvanquishable, Save for Sacnoth" (1908)
>Sting		(Tolkien) Bilbo's elven sword (dagger really), later
>Frodo's (?)
>Excalibur	(British) Sword of King Arthur
>Orcrist        (Tolkien) Sword of Thorin (from The Hobbit)
>Biter          (Tolkien) Goblin name for Glamdring, Sword of Gandalf
>Anduril	(Tolkien) The Sword that was Reforged. "Flame of the East"
>Iron		-Metal to forge Swords
>Narsil		(Tolkien) The Sword that was Broken.  It had been many
>years since I read the Lord of the Rings trilogy, but when looked it up
>Elrond's Words still stirred my blood.

"I was the herald of Gil-galad and marched with his host. I was at the
Battle of Dagorlad before the Black Gate of Mordor, where we had the
mastery: for the Spear of Gil-galad and the Sword of Elendil, Aiglos and
Narsil, none could withstand. I beheld the last combat on the slopes of
Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath
him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his
hand with the hilt-shard of his father's sword, and took it for his own."

>Bronze		-Metal to Forge Swords
>Mithril	-Metal to forge Swords, Tolkien
>Steel		-Metal to forge Swords
>Enos*


Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 10:37:46 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Test message, please ignore

No, I can't see this.  I am ignoring it.


Andy Slack wrote:

> If you can see this, the aptly named Mr Miracle has restored my access to
> the list.
> [Pesky virus...]
>
> Andy



- --
Robert the Lonely

Http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/4467

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:45:00 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Tax Policy and *shudder* Piracy

>In mail you write:
>
>> There _is_ a problem with this set up when the world's government
>> is being contested for a prolonged period of time ... such  as  a
>> long-running local civil war.  If the identity of the  legitimate
>> world government is in question then who gets  stiffed  with  the
>> tax bill?
>
>If I was the Imperial tax collector, I'd present the bill to *both*
>sides, with a hint that whoever pays it gets recognized. Of course,
>after they paid it, it might turn out to be a misunderstanding. Or
>maybe the Imperium *would* decide to recognize them. :-)

Perhaps each side would be assessed for the land/population it controls as
of the record date?  It might encourage more guerilla-like actions where
land is not actually occupied or claimed, only live off of.

In any case, I think either th Impies would support one or the other
side...and suspend taxes while they got their house in order...or assess
both in an equal manner.  Using the tax assessment as a tool to make one
side or the other become recognized does not seem to good an idea.  Then
again, there are a lot of stupid nobles out there, eh?

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:35:44 +0100
From: "Buston, John" <john.buston@eds.com>
Subject: Near C objects (was Ongoing discussion on Gurps: Traveller and others)

In reference to suspected inexhaustible GURPS power plants I said:

"I bet if you did 6Gs for a couple of years, probably less, you could
travel a parsec (ship time - relativistic effects set in after a few
months at 6G) ."

Even with standard traveller drives & fuel requirements you could get up
to one hell of a velocity before you ran out of fuel. This would make an
awesome weapon (unstoppable?).

>...there could be a zillion asteroids with Military Ultrablack hulls
> on highly eccentric orbits currently all piled up around the south 
> celestial pole 20 AU out - but it's unlikely.

Say you clad a small icy asteroid in a military ultrablack hull, stuck a
large power plant and drive on it and set it off at half a G towards a
neighboring system. It would take a few years to get there and would be
going over 50% of  light speed when it got there. It makes final
maneuver adjustments and cuts all power while several hours from the
target world. It is now virtually impossible to detect. A quicker method
is to jump to the target systems oort cloud and fit a high G booster to
a comet. Then it only takes a few months.

The point is a material object traveling at close to the speed of light
would hit the target planet within seconds of it being detected, if it
was detected at all.  There would be little or no time for a planetary
defense installation to act. I can't think of anything useful they could
do anyway. A large antimatter weapon might deflect one, perhaps.

As the force of the impact would equal mass times velocity, even a
relatively small object moving at near light speed would sterilize a
planet.

Now take a step back. Your world is being hostile towards the Imperium.
I demonstrate to you that I have the capability to trash your planet,
say by totaling a small moon with a scaled down version. I mention that
there are a series of increasingly larger ones already on their way. You
are then open to my trade agreements and you let me set up bases and
observation posts (after all I don't want you building one). If you are
still hostile then I let a very small first one hit to convince you
(it's useful to have a reference site).

Of course with low TL planets even low speed objects will do.

Nasty, but history suggests this is a likely scenario.

Is there anything wrong with my logic?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:49:20 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Is the 100-diameter limit planetary or solar?

>Is the 100-diameter limit planetary or solar?
>I think the LBBs say it's planetary -- of course, back in
>1978 one didn't have measurements for the stars in Traveller,
>so of course it was planetary.
>
>Should the 100 solar diameter limit be used also?

The jump drive is affected by gravity.  With this premise, the star of a
system and all the planets must be considered.  Also, its the mass that
should be counted, not the diameter, but they are roughly proportional.

According to most who I trust for such things, there are actually not too
many systems where this is relevant (like, less than 20%?).  When the star
size goes up, the habitable zone tends to go outwards as well, so its the
large, cooler stars you need to worry about.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:16:01 -0500 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Jump points (was Milieu 0 adventure hooks)

>To be honest, I really like the idea of fixed Jump points, especially if
>they are in very close to the star...say 20 solar diameters out.

Sure would be easy to defend such a system. Just stack up every defense the
system has to offer at the jump points. Assumably, anything that comes
through is then dead upon arrival, if hostile.

Talk about the need for an overwhelming invasion force ... :-)

Ciao,


Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:16:07 -0500 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: STL ships (was Er... (Thursters and Fusion Plants))

>This sort of thing is only if thruster plates don't have a cut off. ...

<deletions of good points>

Isn't the 6g limit due to gravitic compensation issues? What would prevent
one from creating a 25g+ STL ship equipped with low berths? Would popsicles
be adversely affected by high gs? If not, then triple-redundancy the
systems needed outbound to the 2000 AU limit and put the crew in the
berths. Then you fire the ship up robotically, and wake the crew at
intervals to do maintenance between acceleration and deceleration.

>I also *greatly* prefer the idea of 20-200 year fuel supplies for fusion
>plants.  Anything smaller just seems silly.

The problem I have with the 200-year supply in Gurps Vehicles is a quibble
- -- I prefer numbers. How much fuel is a 200-year supply? I just wanna know,
and in a gearhead book like G:V, I expect it to be there.

Ciao,


Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 13:12:20 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Near C objects (was Ongoing discussion on Gurps: Traveller and others)

John Bustin;
>Is there anything wrong with my logic?

Read the FAQ.

http://www.spirit.com.au/~jamesd/tml-faq.html

Specifically the secitons titled; "Subjects that have been done to death
already".

Which is not to say it won't be done again.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 10:28:08 -0700
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Re: Starflight and Traveller

Another, slightly more baroque way to play STARFLIGHT on a modern computer
is to download a SEGA Genesis emulator and the rom image of the STARFLIGHT
cartridge for that system.  Runs just fine, though I haven't had time to
play with it very much yet.


- --------------
Kelly St.Clair
kellys@efn.org

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:16:21 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: (long term feul consumption)

>>Er, No. Doesn't this make interstellar travel *without* jump drive
>>possible in a small ship?
>Yep. That's one of a few million little things I haven't completely solved
>just yet. 

Take the T4 view that thruster plates only work "well" inside a mild
gravity well (out to about 20AU from the sun, for example.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:22:32 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Subject: Er... (Thursters and Fusion Plants)

>This sort of thing is only if thruster plates don't have a cut off.  Even
>if the cut-off is 2,000 AU (as in FFS2)
The cutoff was actually supposed to be around a thousand diameters (or
20 AU) - to make refuelling in a system's Oort cloud or Kuiper belt impractical.
(Otherwise, a fleet can always "ice refuel" in any hostile system with
little chance of interception - outside 20AUs there are too many comets/
KBOs/misc iceballs for any defender to guard.)

It also makes deep space refuelling stations awkward but not impossible,
which is about right for "canon".

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 98 12:55:04 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

On 05/22/98 at 01:11 AM,  "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com> said:

>>I'd require that the body be at least as large as a gas giant, if I were
>>you.

>Except that it's canon that a ship can come out of jump 100 diameters from
>a habitable planet like Earth.  Still, I might want to make the minimum
>size 1,000 km.  Can anyone see any problems with that? 

John, I'm no fan of the "c" word. So, if it's me (IMTU), the body has to be
at least as large as a gas giant. ;->

The other thing that has always bothered me about the "100 diameters
from...Earth" is that a fleet could appear from out of nowhere right on the
planet's doorstep. A fleet jumping in a hundred diameters from Earth would
be able to launch an attack before a credible defense could be mounted.
This is a *bad* thing for gameplay, IMO, and in one of my games will not
routinely happen.  Ship's jumping in should have to spend several hours
travelling from the jump point to their destination, and IMTU 100 d from a
planet won't do it.


Eris
- -- 
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eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 98 13:05:12 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

On 05/22/98 at 11:33 AM,  anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) said:

>>Except that it's canon that a ship can come out of jump 100 diameters from
>>a habitable planet like Earth.  Still, I might want to make the minimum
>>size 1,000 km.  Can anyone see any problems with that?
>>
>>-John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

>Well, Eris is in fact THE heretic.

On some subjects more than others. On this one, strongly! ;->

In reason I've always liked the idea of fixed jump points was to get away
from the "fleet pops up" problem (at least, *I* see it as a problem), and
force long trips across systems by ships. 

Eris  

- -- 
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 98 13:10:54 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

On 05/22/98 at 11:32 AM,  anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) said:

>>True, unless the staging base is some GG or BD that the invaders happened
>>to stumble across.  Making something like this a very rare event, and
>>that's probably good too.  I vaguely remember an adventure that took place
>>in an "empty hex" where a battle had taken place. Perhaps this was a battle
>>for control of a small brown dwarf, that didn't (and still doesn't) appear
>>on *civilian* charts.

>Yeah, the hapless PCs misjump to an uncharted rogue GG complete with
>refuelling bases etc for the Zhodani warfleet or whatever. GREAT!

I think so. ;->

And make it a little harder, require a survey before they can jump back
out. So, the PC's misjump to an uncharted GG, now they have to find jump
points connecting it to other systems.

Eris

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 98 13:16:16 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Ongoing discussion on Gurps: Traveller

On 05/22/98 at 10:24 PM,  Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz> said:

>Well I originally did the claculations to see what effect thrusters would
>have in intra-system travel. Having had a look I think I'll stay with
>HEPLaR, as I'm not happy with the very short transit times thrusters give.

Any continuious acceleration drive is going to give you short
intra-system travel, well, if the acceleration is a respectible fraction of
a G. Mass carrying drives (like HEPLaR) and non-acceleration drives (like
Stutterwarp) are much more game-friendly, IMO.

Eris
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 98 13:21:07 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)

On 05/22/98 at 12:10 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>> Everything is fine. But consider the REAL SOLAR 100 DIAMETER is
>> around 4.5 AU from Sol so it is a very long journey at one gee from
>> earth to jumpzone even using a running jump manuver. You count the
>> days not hours.

>An AU is 1.496e11 meters. The radius of the sun is 6.96e8 meters.

>limit = 200 * 6.96e8
>limit = 1.392e11

>1.392e11/1.496e11 = .93 AU

>So the 100 diameter limit for Sol is less than 1 AU.

I've been waiting for him to explain what he means by "the REAL SOLAR 100
DIAMETER." He must have something in mind other than the actual diameter of
the sun, and I'd like to know what it is.


Eris

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 14:34:29 -0400
From: Journey <jjgray@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Starflight and Traveller

At 10:28 AM 5/22/98 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Another, slightly more baroque way to play STARFLIGHT on a modern computer
>is to download a SEGA Genesis emulator and the rom image of the STARFLIGHT
>cartridge for that system.  Runs just fine, though I haven't had time to
>play with it very much yet.

I honestly find that the original is much better. There are patches out
there to allow you to play the original game, too. The SEGA Gen version is
a little dumbed down.

Jay

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 98 13:37:42 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Speaking of Sensors!

On 05/22/98 at 02:26 PM,  Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> said:

>>It also assumes FFS2 sensors.

>I haven't seen FF&S2 and I don't have the technical knowledge to judge,
>but am I right in assuming that that means realistic, real-world sensors?

Folks, I want to raise a GURPS <--> Traveller issue that hasn't been talked
about yet...sensor and weapon ranges.

I've been tinkering with GURPS Vehicles and have noticed a serious
difference in ranges.  In GURPS, it looks like a ship with hundred million
dollar sensors won't be able to pick up other ships out past three or four
hundred thousand miles, and maximum weapon ranges for the big spinals are
even shorter than that.

Traveller, I think, has always had *much* longer ranges than that.  Book 2
talks about picking up ships 10 million miles out, although it does say
that a completely quiet ship can get to within 100,000 miles prior to
detection.  Bruce's DSR for FFS2 gives us sensor ranges in the tens of
millions..well OK, millions for ships, but *still* 10 times standard GURPS
ranges for less cost.

Then there is the issue of "grav focused" lasers.  The GURPS range for
lasers is probably about right...if they aren't "grav focused." However in
Traveller we've grown use to them being extended by gravity to much longer
ranges.  This is a technology that doesn't appear anywhere in GURPS, as far
as I can tell.


Eris
- -- 
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eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #511
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 22 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 512



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Speaking of Sensors!
Re: Misjumps?
Re: Is the 100-diameter limit planetary or solar?
Re: Misjumps?
Re: Er... (Thursters and Fusion Plants)
Re: Jump points (was Milieu 0 adventure hooks)
Re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)
Re: Is the 100-diameter limit planetary or solar?
Re: Misjumps?
Re: Is the 100-diameter limit planetary or solar?
Newsgroups
re: Speaking of Sensors!
Re: Speaking of Sensors!
RE: Traveller-digest V1998 #511
Re: Starflight and Traveller
Searching the archives...
Re: (long term feul consumption)
re: Subject: Er... (Thursters and Fusion Plants)
Re: STL ships (was Er... (Thursters and Fusion Plants))
Re: Misjumps?
Re: Misjumps?
New "Classic" Traveller Product

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:57:04 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Speaking of Sensors!

>Folks, I want to raise a GURPS <--> Traveller issue that hasn't been talked
>about yet...sensor and weapon ranges.

I'll pretty much stand by my FFS2/DSR sensor ranges; one can tweak them a 
little, but basically, ships are big and bright and space is dark. 
(And I'd be happy to consider having them included in GURPSTRAV.)

>Traveller, I think, has always had *much* longer ranges than that.  Book 2
>talks about picking up ships 10 million miles out, although it does say
>that a completely quiet ship can get to within 100,000 miles prior to
>detection.  Bruce's DSR for FFS2 gives us sensor ranges in the tens of
>millions..well OK, millions for ships
It's kind of amusing that all that simulation work just duplicated Book 2 :-)

>Then there is the issue of "grav focused" lasers.  The GURPS range for
>lasers is probably about right...if they aren't "grav focused." However in
>Traveller we've grown use to them being extended by gravity to much longer
>ranges.  This is a technology that doesn't appear anywhere in GURPS, as far
>as I can tell.

I think Traveller combat needs long weapon ranges to match the high acceleration
of the ships; otherwise combat consists of 30 seconds of firing followed by 
hours of decellerating and turning around for the next pass, or combat
only occurs between consensting ships. Whether those long ranges should be
achieved through grav focus, handwaving, or just making x-ray lasers practical
earlier is a good question...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 98 14:09:20 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

On 05/22/98 at 09:13 AM,  Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com> said:

>> Someone Else wrote:
>> >5: Also makes it hard to discover jump drive when your homeworld is 2
>> >parsecs from the nearest star.  If all J-1s just blow up or fail, why
>> >would they continue the development which leads to J-2?

>You _have_ to be able to jump into empty space. Otherwise
>the Solomani can't discover Jump Drive. Which would kind of
>a) suck and b) destroy all of canonical Traveller history.

That only follows if "discovery" of Jump 1 must preceed "discovery" of Jump
2.  And it assumes that the Solomani really did invent jump...and I've
always half suspected...;->

>> Which helps to explain why so few races discovered jump drive? ;->

>Eris, don't get me started. We all know that jump drive is
>"discovered" like gold, not like gravity.

...like "planted" gold, perhaps?  We know what the Solomani *say* about
their discovery of jump drive, but we don't know what really happened.  I
could *discover* an unknown Aztec temple buried in the jungle, but that
doesn't mean I built it.

I won't allow jumping to empty space...IMTU...and I'll let "history" take
care of itself.


Eris,
    still a Heretic..after all these years. ;->
- -- 
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 98 14:16:41 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Is the 100-diameter limit planetary or solar?

On 05/22/98 at 10:09 AM,  "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca> said:

>Is the 100-diameter limit planetary or solar?
>I think the LBBs say it's planetary -- of course, back in
>1978 one didn't have measurements for the stars in Traveller, so of course
>it was planetary.

>Should the 100 solar diameter limit be used also?

Yes, but I, for one, have problems with 100 diameters from small bodies. I
still think it should apply only to GG's and up...if you apply it at all.

>Jens Makus says such a rule would measure 4.5AU for our system.

I still want to know what he means by that. The 4.5AU figure Jens quoted
must be something other than 100 diameters of the sun.

Eris
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 98 14:19:44 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

On 05/22/98 at 11:33 AM,  "Buston, John" <john.buston@eds.com> said:

>Sun           530 (nearly to the orbit of Jupiter)

Jens, is this what you had in mind with your 4.5AU number?

>For other star types e.g. red giants, black holes and neutron stars
>'diameters' cease to be a useful measure.

Interesting measures, actually, if I follow you correctly.

Eris
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 15:26:09 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Er... (Thursters and Fusion Plants)

> Your either going in a ship big enough to do a full closed ecology (algae,
> hydroponics for growing food...) which will be a *lot* larger than 100
> tons, or you're going frozen and hoping that nothing breaks.  Also,

Not if you're getting nice and yummy fauxflesh meat and such.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 98 14:27:35 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Jump points (was Milieu 0 adventure hooks)

On 05/22/98 at 11:16 AM,  yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich) said:

>>To be honest, I really like the idea of fixed Jump points, especially if
>>they are in very close to the star...say 20 solar diameters out.

>Sure would be easy to defend such a system. Just stack up every defense
>the system has to offer at the jump points. Assumably, anything that comes
>through is then dead upon arrival, if hostile.

>Talk about the need for an overwhelming invasion force ... :-)

Right, giving really big battles at the jump point, and the need for *huge*
ships operating within *huge* fleets on both sides of the battles. That
sounds about right.

The only requirement is that the fleet would have to be able to jump in
together...and we're told that *can* be done.


Eris

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 21:57:20 +0000
From: "Jens.Maskus" <Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)

Yes your right, but you are only considering diameter. i always thought GDW was wrong comparing 
density of a star and a terrestrial planet. i always take the gravity of earth at 100 EARThDIAMETER 
as the _GRAVITY_ JUMPZONE LIMIT transfer this gravity to our star it is more than 4 AUs!

Jens

On Fri, 22 May 1998 00:10:50 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:

>In mail you write:
>
>> Everything is fine. But consider the REAL SOLAR 100 DIAMETER is
>> around 4.5 AU from Sol so it is a very long journey at one gee from
>> earth to jumpzone even using a running jump manuver. You count the
>> days not hours.
>
>An AU is 1.496e11 meters. The radius of the sun is 6.96e8 meters.
>
>limit = 200 * 6.96e8
>limit = 1.392e11
>
>1.392e11/1.496e11 = .93 AU
>
>So the 100 diameter limit for Sol is less than 1 AU.
>
>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 21:59:12 +0000
From: "Jens.Maskus" <Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Subject: Re: Is the 100-diameter limit planetary or solar?

Hi,

i will give exactly figures in my next letter.

Jens


On 22 May 1998 10:09 EDT, Robert Eaglestone wrote:

>Is the 100-diameter limit planetary or solar?
>I think the LBBs say it's planetary -- of course, back in
>1978 one didn't have measurements for the stars in Traveller,
>so of course it was planetary.
>
>Should the 100 solar diameter limit be used also?
>
>Jens Makus says such a rule would measure 4.5AU for our system.
>
>This would make patrols more difficult (how much more?) and
>would make piracy more do-able (how much more?).
>
>Rob
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 15:59:04 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 05/22/98 at 09:13 AM,  Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com> said:
>
> >> Someone Else wrote:
> >> >5: Also makes it hard to discover jump drive when your homeworld is 2
> >> >parsecs from the nearest star.  If all J-1s just blow up or fail, why
> >> >would they continue the development which leads to J-2?
>
> >You _have_ to be able to jump into empty space. Otherwise
> >the Solomani can't discover Jump Drive. Which would kind of
> >a) suck and b) destroy all of canonical Traveller history.
>
> That only follows if "discovery" of Jump 1 must preceed "discovery" of Jump
> 2.  And it assumes that the Solomani really did invent jump...and I've
> always half suspected...;->

Since Jump 1 allows for jumps within the system, they may have always used it
to explore and colonize Sol system.  Then one day, somebody thinks "Hmm... what
if we..." and poof!  Jump 2 was invented.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 22:07:02 +0000
From: "Jens.Maskus" <Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Subject: Re: Is the 100-diameter limit planetary or solar?

Hi,

here comes the exact figures for Stars out of my programm:

  Graviticpoint = (sqrt(StarMass.ss*SolMass/(0.0025*EarthAcc/Gamma))/1000)/AU
  Jumppoint = (sqrt(StarMass.ss*SolMass/(0.000025*EarthAcc/Gamma))/1000)/AU

0.0025 is the 10 DIA gravity froam earth
0.000025 is the 100 DIA gravity from earth.

i am following this rule with following arguments:

GDW has neglectect most simple physics. And GDW always talked of planetary diameters and starhsip 
have to bee out of the star gravity well too. Solomani discoverd Jumpdrive far out in there belt. 
Further is you take sol instead of earth nearly all small moons would have there jumplimits inside.

A have always considering a maximum size of starship. no more sky raiders ;-))

Jens


On 22 May 1998 10:09 EDT, Robert Eaglestone wrote:

>Is the 100-diameter limit planetary or solar?
>I think the LBBs say it's planetary -- of course, back in
>1978 one didn't have measurements for the stars in Traveller,
>so of course it was planetary.
>
>Should the 100 solar diameter limit be used also?
>
>Jens Makus says such a rule would measure 4.5AU for our system.
>
>This would make patrols more difficult (how much more?) and
>would make piracy more do-able (how much more?).
>
>Rob
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 21:21:04 +0100
From: Hugh Foster <HughFoster@Servisair.co.uk>
Subject: Newsgroups

I have to say, I have never managed to get on to a newsgroup and haven't
the time to pick through the shite they're infested with so if the list
moved there it'd lose me for a start.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 98 15:39:23 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: re: Speaking of Sensors!

On 05/22/98 at 11:57 AM,  bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) said:

>>Folks, I want to raise a GURPS <--> Traveller issue that hasn't been talked
>>about yet...sensor and weapon ranges.

>I'll pretty much stand by my FFS2/DSR sensor ranges; one can tweak them a 
>little, but basically, ships are big and bright and space is dark.  (And
>I'd be happy to consider having them included in GURPSTRAV.)

Maybe my numbers are off, but this is what I figured...

Sample from GURPS:

    Max Range           Weight     Volume      Cost     Power   Scan
    3,000,000 miles   150,000 lb  30,000 cf $120.3 mil   neg     49
    
Sample from FFS2:

    Max Range       Area    Vol   Mass   Power  Cost    Sensitivity
    5,000,000 km    1.0     1.0   1.0     neg  5Mcr       13.0
    
So, I guess you *can* build similarly ranged sensors, but look at the cost! 
Not to mention the mass and volume difference.  More
appropriately sized sensors are down in the 100 to 200 thousand mile range. 


You know, if the range quoted in Vehicles was the *effective* range and not
the maximum it might work out. Let me see...

A 100,000 mile sensor has a scan of 40.  A typical Scout has a Size Mod of
7, traveling at 100mps (29).  Let's try picking it up a 2,000,000 miles
(-54)...

    40+7+29-54 = 22 <--- automatic detection, recognition, & id!
    
...the book says *maximum* though, and says don't even bother checking past
max range.  Of course, the 100,000 mile sensor still masses 25 tons, takes
up 20dt volume and costs over $40 million!

>>Traveller, I think, has always had *much* longer ranges than that.  Book 2
>>talks about picking up ships 10 million miles out, although it does say
>>that a completely quiet ship can get to within 100,000 miles prior to
>>detection.  Bruce's DSR for FFS2 gives us sensor ranges in the tens of
>>millions..well OK, millions for ships

>It's kind of amusing that all that simulation work just duplicated Book 2
>:-)

Isn't it though. ;->

>>Then there is the issue of "grav focused" lasers.  The GURPS range for
>>lasers is probably about right...if they aren't "grav focused." However in
>>Traveller we've grown use to them being extended by gravity to much longer
>>ranges.  This is a technology that doesn't appear anywhere in GURPS, as far
>>as I can tell.

>I think Traveller combat needs long weapon ranges to match the high
>acceleration of the ships; otherwise combat consists of 30 seconds of
>firing followed by  hours of decellerating and turning around for the next
>pass, or combat only occurs between consensting ships. Whether those long
>ranges should be achieved through grav focus, handwaving, or just making
>x-ray lasers practical earlier is a good question...

I was using the GURPS design for x-ray lasers...

                     1/2D Range       Max Range    Damage
500MJ X-Ray laser   31,338 miles    94,013 miles  6dx110(2)

...about 1.5 hex at .5D range and 5 hexes max range.  This was with all the
tweeks, I could give it.  I prefer shorter ranged combat than most folks
here, but this is *too* short for me..I'd multiply by 4, at least...maybe
6.

Eris

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 13:46:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Sensors!

Bruce Alan Macintosh writes:
> 
> I'll pretty much stand by my FFS2/DSR sensor ranges; one can tweak them a 
> little, but basically, ships are big and bright and space is dark. 
> (And I'd be happy to consider having them included in GURPSTRAV.)

Bah, you make the mistake of assuming that the fact your sensor _can_ pick up a
ship means that you have a detectable chance of actually doing so -- while a
human with a 20cm telescope can reasonably see a visual magnitude +12-15 object
(corresponding to a signature-0 object at 10 light-seconds) the odds of
actually spotting any specific object of that type is vanishingly low -- new
comets can reasonably be visible for a couple months at AVM 12+ before being
spotted, and given the number of people trying to spot them we can figure the
odds of actually finding such an object are somewhere around 10^-6 per hour. 
Computers could help this somewhat, though with current technology they don't
really help all that much.  Looking through your DSR, to account for signal
processing issues I'd probably replace all sensor ratings with (R/2+5), the
best T4 sensors should be worth a sensitivity of around +12.5

Note that GURPS Vehicles makes the same errors, however ;).
> I think Traveller combat needs long weapon ranges to match the high
> acceleration of the ships; otherwise combat consists of 30 seconds of
> firing followed by  hours of decellerating and turning around for the next
> pass, or combat only occurs between consensting ships. Whether those long
> ranges should be achieved through grav focus, handwaving, or just making
> x-ray lasers practical earlier is a good question...

Well, with the exception of high-acceleration interplanetary trips ships
probably won't have more than few G-hours of velocity, and a laser range of .1
light-seconds (1 BL hex) is perfectly practical in GURPS.  Most likely, long
range or no, combat between ships will only occur either near a planet (at
which point speeds will probably be fairly low, figure ships pass through one
another's range in 10-20 minutes) or between consenting ships.
Also, something which brings thruster-plate endurance down to sane levels would
help here, otherwise a 1-G ship going from a world to a nearby gas giant tends
to reach speeds of around .5% of C, which cuts combat to 5 minutes or less even
with grav-focus lasers.

Well, GURPS allows X-lasers reasonably early, with a range of about 1 BL hex

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 16:01:58 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1998 #511

Agreed. As a matter of fact, this, IMO, was apparent during the Fifth
Frontier
War, both in the rules of the board game and in the TNS entries of the
TAS
Journal which document events of the war. Some star systems were
secured so fast (i.e. less than a week) that it was scary.

However, keep in mind that any system considered critical by the Imperium
would have the best sensors credits can buy, backed up by deep meson
gun sites under the planet's surface and very likely under the surface of
any orbital moon. Combine the speed of HiStellar automation with
lightspeed notification and you have major planetary defenses which
can go on "War Alert" with minutes, if not seconds, of a command
decision being made. One example of a credible defense being mounted
in the teeth of the best the Zhos could mount was that of Jewell. It was
one of the initial targets and the sucker *never* fell, despite being
TL13
(one level _below_ the Zhos' best).

Of course, having both a Scout base and an Imperial Naval base didn't
hurt.

> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Fri, 22 May 98 12:55:04 -0500
> From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
> Subject: Re: Misjumps?
> 
> On 05/22/98 at 01:11 AM,  "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com> said:
> 
> The other thing that has always bothered me about the "100 diameters
> from...Earth" is that a fleet could appear from out of nowhere right
> on the
> planet's doorstep. A fleet jumping in a hundred diameters from Earth
> would
> be able to launch an attack before a credible defense could be
> mounted.
> 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 17:08:45 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Starflight and Traveller

I have the Sega Gen version. What did they dumb down?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 16:36:36 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Searching the archives...

I ran across the following in a 1993 TML post and couldn't resist resurrecting
it as it reminded me of one Traveller campaign I gamed in a long, long time
ago. (My compliments and respect to E.E."Doc" Smith and the creators of
the Space Opera game.)

_Our Space Opera Goes Rolling Along_ (to the tune of the Caisson Song)

	Bluster on, master race.  Kick some ass in hyperspace.
	Our space opera goes rolling along.
	Shoot that Smerp (what a grouch!).  Drag that broad behind a couch.
	Our space opera goes rolling along.

	Fasten seat belts please.
	Here we go at 50 G's!
	Scrape yourselves up off the floor.
	If this violence offends,
	Burn a cockroach with your Lens.
	Our space opera goes rolling along.

	Not a rest-room in sight!  (second cluster on your right...)
	Our space opera goes rolling along.
	Solitare getting dull?  Something's eating through the hull.
	Our space opera goes rolling along.
	Batten down the stuff!  
	Negaspace is getting rough.
	Should have camped out on Deneb 3.
	Scramble eggs or scramble guts,
	Just remember which is what.
	Our space opera goes rolling along.

	Power up!  Screens aglow!  Battle stations!  Here we go!
	Our space opera goes rolling along.
	Never lose your aplomb (try an antimatter bomb).
	Our space opera goes rolling along.

	Well, it's crack! crack! crack!
	All the screens are turning black.
	Shoot!  What the heck do we do now?
	Choose another from our stacks;
	Half price on all paperbacks.
	Our space opera goes rolling along.
					--- Jeff Dunteman 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 15:48:14 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: (long term feul consumption)

 
> >>Er, No. Doesn't this make interstellar travel *without* jump drive
> >>possible in a small ship?
> >Yep. That's one of a few million little things I haven't completely solved
> >just yet. 
> 
> Take the T4 view that thruster plates only work "well" inside a mild
> gravity well (out to about 20AU from the sun, for example.)

Interstellar travel with jump is possible now. Where's Pioneer gonna
be in a couple hundred years?

Regardless of what you do with t-plates the best possible travel
time would approach the separation of the two systems in light
years--so a jump one even at 0.9999c would take over 3 years. And
however long it takes to get to that velocity, you need the same
amount of time to brake on the other end (and fuel for the PP).

We always had that in campaigns. Hell, that's what the low berth is
for when you misjump :-) (that or you starve to death or run out of
air)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 09:24:11 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: re: Subject: Er... (Thursters and Fusion Plants)

At 11:22 AM 22/05/98 -0700, Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:
>
>
>>This sort of thing is only if thruster plates don't have a cut off.  Even
>>if the cut-off is 2,000 AU (as in FFS2)
>The cutoff was actually supposed to be around a thousand diameters (or
>20 AU) - to make refuelling in a system's Oort cloud or Kuiper belt
impractical.
>(Otherwise, a fleet can always "ice refuel" in any hostile system with
>little chance of interception - outside 20AUs there are too many comets/
>KBOs/misc iceballs for any defender to guard.)
>
>It also makes deep space refuelling stations awkward but not impossible,
>which is about right for "canon".

However according to my analysis you can still get up to some god awefull
velocities. On the upside using thrusters makes GG refueling followed (or
preceeded by) a trip to/from the main world somewhat practical. With HEPLaR
the transit times are so long that, in our solar system anyway, it's just
not worth the bother.

I originally ran the figures because I was trying to see whether thrusters
would piracy easier or harder. That they make in system transits practical
might make piracy more possible because there's a bigger volume to patrol,
though mid-course intercepts will be _very_ hard, making patrols easier
because you only need to patrol the likely end-points. OTOH thrusters make
trips to and from jump points much faster, so in that respect they make
piracy harder. I'm still undecided, blast it.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 09:15:57 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: STL ships (was Er... (Thursters and Fusion Plants))

At 11:16 AM 22/05/98 -0500, Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:

>The problem I have with the 200-year supply in Gurps Vehicles is a quibble
>-- I prefer numbers. How much fuel is a 200-year supply? I just wanna know,
>and in a gearhead book like G:V, I expect it to be there.

Yep, especially seeing as for some very tight designs dropping the
endurance to 1 year, or even a month might be accepable and give you that
little bit of space/mass you needed.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 09:26:58 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

At 01:05 PM 22/05/98 -0500, Eris wrote:

>In reason I've always liked the idea of fixed jump points was to get away
>from the "fleet pops up" problem (at least, *I* see it as a problem), and
>force long trips across systems by ships. 

One answer would be to start using the gravity gradient as the criteria, or
the field strength. This means that in many systems the jump points will be
way out from the main worlds because they'll be determined by the star, not
the target planet.
   


- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 09:40:36 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

At 12:55 PM 22/05/98 -0500, Eris wrote:

>The other thing that has always bothered me about the "100 diameters
>from...Earth" is that a fleet could appear from out of nowhere right on the
>planet's doorstep. A fleet jumping in a hundred diameters from Earth would
>be able to launch an attack before a credible defense could be mounted.
>This is a *bad* thing for gameplay, IMO, and in one of my games will not
>routinely happen.  Ship's jumping in should have to spend several hours
>travelling from the jump point to their destination, and IMTU 100 d from a
>planet won't do it.

Even in canon MT and TNE 100 diameters from Earth is way too close. In MT
it's about 50 range bands, and as extreme combat range goes out to 100 or
200 hundred bands (the books aren't clear, surprise, surprise) you can jump
in and start shooting. In TNE 100 diameters caomes to about 42 hexes, which
is just about the maximum range you can hit a really big ship. You can also
easily shoot stationary targets from that range.

This makes attack and defense a matter of who shoots first - no tactics,
etc needed. The defender would have about 4 - 8 defense squadrons spread
evenly around the 100 dia. sphere about 50 diameters out. The attacker
jumps in and then it's just a race to see who can aquire and hit the
opponent first.
- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 15:04:25 -0600
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: New "Classic" Traveller Product

First off - I've lost Marc's email addresses...could someone please email it
to me.

I am in the midst of talks with Andrew Keith about the possible release of
his Classic Traveller book "Letter of Marque" (originally intended for
Gamelords, which went bust just prior to it's scheduled publication). We are
talking about the feasibility of (if Marc will allow it of course) making
100 (spiral-bound, with covers) copies of the original 80 page
(double-sided) manuscript and my selling it *at cost* to the members of the
TML (and the Usenet FRP newsgroup if there are any leftover copies).

Even if Marc is willing to wave any lic. fee for this one-time printing, to
cover my costs (fee to Andrew, possible fee to Marc, printing costs of 100
copies, postage) the price would be roughly $14-15.00 per book (that price
would include postage within North America, add an additional $1 for orders
outside that area).

*** My question to the list is this - How many of you would be interested in
buying this 'Classic Traveller' era book? I would need to be reasonably
certain that I could sell at least 70 of the 100 copies before I am willing
to invest my time and effort (as well as money ;) in this project. ***

Before I'm swamped with email requesting more detail of what's in  the
manuscript... 

"Letter of Marque" was to be  the first in a series of Traveller source
books  called "Rogues in Space" by Andrew Keith dealing with
Piracy/Merchants/Etc. in the Traveller universe (actually, LOM was to be
released as a boxed module). At 80 pages (well - actually 79 :) LOM covers
just about everything pertaining to space piracy... This is an outline from
the mauscript of what is covered:

> 16-page rules booklet

> One 4-page folio establishing a privateering campaign, set in the
Drexilthar    subsector (against the backdrop of the Ildrissarian Rebellion,
a logical 
  place for privateering actions to set set).

> Four 4-page folios containing descriptions of four specific ship types
that     might be encountered in the campaign, with deck plans, crew lists,
and other    information for staging specific encounters.

> One map providing the subsector (or parts of up to four subsectors) in
which    action takes place.

> One sheet containing, on one side, character creation data for Pirate
characters from "Citizens of the Imperium", and, on the other, a description
and key to deck plans for a 400-ton Corsair-type starship.

> One map holding deck plans of the 400-ton Corsair.

> One sheet containing a SYSTEM SEARCH DISPLAY, would would permit
maneuverings within a star system according to rules presented in the main
text. This could be used as part of almost any ship combat situation where
searches and stalking were integral to the situation.

> One sheet containing various templates for ships and small worlds for use 
  with the Traveller miniature rules for starship comat.

Whew..I think I've covered everything. 

L8r,
Paul Sanders
timmon@primenet.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #512
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 23 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 513



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Speaking of Sensors!
re: Speaking of Sensors!
Re: Speaking of Sensors!
Re: Starflight and Traveller
Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product
Re: Speaking of Sensors!
Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product
Re: Speaking of Sensors!
Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product
Re: Starflight and Traveller
Re: Misjumps?
Re: Starflight and Traveller
Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product
Re: Milieu 0 adventure hooks
Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product
Re: Speaking of Sensors!
re: Speaking of Sensors!
re: Speaking of Sensors!
Re: Milieu 0 adventure hooks
GURPS Sensor Repost
Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product 
Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 15:32:48 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Speaking of Sensors!

>Sample from GURPS:
>    Max Range           Weight     Volume      Cost     Power   Scan
>    3,000,000 miles   150,000 lb  30,000 cf $120.3 mil   neg     49

What does GURPS define as a "typical" target? The ranges for FFS2 are
for detecting a scoutship-sized target (few hundred megawatts, few hundred
square meters of area.)

>Of course, the 100,000 mile sensor still masses 25 tons, takes
>up 20dt volume and costs over $40 million!

Good god! That buys you about a 4-m telescope at current prices, which 
should certainly be able to see a spaceship in space at ranges greater than
100,000 miles...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 15:33:53 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Speaking of Sensors!

>I was using the GURPS design for x-ray lasers...
>                     1/2D Range       Max Range    Damage
>500MJ X-Ray laser   31,338 miles    94,013 miles  6dx110(2)

What's the diameter and wavelength? 

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 15:32:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Sensors!

Eris Reddoch writes:

> You know, if the range quoted in Vehicles was the *effective* range and not
> the maximum it might work out. Let me see...

The range is 'effective' range, with the exception of active sensors.
> 
> A 100,000 mile sensor has a scan of 40.  A typical Scout has a Size Mod of
> 7, traveling at 100mps (29).  Let's try picking it up a 2,000,000 miles
> (-54)...
> 
>     40+7+29-54 = 22 <--- automatic detection, recognition, & id!

This is incorrect, the rules for moving objects in Vehicles are somewhat
broken, but the actual effect of travelling at 100 mps is to compute range as
if it were 1,999,900 miles instead of 2,000,000 miles ;).  Also, 100,000 miles
is a scan of 41, and for $40m it looks like you're talking 100,000 mile
atmospheric range, space range is x10(+6 scan).  The actual roll would be:
41 (scan)+6(space)+7(size)-54(range)+skill = skill.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 18:55:41 -0400
From: Journey <jjgray@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Starflight and Traveller

At 05:08 PM 5/22/98 EDT, SethKimmel wrote:
>I have the Sega Gen version. What did they dumb down?

From what I can tell, the game has been changed to make the plot the main
focus of the Genesis version. In the original version the plot was
important, but almost secondary to the exploration of the planet. Also, I
found interaction with the alien races not nearly as much fun because it
was a little too easy. They tended to tell me more without me chasing them
around. Of course, I'm a bit wierd when it comes to computer games.

Jay

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 19:05:15 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product

I would buy up to ten of them to help defray the costs, so count me in.  You
can also contact me directly and I will do a search for a publishing house
in the "Greater Boston Area" to try and get the printing expenses down.  In
other words lets get it printed I want it.

Thom

- -----Original Message-----
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: New "Classic" Traveller Product


>I am in the midst of talks with Andrew Keith about the possible release of
>his Classic Traveller book "Letter of Marque" . We are talking about the
> feasibility of making 100 (spiral-bound, with covers) copies of the original
> 80 page (double-sided) manuscript and my selling it *at cost* to the
> members of the TML (and the Usenet FRP newsgroup if there are any
> leftover copies).
>
>Even if Marc is willing to wave any lic. fee for this one-time printing, to
>cover my costs (fee to Andrew, possible fee to Marc, printing costs of 100
>copies, postage) the price would be roughly $14-15.00 per book (that price
>would include postage within North America, add an additional $1 for orders
>outside that area).
>
>*** My question to the list is this - How many of you would be interested
in
>buying this 'Classic Traveller' era book? I would need to be reasonably
>certain that I could sell at least 70 of the 100 copies before I am willing
>to invest my time and effort (as well as money ;) in this project. ***

>L8r,
>Paul Sanders
>timmon@primenet.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 16:05:54 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Speaking of Sensors!

>> I'll pretty much stand by my FFS2/DSR sensor ranges; one can tweak them a 
>> little, but basically, ships are big and bright and space is dark. 
>> (And I'd be happy to consider having them included in GURPSTRAV.)

>Bah, you make the mistake of assuming that the fact your sensor _can_ pick up a
>ship means that you have a detectable chance of actually doing so -- while a
>human with a 20cm telescope can reasonably see a visual magnitude +12-15 object
>(corresponding to a signature-0 object at 10 light-seconds) the odds of
>actually spotting any specific object of that type is vanishingly low -- new
>comets can reasonably be visible for a couple months at AVM 12+ before being
>spotted, and given the number of people trying to spot them we can figure the
>odds of actually finding such an object are somewhere around 10^-6 per hour. 
>Computers could help this somewhat, though with current technology they don't
>really help all that much.  Looking through your DSR, to account for signal
>processing issues I'd probably replace all sensor ratings with (R/2+5), the
>best T4 sensors should be worth a sensitivity of around +12.5

I'll admit that I didn't calculate the signal processing issues (on the
assumption that trying to predict future computer capability is silly)
I should note that no-one is trying to look for comets in any sort of 
systematic way. If one wanted to - and could spend tens of millions of dollars
(the price of a good scanner at TL-8) it's probably not impossible even at
current tech levels. A list of  all the stars in the sky down to 15th
magnitude (the HST guide star catalog) is less than a gigabyte; there's about 
10^7 - 10^8 stars in it. It'll fit in memory on a high-end computer. 
The sensor computer needs to identify every one of those stars every hour
or so and compare each object it's detected to that list - maybe ten operations
per star to measure its position and twenty to do a comparison to the indexed
list and decide if it needs to be flagged as discrepant => 10^9 operations
per hour, which is *easy* for current computer technology. Software 
development would be expensive but that's in the fixed costs. 
(An interesting comparison is LLNL's MACHO microlensing search, which 
analyzes the brightness of perhaps 20 million stars every night and compares
them to template brightnesses to detect brightening of stars that indicates
a lensing event; take a look at wwwmacho.mcmaster.ca for an overview.) 
Astronomers in general - and NASA in particular - have tended to be astonishingly
conservative about large-scale automated projects, though that's (thankfully)
changing. 

A couple of other notes: the volume that goes with each m2 of sensor in FFS2
includes computers (so bigger sensors have more computer power -this is 
part of why they're so expensive.) In addition, there are a couple of cues
that help one pick out starships from stars - they're distinctively much
brighter in the infrared and in the visible they match the spectrum of the
local star (though of course part of what a Military Black coating and 
Thermal Masking buys you is looking more like a star); and, of course, 
starships move relative to the background and can be picked out accordingly.
(The detection levels in the DSR don't represent marginal detections - in 
fact, they represent four 10-sigma detections over the course of half an
hour.) 

(The next edition of the DSR will, though, have a couple of rules in it to
model some of this. The first is the concept of "shadowing" - if you 
precisely match the velocity of a target it's harder for it to detect
you, because you no longer have relative motion and look like a star.
The second is "charting" - for the first few hours inside a never-before-
visited system effective sensor sensitivities are lower because you don't know
where all the local asteroids are (and haven't built up a precise star
database) and hence can't tell ships from stars as easily.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 16:21:26 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product

I'd be interested.  Since I'm used to paying IG prices, I'm sure you could
arrange a reasonable licensing fee with Marc, and still come out ahead!  :)

I'll even go easy on comments about the artwork!

douglas

- -- 
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 17:25:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Sensors!

Bruce Alan Macintosh writes:
> I'll admit that I didn't calculate the signal processing issues (on the
> assumption that trying to predict future computer capability is silly)
That's no sillier than predicting future capability for other technologies;
it's just that Traveller got badly burned on this in the past ;)

> I should note that no-one is trying to look for comets in any sort of 
> systematic way. If one wanted to - and could spend tens of millions of
> dollars (the price of a good scanner at TL-8) it's probably not impossible
> even at current tech levels. A list of  all the stars in the sky down to
> 15th magnitude (the HST guide star catalog) is less than a gigabyte; there's
> about  10^7 - 10^8 stars in it. It'll fit in memory on a high-end computer. 
Actually, I think it works out to several gigs, I'd probably want about a
hundred bytes to account for the various false positives you will get for
things like variable brightness stars.

> The sensor computer needs to identify every one of those stars every hour
> or so and compare each object it's detected to that list - maybe ten
> operations per star to measure its position and twenty to do a comparison
> to the indexed list and decide if it needs to be flagged as discrepant =>
> 10^9 operations per hour, which is *easy* for current computer technology.
Actually, the computer effort for doing the index and compare is probably off
by an order of magnitude (a binary search on 10^8 objects is 27 comparisons,
and is probably at least 10 operations per compare), but that's not the real
problem, simply generating a 10 milliradian map (enough to detect objects in
the asteroid belt by their motion) is at least 10^12 operations (and requires
about that much memory if you want to save it all); 10 milliradians isn't
crucial, but get above 100 milliradians and you're going to predictably lose
objects against stars.  Still, if computers are sufficiently godly it can still
be done.  Of course, in addition to that you have to update your wandering
objects map (quite a lot of operations) and of course you want to separately
scan for transient events.  Still, detecting objects out to AVM +15 doesn't
bother me that much...but you make it reasonable to detect objects out to AVM
+25, which is easily another 5 orders of magnitude in effort.
> 
> A couple of other notes: the volume that goes with each m2 of sensor in
> FFS2 includes computers (so bigger sensors have more computer power -this
> is  part of why they're so expensive.) In addition, there are a couple of
> cues that help one pick out starships from stars - they're distinctively
> much brighter in the infrared and in the visible they match the spectrum of
> the local star (though of course part of what a Military Black coating and 
> Thermal Masking buys you is looking more like a star); and, of course, 
> starships move relative to the background and can be picked out
> accordingly. (The detection levels in the DSR don't represent marginal
> detections - in  fact, they represent four 10-sigma detections over the
> course of half an hour.) 

Well, all the 'distinctive clues' don't really affect the ability to generate
your sensor map, but they probably add another order of magnitude to 
> 
> (The next edition of the DSR will, though, have a couple of rules in it to
> model some of this. The first is the concept of "shadowing" - if you 
> precisely match the velocity of a target it's harder for it to detect
> you, because you no longer have relative motion and look like a star.
> The second is "charting" - for the first few hours inside a never-before-
> visited system effective sensor sensitivities are lower because you don't
> know where all the local asteroids are (and haven't built up a precise
> star database) and hence can't tell ships from stars as easily.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 19:54:48 -0700
From: warlock@imagin.net
Subject: Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product

Paul Sanders posted to the TML:
> 
> I am in the midst of talks with Andrew Keith about the possible
> release of his Classic Traveller book "Letter of Marque" 

At $15 each, I'd take four!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 20:11:04 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Starflight and Traveller

From where?

Kelly St.Clair wrote:

> Another, slightly more baroque way to play STARFLIGHT on a modern computer
> is to download a SEGA Genesis emulator and the rom image of the STARFLIGHT
> cartridge for that system.  Runs just fine, though I haven't had time to
> play with it very much yet.
>
> --------------
> Kelly St.Clair
> kellys@efn.org



- --
Robert the Lonely

Http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/4467

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 98 20:05:44 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

On 05/23/98 at 09:26 AM,  Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz> said:

>>In reason I've always liked the idea of fixed jump points was to get away
>>from the "fleet pops up" problem (at least, *I* see it as a problem), and
>>force long trips across systems by ships. 

>One answer would be to start using the gravity gradient as the criteria,
>or the field strength. This means that in many systems the jump points
>will be way out from the main worlds because they'll be determined by the
>star, not the target planet.

I already do that, Rupert. I don't know if I want to go as far out as Jens
has in mind, but somewhere in the 2.5 to 3 AU area for G2V stars would be
good. Or, like I posted earlier, in close to the star.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 20:15:27 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Starflight and Traveller

I have tried both AT-SLOW and ICD/ICE.  Neither of them will work on my P100.
Any ideas on how to slow down a Pentium?



- --
Robert the Lonely

Http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/4467

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 98 20:12:52 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product

On 05/22/98 at 03:04 PM,  Sanders <timmon@primenet.com> said:

>I am in the midst of talks with Andrew Keith about the possible release of
>his Classic Traveller book "Letter of Marque" (originally intended for
>Gamelords, which went bust just prior to it's scheduled publication).

>*** My question to the list is this - How many of you would be interested
>in buying this 'Classic Traveller' era book? 

You've got one sale right here! 

And I don't think you'll have any trouble selling out your print run.

Now, is there *any* chance Andrew Keith might be interested in working on
more titles in his proposed series?


Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 21:07:26 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Milieu 0 adventure hooks

- -----Original Message-----
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, May 22, 1998 1:23 AM
Subject: Re: Milieu 0 adventure hooks


>So?  Alter how Jump works in your game to require fixed Alderman (or is it
>Alderson) Jump Points.  If you put them mostly far into the outer system,
>like JP's universe, you'll have to endure long stl
>hauls between J-Point and inner system.  Or, otoh, you can put them really
>close to the Star, I'm sure an appropriate handwave can be found, and
>you'll have shorter distances to travel from J-Point to planets, but
>virtually eliminate outer systems from exploration/use.
>
>To be honest, I really like the idea of fixed Jump points, especially if
>they are in very close to the star...say 20 solar diameters out.
>
>Eris

Actually I also like the Pournelle version of jump. The Aldersen drive's
fixed points are dependant on gravities intersection with gravitationally
formed tram lines between stars. They are where ever the math works out
right, as in the case of the Mote, the exit point is wihtin the corona of
another star, which is why the Moties couldn't use it unitl intro duced the
"black globe" style sheilds.

However this breaks Trav Canon in several ways. First the Tram lines are
independant of distance so there is no J-1 through J-6 drive. Travel is
instantanious, with extended periods of stl travel fomr j-point to planet or
2nd j-point.

This would negates the Traveller ending to the Interstellar Wars. Earth
would not have the advantage of discovering J-3 to out manuver the Vilani.
Not to mention interstellar war in general becomes a matter of "owning" the
choke points. Fortresses (armed space stations) become a really viable
commodity.

Piracy becomes a much harder job in this situation, if there are jump point
defisive bases then how does a pirate escape? Customs can almost be shifted
to entry and exit of the SYSTEM, not just the world.

Interestingly I beleive this is a better situation for an Empire that
"controls the space, and trade routes between the stars" than the current
situation in Traveller. It's easier to control movement in a maze then in an
open feild. Mapping the J-points becomes really important.

I started to work up this type of universe a while back and the project just
kept escallating as I thought of more and more effects generated by this one
little change. Still working on it from time to time. So I wasn't trying to
say it wasn't a great hook for an adventure, just that it didn't fit very
well in the Canon Traveller universe.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 21:39:31 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product

I like it! I want it! I have to have it!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 98 20:47:54 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Speaking of Sensors!

On 05/22/98 at 03:32 PM,  Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> said:

>> You know, if the range quoted in Vehicles was the *effective* range and not
>> the maximum it might work out. Let me see...

>The range is 'effective' range, with the exception of active sensors. 

I don't see that anywhere, what I *do* see is, "don't bother doing the
calculation if range exceeds maximum range", but I'll take your word for
it.  It *should* be that way.
 
>> A 100,000 mile sensor has a scan of 40.  A typical Scout has a Size Mod of
>> 7, traveling at 100mps (29).  Let's try picking it up a 2,000,000 miles
>> (-54)...
>> 
>>     40+7+29-54 = 22 <--- automatic detection, recognition, & id!

>This is incorrect, 

You're right about the scan being 41, I messed up my calculation...

   scan = log(range^6*10^11)

...this does give 41.

>the rules for moving objects in Vehicles are somewhat
>broken, but the actual effect of travelling at 100 mps is to compute range
>as if it were 1,999,900 miles instead of 2,000,000 miles ;).  

Hum, that's not *at all* what is in the book.  The table on p.168 lists the
Speed Modifier for 100mps (miles per second) as -29, and that speed
subtracts from the Range Modifier..that's the same as adding to the scan
and size modifer..so I still get...

   41+7+29-54=23, and automatic detection

...assuming you are correct about PESA's range actually being the effective
range and not the maximum range.

OTOH, if I do it your way and subtract 100mps from 2,000,000 miles and
figure the modifer from that I get...

   41+7-54= -6

...,and as I read it you only apply this Sensor Modifer to the skill if the
number is between -10 and +10, below that is automatic failure and above is
automatic detection.  So, the -6 would be applied to the Sensor Ops skill
of, let's say 14, giving an 8 (or 26% chance of detection).


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 98 21:30:48 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: re: Speaking of Sensors!

On 05/22/98 at 03:32 PM,  bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) said:

>What does GURPS define as a "typical" target? The ranges for FFS2 are for
>detecting a scoutship-sized target (few hundred megawatts, few hundred
>square meters of area.)

I know, I know!  ;-> GURPS doesn't define a typical target, as best I can
tell.  I was using a 100dt (~50,000cf) target.  I don't think radiated
energy is taken into account..not explictly anyway.  There is a modifier
for the installation of an IR or Emissions cloak, but PESA (the GURPS PEMS)
ignores that modifer.

>>Of course, the 100,000 mile sensor still masses 25 tons, takes
>>up 20dt volume and costs over $40 million!

>Good god! That buys you about a 4-m telescope at current prices, which 
>should certainly be able to see a spaceship in space at ranges greater
>than 100,000 miles...

Sorry, the 100,000 mile rig is only $4.2 million, that's more
reasonable.  It's a 1,000,000 mile PESA that costs $40 million. Anthony,
assures me that I'm wrong about these being maximum ranges, too, so the
ranges might be closer to DSR.

Let's try a 10,000 mile (x10 in space) PESA on a 50,000cf target at some
ranges and see...

Sensor Stats:  Mass = 5,000 lb (2 tons); 
               Volume = 500 cuf (1dt); 
               Price = $4,200,000
Constants
    Operator Skill = 14
    Target size    =  7
    PESA Scan      = 41
                    ----
                     62
                     
            600 Kkm     900Kkm     1.2Mkm     2.4Mkm      4.8Mkm   
           372 Kmile  558 Kmile  774 Kmile  1.548Mmile  3.096Mmiles               

         =========================================================    
Range Mod    -49        -50        -51        -53         -55 Target Num   
13         12         11          9           7
% to detect   84%        74%        63%        38%         16%

Hum, maybe I spoke to soon, this doesn't look too bad.


Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 98 21:38:33 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: re: Speaking of Sensors!

On 05/22/98 at 03:33 PM,  bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) said:

>>I was using the GURPS design for x-ray lasers...
>>                     1/2D Range       Max Range    Damage
>>500MJ X-Ray laser   31,338 miles    94,013 miles  6dx110(2)

>What's the diameter and wavelength? 

No idea about wavelength, just X-Ray. The weight is 18,500 and cost is
$1,870,000.  The diameter of any focusing device must be abstracted,
because I can't find anything about it.  Nothing specific about the volume
of the weapon either, but it must be fit into a turret or bay which *would*
have volume.


Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 98 21:48:34 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Milieu 0 adventure hooks

On 05/22/98 at 09:07 PM,  "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
said:

>I started to work up this type of universe a while back and the project
>just kept escallating as I thought of more and more effects generated by
>this one little change. Still working on it from time to time. So I wasn't
>trying to say it wasn't a great hook for an adventure, just that it didn't
>fit very well in the Canon Traveller universe.

There's that "c" word again...how I hate it!


Eris,
    the Heretic
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 98 22:13:09 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: GURPS Sensor Repost

This part of my previous post didn't come through very well, so here it is
again.


Let's try a 10,000 mile (x10 in space) PESA on a 50,000cf target at some
ranges and see...

Sensor Stats:  Mass = 5,000 lb (2 tons); 
               Volume = 500 cuf (1dt); 
               Price = $4,200,000
Constants
    Operator Skill = 14
    Target size    =  7
    PESA Scan      = 41
                    ----
                     62
                     
            600 Kkm     900Kkm     1.2Mkm     2.4Mkm      4.8Mkm   
           372 Kmile  558 Kmile  774 Kmile  1.548Mmile  3.096Mmiles              


         =========================================================    
 Range Mod    -49        -50        -51        -53         -55 
 Target Num    13         12         11          9           7
 % to detect   84%        74%        63%        38%         16%

Hum, maybe I spoke to soon, this doesn't look too bad.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 01:24:24 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product 

> I am in the midst of talks with Andrew Keith about the possible release of
> his Classic Traveller book "Letter of Marque" (originally intended for
> Gamelords, which went bust just prior to it's scheduled publication). We are
> talking about the feasibility of (if Marc will allow it of course) making
> 100 (spiral-bound, with covers) copies of the original 80 page
> (double-sided) manuscript and my selling it *at cost* to the members of the
> TML (and the Usenet FRP newsgroup if there are any leftover copies).

Dood, I'm *THERE*.  Put me down for one.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 01:27:19 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product 

> Now, is there *any* chance Andrew Keith might be interested in working on
> more titles in his proposed series?

Here, here!!!!!!!

I for one would have liked to see what Andrew had in mind for the entire 
Reavers' Deep sector.  Hell, I'd pay *real American money* for the info.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #513
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 23 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 514



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Piracy
Re: Milieu 0 adventure hooks
Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product
Re: Marches Sourcebook
Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product
M: IW freighter
Re: Misjumps?
Re: Misjumps?
Re: Starflight and Traveller
Re: Searching the archives...
Re: (long term feul consumption)
Re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)
Re: Near C objects (was Ongoing discussion on Gurps: Traveller and others)
Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product
Re: (long term feul consumption)
Re: Starflight and Traveller
Re: "Letter of Marque"  Classic traveller Product Traveller-digest V1998 #512

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 22:27:49 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy

[OK, my goal here is to show that the piracy debate hinges on
a number of assumptions, and each person's answer to the question
depends on how they see those assumptions.  I think I've shown
that and I don't want to get into debating which way
those assumptions should go.  (anyone who was here for the
last debate will know why. :-)]

Fri, 22 May 1998 06:06:29, Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>>Wed, 20 May 1998 19:49:51, Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>>> >Case 1: Piracy on worlds with no (trustworthy) SDBs.
>>
>>Well, this assumes they hide out there afterwards to, rather
>>than just skip out.  It also assumes there is someone in
>>the system for the victim to radio his distress to.
>>

>This is part of why the Imperium developed the doctrine of Subsector Fleets
>under fast-reacting local control. Look at the way the RN used anti-piracy
>and anti-slaving patrols as training up until WW2 for a military
>justification of this doctrine.

Well, the premise of the case was that there was not fleet
present.  Additionally idea that the Imperium patrols each and
every system is an assumption based on what degree they will
go to prevent each and every incidence of piracy and also on
the question of how many ships it would take to patrol a
system and what, if any, costs should be associated with
those patrols.

>Also, within the Imperium, I find it strange that a world has no SDB force
>at all. It just makes too much sense to protect your planets trading
>interests by lending 'training advisers' and hardware to the government of
>the small pop/lo tech/ whatever planet. Half a dozen 25 megacredit fighters
>isnt much of an investment for a big world to make to ensure it's small
>neighbours dont become havens for pirates.

That assumes that piracy occurs by ships dedicated to the task
operating out of havens.

>>> >Case 2: Piracy on worlds with an imperial starport and SDBs.
>>
>>This assumes pirate "hang around" rather than just take targets of
>>opportunity as they pass through.  It also assumes FFS2 sensors.
>>There is also the question of who long it takes to rob, or whatever,
>>a ship (which also ended up depending on assumptions.)  It also assumes
>>that you raid ships jumping in.  There is also the question of
>>how much variation in when you exit throws you off you exit point
>>(by my calc you can be, assuming 30 km/s orbital velocity, 2.6 million
>>km from the 100 diam limit).  However, it would seem to be safer
>>to just concentrate on poorly guarded systems.  I also isn't clear
>>if, once you have the ship, you can use it for cover or take
>>the crew hostage....

>Taking targets of opportunity as they pass through has it's own problems,
>mostly to do with the fact that similar-looking ships can have very
>different armament (missiles turrets may or may not have expensive,
>effective missiles), and you will probably get known as a pirate pretty
>fast and have to get a new fake ID.

Well, this assumes that sensors are unable to distinguish armed
and unarmed ships and that all unarmed ships have at least turrets
installed to look armed (which is contrary to canon).  It also
assumes that pirate never attack ships that are simply smaller
and so less armed.  It also assumes
that you can't fake or alter a ship ID.

>Raiding ships jumping out has the problem of them taking their chances with
>a jump inside the hundred diameter limit, rather than with the ethically
>challenged civilian.

The assumes both that the only way to get away from a patrol is
to jump early.  It also assumes that the patrol is present (see
above).

>Concentrating on poorly guarded systems has the problem of information lag
>- - what systems are poorly guarded right now, assuming that the Subsector
>Fleet shuffles it's assets.

This assumes that if you find a system patrolled, you can't simply
not attack anything.

>Dropping the effective range of sensors is possible, but convoy is still an
>effective response.

Convoy are probably effective.  They do, however, assume a willingness
to bear the cost of such convoys in order to stamp out every last
incidence of piracy.

> The other strategy could be building traders with
>sub-craft - fighters where security is an issue, cargo launches where it
>isnt.

Again, this assumes a willingness to bear the costs.

>Shorter sensor ranges will also mean ethically challenged civilians will
>have a harder time picking up targets, assuming they use similar ships.

This only extends the time between finding targets.  It is only
a problem if you assume the piracy is their sole source of income.

>>What is the endurance of a missle?  I've never heard that it is hours...

>Build em with t-plates and either batteries or TAKAFP at TL12, or with
>Heplar and a baby fusion plant at higher TLs. They'll cost in the
>megacredit range, but be reusable up until point of detonation. You can
>have an IN ensign in charge of them, if your Imperium doesnt allow anyone
>else to use det laser missiles.

They don't exist in the background.  Lots of assumptions about
reusability, costs, ease of counter fire, etc.

>>This assumes that doesn't worry about his velocity (regarding the
>>destination system) until after he comes out of jump (ie always
>>does a running jump).  It also assumes that you don't spot
>>your target at the starport and then just pretend to be another
>>ship going the same spot at the same time....

>How will Traffic Control and the target ship react to this ?

Well, you can assume that it happens all the time and they
won't react at all, or you can assume they will react to
anything the might smack of piracy be delaying ships from
when they want to leave.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 01:38:08 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Milieu 0 adventure hooks

- -----Original Message-----
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, May 22, 1998 11:09 PM
Subject: Re: Milieu 0 adventure hooks


>>
>There's that "c" word again...how I hate it!
>
>
>Eris,
>    the Heretic
>--

Not meant to affend. My own game has diverged from written Canon by enough
that it bears only passing resemblance to the written Traveller history.
However I assumed that the gentleman that started this thread (can't seem to
find the original post) was speaking about "official conversions" for
Traveller.

While I believe that everyones game should reflect his/her own imagination,
I thry and keep anything I intend to try and publish, at least, passingly
close to the official storyline.

That's one of the reasons I moved my own campaign to a small cluster of
stars out on the rim, colonized before the fall of the RoM. Out there by the
1100 they reached TL 17 (18 in some areas). They were just starting to see
virus nearing their home territory (and attempting to capture a virus ship
in order to study and attempt to "convert" the thing to a human freindly
version) when we put that campaign on hold to play with the T4 rules and
M:0. Now there is a great deal of interest to pick it up again. My players
liked the high tech toys and want to get back to them

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 01:41:51 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product

- -----Original Message-----
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, May 22, 1998 6:21 PM
Subject: New "Classic" Traveller Product


>First off - I've lost Marc's email addresses...could someone please email
it
>to me.
>
>I am in the midst of talks with Andrew Keith about the possible release of
>his Classic Traveller book "Letter of Marque" (originally intended for
>Gamelords, which went bust just prior to it's scheduled publication). We
are
>talking about the feasibility of (if Marc will allow it of course) making
>100 (spiral-bound, with covers) copies of the original 80 page
>(double-sided) manuscript and my selling it *at cost* to the members of the
>TML (and the Usenet FRP newsgroup if there are any leftover copies).
>L8r,
>Paul Sanders
>timmon@primenet.com
>

FarFuture@AOL.com , If I recall correctly.

Wanted it ever since reading the Keith interveiw in the MegaTraveller
Journal, where they talked about it.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 00:33:09 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Marches Sourcebook

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> And no Will isn't on our side...what are you a @#$#@ StarFleet stooge? All
> *real* Traveller's are Ferengi at heart...or is that Klingon? ;-p

Agents of the Terran Empire...

- --
Evyn,
Warleader of the Clan MacDude
 Fortalice Desertum
 (Home of the ClusterNuke)
 AD. 1998

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 01:10:16 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product

Sanders wrote:

> I am in the midst of talks with Andrew Keith about the possible release of
> his Classic Traveller book "Letter of Marque" (originally intended for
> Gamelords, which went bust just prior to it's scheduled publication). We are
> talking about the feasibility of (if Marc will allow it of course) making
> 100 (spiral-bound, with covers) copies of the original 80 page
> (double-sided) manuscript and my selling it *at cost* to the members of the
> TML (and the Usenet FRP newsgroup if there are any leftover copies).

If it flies I'll take one.

- --
Evyn,
Warleader of the Clan MacDude
 Fortalice Desertum
 (Home of the ClusterNuke)
 AD. 1998

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 22:59:37 +1200
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: M: IW freighter

The following is a standard merchant ship I have designed for the 
Interstellar Wars period (using Andrew Akin's most wonderful 
spreadsheet). I would greatly appreciate any comments (I have the 
deckplans available).

Gordon Tracy, Tracy class Longship (FF&S v2)
Designed by Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
Statistics
 Tons: 200std (SL Slab Hypersonic)
 Crew: 3/5
 Cargo: 98std (1x60m2 Door, Handling: 1x176ton)
 Volume: 2800m3
 Passengers High/Med: 0/5
 Cost: 38.012 MCr
 Mass (L/C): 3215t/1600t
 Passengers Low: 0
 Maintenance Points: 65
 Dimensions: 48.3m x 12.1m x 4.9m
 Troops/Science: 0/0
 Tech Level: 11
 Size: 8
 Frozen Watch: 0

Electronics
 Controls: Dynamic, High automation. 3xComp (CM:1.0 CP:1.0). No
           bridge.
 Communications: 1xRadio (50,000km, 0.02MW). 1xLaser (1,000AU,
                 0MW).
 Sensors: 1xPEMS (12.5 [1.6mkm], 0MW). 1xAEMS (11 [0.16mkm],
          0.5MW).
 Survey/Science:
 ECM:
 Signatures: Vis:-0.5, IR:0 (0 at 112MW,  0 at 12MW), Act:0.5, Neu:0, 
             Grav:0

Weaponry
 1xLight Laser Turret (+0) 1/1-0-0-0 [3,50/7-3-2-1] (LR)

Performance
 1 Jump (20std/pc fuel)
 0.9/1.8 Maneuver (Thruster: 70MW)
 0.9/1.8 Contra-grav (39MW)
 1711kph/3263kph Atmosphere (Criuse:1283kph/2447kph)
 1 Power (Fission: 118MW, 1year)
 0 Battery
 20 Fuel (Scoop: 3 Purif: 8, 1MW)
 0/5/5/0/0 Accomodations
 130 Life Sup (Type: Extended, Normal food [stored])
 1 G-Comp
 0 ESA
 0 Sandcasters
 0 Damper Turrets
 0 Damper Screen
 0 Meson Screen
 0 Force Field
 0 Gravtics
 0 [20] Armor, 6 Structure

Features
 2 x Decontamination Airlock
 1 x Ship's locker (0.1std ea.)
 1 x Ordinary Galley (Cap: 10)			

Small Craft

Backups
 Drives:
 Screens:
 Communications:
 Sensors:
 Survey/Science:
 ECM:
 Power & Fuel:

Crew Details
 1 x Pilot
 1 x Astrogator
 1 x Engineer
 1 x Gunner
 1 x Medical

One of the most enduring designs to come out of the Interstellar Wars,
the Tracy class were a general purpose tramp freighter serving the
many colonies of the Terran Confederation. The design outlasted the
Confederation by a considerable margin, examples of the class were
being constructed in the Solomani Rim well into the Long Night. The
class contains most of the features that distingushed Terran merchant
ships of this period. The most noticable is the single large cargo
dual story cargo bay with its massive 12m x 5m cargo ramp. Other
features common to most Terran merchants were: the single 2 ton turret
mounting a triple 14.5Mj laser (this was the most common armarment
used on Terran merchants during the Interstellar Wars). The closed
loop extended life support system, giving the ship unlimited duration
excluding food. The use of a small fission reactor instead of the
large fusion reactors found in Vilani designs.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/abuse/abuse.htm (child abuse site)
****************************************************************************
"Worst thing about being a multiple is filling out the name tags"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 22:41:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

In mail you write:

> 100 diameters from a neutron star or a black hole could be entertaining
> :-)

I believe the word you intended was "fatal".

> There are quite a lot of neutron stars (pulsars) about. 
>
> Sticking to a 100 diameter limit (1 percent gravity gradient) no matter
> what the gravitational field intensity has always been dubious IMO. I
> assume the intention was to simplify for ease of game play. This works
> reasonably well for planets, though the variance is large. For stars
> though the distance should be much further, say 500 Diameters.
>
> Diameters for same gravitational field intensity (Earth =100):
>
> Mercury        61
> Venus          96
> Mars            62
> Jupiter        160
> Saturn        103
> Uranus         95
> Neptune     105
> Pluto           27
> Sun           530 (nearly to the orbit of Jupiter)

Only trouble is that the distance at which the gravitational
acceleration matches that 100 diameters from earth is nowhere *near*
100 diameters for other sized *normal* planets.

Since Traveller assumes that all non-gas giants have the same density,
then the 100 diameter rule can easily be shown to correlate with the
*mass* of the planet (thru an inverse cube law). This is the same sort
of rule that applies to tidal forces, or in other words to the *rate of
change* of gravity. 

BTW, this means that for objects *denser* than earth, the "100
diameter" limit is actually *farther* out, while for object less dense
(typical GG, typical stars) it's closer in. And of course for the
ridiculously dense object like white dwarfs, neutron stars, and black
holes, it's *way* out there. 

This is nice, because it lets you survive a jump that comes out near
such a body. At least for a bit.  Heck, come out near an old black hole
or neutron star (one that doesn't have an accretion disk anymore) and
it'll take quite a while to *find* the object that popped you out of
jump. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 22:59:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

In mail you write:

> The other thing that has always bothered me about the "100 diameters
> from...Earth" is that a fleet could appear from out of nowhere right on the
> planet's doorstep. A fleet jumping in a hundred diameters from Earth would
> be able to launch an attack before a credible defense could be mounted.
> This is a *bad* thing for gameplay, IMO, and in one of my games will not
> routinely happen.  Ship's jumping in should have to spend several hours
> travelling from the jump point to their destination, and IMTU 100 d from a
> planet won't do it.

100 diameters from earth is well beyond the moon. 6400 km *200 =
1,280,000 km. Mean Earth-moon distance is only 400,000 km. 

At 4.3 light seconds, there's time to get your defenses doing things. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 23:58:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starflight and Traveller

In mail you write:

> I have tried both AT-SLOW and ICD/ICE.  Neither of them will work on my P100.
> Any ideas on how to slow down a Pentium?

Load Windows 95?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 00:46:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Searching the archives...

In mail you write:

> I ran across the following in a 1993 TML post and couldn't resist
> resurrecting it as it reminded me of one Traveller campaign I gamed
> in a long, long time ago. (My compliments and respect to E.E."Doc"
> Smith and the creators of the Space Opera game.)

Please note that the song likely predates the game by quite a bit.

> _Our Space Opera Goes Rolling Along_ (to the tune of the Caisson Song)

<mega-snip>

Here's another, also by Jeff Dunteman. 

The Outer Space Marines (to the tune of The Marine Hymn)

From the pits of Aldebaran IX
To the webs of Sigma Grex;
We will make a better man of you
Irregardless of your sex.
Though the Klingons kick sand in your face,
You will know you're worth your beans
When you come and sell your soul to us
In the Outer Space Marines.

When the drill instructor calls, "LEFT FACE!"
Better hear those eyebals click!
If you have three faces, never mind,
Toss a coin and take your pick.
When you're shipped out you'll see lots of space
And some mighty strange latrines.
And you'll cuss the day you ever heard
Of the Outer Space Marines.

If you've two legs, four legs, six or eight,
Seventeen, or none at all,
When the troop ship dumps you to your fate,
You will hit the mud and crawl.
Whether Earthman, Kklup, or Zapphotuul,
When the buzz-beam's burning red,
There is just one universal rule:
Guard your ass and duck your head!
- ----- ---- --- --- ---- ---- ----

Spoken (drill sgt):
		All right now, Forrr-waad!
		                     ----
<pause>		Hup-2, -3, -4, -5, -6, -hold it!

<pause>		Hup-2-3-many, Stop!
                ---
<pause>		Wait a minute, um, ... evens, odds, evens, odds, no!
                                                                 ---
<pause>		Hop-skip-jump... halt!
                                 -----
<pause>		Left-center-right, left-center-right...


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 23:59:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: (long term feul consumption)

In mail you write:

> Interstellar travel with jump is possible now. Where's Pioneer gonna
> be in a couple hundred years?

Still closer to Sol than anything else. To the best of my knowledge
the fastest *any* of the probes leaving the solar system is under 200
km/sec. At that rate, it takes almost 9 days to cover an AU. And since
a parsec is slightly over 200,000 AU... I get about 4800 years to cover
a parsec.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 00:16:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)

In mail you write:

> Yes your right, but you are only considering diameter. i always
> thought GDW was wrong comparing density of a star and a terrestrial
> planet. i always take the gravity of earth at 100 EARThDIAMETER as
> the _GRAVITY_ JUMPZONE LIMIT transfer this gravity to our star it is
> more than 4 AUs!

You are essentially using r=100*sqrt(m) where m is in earth masses and
r is in earth diameters.

But try that with typical Traveller planets (size 1 thru A), which are
assumed to have the same density as Earth. Their masses are therefore
the cube of their diameter.
                                           
size	dia	mass	100*dia	100sqrt(m)	100cubrt(m)	
- ----	-----	-------	-------	----------	--------------
1	0.125	0.00195	 12.5	  4.42		 12.5
2	0.250	0.01563	 25.0	 12.50		 25.0
3	0.375	0.05257	 37.5	 22.96		 37.5
4	0.500	0.12500	 50.0	 35.36		 50.0
5	0.625	0.24414	 62.5	 49.41		 62.5
6	0.750	0.42188	 75.0	 64.95		 75.0
7	0.875	0.66992	 87.5	 81.85		 87.5
8	1.000	1.00000	100.0	100.00		100.0
9	1.125	1.42383	112.5	119.32		112.5
A	1.250	1.95313	125.0	139.75		125.0

Note that 100 times the *cube* root of the mass gives *exactly* the
figures used in Traveller. And *tidal forces* follow that sort of cubic
law. Since they are the rate at which the force of gravity changes,
that means that rather than how *deep* in a gravity well you are, jump
drive depends on the *slope* of the well. In other words, how "curved"
space is. It works better in "flatter" space. 

BTW, another argument would be that we are likely *way* inside the
galaxy's "100 diameter limit" calculated your way. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 00:04:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Near C objects (was Ongoing discussion on Gurps: Traveller and others)

In mail you write:

> In reference to suspected inexhaustible GURPS power plants I said:
>
> "I bet if you did 6Gs for a couple of years, probably less, you could
> travel a parsec (ship time - relativistic effects set in after a few
> months at 6G) ."
>
> Even with standard traveller drives & fuel requirements you could get up
> to one hell of a velocity before you ran out of fuel. This would make an
> awesome weapon (unstoppable?).
>
>>...there could be a zillion asteroids with Military Ultrablack hulls
>> on highly eccentric orbits currently all piled up around the south 
>> celestial pole 20 AU out - but it's unlikely.
>
> Say you clad a small icy asteroid in a military ultrablack hull, stuck a
> large power plant and drive on it and set it off at half a G towards a
> neighboring system. It would take a few years to get there and would be
> going over 50% of  light speed when it got there. It makes final
> maneuver adjustments and cuts all power while several hours from the
> target world. It is now virtually impossible to detect. A quicker method
> is to jump to the target systems oort cloud and fit a high G booster to
> a comet. Then it only takes a few months.

Trouble is, your original aim has to be *very* close, as you can't make
*large* course corrections at those velocities.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 07:40:47 -0400
From: "Alan M. Nuss" <amnuss@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product

I will definitely buy one.  Maybe two if it will help you get it
published.

Alan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 08:08:01 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: (long term feul consumption)

 
> > Interstellar travel with jump is possible now. Where's Pioneer gonna
> > be in a couple hundred years?
> 
> Still closer to Sol than anything else. To the best of my knowledge
> the fastest *any* of the probes leaving the solar system is under 200
> km/sec. At that rate, it takes almost 9 days to cover an AU. And since
> a parsec is slightly over 200,000 AU... I get about 4800 years to cover
> a parsec.
 
OK, so 1200 years, close enough. The bottom line is that it'll get
there :-)

My point was just that a lot of this discussion seemed to sound like
it would be a seed change in the traveller canon to have sublight
interstellar travel. I don't know about about you, but my characters
didn't wanna roleplay 1200 years in a low berth :-)

I would expect lower TL cultures to do this (unless they had already
made contact), but everybody else whould just by jump drives from
the trade mission that would appear at some point.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 10:53:15 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Starflight and Traveller

already tried that as well, didn't slow it down enough.


Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
>
> > I have tried both AT-SLOW and ICD/ICE.  Neither of them will work on my P100.
> > Any ideas on how to slow down a Pentium?
>
> Load Windows 95?
>
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort



- --
Robert the Lonely

Http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/4467

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 09:59:53 -0600
From: "Eric T. or Maryann C. Holmes" <holmberg@thuntek.net>
Subject: Re: "Letter of Marque"  Classic traveller Product Traveller-digest V1998 #512

Paul Sanders:

I am interested in getting a copy.  Just say when!

Eric Holmes
holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov
holmberg@thuntek.net

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #514
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 23 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 515



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Misjumps?
Misjumps
re: Speaking of Sensors! (long and pedantic)
Re: Misjumps?
Re: Er... (Thursters and Fusion Plants)
Re: Misjumps?
Re: Escort tonnage
Re: Speaking of Sensors! (long and pedantic)
Re: Inside a firing spinal mount 
[T98#508] Aliens (was: Starflight & Traveller)
Re: Piracy
Re: [T98#508] Aliens (was: Starflight & Traveller)
Re: Misjumps?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 09:12:08 -0700
From: Richard Hough <richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com>
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

>I've been thinking more about misjumps.  The next time I run Traveller it
>occurred to me that since I don't much like the idea of misjumps into
>empty space I might institute a rule where ships can *only* exit 100
>diameters from some large body (say a planet, sun, or a moon at least
>several 100 km in diameter).

[snip]

>So, am I missing anything?  Can anyone see any seriously problematic
>consequences with instituting this rule?

There are a few more consequences in addition to the ones Michael Croft
mentioned:

6. Several adventures, including Twilight's Peak and The Traveller
Adventure, require ships to jump to empty hexes for the plot.

7. It makes deep space practically inaccessable, barring multi-decade trips
by HEPlaR. This rules out some interesting settings and plots.

8. Calibration points and deep space refuelling stations become near
impossible.

9. By inducing misjumps, one can now get up to jump 36 safely with no extra
fuel. Even though you can't choose the destination; trade, exploration, and
news will travel orders of magnitude faster. It will, at least, obsolete
the Xboat network. Mains become irrelevant, too. Moreover, rifts or sectors
where there are only a few systems will become veritable highways since you
have a high chance of predicting where you'll misjump to.
- --
Richard Hough
richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 12:45:07 -0400
From: Andy Slack <AndySlack@compuserve.com>
Subject: Misjumps

Message text written by Jo Grant:
>My assumption is that the calculations for jump transitions are heniously
complex and take forever to calculate. They allow, in theory, the ability
to travel from any point in space to any other point in space in zero time
(macro quantum jumps). Unfortunately, you usually have to be a point mass
to do so. However, some bright spark came up with an approximation formula
which is much easier to calculate. The price you pay, though, is
uncertainty (6-8 day jump time), risk (chance of misjump), and entry/exit
limitations (100 diameter rule). The reason for the latter is that it is
easier to approximate your trajectory an rely on hitting the curved-space
wall to precipitate you out that to plot an exact course and fall out
naturally.<

IIRC old-time sailing ships knew they would mess up their navigation on the
way across the Atlantic, so they deliberately aimed off to one side. At
least
that way they knew whether to turn left or right when they got to the next
coastline. Sounds kind of similar...

(I like Cherryh's jump mechanisms too, and the little bit of colour -
navigators being (a) weird and (b) having the Jump equation tattooed
around their wrists...)

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 11:21:19 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Speaking of Sensors! (long and pedantic)

(This might be better off on Trav-tech)

>> about  10^7 - 10^8 stars in it. It'll fit in memory on a high-end computer.
>Actually, I think it works out to several gigs, I'd probably want about a
>hundred bytes to account for the various false positives you will get for
>things like variable brightness stars.     
How many bytes does it take to record the fact that a star is variable and
flag the maximum and minimum brightness? Maybe 6 per star.

>> The sensor computer needs to identify every one of those stars every hour
>> or so and compare each object it's detected to that list - maybe ten
>> operations per star to measure its position and twenty to do a comparison
>> to the indexed list and decide if it needs to be flagged as discrepant =>
>> 10^9 operations per hour, which is *easy* for current computer technology.
>Actually, the computer effort for doing the index and compare is probably off
>by an order of magnitude (a binary search on 10^8 objects is 27 comparisons,
>and is probably at least 10 operations per compare), but that's not the real
>problem, 
It's an indexed database - you're not doing a binary search initially. (But,
as you say, that's a small factor.) 

>simply generating a 10 milliradian map (enough to detect objects in
>the asteroid belt by their motion) is at least 10^12 operations (and requires
>about that much memory if you want to save it all); 10 milliradians isn't
>crucial, but get above 100 milliradians and you're going to predictably lose
>objects against stars.  Still, if computers are sufficiently godly it can still
>be done.  
Did you really mean 10 milliradians? That's only 10^-4 steradians per pixel
or 10^5 operations for the whole sky. (And, for the uninitiated, 10 milliradians
is about half a degree per pixel.)

Perhaps you meant ten microradians (about two arcseconds per pixel), which
gives you 10^11 pixels around the whole sky. That's finer than you need - you
can measure the position of an object to a tenth or a hundredth of a pixel.
Processing 10^11 pixels per half-hour isn't terribly hard; a high-end adaptive
optics wavefront sensor runs 128x128 pixels at 2 kHz, which is 6x10^10 pixels,
and continuously centroids the equivalent of about a thousand stars per frame
(actually just a thousand images of the same star), or 4x10^9 stars per
half hour - less than our starship sensor needs.

Note that you don't record the whole few x 10^11 bytes of image data every
half hour - as each image comes in you just find the point sources in it and
record them.

To do a specific example: my numbers (for a standard-black scout, vis sig=-1) 
give it a visual magnitude of 15 at about 500,000 km (range 11.) Reliably
detecting it will take a scanner-13. At TL-8 that is 4m2 of area and MCr 16.
One could use that area for 16 half-meter telescopes (12 for overall scanning
and four for follow-up, so each telescope has to cover a steradian every half
hour.) Each gets a 4096x4096 pixel imager with a field of view about 6 degrees
on a side (5 arcseconds per pixel) and hence has to take a picture every twenty
seconds. A ten-second exposure easily reaches 15th magnitude with plenty of 
signal to noise (leaving ten seconds to slew over 6 degrees and take the next
picture while the CCD is reading out.) You then have twenty seconds to process
each image, which requires bias-subtracting it (16x10^6 operations),
thresholding to pick out the stars (a compare at every pixel, about 32x10^6
operations or so). Each frame will have around 10^5 stars in it - looking these
up and comparing these to the catalog will take at most 10^7 operations. We
have 5x10^7 operations per second in ten seconds. Allowing generous overheads -
you probably want two CCDs per telescope, for example, to measure colors and
rule out cosmic ray hits - one needs a few times 10^7 operations per second -
certainly within the reach of modern civilian computers; you'd probably do it 
with a few digital signal processors per channel.

>Of course, in addition to that you have to update your wandering
>objects map (quite a lot of operations) and of course you want to separately
>scan for transient events.  Still, detecting objects out to AVM +15 doesn't
>bother me that much...but you make it reasonable to detect objects out to AVM
>+25, which is easily another 5 orders of magnitude in effort.    

The best you can do at TL-8 is a scanner-14, which sees to about 20th
magnitude - and costs MCr 1600, which buys you a *lot* of computers and glass.
The systems that are seeing down to 25th magnitude don't come along until TL10,
at which point it's reasonable to assume they're getting much more sopisticated
(for example, the sensor is no longer a telescope with moving parts but a 
interferometric solid-state array.) The really big sensors also have several
tens billions of credits of computer equipment associated with them.
(I'm not sure if you have a copy of FFS2 - if not, you might have been mislead
slightly by the FFS1 conversion rules in the DSR; FFS2 sensors are bulkier and
very expensive, to leave room for lots of computers.)

One minor footnote is that most targets are detected in the IR, where they're
proportionally much brighter; a scanner-13's easy detection threshold is around
a K magnitude of 12. 

Useful footnote for people who've slogged this far: TL-12+ ships (since their
radiators run at 2000K) are actually typically slightly brighter due to radiator
glow than reflected sunlight - you can see the red glow from the radiators of
a sig-0 target with your naked eye at about 8000 km.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 98 13:42:34 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

On 05/22/98 at 10:59 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>100 diameters from earth is well beyond the moon. 6400 km *200 =
>1,280,000 km. Mean Earth-moon distance is only 400,000 km. 

I know that Leonard.

>At 4.3 light seconds, there's time to get your defenses doing things. 

That depends on the weapon ranges, how fast the attackers can close on the
planet, and where the defenders are in the game you're playing. As I
continue to say, IMTU.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 13:22:34 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Er... (Thursters and Fusion Plants)

Fri, 22 May 1998 03:43:32 -0700 (PDT), "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
>Also, thruster plates are better than a Bussard Ramjet, but they aren't
>incredibly better than one, especially since they have the 2,000 AU cut
>off, so they're not changing the universe *that* much,

Actually, I've heard it claimed that the Bussard Ramjet won't work.
The drag from collecting the hydrogen exeeds the thrust it gives.
However, I don't know how true this is.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 13:18:16 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

Regarding all jumps leaving you at the 100 diameter limit...
It also means that misjumps are nothing more than a chance
to get plopped down at the wrong system....



____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 13:36:42 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage

[To clear up a few loose ends.  I'm not going to reiterate the
piracy thread again...]
Fri, 22 May 1998 14:26:40 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
[Stuff that has been covered deleted...]
>>This assumes pirate "hang around" rather than just take targets of
>>opportunity as they pass through.

>Once again you ignore the _fact_ that a civilian ship that is conducting
>legitimate business while waiting for a target of opportunity has to do
>so in its proper identity or at the very least runs a grave risk of
>leaving behind abundant clues to its identity (which makes for interesting
>problems once they have committed a crime) while a civilian ship that isn't
>conducting legitimate business is 1) losing money and 2) exibiting suspicious
>behavior.

Well, the fact that you need a _proper_ identity and you can't
have fake ones (or it is too dangerous to do so) is an assumption,
regardless of wether transponders can be tampered with (which is
debatable in itself).  Even if that were true, there are ways of
getting a "proper transponder" with a fake identity.  It also
should be riterated that it isn't clear that transponders will
be checked at every system (some people seem to assume that
every system in the Imperium is like O'Hare airport when I see
many systems being a lot more like a dirt refueling strip like
those used in WWII as being more Traveller like.  It seems
to me in the tendency to make everything work like our western
society, we are loosing the entire laisse faire feelig of the
setting).

Also, the assumption is that you are either conducting legitimate
business or not.  The non-piracy business could range from legitamite
trading to smuggling (to both at once).

>I haven't seen FF&S2 and I don't have the technical knowledge to judge,
>but am I right in assuming that that means realistic, real-world sensors?

Depends on who you ask.  It doesn't mean what we can do today
and any extrapolation is a guess.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 14:47:27 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Sensors! (long and pedantic)

 
>or10^5 operations for the whole sky. (And, for the uninitiated, 10 milliradians
> is about half a degree per pixel.)
 
And for the really uninitiated a half a degree is about what the
moon is on the sky (or the sun for that matter :-)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 17:26:53 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Inside a firing spinal mount 

> On 05/19/98 at 08:49 PM,  TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com> said:
> 
> >What would happen if someone was in the tunnel of a spinal mount that was
> >firing?  I'm picturing whoever's inside will be killed, but should there
> >be a chance of a "backfire" or something?
> 
> Slightly different question...the magnetic fieldsgenerated by a multi-GW
> spinal should have most unpleasent effects on (a) anybody even *near* the
> tunnel and (b) on electronics all over the ship, should it?

They'd probably shield it pretty good.  A Faraday cage is easy enough to design.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 22:16:37 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T98#508] Aliens (was: Starflight & Traveller)

On Thu, 21 May 1998 20:45:17 -0400, "Keven R. Pittsinger"
<jamstar@glasscity.net> wrote:

>> Some more interesting possibilities, IMO:
>> 
>> The Sime/Gen symbiosis, from the series by Jaqueline Lichtenberg
>> and Jean Lorrah, set on a post-apocalyptic Earth [the "Zeor"
>> books]. (Minor Human Race [MHR])

>Geneered off in the corner someplace, of course.  Would they be still 
>genetically compatible with the rest of humaniti?

No, but that shouldn't be an issue - consider the Geonee, who I
believe are also not genetically compatible with the rest of
humaniti.  And absolutely they're geneered; I never for a minute
considered otherwise.

>> The humanoid aliens of Star Trek, most notably the Vulcans and
>> Romulans as written up by Diane Duane (_The_Romulan_Way_ and
>> _Spock's_World_), and the Klingons as written up by John M. Ford
>> (_The_Final_Reflection_).  Note that Ford's Klingons are TOS, not
>> TNG. (MHR/MHR/MHR)

>Eh.  Lose the Rommies & the Vulcans, but keep Ford's Klingons.  <grin>

Actually, Duane really makes them come to life - you get to see
that they are real societies, not one-dimensional caricatures -
and you get to see how the "flat" stereotyping/characterizations
fit into that society - and how it doesn't.  Fascinating, to
steal a phrase.  No need to make them green in Traveller, though;
they're perfectly adequate as full-humans.

>> The Kzinti from Niven's Known Space. (MAs)

>The *REAL* Aslan, IMNSFBHO.  Great stuff.  

Good stuff, yes - but the Aslan as portrayed in AM1 and S&A are
the "real thing" by definition.  The main problem with the
Kzinti, and probably what relegates them to minor status as
contrasted with the mainstream Aslan, is that they are _too_
prone to reacting emotionally, especially in military offensives
and retaliation.  I could see them serving as Aslan Marines or
equivalent; I don't see them rising beyond that.  Also, remember
that if they _are_ similar to the Aslan, they have another
handicap - no females to manage them (Kzinti females were
sub-sentient).

>> The Puppeteers from Niven's Known Space. (Minor Alien [MAl])

>I wouldn't call them a *minor* race, though.  The Puppeteers pretty much tried 
>running things behind the scenes.  They'd be a *worthy* adversary for the 
>Hiver Shadow Nests, though...

Minor in the sense that they are not widely known, and don't have
any sort of major interstellar state.  Perhaps they're students
of the Hivers, working in areas away from Human Space; perhaps
they're the power behind the Hivers, and the Hivers are really
just fronting for them.  

>Don't forget the Ullers.  Silicate-based, cold-blooded, with 2 major rifts in 
>the culture:  the 'tamed' wogs & the nomads.

I'm not convinced of the biology.

>Ever read R. M. Meluch's 'Sovereign'?  Check it out sometime.  Same with a 
>*LOT* of Poul Anderson's alien cultures in his Trader series.  Andy Slack even 
>wrote up the Staurni as an NPC race.

One of these centuries, in my copious spare time... <sigh>.

>> At its height, the Third Imperium encompassed 11,000 worlds.
>> That guarantees that you can legitimately create 11,000 unique
>> societies, and the number is probably closer to 1.1 million, or
>> maybe 11 million.  But 11 million societies full of humans in
>> rubber suits is just plain BORING.

>Exactly.  But there's plenty of room for everything in there.

Well, yes and no - there's plenty of room, but just anything
won't do, at least in my book.  Traveller tends to have a
"harder" SF feel than other, popular SF publications such as Star
Wars, Star Trek, et alia.  That to me means that you've got to
work harder to ensure a "realistic" feel to anything you create.
This was, in fact, my biggest problem with the Hivers and the
Ithklur - although they felt "better" than Niven's Kdatlyno or
Outsiders or even the Hhkar from Traveller, it still felt like
the writers were straining to make them work - they were marginal
at best.  The aliens I selected above were the ones that really
seemed like they could really exist.  I'd rather have seen any of
them instead of the sentient trees, the Asym, the Gratch
(man-headed spiders), or the worm-colony things, in Aliens
Archive.

Incidentally, for those of you who read Harry Turtledove's stuff,
add The Race (the Lizards) from the Worldwar series to the list.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 18:45:55
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Piracy

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Piracy
>
>[OK, my goal here is to show that the piracy debate hinges on
>a number of assumptions, and each person's answer to the question
>depends on how they see those assumptions.  I think I've shown
>that and I don't want to get into debating which way
>those assumptions should go.  (anyone who was here for the
>last debate will know why. :-)]

Yes. And it's my assertion that the assumptions that make piracy possible
do not hold within or near a stable Imperium. Outside, especially in the
Vargr Extents, sure. During the Civil Wars, the Collapse or the Long Night,
no problem. But during in 95% of Imperial territory during 95% of Imperial
history, no way.

>
>Well, the premise of the case was that there was not fleet
>present.  Additionally idea that the Imperium patrols each and
>every system is an assumption based on what degree they will
>go to prevent each and every incidence of piracy and also on
>the question of how many ships it would take to patrol a
>system and what, if any, costs should be associated with
>those patrols.
>

Part of why I think the Imperium will take a very hard line against piracy
is that the Imperium rules the space between the stars, and thus piracy is
a crime against the State.

>That assumes that piracy occurs by ships dedicated to the task
>operating out of havens.
>

But ships that can pretend to be innocent civilians will by definition have
civilian maneuver drives, civilian sensors and civilian weaponary, making
their use in combat against other civilian ships a very chancy thing. Hell,
steal your own ship instead - it's much safer, you already have at least
one key crew member on side, and it's worth enough for you to retire on.

>>>> >Case 2: Piracy on worlds with an imperial starport and SDBs.
>>>
>Well, this assumes that sensors are unable to distinguish armed
>and unarmed ships and that all unarmed ships have at least turrets
>installed to look armed (which is contrary to canon).  It also
>assumes that pirate never attack ships that are simply smaller
>and so less armed.  It also assumes
>that you can't fake or alter a ship ID.
>

Lets see. A Sens 13.5 passive sensor has a resolution at 50 000 km of 2
meters. I'd say that 50 kkm is well inside combat range (a 13.9m diameter 1
gee ship will get hit all the time at out to 100 000km - it doesnt have
enough maneuverability to dodge during light-lag at that distance). I'd say
therefore you can probably pick a 3m diameter turret at those ranges, but
you cant tell what it's armed with.

Smaller ships can be very nasty if they are properly armed - a 600 mJ
spinal mount laser easily fits in a 200 dt trader, and this can be bad if
you are expecting only 250mJ or worse popguns. Military grade missiles (det
laser warheads, integral LIDAR, PEMS jammer bundles etc) are also a very
rapid force multiplier.

>>Raiding ships jumping out has the problem of them taking their chances with
>>a jump inside the hundred diameter limit, rather than with the ethically
>>challenged civilian.
>
>The assumes both that the only way to get away from a patrol is
>to jump early.  It also assumes that the patrol is present (see
>above).

I was more thinking of the target jumping away from the raider, not the
raider jumping away from the Space Patrol. Raiders jumping away may also
have the problem of the Space Patrol putting out an APB - if the raider
gets unlucky and gets an 8 day jump where the APB arrives in 7.5 days, then
the raider may be faced with an uncomfortable welcome.

>
>>Concentrating on poorly guarded systems has the problem of information lag
>>- - what systems are poorly guarded right now, assuming that the Subsector
>>Fleet shuffles it's assets.
>
>This assumes that if you find a system patrolled, you can't simply
>not attack anything.

Patrolled by what ? Will half a dozen 20 ton fighters intimidate our
ethically-challenged civilian enough ? What is the minimum investment that
will intimidate ethically-challenged civilians into acting honest ?

>
>Convoy are probably effective.  They do, however, assume a willingness
>to bear the cost of such convoys in order to stamp out every last
>incidence of piracy.

If piracy is rare, the Navy may will get excited if there is an incident -
gives some Admiral a chance to give his blue-eyed girl some experience of
command under fire, co-ordinating a multi-system action etc.

In any case, a once-a-day convoy will delay you, on average, by 12 hours.
And it's easy to enforce - the starport just doesnt let you leave.

>
>> The other strategy could be building traders with
>>sub-craft - fighters where security is an issue, cargo launches where it
>>isnt.
>
>Again, this assumes a willingness to bear the costs.

What costs ? You need a launch anyway, and if you decide you dont, you just
build a cargo shell of the same size as your fighter, and pack it full of
freight.

>This only extends the time between finding targets.  It is only
>a problem if you assume the piracy is their sole source of income.

There are also potentially major up-front costs to being a pirate, namely
the issue of finding someone reliable you fence the goods through (if any
s.o.b. can find out, then so can the cops, whoever they are). Catching
pirates through the back door is as effective as duking it out with them in
deep space.

>
>>>What is the endurance of a missle?  I've never heard that it is hours...
>
>>Build em with t-plates and either batteries or TAKAFP at TL12
>
>They don't exist in the background.  Lots of assumptions about
>reusability, costs, ease of counter fire, etc.

Assumption is cost is in the couple of megacredits range (probably about
four), reusability is 'yes', because you can just tell em to come back if
they dont detonate, counterfire is certainly possible, but while the
ethically challenged civilian is shooting at them they are buying the
target time to escape. Shooting up 12 gee missiles is also tough, if you
dont have a weapons suite designed for it. It's even worse if they have 50
000km long range det laser warheads (12 gees at 50 kkm means a zone of
uncertainty of 40 meters ... a lot bigger than most missiles. Personally, I
think you either need nuke dampers putting out big nodes, or properly
designed counter-missile missiles to stop these things).

Canon never was that precise on exactly what things were. In the same way
canon sources never really went into fun military toys before FFS1, we
could assume that t-plate missiles were the extra High Guard +1 factor you
got at TL13 or something. The cheap civilian ones in book 2 can be assumed
to be the Traveller equivalent of Saturday Night Specials.

>>How will Traffic Control and the target ship react to this ?
>
>Well, you can assume that it happens all the time and they
>won't react at all, or you can assume they will react to
>anything the might smack of piracy be delaying ships from
>when they want to leave.

I'd say as soon as a ship gets jumped by a tailgater once, you are goanna
have a board of inquiry at the starport, some poor SOB is goanna get
cashiered, and every starport traffic controller is going to make sure
ships stay well away from each other.

Anyway, you dont have to delay the other traffic - just plot them a
different vector. Space is big.

OK. Lets try and drag this debate, kicking and screaming, into something
directly useful for a Traveller campaign.

David, lets pick a part of space where we both agree piracy could happen,
in or around the early 1100s. I'd say Spinward Marches subsector E is it -
Querion. The Federation of Arden is next door, complete with a class B
starport at Quare/0915. There is a class B unaligned starport on
Thanber/0717, and (most importantly) there are political limits on IN
reactions, due to the Zhodhani just next door. You have a potential market
for stolen Imperial goods in the Sword Worlds - Entrope is close, and I
doubt the recipients of Imperial Occupation will ask too many questions
about the lack of paperwork with a slightly-damaged Far Trader.

OK. As a potential pirate, how do we operate. What sort of ship, what sort
of routes, etc. I want to do a 'how to' manual for a pirate in the Spinward
Marches.

Once we get that, we can look at countermeasures. The plan is to get a
frameowrk together that a set of adventures can be based on.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 19:39:54 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: [T98#508] Aliens (was: Starflight & Traveller)

speaking of aliens, have any of you created a race like the Greys?


Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

> On Thu, 21 May 1998 20:45:17 -0400, "Keven R. Pittsinger"
> <jamstar@glasscity.net> wrote:
>
> >> Some more interesting possibilities, IMO:
> >>
> >> The Sime/Gen symbiosis, from the series by Jaqueline Lichtenberg
> >> and Jean Lorrah, set on a post-apocalyptic Earth [the "Zeor"
> >> books]. (Minor Human Race [MHR])
>
> >Geneered off in the corner someplace, of course.  Would they be still
> >genetically compatible with the rest of humaniti?
>
> No, but that shouldn't be an issue - consider the Geonee, who I
> believe are also not genetically compatible with the rest of
> humaniti.  And absolutely they're geneered; I never for a minute
> considered otherwise.
>
> >> The humanoid aliens of Star Trek, most notably the Vulcans and
> >> Romulans as written up by Diane Duane (_The_Romulan_Way_ and
> >> _Spock's_World_), and the Klingons as written up by John M. Ford
> >> (_The_Final_Reflection_).  Note that Ford's Klingons are TOS, not
> >> TNG. (MHR/MHR/MHR)
>
> >Eh.  Lose the Rommies & the Vulcans, but keep Ford's Klingons.  <grin>
>
> Actually, Duane really makes them come to life - you get to see
> that they are real societies, not one-dimensional caricatures -
> and you get to see how the "flat" stereotyping/characterizations
> fit into that society - and how it doesn't.  Fascinating, to
> steal a phrase.  No need to make them green in Traveller, though;
> they're perfectly adequate as full-humans.
>
> >> The Kzinti from Niven's Known Space. (MAs)
>
> >The *REAL* Aslan, IMNSFBHO.  Great stuff.
>
> Good stuff, yes - but the Aslan as portrayed in AM1 and S&A are
> the "real thing" by definition.  The main problem with the
> Kzinti, and probably what relegates them to minor status as
> contrasted with the mainstream Aslan, is that they are _too_
> prone to reacting emotionally, especially in military offensives
> and retaliation.  I could see them serving as Aslan Marines or
> equivalent; I don't see them rising beyond that.  Also, remember
> that if they _are_ similar to the Aslan, they have another
> handicap - no females to manage them (Kzinti females were
> sub-sentient).
>
> >> The Puppeteers from Niven's Known Space. (Minor Alien [MAl])
>
> >I wouldn't call them a *minor* race, though.  The Puppeteers pretty much tried
> >running things behind the scenes.  They'd be a *worthy* adversary for the
> >Hiver Shadow Nests, though...
>
> Minor in the sense that they are not widely known, and don't have
> any sort of major interstellar state.  Perhaps they're students
> of the Hivers, working in areas away from Human Space; perhaps
> they're the power behind the Hivers, and the Hivers are really
> just fronting for them.
>
> >Don't forget the Ullers.  Silicate-based, cold-blooded, with 2 major rifts in
> >the culture:  the 'tamed' wogs & the nomads.
>
> I'm not convinced of the biology.
>
> >Ever read R. M. Meluch's 'Sovereign'?  Check it out sometime.  Same with a
> >*LOT* of Poul Anderson's alien cultures in his Trader series.  Andy Slack even
> >wrote up the Staurni as an NPC race.
>
> One of these centuries, in my copious spare time... <sigh>.
>
> >> At its height, the Third Imperium encompassed 11,000 worlds.
> >> That guarantees that you can legitimately create 11,000 unique
> >> societies, and the number is probably closer to 1.1 million, or
> >> maybe 11 million.  But 11 million societies full of humans in
> >> rubber suits is just plain BORING.
>
> >Exactly.  But there's plenty of room for everything in there.
>
> Well, yes and no - there's plenty of room, but just anything
> won't do, at least in my book.  Traveller tends to have a
> "harder" SF feel than other, popular SF publications such as Star
> Wars, Star Trek, et alia.  That to me means that you've got to
> work harder to ensure a "realistic" feel to anything you create.
> This was, in fact, my biggest problem with the Hivers and the
> Ithklur - although they felt "better" than Niven's Kdatlyno or
> Outsiders or even the Hhkar from Traveller, it still felt like
> the writers were straining to make them work - they were marginal
> at best.  The aliens I selected above were the ones that really
> seemed like they could really exist.  I'd rather have seen any of
> them instead of the sentient trees, the Asym, the Gratch
> (man-headed spiders), or the worm-colony things, in Aliens
> Archive.
>
> Incidentally, for those of you who read Harry Turtledove's stuff,
> add The Race (the Lizards) from the Worldwar series to the list.
>
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin
> jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com



- --
Robert the Lonely

Http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/4467

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 17:55:11 +0000
From: edjs@mindlink.net
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

> From:          shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Date:          Fri, 22 May 1998 22:59:15 PST
> 
> 100 diameters from earth is well beyond the moon. 6400 km *200 =
> 1,280,000 km. Mean Earth-moon distance is only 400,000 km. 
> 
> At 4.3 light seconds, there's time to get your defenses doing things. 

   What are the weapon ranges like in T4?  In TNE, 4.3 light seconds starts you 
at maximum combat range (under ideal conditions) - the defenders have little 
time to concentrate their forces before the firing starts.  Balanced, I 
suppose, by how far apart in space/time the attacking fleet's ships exit from 
jump space.


- --
Edward Swatschek - edjs@mindlink.net

The only truly "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that,
it's all learned. (Bruce Ediger, bediger@teal.csn.org, in
comp.os.linux.misc, on X interfaces.)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #515
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Subj:	Traveller-digest V1998 #516
Date:	5/24/98 10:08:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time    
From:	owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com (Traveller-digest)    
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com    
Reply-to:	traveller@mpgn.com    
To:	traveller-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM    
    
    
Traveller-digest        Monday, May 25 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 516    
    
    
    
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.    
All rights reserved.    
    
The following topics are covered in this digest:    
    
Re: Misjumps?    
Re: Piracy    
Re: Starflight & Traveller    
Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product    
Tech Levels in Trade    
Solomani Jump Drives    
Re: Solomani Jump Drives    
New "Classic" Traveller Product    
Misjumps...    
Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product (another me too)    
Re: Solomani Jump Drives    
Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product (another me too)    
re: Sensors    
Re: Misjumps?    
Re: Misjumps?     
Tech Levels in Trade    
Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product    
Re: Er... (Thursters and Fusion Plants)    
    
----------------------------------------------------------------------    
    
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 19:06:02 -0700 (PDT)    
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>    
Subject: Re: Misjumps?    
    
Richard Hough <richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com> wrote:    
    
>There are a few more consequences in addition to the ones Michael Croft    
>mentioned:    
    
>6. Several adventures, including Twilight's Peak and The Traveller    
>Adventure, require ships to jump to empty hexes for the plot.    
    
True, unless there are brown dwarfs or similar things floating out there.    
    
>7. It makes deep space practically inaccessible, barring multi-decade trips    
>by HEPlaR. This rules out some interesting settings and plots.    
    
True.    
    
>8. Calibration points and deep space refueling stations become near    
>impossible.    
    
Once again, this would depend upon finding rogue planetoids, brown dwarfs    
and similar stuff.  Given that such things could only be found by    
extremely careful observation, or misjumps it would make them valuable and    
interesting choke-points.     
    
>9. By inducing misjumps, one can now get up to jump 36 safely with no extra    
>fuel. Even though you can't choose the destination; trade, exploration, and    
>news will travel orders of magnitude faster. It will, at least, obsolete    
>the Xboat network. Mains become irrelevant, too. Moreover, rifts or sectors    
>where there are only a few systems will become veritable highways since you    
>have a high chance of predicting where you'll misjump to.    
    
Here, I don't agree with you at all.  You could end up going 1-36 parsecs    
(equal chance of any) in any direction.  The point of X-boats is that they    
get the new someplace fast and reliably.  You'd need to launch *dozens* to    
get lucky and go in the direction you wanted at a distance greater than    
jump 6.  I simply don't think the Imperium has the resources to launch    
dozens of x-boats for every one that comes in, hoping to get lucky.     
    
Similarly, you could try for many months to cross a rift that way.  You'll    
*eventually* succeed, but blind chance it not something you can use for    
anything other than an initial mapping voyage by truly daredevil/insane    
explorers.     
    
Also remember that you could come out of jump around a white dwarf with no    
planets or gas giants (ie no fuel) or in some similarly dubious position.     
    
I wouldn't inflict this type of fate of PCs since random death is not the    
way I like to game (unless their ship had adequate low berths and I wanted    
to throw them a few decades forward in time).     
    
Also, I would (and always have) prohibited any form of controlled    
misjumping.  (Using MT rules) if you are not doing a Hazardous jump then a    
misjump only occurs 1/12 of the time you have a jump mishap, otherwise you    
simply end up further from your destination in the same system, or simply    
in jump a few days longer.  If you are doing Hazardous jumps then on a 15+    
your ship is destroyed.  I would under no circumstances modify either of    
these rolls (except through retries to prevent misjumping in the first    
place.     
    
Sure, I would happily allow a ship to deliberately induce a jump mishap,    
but betting that this mishap will result in an actual misjump, of the    
proper distance, in the correct direction sounds pretty foolish to me,    
especially since you can end up dead.     
    
Travel through misjump sounds like something that simply wouldn't catch on    
except among the truly desperate or the truly stupid.     
    
    
- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com    
    
------------------------------    
    
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 22:09:57 -0400    
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>    
Subject: Re: Piracy    
    
I think that perhaps the best way to figure out how to get piracy to    
work is to put it in the hands of the players.  Let them be the pirates    
trying to steal ships.  See what they come up with.  The GM should even    
be generous with starting capital, just to see if they can get it to    
work.    
    
------------------------------    
    
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 00:37:48 -0400    
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>    
Subject: Re: Starflight & Traveller    
    
From: Journey <jjgray@mindspring.com>    
    
    
>Does anyone remember the old computer game Starflight? I've been tinkering    
>with integrating parts of Starflight and Traveller together. I'm curious to    
>know what people think of the various alien races, especially the main    
>three (Velox, Elowan and Thrynn) in an Imperium setting.    
    
    
Starflight rocked most mightily.  I loved that game.  Actually, my favorite    
game of all time.    
    
I briefly considered a Starflight-based Traveller game, I don't have many    
notes for it at the moment though.  Actually, I wonder where they went.    
    
semo@pil.net    
    
------------------------------    
    
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 01:03:06 -0400 (EDT)    
From: mfulghum@awod.com (Michael Fulghum)    
Subject: Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product    
    
I would buy a copy also.    
    
Mike Fulghum    
    
------------------------------    
    
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 22:16:19 -0700    
From: "Brannon \"Ben\" Boren" <brannonb@blarg.net>    
Subject: Tech Levels in Trade    
    
Hi folks,    
    
I'm new to the list, so someone can clue me in if this has already been    
discussed to death. I've been playing Traveller since 1980, but have not    
played any of the incarnations except the original. I have never actually    
played T4 (I just bought the rulebook a ccouple of weeks ago)    
    
In the T4 rules, there are modifiers which affect the buying price and the    
eventual sale pricce of a cargo. One of these is for the difference in tech    
level between the sourceworld and the destination world. Going from High to    
Low tech is a good modifier.    
    
Now is this to imply that there are no items on a low tech world which    
would bring good prices if bought and shipped back to a high tech world? No    
unique local foods, no crafts of handmade work which you simply don't see    
in mass-produced high-tech cultures, no raw materials which higher tech    
worlds might be lacking in (can you say 'old growth timber')?     
    
    
Has anyone tossed around modifiers to the Cost and Price tables that take    
this into account?    
    
Thanks,    
Ben    
    
- --    
Brannon "Ben" Boren    
brannonb@blarg.net    
http://www.mog.net/brannonb/    
    
------------------------------    
    
Date: Sun, 24 May 98 09:37:59 +0100    
From: Fred Hood <Fred@cetaganda.demon.co.uk>    
Subject: Solomani Jump Drives    
    
>That only follows if "discovery" of Jump 1 must preceed "discovery" of Jump    
>2.  And it assumes that the Solomani really did invent jump...and I've    
>always half suspected...;->    
    
Why do all those Vilani star systems have the same names as cities in     
Mesopotamia?    
I've toyed with a scenario set in around 6,000 BC, with a misjumping     
Vilani ship. Maybe the Terrans went straight to Jump-2.    
There's also the GURPS:Traveller/Illuminati/Warehouse23/Special Ops     
crossover: was the real purpose of the Gulf War the recovery of the Jump     
drive from Iraq?    
    
    
Fred.    
    
PS: The merest though of not buying a Traveller product by a Keith     
brother hadn't begun to think about crossing my mind.    
    
------------------------------    
    
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 22:38:31 +1200    
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>    
Subject: Re: Solomani Jump Drives    
    
>>That only follows if "discovery" of Jump 1 must preceed "discovery" of Jump    
>>2.  And it assumes that the Solomani really did invent jump...and I've    
>>always half suspected...;->    
    
>Why do all those Vilani star systems have the same names as cities in     
>Mesopotamia?    
    
I'm sorry you're not cleared for that.    
    
>I've toyed with a scenario set in around 6,000 BC, with a misjumping     
>Vilani ship. Maybe the Terrans went straight to Jump-2.    
    
Nope, according to "canon" they reach TL 9 in 2087AD with the discovery of    
Jump 1. They reached TL 10 in 2118AD and TL 11 (jump 2) in 2120AD. Basically    
they discovered jump 1, met the Vilani, fought the 1st Interstellar War and    
copied the Vilani technology to get Jump 2 in just 33 years.    
    
This has been the subject of some discussion before and a whole lot of people    
think its a neat idea (sorry, but I'm not one of them). Still it does make for    
an interesting theory. For an "official" answer, we'll have to wait on an    
official E21 sourcebook from Marc.    
    
>There's also the GURPS:Traveller/Illuminati/Warehouse23/Special Ops     
>crossover: was the real purpose of the Gulf War the recovery of the Jump     
>drive from Iraq?    
    
Not my glass of coffee, but I can see it making a real fun X-files type    
senario.    
    
  Andrew etc.    
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz    
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm    
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/abuse/abuse.htm (child abuse site)    
****************************************************************************    
"Worst thing about being a multiple is filling out the name tags"    
****************************************************************************    
    
------------------------------    
    
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 06:53:59 -0400    
From: Andy Slack <AndySlack@compuserve.com>    
Subject: New "Classic" Traveller Product    
    
I'm up for it.    
    
Andy    
    
------------------------------    
    
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 06:53:56 -0400    
From: Andy Slack <AndySlack@compuserve.com>    
Subject: Misjumps...    
    
Message text written by Joe Petit:    
>Since Jump 1 allows for jumps within the system, they may have always used    
it    
to explore and colonize Sol system.  Then one day, somebody thinks "Hmm...    
what    
if we..." and poof!  Jump 2 was invented.<    
    
IIRC in Traveller canon Solomani jump was originally used for fast insystem    
transport by the UN space commission.    
    
Andy    
    
------------------------------    
    
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 08:41:04 -0500    
From: Mark A Nordstrand <markn@wavefront.com>    
Subject: Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product (another me too)    
    
Put my name on the list.    
    
Mark    
    
------------------------------    
    
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 10:52:00 -0700    
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>    
Subject: Re: Solomani Jump Drives    
    
> From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>    
> >Why do all those Vilani star systems have the same names as cities in     
> >Mesopotamia?    
> I'm sorry you're not cleared for that.    
    
I have always thought it came from the rule of man.    
    
> >There's also the GURPS:Traveller/Illuminati/Warehouse23/Special Ops     
> >crossover: was the real purpose of the Gulf War the recovery of the Jump    
    
> >drive from Iraq?    
> Not my glass of coffee, but I can see it making a real fun X-files type    
> senario.    
    
I can see it now.    
    
<Bridge of a TL:  9 Scout Ship>    
Mulder:  The Truth is out there.    
Scully:  Right, Mulder.    
Skinner:  Arlight, kids, no fighting.    
TCSM:  Does anyone mind if I smoke?    
    
>   Andrew etc.    
    
Legate, Militant Jewish Terrorist    
ICQ # 8973001    
legate@futureone.com    
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm    
    
"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to    
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.    
    
------------------------------    
    
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 10:57:06 -0700    
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>    
Subject: Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product (another me too)    
    
> From: Mark A Nordstrand <markn@wavefront.com>    
> Put my name on the list.    
>     
> Mark    
    
Dittos here as well.    
    
Legate, Militant Jewish Terrorist    
ICQ # 8973001    
legate@futureone.com    
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm    
    
"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to    
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.    
    
------------------------------    
    
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 13:12:47 -0700    
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)    
Subject: re: Sensors    
    
>>I haven't seen FF&S2 and I don't have the technical knowledge to judge,    
>>but am I right in assuming that that means realistic, real-world sensors?    
>Depends on who you ask.  It doesn't mean what we can do today    
>and any extrapolation is a guess.    

Actually, TL-8 FFS2 sensors pretty much are "what we can do today" (or    
"what we could do if we had big spaceships to attach sensors too),    
and the extrapolation from there is fairly moderate...TL10+ gets    
magic visible-light phased-arrays, and every couple of TLs gets    
better computers and better cooling for the sensor array.    
    
Bruce    
    
------------------------------    
    
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 16:32:37 -0400    
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>    
Subject: Re: Misjumps?    
    
Eris wrote:    
> >You _have_ to be able to jump into empty space. Otherwise    
> >the Solomani can't discover Jump Drive. Which would kind of    
> >a) suck and b) destroy all of canonical Traveller history.    
>     
> That only follows if "discovery" of Jump 1 must preceed "discovery" of Jump    
> 2.  And it assumes that the Solomani really did invent jump...and I've    
> always half suspected...;->    
    
Hm, well, yes,  I'd never thought about it that way. Although it would    
seem odd that the Solomani would go to the trouble of making it sound     
like they did the 1-2-3 progression instead of just saying straight    
out that they invented Jump 2 in the first place. I mean, if they    
went from 0-2 when the poor Vilani were mostly still stuck at 1    
that would really make them seem mucho superior to the Vilani. For    
the Vilani, the appearance of superiority is probably at least as     
important as actually being superior. I mean, the Vilani are the    
fathers of the whole Major/Minor race thing after all.    
    
Since I'm at home for once... from AM6, 'Solomani':    
    
  The range of the jump-1 drives first developed by UNSCA was    
  insufficient to reach the nearest star -- Alpha Centauri. It took    
  several years before a US Space Force team based on Luna tried    
  a mission which, over several trips, established an intermediate    
  stopover and refuelling point about one one parsec out. For various    
  reasons, the mission was to Barnard's Star instead of Alpha Centauri.    
    
So, if they didn't really just have Jump-1, why go to all the bother    
to cover it up?    
    
> >Eris, don't get me started. We all know that jump drive is    
> >"discovered" like gold, not like gravity.    
>     
> ...like "planted" gold, perhaps?  We know what the Solomani *say* about    
> their discovery of jump drive, but we don't know what really happened.  I    
> could *discover* an unknown Aztec temple buried in the jungle, but that    
> doesn't mean I built it.    
    
Well, sure, but there's no evidence that any of the other races that    
"discovered" jump drive "discovered" anything more then jump 1. Heck,    
even the Aslan probably only started with J1.    
    
> I won't allow jumping to empty space...IMTU...and I'll let "history" take    
> care of itself.    
    
History may not be any more trustable than that unshaven guy who     
buys a lot of really small ziploc bags at the local corner store    
but I don;t think that jumping into empty hexes is bad thing.    
    
Ethan    
- --    
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com    
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com    
    
------------------------------    
    
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 17:03:53 -0400    
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>    
Subject: Re: Misjumps?     
    
> History may not be any more trustable than that unshaven guy who     
> buys a lot of really small ziploc bags at the local corner store    
> but I don;t think that jumping into empty hexes is bad thing.    
    
It's not.  And a couple of CT adventures include jumping into empty space with     
nothing of significance around them.  This includes Twilight's Peak as well as     
the tradewar segment of The Traveller Adventure.  And I'm *sure* there was a     
time or 3 I *don't* know about in some of the older JTAS'es.    
    
Keven    
    
- --     
==============================================================================    
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html    
==============================================================================    
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger    
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public    
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance    
    
------------------------------    
    
Date: Sun, 24 May 98 23:13     
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)    
Subject: Tech Levels in Trade    
    
Moin Brannon "Ben" Boren,    
    
> Has anyone tossed around modifiers to the Cost and Price tables that take    
> this into account?    
    
	Knight Fall had a patch for Merchant Prince sales price :    
    
	Natural Resource 		ingnore techlevel effect    
	Processed Resource		use techlevel effect as given    
	Manufactured Hardware		allway's use techlevel effect as minus    
	Manufactured NonHardware	use techlevel effect as given    
	Information			use techlevel effect as given    
	Novelity			allway's use techlevel effect as plus    
    
- --     
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe    
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "    
    
------------------------------    
    
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 19:32:21 -0700    
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>    
Subject: Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product    
    
Sanders wrote:    
    
> I am in the midst of talks with Andrew Keith about the possible release of    
> his Classic Traveller book "Letter of Marque"     
    
    
> *** My question to the list is this - How many of you would be interested in    
> buying this 'Classic Traveller' era book? I would need to be reasonably    
> certain that I could sell at least 70 of the 100 copies before I am willing    
> to invest my time and effort (as well as money ;) in this project. ***    
    
    
Please add my name to the list of prospective buyers for the above.    
Thank you.    
    
Jim Cooper    
    
------------------------------    
    
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 21:37:57 PST    
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)    
Subject: Re: Er... (Thursters and Fusion Plants)    
    
In mail you write:    
    
> Fri, 22 May 1998 03:43:32 -0700 (PDT), "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>    
>>Also, thruster plates are better than a Bussard Ramjet, but they aren't    
>>incredibly better than one, especially since they have the 2,000 AU cut    
>>off, so they're not changing the universe *that* much,    
>    
> Actually, I've heard it claimed that the Bussard Ramjet won't work.    
> The drag from collecting the hydrogen exeeds the thrust it gives.    
> However, I don't know how true this is.    
    
It's *always* been known that there would be a velocity at which drag    
balanced thrust for a Bussard ramjet. It's just that in the last 15-20    
years, someone had the time and computer power to figure it out. And it    
turns out to be too low to get enough of a tau factor to matter. (I    
think I heard that the limit looked to be less than 5% of c, but don't    
quote me on that!).    
    
- --     
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)    
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred    
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort    
    
------------------------------    
    
End of Traveller-digest V1998 #516    
**********************************    
    
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Traveller-digest        Monday, May 25 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 517



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Misjumps?
Re: Escort tonnage
Re: Inside a firing spinal mount
Re: [T98#508] Aliens (was: Starflight & Traveller)
Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product
Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product
AUCTION: Classic Traveller (Dark Nebula, Books 4/5/6/7/8, Gamelords)
Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product
Re: Supplement 5 anyone?-Description?
Re: Misjumps?
Trade Rules
Re: Misjump?
Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product
Re: Escort tonnage
Re: Misjumps?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 21:18:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

In mail you write:

> On 05/22/98 at 10:59 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:
>
>>100 diameters from earth is well beyond the moon. 6400 km *200 =
>>1,280,000 km. Mean Earth-moon distance is only 400,000 km. 
>
> I know that Leonard.
>
>>At 4.3 light seconds, there's time to get your defenses doing things. 
>
> That depends on the weapon ranges, how fast the attackers can close on the
> planet, and where the defenders are in the game you're playing. As I
> continue to say, IMTU.

Allowing that it *is* YTU, I'm going to make a few comments applicable
to most TUs.

I suspect that in the general case, this is much like the Napoleonic
era (which Traveller emulates in a lot of ways). 

Sure, your fleet can appear from out of nowhere and be in weapons
range. Alas, that means that your fleet is in range of the shore
batteries. And as with Traveller, there are things a shore battery can
use that your ships can't.

Also, when you come out of jump, it takes time to orient yourself. Not
only do you have to determine where you are with respect to the planet,
you also have to co-ordinate with other elements of your fleet that
have come out earlier. 

I think that takes longer than it takes the planet to detect the first
few emergences.

BTW, we have an interesting "command & control" problem here. Does the
senior officer present have command, or is it handled some other way?
How do you hand over control when a more senior officer's ship comes
out of jump? On a multi-jump course to an attack, at what point do you
quit waiting for stragglers after the first jump and make the second?
What if one of the stragglers (or worse yet, misjumped!) is the force
commander? 

I suspect that the Imperial Navy has to consider situations we haven't
even thought off due to jump not being perfectly synchronized. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 21:41:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage

In mail you write:

> [To clear up a few loose ends.  I'm not going to reiterate the
> piracy thread again...]
> Fri, 22 May 1998 14:26:40 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
> [Stuff that has been covered deleted...]
>>>This assumes pirate "hang around" rather than just take targets of
>>>opportunity as they pass through.
>
>>Once again you ignore the _fact_ that a civilian ship that is conducting
>>legitimate business while waiting for a target of opportunity has to do
>>so in its proper identity or at the very least runs a grave risk of
>>leaving behind abundant clues to its identity (which makes for interesting
>>problems once they have committed a crime) while a civilian ship that isn't
>>conducting legitimate business is 1) losing money and 2) exibiting 
> suspicious
>>behavior.
>
> Well, the fact that you need a _proper_ identity and you can't
> have fake ones (or it is too dangerous to do so) is an assumption,
> regardless of wether transponders can be tampered with (which is
> debatable in itself).  Even if that were true, there are ways of
> getting a "proper transponder" with a fake identity.  It also
> should be riterated that it isn't clear that transponders will
> be checked at every system (some people seem to assume that
> every system in the Imperium is like O'Hare airport when I see
> many systems being a lot more like a dirt refueling strip like
> those used in WWII as being more Traveller like.  It seems
> to me in the tendency to make everything work like our western
> society, we are loosing the entire laisse faire feelig of the
> setting).

But you have to consider that the port type determines this. A & B are
*definitely* in the "international airport" category. C seems likely to
still have traffic control and the like. It's the D, E, and X ports
where you have the "small town airport"/"dirt strip" equivalent.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 21:46:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Inside a firing spinal mount

In mail you write:

>> On 05/19/98 at 08:49 PM,  TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com> said:
>> 
>> >What would happen if someone was in the tunnel of a spinal mount that was
>> >firing?  I'm picturing whoever's inside will be killed, but should there
>> >be a chance of a "backfire" or something?
>> 
>> Slightly different question...the magnetic fieldsgenerated by a multi-GW
>> spinal should have most unpleasent effects on (a) anybody even *near* the
>> tunnel and (b) on electronics all over the ship, should it?
>
> They'd probably shield it pretty good.  A Faraday cage is easy enough to 
> design.

Farday cages are of limited use against strong *magnetic* fields. BVut
some shielding is possible.

And for what it's worth, it appears that magnetic fields strong enough
to *levitate* small animals aren't hazardous to be around. (Yes, at
high enough field strengths even normal tissue is magnetic enough to be
affected!)

If the fields in the PAW approach those levels, the PAW may be able to
fire a human at a significant velocity!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 21:51:09 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [T98#508] Aliens (was: Starflight & Traveller)

In mail you write:

>> Don't forget the Ullers.  Silicate-based, cold-blooded, with 2 major
>> rifts in the culture:  the 'tamed' wogs & the nomads.

> I'm not convinced of the biology.

Have you read the essay on their biology in the re-release of the book?
Sure, it's reaching. But not so badly that I can't suspend disbelief.

> Incidentally, for those of you who read Harry Turtledove's stuff,
> add The Race (the Lizards) from the Worldwar series to the list.

They're in for a *major* shock when frst contacted by a jump drive
using civilization. :-)

On the other hand, they'd likely be willing to join the Imperium. After
all, that's the sort of government they are used to. They'd get along
well with Vilani, but consider them somewhat rash, and nowhere near
conservative enough or cautious enough.

Oh yeah, I want the ginger contract... :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 22:15:26 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product

>Subject: Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product
...
>> I am in the midst of talks with Andrew Keith about the possible release of
>> his Classic Traveller book "Letter of Marque" 
...
>Please add my name to the list of prospective buyers for the above.
>Thank you.
>
>Jim Cooper

  If this book doesn't end up being available through any other
channel then those of us in south-west BC could simply order all
our copies together to avoid redundant customs fees (GST + $5!).
Et tu, James?

        Steven Hudson, Vancouver

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 12:27:46 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product

>Even if Marc is willing to wave any lic. fee for this one-time printing, to
>cover my costs (fee to Andrew, possible fee to Marc, printing costs of 100
>copies, postage) the price would be roughly $14-15.00 per book (that price
>would include postage within North America, add an additional $1 for orders
>outside that area).
>
>*** My question to the list is this - How many of you would be interested in
>buying this 'Classic Traveller' era book? I would need to be reasonably
>certain that I could sell at least 70 of the 100 copies before I am willing
>to invest my time and effort (as well as money ;) in this project. ***
>

I want one, but I'd like to suggest that you sell it at a profit. Most
people on the list would buy it anyway (I'd do it) and it would encourage
similar ventures if you could actually earn a modest bundle.

I'll buy one if it costs no more than 50 US dollars including shipping.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 03:46:22 -0700
From: Joel Pratt <jpratt@ucla.edu>
Subject: AUCTION: Classic Traveller (Dark Nebula, Books 4/5/6/7/8, Gamelords)

Classic Traveller Auction

Rules:
1) Email all bids to jpratt@ucla.edu
2) Purchaser pays all shipping charges.
3) American funds only, please, as check or money order.
4) Items will be held until check clears.
5) Bidding will continue until price stops rising. Going/Goingx2/Gone.
6) Email me (jpratt@ucla.edu) if you have any questions.
7) Auction will be posted to TML only twice
8) Thanks for looking.


BOOK 1/2/3 (In Black Box)
Books are Second Edition and in Very Good Condition
Box is badly scuffed, with one wrecked corner
Minimum Bid: $20

BOOK 4 - Mercenary
Excellent Condition
Minimum Bid: $10
Current Bid: $10 Chemist
(error in previous update)

BOOK 5 - High Guard (revised & retypeset edition)
Good Condition (cover scuffed, minor pencil marks, some yellowing/age)
Minimum Bid: $10

BOOK 6 - Scouts
Very Good Condition
Minimum Bid: $10
Current Bid: $10 Chemist (GOING)

BOOK 7 - Merchant Prince
Excellent Condition
Minimum Bid: $10
Current Bid: $17 Harvester

BOOK 8 - Robots
Excellent Condition
Minimum Bid: $10
Current Bid: $11 Harvester


LEE'S GUIDE TO INTERSTELLAR ADVENTURE (Vol. 1)
Gamelords, Ltd.
(Rare!)
Excellent Condition
Minimum Bid: $10

A PILOT'S GUIDE TO THE DREXILTHAR SUBSECTOR
Gamelords, Ltd.
(Rare - by J. Andrew Keith)
Excellent Condition
Minimum Bid: $10

DARK NEBULA (Series 120 Boardgame)
Mint (unpunched components, box shows some wear at corners)
Minimum Bid: $20
Current Bid: $20 Richard (GOING)

- --
Joel Pratt
jpratt@ucla.edu

- --Joel Pratt
jpratt@ucla.edu

"Bill Clinton does not have the moral fiber to be a mass murderer."
 -- Nobel Peace Prize recipient Dr. Henry Kissinger, Spring 1997

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 21:34:28 +1200
From: frankie@mundens.gen.nz (Frank G. Pitt)
Subject: Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product

One more taker here.

Might even take two or three, I'm sure I'll be able to find a couple
of locals that would want one.


- -- 
Frankie

Frank G. Pitt | When in doubt, wash | fun:   frankie@mundens.gen.nz
Wellington    |   (Orlando)         |        frankie@paradise.net.nz 
New Zealand   |                     | profit: fpitt@nz1.ibm.com
    

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 21:52:41 +1200
From: frankie@mundens.gen.nz (Frank G. Pitt)
Subject: Re: Supplement 5 anyone?-Description?

In article <001201bd80e0$cb0b7fc0$1f06edd0@default>,
"Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com> wrote:
>AHL was the largest ship designed with deck plans during the course of
>Traveller. I don't remember exact numbers, something like 100,000 td ?
>Published as a game with full color deck plans, scenarios, adn the near
>mythical Suppliment 5 (unavailable without purchase of the game) whic
>included stats and "tumbnail" views of the various decks of the AHL, along
>with discriptive material.

Ok, here's the details from my copy.

It's called Supplement 5 : Lightening Class Cruisers

The Lightning class were only 60,000 tons,
(nowhere near a Tigress class dreadnaught, at 500,000 tons)

Azhanti High Lightning also contained shipboard combat rules
that differed from both Traveller and Snapshot!,

>Striker was the large combat Traveller game. I never owned it but I belive
>it contained rules to create and operate large unit "Mercenary" or Ground
>Combat type combat, as well a construct nd use ground combat vehicles. I
>don't remember if it covered air combat or not.

Striker is a game for 15mm miniatures, plus an associated
design sequence for small (non-starship sized) vehicles
of all types.

It was not designed for large unit actions, more squad to
company level actions. It is unworkable at any larger size.

The design was for ground combat, but the rules do cover
aircraft and grav vehicles, and even the addition of
orbital suppport.

However, IMO, the Renegade Legion "set" Centurion, Interceptor
and Prefect, give a much better feel to Traveller-style
combat than Striker, which feels far too close to modern
warfare for some reason.

The best part of it (IMO) was it's rules for command and
control and unit morale.

It's named for the striker missions (see definition in Book 4)
it was written to simulate.



- -- 
Frankie

Frank G. Pitt | When in doubt, wash | fun:   frankie@mundens.gen.nz
Wellington    |   (Orlando)         |        frankie@paradise.net.nz 
New Zealand   |                     | profit: fpitt@nz1.ibm.com
    

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 23:29:30 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

At 09:18 PM 24/05/98 PST, Eris Reddoch wrote:

>Allowing that it *is* YTU, I'm going to make a few comments applicable
>to most TUs.
>
>I suspect that in the general case, this is much like the Napoleonic
>era (which Traveller emulates in a lot of ways). 
>
>Sure, your fleet can appear from out of nowhere and be in weapons
>range. Alas, that means that your fleet is in range of the shore
>batteries. And as with Traveller, there are things a shore battery can
>use that your ships can't.
>
>Also, when you come out of jump, it takes time to orient yourself. Not
>only do you have to determine where you are with respect to the planet,
>you also have to co-ordinate with other elements of your fleet that
>have come out earlier. 
>
>I think that takes longer than it takes the planet to detect the first
>few emergences.

IMTU if the planetary defences have more than one sensor station they will
definately be able to because ships entering or leaving jump make
distinctive gravitational 'ripples' as they enter or leave our universe.
With a couple of sensors a decent distance apart you can get a reasonable
fix on the position of an emerging ship. If lots of ships come out together
and don't immediately start squrking the right IFF signals you know you've
got a fight on.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 12:55:10
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Trade Rules

>Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 22:09:57 -0400
>From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
>Subject: Re: Piracy
>
>I think that perhaps the best way to figure out how to get piracy to
>work is to put it in the hands of the players.  Let them be the pirates
>trying to steal ships.  See what they come up with.  The GM should even
>be generous with starting capital, just to see if they can get it to
>work.
>

I'd do four teams of players - the ethically challenged civilians, the
local authorities, the Space Patrol and the orginised merchants. That way
you get sneakiness on all sides.

>From: "Brannon \"Ben\" Boren" <brannonb@blarg.net>
>Subject: Tech Levels in Trade
>
>Hi folks,
>
>In the T4 rules, there are modifiers which affect the buying price and the
>eventual sale pricce of a cargo. One of these is for the difference in tech
>level between the sourceworld and the destination world. Going from High to
>Low tech is a good modifier.
>

The T4 trade system is essentially the one in little black book 7, Merchant
Prince.

>Now is this to imply that there are no items on a low tech world which
>would bring good prices if bought and shipped back to a high tech world? No
>unique local foods, no crafts of handmade work which you simply don't see
>in mass-produced high-tech cultures, no raw materials which higher tech
>worlds might be lacking in (can you say 'old growth timber')? 

It also implies lo-tech worlds are going to have consistent and massive
balance of trade problems, as they buy all these hi tech goods with no
exports to pay for them.

The goods you are listing are what I'd call goods with subjective value - a
handcrafted quilt is probably worse at keeping you warm at night than a
TL12 blanket, but people will buy it for reasons other than it's actual
usefulness. The vanilla trade system seems to be about goods with objective
value - goods from industrial systems sell well in non-industrial systems,
because industrial worlds build better widgets due to lower pollution
emmission standards or economies of scale, not becasue people like owning
widgets from Industrial worlds.

The other major complication is local currency value. For example, a TL12
Far Trader is functionally almost identical to the TL15 version - it's
sensors are a bit worse, it's power plant is a bit bigger, but nothing that
important to taking cargo from world A to world B. On the other hand, a
TL12 warship really cant compete with a TL15 warship of similar cost.
Therefore, a TL12 world could discount it's TL12 freighters in order to buy
a smaller number of TL15 warships with the TL15 currency so gained.

Similar goods include old, clunky TL8 fission plants vis a vis TL12 fusion
plants. According to Fire, Fusion and Steel (which you should get if you
are at all a gearhead) costs TL8 fission plants at KCr100 per megawatt,
plus Kcr 7.5 worth of fuel per megawatt per year. TL12 fusion plants also
cost KCr 100 per megawatt, with fuel (hydrogen) effectivly free. Purchasers
may be prepared to live with an old, clunky fission power plant (perhaps as
an emergency backup for an asteroid mining colony, to minimise ongoing fuel
costs) if the vendor is prepared to offer an appropriate discount - say,
50%. The TL8 world may be more than happy to sell fission plants for half
their 'value', if it can get paid in TL12 credits that can buy things
(nuclear dampers, thruster plates, contragravity) that they just cant
produce domestically (think how many nuclear plants ripped out of Los
Angeles class submarines the US government would swap for one
slightly-used, only-one-owner Type S scout).

>
>
>Has anyone tossed around modifiers to the Cost and Price tables that take
>this into account?

My feeling is Trader skill is the way to go. If they have it, they have a
chance of finding a good that will let them ignore the TL modifier when it
gets to the export market, whether through being a cut-price
lo-tech-but-does-the-job export or something that people are buying due to
subjective value.

I dont know - maybe a base roll of 12 on 2 dice to find such a good, with a
+2 DM per level of trader skill (+1 per level if you are using the generous
T4 chargen system). Rolling doubles on a success lets the GM mandate a
target market, require special handling procedures or something similar.
Missing the roll by more than 4 means you buy it but get stuck with a cargo
that follows the standard trade rules. Needless to say, one person cant
both do this and be their own broker, and you dont get to find out if it
was a success or a bad failure until you try and sell that forty-ton batch
of genuine hand-made wood-fired pottery. Best way to record such goods is
probably with a * where the TL usually goes.

The other thing this means to me is a lo-tech world being a lot happier to
buy off you, if you will in effect take their exports in exchange (rather
than hard currency). If they are really lucky, you might even help them
create a viable long-term export industry.

Hmm, thinking about it, you might be able to use the same rules to avoid
the Starport Effects added costs on 'normal' speculative cargoes. I dunno -
Admin or Bribery come to mind as better mechanisms to reflect convincing
the local authorities to let you land somewhat closer to the source of the
goods, and thus avoid the additional costs.

While we're about it, every level of broker and/or trader should be able to
cancel one TL difference on the Freight table, providing again our purser
isnt doing anything else in that week. Oh yeah, and after a positive 3 TL
difference between source and market the TL Trade Price Mods should drop by
10%,   per level exceeding three, including going negative - the goods are
just too high tech to articulate properly into the local economy and
society, or need too much in the way of imported maintainence - TL8 sonars
are just dandy to a TL5 navy facing another TL5 navy using submarines, but
very little use to a TL3 navy.

Hmmm, these rules seem to make it worth bringing two pursers along - an
assistant to try and line up freight while the boss is off looking into
good speculative cargos.

Finally, we need some discounting rules ... how about every Cr 1000 (Cr100
for Low) discount on passenger costs gets another 1d6 passengers, and every
Cr100 discount on freight charges gets double the amount of freight ?
Again, you sets your prices and then you takes your chances - discounting
probably wont make you money, but it might cause you to lose less on an
unprofitable route.

Hmmm, I'm goanna play with these rules for a bit ... can other people
playtest them too ?

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 14:18:32 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Misjump?

John R. Snead writes:

>>8. Calibration points and deep space refueling stations become near
>>impossible.
>
>Once again, this would depend upon finding rogue planetoids, brown dwarfs
>and similar stuff.  Given that such things could only be found by
>extremely careful observation, or misjumps it would make them valuable and
>interesting choke-points. 

Not at all. Finding them would be dead simple. You just aim your jump for
the middle of the empty hex in question. If there is any dark world in the
hex you'll end up next to it. If there is more than one you might have
difficulty finding them all, but if there are any at all, you're guaranteed
to find at least one. And if you don't find any, then jumps to deep space
in that hex would be impossible now and forever.

>Also, I would (and always have) prohibited any form of controlled
>misjumping. 

How about making a jump-6 into an 11-parsec wide rift? You'd either wind
up at a dark world in the middle of the rift or you'd continue across to
the other side. In either case the rifts become highways rather than
obstacles.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 05:22:18 -0700
From: Dave Strebe <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product

Me also.
Dave

Steven Hudson wrote:

> >Subject: Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product
> ...
> >> I am in the midst of talks with Andrew Keith about the possible release of
> >> his Classic Traveller book "Letter of Marque"
> ...
> >Please add my name to the list of prospective buyers for the above.
> >Thank you.
> >
> >Jim Cooper
>
>   If this book doesn't end up being available through any other
> channel then those of us in south-west BC could simply order all
> our copies together to avoid redundant customs fees (GST + $5!).
> Et tu, James?
>
>         Steven Hudson, Vancouver

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 14:46:52 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage

David P. Summers writes:

>Fri, 22 May 1998 14:26:40 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
> 
>>Once again you ignore the _fact_ that a civilian ship that is conducting
>>legitimate business while waiting for a target of opportunity has to do
>>so in its proper identity or at the very least runs a grave risk of
>>leaving behind abundant clues to its identity (which makes for interesting
>>problems once they have committed a crime) while a civilian ship that isn't
>>conducting legitimate business is 1) losing money and 2) exibiting suspicious
>>behavior.
> 
>Well, the fact that you need a _proper_ identity and you can't have fake
>ones (or it is too dangerous to do so) is an assumption, regardless of
>whether transponders can be tampered with (which is debatable in itself).

Oh, I'm perfectly willing to assume that you can do business using a fake
ID and certainly fake transponders are canonical enough. What I regard as
an assumption too unlikely to be valid is that you can do business
without risking leaving behind clues to the identity of the ship.

I do think that using a fake identity also runs the risk of getting you
in trouble just for that, but that's not the big problem. The big problem
is when you've managed somehow to actually capture an opportune target
and the authorities begin looking for you in earnest. You'll then have
the option of getting caught or getting rid of your ship. Your multi-
million credit ship.

>It also should be reiterated that it isn't clear that transponders will
>be checked at every system

Since "checking" a transponder consists of beaming it a signal and recording
the response, I rather think you will be checked in most systems, though not
necessarily in all of those with class E starports. But that's not really
the point. The point is that our would-be pirate can't be certain that he
_won't _ be checked. It's like parking your getaway vehicle outside the
bank you're going to rob. There's no guarantee that someone will take down
your license number, but you can't be _sure_ that it won't happen. Now
imagine that your getaway car is a solid gold Caddilac worth considerably
more than you can expect to get in the heist. Does it make sense to rob the
bank in a car owned by you that's so expensive that ditching it will cost
you more than the robbery gave you? Yet that is essentially what a pirate
does when he tries to catch an rusted-up old Free Trader. 

>(some people seem to assume that every system in the Imperium is like
>O'Hare airport when I see many systems being a lot more like a dirt
>refueling strip like those used in WWII as being more Traveller like.

All it takes to check a transponder is a radio only slightly more
sophisticated than those used during WWII.

>Also, the assumption is that you are either conducting legitimate
>business or not.  The non-piracy business could range from legitamite
>trading to smuggling (to both at once).

1) If you're doing legitimate trading you're either in a legitimate
merchant ship unfit to chase down and defeat your fellow merchants
or you're in a souped-up merchant ship that's completely unable to
make ends meet legitimately (and risks arousing suspicions when its
cargo manifests keep showing a lot of empty cargo space). Even if
you're smuggling you're leaving behind people who know who you are
and will be able to sell you out for the reward (And if you pirate
a multi-million credit ship there _will_ be a reward... And that's
no assumption...).
 
>>I haven't seen FF&S2 and I don't have the technical knowledge to judge,
>>but am I right in assuming that that means realistic, real-world sensors?
> 
>Depends on who you ask.  It doesn't mean what we can do today
>and any extrapolation is a guess.

Any extrapolation becomes the game truth.
 


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
"Facts are stubborn things, but not half so stubborn as fallacies."
                - Stella Maynard in "Anne of the Island"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 15:07:56 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

Rupert Boleyn writes:

>At 12:55 PM 22/05/98 -0500, Eris wrote:
> 
>>The other thing that has always bothered me about the "100 diameters
>>from...Earth" is that a fleet could appear from out of nowhere right on the
>>planet's doorstep. A fleet jumping in a hundred diameters from Earth would
>>be able to launch an attack before a credible defense could be mounted.
> 
>Even in canon MT and TNE 100 diameters from Earth is way too close. In MT
>it's about 50 range bands, and as extreme combat range goes out to 100 or
>200 hundred bands (the books aren't clear, surprise, surprise) you can jump
>in and start shooting. In TNE 100 diameters caomes to about 42 hexes, which
>is just about the maximum range you can hit a really big ship. You can also
>easily shoot stationary targets from that range.
>
>This makes attack and defense a matter of who shoots first - no tactics,
>etc needed. The defender would have about 4 - 8 defense squadrons spread
>evenly around the 100 dia. sphere about 50 diameters out. The attacker
>jumps in and then it's just a race to see who can aquire and hit the
>opponent first.

There are two small problems with doing that: 1) Even with the coordinated
fleet jump, ships arrive spread out plus/minus 20 minutes (bell curve).
That means the defenders get surprised by the first ship that arrives.
It acquires a target and kills it. Then it gets killed in turn as the
entire defense squadron concentrates on just that one target. After that
the attacker loses most of the first so-and-so-many ships to arrive until
enough of the fleet has arrived to engage all the defenders. Not an
appealing scenario for the attacker, IMO. 2) The attacker has no way of
knowing for sure the strength of the defenders. If a fleet just happens
to be visiting the defending system while the attacker arrives, he is
toast.

For these reasons I believe that any sane admiral would jump in outside
weapon range, preferably with something still left in his tanks, and
check out the opposition before engaging them. surprise attacks are all
very well, but not when you risk being the one surprised.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "Even sub-lieutenants are God's creatures,
         though it is hard to believe it sometimes."
                        Commander Ted Walker
                   "Secret Water" by Arthur Ransome

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #517
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, May 25 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 518



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Jumping at Lagrange points / Book recommendation
Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product
Berthing Costs (long)
Memorial Day
Questions
"Letter of Marque" - Green Light! 
Re: Misjump?
Re: "Letter of Marque" - Green Light! 
Re: Misjumps?
T4 stats for larger ships, 10k tons and up...
Re: "Letter of Marque" - Green Light!
Re: "Letter of Marque" - Green Light!
Re: Misjumps?
Re: Piracy
Re: Escort tonnage
Re: Non-Jump FTL Travel
Re: Misjump?
Re: New Classic Traveller Product

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 12:16:35 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Jumping at Lagrange points / Book recommendation

I've just finished a book called 'The Reality Dysfunction', by Peter
Hamilton. Very reminisent of Iain Banks' Sci-fi (starts very like Consider
Phlebas).

A good read, but looks like it is a trilogy (the sequel to this first one
'the Neutronium Alchemist' leaves it all hanging).

The technology used is very Traveller in some ways - ships have jump nodes,
a certain number of which are needed to successfully jump, they use both
reaction drives (fusion, anti-matter and ion) and a thruster like drive.
Combat uses beam weapons along with 'combat wasps' which are basically RPVs
with gamma detontation weapons, nukes and KKMs. Jump is limited by
gravitional fields - and misjumps will occur if within them.

It is almost a view of what Traveller could be with a degree of nano-tech
and a limited capabilty to grow 'self aware' ships (Voidhawks and
Blackhawks, bio-tech ships) which co-exist with more traditional piloted
ships.

Anyway, to the point: In part of the novel, a ship avoids the gravitational
field limit by jumping at a Lagrange point. Do you think that this is
feasible in Traveller. I can't see anything that would stop this - in the
book it is described as a very risky manuever as there is only a small
region where it is safe.

Thoughts?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 08:39:23 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product

Steven Hudson wrote:

> >Please add my name to the list of prospective buyers for the above.
> >Thank you.
> >
> >Jim Cooper
> 
>   If this book doesn't end up being available through any other
> channel then those of us in south-west BC could simply order all
> our copies together to avoid redundant customs fees (GST + $5!).
> Et tu, James?
> 
>         Steven Hudson, Vancouver

Yeh, that sounds like a great idea. Do/will you want to co-ordinate such
an occurance ??

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 11:06:24 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Berthing Costs (long)

There has been some discussion on the subject of starship expenses,
particularly Berthing Costs.  The concensus was that the costs
in the various versions of Traveller were unrealistic, but that no one
had the expertise to say by how much.

I have been doing some research.  The figures below are real-world;
thanks to Colorado Springs International Airport and the Port of Houston
Authority.  First, though, what are we talking about?

Book 2, p. 8, MT (Imperial Encyclopedia), p. 90, and T4, p. 97:

"Berthing Costs.  Landing fees, handling costs, facilities use charges,
and other starport fees are a common practice, and such charges must be
paid as they occur.  The average cost is Cr100 to land and remain for
up to six days; thereafter, a Cr100 per day fee is imposed for each
additional day spent in port.  In some locations, this fee will be
higher, while at others local government subsidies will lower or
eliminate it."

TNE, p. 222, reads identically, except cost is Cr1000 for the first 6
days.

GURPS Space, p. 38:

"Starport Docking Fees (per 1,000 cy per day)	$500"

If anyone has equivalent data from Traveller: 2300 (alias 2300 AD), please
post it or send it to me privately.  I have the basic set, but the only
starship expense discussed is crew salaries.


There are two candidate models for "starports" in the real world:
commercial seaports, and commercial airports.  I looked at both. The
rates quoted are current as of 15 May 1998.  One ton = 2,000 lb.


Colorado Springs International Airport is about a "Class C" facility;
it has full services but no significant repair or rebuild capability.
Charges for non-preferential (i.e., not previously contracted - charter
instead of scheduled airline) aircraft are:

Landing fee:  	$3.04 per 2,000 lb landed gross weight
Gate fee:		$55.50 per use (enplane or deplane operation)
Ground power:		$25.00 per use
Ticket counter:	$31.00 per use (less than 6 positions)
			$73.00 per use (6 or more positions)
Apron parking:	$100.00 per use (> 2 hours)

Presumably, scheduled airlines get a significant break on this, but I
didn't check.


Port of Houston Authority covers a collection of terminals best 
described as "Class A" - there are full shipbuilding facilities 
available.  Fees here are significantly more complicated, but divide
generally into two categories:  dockage and wharfage.

Dockage are those fees that pertain to the ships themselves. Many fees
are based on the size of the ship, measured in Length Over All (LOA):

Harbor fee:	$130.35 (vessels 100-249 ft LOA - ~ 229-311 dtons)
		$385.00 (vessels 250+ ft LOA - ~ 311+ dtons)

This covers "expense of administration, ... maintenance and operation
of fire prevention and suppression, personnel and equipment, with the
view of preventing fires, aiding vessels in distress, and aiding in 
the extinguishing of fire in vessels and equipment and in their cargoes
aboard such vessels, or upon wharves and in other facilities in the 
harbor."  I found no mention of "harbor pilots", as such.

Dockage:

LOA (ft)	$/ft/day (main)	$/ft/day (container)
0-199		1.62			1.80
200-299	1.85			2.16
300-349	1.96			2.16
350-399	2.13			2.42
400-449	2.94			3.19
450-499	3.06			3.30
500-549	4.07			4.39
550-599	4.17			4.48
600-649	4.86			5.10
650-699	4.92			5.20
700-799	6.28			6.64
800-899	7.30			7.98
900+		8.50			9.53

Notice that these are not linear - there are breakpoints, which 
correspond to the lengths of the various wharves.  The larger a ship
is, the fewer wharves it can actually use.

Rates are charged in 12-hour blocks, and go down over time:
3d day	90%
4th day	75%
5th day	60%
6th+ day	50%

Failing or refusing to vacate a berth when ordered:	
$1,500/hour (main terminal)
$700/hour (container terminal)

Note that you can be ordered to vacate for refusing to pay overtime to
unload your ship.  You then wait until all the ships that *are* willing
unload before you get your turn again.

Water:		$35.00 + $4.50/1,000 gal.

Electric Power:	no data (supplied by subcontractors)

Wharfage fees apply based on the cargo, rather than the ship.  All fees
have a $15-20 or one hour minimum.

Clearing Berth:	$187.00 (500 tons of cargo or less)
			$256.00 (more than 500 tons of cargo)

This charge does not apply to bulk, container, or vehicle cargo.

Terminal fee:		$2.65/vehicle
			$4.00/passenger

Cranes and handling equipment:	$200-400 per hour, no operator provided

Loading and Unloading:	$19.80/ton (main port)
				$23.00/ton (container port)
				$6.38/ton (container, net weight), or
				$63.50/container (loaded)
				$26.00/container (empty)

There are discounts for more than 3000 units or 500 hours per year.

Any single package (not container), 	5-20 tons:	+$3.18 
						20-35 tons:	+$5.02 
						35-100 tons:	+$9.60

Wharfage:	$2.20/ton
		$0.88/ton (bulk, delivered in pipeline)

Cargo can remain on the wharf for up to 30 days without charge
('free time'). After that:

Demurrage:	$5.00/day (container)
		+$1.00/day (loaded, days 11-20)
		+$2.00/day (loaded, days 21-30), etc up to
		+$8.00/day (loaded, days 81+)

		$0.15/ton/day (days 31-37)
		$0.21/ton/day (days 38-50)
		$0.35/ton/day (days 51+)	

There are also a tremendous number of services available, from marking
crates to opening and resealing boxes for Customs inspection.

Hope this provides a reasonable basis for further discussion.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 13:42:47 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Memorial Day

Thank you vetrans, for your service and sacrifice.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 13:44:51 EDT
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: Questions

Anders said, responding to another:

>Subject: Re: Ongoing discussion on Gurps: Traveller
>
>>Well, I'm not sure that a scout ship, if you took out the
>>jump drive stuff, couldn't do a parsec STL.  However,
>>there is an issue about being able to just drive back
>>from a misjump (which has been raised regarding how
>>reliable plans to recover from a misjump in T4 are).
>>I have advocated that there should be something to
>>limit endurance....
>
>There's also the problem with radiation when you're doing close to C versus
>the interstellar medium.

Which brings me to a question that has undoubtedly been done to death either
here or somewhere (and please do not begin another discussion of it if I am
opening old wounds), so if someone could email me the relevant FAQs I'd
appreciate it: How fast do you you have to go before whacking into
interstellar hydrogen molecules becomes a significant radiation danger? What
are your odds of hitting something big enough to do you damage at 0.1+ C?

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 11:16:20 -0600
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: "Letter of Marque" - Green Light! 

Hello fellow TML'ers....it's Memorial Day and I am off to the lake for a
picnic and some boating fun...but I just wanted to let everyone know the
status of the "Letter of Marque" project.

Marc has agreed...
Andrew has agreed...
I've recieved email from 70 TML'ers expressing an interest in purchasing the
LOM manuscript...

So...expect "Letter of Marque" to be available in roughly 2-3 weeks! :)

How many of you would be willing to pay an additional $3 to have your copy
autographed by Andrew Keith himself? This extra thee bucks would go directly
to Andrew, and would help make up in a small way for the rather modest
amount I was able to pay him for the manuscript.

Stay tuned for further posts later this week.


L8r,
Paul Sanders
timmon@primenet.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 11:28:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Misjump?

Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote:

>John R. Snead writes:

>>>8. Calibration points and deep space refueling stations become near
>>>impossible.
>
>>Once again, this would depend upon finding rogue planetoids, brown dwarfs
>>and similar stuff.  Given that such things could only be found by
>>extremely careful observation, or misjumps it would make them valuable and
>>interesting choke-points. 

>Not at all. Finding them would be dead simple. You just aim your jump for
>the middle of the empty hex in question. If there is any dark world in the
>hex you'll end up next to it. If there is more than one you might have
>difficulty finding them all, but if there are any at all, you're guaranteed
>to find at least one. And if you don't find any, then jumps to deep space
>in that hex would be impossible now and forever.

Personally, I'd never allow someone to simply target a hex.  I assume that
jump coordinates specify an actual destination.  If the system I'm
considering is being used, then the only legitimate destinations are those
which contain bodies large enough to materialize near.  If the coordinates
you specify do not contain such a place then you roll some type of jump
mishap.  At this point, I'd say options are (assuming your not doing a
Hazardous jump) a chance of ending up anywhere within 36 parcecs of your
point of departure, ending up on a brown dwarf or something in the empty
hex, or ending up appearing a week or so later at your point of departure. 

OTOH, I can see saying that wildly inaccurate jump cooridinates (ie no
large mass within several dozen AUs of your destination) produces a
Hazardous misjump. 

>>Also, I would (and always have) prohibited any form of controlled
>>misjumping. 

>How about making a jump-6 into an 11-parsec wide rift? You'd either wind
>up at a dark world in the middle of the rift or you'd continue across to
>the other side. In either case the rifts become highways rather than
>obstacles.

Roll for jump mishap as above.


- -John Snead  jsenad@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 11:47:29 -0700
From: "Dave Strebe" <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: "Letter of Marque" - Green Light! 

Yes I'm willing to pay an extra $3.
Dave
- ----------
> From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: "Letter of Marque" - Green Light! 
> Date: Monday, May 25, 1998 10:16 AM
> 
<SNIP>
> How many of you would be willing to pay an additional $3 to have your
copy
> autographed by Andrew Keith himself? This extra thee bucks would go
directly
> to Andrew, and would help make up in a small way for the rather modest
> amount I was able to pay him for the manuscript.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 11:48:19 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

Sat, 23 May 1998 09:26:58 +1200, Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
>In reason I've always liked the idea of fixed jump points was to get away
>from the "fleet pops up" problem (at least, *I* see it as a problem)

Well, I see it more as a tatical challenge than a problem.  But one
could always just have a ship's energy signature preceed its exit
by one comat round so that if it tries to come out on top of
enemy forces, they will be ready....

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 15:54:25 EDT
From: Qstor <Qstor@aol.com>
Subject: T4 stats for larger ships, 10k tons and up...

This is my first post.....Does anyone know where I can find them? I have found
some great CT stats on Dave Goldens Web site for the Lightning Class and Slyea
Class larger ships...Maybe I could use Fire, Fusion and Steel to convert
them....

Thanks.
Mike McKeown "Newbie"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 15:57:21 EDT
From: Qstor <Qstor@aol.com>
Subject: Re: "Letter of Marque" - Green Light!

I'm a newbie to the list from the DC area but I'm sure that some area game
stores might be interested too.....

Mike McKeown

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 12:57:49 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: "Letter of Marque" - Green Light!

>Hello fellow TML'ers....it's Memorial Day and I am off to the lake for a
>picnic and some boating fun...but I just wanted to let everyone know the
>status of the "Letter of Marque" project.
>
>Marc has agreed...
>Andrew has agreed...
>I've recieved email from 70 TML'ers expressing an interest in purchasing the
>LOM manuscript...
>
>So...expect "Letter of Marque" to be available in roughly 2-3 weeks! :)
>
>How many of you would be willing to pay an additional $3 to have your copy
>autographed by Andrew Keith himself? This extra thee bucks would go directly
>to Andrew, and would help make up in a small way for the rather modest
>amount I was able to pay him for the manuscript.
>
>Stay tuned for further posts later this week.

Most definitly willing to pay for an autographed copy!  Sounds cool!

			Zane

| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary)  | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/                       |
| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them.    |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html            |

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 08:14:57 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

At 11:48 AM 25/05/98 -0700, David P. Summers wrote:
>Sat, 23 May 1998 09:26:58 +1200, Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
>>In reason I've always liked the idea of fixed jump points was to get away
>>from the "fleet pops up" problem (at least, *I* see it as a problem)

I didn't say that, BTW.

>Well, I see it more as a tatical challenge than a problem.  But one
>could always just have a ship's energy signature preceed its exit
>by one comat round so that if it tries to come out on top of
>enemy forces, they will be ready....

IMTU ships coming out of jump make a distinctive gravitational pulse which
is fairly easy to pick up. By the time they have found any defending
ships/bases the defenders will know where they are. That means that even if
they pretend to be legitemate merchants until they shoot they'll only get
the one shot.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 12:42:14 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy

Sat, 23 May 1998 18:45:55, Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>>[OK, my goal here is to show that the piracy debate hinges on
>>a number of assumptions, and each person's answer to the question
>>depends on how they see those assumptions.  I think I've shown
>>that and I don't want to get into debating which way
>>those assumptions should go.  (anyone who was here for the
>>last debate will know why. :-)]

>Yes. And it's my assertion that the assumptions that make piracy possible
>do not hold within or near a stable Imperium.

It took a huge piracy flameware to show that each side couldn't
"prove" their assumptions where the right ones :-)

I think these assumptions are highly questionable and based mostly
on projecting our western, 20th century, expectationas and
sensabilities onto a completely different society.  But then
I can' prove that either.  :-)

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 13:08:43 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage

[I simply don't have time to spends weeks rearguing the piracy
thread.  I'm dropping out after this post....]

Mon, 25 May 1998 14:46:52 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>Well, the fact that you need a _proper_ identity and you can't have fake
>>ones (or it is too dangerous to do so) is an assumption, regardless of
>>whether transponders can be tampered with (which is debatable in itself).

>Oh, I'm perfectly willing to assume that you can do business using a fake
>ID and certainly fake transponders are canonical enough. What I regard as
>an assumption too unlikely to be valid is that you can do business
>without risking leaving behind clues to the identity of the ship.

Will it depends on what you mean by "risk".  Nobody is advocating
that piracy is risk free.  But the idea that you can't avoid leaving
behind enough clues as to make piracy too risky to try is, as we
established last time, based on how you see things as working.

>I do think that using a fake identity also runs the risk of getting you
>in trouble just for that, but that's not the big problem. The big problem
>is when you've managed somehow to actually capture an opportune target
>and the authorities begin looking for you in earnest. You'll then have
>the option of getting caught or getting rid of your ship. Your multi-
>million credit ship.

Well, if you recall, I think this is a reason why you might indeed
just take the cargo.  Though the value of a ship (which you might
just sell as parts) make make some feel risking Imperial attention
worthwhile.  Now you can assume the Imperium tends to capture people
that it sees as having committed high profile crimes, but that is
another assumption.

>Since "checking" a transponder consists of beaming it a signal and recording
>the response, I rather think you will be checked in most systems, though not
>necessarily in all of those with class E starports.

So that leave E ports as a place where piracy is easier...

>The point is that our would-be pirate can't be certain that he
>_won't _ be checked.

And, if you recall from the last flame war, some of us think that
a pirate doesn't come in committed to piracy.  If he gets checked
he can either simply give the identity he is doing and conduct
his normal trade.  Part of the problem I had in the last flame war
was the assumptions that piratacy would only occur a certain way
and if you stopped that, you stopped piracy.  This is at odds
with how I see crime as historically operating.  (If you stamp
out one method, a new one pops up).

>>(some people seem to assume that every system in the Imperium is like
>>O'Hare airport when I see many systems being a lot more like a dirt
>>refueling strip like those used in WWII as being more Traveller like.

>All it takes to check a transponder is a radio only slightly more
>sophisticated than those used during WWII.

It not the technology.  It the regulation, the record keeping,
the desire to keep track of every individual and ship that I
find at odds with the feel of Traveller.


>>>I haven't seen FF&S2 and I don't have the technical knowledge to judge,
>>>but am I right in assuming that that means realistic, real-world sensors?
>>
>>Depends on who you ask.  It doesn't mean what we can do today
>>and any extrapolation is a guess.

>Any extrapolation becomes the game truth.

Yeah, which means it is Game truth for games that use FF&S2, not
for any others.


____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 13:21:41 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Non-Jump FTL Travel

Fri, 22 May 1998 8:57:37 CDT, Russell Anderson Sinclair
<rsincla@acad.stedwards.edu>

>In a couple of recent posts, there has been a discussion of approaching
>the speed of light with conventional drives. My understanding is that
>mass increases as a body approaches the speed of light. Doesn't this mean
>that using regular drives (NOT JUMP DRIVES) to exceed C is impossible?

Yes.

From the point of view of the planet you are leaving from, the
mass of the ship increases (and time also changes on the ship,
and acceleration decreases as they approach the speed of light.

From the point of view of those on the ship (which is actually
not a valid physical reference frame because it is being
acclerated), they keep accelerating at a constant velocity but,
as the stars start moving toward/away from them at relativistic
speeds, the distances to them keep changing and they find that
can't get past the speed of light.
[This second one is IIRC, I haven't gone through this in
years....]

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 98 15:25:22 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Misjump?

On 05/25/98 at 02:18 PM,  Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> said:

>>Once again, this would depend upon finding rogue planetoids, brown dwarfs
>>and similar stuff.  Given that such things could only be found by
>>extremely careful observation, or misjumps it would make them valuable and
>>interesting choke-points. 

>Not at all. Finding them would be dead simple. You just aim your jump for
>the middle of the empty hex in question. If there is any dark world in the
>hex you'll end up next to it. If there is more than one you might have
>difficulty finding them all, but if there are any at all, you're
>guaranteed to find at least one. And if you don't find any, then jumps to
>deep space in that hex would be impossible now and forever.

Hans, this depends on how you have jump work.  IMTU, I require that the
ship be locked onto a mass in order to jump.  If the ship's jump sensor
isn't good enough to pick up and lock onto a mass in the "empty hex" (or
even a non-empty hex) it isn't going to jump there...it isn't going to jump
*anywhere*...it's going to sit right where it is for a week and emerge from
jump space.  That's for a normal, non-mis, jump.  Misjumps are a different
thing entirely.

I have three kinds of misjumps, minor, major and catastrophic.  A minor
misjump extends time in jump or changes position *slightly* so as to
inconvinence the crew.  Major misjumps range from long delays, through
damaged systems, to emerging in some random system..including the *very*
rare chance of an "empty" hex.  Catastrophic misjumps are everything a
major misjump is, plus destroyed equipment all the way up to the "ship
destroyed" possibility.

But, back to finding rouge GG's in an "empty" hex.  IMTU, this is a GM
option.  If the GM decides there should be something to find in an "empty
hex", so as to allow calibration points and deep space refueling stations,
the GM puts something there.  Finding an unknown rouge is a very difficult
task (IMTU) that requires a big passive sensor, a high Astronomy *and*
Sensor Ops skill, many weeks of study, several "calibration jumps" and
because you don't know if you are failing to find something because you are
failing, or there is nothing there to find, it's really a "mug's" game.  Of
course, inside the settled Imperium the scouts would have found just about
all the rouges that can be found, but on the borders and beyond they are
still rouges to be found.  And because *all* jump points change over time,
breaks (like the short night) would allow these rouges to get lost.

IMTU:
    To find a small GG at 1 parsec with Passive Sensors.
    Formidable (4d) < Passive Reflective Target + Sensor_Fac +
                      avg(Astronomy,Sensor) + Mods - Range_Fac
    
    A small GG would have a PRT of 16  (round(log(Area),0)
    One parsec has a range factor of 50 (round(log(km^5),0)-17)
    Let's say the Skill averages out at 12
    And,let's say the Sensor Factor is 13
    Mods include:  Deep Space -2, Reduced search area +2, Long Scan (1
                   hour * Range_Fac) +5, Very Long Scan (1 day *
                   Range_Fac) +10, Extremely long Scan (1 week *
                   Range_Fac) +15
    
So, 16+13+12-2+2+15-50 = 6, and that gives you a 1% chance per 45 weeks,
and it can be done, but should take years!

If you have a much larger PEMS (16), you raise your odds to 10%, but this
sensor is going to be too big to deploy on a ship and cost 5,000GCr, and it
should still take years!

Once you've *found* the object, you'll still want to perform one or more
"calibration jumps" to refine the location data before making an actual
jump.  A calibration jump is a regular jump up to, but not including, the
actual jump command and each one is going to require the expenditure of the
normal amount of jump mass/fuel and leave you stuck in j-space for a week. 
Of course, if you want to take your chances you can try the jump "cold" as
a Hopeless (6d) task against Astrogation Skill, and run the risk of a
catastrophic misjump if you fail.

I use a fixed 4d task, so I've had to modify the range factor from Bruce's
DSR a little, but I put it on an easy to remember 5 @ 30Kkm, 10 @ 300Kkm,
15 @ 3Mkm, 20 @ 30Mkm, etc...scale.  The numbers work with the FFS sensor
scale pretty well.  

Active Sensors, I modified to work *much* better than passives at short
ranges, but fall off rapidly as range increases. Actives use

 4d6< (round(log(Area)*AEMS_Fac/(Range_Fac/5),0)+Skills+Mods-Range_Fac

This is IMTU, of course.  ;->


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 15:38:59 -0500
From: "Jeremy Reaban" <frankpul@stlnet.com>
Subject: Re: New Classic Traveller Product

Just out of curiosity, how are the other products from Gamelords for CT?
(As the new one was planned to be one). I've seen them advertised for
fairly reasonable prices, and I love the work by the Keiths, but after
getting some CT items from Judges Guild (which are truly terrible), I'm
wary of stuff from other companies (though FASA stuff is as good as or
better than the best of the GDW produced items).

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #518
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 26 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 519



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Clasic traveller Adventure
Clasic traveller Adventure
Aliens
Re: "Letter of Marque" - Green Light! 
Re: Is the 100-diameter limit planetary or solar?
Re: Is the 100-diameter limit planetary or solar?
Re: "Letter of Marque" - Green Light!
Re: Piracy
Re: "Letter of Marque" - Green Light!
GDW stuff, Humour
Re: Escort tonnage
Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product
Re: "Letter of Marque" - Green Light!
Re: "Letter of Marque" - Green Light! 
Re: Is the 100-diameter limit planetary or solar?
Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product
Re: Jumping at Lagrange points / Book recommendation
Re: GDW stuff, Humour
Re: horror Traveller adventures
Finding rogue GGs under Eris' sensor rules
"Letter of Marque" - Order Now!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 21:41:54 +0100
From: "CHARLES WALKER" <cnw@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Clasic traveller Adventure

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 22:15:26 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product

>Subject: Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product

...

>> I am in the midst of talks with Andrew Keith about the possible release of
>> his Classic Traveller book "Letter of Marque"=20

...

>Please add my name to the list of prospective buyers for the above.
>Thank you.

>

Add my name to the list as well,

Nick Walker.


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<P>Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 22:15:26 -0700</P>
<P>From: <A =
href=3D"mailto:shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca">shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca</A>=20
(Steven Hudson)</P>
<P>Subject: Re: New &quot;Classic&quot; Traveller Product</P>
<P>&gt;Subject: Re: New &quot;Classic&quot; Traveller Product</P>
<P>...</P>
<P>&gt;&gt; I am in the midst of talks with Andrew Keith about the =
possible=20
release of</P>
<P>&gt;&gt; his Classic Traveller book &quot;Letter of Marque&quot; </P>
<P>...</P>
<P>&gt;Please add my name to the list of prospective buyers for the =
above.</P>
<P>&gt;Thank you.</P>
<P>&gt;</P>
<P>Add my name to the list as well,</P>
<P>Nick Walker.</P></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 21:41:54 +0100
From: "CHARLES WALKER" <cnw@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Clasic traveller Adventure

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 22:15:26 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product

>Subject: Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product

...

>> I am in the midst of talks with Andrew Keith about the possible release of
>> his Classic Traveller book "Letter of Marque"=20

...

>Please add my name to the list of prospective buyers for the above.
>Thank you.
>

Add my name to the list as well,

Nick Walker.


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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">
<P>Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 22:15:26 -0700</P>
<P>From: <A =
href=3D"mailto:shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca">shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca</A>=20
(Steven Hudson)</P>
<P>Subject: Re: New &quot;Classic&quot; Traveller Product</P>
<P>&gt;Subject: Re: New &quot;Classic&quot; Traveller Product</P>
<P>...</P>
<P>&gt;&gt; I am in the midst of talks with Andrew Keith about the =
possible=20
release of</P>
<P>&gt;&gt; his Classic Traveller book &quot;Letter of Marque&quot; </P>
<P>...</P>
<P>&gt;Please add my name to the list of prospective buyers for the =
above.</P>
<P>&gt;Thank you.</P>
<P>&gt;</P>
<P>Add my name to the list as well,</P>
<P>Nick Walker.</P></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BD8825.EFACF920--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 17:09:31 -0400
From: Andy Slack <AndySlack@compuserve.com>
Subject: Aliens

If anyone is interested, my writeup of the Staurni is now online at:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/AndySlack/wd57.htm

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 17:21:55 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: "Letter of Marque" - Green Light! 

I would certainly be willing to pay the additional price for Andrew's
autograph, Paul. Please let us all know when and where we should send
payment. I'd be willing to pre-pay if it would help in any way to defray
your costs.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, May 25, 1998 2:37 PM
Subject: "Letter of Marque" - Green Light!



>How many of you would be willing to pay an additional $3 to have your copy
>autographed by Andrew Keith himself? This extra thee bucks would go
directly
>to Andrew, and would help make up in a small way for the rather modest
>amount I was able to pay him for the manuscript.
>
>Stay tuned for further posts later this week.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 16:08:54 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Is the 100-diameter limit planetary or solar?

The Sun has a diameter of 864,000 miles.  100 diameters is 86.4 million
miles, or .93AU.
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 17:53:22 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Is the 100-diameter limit planetary or solar?

 
> The Sun has a diameter of 864,000 miles.  100 diameters is 86.4 million
> miles, or .93AU.
 

Is it planetary or solar?

Yes.

Either. So if you were on Mercury, you'd have to drive out a ways
sublight to jump. There is a good way to make laces for pirates--a
system where there is a valuable place to go that takes several days
at a couple gs to get to the jump point.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 16:51:32 -0700
From: "Brannon \"Ben\" Boren" <brannonb@blarg.net>
Subject: Re: "Letter of Marque" - Green Light!

Sanders wrote:
> How many of you would be willing to pay an additional $3 to have your copy
> autographed by Andrew Keith himself? This extra thee bucks would go directly
> to Andrew, and would help make up in a small way for the rather modest
> amount I was able to pay him for the manuscript.

As a fellow writer in the rpg industry, I sympathize with the difficulty in
getting paid for your work.  We freelancers are lucky if the damn game
companies can stay in business long enough to publish what they've
contracted us for, and luckier still if they stay in business long enough
to pay us!

I consider it an extra $3 well spent, going to the creator and not some
bloodsucking corporation.  (Standard writer's compensation is 2-3% of
retail)

Ben

- --
Brannon "Ben" Boren
brannonb@blarg.net
http://www.mog.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 16:06:32 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy

...
>>Yes. And it's my assertion that the assumptions that make piracy possible
>>do not hold within or near a stable Imperium.
>
>It took a huge piracy flameware to show that each side couldn't
>"prove" their assumptions where the right ones :-)

  Actually, it looked awfully as though the "anti-'s" were simply
facing a refusal to consider the facts presented.

>I think these assumptions are highly questionable and based mostly
>on projecting our western, 20th century, expectationas and
>sensabilities onto a completely different society.  But then
>I can' prove that either.  :-)

  As pointed out previously, our "Western, 20th century" society
is prone to remarkably under-regulating given its' capability for
doing so, and that historically states and empires have typically
shown a vast concern for security and observation/regulation of
both their territory and their economic extensions.

  It might be helpful if you proposed your own guidelines for the
control, protection, and regulation within the circa 1100 Imperium
of civil traffic of all sorts, giving attention to the division
between high-traffic and low-traffic systems.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 20:19:30 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: "Letter of Marque" - Green Light!

I'll spend the extra three dollars. What will the projected final cost be?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 16:26:42 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: GDW stuff, Humour

 Titan Games On-Line (www.titan-games.com) has a whole bunch of
used GDW stuff (TNE in particular) recently arrived.

Is it just me, or is the returned discussion of piracy occurring
simultaneously with the possible release of the "Letter of Marque"
CT piracy supplement just a little too ironic?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 16:54:18 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage

...
>>Oh, I'm perfectly willing to assume that you can do business using a fake
>>ID and certainly fake transponders are canonical enough. What I regard as
>>an assumption too unlikely to be valid is that you can do business
>>without risking leaving behind clues to the identity of the ship.
>
>Will it depends on what you mean by "risk".  Nobody is advocating
>that piracy is risk free.  But the idea that you can't avoid leaving
>behind enough clues as to make piracy too risky to try is, as we
>established last time, based on how you see things as working.

  So it's not at all unlikely (at least IYTU) that a ship can avoid
leaving any authentic ID info at a stop, or that any correlation of
accumulated data will occur?

>>I do think that using a fake identity also runs the risk of getting you
>>in trouble just for that, but that's not the big problem. The big problem
>>is when you've managed somehow to actually capture an opportune target
>>and the authorities begin looking for you in earnest. You'll then have
>>the option of getting caught or getting rid of your ship. Your multi-
>>million credit ship.
>
>Well, if you recall, I think this is a reason why you might indeed
>just take the cargo.  Though the value of a ship (which you might
>just sell as parts) make make some feel risking Imperial attention

  I believe the previous post refers to the threat of losing your own
ship if you get caught on a faked ID; Hans' would know for sure.

>worthwhile.  Now you can assume the Imperium tends to capture people
>that it sees as having committed high profile crimes, but that is
>another assumption.

  Specifically, that they make a serious effort to do so, at least.
Piracy (and probably hijacking, depending on context, I guess) does
seem to be a serious strike against a state of the nature of the
Imperium; this could also make such an act be deemed to be inherently
political, which it would in truth be if a polity were ofering a
strategic haven to an organized pirate band.

...
>So that leave E ports as a place where piracy is easier...

In addition to (IMHO) a lot of low-traffic/low-pop systems. I believe
that in certain backgrounds this is referred to as "chicken-stealing",
but even a 50-year old Free Trader is one awfully fat chicken, assuming
that you get more than single digit percentages of its' value (which
I do; 15-50% of value for ship or cargo could be reasonable depending
on circumstances, IMO).

...
>his normal trade.  Part of the problem I had in the last flame war
>was the assumptions that piratacy would only occur a certain way
>and if you stopped that, you stopped piracy.  This is at odds
>with how I see crime as historically operating.  (If you stamp
>out one method, a new one pops up).

  Strangely enough, I don't recall seeing the assumption that piracy
would occur only one way. I did get the impression that some people
felt that the Imperium would be physically unable and/or unwilling
to do much of anything about its' internal security situation. The
latter I concluded at least had some shred of believability.

  As it happens, I'm a proponent of the possibility of casual, one-off
piracy being conducted by ethically challenged, desperate merchants.

...
>It not the technology.  It the regulation, the record keeping,
>the desire to keep track of every individual and ship that I
>find at odds with the feel of Traveller.

  The implications of not doing so are so drastic that the
alternative simply seems unlikely.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson
  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 20:51:58 EDT
From: DustyLV769 <DustyLV769@aol.com>
Subject: Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product

In a message dated 5/22/98 15:09:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
timmon@primenet.com writes:

<< My question to the list is this - How many of you would be interested in
buying this 'Classic Traveller' era book?  >>

You could definately put me down for a copy!

DustyLV769@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 21:00:30 EDT
From: DustyLV769 <DustyLV769@aol.com>
Subject: Re: "Letter of Marque" - Green Light!

In a message dated 5/25/98 11:21:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
timmon@primenet.com writes:

<< How many of you would be willing to pay an additional $3 to have your copy
 autographed by Andrew Keith himself?  >>

I certainly will pay the extra money...just let me know how much total, and
where to send it!

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 20:37:21 -0400
From: "Ed Leland" <eleland@gte.net>
Subject: Re: "Letter of Marque" - Green Light! 

Paul-
    Count me in for a signed copy.  Let me know where to send the check!  :)

Ed Leland
eleland@gte.net

- -----Original Message-----
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, 25 May, 1998 14:22
Subject: "Letter of Marque" - Green Light!


>Hello fellow TML'ers....it's Memorial Day and I am off to the lake for a
>picnic and some boating fun...but I just wanted to let everyone know the
>status of the "Letter of Marque" project.
>
>Marc has agreed...
>Andrew has agreed...
>I've recieved email from 70 TML'ers expressing an interest in purchasing
the
>LOM manuscript...
>
>So...expect "Letter of Marque" to be available in roughly 2-3 weeks! :)
>
>How many of you would be willing to pay an additional $3 to have your copy
>autographed by Andrew Keith himself? This extra thee bucks would go
directly
>to Andrew, and would help make up in a small way for the rather modest
>amount I was able to pay him for the manuscript.
>
>Stay tuned for further posts later this week.
>
>
>L8r,
>Paul Sanders
>timmon@primenet.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 18:23:42 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Is the 100-diameter limit planetary or solar?

At 05:53 PM 5/25/98 -0600, you wrote:

>Either. So if you were on Mercury, you'd have to drive out a ways
>sublight to jump. There is a good way to make laces for pirates--a
>system where there is a valuable place to go that takes several days
>at a couple gs to get to the jump point.

One interesting development in the Lunion projuect is a system where the
solar jump line is out beyond the mainworld by a large factor.  There is a
world reasonably close (a little frozen iceball), and I've decided that the
starport is in orbit there, rather than at the system mainworld.

This gives me an excuse for a huge Babylon-type station and massive
in-system frieghters.  Also lets me get odd with the mainworld culture.
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry     dberry@hooked.net |
|     http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
|----------------------------------------|
| "The best tank terrain is that without |
|  anti-tank weapons."                   |
|            -Russian Military Doctrine  |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 22:06:57 -0400
From: "Scott Spieker" <scspieker@ncweb.com>
Subject: Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product

I would purchase a copy also.  What is the estimated retail price?

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 22:18:36 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumping at Lagrange points / Book recommendation

SD Mooney wrote:

> Anyway, to the point: In part of the novel, a ship avoids the gravitational
> field limit by jumping at a Lagrange point. Do you think that this is
> feasible in Traveller. I can't see anything that would stop this - in the
> book it is described as a very risky manuever as there is only a small
> region where it is safe.

It would not work because almost as soon as you jump, you travel out of the
lagrange point and thus precipitate out of  jump.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 20:21:21 -0600
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: GDW stuff, Humour

At 04:26 PM 5/25/98 -0700, you wrote:
>  Is it just me, or is the returned discussion of piracy occurring
>simultaneously with the possible release of the "Letter of Marque"
>CT piracy supplement just a little too ironic?

Heh..you noticed that as well? :)

Actually, I've had access to the "Letter of Marque" manuscript for about
three years - ever since the days I was contributing editor for The
Traveller Chronicle. In fact, one of the reasons Kevin and I parted paths
was over our differing views regarding the publication of LOM in the
Chronicle (in a serialized format of course). Considering the heavy activity
in the Piracy thread for the last nine months or so here on the TML, I
figured this might be a good time to try and make LOM available to the TML
as a whole.

I'm sure there are facets of LOM that will not sit well with either factions
of the Piracy thread, as it does cover many aspects of the thread that have
been, in my opinion, debated to death. I hope however that everyone enjoys
Andrew Keiths' spin on the topic, and finds it as useful as I have.


L8r,
Paul Sanders
timmon@primenet.com 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 22:48:13 -0500
From: eldwyn@juno.com
Subject: Re: horror Traveller adventures

>At 11:36 AM 21/05/98 -0700, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>>I've done one successful horror adventure in Traveller.  It involved 
>the
>>Annic Nova.  

I played one using the Annic Nova, too. This was based on the then
popular *Alien* movie, the classic example of sci-fi horror. My players
found the abandoned ship, boarded, and found a number of mysteries and
spooky sounds. The room that had been flamed really concerned them, as
well as the banging on the hull. ;->

What made it really satisfying, though, after the game they commented on
how much it felt like *Alien*. (I didn't tell them where I got the ideas,
of course.)
MarioC

- --I consider being sick one of the great blessings in life,
  provided one is not too sick, and one does not have to work until one
is better....


_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 23:36:30
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Finding rogue GGs under Eris' sensor rules

>IMTU:
>    To find a small GG at 1 parsec with Passive Sensors.
>    Formidable (4d) < Passive Reflective Target + Sensor_Fac +
>                      avg(Astronomy,Sensor) + Mods - Range_Fac
>    
>    A small GG would have a PRT of 16  (round(log(Area),0)
>    One parsec has a range factor of 50 (round(log(km^5),0)-17)
>    Let's say the Skill averages out at 12
>    And,let's say the Sensor Factor is 13
>    Mods include:  Deep Space -2, Reduced search area +2, Long Scan (1
>                   hour * Range_Fac) +5, Very Long Scan (1 day *
>                   Range_Fac) +10, Extremely long Scan (1 week *
>                   Range_Fac) +15
>    
>So, 16+13+12-2+2+15-50 = 6, and that gives you a 1% chance per 45 weeks,
>and it can be done, but should take years!
>

>If you have a much larger PEMS (16), you raise your odds to 10%, but this
>sensor is going to be too big to deploy on a ship and cost 5,000GCr, and it
>should still take years!
>

Sensor fac 14 (MCr500 worth ... about a small destroyer) and crew fac 14
(stat 10 skill 4 in T4) gets you 9 on 4 dice.

If we have a Scout Task Force of 10 ships trying this (assume sensors are
50% of total ship cost ... task force therefore costs about 10
gigacredits), then we have 10 attempts per week. This puts the gas giants
on the wrong side of a probability curve (10 ships * 8 weeks = 80 attempts
at a 9 on 4 dice).

>Once you've *found* the object, you'll still want to perform one or more
>"calibration jumps" to refine the location data before making an actual
>jump.  A calibration jump is a regular jump up to, but not including, the
>actual jump command and each one is going to require the expenditure of the
>normal amount of jump mass/fuel and leave you stuck in j-space for a week. 
>Of course, if you want to take your chances you can try the jump "cold" as
>a Hopeless (6d) task against Astrogation Skill, and run the risk of a
>catastrophic misjump if you fail.

This is what essentially disposable 100 dton Scout/Couriers are for. Once
you've found your rougue gas giant, we have a calibration point with
unlimited refueling capability - find one of those through a rift, and you
have repaid your 10 gigacredit investment.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 21:59:46 -0600
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: "Letter of Marque" - Order Now!

I'm now taking orders for Andrew Keiths' "Letter of Marque".

PRICE -

Regular copies:
North America - $15.00 
Orders outside North America - $16.00 
(I expect to ship these orders by June 15th.)

Andrew Keith autographed copies:
North America - $18.00
Orders outside North America are $19.00 
(I expect to ship autographed orders no later than June 20th.)

Please note: 
I will only be accepting orders for autographed copies until June 10th. 

*** All Prices Include Postage ***

Please send your payment to me at the following address:

Paul Sanders
1316 W. 2nd Ave.
Apache Junction, AZ 85220
USA



AVAILABILITY - 

This is a limited edition print run, and is *only* being sold over the TML.
I appreciate the many suggestions for making LOM commercially available, but
I am off to Europe in 8 weeks, and haven't the time (or frankly, the
inclination) to make this available to a wider audiance. The total print run
is 100 copies - 80 of which will be available from me. The other 20 copies
go to Marc, and when I sale out (and judging from the response, I will),
then your only recourse will be to contact him and see if he might be
willing to part with any of his copies. 

If you like LOM and want to see more, then lobby Marc and Loren for more,
who knows, Andrew or Bill Keith just might be willing re-enter the Traveller
universe (well - one can always dream :)


TO RECAP - 

"Letter of Marque" was written in 1984 by Andrew Keith and was never
published (Gamelords went bust just as LOM was to be sent to GDW for
approval). It was to have been a 'boxed' supplement for Traveller - similar
in size and scope to "Tarsus" or "Beltstrike" for example. 

This TML edition is a reproduction of the original 80 page typeset
*manuscript* (a total of 160 pages of material, in a spiral-bound, plastic
cover format). There are no illustrations folks - you have been warned ;)
There are however scads of background, rules, design tables, adventure
scenarios, several starship deckplans, and a stellar map of The Carrillian
Assembly from the Reavers' Deep Sector. 

Note: The deckplans and map are hand-drawn and rather crude (this is a
manuscript afterall) - I am in the process of rendering these into a more
presentable format, and will include my efforts as an insert to the finished
product, so that they will in no way detract from the 'original' nature of
this reproduction.


MISC - 

I am posting this announcement to the TML and each of the individuals who
responded to my initial post of last week, so please excuse the duplicate
copy many of you will recieve.


Ok...have I covered everything? I hope so, if not, email me :)

L8r,
Paul Sanders
timmon@primenet.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #519
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 26 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 520



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Finding rogue GGs under Eris' sensor rules
Re: Memorial Day 
Re: GDW stuff, Humour
Re: Aliens 
Re: Is the 100-diameter limit planetary or solar? 
Re: Piracy
Re: GDW stuff, Humour
Re: Months in Traveller
Re: Misjumps?
"Letters of Marque" - green light!
Berthing Costs (long)
Re: Berthing Costs (long)
Re: Jumping at Lagrange points / Book recommendation
Transponders, and information transfer
Off Topic Space 1889
Re: Memorial Day 
Re: Jumping at Lagrange points / Book recommendation
Re: Transponders, and information transfer
Re: Memorial Day 
Re: Is the 100-diameter limit planetary or solar? 
"Weather" in space
Re: Letter of Marque
Re: Escort tonnage

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 98 00:08:17 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Finding rogue GGs under Eris' sensor rules

On 05/25/98 at 11:36 PM,  Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> said:

>If we have a Scout Task Force of 10 ships trying this (assume sensors are
>50% of total ship cost ... task force therefore costs about 10
>gigacredits), then we have 10 attempts per week. This puts the gas giants
>on the wrong side of a probability curve (10 ships * 8 weeks = 80 attempts
>at a 9 on 4 dice).

In a well-settled area, like the Imperium just about anything out there
should have been already found, that's true.  Which is why empty hexes are
empty.  ;->

It's on the fringes of settled areas, and beyond where rouge GG's are still
being looked for.  Finding one could make or break a scenario.

I'm not completely tied to the modifiers, the penalty for being in deep
space should probably be higher, and I didn't take emitted IR into account. 
So, I've still got some tinkering to do.  IAC, what I'm trying to do is
combine things about both Bruce's system and the GURPS Sensor system with a
task system *similar* to T4's.


Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 02:06:58 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Memorial Day 

> Thank you vetrans, for your service and sacrifice.

You're welcome.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 22:17:14 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: GDW stuff, Humour

>>  Is it just me, or is the returned discussion of piracy occurring
>>simultaneously with the possible release of the "Letter of Marque"
>>CT piracy supplement just a little too ironic?
>
>Heh..you noticed that as well? :)
...
>I'm sure there are facets of LOM that will not sit well with either factions
>of the Piracy thread, as it does cover many aspects of the thread that have
>been, in my opinion, debated to death. I hope however that everyone enjoys
>Andrew Keiths' spin on the topic, and finds it as useful as I have.

  Screw factions; I'm familiar with enough of his previous works to be
satisfied that their material will make sense. I'm certainly not going
to get bent out of shape if the fuel tankage for an ATV isn't listed
or if post-CT canon isn't seamlessly matched.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 02:13:48 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Aliens 

> If anyone is interested, my writeup of the Staurni is now online at:
> 
> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/AndySlack/wd57.htm

That's been up for a couple weeks already, Andy.  Good stuff, btw...

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 02:18:38 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Is the 100-diameter limit planetary or solar? 

> One interesting development in the Lunion projuect is a system where the
> solar jump line is out beyond the mainworld by a large factor.  There is a
> world reasonably close (a little frozen iceball), and I've decided that the
> starport is in orbit there, rather than at the system mainworld.

Humongous red giant as a primary?
 
> This gives me an excuse for a huge Babylon-type station and massive
> in-system frieghters.  Also lets me get odd with the mainworld culture.

Interesting.

BTW, highly recommended for refs who 'roll their own' stuff to fold in with 
canon material is a guy named David Drake.  Book out called 'The Voyage', just 
got thru rereading it.  Some interesting plot ideas there...

Keven
- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 00:41:07 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy

Mon, 25 May 1998 16:06:32 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>It took a huge piracy flameware to show that each side couldn't
>>"prove" their assumptions where the right ones :-)

>  Actually, it looked awfully as though the "anti-'s" were simply
>facing a refusal to consider the facts presented.

Well, assuming "antis" means those against piracy being
illegal, I saw a lot more assumptions than I ever saw
of "facts".

>>I think these assumptions are highly questionable and based mostly
>>on projecting our western, 20th century, expectationas and
>>sensabilities onto a completely different society.  But then
>>I can' prove that either.  :-)

>  As pointed out previously, our "Western, 20th century" society
>is prone to remarkably under-regulating given its' capability for
>doing so, and that historically states and empires have typically
>shown a vast concern for security and observation/regulation of
>both their territory and their economic extensions.

Well, to begin with, _most_ societies aren't regulated to their
capability (even the Soviet Union wasn't).  As far as societies
goes, the US may not be the most regulated in history, but
it is more regulated than a lot and certainly doesn't qualify
as the sort of laisse faire society that I see the Imperium as
being.  Secondly, the concern states show for their security is
to keep it within certain levels.  Very few states will go to
any length to stamp out a crime that is already rare.

>  It might be helpful if you proposed your own guidelines for the
>control, protection, and regulation within the circa 1100 Imperium
>of civil traffic of all sorts, giving attention to the division
>between high-traffic and low-traffic systems.

Well, as I keep saying, you can come up with different ones
depending on your assumptions.  I can't prove that the Imperium
would be a certain way any more than other can prove that
it would regulated to the point that piracy wouldn't exist.

I personally would punt transponders.
I really don't see much interest in them.  If the Imperium
wants to know what ship you are, they ask.  (If you don't
answer, then they get suspisios).  They don't need
to have the kind of moment to moment tracking  that
O'Hare airport has (except in places like Regina where you would
probably be required to link up your computer with air control
to get within maybe 50 miles of the port, maybe a bit more).

Inspections for, customs, smuggling, would be done by local
officials (they get the revenues) and would be based on
local law levels.  The Imperium doesn't pay a lot of intention
to individuals, simply not condsidering them worth bother
with on a routine basis.  They don't routinely inspect ships
for nukes, bioweapons, etc.  Instead they control these
things at the source (which makes a lot more sense).

Space patrols would be based on the amount of comercial activity,
how much a problem piracy has been, the odds of enemy activity,
etc.  Regina has a lot of patrols.  A class E starport off
of the main line might see a patrol vessel now and then.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 00:50:01 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GDW stuff, Humour

Mon, 25 May 1998 20:21:21 -0600, Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
>I'm sure there are facets of LOM that will not sit well with either factions
>of the Piracy thread

Well, since I've only ever contended that piracy depends on
assumptions that you use to set up your universe and can't
be proven either way, I don't really have much a problem
regardless what it says.  :-)


____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 23:49:31 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Months in Traveller

[forwarded message from a TMl member who can not post]

> The 12 monthly payments per year are 12 of the 13 on the canon        > calender (See MT Ref's Companion). Rather than make a payment while in > for annual maintenance, no payment is due that month, as if it were,  > it makes small shipping far less economical. Thus 13 months, 12       > payments per year, and the ability to actually afford to take the time > for annual maintenance and crew leaves!

> William F. Hostman
> <Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
> <Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
> IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls-  > kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

Will refers to the MT Referees Manual which states: (page 42)

"Within each year, the Imperial dating system uses a modified Julian
system which consecutively umbers the days of the year from 001 to 365. 
Weeks of 7 days and months of 28 days are used to indicate periods of
time, but they are not named and are not used to indicate dates."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 09:48:17 +0100
From: "Buston, John" <john.buston@eds.com>
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

>>100 diameters from a neutron star or a black hole could be entertaining

>I believe the word you intended was "fatal".

I thought the pull would be rather large, but I wasn't prepared for the
figures I got when I did the sums. 

1    SM white dwarf  - earth size - gravity at 100 D around 8G
1.4 SM neutron star - 20 km D   - gravity at 100 D around 5 million G
3    SM black hole - 6 km D       - gravity at 100 D around 100 million
G

SM = Solar Mass = mass of our sun

>Note that 100 times the *cube* root of the mass gives *exactly* the
>figures used in Traveller [for standard density planets]

I like it. We are considering the underlying topology of jump space, as
well as the overlying topology of real space. This simple formula puts
the interface between jump space and real space on a pseudo scientific
level, and gives us a mathematical argument for the minimum jump.

>BTW, this means that for objects *denser* than earth, the "100
>diameter" limit is actually *farther* out, while for object less dense
>(typical GG, typical stars) it's closer in. And of course for the
>ridiculously dense object like white dwarfs, neutron stars, and black
>holes, it's *way* out there. 

We could also keep the 100 diameter limits for less dense objects.
Arguing that the less well defined a point mass is, the further you want
to be from it before jumping. As another poster suggested, assume that
jump mathematics is based on point masses (the source & target masses
and the ship) - the less well defined the point, the worst the margin of
error.

Obtrav: If you base your jump mathematics on point masses, then well
defined point masses (white dwarfs, neutron stars, black holes) would be
strategic  militarily. A well defined point at one or both ends of the
jump would reduce your margin of error and allow much more precise
jumps, or long jumps, or reduce time in jump, or reduce misjumps, or
perhaps allow you to jump closer than 100 diameters. You would also
expect leading edge jump research to be carried out in a system with one
of these objects. They would not be shown on civilian charts, though
maybe those with Navy or Research careers may have visited one.

>Since they are the rate at which the force of gravity changes,
>that means that rather than how *deep* in a gravity well you are, jump
>drive depends on the *slope* of the well. In other words, how "curved"
>space is. It works better in "flatter" space. 

This is only a relative measure of flatness (relative to the mass being
jumped from) not an absolute measure. But I can go with that.

>BTW, another argument would be that we are likely *way* inside the
>galaxy's "100 diameter limit" calculated your way. :-)

I calculated *only* 35 light years for the same gravitational intensity,
and that only if all the galactic mass inside the sun was a point
source.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 06:54:28 -0400
From: Andy Slack <AndySlack@compuserve.com>
Subject: "Letters of Marque" - green light!

Message text written by INTERNET:traveller@mpgn.com
>How many of you would be willing to pay an additional $3 to have your copy
autographed by Andrew Keith himself? This extra thee bucks would go
directly
to Andrew, and would help make up in a small way for the rather modest
amount I was able to pay him for the manuscript.
<

Me for one. I want to encourage him to write more!
Andy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 06:54:31 -0400
From: Andy Slack <AndySlack@compuserve.com>
Subject: Berthing Costs (long)

Nice work, Christopher - fascinating read.
Andy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 00:25:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Berthing Costs (long)

In mail you write:

> Dockage are those fees that pertain to the ships themselves. Many fees
> are based on the size of the ship, measured in Length Over All (LOA):

<snip>

> Notice that these are not linear - there are breakpoints, which 
> correspond to the lengths of the various wharves.  The larger a ship
> is, the fewer wharves it can actually use.

I'd say that similar factors apply at ports. The bigger the ship, the
fewer berths there are that it's likely to fit. Though I also expect
that there will be a reluctance to place ships that are a *lot* smaller
than what the berth was intended for as well. 

I also expect that there will be differences between highport and
downport. And for downport, differences between the 4 "types" of ship:
HTHL (horizontal takeoff, horizontal landing) (like an airplane)
HTVL (unlikely to be at all common)
VTHL (like the Space Shuttle)
VTVL (Like the DC-X)

Frankly, I expect ships to be mostly VTVL and HTVL, with perhaps some
VTHL. HTVL has *no* advantages, and a lot of disadvantages. But I
wouldn't be surprised if some Vargr decided to build one just to be
different. And VTHL are likely to be military, as the prime reason for
VT is to use boosters and get up *fast*. 

HTHL will be restricted to smaller ships (above a certain size landing
gear gets ugly). So treat them more like airports. 

VTVL will have to be scaled by stern footprint or some such. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 00:40:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jumping at Lagrange points / Book recommendation

In mail you write:

> SD Mooney wrote:
>
>> Anyway, to the point: In part of the novel, a ship avoids the gravitational
>> field limit by jumping at a Lagrange point. Do you think that this is
>> feasible in Traveller. I can't see anything that would stop this - in the
>> book it is described as a very risky manuever as there is only a small
>> region where it is safe.
>
> It would not work because almost as soon as you jump, you travel out of the
> lagrange point and thus precipitate out of  jump.

More to the point, the L4 and L5 points are *not* "flat" spacetime.
They are actually potential "wells". That's why things tend to stay
there. The L1, L2, and L3 points are "peaks" and thus things can only
stay there if they do a good job of balancing. Even so, they aren't
"flat" either.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 22:49:20 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Transponders, and information transfer

"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> I personally would punt transponders.
> I really don't see much interest in them.  If the Imperium
> wants to know what ship you are, they ask.  (If you don't
> answer, then they get suspisios).  
> They don't need
> to have the kind of moment to moment tracking  that
> O'Hare airport has (except in places like Regina where you would
> probably be required to link up your computer with air control
> to get within maybe 50 miles of the port, maybe a bit more).

IMTU the major use of Transponders is to track things that
are beyond your radar range. ID is useful, but if you show
up in a system with the same transponder code as someone
else in system, you just change your Transponder number. 
That way you don't need to have a empire wide system for 
assigning numbers and checking that they're never tampered 
with, and shifting the data around [1] so that everyone is up 
to date with which transponder numbers belong to whom[2].

What it also  means is that you don't need super-dooper
high tech Sensors to track people well enough to be Space
Traffic control. You just need enough to trigger the
transponders, which at least doubles your sensor range to
someone with a transponder, and usually tells you things
about their position, course and velocity, so that you 
don't need to maintain a skinpaint to figure that out.

In a military situation, transponders help the computers 
running your battle keep track of all the vessels, rather 
than needing to figure out all the reflected signatures, 
and talk to them to figure out who is who. This makes the 
fog of war considerably reduced. The admiral can figure out 
who is heading where, and what their status is - probably 
including missile load-outs and damage levels.

Usually your military transponders are programmed to only 
respond to an appropriate code, so they don't broadcast 
their position to everyone. They can be switched off, 
though this isn't necessarily a good idea in an automated 
environment which shoots at things that don't respond to a 
"Friend or Foe" query.
 
Does that sound unreasonable?

Steve


[1] One of the big problems that I think people have 
ignored in the Piracy debate (what little I have seen of 
it) is the information lag. just keeping track of which 
ships belong to which people seems to me to be a 
hideous problem, especially considering that 
you can't be sure which set of information is the most up 
to date.  "Here is an change of owner notice for Ship 
"Example", but the record we have for that ship doesn't list either 
party as the owner, so we are missing at least one other 
change of ownership notice."

Just thinking about synchonising data across a minimum 1 
week lag, when the record could have been altered at each 
end hurts my head. I imagine there may be a central record 
office for the ship (Its "Planet of registry" or PoR) which holds 
the master record, and change of ownership doesn't take 
legal effect until the PoR is informed. So you submit a 
change of ownership on one planet, and travel to another, 
where until the information travels to the PoR and then is 
rebroadcast to all the other planets that might be 
interested...
"No really, I bought it off the original owner a couple of 
weeks ago, I'm sure the datawork will come through in a 
couple of months or so. Please don't hold me here - I gotta 
mortgage to pay![3]" 

I can't imagine the cops holding everyone 
whose details didn't match their records - their records
just can't be completely up to date, and bankrupting people
waiting for the information lag won't make you popular.


[2] Hey, I've got transponder # 475 698 044 233
Does that mean there are 475 billion ships out there?

[3]Just keeping track of your mortgage payments could be
difficult, "No really mister Bounty hunter, here are our
receipts - we paid on this planet, and that planet and the
other planet, I can't understand why the records haven't got
to you yet..."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 08:00:15 -0400
From: "Alan M. Nuss" <amnuss@earthlink.net>
Subject: Off Topic Space 1889

A friend told me that he was told at a gamming con that someone has the
picked up the
licence for GDW's Space:1889.  Does anyone know if this is true and if
so, who has
the licence.

Alan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 03:50:41 -0700
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Memorial Day 

> > Thank you vetrans, for your service and sacrifice.
> You're welcome.
> Keven

Hey, I needed to hear that.

Legate, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 15:47:23 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Jumping at Lagrange points / Book recommendation

>It would not work because almost as soon as you jump, you travel out of the
>lagrange point and thus precipitate out of  jump.

Why is it that everybody seem to assume that you actually travel the
distance while in j-space? As jumps take 1 week no matter the distance you
jump I'd say that when the ship jumps it no longer interact with our
universe and could therefore very well jump from a to b going through a
star with no worries.

You jump, leave this universe, have a boring week, exits at a new place
hopefully your destination, done.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 09:49:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael and MJ Houghton <herveus@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Transponders, and information transfer

Howdy!

Steve Rennell wrote:
> "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> > I personally would punt transponders.
> > I really don't see much interest in them.  If the Imperium
> > wants to know what ship you are, they ask.  (If you don't
> > answer, then they get suspisios).  
> > They don't need
> > to have the kind of moment to moment tracking  that
> > O'Hare airport has (except in places like Regina where you would
> > probably be required to link up your computer with air control
> > to get within maybe 50 miles of the port, maybe a bit more).
> 
> IMTU the major use of Transponders is to track things that
> are beyond your radar range. ID is useful, but if you show
[synopsis of transponder usage smipped]

Steve's discussion considers the transponders to be roughly
equivalent to the transponders used in aviation today. Current
transponders have several operating modes, from simply squawking
a four digit code to full IFF. Civilian models offer three
modes (IIRC), code only (Mode A), code plus altitude (Mode C),
and code plus altitude plus some other information useful to ATC
(Mode S). Mode C is required when operating in certain controlled
airspace, usually in the vicinity of controlled airports.

When under Air Traffic Control, a discrete code is assigned to
allow the controllers to identify you. In addition, there is an
IDENT button, which causes extra crud to be returned. This causes
your blip on the controller's scope to be emphasized. Controllers
will use this to pick you out of traffic, or to quickly locate you
on a busy scope. Traffic operating under its own navigation without
using ATC services uses a common code (1200) that tags them as
"generic" traffic.

I can see a straightforward extension of this model to include
some additional the transponder can return. This could include a
serial number and other identifying information, some of which
could be difficult to tamper with. 

IMTU, I don't expect to get too wrapped up in these matters, unless
the players push me there. Certainly, I would expect attempts to
spoof one's identity through the transponder would be generally
frowned upon by the authorities that give a damn. Naturally, the
consequences of getting caught (and the probability of getting
caught) are likely to be wildly variable from system to system.
> 
[interesting list of consequences of slow information travel
on piracy snipped]

It just occurred to me that a useful fraction of the data on 
x-boats will be updates to ship registry and inter-bank reconciling.
Think of usenet with significant transmission lags between nodes.
Being two hops off the backbone becomes a lot more significant.

yours,
Michael
- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@access.digex.net  | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.access.digex.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 06:26:58 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Memorial Day 

At 03:50 AM 5/26/98 -0700, you wrote:
>> > Thank you vetrans, for your service and sacrifice.
>> You're welcome.
>> Keven
>
>Hey, I needed to hear that.

I could get technical and point out that Memorial Day is for those who fell
in the line of duty.. us living vets get Veteran's Day in November.

In Memory of SSG Gordon R. Greene, United States Army.  1965-1991.
One-half of the best sniper team in history, just ask us.
- --

+------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
+------------------------------------------+
| "or it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' | 
| "Chuck him out, the brute!"              |
| But it's "Saviour of 'is country"        |
| when the guns begin to shoot;"           |
+------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 06:40:28 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Is the 100-diameter limit planetary or solar? 

At 02:18 AM 5/26/98 -0400, you wrote:
>> One interesting development in the Lunion projuect is a system where the
>> solar jump line is out beyond the mainworld by a large factor.  There is a
>> world reasonably close (a little frozen iceball), and I've decided that the
>> starport is in orbit there, rather than at the system mainworld.
>
>Humongous red giant as a primary?

G5iii.  The mainworld is a belt, so I have the station as the only real
fixed point.

- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 09:10:51 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: "Weather" in space

A few weeks ago, I asked the TML about what everyday, natural events
could within a star system could affect a ship and received some good
answers.
However...

ABC network is running a story on these effects at the following URL:

http://www.abcnews.com/sections/science/DailyNews/satellite_future980521
.html

and have done a good job on *detailing* specific effects. If you want to
a little
color to a campaign, do yourself a favor and check it out.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 10:22:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Letter of Marque

I'll buy a copy -- and yes, I'd be delighted to have it autographed for an
additional $3.

I know a store that would probably like a copy or two as well.

Joe Saul
jmsaul@umich.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 16:22:56 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage

David P. Summers writes:

>Mon, 25 May 1998 14:46:52 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>

>>I do think that using a fake identity also runs the risk of getting you
>>in trouble just for that, but that's not the big problem. The big problem
>>is when you've managed somehow to actually capture an opportune target
>>and the authorities begin looking for you in earnest. You'll then have
>>the option of getting caught or getting rid of your ship. Your multi-
>>million credit ship.
> 
>Well, if you recall, I think this is a reason why you might indeed
>just take the cargo.  Though the value of a ship (which you might
>just sell as parts) make make some feel risking Imperial attention
>worthwhile.  Now you can assume the Imperium tends to capture people
>that it sees as having committed high profile crimes, but that is
>another assumption.

What I assume is that if some authority becomes aware that there is a multi-
million credit ship out there that they have a perfect excuse for seizing
and confiscating, then simple greed will make them willing to expend a lot
of man-hours tracking down said ship. Whether they just steal the cargo or
take the whole ship is not all that important, though I do agree that IMO
any pirate lucky enough to actually capture a ship would be daft to leave
it behind.
 
>>Since "checking" a transponder consists of beaming it a signal and recording
>>the response, I rather think you will be checked in most systems, though not
>>necessarily in all of those with class E starports.
> 
>So that leave E ports as a place where piracy is easier...

Some Class E starports. Maybe...
 
>Part of the problem I had in the last flame war was the assumptions that
>piracy would only occur a certain way

Part of my problem was that I consider 'piracy' to be a word with a very
specific meaning, to wit, the act of capturing another ship using a ship
of your own.

>and if you stopped that, you stopped piracy.  This is at odds with how I
>see crime as historically operating.  (If you stamp out one method, a new
>one pops up).

You still haven't provided me with an example of an act of piracy in recent
time when the pirates were using a ship of equal or greater value than the
prey to run down and capture its victim. Modern day piracy does exist, but
it is not analogous to the kind of piracy portrayed in various Traveller
modules.




      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
"Facts are stubborn things, but not half so stubborn as fallacies."
                - Stella Maynard in "Anne of the Island"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #520
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 26 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 521



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Sword World names
Re: Letter of Marque
RE: New "Classic" Traveller Product
Re: GURPS Traveller Release
Re: Memorial Day 
RE: New "Classic" Traveller Product
re: Finding rogue GGs under Eris' sensor rules
Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)
Star Luminosity Question
re: Questions
Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)
RE: Starflight and Traveller
Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product
Re: Star Luminosity Question
RE: "Letter of Marque" - Green Light! 
Re: Transponders, and information transfer
Re: Questions
Re: Starflight and Traveller
Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 16:56:06 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Sword World names

Here is my list of sword names with a short note about each. I hope it will
be of interest. An '*' denotes a name used for one of the Traveller universe
Sword Worlds. Information in [] I've gotten off the list without being able
to verify it.

*Anduril        Sword of Aragorn, reforged from the shards of Narsil.

*Beater         Orcish name for Glamdring.

*Biter          Orcish name for Orcrist.

*Caladbolg      -

Caliburn        Another name for Excalibur.

*Colada         [El Cid's sword?]

Curtana         One of Piper's Sword Worlds.

Dainslaf        Sword I found somewhere but threw away the reference to :-(.

Dragvendel      Sword I found somewhere but threw away the reference to :-(.

*Durendal       Roland's sword (Presently in the care of The Phantom ;-).

*Dyrnwyn        From Celtic mythology.

Enos            -

*Excalibur      Magic sword given to Arthur by the Lady of the Lake.

Flamberge       One of Piper's Sword Worlds.

Flammarion      Imperial planet in Sword Worlds Subsector. Not necessarily a
                sword name.

Galatine        The Sword in the Stone. Drawn from the stone by Arthur and
                later given to Gawaine as a badge of office.

Glamdring       The sword of Gandalf.

*Gram           Given by Odin to Sigmund, Volsung's son. It broke many years
                later against Odin's spear. It was reforged and wielded by
                Sigmund's son Sigurd Fafnersbane.

Grasscutter     Another name for _Kusanagi-no-Tsurugi_.

Gunn            Imperial planet in Sword Worlds Subsector. Not necessarily a
                sword name.

Haulteclere     One of Piper's Sword Worlds.

*Hofud          According to L. Sprague de Camp and Fletcher Pratt this is
                the name of Freyr's sword that he gives to Skirnir. Freyr's
                sword is mentioned in every book about Norse mythology I've
                seen, but _The Incompleat Enchanter_ is the only place I've
                seen it named. (According to GURPS:Vikings it is _Heimdal's_
                sword.)

*Hrunting       Said to be the best of all swords. Lent to Beovulf by Ufred
                and used in the fight with Grendel's mother.

Isenfang        Sword I found somewhere but threw away the reference to :-(.

*Joyeuse        [Charlemagne's sword? Joan of Arc's? Roland's?]

Kusanagi-no-    "The Grasscutting Sword", the sword given by the KAMI to the
Tsurugi         rightful emperor of Japan.

Laevateinn      The Wounding Wand. Forged with runes by Loki at the gates of
                Niflheim.

Mimming         Magic sword obtained by the hero Hadding on a journey to the
                underworld.

Mistelten       In one story about Balder's death he is killed by a magic
                sword called Mistelten (Mistletoe) rather than a arrow
		made of Misteltoe.

Morglay         One of Piper's Sword Worlds.

*Narsil         The sword of Elendil, broken in his fight with Sauron.

*Orcrist        The sword of Thorin Oakenshield.

*Sacnoth        Leothric's sword from Dunsany's "The Fortress Unvanquishable,
                Save for Sacnoth".

Sequence        Alternate name for Galatine.

Skraep          Belonged to the legendary Danish hero-king Vermund. Wielded
                by Vermund's son Uffe the Meek in a duel with the son of a
                rival king and one of his henchmen for the Danish throne.
		Made a characteristic noise when it killed someone.

*Sting          Long knife wielded by Bilbo Baggins, Frodo Baggins, and Sam
                Gamgee.

Svavasorm       Sword I found somewhere but threw away the reference to :-(.

Tizon           [El Cid's sword?]

*Tyrfing        Forged by two dwarfs for Svafrlami. Captured by Arngrim who
                killed Svarflami with it. Wielded by Arngrim's som Angantyr
                and buried with him. Given by the dead Angantyr to his
                daughter Hervor. Used by Hervor's son Heidrek to kill his
                brother Angantyr. Later wielded by Heidrek's son, yet
                another Angantyr.

Piper's List (These are the names of Sword Worlds named by Piper in his book
_Space Viking_):

Excalibur, Morglay, Flamberge, Durendal, Gram, Joyeuse, Haulteclere, Curtana.


Any additional information any of you have will be gratefully recieved,
especially if you can tell me your sources. Mythological and historical
swords only; I'm not very interested in litterary swords (except Sacnoth
and the Tolkien swords, natch.)


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 11:11:22 -0400
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: Letter of Marque

A new CT product?  You bet I'd go for one.  Sign me up.

Greg Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 11:21:18 -0400
From: "Bob Sanders" <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: RE: New "Classic" Traveller Product

> From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
> Subject: New "Classic" Traveller Product
> 
> *** My question to the list is this - How many of you would be 
> interested in
> buying this 'Classic Traveller' era book? I would need to be reasonably
> 


Count me in!  
Bob Sanders

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 11:29:13 -0400
From: "John Watts" <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller Release

Has anyone seen a firm ( well....as firm as these things get ) release date
for G:T yet?

I've checked with my FLGS and they dont have a listing for it well into
October.

Thanks

Shade


Just remember:  The reason Santa is so jolly is
because he knows where all the bad girls live.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 08:18:09 -0700
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Memorial Day 

> >> > Thank you vetrans, for your service and sacrifice.
> >> You're welcome.
> >> Keven
> >Hey, I needed to hear that.
> I could get technical and point out that Memorial Day is for those who fell
> in the line of duty.. us living vets get Veteran's Day in November.

You could, but my brother did fall in Desert Storm & that is way I said
that.

> In Memory of SSG Gordon R. Greene, United States Army.  1965-1991.
> One-half of the best sniper team in history, just ask us.
> | Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |

Legate, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 11:47:38 -0400
From: "Bob Sanders" <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: RE: New "Classic" Traveller Product

If Keith signs it, heck, raise the price to $20, give it to him as a reward,
and lets get the show on the road!


BTW, I will take about 5, 2 signed.

Bob Sanders

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 09:09:06 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Finding rogue GGs under Eris' sensor rules

For reference, the numbers I got looked something like this:

(extract from the "natural objects" section of the sensor rules0
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Detection ranges in an empty hex for a "typical"
sensor (PEMS-13, AEMS-11) are as follows:

Object                  Passive Range           Active Range 
200-m iceball           50,000 km               500,000 km
Small Gas Giant         100 AU                  -----
        (1 billion years old)
Small Gas Giant         3 AU                    -----   
        (5 billion years old)
Large Gas Giant         3000 AU                 -----
        (1 billion years old)
Large Gas Giant         300 AU                  -----
        (5 billion years old)

Small military sensors (PEMS-13.5) multiply ranges by x3; big military
or science sensors multiply range by x10. These imply that almost all
large gas giants will have been charted by the Imperium but that small
gas giants will often have escaped detection.

In more detail, natural object signatures:

Gas giants in empty hexes or Oort clouds use the following chart:

Object                  Passive/Vis     Passive/IR      Active
Small Gas Giant         +2.0            +3.5 *          **
        (0.05 jupiter mass, 1 billion years old, empty hex)
Small Gas Giant         +2.0            +2.0 *          **
        (0.05 jupiter mass, 1 billion years old, empty hex)
Large Gas Giant         +3.0            +5.0 *          **
        (1 jupiter mass, 1 billion years old, empty hex)
Large Gas Giant         +3.0            +4.0 *          **
        (1 jupiter mass, 5 billion years old, empty hex)
Very Large Gas Giant    +3.0            +6.0            **
        (5 jupiter mass, 1 billion years old, empty hex)
Very Large Gas Giant    +3.0            +5.0 *          **
        (5 jupiter mass, 5 billion years old, empty hex)
Brown Dwarf             +3.0            +8.0            **
        (40 jupiter mass, 1 billion years old, empty hex)
Brown Dwarf             +3.0            +7.5            **
        (40 jupiter mass, 5 billion years old, empty hex)

* indicates that science-grade sensors get an additional +0.5 to 
detect these objects using Passive/IR.

** gas giant planets and brown dwarfs have radar signature sufficiently
low that they have not yet been measured from the Earth, and I'm not sure
how to calculate them; in all practical circumstances the target would be
detected visually or in the infra-red first. Some gas giants may have
moons or rings (active signature +0.5 to +4.0) that will be detectable
instead. (Roll 11+ on 2d6 to have reatined a moon, +1 for large gas
giants and +2 for very large; roll 1d6/2 for the moon's active signature.) 
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
(I think Eris' numbers somewhat overrate skill - a mediocre operator with a 
PEMS-14 will still beat a genius with a PEMS-11, no matter what - but then,
he's a heretic.) 


Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 09:24:12 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)

OK, for everyone who was interested, I did research for you this weekend:

According to the MegaTraveller Journal, Issue 2, page 24:

"When a group of starships know they have to arrive in unison, they elect to
spend significantly more time at the start computing and sharing jump vector
computations.  This leads to a much more accurate jump exit at the other
end,
with the error dropping significantly.

The formula in the Starship Operator's Manual for normal jumpspace exit is:

124 hrs + (2D x 6 hrs)

yielding a result of 136-196 hours (that is, 5.7 to 8.2 days)

If double the jump preparation time is spent with all the affected ships in
computer link via tight beam communication, use the following formula
instead:

167 hrs + (2D x 0.1 hr)

yielding a result of 167.2-168.2 hours.

Most ships now arrive within minutes of each other, with the worst spread
being up to 60 minutes apart (and this only happens in about 1 out of 20
jumps).  Considering the vast distances found in a star system, starships
arriving minutes apart would not spoil a surprise arrival.

Constant communication during the jump vector generate (sic) is essential
for
this to work, and double the normal vector generation time must be observed.
But when getting there "on a dime" timewise is essential, then this
technique
is the key.  Most civilian vessels don't need this level of schedule
precision, so they don't bother. -- Joe D. Fugate Sr."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 11:25:05 CDT
From: Russell Anderson Sinclair <rsincla@acad.stedwards.edu>
Subject: Star Luminosity Question

Hmm, my previous e-mail didn't seem to go through, so I'll try it again.

I was looking through the rules for system generation and came across star
Luminosity and Type. I am familiar with white dwarfs, blue giants, etc.
and what they are as far as heat and light.

Could someone please explain in Traveller rules the deal with Luminosity
numbers and star types (A, B, etc) and what they mean?

Thank you for your time & sorry if this is done to death.


- --
The three principal virtues of a programmer are Laziness, Impatience,
      and Hubris.
                                -From Unix 'man perl'

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 09:56:50 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Questions

>How fast do you you have to go before whacking into
>interstellar hydrogen molecules becomes a significant radiation danger? What
>are your odds of hitting something big enough to do you damage at 0.1+ C?

You'd have to be going at highly relativisitic speeds before hydrogen   
starts looking like radiation rather than like gas. (Most interstellar 
hydrogen is atomic, btw, not molecular.) Density in interstellar space is
around an atom/cm^3, or 10^-19 kg/m3 of gas. Interstellar dust is in the denser
clouds, mostly, where the gas density is about 40 atoms/cm3 and the dust
density around 10^-10 particles per cm3, so at 10,000 km/s you're hitting a
dust grain per square centimeter of hull every 5 seconds (or about 2000
dust grains per square meter per second); average dust grains are about 0.3
microns in radius so each impact has 0.005 joules of energy.

Very little is known about the density of bigger dust grains in our
solar system, let alone in interstellar space - but (very roughly) I would
estimate that millimeter-sized grains are about 10^10 times rarer, so you 
hit one every six months per square meter of hull. They hit with an energy
of about 180 MJ - comparable to a laser hit. So travelling at 10000km/s 
you get the equivalent of a laser hit every six months per m2 of frontal 
area. 

The rate of hits at a given energy level goes up a ship's velocity to
the fifth power (roughly - because small grains are more common than big
ones) so at 100,000 km/s you get hit by a 180 MJ impact every three minutes
per m2 of area - and every six months per m2 of area you get hit by 
18,000 MJ, which is seriously bad news. 

Multiply numbers by x10 to x100 inside a solar system. In interstellar space
inbetween clouds, on the other hand, divide rates by a factor of 100 or 
more.

Bruce
(And any of the above numbers could be wrong by x100 either way - these really
are very poorly studied numbers.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 13:26:29 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)

Brian Mays wrote:

> OK, for everyone who was interested, I did research for you this weekend:
>
> According to the MegaTraveller Journal, Issue 2, page 24:
>
> "When a group of starships know they have to arrive in unison, they elect to
> spend significantly more time at the start computing and sharing jump vector
> computations.  This leads to a much more accurate jump exit at the other
> end,
> with the error dropping significantly.
>
> The formula in the Starship Operator's Manual for normal jumpspace exit is:
>
> 124 hrs + (2D x 6 hrs)
>
> yielding a result of 136-196 hours (that is, 5.7 to 8.2 days)
>
> If double the jump preparation time is spent with all the affected ships in
> computer link via tight beam communication, use the following formula
> instead:
>
> 167 hrs + (2D x 0.1 hr)
>
> yielding a result of 167.2-168.2 hours.
>
> Most ships now arrive within minutes of each other, with the worst spread
> being up to 60 minutes apart (and this only happens in about 1 out of 20
> jumps).  Considering the vast distances found in a star system, starships
> arriving minutes apart would not spoil a surprise arrival.
>
> Constant communication during the jump vector generate (sic) is essential
> for
> this to work, and double the normal vector generation time must be observed.
> But when getting there "on a dime" timewise is essential, then this
> technique
> is the key.  Most civilian vessels don't need this level of schedule
> precision, so they don't bother. -- Joe D. Fugate Sr."

  I would like to add that X-Boats would probably use this precision to keep
their schedule regular.  No more of this "Was the X-boat destroyed or is it just
late? We'll have to wait an extra two days to be certain...".  The X-Boat will
always arrive in a one hour window unless something bad has happened.  Which
would spawn immediate search missions.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 10:34:24 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Starflight and Traveller

>I have tried both AT-SLOW and ICD/ICE.  Neither of them will work 
>on my P100.
>Any ideas on how to slow down a Pentium?

Try Windows 95/98    :)

Brian

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 11:02:07 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product

/AOL
Me Too! Me Too!
AOL/

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 13:34:12 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Star Luminosity Question

Russell Anderson Sinclair wrote:

> Hmm, my previous e-mail didn't seem to go through, so I'll try it again.
>
> I was looking through the rules for system generation and came across star
> Luminosity and Type. I am familiar with white dwarfs, blue giants, etc.
> and what they are as far as heat and light.
>
> Could someone please explain in Traveller rules the deal with Luminosity
> numbers and star types (A, B, etc) and what they mean?
>
> Thank you for your time & sorry if this is done to death.

I pretty recently posted the HR diagram

> http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/1056/HRdiag.jpg
>
Hertzsprung-Russell Diagram
The H-R diagram compares the brightness of a star with its temperature. The
diagonal line running from the upper left to the lower right is called the
Main Sequence. Stars lying on the Main Sequence are blue when they are bright
and red when they are dim. Stars in the upper right (called Red Giants) are
very bright, but still appear red. Stars near the bottom (known as White
Dwarfs) are white, but not very bright. This diagram was developed
independently by Ejnar Hertzsprung, a Danish astronomer, and Henry Norris
Russell, an American astronomer.

"Hertzsprung-Russell Diagram," Microsoft(R) Encarta(R) 96 Encyclopedia. (c)
1993-1995 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Additionally, the decimal classification after the spectral listing tells you
how close it is to the next spectral class.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 10:44:25 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: "Letter of Marque" - Green Light! 

I would be interested in this product, signed or unsigned.  If we can lure
either of the Keith brothers back into business . . . :)

Brian

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM
>[mailto:owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM]On Behalf Of Sanders
>Sent: Monday, May 25, 1998 10:16 AM
>To: traveller@mpgn.com
>Subject: "Letter of Marque" - Green Light!
>
>
>Hello fellow TML'ers....it's Memorial Day and I am off to the lake for a
>picnic and some boating fun...but I just wanted to let everyone know the
>status of the "Letter of Marque" project.
>
>Marc has agreed...
>Andrew has agreed...
>I've recieved email from 70 TML'ers expressing an interest in
>purchasing the
>LOM manuscript...
>
>So...expect "Letter of Marque" to be available in roughly 2-3 weeks! :)
>
>How many of you would be willing to pay an additional $3 to have your copy
>autographed by Andrew Keith himself? This extra thee bucks would
>go directly
>to Andrew, and would help make up in a small way for the rather modest
>amount I was able to pay him for the manuscript.
>
>Stay tuned for further posts later this week.
>
>
>L8r,
>Paul Sanders
>timmon@primenet.com
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 10:47:34 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Transponders, and information transfer

Tue, 26 May 1998 00:41:07 -0700, "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>What it also  means is that you don't need super-dooper
>high tech Sensors to track people well enough to be Space
>Traffic control.

I don't see a need for space traffic control out past sensor
range.  Space just gets too big too fast as you move away
from a planet to need it.  If someone could show that a busy
system like Regina needs to track ships all the way in from
100 diam to prevent collisions, I would think that such
systems would require an active tracking signal (though
my guess one would just use a radio signal rather than have
a seperate box).  However, this would an _enourmous_ amount
of traffic.

>In a military situation, transponders help the computers
>running your battle keep track of all the vessels, rather
>than needing to figure out all the reflected signatures,
>and talk to them to figure out who is who. This makes the
>fog of war considerably reduced. The admiral can figure out
>who is heading where, and what their status is - probably
>including missile load-outs and damage levels.

I'm not sure on this one.  It might be worth while.  However,
the defender already knows all the ships around him and can
simply have the computer not display civilian ships.  Whether
he wants an incoming enemy to know which ships are civilian
and which are military depends on whether he thinks that means
that the enemy won't attack them and wether wants to use
that to confuse the enemy.  (Which depends on how ruthless
one sees each side being.  I don't see the Imperium as
having our modern day sensibilities, witness the common
resort to comerce raiding, but it could go either way).

>Usually your military transponders are programmed to only
>respond to an appropriate code, so they don't broadcast
>their position to everyone. They can be switched off,
>though this isn't necessarily a good idea in an automated
>environment which shoots at things that don't respond to a
>"Friend or Foe" query.
>
>Does that sound unreasonable?

Not unreasonable.  My take is a bit different.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 10:45:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Questions

GDW GAMES writes:
> Which brings me to a question that has undoubtedly been done to death
> either here or somewhere (and please do not begin another discussion of it
> if I am opening old wounds), so if someone could email me the relevant FAQs
> I'd appreciate it: How fast do you you have to go before whacking into
> interstellar hydrogen molecules becomes a significant radiation danger?
> What are your odds of hitting something big enough to do you damage at
> 0.1+ C? 

Well, at .03c hydrogen nuclei (probably not too many molecules out there) have
an energy of around .8 MeV, which qualifies as radiation; of course, protons
aren't exactly a huge radiation hazard, you can stop them with a sheet of paper
at those energy levels, and most traveller ships are pretty heavily armored. 
By .1c they have energies of over 9 MeV, and secondary gamma rays are a
significant worry, you probably want a hull several centimeters thick.  By .5c
those protons are hitting with energies of around 500 MeV, and you want a good
part of a meter of shielding.

As for dust grains, they can be a significant hazard, you want a specially
designed vehicle, schemes I've seen involved using some form of regenerating
barrier in front of the vehicle, since the effect of hitting a dust grain is
basically equivalent to a surface explosion.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 13:05:41 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Starflight and Traveller

Old and worn out joke...how about somthing usefull.


Brian Mays wrote:

> >I have tried both AT-SLOW and ICD/ICE.  Neither of them will work
> >on my P100.
> >Any ideas on how to slow down a Pentium?
>
> Try Windows 95/98    :)
>
> Brian



- --
My god, it's full of stars!


Http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/4467

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 14:10:53 EDT
From: CardSharks <CardSharks@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)

From T4.1

BREAKOUT
	A ship may exit jump space in two ways: at or near the point planned for, or
at a point where the straight line course crosses a 100 diameter sphere.
	The Planned Breakout Point. The course plotted by the Astrogator may include
a predicted point for breakout. A successful jump will carry a ship to that
predicted breakout point within about 100,000 km. Breakout points are commonly
used in naval operations when maneuvers take ships to locations relatively
removed from astral bodies.

PLANNED BREAKOUT POINT
+D-D	Bands	Km	T&T
	- 5	3	- 125,000	-25,000
	- 4	2	- 100,000	-20,000
	- 3	2	-   75,000	-15,000
	- 2	1	-   50,000	-10,000
	- 1	1	-   25,000	-5,000
	0	0	0	0
	+1	1	+25,000	+5,000
	+2	1	+50,000	+10,000
	+3	2	+75,000	+15,000
	+4	2	+100,000	+20,000
	+5	3	+125,000	+25,000
	Bands are 50,000 km space combat range bands. Km reflects actual distance
along the plotted course. T&T reflects variation for trained crews in ships
with finely tuned drives.
	Crossing The 100 Diameter Sphere. An astrogator may plot a course which
crosses the 100 diameter sphere. A ship in jump space automatically breaks out
at the point where that course crosses the 100-diameter sphere (with no
variation). This technique places the ship in the best possible position to
continue its voyage to a world.
	Natural Safeguards. The physics of jump space force a ship out of jump space
when it crosses the 100-Diameter Sphere. As a result, a ship cannot exit jump
space within a world, planetoid, star, or even another ship.

TIME TO BREAKOUT
	A typical jump takes about a week (168 hours). The actual time spent is
random. Military ships can take slightly less time on average.
	Squadron Maneuvers. Highly tuned drives in a squadron of ships, along with
highly trained crews, can make their emergence from jump very close to the
same time (within about a 5 hour window).

	TIME IN JUMP
+D-D	Comm	Mil	T&T	Perfect
	- 5	158	162	163.5	165.0
	- 4	160	163	164.0	165.2
	- 3	162	164	164.5	165.4
	- 2	164	165	165.0	165.6
	- 1	166	166	165.5	165.8
	0	168	167	166.0	166.0
	+1	170	168	166.5	166.2
	+2	172	169	167.0	166.4
	+3	174	170	167.5	166.6
	+4	176	171	168.0	166.8
	+5	178	172	168.5	167.0
	Time to breakout is shown in hours.
	Comm: Commercial and private ships using standard drives.
	Mil. Military ships in service.
	T&T. Trained and tuned. Military ships with highly trained crews and
carefully tuned drives.
	Perfect. If the rolls produce a perfect jump +/- 0, reroll on the Perfect
column.

DETECTION
	Ships entering and leaving jump space can be detected.
	Entering Jump: A ship entering jump disappears from detector screens. There
is a pulse of energy which is detectable to PRadar (Passive Radar)
	Leaving Jump. A ship leaving jump emits a pulse of energy which is detectable
to PRadar.
	In Jump: A ship in jump cannot be detected. A ship in jump is incapable of
detecting anything also in jump, or outside of jump.

 FOR SIMPLICITY
	In most cases, a jump can be described as a successful movement from one star
system to another. It takes about a week. Travel from the StartWorld to the
Jump Point takes about a day; travel from the Jump Point to the
DestinationWorld also takes about a day.
	Only if circumstances require should the details of jump be implemented.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #521
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 26 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 522



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Questions
Re: Jumping at Lagrange points
Re: Escort tonnage
re: Questions
RE: Starflight and Traveller
Re: Off Topic Space 1889
"Letter of Marque" - Payment Methods
TEST MESSAGE
Re: Sword World names
Re: Escort tonnage
Re: Transponders, and information transfer
Re:"Letter of Marque" - Order Now!
RE: Starflight and Traveller
Re: Sword World names
Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)
A modification to Eris' sensor rules
Re: Off Topic Space 1889
Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)
Re:  [TTL] A modification to Eris' sensor rules
Re: Starflight and Traveller
Re: "Letter of Marque" - Payment Methods
Re: Starflight and Traveller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 11:20:19 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Questions

>Hm...the numbers I've seen on meteor density suggest a much flatter curve --
>the number of objects of a given size is roughly inversely proportional to the
>mass of the object
I was using number propotional to mass^-2, but that was based on memory 
(and a feeling that number proportional to mass puts too much mass in the 
high end.) Interstellar dust should certainly be more prejudiced to the low 
end of the mass function than solar-system dust/meteors, for obvious reasons...
but overall these are pretty poorly known numbers. My scaling from 
0.3 micron objects to 1-mm objects actually used (mass)^-1 (with the assumption
in the later scaling law that it flattens to mass^-2 around 1 mm, which 
was pretty arbitrary.) I think mass^-2 is more reasonable for interstellar
dust, but we're really talking about almost-unobserved numbers right now. 

(Clearly it can't be "number of objects inversely proportional to mass"
up to arbitrary masses, because you end up with an infinite amount of mass...
in fact, it can't even follow that relationship for interstellar material
up to a very high mass, or you end up with too low a hydrogen-to-carbon ratio.)

Hmm. In fact, my initial numbers may have been too high (I should have
stuck to mass^-2 at lower masses, or something like it), which could decrease
the 180 MJ hit rate even at 100,000 km/s to one every ten years or so.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 09:57:39 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Jumping at Lagrange points

 Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>SD Mooney wrote:
>> Anyway, to the point: In part of the novel, a ship avoids the gravitational
>> field limit by jumping at a Lagrange point. Do you think that this is
>> feasible in Traveller. I can't see anything that would stop this - in the
>> book it is described as a very risky manuever as there is only a small
>> region where it is safe.
>
>It would not work because almost as soon as you jump, you travel out of the
>lagrange point and thus precipitate out of  jump.

That was what I thought - but does it say anywhere (excluding the T4.1
draft) that the gravitational J-space boundary corresponds to N-space? My
other potential objection would be that the Lagrange point is a point where
two gravitation fields cancel each other out...

At the moment I would be tempted to let players try this manuever, and let
it mitigate some of the bad effects. For example, a <10D jump at a Lagrange
point (!!!!) wiould be treated as <100D etc. Obviously, this isn't a
commercial manuever.....

The other thing I noticed about the book was the requirement for a ship to
align itself with its jump destination.

And for the pirates thread

- - each system has a designated emergence zone. If you miss it you are
targeted by the system and naval assets in the area. There is a pirate
attack described, on a non-jump insystem vessel far enough away from the
main planet to allow 20 minutes or so before a response could be expected.
The timings relate to the fact that jump is used in system, and is nowhere
near as long as a Traveller jump. However, the target had been identified
and only two specific external carried cargo canisters were hit....

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 12:07:59 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage

Tue, 26 May 1998 16:22:56 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen
<rancke@diku.dk>
> What I assume is that if some authority becomes aware that there is a multi-
> million credit ship out there that they have a perfect excuse for seizing
> and confiscating, then simple greed will make them willing to expend a lot
> of man-hours tracking down said ship.

It all depends on how many ships (which the Imperium buys new) it needs
to use (along with man hourse and other costs) vs. the revenue of
selling a ship used at auction....

> I do agree that IMO
> any pirate lucky enough to actually capture a ship would be daft to leave
> it behind.

You misunderstood.  I think it is quite possible that a pirate would
leave the ship behind if the difference in getting caught was
enough.  I also see the rewards as making taking the ship too
hard to pass up (though this kind of piracy would be less
frequent).  I guess I can see it going either way pretty
easily....

> >and if you stopped that, you stopped piracy.  This is at odds with how I
> >see crime as historically operating.  (If you stamp out one method, a new
> >one pops up).

> You still haven't provided me with an example of an act of piracy in recent
> time when the pirates were using a ship of equal or greater value than the
> prey to run down and capture its victim. Modern day piracy does exist, but
> it is not analogous to the kind of piracy portrayed in various Traveller
> modules.

I didn't know I had been required.  The pirates in the south china
sea often used proper ships to stop and rob ships that hardly
worth anything.  But, as I said, I think getting caught up in
how thing operate in the late 20th century is a mistake and 
back in history examples of what you are talking about are not
hard to come by.
 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 12:25:43 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: re: Questions

Tue, 26 May 1998 09:56:50 -0700, bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan
Macintosh)

> >How fast do you you have to go before whacking into
> >interstellar hydrogen molecules becomes a significant radiation danger? What
> >are your odds of hitting something big enough to do you damage at 0.1+ C?

> You'd have to be going at highly relativisitic speeds before hydrogen   
> starts looking like radiation rather than like gas. (Most interstellar 
> hydrogen is atomic, btw, not molecular.)

How do you get radiation from collision with neutral atoms (doesn't
bremsstrahlung only occur with charged particles?).  Or is it thought
that most of the interstellar hydrogen is charged?  Also, I think
Loren might want to know what you mean my "highly relativistic".
______________________________
 summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 12:30:30 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Starflight and Traveller

How about learning some tact/manners?

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM
>[mailto:owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM]On Behalf Of Talisman
>Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 1998 11:06 AM
>To: traveller@mpgn.com
>Subject: Re: Starflight and Traveller
>
>
>Old and worn out joke...how about somthing usefull.
>
>
>Brian Mays wrote:
>
>> >I have tried both AT-SLOW and ICD/ICE.  Neither of them will work
>> >on my P100.
>> >Any ideas on how to slow down a Pentium?
>>
>> Try Windows 95/98    :)
>>
>> Brian
>
>
>
>--
>My god, it's full of stars!
>
>
>Http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/4467
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 15:39:21 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Off Topic Space 1889

Alan;

Please let me know on E mail what you find out about this.

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 12:37:39 -0600
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: "Letter of Marque" - Payment Methods

I knew I was forgetting something important in my last post...

****
Regarding payment methods:

For those within the US - either a check or money order is fine.

For those OUTSIDE the US - Please send payment in the form of an
International Postal Money Order. NOT an International Check - my bank
charges me a considerable fee to cash them.

Several people outside the US have inquired about the possibility of sending
cash. I wouldn't advise it, but the choice is yours - I certainly take no
responsibility for its safe arrival.  

****

Others have had questions about when to send payment and scheduled mailing
dates:

Please send your payments nows - and remember to include the address where
you want your book mailed too along with the payment. Asking me to reserve a
copy via email is fine, but I will only be sending books to those who have
paid up by the time I take the manuscript to the printer.

I will stop taking orders on June 10th - that is the date the LOM manuscript
goes to the printer. Since I already have the 'proof' copies ready for the
printer, it will not take them long to make and bind the copies (remember,
we are talking quality photocopies here rather than actually printing). I
expect to have all 'Regular' (non-autographed copies) books in the mail by
June 15th, and all 'Autographed' books in the mail by June 20th at the latest.

****

Shipping:

Within the US and Canada shipping will be via normal first-class post.

Outside the US and canada shipping will be via surface-mail. This is time
consuming - allow 4-8 weeks for the book to arrive (it's usually faster than
that - but you never know). 

To make my life easier (I've answered nearly 200 emails this morning) - I
will NOT be sending any overseas orders via airmail. I know the wait sucks,
but airmail costs are prohibitive, and it's way to much of a hassle trying
to arrange the extra costs/details for those who are willing to pay the
additional postage no matter what. Please be forgiving on this point - I
*am* in the midst of closing up my home and setting my personal affairs in
order for my move to Europe in 8 weeks, and I just don't have the time to
coordinate individual mailings.

****

Lastly, I wanted to thank everyone who has expressed their appreciation to
me for getting this project off the ground. I would however myself like to
thank Marc Miller and Andrew Keith for making this project possible. They
were both very helpful and considerate - particularly in the area of
permission/lic. and authorship/copyright fees and financing - and I would
encourage those who, after having seen   "Letter of Marque" and like it to
thank them as well (complaints you can send my way - I'll be outta the
country after all :)

Sincerely,
Paul Sanders
timmon@primenet.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 11:44:09 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: TEST MESSAGE

still trying to get access.... bee recieving fine.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 22:37:10 +0200
From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se>
Subject: Re: Sword World names

> From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>

> *Caladbolg      -

Cuchulain used this 2h sword. Apparently it means 'Hard Lightning'. (Ref:
http://mythus.ml.org/aerth/Hibernia.html#Caladbolg .)
Supposedly it was made by Wayland and had the power to consume all that lay
in it's path.
(Ref: http://www.mystical-www.co.uk/arthuriana2z/e.htm#EX )

>*Colada         [El Cid's sword?]

Right.

>*Joyeuse        [Charlemagne's sword? Joan of Arc's? Roland's?]

Charlemagne.

> Tizon           [El Cid's sword?]

Right.

(The three above Ref: http://www.mtsu.edu/~kgregg/dmir/01/0107/0107.html )

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 08:40:23 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage

Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
> You still haven't provided me with an example of an act
> of piracy in recent time when the pirates were using a
> ship of equal or greater value than the prey to run down
> and capture its victim. Modern day piracy does exist, 

One of my players claimed to have seen something on TV 
(yeah, great reference) about a tanker going missing, 
believed pirated. Not a super-tanker, but none-the-less a 
significant dollar investment. He believes the report said 
it happened somewhere in South east asia.

Has anyone else seen reports of the same thing? [1]

Recently in New Zealand there was a yacht arrived from a
trip England-New Zealand, with bullet holes from pirates
machine guns (pictues on front page of local news paper),
They claimed to have only gotten away because the pirates
propeller got fouled in their fishing lines. The yacht 
wasn't a very big one, (though it did have a reasonable 
motor) - big enough for the family of 5, and stuff to get 
them to NZ. I got the impression, though it wasn't actually 
stated, that the pirates were using a speed boat of some 
description. This happened in the persian gulf, but I can't 
recollect which country it was closest to. Ive no idea what 
the relative values of the boats would have been.

I have also heard reports of a yacht owned by americans 
that showed up in a Nz harbour and handed a Barret light 50 
sniper rifle to harbour police - they had bought it for 
piracy defence. Unfortunately I can't remember the source 
for this.

Steve

[1]
Speaking of "Seen on TV" I saw a news report on BBC World 
News about someone being busted in Sicily for trying to 
sell Weapons grade plutonium, and selling it to an 
undercover cop, having been talked down in price from 22 
Million USD to 12 Million USD. I have since been unable to 
find any other references to this - it never appeared in 
our local news, and I couldn't find anything about it on 
the Web. I was rather interested in it, and wonder if 
anyone else saw any details. Happened about 2 months ago.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 08:47:55 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Transponders, and information transfer

"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

> I don't see a need for space traffic control out past sensor
> range.  

[reasonable arguments snipped]

Whatever you choose as a reasonable sensor range, you can 
get by with a sensor system half that powerful if you use 
transponders. That's a lot of the reason they're used 
nowdays. That and the fact that there is often a lot of 
noise/spurious returns (just how many silver foil wrappers 
of Imperial twinkie bars are their discarded in-system? How 
do they compare to Stealthed ships as far as a return goes?

Also I believe that if a system has a significant navy, 
there may well be reasons to at least keep track of the 
normal system traffic ("We are having a military exercise 
around this dead world, please stay away").

I also think space is big, so I don't really expect more 
than a smallish fraction of the space around a system to be 
continuously monitored, I guess mostly in the ecliptic, but 
then YTUMV.

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 17:21:54 EDT
From: Ghan II <GhanII@aol.com>
Subject: Re:"Letter of Marque" - Order Now!

 Put me down for 1 signed.
  Thanks,
    Doug Snyder
    ghanii@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 09:04:09 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Starflight and Traveller

At 10:34 AM 26/05/98 -0700, Brian Mays wrote:
>>I have tried both AT-SLOW and ICD/ICE.  Neither of them will work 
>>on my P100.
>>Any ideas on how to slow down a Pentium?
>
>Try Windows 95/98    :)

If this doesn't work crank up Word 97 or Outlook as well. That should do
the trick :)

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 08:58:39 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Sword World names

At 04:56 PM 26/05/98 +0200, Hans Rancke wrote:

>Flamberge       One of Piper's Sword Worlds.

I think this may be another of Roland's swords. IIRC he weilded quite a
number of different ones in various versions & stories.

>*Gram           Given by Odin to Sigmund, Volsung's son. It broke many years
>                later against Odin's spear. It was reforged and wielded by
>                Sigmund's son Sigurd Fafnersbane.

Is Sigmund also known as Sigurd? I think that he also used a sword called
Skofnung. Unfortunately I can't remember where I saw this.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 17:29:53 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)

> Bands are 50,000 km space combat range bands.

Why not return to 30,000 km range bands/hexes?  It'll fit better w/ previously
published material, as well as fit nicely w/ Brilliant Lances and Battle Rider
(the best Traveller space combat systems yet published).


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 98 15:22:07 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: A modification to Eris' sensor rules

On 05/26/98 at 09:09 AM,  bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) said:

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>(I think Eris' numbers somewhat overrate skill - a mediocre operator with
>a  PEMS-14 will still beat a genius with a PEMS-11, no matter what

Yes, I'm *sure* they do. 

I'm tinkering this up strictly for roleplaying, so operator skill is going
to be an important factor.  For passives, I figure skill and sensor
sensitivity are about 2/3 of the equation with the other 1/3 being divided
among target size and various modifiers.  For actives, the sensor's
sensitivity is more important at short ranges and the operator's skill is
more important at longer ranges.

Something I have considered, but haven't worked the numbers out on, is
doubling the Sensor Sensitivities from FFS2 (I don't use .5's anyway), so a
13 goes to 26 and a 13.5 goes to 27.  This weights the target number toward
the sensors over the PC's skill, and that's a good thing, but it means I'd
have to rework ranges.  Try this...


Range_Factor (RF):                round(log(km^5),0)-2

Passive_Reflective_Target (PRT):  round(log(Area),0)+modifiers

Passive_Emittive_Target (PET):    round(log(kw),0)+modifiers

Active_Reflective_Target (ART):   round(log(Area),0)+modifiers (min 1) 

Some Standard Ranges (for those that don't want to work them out)

   Ranges                           Range_Factor
   ===============================================
   0-30Kkm              0-1 hex          20
   30Kkm-300Kkm         2-10 hex         25
   300Kkm-3Mkm          10-100 hex       30
   3Mkm-30Mkm          100-1000 hex      35
   30Mkm-300Mkm        .2-2 AU           40
   300Mkm-3,000Mkm      2-20 AU          45
   3,000Mkm-30,000Mkm   20-200 AU        50
   
Target is a 100dt Scout (area:  750, power:  150/60/6, black hull,
Stealth_1) in the inner zone of the system (+1) at 1.2Mkm (28), using
baffling on its radiators.  The scanning platform has a PEMS-26 and an
AEMS-24 using 25MW of power (round(log(25),0) = 1 added to all ART's), with
Skill-12 operators.  PRT=3; PET=5; ART=3+1

 Using                Passive    Passive Emitted    Active 
  one minute scans    Refect.  Full  Stand.  Quiet  Sensor 
 -----------------------------------------------------------------
 Sensor Sensitivity     +26     +26   +26     +26  +(24*4)/(28/10)
 Sen.Ops Skill          +12     +12   +12     +12      +12
 PRT/PET                + 3     + 5   + 5     + 4
 Inner zone             + 1                      
 Active Sweep           + 1     + 1   + 1     + 1         
 One-Arc Search                                        + 2
 Black/Chameleon Hull   - 1
 Stealth_1              - 1     - 1   - 1     - 1      - 1
 Baffling                       - 1   - 1     - 1
 Range                  -28     -28   -28     -28      -28
                       -----   ----- -----   -----    -----
 Target                 +13     +16   +16     +15      +19
 Odds of Detection      44%     76%   76%     66%      95%

These numbers assume a "IR-neutral" drive.  If the ship is maneuvering with
a reaction drive (or if T-plates put out high heat IYTU) add 2 to the
target numbers.  If the sensor platform goes active it raises its PET by 4
for everybody, and guarantees it will be detected by any ship that it
detects.

Is this better, or do I need to raise Sensitivity more?  And I'm not really
happy with the way emitted signature is working out.  I'd like the PET to
drop a little more for ships running quiet.  What I might do is just have a
standard -2 modifier for a ship running quiet..that would mean it was using
1% standard operating power. 

> - but then, he's a heretic.) 

You bet'cha! ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 98 15:52:46 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Off Topic Space 1889

On 05/26/98 at 03:39 PM,  Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com> said:

>Please let me know on E mail what you find out about this.

Let us all know. It might, technically, be off topic for TML, but a lot of
us are fans fo 1889 too.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 98 18:00:45 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)

On 05/26/98 at 05:29 PM,  TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com> said:

>> Bands are 50,000 km space combat range bands.

>Why not return to 30,000 km range bands/hexes?  It'll fit better w/
>previously published material, as well as fit nicely w/ Brilliant Lances
>and Battle Rider (the best Traveller space combat systems yet published).

That's what I'm going to be using for tactical level space movement/combat.
Light seconds make sense, to me, for measurement of general space movement
and .1LS (30,000) for the tactical level, and I think it works as you go
lower too.

30,000 km
 3,000 km
   300 km
    30 km
     3 km
    300 m
     30 m
      3 m
     .3 m (1 foot)

Personally, I like this scale better than the T4/4.1 one.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 16:18:00 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  [TTL] A modification to Eris' sensor rules

>Something I have considered, but haven't worked the numbers out on, is
>doubling the Sensor Sensitivities from FFS2 (I don't use .5's anyway)
Not a bad idea; I don't like the 0.5's much either. Still, even with this,
adding sensitivy and skill seems too much to me - remember that even a +1 (old
system) represents a hundred times as much hardware, a +2 is *ten thousand*
times as much hardware - it's kind of like saying that a skilled person with a
teaspoon can move as much water as an average person with a gallon bucket.

Something like Ander's approach (successful skill role adds +1 or +2 to 
sensor) or mine (a skilled individual can make a detection at signal=0 while
a poor operator needs signal=2) is probably more realistic - but of course
it's all a matter of choice...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 19:03:50 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Starflight and Traveller

What exactly is Outlook?


Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> At 10:34 AM 26/05/98 -0700, Brian Mays wrote:
> >>I have tried both AT-SLOW and ICD/ICE.  Neither of them will work
> >>on my P100.
> >>Any ideas on how to slow down a Pentium?
> >
> >Try Windows 95/98    :)
>
> If this doesn't work crank up Word 97 or Outlook as well. That should do
> the trick :)
>
> --
> IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--
>
> "If in doubt - wipe it out."
>
> Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
> Palmerston North, New Zealand
> Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm



- --
My god, it's full of stars!


Http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/4467

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 20:15:50 EDT
From: Qstor <Qstor@aol.com>
Subject: Re: "Letter of Marque" - Payment Methods

Whats the address to order?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 19:25:36 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Starflight and Traveller

You are right, that was verry rude of me and I most humbly apologize...:-(

Brian Mays wrote:

> How about learning some tact/manners?
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM
> >[mailto:owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM]On Behalf Of Talisman
> >Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 1998 11:06 AM
> >To: traveller@mpgn.com
> >Subject: Re: Starflight and Traveller
> >
> >
> >Old and worn out joke...how about somthing usefull.

>



> --

My god, it's full of stars!


Http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/4467

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #522
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 27 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 523



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Escort tonnage
Re: Software (was Starflight)
Re: Misjumps?
re: Questions about interstellar dust
Re: Escort tonnage
Re:  [TTL] A modification to Eris' sensor rules
Re: Escort tonnage
It came from the back of the Trav-box ...
Re: Escort tonnage
Tracy class Longship, as modified by Ditzammer Spofulam
It came from the back of the Trav-box ... can you rent the Navy ?
Planned Precipitation Points - Pesky Pirates Pummelled
Re: GURPS Traveller Release
Space; 1889 license
Non-Trav Announcement

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 21:33:54 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage

Happens off the coast of Thailand and some in Indonesia.  60 minutes did a
thing on it about a year back I believe.  There are also the occasional
reports coming out of Florida that boats are being attacked and taken with
all hands being killed and dumped overboard.  Admittedly these are small
boats being attacked by small boats  but it is happening none the less.  But
to end the debate I'll give you this
http://www.vantage-security.com/23pira.htm so that you can go read up on it
yourself.

Thom Harris

- -----Original Message-----
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage


>
>Part of my problem was that I consider 'piracy' to be a word with a very
>specific meaning, to wit, the act of capturing another ship using a ship
>of your own.
>
>You still haven't provided me with an example of an act of piracy in recent
>time when the pirates were using a ship of equal or greater value than the
>prey to run down and capture its victim. Modern day piracy does exist, but
>it is not analogous to the kind of piracy portrayed in various Traveller
>modules.
>
>      Hans Rancke

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 98 03:38 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Software (was Starflight)

Moin Talisman,

> What exactly is Outlook?

	The mailuser agent of the evil empire. Click here to become
	flamed by TML diehards ;-)

	The bad thing's to say about :

	- any WinDummy using it without prior internet experience in
	  TML becomes flamed because of multipart posting - probately
	  not only by me.
	- The MIME header produced by outlook is still broken, even if
	  the user chose to disable multipart.

:MIME-Version: 1.0
:Content-Type: text/plain;
:	charset="iso-8859-1"
:Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
:X-Priority: 3
:X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
:X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
:X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3

	The newline in content type causes alot of software to
	break. Also 7bit encoding is NOT allowed with iso-8859-1.
	This should be 8bit or (shiddering) quoted-printable.

	Well perhaps somebody should tell those WinDummies employed by
	MS to read the RFC's.  But I rather think that it was the
	intension of all MS network programs to CAUSE problems to
	user without using their software.

	Mozilla is probately a better choice for W95. e.g. your header
	looks fine.  They are text/plain; us-ascii, 7bit. Well that's
	not fancy but its the setting that never cause a problem, even
	to old VAX mailers or BitNet servers.
- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 21:50:08 -0700
From: Richard Hough <richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com>
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

>>9. By inducing misjumps, one can now get up to jump 36 safely with no extra
>>fuel. Even though you can't choose the destination; trade, exploration, and
>>news will travel orders of magnitude faster. It will, at least, obsolete
>>the Xboat network. Mains become irrelevant, too. Moreover, rifts or sectors
>>where there are only a few systems will become veritable highways since you
>>have a high chance of predicting where you'll misjump to.
>
>Here, I don't agree with you at all.  You could end up going 1-36 parsecs
>(equal chance of any) in any direction.

Not true. If there are, for example, 100 large masses in misjump range
coreward and 500 rimward, and one can only misjump to a large mass, then
the chance of misjumping rimward is 5 times that of misjumping coreward.

>The point of X-boats is that they
>get the new someplace fast and reliably.  You'd need to launch *dozens* to
>get lucky and go in the direction you wanted at a distance greater than
>jump 6.  I simply don't think the Imperium has the resources to launch
>dozens of x-boats for every one that comes in, hoping to get lucky.

First of all, the Imperium has thousands of X-boats available. And the
important thing about an X-boat is not that each one goes to a specific
destination, but that the entire Imperium is covered. This can be done much
faster if a typical X-boat travels at jump-14 or so than jump-4, even if
you can't choose the destination for each one.

Consider a few dozen X-boats at a single system near the center of the
Imperium. Now, you could send them to each neighboring system at jump-4,
using feeder or transport craft to ferry out information to systems not on
the X-boat route, taking a number of weeks roughly equal to the radius of
the Imperium in parsecs divided by 4. Or, you could initiate a jump-1,
using only 1/4 of the carried fuel, and deliberately misjump. Each ship
misjumps to a system from a few to dozens of parsecs away. Inside the
Imperium practically every system is populated, so you transmit the latest
news, get refuelled, and misjump again. If you don't happen to hit a
populated system you use some of the excess fuel to misjump again, or jump
to a specific destination if there is only enough fuel for 1 jump left. The
same transport or feeder ships send out the information from the misjump
point. While you can't say which of the original ships will get to the
Imperial border, you do know they will get there in a number of weeks
roughly equal to the Imperial radius divided by 7 (assuming an average
misjump of 14 parsecs, and that half the misjumps will be backwards in the
direction you jumped from). This is being really conservative, because you
can arrange for more than half of the misjumps to be in the direction you
want to go...

>Similarly, you could try for many months to cross a rift that way.  You'll
>*eventually* succeed, but blind chance it not something you can use for
>anything other than an initial mapping voyage by truly daredevil/insane
>explorers.

But we're not using blind chance anymore. Remember, in the proposed misjump
rules you always misjump to a large mass. The Imperium know where the large
masses are, and it can use this distribution to calculate the statistical
probability for misjump for any point. If the probability distribution is
not favorable to your final destination, you jump normally to a place where
it is favorable then misjump. Yes, you won't know *which* mass you'll
misjump to, but through repeated trials you will be able to control the
proportion of ships going to each point. Not so useful for individual
Travellers, perhaps, but a free lunch to fleets or large-scale transport.

There is nothing mysterious about using statistics to get a favorable
average outcome without knowing any specific outcome. Medicine and
economics already work this way.

>Also remember that you could come out of jump around a white dwarf with no
>planets or gas giants (ie no fuel) or in some similarly dubious position.

Well, since the only systems in Traveller that meet this criteria are those
without gas giants or hydrospheres, they are pretty rare. And most of them
are inhabited and have starports to buy fuel from.

Or do you mean millions of invisible masses distributed homogeniously in
all the "empty" stellar hexes that the Imperium doesn't know about? In this
case, true, you won't have the information to be able to calculate misjump
distributions, but then a misjump has practically the same effect as the
original rule so this would seem to destroy the entire reason for the jump
rules change.

>I wouldn't inflict this type of fate of PCs since random death is not the
>way I like to game (unless their ship had adequate low berths and I wanted
>to throw them a few decades forward in time).

So then don't make it random. If you adjust the misjump probabilities so
they can catastophically misjump *only* with severe negative modifiers, you
get death only when PCs do something really stupid. I know there are those
who will disagree with me, but IMHO you are not doing PCs any favor by
letting them survive gross stupidity. It takes less than a single session
to roll up new characters, but changing the laws of physics to let PCs
survive their own stupidity can destroy an entire campaign.

>Sure, I would happily allow a ship to deliberately induce a jump mishap,
>but betting that this mishap will result in an actual misjump, of the
>proper distance, in the correct direction sounds pretty foolish to me,
>especially since you can end up dead.

No one suggested any such thing. You don't know the distance or direction
of any single misjump, just the probability distribution for misjump to
each system. And for repeated trials or large numbers of ships, that is
enough. You can send out sufficient ships to ensure whatever proportion of
ships you want at each destination. You won't know *which* ships go where,
but you will know the statistical proportion of ships at each destination.
And you will not likely end up dead, since the proposed misjump rules will
never jump you anyplace fatal, like the inside of a star or something.

>Travel through misjump sounds like something that simply wouldn't catch on
>except among the truly desperate or the truly stupid.

Now here *I* don't get you at all. Wasn't the point of this entire exercise
making misjump easier for players to survive? If it's easier for players to
survive won't it be easier for everyone to survive? Otherwise, the players
become multimillionaires by renting themselves as jump insurance.

If you make misjump safe to survive, then what you get is a form of jump
where you can travel dozens of parsecs using only fuel for a jump 1 which
is *safe to survive*.

Look, I have nothing against alternate jump rules; I don't use the
published T4 misjump rules myself. You asked for the logical consequences
of changing the misjump rules, so I told you. If you don't like the
consequences, change the rules again. For example, not allowing a ship to
misjump farther than its maximum jump rating would make the "deliberate
misjump" technique worthless, even if you could *guarantee* the jump
destination.
- --
Richard Hough
richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 19:34:28 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Questions about interstellar dust

>How do you get radiation from collision with neutral atoms (doesn't
>bremsstrahlung only occur with charged particles?).  Or is it thought
>that most of the interstellar hydrogen is charged?  
I was using radiation in the sense of "ionizing/harmful radiation"
rather than "electromagnetic radiation"; if a neutral wacks into you
at 99.9% of the speed of light, it'll damage the cell it hits, and/or
start a cascade of lesser particles which will each damage what they
hit, and so on; the electron is pretty irrelevant to the process.

>Also, I think
>Loren might want to know what you mean my "highly relativistic".
To be honest, I don't know myself what I mean by "highly relativistic",
though one could look up the usual tables of how far particles 
penetrate.

I think I'm somewhat inclined to back off my previous numbers on
interstellar dust density, though, and replace it with "I don't know";
my numbers make a good upper limit. 

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 11:03:37 +0800 (WST)
From: skribe <skribe@amber.com.au>
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage

On 26-May-98 Steve Rennell wrote:
> One of my players claimed to have seen something on TV 
> (yeah, great reference) about a tanker going missing, 
> believed pirated. Not a super-tanker, but none-the-less a 
> significant dollar investment. He believes the report said 
> it happened somewhere in South east asia.
> 
> Has anyone else seen reports of the same thing? [1]

It was an Australian flagged tanker and went missing off the coast of China. 
There have been several similar incidents around that area. One ship they
found in the Philippines, but most just simply disappear.
- ---
skribe <skribe@amber.com.au>

"When evil's afoot, and you don't have any arms, you've got to do a little
leg work. And when evil's ahead, and you're a little
 behind, you've got to stay hip. You've got to keep on your toes! You've got
to kick a little--"
- -The Tick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 98 22:06:07 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re:  [TTL] A modification to Eris' sensor rules

On 05/26/98 at 04:18 PM,  bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) said:

>>Something I have considered, but haven't worked the numbers out on, is
>>doubling the Sensor Sensitivities from FFS2 (I don't use .5's anyway)

>Not a bad idea; I don't like the 0.5's much either. Still, even with this,
>adding sensitivy and skill seems too much to me - remember that even a +1
>(old system) represents a hundred times as much hardware, a +2 is *ten
>thousand* times as much hardware - it's kind of like saying that a skilled
>person with a teaspoon can move as much water as an average person with a
>gallon bucket.

I think the skills will balance out, for one thing I envision most target
ships having some sort of jamming equipment aboard, to which an ECM skill
will be added, pretty much offsetting the sensor ops skill where ships are
concerned.

>Something like Ander's approach (successful skill role adds +1 or +2 to 
>sensor) or mine (a skilled individual can make a detection at signal=0
>while a poor operator needs signal=2) is probably more realistic - but of
>course it's all a matter of choice...

My way might not match your or Ander's approach for realism, but for *me*
it is simple to apply and reasonably realistic.  It's also more in keeping
with the way I handle tasks.  For example, doing it my way allows me to use
4d for detection, 5d for recognition, and 6d for identification with the
same target numbers (roll 4d, if the object is detected add a 5th die, if
it is recognized add a 6th die). 

IAC, if it doesn't work out, I'll have other approaches to try. ;->


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 19:23:52 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage

Hello,
>From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
>Subject: Re: Escort tonnage
...
>One of my players claimed to have seen something on TV 
>(yeah, great reference) about a tanker going missing, 
>believed pirated. Not a super-tanker, but none-the-less a 
>significant dollar investment. He believes the report said 
>it happened somewhere in South east asia.
>
>Has anyone else seen reports of the same thing? [1]

  Yep. It was also recovered in the region sans $3,000,000
net of cargo. Presumably this was the same vessel I read about
in either the May 5th or 12th Weekly Telegraph.

...
>the Web. I was rather interested in it, and wonder if 
>anyone else saw any details. Happened about 2 months ago.

  Well, another Weekly Telegraph (April?) item attributed
"verified" reports of Iran purchasing materiel and four
functional warheads from one of the Central Asian republics
to Israeli intel sources. Apparently happened several years
ago. It really makes you wonder how good the export controls
on nukes would be in the Imperium.

  I doubt they could stop the actual materials and warheads
from being sold. The more sophisticated det-laser components
would be a limiter, but the best defense would be occasional
close searches with radiation detectors and nuclear dampers.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 06:08:58
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: It came from the back of the Trav-box ...

>Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:23:02 -0700
>From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>Subject: Re: Profitable starships
>
>>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>Subject: Re: Profitable starships
>...
>>One of the ways I justify the very low Imperial pensions is by saying that
>>Imperial pensions are not subject to taxation by planetary governments. 
>>Perhaps the same applies to interstellar ships.
>
>  This could imply starport duty-free stores, and a provision for ex-
>Imperial services personnel to transport freely goods for personal use,
>otherwise they'd require huge amounts of paperwork to deal with getting
>tax credits past the local VAT, if that consumption tax functioned
>largely as the income tax.
>
>        Steven Hudson
>

My personal alternative is Imperial Pensions are paid, funnily enough, in
Imperial Credits. 20 years in the Navy for a pension of Cr4000 a year isnt
a good deal if you are an industrial worker on a hi-tech planet where
earnings are Cr10 000 a year and your local credit trades at parity with
the ICr. But it's a differenct story if you're from some TL8 dirtball where
average income is Cr 6000 a year and the local credit trades at three to
the Imperial.

Now, this also potentially gives you a set of nice class distinctions - the
officer classes will tend to be young nobles doing Their Bit for the
Imperium, while the NCOs and crew tend to be lifers from dirtballs in the
boondocks.

>Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 14:59:02 -0700
>From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
>Subject: existing ship designs?
>
>Does anyone have FFS2-compliant (or even SSDS/QSDS) errata-free designs for
>a relatively standard Free or Far Trader at TL-12 or 15? 
>
>Bruce

Try the Amerigo Vespucci class in the Exploratory Trader THUDDD - it's a
200 dton jump-2 freighter carried by a jump-3 mothership. Costs about MCr60
unarmed.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 19:28:03 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage

Hello,
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Escort tonnage
...
>It all depends on how many ships (which the Imperium buys new) it needs
>to use (along with man hourse and other costs) vs. the revenue of
>selling a ship used at auction....

  Precisely what is the relation of the auction cost and the cost
of the military vessels involved?

...
>I didn't know I had been required.  The pirates in the south china
>sea often used proper ships to stop and rob ships that hardly
>worth anything.  But, as I said, I think getting caught up in
>how thing operate in the late 20th century is a mistake and 
>back in history examples of what you are talking about are not
>hard to come by.

  They were, however, specifically limited by historical conditions.
You might note that under certain other conditions, _piracy did not
exist_ in any meaningful sense. It then follows that it might be
useful to compare the two sets of circumstances.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 08:16:10
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Tracy class Longship, as modified by Ditzammer Spofulam

Warning. Ditzie-speak and design system abuse follows.

>From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
>Subject: M: IW freighter
>
>The following is a standard merchant ship I have designed for the 
>Interstellar Wars period (using Andrew Akin's most wonderful 
>spreadsheet). I would greatly appreciate any comments (I have the 
>deckplans available).
>
>Gordon Tracy, Tracy class Longship (FF&S v2)
>Designed by Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
>Statistics
> Tons: 200std (SL Slab Hypersonic)
> Crew: 3/5
> Cargo: 98std (1x60m2 Door, Handling: 1x176ton)
> Volume: 2800m3
> Passengers High/Med: 0/5
> Cost: 38.012 MCr
> Mass (L/C): 3215t/1600t
> Passengers Low: 0
> Maintenance Points: 65
> Dimensions: 48.3m x 12.1m x 4.9m
> Troops/Science: 0/0
> Tech Level: 11
> Size: 8
> Frozen Watch: 0
>
>Electronics
> Controls: Dynamic, High automation. 3xComp (CM:1.0 CP:1.0). No
>           bridge.
> Communications: 1xRadio (50,000km, 0.02MW). 1xLaser (1,000AU,
>                 0MW).
> Sensors: 1xPEMS (12.5 [1.6mkm], 0MW). 1xAEMS (11 [0.16mkm],
>          0.5MW).
> Survey/Science:
> ECM:
> Signatures: Vis:-0.5, IR:0 (0 at 112MW,  0 at 12MW), Act:0.5, Neu:0, 
>             Grav:0
>
>Weaponry
> 1xLight Laser Turret (+0) 1/1-0-0-0 [3,50/7-3-2-1] (LR)
>
>Performance
> 1 Jump (20std/pc fuel)
> 0.9/1.8 Maneuver (Thruster: 70MW)
> 0.9/1.8 Contra-grav (39MW)
> 1711kph/3263kph Atmosphere (Criuse:1283kph/2447kph)
> 1 Power (Fission: 118MW, 1year)
> 0 Battery
> 20 Fuel (Scoop: 3 Purif: 8, 1MW)
> 0/5/5/0/0 Accomodations
> 130 Life Sup (Type: Extended, Normal food [stored])
> 1 G-Comp
> 
> 0 [20] Armor, 6 Structure
>
>Features
> 2 x Decontamination Airlock
> 1 x Ship's locker (0.1std ea.)
> 1 x Ordinary Galley (Cap: 10)			
>
>Crew Details
> 1 x Pilot
> 1 x Astrogator
> 1 x Engineer
> 1 x Gunner
> 1 x Medical
>
>One of the most enduring designs to come out of the Interstellar Wars,
>the Tracy class were a general purpose tramp freighter serving the
>many colonies of the Terran Confederation. The design outlasted the
>Confederation by a considerable margin, examples of the class were
>being constructed in the Solomani Rim well into the Long Night. The
>class contains most of the features that distingushed Terran merchant
>ships of this period. The most noticable is the single large cargo
>dual story cargo bay with its massive 12m x 5m cargo ramp. Other
>features common to most Terran merchants were: the single 2 ton turret
>mounting a triple 14.5Mj laser (this was the most common armarment
>used on Terran merchants during the Interstellar Wars). The closed
>loop extended life support system, giving the ship unlimited duration
>excluding food. The use of a small fission reactor instead of the
>large fusion reactors found in Vilani designs.

Uncie Hengiiiieee, I'm booooored.

That niiiiiiice Mr Threeeee Wood left work. Heeeeee wouldnt even give my
puppy-wuppy an iiiiiice cream. An an an weeeee saw him at wooooork without
a drinkie-winkie. And that sliiiiiimy Mr Packham has moved jobs yayayayay.
An an an an weeeere goanna lay chaaaaarges against that silly silly sillly
theeeater company-wompany. Preferably big bangy bangy bang-bang ones. And
we found all those contract-wontracts Purrrrchassing were trying to hide.

Weeeee got a new to-oy. It's a Tracey-wacey class Loooonghship.

But weeeeee didnt like it's being only jumpy-wumpy one, so weeeee
retro-wetro fitted a Jump-2 engine into it (which took another twenty-eight
cubic-wubic meters and massed another 84 tons and took the price-wicey up
by 8.4 megacwedits), an an an installed another twenny dtons of fueeel
tankage.

Weeee dont reckon you should only have weapons that just annoy the
taaaarget, so weeee put a twenny megajoule Meesie-weeesie gun slap bang
straight down the middle of it. It masses 45 tons, takes up twenny seven
cuuubic meters, costs two point two megacwedits. With fiiiive megawatts of
input it fires a shot every twenny seconds, an it has an effective range of
thiiiirty six thousand kilometerwometers an a short range of fifty thousand
kilometer womemeters. It's forty-eight meters long, an an an about twenny
five centimeters in waaaadius.

An an an my brain hurts from doin all this on a sliiiide rule, so we
installed a couple of cee-peeee two computers in in in it. They took up
four cuuubic meters an an an cost point one fiiive megacwedits. Weeee took
out four months of fission fuel to fit them in so we have one two threeeee
four five six seven eight left. They do all the booooring analysis for
maintainence and stuff too, an an an they help you point the meson-weson
gunnie-wunnie too.

After this, the Tracey=wacey class Looooongship costs about forty-eight
point niiiiiine megacwedits an an an it has lost twenny four deeeetons of
cargo-wargo an so it now has sevenny four. Plus five spare staaaaate rooms.
Weeeeee reckon you should charge people extra to fire the meson-weson gun.
An an an you could think about taking out the liiiiitttle laser-wasers and
putting in one big one. Or a couple of fusie-wusie guns for use in
aaaaatmospheres an on planetary surfaces an stuff.

If you dont wanna put in a real jumpie-wumpie driiiive and a real
gunnie-wunnie you could just rip thirty cuuubic meters of power-wower
plant. You dont neeeeeed 116 megawatts ... you need fifty one for the jump
drives, an you need seventy for the t-plates an an an call it ten for
everything else. So you neeeeed eighty megawatts of powwwwwwwowowower at
any one time. You've got one hunnerd and twelve, so you can put in a
fisssie-wissie power plant thirty-wirty cuuuubic meters smaller in an an an
save yourself three miiiiiillllion credits or so on sticker-wicker cost. An
you could lose the active-wactive sensor-wensor an save another million
cwedits. This should take the sticker-wicker price down to thirty-four an a
half megacwedits, aaaafter you install some reaaallly-real computer-wuters.

I'm goannna go sleeeeeeep now. 

Nighty night Uncie.

****************************************************************************
******

Wow. Now I know why I havent channeled Cousin Ditzie in so long.

Andrew, it's essentially a nice ship. Ditzie is right though - it needs
more guns, and either a bigger jump drive or smaller power plant. There
also should be a freezer for food storage and at least a couple of toilets.

I also dont like the weapon suite. IMO 13.5 megajoule lasers are pretty
useless in space - you need to be able to punch armour, not scratch it.

The Meson Gun is probably excessive, but what the heck. It'll be an awful
shock for someone who closes to capture ... I dont know how much radiation
damage a 20 MJ meson gun puts out, but a hit to the bridge or power plant
probably wouldnt do you much good at all.

The AEMS is a spare wheel without an upgraded weapons suite as well -
either upgrade and keep it, or lose it. You might think about losing the CG
as well, seeing how you can pull a streamlined gee in any case. Whats the
hull - crystaliron ? And does it have wings ?

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 06:53:24
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: It came from the back of the Trav-box ... can you rent the Navy ?

I am dead serious. Going through the Trav-box and re-reading all this stuff
about the number of Escorts needed for a convoy fearful of raider attacks,
I started thinking about Nelson, Collingwood (the admiral, not the footy
club), buying commissions and then the idea popped into my head ... why not
turn buying commissions on it's head, and have the Imperial Navy lease it's
units out to traders who feel in need for security.

At one fell swoop, the Imperium gets to raise some revenue painlessly, the
Fleet gets some excersise, private navies have less of a need to exist ('A
wolf is a dog that has missed three meals') and traders get protection.

Now the negatives are the possibilities of institutionalised corruption,
international incidents and the fact that you might get into a war and have
all your small units off doing other things and that opposing navies could
arrange to bushwhack one of your small units to get examples of your
technology.

The first problem is pretty endemic in the Navy anyway ("I dont mind what
you do, Mr Bosun, as long as you leave the anchor on the ship's bow" ...
think what a 1% rakeoff on the Kinuir contract would have been worth).

The second problem isnt that much of a problem, as long as you dont venture
outside your own territory.

The third problem is balanced by the fact that when the War breaks out the
escorted freighters arent going to be able to argue too much about getting
drafted.

The fourth problem could be balanced by using your obsolete units for this
job.

Ian Whitchurch 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 16:28:40
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Planned Precipitation Points - Pesky Pirates Pummelled

>Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 14:10:53 EDT
>From: CardSharks <CardSharks@aol.com>
>Subject: Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)
>
>>From T4.1
>
>BREAKOUT

>	The Planned Breakout Point. The course plotted by the Astrogator may include
>a predicted point for breakout. A successful jump will carry a ship to that
>predicted breakout point within about 100,000 km. Breakout points are commonly
>used in naval operations when maneuvers take ships to locations relatively
>removed from astral bodies.

If you can hit a point to +/- 200 000km in a system, then pirates are in
even more trouble. A world with any sort of defenses will notify
neighbouring worlds where the 'approved precipitation point' will be at any
given date, and put a couple of units there. As the mainworld moves around
in orbit, the 'approved precipitation point' moves with it, on a known course.

Ships therefore know where they have to aim for before they leave, and
since they will be arriving +/- 20 hours, you just need to aim at where the
APP will be in 168 or so hours.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 20:56:38 PDT
From: "Charles Li" <chaslimd@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller Release

GURPS Traveller is planned for release in July 1998, so plan on seeing 
it by the end of August.  The ifrst in a continuing series of G:T 
support, the Spinward Marches Sourcebook, will follow a few months 
later.

Help is on the way!

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 00:14:41 EDT
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: Space; 1889 license

Alan Nuss enquires:
>A friend told me that he was told at a gamming con that someone has the
>picked up the licence for GDW's Space:1889.  Does anyone know if this is true

If so, It is news to me. 

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 23:19:04 -0700
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Non-Trav Announcement

Pardon the interruption to your regularly scheduled Traveller talk, but
I have an important announcement for all of my friends and well-wisheres
here on the TML.

I FINISHED THE FIRST DRAFT OF MY SCREENPLAY!!!

For those of you who are interested, the story has changed quite
dramatically.  The last time I posted an update to this list (some four
or five months ago), I was making a film about vampires.

That has changed, for a number of reasons, but in a nutshell, I met with
a guy that does special effects.  I saw his demo tape.  Although it was
competent work, it looked cheap to me--kinda like what you'd see on Zena
or Hercules.  This is a low budget movie after all.

I didn't want my film to look like that, so I made a major decision at
the end of last January.  I went with one of the other script ideas I've
been developing.

This one's a drama--a love story of sorts.  It's about a guy who knew a
special girl back in high school.  She was incredible, and she was the
one that he still talks about to this day.

So, one day, fate strikes, and his best friend tells him that he's seen
her.  She's in town.  It's some 15 years since high school, but our main
guy, Conner, can't help himself.  His heart falls.  He has to make
contact with her.

And he does...and it is incredible...she's the girl of his dreams...they
have lunch...and that's when he finds out she's about to get married...

But, that's all I can tell you about it at this point.  It gets pretty
hairy from there.

What the next step?

If you know anything about writing, you'll know that good writing is
re-writing.  So that's where I'm at.  The first draft of a screenplay is
always crap--full of cliche's, boring scenes, plot holes, and things
that just don't make sense or do make for a crappy movie.

Most scripts go through several drafts before they are made
presentable.  This is not an easy task, and it is why there are so many
crappy movies out there.  Writing one of these things takes a lot of
time, effort, creativity, passion, blood, sweat, tears, emotional highs
and lows...and the list goes on.

Let's see.  I started writing this particular story in late
January/early February.  I've been on it about 3 mos.  Not bad.  The
average length of time it takes to write a first draft of a screenplay
by most writers is 3 mos.  I'm completely happy with what I've turned
out in the last three mos.

In this next stage of making this movie, things will go faster.  I now
have a "spine" of a story to make better.  It's always easier to take a
crappy movie and fix it into a good movie than it is to fill a blank
page with interesting visions.

The hardest part of writing the screenplay is over, but I still have a
lot of work to do.  After I've tooled the screenplay, fixing it up,
making it presentable and something that I won't be embarrassed to show
people, I'll pass it around to get feedback from family and
friends--people whose opinion I value.

How long will that take?

Well, not three months--but I don't know.  The script will be ready when
it is ready.  It's hard to rush the creative drive.  When you push too
hard, you don't tend to create--only slush out crap.

But, editing is always easier than creating, and that's what this next
step entails.

As always, I'll keep you posted.

Yes, I'm on schedule for actually filmming this movie before the year is
out.

It is happening.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #523
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 27 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 524



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Twain Class Free Trader (LONG includes ship stats)
Re: Misjumps?
Re: Misjumps?
Re: Starflight and aliens
Re: Misjumps?
Re: Sword World names
Piracy [long, not quite a rant ;> ]
Re: Transponders, and information transfer
20th Century piracy
Re: 20th Century piracy
Searching for T4.1 articles.
Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 00:53:07 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Twain Class Free Trader (LONG includes ship stats)

Ok, here for your distruction... er, distraction, is the Twain Class 200 ton
Free Trader. I designed it to provide a low cost adventureing type ship
for my players. And before you ask, I hven't really finished the SDB
design yet.. it was an excuse to lower the price somewhat, but I intend to
do them.

The stats were generated using Andrew's excellent spread sheet, as usual.
One point. I have full deck plans for the Twain in 1/2 inch scale (prints on 4 8.5x11
sheets) and I'm doing it up room by room in 1 inch scale. I'd really like to put them on
the web, but I don't have a lot of experience with HTML. I have web space available
with my ISP and AOL, so if anyone wants to help out let me know. I'm also thinking of
stuffing a number of designs and "clip art" on a CDR but I'm not sure of the
licensing. Would something like this be worth persuing an agreement with
Marc?

Anyway here are the stats...

Twain class Free Trader (FF&S v2)
Designed by Merlin Enterprises

Statistics
 Tons: 200std ( SL Long Box Hypersonic )
 Volume: 2800m3
 Mass (L/C): 2522t/1613t
 Dimensions: 28.2m x 14.2m x 7m
 Crew: 3/5
 Passengers High/Med: 0/6
 Passengers Low: 0
 Troops/Science: 0/0
 Frozen Watch: 0
 Size: 8
 Cargo: 62std (0/0 /Hdl:2x40ton)
 Cost: 43.875 MCr
 Maintenance Points: 69
 Tech Level: 12
Electronics
 Controls: Dynamic, Standard automation. 2xComp (CM:0.35 CP:2.86). No
bridge.
 Communications: 1xRadio (50,000km, 0.02MW). 1xLaser (1,000AU, 0MW).
 Sensors: 1xPEMS (12.5 [1.6mkm], 0MW). 1xAEMS (11 [.16mkm], 0.25MW).
 Survey/Science:
 ECM:
 Signatures: Vis:0.5, IR:0 (0 at 123MW, 0 at 16MW), Act:0.5, Neu:0, Grav:0
Weaponry
 2xLight Laser Turret (+0) 1/1-0-0-0 [1,50/28-15-8-4] (LR)
Performance
  1 Jump (20std/pc fuel)
  1.1/1.7 Maneuver (/Thruster:70MW)
  1.1/1.7 Contra-grav (48MW)
 2203kph/3346kph Atmosphere (/Crus:1652kph/2510kph)
  2 Power (/Fus:159MW,1yr )
  0 Battery
  41.7 Fuel (/Scoop:3 /Purif:6,4MW)
  0/5/3/0/0 Accomodations
  45 Life Sup. (/Ty:St,Gd)
  2 G-Comp
  0 [22] Armor, 9 Structure
Features
 2xAirlock
 2xShip's locker (0.1std ea.)
 1xOrdinary Galley (Cap:11)
Small Craft
 1xMinHgr (4std, 1 hatches)
Crew Details
 2xMnvr. 1xEngr. 2xGunn.

Converted from excess Sniper Class system defense boats (Missile Carriers) the
Twain Class Trader has proven to be a popular seller for those looking for
inexpensive cargo craft with long legs. Merlin Enterprises, in retro-fitting
the discontinued SDB's chose to leave the original Contra-Gravity drives
in place, while up-grading the original Heplar drives to Thrusters,
giving the Twain, not only exceptional inner-system manuverablitiy, but
system redundancy usually seen only on Mil-Spec vessels

The original fuel tankage was left intact but diverted to the retro-fitted Jump 1
generator. The tankage allows the Twain to perform 2, Jump 1's before refueling,
making it an excellent chose for Fringe area operations.

Merlin also chose to leave the twin light laser pop-up turrets in place. The unusual
system of a turret opeing to the upper surface and a second dropping down from the
lower surface gives the Twain a nearly globular fireing feild. They have also
proved their worth against unfreindly native "clients".

Both the 3 Large staterooms and the 5 smaller crew cabins (capable of double occupancy
with the 2 fold down bunks) feature fully retactable furnishings, a feature some owners
applaud as allowing the space to be used for carry-on cargo, when passengers are
unavailable.

As with all Merlin designs the twin cargo spaces (converted from the original missile
bays) are desigend to ustilize standard 3.85 ton cargo containers. The unusual tri-fold
hatches fold back in such a way as to expose the entire cargo compartmen on the top as
well as the sides, allowing cargo handling equipment easy access to the containers.

Replaceing the original life boat with a standard air-raft allows crews to operate easily
on lower tech level worlds, where modern transprotation is not normally available.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 22:48:08 -0700
From: "Brannon \"Ben\" Boren" <brannonb@blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

I think every GM has had his players ask at some point if they could
intentionally misjump, once they found out they had some kind of awful
price on their heads or such things. The distance that a misjump can put
between you and potential trouble is impressive.

However, I simply say that one of the possible outcomes of a misjump is
that you NEVER come out, and if you're willing to risk it...

It helps if at some point you toss in a random encounter with a ship from a
couple hundred years ago popping out of jump - its plant finally dead. The
players find the desicated remains of the crew, etc. They probably
committed suicide after some years trapped in jumpspace.

Nice imagery.

Ben

- --
Brannon "Ben" Boren
brannonb@blarg.net
http://www.mog.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 18:09:32 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

Date sent:      	Tue, 26 May 1998 22:48:08 -0700
From:           	"Brannon \"Ben\" Boren" <brannonb@blarg.net>
To:             	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject:        	Re: Misjumps?
Send reply to:  	traveller@MPGN.COM

> I think every GM has had his players ask at some point if they could
> intentionally misjump, once they found out they had some kind of awful
> price on their heads or such things. The distance that a misjump can put
> between you and potential trouble is impressive.

> However, I simply say that one of the possible outcomes of a misjump is
> that you NEVER come out, and if you're willing to risk it...

IMTU you can not "deliberately" misjump. You can increase the chance of a 
misjump (hit th go stud at 11 diameters is a good way), but that also increases 
your chances of going boom.

> It helps if at some point you toss in a random encounter with a ship from a
> couple hundred years ago popping out of jump - its plant finally dead. The
> players find the desicated remains of the crew, etc. They probably
> committed suicide after some years trapped in jumpspace.

I just point out quite clearly that the passage of time in jump and the passage 
of time in real space are different. Thus one could spend 6 days in jump only to 
find that 6000 years have passed or viceversa. That usually is enough to 
discourage the players.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++++ su+ ge

************************************************************
Of course its safe, I made it myself
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 02:29:05 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Starflight and aliens

Been meaning to reply to this...

I think it'd be best to explain the Elowan as "plant-like" rather than plants.
Still... it would be interesting to put them halfway between the K'kree and
3I.  Have them ask the 3I for help from hte "vicious cannibals."  I always
thought their "head fruit" reproduction was interesting though.  That being
the main reason for the animosity w/ the Thrynn (who consider "head fruit" to
be a delicacy).  Of course, Virus will make them all toast anyways... ; )

I always liked Star Control better than Starflight, though.  The Yehats, the
Chenjesu, the Alliance of Free Stars.  I'm contemplating doing a campaign
based on that background.  

A race that would be really cool for Traveller would be the Ur-Quan.
Subjugated by a psionic species and geneered into two varieties, one
philosopher and one warrior.  After overthrowing them (and driving them into a
fate worse than extinction),  the Kzer-za (the green ones) and the Kohr-ah
(black ones) decide they're never gonna be at the mercy of aliens again and
(the Kzer-za) proceed to subjugate other species (or put them behind a slave
shield if they won't become "Battle Thralls") or (the Kohr-ah) proceed to
"cleanse" the galaxy of life, destroying every race they come across,
spacefaring or no.  


Gary 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 23:34:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

Richard Hough <richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com> wrote:

>>Here, I don't agree with you at all.  You could end up going 1-36 parsecs
>>(equal chance of any) in any direction.

>Not true. If there are, for example, 100 large masses in misjump range
>coreward and 500 rimward, and one can only misjump to a large mass, then
>the chance of misjumping rimward is 5 times that of misjumping coreward.

Ah, that's where we disagree.  I'd roll 1D6 for direction, then the 1D6 &
1D6 for distance and look on the star chart.  The ship would then land on
the nearest object in that direction.  One consequence of this method is
that often near rifts the nearest destination is your starting point (ie
you pop out where you left a week later).  In any case, I'd not use any
direction biasing based on mass.  Instead, if I rolled Spinward and 20
parsecs away and the nearest star to that point was Spinward and 16
parsecs away, the PCs would end up Spinward and 16 parsecs away.  I'd also
always make the number of parsecs rolled a maximum (so if you rolls 36
parsecs and there was a star at 37 and one at 30 you'd end up at 30)
mainly because I'd like to keep the 36 parsec limit as an absolute
maximum.  Therefore, if you roll 8 parsecs and only star in that direction
is 9 parsecs away you end up back where you started from.  This method
also makes crossing rifts pretty difficult. 

>And you will not likely end up dead, since the proposed misjump rules will
>never jump you anyplace fatal, like the inside of a star or something.

I use the MT jump mishap rules.  On a non-hazardous (ie no unrefined fuel,
outside the 100 diameter limit) the rolls is 2-12

3-6: the ship is in jumpspace 1D6+4 days

7-10: the ship appears elsewhere in the system (which I'd rule as around
another planet, or around the sun if there are no other planets)

11+: misjump

15+: Ship destroyed (only posible for hazardous jumps where
mishaps roll 3D6)

So, deliberately instituting a non-hazardous jump mishap only lets you
misjump 1/12 of the time.  I like that system.  In any case, 11/12s of the
X-boats you mentioned being used to misjump messages around the Imperium
make their jump-1 to some other system.  So, to get a message to it's
destination more rapidly than jump-4 you have a 1/12 chance of a misjump X
a 1/6 chance of the appropriate direction, X a 28/36 chance of jumping
further than 4 parsecs.  That's a 1/92 chance.  Even if you say that
anything going in the rough direction you want to go works (ie the
direction you want to go in, and the hex face on either side of it) you
only end up with a 1/31 chance.  That's sending out *31* ships to get one
to the destination faster than jump 4.  I can't imagine that doing this
could possibly be feasible for anything other than an incredibly dire
emergency.  In the case of a *dire* enough emergency, this idea makes an
interesting option, which I sort of like. 

As for misjumps being dangerous or lethal if you make a Hazardous misjump
(poor engine maintenance, unrefined fuel, or within 100 diameters..).  you
roll 3D6 and on a 15+ your ship is destroyed.  Now, I'd never let that
roll apply to PCs making a desperate jump.  Instead, I'd give them a
misjump and have them arrive with slag instead of a jump drive (or perhaps
merely an empty space and mirror smoother sheered metal where it used to
be) but that's still many *millions* of megacredits of repairs even with a
kind GM who lets you live.  Hazardous misjumps have a 10% chance (15+ on
3D6) of either killing you or being so expensive you'll likely have to
sell your ship (especially since if there is evidence of a deliberate
attempt to misjump your insurance (if you have it) will definitely not
pay.  So, while many of the X-boats making hazardous jumps would end up
making actual misjumps 1/10 of them would either be destroyed or have junk
for a jump drive, either alternative being an unacceptable loss. 

Thanks, I have the ideas for this type of jump system firmed up quite
a bit now.


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 19:13:31 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Sword World names

> At 04:56 PM 26/05/98 +0200, Hans Rancke wrote:
> >Flamberge       One of Piper's Sword Worlds.

I think it's a type of two handed sword with a wavy blade. 
Used by landsknecht mercenaries to hack at the heads of 
pikes to make them less dangerous before charging into the 
midst of a pike block and causing severe constanation.

Steve


 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 01:36:36 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Piracy [long, not quite a rant ;> ]

One issue seemingly overlooked is the 3i's stance on inter-member warfare:
No CBR and no massive civilian targeting, and it's legit, or at least
tolerated (see striker, The Traveller Adventure, many amber zone scenarios
from both JTAS and Challenge, Supplements 8 &/or 11, especially entry on
rules of warfare).

Essentially, at least in the late 3rd Imperium, inter member warfare is
seen as a safety valve, p[rovided it doesn't get out of hand. So are
limited trade-wars. Most "Pirates" are actually going to be privateers,
going from brushfire war to brushfire war, armed with letters of Marque,
and "Enforcing" blockades...

EG: Anthrax and Botulina go to war against each other. Only resources
allowed under the Rules of War are local system's fleets and armies, and
any mercs (ground or space) they hire and flag. The Navy of Anthrax is
going to be augmenting the local defense with starmercs (pirates under
direct contract) and offering letters of marque to allow other
pirates/corsairs/starmercs to harrass shipping to Botiulina... The
Botulinas will be doing the same... and corsairs in both systems will be
preying on anyone who's taking the increased risks.

The question becomes one of why allow them in YOUR system? Frees up you
warships, provides "popcorn" which can help rescue crews, and also allows
you to get the captured cargos, if you word the letter right. Plus the
natural tendancy to spend the loot on your world, if they show proof of
action, plus additional shipping, plus they will be busy rubbing out the
enemies' pirates/starmercs in order to get back to base, especially if you
provide free unrefined fuel and really cheap refined fuel, plus constant
aids to getting your own shipping through the blockades.

ANd what do the sector and subsector and imperial fleets do? Keep
transponders up and radios listening... and eradicate anyone who breaks the
rules. Ruthlessly, mercilessly, and quickly.

The benefits to the imperial government are as follows: many more troops
subject to war mobilization have real combat experience, and little
infrastructure is actually destroyed, due to targeting limitations.
Violations result in MarDivs and AssaultRons taking over, and
"Re-adjusting" the local government. Pirates also provide a naval reserve
(see Hard Times), as they can be pulled in to naval service. Small, yes.
Noticeable? not really. Economic damage? Limited.

I envision the standard pirate matching up to a merchant, and saying "Gimme
your cargo and then GO AWAY! If you resist, we'll attack, if you cooperate,
all non-involveds get to move along, no hassles. Otherwise.... Charlie,
what's the status on the fusion barbette? Is it locked on yet? Well
Beowulf, what ya say?" Probably take the cargo, any weapons (or at least
key but inexpensive components for mounts), any mercs inbound to the
blockaded world, and any local military personell, then jump back to sell
the cargo and refuel. If most pirates don't "Prize out" the target vessel,
then most merchants are gonna simply back off til the war ends, and the
rest are running it for the increased value of a blockaded market.

If a war goes on too long (IMTU, 13 months), the navy will intervene. If
it's declared, but only limited privateering, it may be ignored. If major
civilian casualties occur, or neutrals are sacked, or CBR is invloved,
Imperial retribution is FAST, massive, and TOTAL. Remeber: all Imperial
Marine used MBT's lack the ability to do limited damage; RPY's are
unsubtle, and in a planetary well, are comparable to ramparts in firepower.
WhenGrav Tanks come at you, streaming fusing death, and troops drop off
with them, a MarDiv can be frightening... especially with a CruRon for
Ortillery. Not as effective as <author is ducking behind cover> 0.6C
asteroids, but far more intimidating. When intervention occurs, troops
surrender or die.

Piorates who lack a convinient conflict will alternate between Mechantile,
Starmerc, and actual "Piracy of Convinience"; the claiming as prize any
ship you happen to help, usually by the expedient of having a buddy jump
him, you "Render assistance", preferably after the poor schmoe is streaming
atmosphere, take everyone aboard your craft (in a guarded bay), and drop a
prize crew aboard... they rendevouz with your buddy, who helps repair, you
take it to a convinient world, and sell it at auction as salvage.

BTW, IMTU, it IS required to at least acknowledge a Signal
GK/SOS/MAYDAY/PAN call. (For the un-initiated, Pan-Pan-Pan means "Help, I'm
lost, gime a fix on where I am." (or as has occured more than once in my
campaigns, When & Where....)

And, in the "Real World (tm)", it is not uncommon for japanese and american
factory vessels (FV's) to exchange small arms fire over who gets the
trawler catches just beyond US territorial waters, and in the "Disputed
Zone" (as many local commercial fisherman call it; that area beyond the
internationally standard limit but within US claimed limit...). Once to
twice a year. Coast Guard actually sunk a japanese FV a few years back...
the Japanese mistook a cutter for a US FV, and opened fire... and the
warning shot hit the FV. No lives lost, and only 4 paragraphs in the local
paper.


William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 00:33:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Transponders, and information transfer

In mail you write:

> Tue, 26 May 1998 00:41:07 -0700, "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>>What it also  means is that you don't need super-dooper
>>high tech Sensors to track people well enough to be Space
>>Traffic control.
>
> I don't see a need for space traffic control out past sensor
> range.  Space just gets too big too fast as you move away
> from a planet to need it.  If someone could show that a busy
> system like Regina needs to track ships all the way in from
> 100 diam to prevent collisions, I would think that such
> systems would require an active tracking signal (though
> my guess one would just use a radio signal rather than have
> a seperate box).  However, this would an _enourmous_ amount
> of traffic.

One big difference between air traffic and space traffic is that if you
lose power, you keep right on moving. And that can be *quite*
dangerous. Consider the damage even a small ship can cause at speeds as
low as 20 km/sec. 100 tons (mass) at 21 km/sec is roughly equvalent to
a 5 kiloton nuke.

You *want* to keep track of where ships are. And I rather suspect that
traffic regulations will forbid any course that intercepts the planet
or any space habitats (except during the last bit of a landing or
docking manuever). They'll also be unhappy about any course that would
intercept such if you suddenly cut power. Due to the way orbits work,
this last class is a *lot* more restrictive.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 14:24:54 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: 20th Century piracy

David P. Summers writes:

>Tue, 26 May 1998 16:22:56 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen
><rancke@diku.dk>
>>What I assume is that if some authority becomes aware that there is a multi-
>>million credit ship out there that they have a perfect excuse for seizing
>>and confiscating, then simple greed will make them willing to expend a lot
>>of man-hours tracking down said ship.
> 
>It all depends on how many ships (which the Imperium buys new) it needs
>to use (along with man hourse and other costs) vs. the revenue of
>selling a ship used at auction....

And I repeat: I _assume_ that if there is a ship out there worth at least a
few million credits (and if it's a functioning starship capable of capturing
a merchant, then it is worth quite a few million credits), then simple greed
will make tmen willing to spend a lot of resources on tracking it down. It
really makes little difference whether it is 10 or 20 million credits that's
involved. Your counter-assumption that people _wouldn't_ be interested in
tracking down such a million-credit bonanza is a perfect example of the
kind of assumption that I find... implausible, to say the least. 
 
>>I do agree that IMO any pirate lucky enough to actually capture a ship
>>would be daft to leave it behind.
> 
>You misunderstood.  I think it is quite possible that a pirate would
>leave the ship behind if the difference in getting caught was enough.

But the difference isn't enough. The value of the pirate's ship alone
would provide an incentive to track him down. And as has been pointed out
before, by restricting himself to the cargo, the pirate either has to
make a _lot_ of captures to make a living or he has to intercept
especially valuable cargoes. Both alternatives entail problems that are
close to insoluble. (And that's more than just an opinion (though
admittedly less than a fact), because the difficulties were brought up
in the previous round of the discussion and not refuted).

>I also see the rewards as making taking the ship too hard to pass up
>(though this kind of piracy would be less frequent). I guess I can see
>it going either way pretty easily....

You know, I've just realize the fallacy in your claim that it is all a
matter of assumptions and that while we, your opponents, can't prove our
assumptions are correct, you can't prove that yours are either. It is this:
You don't have to prove that your assumptions definitely apply. Pirates are
part of the Traveller background, so if a set of assumptions that makes
piracy plausible exists, those assumptions must be considered to apply,
as long as they make sense. You (or any other pro-piracy proponent) just
have to present us with a set of assumptions that 1) are reasonable,
2) don't create more conflict with established Traveller canon than they
solve, and 3) makes regular piracy possible. If you can do that, you have
proven that regular piracy in the Traveller Universe is possible.

>>You still haven't provided me with an example of an act of piracy in recent
>>time when the pirates were using a ship of equal or greater value than the
>>prey to run down and capture its victim. Modern day piracy does exist, but
>>it is not analogous to the kind of piracy portrayed in various Traveller
>>modules.
> 
>I didn't know I had been required.

Well, not you specifically, but I have several times asked the pro-piracy
people to come up with examples.

>The pirates in the south china sea often used proper ships to stop and rob
>ships that hardly worth anything.

From what I have heard, piracy nowadays use small speedboats to close with
their prey.

>But, as I said, I think getting caught up in how thing operate in the late
>20th century is a mistake and back in history examples of what you are
>talking about are not hard to come by.

No argument there! My argument is that conditions in deep space, where there
are no convenient bays to hide in, is a lot closer to the conditions on the
high seas in the 20th Century than to conditions at sea in any previous
century. But you're right in saying that 20th Century wet sailing is not a
perfect analogy for space travel. That's why I don't believe that 20th
Century piracy is any proof that piracy is possible in deep space.


Steve Rennell writes:

>One of my players claimed to have seen something on TV (yeah, great
>reference) about a tanker going missing,  believed pirated.

Yes, but did it say how it got captured? Did a privately owned destroyer
intercept it on the high seas and put a shot across its bows, demanding
that it surrender?

Nevertheless, I have to back down a little. Several people responded
with examples of yachts that had been attacked by other yachts. That
certainly corresponds to what I asked for. It was poorly phrased. IMO
pirates as they are portrayed in Traveller are using the equivalent of
navy gunboats at the very least, not the equivalent of pleasure yachts.

So when was the last time you heard of an armed ship chasing down a
merchant ship and capturing it?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 06:57:56 -0700
From: Jefff Brissette <listuser@link-11.com>
Subject: Re: 20th Century piracy

> You know, I've just realize the fallacy in your claim that it is all a
> matter of assumptions and that while we, your opponents, can't prove our
> assumptions are correct, you can't prove that yours are either. It is this:
> You don't have to prove that your assumptions definitely apply. Pirates are
> part of the Traveller background, so if a set of assumptions that makes
> piracy plausible exists, those assumptions must be considered to apply,
> as long as they make sense. You (or any other pro-piracy proponent) just
> have to present us with a set of assumptions that 1) are reasonable,
> 2) don't create more conflict with established Traveller canon than they
> solve, and 3) makes regular piracy possible. If you can do that, you have
> proven that regular piracy in the Traveller Universe is possible.
 
Well I'm going to try to take a stab at this one. 
First Piracy in the Traveller can only occur in areas that supply the political
and economic reality to make it happen.

For a pirate to be successful he must have a port that he can go to sell his goods
as well as repair any battle damage without any questions asked. Another words he 
needs a secure base of operations. In games terms this likely to be government 0
with a 3 or lower law level  and a C or above startport. This place is likely to 
have several systems within say within 2-3 parsecs of this base. Even meeting these 
requirements does not mean its a pirate den, Just that the local authorities are less 
likely to ask questions and be able to provide the repair, maintance and market for 
a pirates ill gotten goods.
Actually in the Spinward Marches only about 4 or 5 worlds even provide a likely haven for
would be long term pirates: Thanber, Tremous Dex,Trexalon,and Debarre.

As to ship types for Pirates,  to avoid undo attention, they most likely be armed merchant
craft, although it was mention once in A CT book that a Express Boat tender was used by 
pirates because of it 600 ton internal docking bay, that they used to swallow a ship. I myself 
remain a bit dubious of these since only unarmed vessels or disabled could be captured in this
way.

The last assumption one has to make is that one a few pirates operate any region, say one or two.
Any more than that, and the authorities would find it more than worth thier while to expend massive
amounts of energy to hunt down pirate that have disrupted the local trade too much and caused
merchants to avoid the area.


I for one believe that piracy is possible, but not any massive scale. (except maybe in Vargr space)
and certain not with anything that looks like an imperial warship.

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 1998 10:45 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Searching for T4.1 articles.

Howdy all,

I'm searching for the articles MM posted from the T4.1 draft.
I don't suppose someone has them handy (or even references
to them)?

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 10:49:13 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)

>On 05/26/98 at 05:29 PM,  TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com> said:
>
>>> [Marc Miller said] Bands are 50,000 km space combat range bands.
>
>>Why not return to 30,000 km range bands/hexes?  It'll fit better w/
>>previously published material, as well as fit nicely w/ Brilliant Lances
>>and Battle Rider (the best Traveller space combat systems yet published).
>
>That's what I'm going to be using for tactical level space movement/combat.
>Light seconds make sense, to me, for measurement of general space movement
>and .1LS (30,000) for the tactical level, and I think it works as you go
>lower too.

[skip to the "Conclusion" at bottom if you do not care about my thought
processes.]

First, "Range Bands" *used to* refer to *geometrically increasing* range
bands, not units of measure which are consistent; So if you opened the
range by one band your ship moved from the 10,000km range "band" to the
100,000km range band (for example).  This termminology was used with the CT
"conceptual" combat system, where there was no physical manuvering (like on
a board, as in BL), only increasing or decreasing ranges.

I assume here we are using "range bands" to refer to a fixed distance, and
so are actually using them like "hexes" on a map-board.  They can still be
used like the CT conceptual combat system, but with fixed increments.

When we have used a vector based movement system, 1G allowed a change in
vector equivalent to altering the velocity of a ship one hex per turn in a
given direction.  With this system (which is the best compromise between
reality and game play I have seen), one hex needs to be the distance
travelled in one game turn at 1G.

So hex size (if that's what we're talking about) is, In my opinion, based
on the length of a combat turn.

20 minutes is an oft used duration;

10 m/s/s for 20 minutes (1200 sec)

d=1/2 at^2
(d=distance in meters, a = accelleration in meters/sec, t=time in sec)

(last time I tried to do this I got a lot of corrections; I hope you're all
checking this one too!)

d=1/2 * 10 * 1200^2

d=7.2 million meters = 7200 km.

Strange, I thought we were using 30,000km hexes...Let's try 1/2 hour and 1
hour rounds;

1/2 hour; d=1/2 * 10 * 1800^2

d=16,200 km

1 hour; d=1/2 * 10 * 3600^2

d=64,800 km

So where did my 30,000 km hexes come from?

using 50,000km hexes and solving for time (t);

50,000,000=1/2 * 10 * t^2 so;

50,000,000/(1/2)/10=t^2

10,000,000=t^2

Sqrt(10000000)=t

t=3,162 sec = ~53 minutes

Anyway, 50,000km 'bands' works out to about 50 minute combat turns, if the
vector based movement system is used.  I would encourage using this system,
but that might fit better with either 16,000km range bands or 65,000 km
range bands (and corresponding length combat turns) rather than 50,000km
range bands.

Of course, it's pretty moot.  The system I was using worked just fine with
us believing we could move 30,000km in one combat turn, and weapons had
ranges in hexes anyway.  As long as the system is internally consistent.
Still, as a "hard" sci-fi game the travel time of a ship in combat is
important.

One could even argue for 1 hour combat turns with 50,000km range bands by
rationalizing that a starship is always evading, spinning to bring
batteries to bear, plenty of off-axis movement to burn that other 7 minutes
or so.

Conclusion; 50,000 km bands or hexes work for me, but only if they are
accompanied by 1 hour combat turns.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #524
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Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 27 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 525



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

misjumps
Re: 20th Century piracy
Re: [TTL] A modification to Eris' sensor rules
Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)
Re: Misjumps?
New Scientific Field
Re: It came from the back of the Trav-box ... can you rent the   Navy ?
Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)
20th Century piracy (fwd)
Re: 20th Century piracy
Re: Misjumps?
RE: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)
Re: Planned Precipitation Points - Pesky Pirates Pummelled
Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)
RE: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)
Re: Transponders, and information transfer
RE: 20th Century piracy
Re: 20th Century piracy
Re: 20th Century piracy
RE: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)
Glisten Subsector
Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 15:53:14 +0100
From: Hugh Foster <HughFoster@Servisair.co.uk>
Subject: misjumps

>> >The next time I run Traveller it  >occurred to me that since I don't
much like the idea of misjumps into  >empty space I might institute a
rule where ships can *only* exit 100  >diameters from some large body
(say a planet, sun, or a moon at least  >several 100 km in diameter).
<<

The problem with this house rule is microjumps. It is an established
military tactic to try and fool the enemy by doing a Jump-1 and going
somewhere else in the system (or in other words, on a long curve back to
where you started). 

If these have to be within 100 diameters they will be a bit predictable.
The whole nature of system defence and space combat would be changed. 

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]
| Hugh Foster                                 100326,446       |
| Internet:                        hughfoster@servisair.co.uk |
| I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather... not         |
| screaming in terror like the passengers in his car.          |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 09:54:50 -0500 (CDT)
From: Alan Peery <peery@io.com>
Subject: Re: 20th Century piracy

On Wed, 27 May 1998, Jefff Brissette wrote:

> For a pirate to be successful he must have a port that he can 
> go to sell his goods as well as repair any battle damage without 
> any questions asked. Another words he  needs a secure base of 
> operations. In games terms this likely to be government 0 with 
> a 3 or lower law level  and a C or above startport. 

An alternate scenario: Pirates have taken over a base intended for
long-term support of system SDB in the event of a major war.  This
base will provide them the majority of the supplies they need to keep
a ship running while they raid.  This is a very lucky find on their
part, and they can fill up the cargo holds with loot, and only take
the best of the lot when it's time to leave the area...

Alan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 09:07:16 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: [TTL] A modification to Eris' sensor rules

 
> system) represents a hundred times as much hardware, a +2 is *ten thousand*
> times as much hardware - it's kind of like saying that a skilled person with a
> teaspoon can move as much water as an average person with a gallon bucket.
> 
> Something like Ander's approach (successful skill role adds +1 or +2 to 
> sensor) or mine (a skilled individual can make a detection at signal=0 while
> a poor operator needs signal=2) is probably more realistic - but of course
> it's all a matter of choice...
 
Yeah, this makes a lot more sense--a skilled operator is making
better use of _something_ rather than suggesting that a skilled user
can make something out of _nothing_.

Of course I'm a heretic in the other direction :-)


- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 11:20:36 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)

Marc Miller said;
>Natural Safeguards. The physics of jump space force a ship out of jump space
>when it crosses the 100-Diameter Sphere. As a result, a ship cannot exit jump
>space within a world, planetoid, star, or even another ship.

This is interesting to me.  Does this mean that a person (maybe a person
who is "legally challenged") sit along the direct route from one busy port
to another and force ships out of jumpspace.

Now, I know space is big, and a ship would need to be very lucky to be
within a few hundred meters of where a ship in jump is passing by, but
perhaps there are ways of maximizing the chances of interception;  very
busy ports, for one.

I was also thinking that gravitic technology should be able to produce a
device that causes a big "gravity focus" which could, conveivably, serve
the same purpose.

Then there's the idea of strapping a manuver drove to a relatively large
object (asteroid or cometary body) and pushing it into the starlanes (time
consuming, but possible with reactionless thrust).

All relatively unusual, but good adventure possibilities.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 11:24:32 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

>Ah, that's where we disagree.  I'd roll 1D6 for direction, then the 1D6 &
>1D6 for distance and look on the star chart.  The ship would then land on
>the nearest object in that direction.  One consequence of this method is
>that often near rifts the nearest destination is your starting point (ie
>you pop out where you left a week later).  In any case, I'd not use any
>direction biasing based on mass.  Instead, if I rolled Spinward and 20
>parsecs away and the nearest star to that point was Spinward and 16
>parsecs away, the PCs would end up Spinward and 16 parsecs away.  I'd also
>always make the number of parsecs rolled a maximum (so if you rolls 36
>parsecs and there was a star at 37 and one at 30 you'd end up at 30)
>mainly because I'd like to keep the 36 parsec limit as an absolute
>maximum.  Therefore, if you roll 8 parsecs and only star in that direction
>is 9 parsecs away you end up back where you started from.  This method
>also makes crossing rifts pretty difficult. 

I am curious where in the rules it states that a misjump, or regular jump
for that matter, has to terminate near some sort of massive object.

I always thought it was a d6 for direction, a d6 for the amount of dice,
and then the amount generated by those dice for distance.

Later,

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 10:22:43 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: New Scientific Field

The following was taken from an article by spaceViews News. I thought
it might add a little background color to how businesses would exist
in a Travelleresque future. The entire article is rather interesting and
can be found at:  http://www.spaceviews.com/1998/05/19b.html

- -- quote --

NASA Announces Virtual Astrobiology Institute

Researchers from 11 universities and institutions will form the core of a new
"virtual institution" dedicated to study of the emerging field of astrobiology,
NASA announced Tuesday, May 19.

The Astrobiology Institute will bring together scientists from a wide range of
disciplines -- from geology and  astronomy to chemistry and biology -- to
study the formation of life in our solar system and the universe, a key
component of NASA's Origins Program.

"These initial members of NASA's Astrobiology Institute will be at the
forefront of the increasingly important link between astronomy and biology,"
said NASA administrator Dan Goldin.

Research conducted at this institute will range from the chemical and
biological issues regarding the formation of life to the formation and
characteristics of habitable worlds around other stars.

- -- end quote --

BTW, the Web sites for this relatively new scientific field are:

http://astrobiology.arc.nasa.gov/ and
http://www2.astrobiology.com/astro/

Although the first (NASA's) is still heavily under construction, the
second
one actually has some "meat" to it.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 11:35:45 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: It came from the back of the Trav-box ... can you rent the Navy ?

>I am dead serious. Going through the Trav-box and re-reading all this stuff
>about the number of Escorts needed for a convoy fearful of raider attacks,
>I started thinking about Nelson, Collingwood (the admiral, not the footy
>club), buying commissions and then the idea popped into my head ... why not
>turn buying commissions on it's head, and have the Imperial Navy lease it's
>units out to traders who feel in need for security.

[I've always liked the idea of a "Hornblower-esque" Imperial Navy]

something confuses me a bit about this; isn't it the duty of the Imperial
Navy to protect merchant shipping?

I guess it depends on how things work in your traveller Universe, but I
would expect all those Navy owned destroyer escorts and close escorts to be
escorting merchants already, or hanging out at jump point in prime
territory.  Of course the navy is also patrolling the borders, conducting
exercises, refitting, training, shore-leaving, etc, etc, and is not always
available at the request of a merchant captain travelling in uncertain
areas in troubled times.

I certainly wouldn't expect it to be for sale.  At least not above the table.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 17:36:30 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)

On Wed, 27 May 1998, Peter H. Brenton wrote:

> Marc Miller said;
> >Natural Safeguards. The physics of jump space force a ship out of jump space
> >when it crosses the 100-Diameter Sphere. As a result, a ship cannot exit jump
> >space within a world, planetoid, star, or even another ship.
> 
> This is interesting to me.  Does this mean that a person (maybe a person
> who is "legally challenged") sit along the direct route from one busy port
> to another and force ships out of jumpspace.
> 
> Now, I know space is big, and a ship would need to be very lucky to be
> within a few hundred meters of where a ship in jump is passing by, but
> perhaps there are ways of maximizing the chances of interception;  very
> busy ports, for one.
> 
> I was also thinking that gravitic technology should be able to produce a
> device that causes a big "gravity focus" which could, conveivably, serve
> the same purpose.
> 
> Then there's the idea of strapping a manuver drove to a relatively large
> object (asteroid or cometary body) and pushing it into the starlanes (time
> consuming, but possible with reactionless thrust).
> 
> All relatively unusual, but good adventure possibilities.
> 
> Pete
> 

And we have just found a nice way for pirates to operate :-)


Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 98 18:17 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: 20th Century piracy (fwd)

Moin Hans Rancke-Madsen,

> And I repeat: I _assume_ that if there is a ship out there worth at least a
> few million credits (and if it's a functioning starship capable of capturing
> a merchant, then it is worth quite a few million credits), then simple greed
> will make tmen willing to spend a lot of resources on tracking it down. It
> really makes little difference whether it is 10 or 20 million credits that's
> involved. Your counter-assumption that people _wouldn't_ be interested in
> tracking down such a million-credit bonanza is a perfect example of the
> kind of assumption that I find... implausible, to say the least. 

	As we had everything some time ago - my argument :

	In a stable and secure area piracy is IMPOSSIBLE.  Most
	fortunate every mainstream traveller setting published,
	was a frontier condition. The only execption is perhaps
	the TNE-Regency. If pirates are operating on a frontier
	its easy to sell ship's on the other side. The sword world
	had been known as a pirate heaven in CT, the Wilds had
	been known to host more pirates than traders in MT. Virus
	and TED's often act as pirates in TNE, and the 3I had
	only a size of half a subsector in T4.

	So piracy is impossible, exept in those circumstances where
	roleplaying makes fun. Even if piracy is impossible in 99%
	of the 3I. Traveller picked the 1% of spacetime where it
	was possible, or even likely to encounter a pirate. And where
	is was easyer to make a living as a pirate, than as a trader.
	Perhaps this is related to the Burgess lesson :

	" The good is only good if the bad is possible. "
- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 09:50:33 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: 20th Century piracy

...
>So when was the last time you heard of an armed ship chasing down a
>merchant ship and capturing it?

  Gee, wasn't there a fishing dispute with Spain off the East Coast
a couple of years ago? :>  Seriously, even the Mayaguez (?) incident
was really state action. I'm assuming you mean a "ship with integral
[serious] armament", rather than a ship with a bunch of armed semi-
literates on board.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 10:51:58 -0700
From: "Brannon \"Ben\" Boren" <brannonb@blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Misjumps?

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> I just point out quite clearly that the passage of time in jump and the passage
> of time in real space are different. Thus one could spend 6 days in jump only to
> find that 6000 years have passed or viceversa. That usually is enough to
> discourage the players.

Ah, but so much more evil if you do it the other way around - they might
spend 6,000 years in Jump Space while only 6 days pass in realtime.  ;)

Ben

- --
Brannon "Ben" Boren
brannonb@blarg.net
http://www.mog.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 11:36:52 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)

>Now, I know space is big, and a ship would need to be very lucky to be
>within a few hundred meters of where a ship in jump is passing by, but
>perhaps there are ways of maximizing the chances of interception;  very
>busy ports, for one.
>
>I was also thinking that gravitic technology should be able to produce a
>device that causes a big "gravity focus" which could, conveivably, serve
>the same purpose.
>

This sounds a lot like the Imperial "Interdictor" class starships from Star
Wars.  They generate a huge gravity well that drags ships out of hyperspace,
and prevents ships from entering hyperspace.

Not knowing FFS very well, would it be possible to design such a vessel in
Traveller?  Even a very small field could be enough to prevent a nearby ship
from escaping via jump.

Brian

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 12:22:02 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Planned Precipitation Points - Pesky Pirates Pummelled

Tue, 26 May 1998 16:28:40, Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
> If you can hit a point to +/- 200 000km in a system, then pirates are in
> even more trouble. A world with any sort of defenses will notify
> neighbouring worlds where the 'approved precipitation point' will be at any
> given date, and put a couple of units there. As the mainworld moves around
> in orbit, the 'approved precipitation point' moves with it, on a known course.

Well, the question of regulated places to jump in and out system have
been discussed to death and I won't touch that.  One thing that was
not discussed in the last system is that, if an orbital world
is moving at 30 km/sec, coming out of jump a day early or late
can leave you further out from the world than intended, so you
also have to consider time variations.  This will be greater
if the stars at each end of the trip have a significant 
relative velocity....
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 15:20:16 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)

Brian Mays wrote:

> >Now, I know space is big, and a ship would need to be very lucky to be
> >within a few hundred meters of where a ship in jump is passing by, but
> >perhaps there are ways of maximizing the chances of interception;  very
> >busy ports, for one.
> >
> >I was also thinking that gravitic technology should be able to produce a
> >device that causes a big "gravity focus" which could, conveivably, serve
> >the same purpose.
> >
>
> This sounds a lot like the Imperial "Interdictor" class starships from Star
> Wars.  They generate a huge gravity well that drags ships out of hyperspace,
> and prevents ships from entering hyperspace.
>
> Not knowing FFS very well, would it be possible to design such a vessel in
> Traveller?  Even a very small field could be enough to prevent a nearby ship
> from escaping via jump.
>

Actually I was pondering the same thing earlier...If you throw out a "Gravity
Net" in line with a common trade route, the ship would pass into this artificial
100 diameter limit and precipitate out of jumpspace far enough away from
planetary defenses that pirates could seize it. The "Gravity Net" could also
slow down the ship, making for easier pickings.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 12:30:57 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: RE: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)

At 11:36 AM 5/27/98 -0700, you wrote:

>This sounds a lot like the Imperial "Interdictor" class starships from Star
>Wars.  They generate a huge gravity well that drags ships out of hyperspace,
>and prevents ships from entering hyperspace.
>
>Not knowing FFS very well, would it be possible to design such a vessel in
>Traveller?  Even a very small field could be enough to prevent a nearby ship
>from escaping via jump.

According to the MT Referee's Companion, at TL21 you get the Jump Projector
and Jump Damper.  the first forces a ship into misjump by forming a jump
field around it.  The second comes in two flavors.  First is a defensive
screen to guard against a JP, the second a weapon to prevent ships from
jumping out.

It should be noted the j-drive is pretty passe by TL21, having been
replaced by starship sized portals for unlimited-range jumps.


- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 12:39:33 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Transponders, and information transfer

Wed, 27 May 1998 00:33:35 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
Erickson)
> > I don't see a need for space traffic control out past sensor
> > range.  Space just gets too big too fast as you move away
> > from a planet to need it.  If someone could show that a busy
> > system like Regina needs to track ships all the way in from
> > 100 diam to prevent collisions, I would think that such
> > systems would require an active tracking signal (though
> > my guess one would just use a radio signal rather than have
> > a seperate box).  However, this would an _enourmous_ amount
> > of traffic.

> One big difference between air traffic and space traffic is that if you
> lose power, you keep right on moving. And that can be *quite*
> dangerous. Consider the damage even a small ship can cause at speeds as
> low as 20 km/sec. 100 tons (mass) at 21 km/sec is roughly equvalent to
> a 5 kiloton nuke.

Well, I'm not sure how often Traveller ships simply loose power.  In my
campaign this is very rare.  In any case,  sensor range is ample for 
detecting such ships (and ships that loose power far our are actually going
to be likely to miss theplanet) or you could simply have ships check in every
hour (though a lot of this might easily be like prohibiting jets from flying
over populated areas in cast they suddenly fall out of the sky, sure it
happens, but the odds are just so low that it isn't worth a lot of bother).
(I don't know, additionally, how much a ship will decelerate in
rentry, they are lighter than asteroids).

> You *want* to keep track of where ships are. And I rather suspect that
> traffic regulations will forbid any course that intercepts the planet
> or any space habitats (except during the last bit of a landing or
> docking manuever). They'll also be unhappy about any course that would
> intercept such if you suddenly cut power. Due to the way orbits work,
> this last class is a *lot* more restrictive.

Well, I don't see it as that likely a problem and I don't see the need
to track ships all the time to stop it.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 21:49:43 +0200
From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se>
Subject: RE: 20th Century piracy

> From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>Yes, but did it say how it got captured? Did a privately owned destroyer
>intercept it on the high seas and put a shot across its bows, demanding
>that it surrender?
[SNIP]
> So when was the last time you heard of an armed ship chasing down a
> merchant ship and capturing it?

Well...

"Pirates operating in Somalia waters have not hesitated to blast ships with
mortars and grenades. For instance the MV Ming Bright (22,738 gross tons)
was shelled by pirates who put nine holes in its superstructure and
containers. "
	-Excerpted from a 1996 story in The Wood Report

The above is quoted from the following link.

http://www.vantage-security.com/piracya.htm

It's the main page for Vantage Security's modern-day piracy section, listing
a dozen or so pirate attacks 1997-1998

As the company seems to want to sell security (as well as, among other
things "Foreign Military Assistance") I didn't feel like taking them at
their word, so I searched on.

Another site (that links to Vantage) is:

http://paladin-san-francisco.com/index.htm

which also seems to want to sell secure travel. Still, they probably don't
lie *too* outrageously. ;-)

For a more reputable (? ;-) source one can also take a look at Time
Magazine:

http://bubblemouth.pathfinder.com/time/magazine/1997/int/970818/high_seas.a_
plague_of_p.html

Or for an even more reputable source, consider looking to the World Maritime
News.

http://www.chamber-of-shipping.com/worldnews/news47b.html

This most recent issue lists an attempted pirate attack hospitalizing two
crewmembers of the Yin Chuan (15474-dwt) at Mombasa, Kenya.

A few quick web-searches turned up these and a few dozen more hits...

So, yes, IMTU, piracy exists.

/Jonas

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 12:54:04 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: 20th Century piracy

Wed, 27 May 1998 14:24:54 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen
<rancke@diku.dk>

> You know, I've just realize the fallacy in your claim that it is all a
> matter of assumptions and that while we, your opponents, can't prove our
> assumptions are correct, you can't prove that yours are either.

Actualy, it isn't a fallacy.  It is a logical extension of the
fact that I claim that you can't prove piracy is, or isn't,
possible.  It rests on too many assumptions.  You, on the
other hand, seek to prove that your way of looking at the
problem is the only possible way.  That is a _much_ harder
thing to do.  

If all you were to do is claim that one can set up a
Traveller universe where piracy is impossible my only
response is a) I don't think any prediction can ever
really know if anything impossible unless you actually
get to that situation, so I would suggest that is should
be "near impossible" or "apparently impossible" and b)
I would not that that the assumptions involved almost
always paint a picture of an Imperium that is much
more highly regulated and involved in day to day affairs
of it's citizens than I see it as being.

> And I repeat: I _assume_ that if there is a ship out there worth at least a
> few million credits (and if it's a functioning starship capable of capturing
> a merchant, then it is worth quite a few million credits), then simple greed
> will make tmen willing to spend a lot of resources on tracking it down. It
> really makes little difference whether it is 10 or 20 million credits that's
> involved.

Spending 20 million credits to have some chance of getting
3 million credits is loosing proposition.  Now we would
argue about the how much the Imperium would need to spend
to have a certain probabilility of catching pirates, and
how many there would be to catch, etc.  We could even
rebeat the "are military ships free for piracy prevention"
thread to death again.  However, it would come down to
the answer depending on the same sort of assumptions
we have already argued over before.

> Your counter-assumption that people _wouldn't_ be interested in
> tracking down such a million-credit bonanza is a perfect example of the
> kind of assumption that I find... implausible, to say the least.

And I find the idea that someone will never consider the
costs to make sure they aren't more than the return to
be implausible.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 12:57:48 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: 20th Century piracy

> I for one believe that piracy is possible, but not any massive
> scale.(except maybe in Vargr space)
> and certain not with anything that looks like an imperial warship.

I will state that I also think that piracy would not exist
at any level high than general irritant to society at large
(though it would more irritating to those individuals that
suffer from it :-).  If it got the point where it was, for
example, disrupting general trade, the Imperium would
definately be motivated to start exercising those resources
that others are so quick throw around.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 12:58:33 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)

>
>According to the MT Referee's Companion, at TL21 you get the Jump Projector
>and Jump Damper.  the first forces a ship into misjump by forming a jump
>field around it.  The second comes in two flavors.  First is a defensive
>screen to guard against a JP, the second a weapon to prevent ships from
>jumping out.
>
>It should be noted the j-drive is pretty passe by TL21, having been
>replaced by starship sized portals for unlimited-range jumps.
>
>

I totally forgot about those!  Both of these technologies seem to operate on
advanced jump theory.  Would it be possible, at lower tech levels, to use
already understood gravitic technology to create a giant (albeit relatively
weak) gravity field, which could then be used to take advantage of said
field's effect on jump drives?  Instead of projecting or dampening jump
fields, you simply use gravity to prevent/abort jumps.  Not quite as
effective as directly manipulating j-space fields, but it would work.

So, my question is, is it possible to create such a gizmo using FFS?

Brian (where is Famille Spofulam when you neeeeeeed them?) Mays

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 13:21:16 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: Glisten Subsector

Most of my Traveller campaigns/games have taken place in and around the
Glisten system and subsector.  Has anyone out there used this subsector
extensively?  I like it because it has a TL 15 base of operations, but is
right next to lots and lots of frontier space.

If you have any planets/adventures/etc., I would love to see them.

Thanks!

Brian

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 08:31:16 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)

At 10:49 AM 27/05/98 -0400, Peter H. Brenton wrote:

>So hex size (if that's what we're talking about) is, In my opinion, based
>on the length of a combat turn.
>
>20 minutes is an oft used duration;
>
>10 m/s/s for 20 minutes (1200 sec)
>
>d=1/2 at^2
>(d=distance in meters, a = accelleration in meters/sec, t=time in sec)
>
>(last time I tried to do this I got a lot of corrections; I hope you're all
>checking this one too!)
>
>d=1/2 * 10 * 1200^2
>
>d=7.2 million meters = 7200 km.
>
>Strange, I thought we were using 30,000km hexes...Let's try 1/2 hour and 1
>hour rounds;
>
>1/2 hour; d=1/2 * 10 * 1800^2
>
>d=16,200 km
>
>1 hour; d=1/2 * 10 * 3600^2
>
>d=64,800 km
>
>So where did my 30,000 km hexes come from?
>
>using 50,000km hexes and solving for time (t);
>
>50,000,000=1/2 * 10 * t^2 so;
>
>50,000,000/(1/2)/10=t^2
>
>10,000,000=t^2
>
>Sqrt(10000000)=t
>
>t=3,162 sec = ~53 minutes
>
>Anyway, 50,000km 'bands' works out to about 50 minute combat turns, if the
>vector based movement system is used.  I would encourage using this system,
>but that might fit better with either 16,000km range bands or 65,000 km
>range bands (and corresponding length combat turns) rather than 50,000km
>range bands.
>
>Of course, it's pretty moot.  The system I was using worked just fine with
>us believing we could move 30,000km in one combat turn, and weapons had
>ranges in hexes anyway.  As long as the system is internally consistent.
>Still, as a "hard" sci-fi game the travel time of a ship in combat is
>important.

IIRC in the designer's notes for Brilliant Lances it was explained that
they used 30,000 hexes because they matched 30 minutes of movement after
spending 1 G-turn of acceleration. This means it matches when you consider
movement at the volocity you get after accelerating, not the distance you
get while accelerating, which is half as much.

d = v * t
v = a * t

for 1 G-turn:

v = 10 * 1,800
  = 18000 m/s

d = 18,000 * 1,800
  = 32,400,000 m
  = 32,400 km

So 30,000 km per hex is about right for 30 minutes, 25,000 km is about
right for 25 minutes, and 50,000 km is about right for 45 minutes. Looking
at things the other way 20 minutes gives about 15,000 km and 60 minutes
gives 130,000 km.

If you wanted to be ultra realistic you'd half the size of all the hexes
and have each g of acceleration move the ship 1 hex in the round it
happens, and 2 in the succeeding rounds.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #525
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 28 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 526



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Starflight and aliens
RE: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)
Re: misjumps
Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)
Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)
Re: Star Luminosity Question
RE: 20th Century piracy
Re: Star Luminosity Question
Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)
Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product
It came from the Trav-box ... Drop Tanks
Iikauskhi class Free Trader
Biiiiiiiiiig gravity nettty-netty-net-net
Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage) 
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #521
Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)
Trav naval strategy: concentration of force

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 18:43:00 -0400
From: Journey <jjgray@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Starflight and aliens

At 02:29 AM 5/27/98 EDT, Gary wrote:

>I think it'd be best to explain the Elowan as "plant-like" rather than plants.
>Still... it would be interesting to put them halfway between the K'kree and
>3I.  Have them ask the 3I for help from hte "vicious cannibals."  I always
>thought their "head fruit" reproduction was interesting though.  That being
>the main reason for the animosity w/ the Thrynn (who consider "head fruit" to
>be a delicacy).  Of course, Virus will make them all toast anyways... ; )

Actually I thought that was one of the most interesting aspects of the
Elowan. As for their plantlike status, I was thinking that perhaps they,
the Veloxi and the Thrynn were actually experiments of the Ancients. 

>I always liked Star Control better than Starflight, though.  The Yehats, the
>Chenjesu, the Alliance of Free Stars.  I'm contemplating doing a campaign
>based on that background.  

I loved Star Control dearly and considered races from there as well. In the
campaign setting I'm designing there are actually six races in the
subsector: the Humans, the Thrynn, the Veloxi, the Elowan, the Shofixti and
the Androids (based on the Mrrmrhhm). I was also planning on bringing in my
personal favorite, the Ariloulaleelay.

>A race that would be really cool for Traveller would be the Ur-Quan.
>Subjugated by a psionic species and geneered into two varieties, one
>philosopher and one warrior.  After overthrowing them (and driving them
into a
>fate worse than extinction),  the Kzer-za (the green ones) and the Kohr-ah
>(black ones) decide they're never gonna be at the mercy of aliens again and
>(the Kzer-za) proceed to subjugate other species (or put them behind a slave
>shield if they won't become "Battle Thralls") or (the Kohr-ah) proceed to
>"cleanse" the galaxy of life, destroying every race they come across,
>spacefaring or no.  

Actually, I would find this an interesting alternative to the Virus as the
reason for the dark times. Imagine if the Imperium was in the middle of a
civil war when suddenly two incredibly powerful races appear, one from
coreward one from spinward. The Kohr-ah destroy any sentient they come
across as they sweep towards the middle of known space while the Kzer-za
enslave any sentient they come across in a similar journey. 

Jay

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 19:44:28 -0400
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@access.digex.net>
Subject: RE: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)

Howdy!

Brian Mays wrote (in reply to a post about TL21 Jump Damper/Projectors:

>
>I totally forgot about those!  Both of these technologies seem to operate on
>advanced jump theory.  Would it be possible, at lower tech levels, to use
>already understood gravitic technology to create a giant (albeit relatively
>weak) gravity field, which could then be used to take advantage of said
>field's effect on jump drives?  Instead of projecting or dampening jump
>fields, you simply use gravity to prevent/abort jumps.  Not quite as
>effective as directly manipulating j-space fields, but it would work.
>
>So, my question is, is it possible to create such a gizmo using FFS?
>

IMTU, a ship is not going to produce a very large disturbance in the
gravity field; how big is 100 diameters, and how will you be able to position
yourself accurately on the line between systems? Neither will you be able
to create much of a greater disturbance via TL16- gravitic technology.
Perhaps the TL21 stuff is advanced gravitics? Really advanced...

yours,
Michael

- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@access.digex.net  | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.access.digex.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 17:00:52 PDT
From: "archie t." <merc4u@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: misjumps

   As for misjumps being a good way to cover distance, I agree. This is 
a great way for startup media firms to get the word out FAST....
Also from cannon, misjumps are random by direction, not by the number of 
masses.
   and average die rol being 3.5, id have a media company offices out 
far enough from Capital/Vland to take advantage of a distance misjump if 
it happens, otherwise relying on standard xboat routes, which would 
complement the distance misjump system, "distance misjump" meaning a 
misjump that covers more distance/time than a normal jump. Even a one 
day advantage is money for the company. The offices would be 7 parsecs, 
give or take, to take advantage of the occation '1' week random roll on 
a misjump, maybe 14 parsecs on the outside, can rely on too many good 
rolls! whats the average xboat jump, 3.6 parsecs?
   You could map ALL the the % of each misjump, I have it somewhere, and 
get enuf scout ships to increase your odds. To target a single 
destination planet, % of success is 1- e^(# of ships dedicated to THAT 
planet), considering the total area/distance 'ring', and dice 
probibilities.
    

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 20:24:20 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)

Michael Houghton wrote:

> Howdy!
>
> Brian Mays wrote (in reply to a post about TL21 Jump Damper/Projectors:
>
> >
> >I totally forgot about those!  Both of these technologies seem to operate on
> >advanced jump theory.  Would it be possible, at lower tech levels, to use
> >already understood gravitic technology to create a giant (albeit relatively
> >weak) gravity field, which could then be used to take advantage of said
> >field's effect on jump drives?  Instead of projecting or dampening jump
> >fields, you simply use gravity to prevent/abort jumps.  Not quite as
> >effective as directly manipulating j-space fields, but it would work.
> >
> >So, my question is, is it possible to create such a gizmo using FFS?
> >
> IMTU, a ship is not going to produce a very large disturbance in the
> gravity field; how big is 100 diameters, and how will you be able to
> position
> yourself accurately on the line between systems? Neither will you be able
> to create much of a greater disturbance via TL16- gravitic technology.
> Perhaps the TL21 stuff is advanced gravitics? Really advanced...

If YTU uses gravitic focusing for lasers, you can use them to create a web
through which the target ship must pass on the way to a planet.  Since there
really isn't an accurate way of locking onto a planet from another system, I
figure that you lock onto the star and then do further calculations once you get
in-system.  To catch incoming vessels in the net, you'd have to set it up at the
outer edge of the system, in line between the two stars.  To catch outgoing
ships, you'd have to be relatively close the the departure planet, in line
between the destination star and the departure planet.  The 100 diameters will
form a cone of travel between departure planet and destination star.  You then
set up your web inside the cone at a "safe" distance.  In either case, the
intense gravity within the gravitic focused beam will shear any jump bubble that
passes through it. That should precipitate the ship out of J-space... or cause a
misjump.  In any case, by adjusting the distance between the strands, you can
seive out the smaller ships (like scouts sent out for SAR) while catching the
super freighters.

So, to figure out how big the net is, there's several factors that need to be
addressed.
1. How strong is the gravity created by a gravitic focussed laser?
2. How fast does it drop off?
3. What is the second smallest dimension of the ship you're trying to catch?
4. How far away is the destination star?
5. How large is the departure planet?
6. What is a "safe" distance?

I think that these calculations will produce an aweful lot of lasers to get the
desired effect. However, if you can narrow the options for a departing ship, you
can get by with a smaller web.  For example, if your buddy the pirate, chases the
merchant into a specific vector and then spooks him into jumping from 10
diameters, your web can be 1% of the calculated size.  Since it takes a while to
do your jump calculations, they'll be stuck for a good hour or more in realspace
while the main pirate force attacks.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 18:47:27 +0000
From: edjs@mindlink.net
Subject: Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)

> Date:          Wed, 27 May 1998 11:20:36 -0400
> From:          "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
> 
> Then there's the idea of strapping a manuver drove to a relatively large
> object (asteroid or cometary body) and pushing it into the starlanes (time
> consuming, but possible with reactionless thrust).

   The problem with pushing a large object into a starlane is that the starlane 
is constantly accelerating, as the begin and end-points of the starlane 
orbit their respective stars.  That asteroid you are using would have to be 
under constant acceleration to remain on station, at perhaps too high an 
acceleration to be practical.

   If you do manage to precipitate ships out of jump, you want to do it near 
the destination of the jump, rather than the beginning (assuming you are a 
p-p-p.., p-p-p-i-r-r..., oh hell, Adventurer).  Otherwise, you float around 
twiddling your thumbs waiting a week for the ship to emerge from jump-space.


- --
Edward Swatschek - edjs@mindlink.net

The only truly "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that,
it's all learned. (Bruce Ediger, bediger@teal.csn.org, in
comp.os.linux.misc, on X interfaces.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 18:47:27 +0000
From: edjs@mindlink.net
Subject: Re: Star Luminosity Question

> From:          Russell Anderson Sinclair <rsincla@acad.stedwards.edu>
> Date:          Tue, 26 May 1998 11:25:05 CDT
> 
> I was looking through the rules for system generation and came across star
> Luminosity and Type. I am familiar with white dwarfs, blue giants, etc.
> and what they are as far as heat and light.
> 
> Could someone please explain in Traveller rules the deal with Luminosity
> numbers and star types (A, B, etc) and what they mean?


   The star-type is a letter designation indicating the surface temperature of 
the star, and, as a consequence, the colour.  The luminosity is the total 
energy output of the star.  If you plot the luminosity vs temperature, you get 
the H-R diagram Joe mentioned.

   Most stars are on the main sequence (size V), where the mass of the star is 
it's defining chracteristic.  The more massive it is, the brighter and hotter 
it is, and the faster it burns itself out.

   In the Traveller rules, the luminosity is used to determine what orbit(s) 
are in the habitable-planet zone.  There are no rules that use the colour; it's 
just used as, well, colour. :) The diameter is used to determine where it's 
safe to use a jump drive (which often extends out past the mainworld's own 
100-diameter limit).  And the mass (and planet's orbit) will tell you the 
planet's year length.

   If you are going for more realism, the vast majority of human-habitable
planets will be circling main sequence stars F, G, K, and some M.  Above F,
the stars put out too much ultraviolet, and they may not have been around long
enough for life to develop on thier planets (native life or terraforming is
required for a oxygen atmosphere).  Many M-stars will be too dim to have a
useful habitable zone.  The supergiants have the problem of ultraviolet and
short life-spans (magnitudes worse), and the habitable zone of a red giant has 
moved outwards as the star has expanded and increased in luminosity. 
Pre-existing habitable worlds become toasted, and the planets moving into the 
habitable zone have little time to develop a breathable atmosphere.


- --
Edward Swatschek - edjs@mindlink.net

The only truly "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that,
it's all learned. (Bruce Ediger, bediger@teal.csn.org, in
comp.os.linux.misc, on X interfaces.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 10:23:13 +0800 (WST)
From: skribe <skribe@amber.com.au>
Subject: RE: 20th Century piracy

On 27-May-98 Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> So when was the last time you heard of an armed ship chasing down a
> merchant ship and capturing it?

It depends on what you call a merchant vessel. Illegal fishing fleets are
detained all the time by armed vessels.  The top end of Australia gets about
1 per week at times and there have been a few ships detained in the southern
oceans over the last six months as well.  All for illegal fishing, but
they're merchants too =)
- ---
skribe <skribe@amber.com.au>

"When evil's afoot, and you don't have any arms, you've got to do a little
leg work. And when evil's ahead, and you're a little
 behind, you've got to stay hip. You've got to keep on your toes! You've got
to kick a little--"
- -The Tick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 22:23:31 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Star Luminosity Question

>    If you are going for more realism, the vast majority of human-habitable
> planets will be circling main sequence stars F, G, K, and some M.  Above F,
> the stars put out too much ultraviolet, and they may not have been around long
> enough for life to develop on thier planets (native life or terraforming is
> required for a oxygen atmosphere).  Many M-stars will be too dim to have a
> useful habitable zone.  The supergiants have the problem of ultraviolet and
> short life-spans (magnitudes worse), and the habitable zone of a red giant has
> moved outwards as the star has expanded and increased in luminosity.
> Pre-existing habitable worlds become toasted, and the planets moving into the
> habitable zone have little time to develop a breathable atmosphere.

I just wanted to add a little pet project I had.  There's an awful lot of those M
class binary systems which, in theory, wouldn't be very suitable.  Now, lets say
you manage to generate a HUGE gravitational field that would draw the two stars
together. There's a theory that if you can crash two stars into each other such
that the close speed is less than their rotational speed, they'll just sorta merge
and form a single star with the combined mass. You'd need to pull off the angular
momentum some how, but that's what inner system planets are for :-)

Anyway, combining a couple of suitable M-V stars could generate a nice K class with
a reasonable habitable zone.

It probably isn't feasible in a vanilla Traveller universe, but I was in a game
where hyperspace magnified gravity greatly, and that's where I came up with the
ploy.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 98 20:10:55 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)

On 05/27/98 at 10:49 AM,  "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu> said:

>Conclusion; 50,000 km bands or hexes work for me, but only if they are
>accompanied by 1 hour combat turns.

Good for you, but *IMTU*, tactical movement will use 30Kkm hexes/bands.

I use Stutterwarp drives and 1 minute ship combat turns.  Movement of 5 to
15 hexes per minute are the norm, depending on tech level and ship type,
and everything works out nicely.  Each hex/turn is another 500km/s of
pseudo-velocity. 

As I've been saying all along my comments relate to MTU, but it *would* be
nice if *something* official was similar to how I do things.  The "c"
people will be telling me I'm not playing Traveller again.  ;->


Eris,
    even heretics get the blues! ;->
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 23:01:12 -0700
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product

I'll take one.  I'll even kick in the extra three bucks for the autographed
copy.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
      Smith&Wesson -- The Ultimate "Point & Click" User interface.
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 23:57:03
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: It came from the Trav-box ... Drop Tanks

>Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1925 16:32:40 -0700
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Drop Tanks
>
>Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:59:17 +0000, "Keven R. Pittsinger"
<jamstar@glasscity.net>
>>Not really.  Considering that 'fuelless jumps' would be probably restricted to
>>either highly civilised areas or dedicated routes due to the fact that a Class
>>C or worse port isn't likely to *HAVE* spare drop tanks around, I don't see
>>how game balance is torqued.
>
>I don't agree.  The main trade routes would all immediately change
>over and one can well see something similar to the rural electrification
>program to put "jump stations" in as many worlds as possible (the
>mage corps will push for them).  And the you also have issue about
>just using the jump stations to jump in the fuel you need to get
>back.
>

David, mate, others of us think a similar process will happen with baby
naval bases (a PEMS, a LIDAR, a dozen t-plate missiles and half a dozen
fighters), that will suppress the incidence of ethically-challenged
civilians attacking other civilian shipping, thus reducing the inherent
risk of interstellar trade.

>When you alter fundamental aspects of how the background works,
>it will have ramifications.
>

Yes. My feeling is that using drop tanks should increase the probability of
misjump by 2%. This way the Navy gets to go "OK. So we will take 2% misjump
including 1% outright casualties in our deep-penetration cruiser squadrons,
when we drop tank out and internal fuel back for a raid", but the Merchant
corporation accountant goes "Using external tanks on our freighters will
result in a fatal misjump on average every 100 jumps, or 1200 days given 48
hour turnaround. This will reduce the effective operating life of our
capital investment by approximatly 90%, leading to a sharply increased
required internal rate of return, and a sharp reduction in expected traffic
in non-replacable items, including persons. Increased crew turnover is also
expected as those individuals fail to seek re-employment unless internal
redeployment to less risky operational health and safety environments is
arranged".

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 00:47:24
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Iikauskhi class Free Trader

>Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:26:32 -0500
>From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
>Subject: A New Free Trader
>
>I've designed a new free trader for MTU, and it appears to be able to
>generate a modest profit using the standard rules...especially if you got a
>good crew performing speculative trading - but it should do okay on a good
>freight route too...I'd appreciate any comments people have...
>
>=========================================================
>Iikauskhi class Free Trader
>
>Designed by Udararuukin
>
>Statistics
>  Tons: 180std (SL Wedge Hypersonic).
>  Volume: 2520m3.
>  Mass (L/C nominal): 2278t/1000t.
>  Dimensions: 42.5m x 29.2m x 12.2m.
>  Size: 8.
>  Crew: 3/4.
>  Passengers High/Med: 0/6.
>  Passengers Low/Emerg: 0/6.
>  Troops/Science: 0/0.
>  Frozen Watch: 0.
>  Cargo: 90std (0/1 /Hdl:1x10ton).
>  Price: 37.778MCr.
>  Maintenance Points: 35.
>  Tech Level: 12.
>
>Electronics
>  Controls: Dynamic, Standard automation. 3xComp (CM:0.7 CP:1.43). No
>bridge.
>  Communications: 1xRadio (50,000km, 0.02MW). 1xLaser (1,000AU, 0MW).
>  Base Sensors: 1xPEMS (12.5 [1.6mkm], 0MW). 1xAEMS (11 [.16mkm], 1MW).
>  Science Sensors: None
>  ECM: None
>  Signatures: Vis: -0.5, IR: -0.5, Act: 0.5, Neu: -1, Grav: 0.
>
>Weapons
>  1xEmpty 42m turret (.75 MW available for weaponry).
>
>Performance
>  Jump: 1 (180std/pc fuel).
>  Maneuver (L/C): 1/2.2 (/Thruster: 54MW).
>  Contra Grav (L/C): 1/2.2 (37MW).
>  Atmospheric (L/C): 1913kph/3643kph (/Crus:1435kph/2732kph).
>  Power: 1 (/Fusion:94MW, 1yr).
>  Fuel: 19 (/Scoop:5 /Purification: 12hr, 1MW).
>  Accomodations: 0/9/1/6/0.
>  Life Support: 40 (/Type:Standard, normal food. /Storage).
>  G-Compensation: 2G.
>
>  Armor: 10 [29]
>  Structure: 10
>
>Features
>  2xAirlock.
>  1xShip's Locker (0.09std).
>  1xOrdinary Galley (Cap:4).
>  1xOrdinary Galley (Cap:6).
>
>Small Craft
>  1xDocking Slip (2std air/raft).

Ditzie's still asleep, so I'm going to answer this.

It's interesting looking at this and the Tracey class. Again, it's
overpowered for jump-1 - I'd think about taking the power plant down to
about 65 megawatts, perhaps with a little boost capability from 1 hour
batteries, just in case you need to power the CG and the thrusters, or the
thrusters and the laser, or whatever. Again, the AEMS is a spare wheel -
I'd have an AEMS/Lidar as part of an upgraded weaponary package, not a
standard option (1 megacredit of sticker cost is 4 kilocredits per monthly
payment, or the revenue from 4 dtons of cargo). You might even lose some of
the CG as well - my numbers show it being 100 m3 or so, and with a flat gee
from the thruster plates you might be better off with 30 m3 of CG and an
extra 5 dtons of revenue earning capacity.

If you take the power down to 64 MW and lose the AEMS, you get a sticker
price of MCr3 less. Lose 70% of the CG and install a dton of cargo space
for 21 megawatts of power from batteries for one hour (or use TAKAFP for
67.2 extra megawatts indefinitly) and the cargo bay goes up to 94 dtons,
and you can still do 1.3 gees with a full load (enough to get off most
anywhere).

Note that the economics rules are broken for small staterooms vis a vis
cargo and low berths - a mid passenger in a small stateroom creates net KCr
6 revenue from 2 dtons, as compared to net KCr 2 from freight or net KCr
1.8 from low berths. Allowing 2 middle passengers or a high passenger in a
small stateroom makes the differential even worse.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 15:28:55
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Biiiiiiiiiig gravity nettty-netty-net-net

Uncie,


Weeeeeee just got a request to build a biggy bigggy big big gravity
projector. Weeeee dont know if it's gravity or mass or whatwhat that caused
ships to fallie fallie fall fall out of jumpie-wumpie space, so weeeeee
dont know if this will work.

Weeee reckon you will need to build a series of itsy bitsy little
gravity-projector nodes - thirty lots of one cubic meeeter of 3Geeee
artificial gravity, plus a twenny megawatt fusie-wusie plant held together
with point one cuuuubic meter-weters of superduperdense ropie-wopie. It
shoooould all mass twenny-one point seven cuuuubic meters and cost about
threee point five five meeeegacwedits.

Thirty nodes shooould let you cover nine hunnnerd cuuuubic meters of
spacie-wacey with a oooone gee field. We dunno if it will extend out one
hunnerd times an an an bouncie bouncie bounce bounce ships out of
hyper-wyper space. If it doesie wuzzie wuzzie then you'll be able to cover
muuuuuuch more by spreading out the nodie-wodies, but myyyyyy brain hurts
an an ana I have to go back to looking for purple spiders.

Cousin Diiiiiiiitzie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 00:37:38 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage) 

> Howdy!
> 
> Brian Mays wrote (in reply to a post about TL21 Jump Damper/Projectors:
> 
> >
> >I totally forgot about those!  Both of these technologies seem to operate on
> >advanced jump theory.  Would it be possible, at lower tech levels, to use
> >already understood gravitic technology to create a giant (albeit relatively
> >weak) gravity field, which could then be used to take advantage of said
> >field's effect on jump drives?  Instead of projecting or dampening jump
> >fields, you simply use gravity to prevent/abort jumps.  Not quite as
> >effective as directly manipulating j-space fields, but it would work.
> >
> >So, my question is, is it possible to create such a gizmo using FFS?
> >
> IMTU, a ship is not going to produce a very large disturbance in the
> gravity field; how big is 100 diameters, and how will you be able to
> position
> yourself accurately on the line between systems? Neither will you be able
> to create much of a greater disturbance via TL16- gravitic technology.
> Perhaps the TL21 stuff is advanced gravitics? Really advanced...

IMTU, the re-entry effects of an incoming starship can be detected at about 3 
light-minutes (54million klicks, or about half an AU), propagated at 
lightspeed of course.  Kinda simular to Cherenkov radiation, which is the blue 
light reputedly the 'our-space' track of a FTL particle.

Keven


- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 07:01:29 +0100
From: David Armour <beegee.demon.co.uk@beegee.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #521

>Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 11:11:22 -0400
>From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
>Subject: Re: Letter of Marque
>
>A new CT product?  You bet I'd go for one.  Sign me up.
>

Count me in for a signed copy too !  Anyone else in the UK interested in
a copy ?  Maybe we could order them together.

- -- 
David Armour

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 23:04:24 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Piracy
...
>Well, assuming "antis" means those against piracy being
>illegal, I saw a lot more assumptions than I ever saw
>of "facts".

  I wasn't aware of a faction for legalizing piracy. The pro-piracy
faction (of which I happen to be one on certain topics) typically
ignored analyses of the (canonical) 3I's capabilities. It's difficult
to meaningfully discuss uses if one side is unwilling to accept that
1 + 1 = 2 (stand-ins for established budgetary considerations :> ).

...
>>  As pointed out previously, our "Western, 20th century" society
>>is prone to remarkably under-regulating given its' capability for
>>doing so, and that historically states and empires have typically
>>shown a vast concern for security and observation/regulation of
>>both their territory and their economic extensions.
>
>Well, to begin with, _most_ societies aren't regulated to their
>capability (even the Soviet Union wasn't).  As far as societies
>goes, the US may not be the most regulated in history, but
>it is more regulated than a lot and certainly doesn't qualify
>as the sort of laisse faire society that I see the Imperium as
>being.  Secondly, the concern states show for their security is
>to keep it within certain levels.  Very few states will go to
>any length to stamp out a crime that is already rare.

  As stated previously, the issue is relative to their capability,
not _up to_ their capability, which is absurd, unless you count
the achievements of the Khmer Rouge.

  The US most certainly is not highly regulated, although I realize
that various political or ideological viewpoints view it differently.
Less-regulated societies in the modern era simply lack the resources
(in almost all cases) to govern effectively, be it Somalia or Peru.

  As for laissez-faire, the 18th C. UK, supposed champion of said
doctrine, never took much of a hands-off approach to matters of either
internal or external security; certainly their internal order issues
were either exceedingly well-handled or simply fortunately limited.

...
>Well, as I keep saying, you can come up with different ones
>depending on your assumptions.  I can't prove that the Imperium
>would be a certain way any more than other can prove that
>it would regulated to the point that piracy wouldn't exist.

  Luckily I don't have to prove too much, as I've purchased some
wonderful little books that happen to cover the Traveller universe
and the Imperium in particular in some detail. OTOH, if I had to
guesstimate the range of possibilities for certain technologies
and given historical occurrences, I could try and assess the relative
likelihood (or improbability) of various outcomes. Personally I
wouldn't care to do so, but I understand that game developers often
have to resort to such improvisations.

>I personally would punt transponders.
>I really don't see much interest in them.  If the Imperium
>wants to know what ship you are, they ask.  (If you don't
>answer, then they get suspisios).  They don't need

  Why would the answer have any validity to the authorities? 
Is there a verification method? Remember, transponders are
potentially security aids as well as navigational devices,
and by dropping one you are perhaps coincidentally heaving
the other.

>Inspections for, customs, smuggling, would be done by local
>officials (they get the revenues) and would be based on

  So if a local government approves of piracy (for example) then
at what point does the Imperium, per its' mandate, attempt to
eliminate that actor? How does it do so?

>local law levels.  The Imperium doesn't pay a lot of intention
>to individuals, simply not condsidering them worth bother

  OK. That's a judgement call, and I'd be prepared to agree if
regulation of ships manifests prevented simply enslaving and/or
kidnapping passengers; this is the unaddressed slavery bit again.

>with on a routine basis.  They don't routinely inspect ships
>for nukes, bioweapons, etc.  Instead they control these
>things at the source (which makes a lot more sense).

  Funny, I recently tossed off an off-hand comment (TML?) that
controlling nukes at the source would be a real bitch in the 3I
given the number of TL 6+ worlds (let alone Seekers with the needed
kit). I suppose all related equipment would need to be controlled
too. Also the permeability of the border needs to be considered.

>Space patrols would be based on the amount of comercial activity,
>how much a problem piracy has been, the odds of enemy activity,
>etc.  Regina has a lot of patrols.  A class E starport off
>of the main line might see a patrol vessel now and then.

  I can see the latter. The former sounds like a disagreement over
degree, not existence. Who performs these patrols?

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 23:25:31 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Trav naval strategy: concentration of force

Hello,
(sorry about the delay - illness)
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation (long)
...
>>>One can't have it both ways.  If trade is easy to cut off because
>>>jump stations are only present at certain worlds along certain
>>>routes, then you also know where the enemy commerce raiders need
>>>to go to attack it.  If you don't know where they will attack]
>>>because jump stations are all over the place, then ships will
>>>find it easy to find alternate routes.
>>
>>  See below for a detailed analysis. If someone on the list knows
>>better, their help in discussing the issue would be appreciated.
>>
>>  Jump stations all over the place either exacerbate the case
>>discussed below, or become casualties in short order.
...
>>  One of us has a serious problem visualizing concentration of force.
>
>Yeah, but who?

  Possibly me, which is why I'm trying to work this out.

  If you could find the opportunity to formulate your own view
(perhaps in a fashion similar to the one I posted immediately
prior to this original post) then perhaps we could resume the
comparison of fleet intruder / raider operations against both
conventional Traveller shipping and the hypothetical Jump-tanker
model.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #526
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 28 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 527



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The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Drop tank system implementation (shorter)
"Their Masters' War"
It came from the Late, Late Trav-box
Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)
Re: Tracy class Longship, as modified by Ditzammer Spofulam
Re: Piracy
Re: Questions
Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)
nuclear material
Re: 20th Century piracy
Re: Piracy [long...]
RE: 20th Century piracy
Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)
RE: 20th Century piracy
Turnlengths & physics (was Re: Coordinated Jumps)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 23:46:12 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation (shorter)

 (in the interests of avoiding this turning into the piracy
 debate again, I've separated out the stuff on the IN budget)

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
...
>>>commerce raiding wasn't the point.  If you have an area
>>>where all trade is being suppressed, I will agree that
>>>the non-existant trade won't be converted to use new
>>>technology.
>
>>  That's a tautology.
>
>No, it's a cogent point.

  "In an area with no trade, no trading ships will be converted".
If that's not a tautology (def'n: "needless repetition of an idea
in different words") I'd like to know what it is. It certainly 
doesn't seem to be a compelling point to me.

>>>No.  The Imperium will use it as an excuse to raise taxes, or
>>>require megacorps to support their own ships....
>
>>  The Imperium will raise taxes arbitrarily to buy new Navy tankers
>>to support the potential war-time demands of the civil economy?
>
>I don't know if its "arbitrary" but sure.

  I'll save you the dictionary definition of "arbitrary", but it's
close enough. So, the nature of politics in the Imperium is such that
the Imperium, which seems to exist solely to wage war (as the occasion
presents) IYTU, can effectively confiscate the profits from a huge
investment by the mega-corps in a more efficient technology? Even if
true, wouldn't that be a very serious barrier to investment?

...
>>and probably respond by not investing very much at all in the new
>>tech
>
>They will if the savings in new tech are greater than the
>taxes.

  _If the savings are greater_ _and the risk is demonstrably low_
_relative to the investment_. I suspect that most economists or
CA's would agree with that; therefore, wouldn't implementation
be quite radically drawn out?

>>  This is also the same Imperium that can't or won't raise taxes
>>to pay for adequate internal security patrols by light warships;
>
>Don't put words in my mouth.  They won't raise taxes to
>pay for internal security potrols that are seen as being
>justified by the need.

  You've repeatedly stated that you don't believe that the Imperium
_will_ maintain serious (IMO) internal security. IIRC, you may have
stated during the Navy budget debat that it wasn't possible either.
Do you have a definitive opinion or analysis?

  So is it a given that ships built to address external threats
are unusable for internal security missions? Are there no linkages
or correlations between these missions? Are designated internal
security vessels unusable for external (or internal wartime) tasks?

>>again, economic analysis of the 3I data suggests that established
>>revenues are more than adequate, anyway.
>
>It is not the absolute revenues.  Its they need.  If you
>took that approach, you would find that there is an
>infinite number of things that you could spend your money
>on that you can "afford" if you look at them in isolation.

  Given the absolute revenues and the number of designated taskings
within the Imperiums purview there will very likely be money left
over for internal security or the Navy. It may of course prove to be
desirable to reconsider theoretical Imperial Navy deployments at length.

>>  A warship with high G's of evasion has a radically unfair advantage
>>when engaging in a long range sniping duel with slow or stationary
...
>They don't sit in the open and try and run.  They sit under
>protection and come out when the convoy shows up.

  They'll have to land then, as any realistic combat model using
Traveller beam ranges will have freighters in near-orbital space
being gutted like so many fish. Stations are worse off.

...
>>  But how can you differentiate between anti-piracy patrols,
>>commerce/anti-commerce training missions, and other dedicated
>>internal security operations? 
...
>Well, there are a number of differences.  War time always
>uses resources that are saved up during peace time, in
>war time you control commerce in both time and space (with
>convoys, protected routes, etc.) while peace time commerce
>is more scattered...

  I agree about the Rebellion, but if sufficient patrols (probably
including some of the small SDB's) are maintained in peacetime to
watch for enemy intelligence ships, or infiltration leading up to
an attack, then how can these patrols not serve any anti-piracy
function beyond the ~100 diameter limits (which latter would only
need a handful of dedicated vessels, and then only when local
resources are inadequate to supply the protection level desired)?

        Steven Hudson
  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 00:16:10 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: "Their Masters' War"

>From: Journey <jjgray@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: Starflight and aliens
...
>>fate worse than extinction),  the Kzer-za (the green ones) and the Kohr-ah
>>(black ones) decide they're never gonna be at the mercy of aliens again and
>>(the Kzer-za) proceed to subjugate other species (or put them behind a slave
>>shield if they won't become "Battle Thralls") or (the Kohr-ah) proceed to
>>"cleanse" the galaxy of life, destroying every race they come across,
>>spacefaring or no.  
>
>Actually, I would find this an interesting alternative to the Virus as the
>reason for the dark times. Imagine if the Imperium was in the middle of a
>civil war when suddenly two incredibly powerful races appear, one from
>coreward one from spinward. The Kohr-ah destroy any sentient they come
>across as they sweep towards the middle of known space while the Kzer-za
>enslave any sentient they come across in a similar journey. 

  You might try two novels by Mick Farren: "Protectorate" and "Their
Masters' War". In the first a near-extinct humanity is freed from their
alien overlords by an underclass messiah with inhuman powers.

  In the latter humans have been removed from Earth by the telepath
galaxy conquerors behind the puppet messiah, and serve as battle
cattle for their masters eternal war against the other great race
of the galaxy. The humans are literally "farmed" from barbaric
colonies seeded throughout the rear areas of their masters space.

  I recommend them, FWIW.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 00:16:58 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: It came from the Late, Late Trav-box

>From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>Subject: It came from the Trav-box ... Drop Tanks

  You've been neglecting your e-mail haven't you?
...
>David, mate, others of us think a similar process will happen with baby
>naval bases (a PEMS, a LIDAR, a dozen t-plate missiles and half a dozen
>fighters), that will suppress the incidence of ethically-challenged
>civilians attacking other civilian shipping, thus reducing the inherent
>risk of interstellar trade.

  What if they just flamed each other with comm-masers? :) Seriously,
I think patrolling would be more economical for most of the more
marginal worlds. It would be interesting if the taxation carriage of
individual worlds (at least a range) could be determined to see if
most smaller worlds could cover defenses out of their own customs and
excise income or whether upper tiers of fleet commands would have to
cover the force liability (with mobile assets?).

>Yes. My feeling is that using drop tanks should increase the probability of
>misjump by 2%. This way the Navy gets to go "OK. So we will take 2% misjump
...
>capital investment by approximatly 90%, leading to a sharply increased
...
>redeployment to less risky operational health and safety environments is
>arranged".

  What about reduced pension liabilities? You also save on maintenance,
and the tax write-off should be enormous. OC, insurance is Right Out.
It still might be do-able with J-6 liners, especially if you found a
society in which Russian Roulette was considered a childishly
understated pastime. Perhaps a J-6 liner/bordello/casino - screw
betting at craps, buy a lottery ticket on the ship misjumping! If
a catastrophic pays off say MCr 10 - wow, talk about mixed emotions...

        Steven Hudson      :)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 01:42:43 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)

Wed, 27 May 1998 23:04:24 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>It's difficult
>to meaningfully discuss uses if one side is unwilling to accept that
>1 + 1 = 2 (stand-ins for established budgetary considerations :> ).

The problem isn't he math (even when it is more complex than
that :-).  It's the assumptions that lead one to come up
with 1+1 instead of 1+2 or 2+2....

We could argue about how regulated the US is today.  I feel
that it isn't as unregulated as many societies historically
(even relative to the degree it could be), or even
as it has been in the past.  I also see the Imperium as
being much less regulated than that US.  (Because of
slow communictations, large size, decentralized government,
feudal structure, etc)

>Less-regulated societies in the modern era simply lack the resources
>(in almost all cases) to govern effectively, be it Somalia or Peru.

This I don't agree with.  I also feel that even if it was true
that would only speak to general modern regulation which would
still contrast with many other historical societies.

>  As for laissez-faire, the 18th C. UK, supposed champion of said
>doctrine, never took much of a hands-off approach to matters of either
>internal or external security; certainly their internal order issues
>were either exceedingly well-handled or simply fortunately limited.

Well, I am playing loose with the term "laissez-faire".  It
is technically an economic term which I am misapplying.  Nor
do I think that anything I said says that the Imperium is
ignoring it's internal or extrnal security.  Piracy at the
level of minor irritant is not a threat to security.

>>I personally would punt transponders.
>>I really don't see much interest in them.  If the Imperium
>>wants to know what ship you are, they ask.  (If you don't
>>answer, then they get suspisios).  They don't need

>  Why would the answer have any validity to the authorities?
>Is there a verification method? Remember, transponders are
>potentially security aids as well as navigational devices,
>and by dropping one you are perhaps coincidentally heaving
>the other.

Unless you have some system of cross checking codes (which would
be hard with communications as hard as they are, as another poster
did a good job of elucidating), they aren't much more reliable
than the explinations of the ships captain.  If he can lie he
can alter the transponder.

>>Inspections for, customs, smuggling, would be done by local
>>officials (they get the revenues) and would be based on

>  So if a local government approves of piracy (for example) then
>at what point does the Imperium, per its' mandate, attempt to
>eliminate that actor? How does it do so?

You missed what I said.  The local government is in charge of
customs and such, not with security for transiting ships.

>>with on a routine basis.  They don't routinely inspect ships
>>for nukes, bioweapons, etc.  Instead they control these
>>things at the source (which makes a lot more sense).

>  Funny, I recently tossed off an off-hand comment (TML?) that
>controlling nukes at the source would be a real bitch in the 3I
>given the number of TL 6+ worlds (let alone Seekers with the needed
>kit). I suppose all related equipment would need to be controlled
>too. Also the permeability of the border needs to be considered.

Well, the number of companies that make the stuff would be,
in my mind, more limited than the number of ships travelling
in the imperium....

>>Space patrols would be based on the amount of comercial activity,
>>how much a problem piracy has been, the odds of enemy activity,
>>etc.  Regina has a lot of patrols.  A class E starport off
>>of the main line might see a patrol vessel now and then.

>  I can see the latter. The former sounds like a disagreement over
>degree, not existence. Who performs these patrols?

The navy.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 21:24:05 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Tracy class Longship, as modified by Ditzammer Spofulam

Date sent:      	Tue, 26 May 1998 08:16:10
To:             	traveller@MPGN.COM
From:           	Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject:        	Tracy class Longship, as modified by Ditzammer Spofulam
Send reply to:  	traveller@MPGN.COM

> Warning. Ditzie-speak and design system abuse follows.
> Andrew, it's essentially a nice ship. Ditzie is right though - it needs
> more guns, and either a bigger jump drive or smaller power plant. There
> also should be a freezer for food storage and at least a couple of toilets.

> I also dont like the weapon suite. IMO 13.5 megajoule lasers are pretty
> useless in space - you need to be able to punch armour, not scratch it.

> The Meson Gun is probably excessive, but what the heck. It'll be an awful
> shock for someone who closes to capture ... I dont know how much radiation
> damage a 20 MJ meson gun puts out, but a hit to the bridge or power plant
> probably wouldnt do you much good at all.

> The AEMS is a spare wheel without an upgraded weapons suite as well -
> either upgrade and keep it, or lose it. You might think about losing the CG
> as well, seeing how you can pull a streamlined gee in any case. Whats the
> hull - crystaliron ? And does it have wings ?

Please thank Dizzie for her wonderful comments. Unfortunatly though a meson 
gun would be neat, the design is ment to be an old IW Terran ship and they 
didn't have them back then. However I've redesigned the ship in light of her 
comments. I kept the armarment the same (but dumped the AEMS) since I 
can't seem to get the design to do anything better with a laser and I dont want 
to add in missiles, I've dumped the CG and reduced the powerplant 
accordingly. Since its ment to be refuelled at annual maintaince (I'd imagine 
you don't just go out buy a couple of enriched plutonium rods from a local store 
and slot them in), I've added in a bit of a safety margin in the fission fuel. I've 
added in some toilets (what the crew and passengers can't just cross their legs 
for six months). I reduced the tech level of the grav compensation to TL 10 to 
reflect the poor standard of Terrran gravitic technology.

Gordon Tracy, Tracy class Longship (FF&S v2)
Designed by Andrew Moffatt-Vallance	

Statistics
 Tons: 200std (SL Slab Hypersonic)
 Crew: 3/5
 Cargo: 100std (1 x 60m2 door, Handling: 1 x 200ton)
 Volume: 2800m3
 Passengers High/Med: 0/5
 Cost: 35.394 MCr
 Mass (L/C): 2987t/1385t
 Passengers Low: 0
 Maintenance Points: 54
 Dimensions: 48.3m x 12.1m x 4.9m
 Troops/Science: 0/0
 Tech Level: 11 (10/11)
 Size: 8
 Frozen Watch: 0

Electronics
 Controls: Dynamic, High automation. 3 x Comp (CM:1.0 CP:1.0). No bridge.
 Communications: 1 x Radio (50,000km, 0.02MW). 1 x Laser (1,000AU, 0MW).
 Sensors: 1 x PEMS (12.5 [1.6mkm], 0MW).
 Survey/Science:
 ECM:
 Signatures: Vis:0.5, IR:-0.5 (-0.5 at 74MW, -0.5 at 8MW), Act:0.5, Neu:-1,
             Grav:0

Weaponry
 1 x Light Laser Turret (+0) 1/1-0-0-0 [3,50/7-3-2-1] (LR)

Performance
 1 Jump (20std/pc fuel)
 0.9/2 Maneuver (Thruster: 70MW)
 0/0 Contra-grav
 1652kph/3360kph Atmosphere (Cruise: 1239kph/2520kph)
 1 Power (Fission: 80MW, 1.2yr)
 0 Battery
 20 Fuel (Scoop: 3 Purif: 8, 1MW)
 0/5/5/0/0 Accomodations (10 x sanitary fittings)
 260 person days life support (Type: Extended, Normal food, stored)
 1 G-Comp (TL 10)
 0 ESA
 0 Sandcasters
 0 Damper Turrets
 0 Damper Screen
 0 Meson Screen
 0 Force Field
 0 Gravtics
 0 [20] Armor, 6 Structure

Features
 2 x Decontamination Airlock
 1 x Ship's locker (0.1std ea.)
 1 x Ordinary Galley (Cap: 10)

Small Craft

Backups
 Drives:
 Screens:
 Communications:
 Sensors:
 Survey/Science:
 ECM:
 Power & Fuel:

Crew Details
 1 x Pilot
 1 x Astrogator
 1 x Engineer
 1 x Gunner
 1 x Medical

One of the most enduring designs to come out of the Interstellar Wars, the
Tracy class were a general purpose tramp freighter serving the many colonies
of the Terran Confederation. The design outlasted the Confederation by a
considerable margin, examples of the class were being constructed in the
Solomani Rim well into the Long Night. The class contains most of the
features that distingushed Terran merchant ships of this period. The most
noticable is the single large cargo dual story cargo bay with its massive
12m x 5m cargo ramp. Other features common to most Terran merchants 
were: the single 2 ton turret mounting a triple 14.5Mj laser (this was the most 
common armarment used on Terran merchants during the Interstellar Wars). 
The closed loop extended life support system, giving the ship unlimited duration
excluding food. The use of a small fission reactor instead of the large fusion 
reactors found in Vilani designs.
Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++++ su+ ge

************************************************************
Of course its safe, I made it myself
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 21:21:35
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Piracy

>From: skribe <skribe@amber.com.au>
>Subject: RE: 20th Century piracy
>
>It depends on what you call a merchant vessel. Illegal fishing fleets are
>detained all the time by armed vessels.  The top end of Australia gets about
>1 per week at times and there have been a few ships detained in the southern
>oceans over the last six months as well.  All for illegal fishing, but
>they're merchants too =)
>- ---
>skribe <skribe@amber.com.au>

If the RAN vessels werent enforcing rights recognised under international
law, this is what I'd call 'state-sponsored piracy'. The ships have
friendly bases, somewhere they can sell off the captured ships etc. Doing
state-sponsored piracy is historically a good way to get into wars with
your neighbours.

The pirates that are operating these days in the South China Sea, the Horn
of Africa, Straits of Malacca etc are what I would call 'seaborne mugging'.
Their target seems not to be the cargo or the ship, but the cash, valuables
and sometimes crew (kidnap for ransom or rape appears to have happened).

Now, if Traveller merchant captains tend to carry large amounts of cash, it
might be viable to use the Traveller equivalent of a speedboat (a small 4G
launch) to match vectors with an unarmed merchant and board. The problem is
that at TL12, your minimum cost is about MCr 2.5 for the t-plates - at TL13
you can use a 1m3 fusion plant and Heplar, so you might be able to shave
that some. It's only at TL14 and up that really cheap spaceships become
viable.

Now, how interested in such a system of spaceborne muggings would the Navy
etc be, as long as trade isnt effected ... I'm not sure. But I do know how
tempting it would be to steal the ship once you got aboard, and hope that
you could make it to a freeport.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 22:44:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Questions

In mail you write:

> Tue, 26 May 1998 09:56:50 -0700, bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan
> Macintosh)
>
>> You'd have to be going at highly relativisitic speeds before hydrogen   
>> starts looking like radiation rather than like gas. (Most interstellar 
>> hydrogen is atomic, btw, not molecular.)
>
> How do you get radiation from collision with neutral atoms (doesn't
> bremsstrahlung only occur with charged particles?).  Or is it thought
> that most of the interstellar hydrogen is charged?  Also, I think
> Loren might want to know what you mean my "highly relativistic".

At a high enough speed, the hydrogen atom acts like a beta particle and
a free proton flying in "close association". That's because the impact
energy is far higher than the energy required to seperate the proton
and electron.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 00:15:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)

In mail you write:

> Kinda simular to Cherenkov radiation, which is the blue light
> reputedly the 'our-space' track of a FTL particle.

No "reputedly" about it. But it's a bit more complicated. Cernkov
radiation is emitted by a particle moving faster than the speed of
light IN THE MEDIUM. You see, the higher the index of refraction, the
*lower* the speed of light. For example, diamond has an index of
refraction of 2.42, which means that the speed of light in diamond is
c/2.42. So any particle moving faster than c/2.42 in diamond will emit
Cerenkov radiation.

It's observed all the time in reactors, as they frequently generate
particles moving faster than the speed of light in the cooling water. 

Oh yeah, the energy in the Cerenkov radiation comes from the particle's
kinetic energy, so emitting Cerenkov radiation slows the particle. 

Thus, we can assume that ships *don't* emit Cerenkov radiation *and
*aren't* in "normal space" while FTL.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 23:26:26 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: nuclear material

"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote in part
> Well, the number of companies that make the stuff would be,
> in my mind, more limited than the number of ships travelling
> in the imperium....

I'd disagree with that assumption.

I believe that in the RW the principal mathod to prevent 
people making nuclear weapons in their high school physics 
lab is by preventing access to the raw materials, principly 
the refined uranium or plutonium. Once we have access to 
the ores of the average system (just go somewhere with an 
asteroid belt) then getting the raw materials isn't hard. 
I've not sufficient tech knowledge to tell how difficult it 
is to refine into useable material, but if it's mostly a 
matter of energy requirements the average Seeker has enough 
spare power to run a small city. 

With a decent Computer operated system, and a good 
chemistry lab, I can't think of a good reason to stop 
someone from a tech 10+ society from building their 
own Nuke from raw materials. Perhaps not as neat and 
precise as a professionally built one, but sufficient to be 
worrying.

Regards

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 14:25:05 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: 20th Century piracy

skribe <skribe@amber.com.au> writes:

>On 27-May-98 Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>>So when was the last time you heard of an armed ship chasing down a
>>merchant ship and capturing it?
> 
>It depends on what you call a merchant vessel. Illegal fishing fleets are
>detained all the time by armed vessels.

Sigh. Yet again I see that I've been too vague. I apologize. While I'm
perfectly willing to accept fishing ships as examples of merchant vessels,
I meant "privately owned gunboat" rather than "national warship" when I
wrote "armed ship". So Australian navy gunboats catching illegal fishermen
don't count for my purpose. The Somali pirates someone else mentioned
seems a lot more likely to qualify. If those Somali pirates actually used
real gunboats, then I will have to back down on that part of my claim.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 14:39:54 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Piracy [long...]

William F. Hostman writes:

>One issue seemingly overlooked is the 3i's stance on inter-member warfare:
>
>[...]
> 
>Essentially, at least in the late 3rd Imperium, inter member warfare is
>seen as a safety valve, p[rovided it doesn't get out of hand. So are
>limited trade-wars. Most "Pirates" are actually going to be privateers,
>going from brushfire war to brushfire war, armed with letters of Marque,
>and "Enforcing" blockades...

Are you talking about real privateers (privately owned warships whose only
expense to the government issueing the letter of marque is a bit of paper)
or starmercs (private ships hired for the duration with full logistic
support (including repairs) supplied by the government that hires them)?
Because if you mean the latter, we've been over that before. It has long
been admitted by us anti-piracy people that if somebody pays your expenses
and losses then private commerce raiding is feasible. What I still don't
believe is that privateering is a winning proposition except in very
exceptional circumstances.

Oh, and don't forget that we're talking about piracy _as portrayed in the
Traveller sources_.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 09:16:00 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: RE: 20th Century piracy

>On 27-May-98 Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>> So when was the last time you heard of an armed ship chasing down a
>> merchant ship and capturing it?
>
>It depends on what you call a merchant vessel. Illegal fishing fleets are
>detained all the time by armed vessels.[snip]

There was story in the Boston Globe a couple of years ago of a fishing boat
from Gloucester (I think) crossing the line into Canadian territory (100
miles offshore) when a canadian submarine surfaced off it's bow and
arrested the whole lot, took the ship into port and impounded it.

Of course, if those Canucks have nothing better to do with their subs than
enforce fishing treaties, I'd say we live in pretty peaceful times.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 09:33:51 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)

Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz> Wrote;
>At 10:49 AM 27/05/98 -0400, Peter H. Brenton wrote:
[big snip]
>>Anyway, 50,000km 'bands' works out to about 50 minute combat turns, if the
>>vector based movement system is used.  I would encourage using this system,
>>but that might fit better with either 16,000km range bands or 65,000 km
>>range bands (and corresponding length combat turns) rather than 50,000km
>>range bands.
>
>IIRC in the designer's notes for Brilliant Lances it was explained that
>they used 30,000 hexes because they matched 30 minutes of movement after
>spending 1 G-turn of acceleration. This means it matches when you consider
>movement at the volocity you get after accelerating, not the distance you
>get while accelerating, which is half as much.

There seems to me to be a gap in logic here, perhaps Rupert or someone can
relieve these questions from my physics challenged mind (I was a Psych
major fer chrissakes);

Doesn't thirty minutes need to elapse while under constant 1G acceleration
to reach the velocity where 30k is covered in 30 minutes?

Isn't distance covered while accellerating?

So shouldn't the movement rate reflect this?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 22:04:42 +0800 (WST)
From: skribe <skribe@amber.com.au>
Subject: RE: 20th Century piracy

On 28-May-98 Peter H. Brenton wrote:
> Of course, if those Canucks have nothing better to do with their subs than
> enforce fishing treaties, I'd say we live in pretty peaceful times.

Its about all you can do with an O-boat these days.  While they're a very
nice sub, and awfully quiet, they are a little long in the tooth.  Our last
one gets decommed next month, I believe, leaving us with 4 new Collins boats,
none of which have their firecontrol software operating properly.

To keep this post on topic (almost), how many of you envision `space warfare'
 to be rather like sub warfare, except whereas subs try to be silent,
spacecraft try to remain unseen and to keep their energy emissions low?  If
subs are the silent service, does this mean the Imperial Navy is the invisible
service? ;)

- ---
skribe 

(who has always envisioned spaceships being cramped and very
submariney rather than the luxury and space you see depicted in most of the
visual entertainment media that's been made.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 16:33:25 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Turnlengths & physics (was Re: Coordinated Jumps)

>Doesn't thirty minutes need to elapse while under constant 1G acceleration
>to reach the velocity where 30k is covered in 30 minutes?
>
>Isn't distance covered while accellerating?
>
>So shouldn't the movement rate reflect this?
>
>Inquiring minds want to know.

Standard physics textbooks will tell you that
(1) distance covered = 1/2 * acceleration * time^2

they will also tell you that
(2) distance covered = velocity * time
and that
(3) velocity = acceleration * time

Putting (3) into (2) will give you
(4) distance covered = acceleration * time * time = acceleration * time^2

Note the discrepancy between (4) and (1), the error stems from the wrong
assumtion that (2) can be used in situations when velocity changes.

For a vector movement gamesystem (4) should be used as the gamesystem is
actually a paper and pencil version of a numerical simulation sampled at
each gameturn. As the number of gameturns increases (4) approaches (1) as
it should:

Turns    (2)+(3)        (1)
============================
1       1               1/2
2       1+2=3           2
3       1+2+3=6         4.5
4       1+2+3+4=10      8
5       1+2+3+4+5=15    12.5
6       21              18
7       28              24.5
8       36              32

Thus if yoy plan to create a vector based game system with only ONE TURN
then use (1) but if you allow multiple gameturns you need to use (2) and
(3) instead. Handy formulae for calculating various parameters in space
combat are (replace 9.81 with 10 if you think FF&S2s acceleration fudge is
agreeable)

Hexscale(in meters) = 9.81 * turnlength^2(in seconds)
or
turnlength(in seconds = sqrt(Hexscale(in meters) / 9.81)

I've answered this a couple of times now - perhaps it should be put on the FAQ?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #527
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 28 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 528



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)
RE: 20th Century piracy
Re: 20th Century piracy
Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)
Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #527
Subs and Sensors
Re: Turnlengths & physics (was Re: Coordinated Jumps)
RE: Subs and Sensors
Space warfare (was 20th century piracy)
Extra-solar Planet Image
RE: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)
Re: Coordinated Jumps - And military tactics
Re: Subs and Sensors
Re: Subs and Sensors
THUDDD Ship Design Archive?
Re: Subs and Sensors
Re: 20th Century piracy
Re: THUDDD Ship Design Archive?
Re: Drop tank system implementation (shorter)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 10:29:22 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)

Peter H. Brenton <pbrenton@mit.edu> wrote:
> 
> I was also thinking that gravitic technology should be able to produce a
> device that causes a big "gravity focus" which could, conveivably, serve
> the same purpose.

There was a larry Niven stroy where this was pretty much the exact 
plot... ships have been disappearing and with the way that Niven works
his hyperdrives, this shouldn't be happening, piracy should be 
impossible - not to mention the fact that these very, VERY expensive 
ships haven't even turned up on the black market (or something
like that).

SPOILER WARNING!

It turns out that some smart guy has caught a quantum black hole and 
is using it's gravity well to cause ships to precipitate out of 
hyperspace unexpectedly. The cool part is that the ships fall out 
of hyperspace upon hitting a gravity well, but the hyperdrives don't. 


:) 

> Then there's the idea of strapping a manuver drove to a relatively large
> object (asteroid or cometary body) and pushing it into the starlanes (time
> consuming, but possible with reactionless thrust).

Cities fall. Oceans rise. Bad move making survives.

> All relatively unusual, but good adventure possibilities.

Someone, anyone - what Niven story was that? It would make a pretty
decent adventure and could easily be fit into a "canon" universe.

Ethan
- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 16:39:17 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: RE: 20th Century piracy

>To keep this post on topic (almost), how many of you envision `space warfare'
> to be rather like sub warfare, except whereas subs try to be silent,
>spacecraft try to remain unseen and to keep their energy emissions low?  If
>subs are the silent service, does this mean the Imperial Navy is the invisible
>service? ;)

I shure envisioned them that way. I had a neat 1000 km square scale space
combat system with non gravfocussed lasers and detection ranges on par with
shooting ranges. Then Bruce came along and set the record straight
regarding detection ranges which blew it to smithereens. Luckily my and
others calculations about when lasers would start to miss an evading ship
due to timelag came out to about the same ranges (100 000 km plus for
really cold, black ships) which fixed things again sort of.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 10:49:19 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: 20th Century piracy

IMTU, space combat is almost always the invisible service.  I mean, with
million klick combat ranges, you want to stay as unobtrusive as
possible...........also, IMTU, I'm planning to use missiles more along
the 2300AD line, small ships with a weapon or warhead, and sensors.  I've
always had a problem with those tiny little missiles reaching out and
touching someone at those ranges.


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
CEO and Founder, Diasporan Industries, Inc.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
Traveller Geek Code tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+)
pi+ he++ merc++ dt+++
GM:  The Scattered Worlds Traveller PbEM

 
On Thu, 28 May 1998 22:04:42 +0800 (WST) skribe <skribe@amber.com.au>
writes:
>
>On 28-May-98 Peter H. Brenton wrote:
>> Of course, if those Canucks have nothing better to do with their 
>subs than
>> enforce fishing treaties, I'd say we live in pretty peaceful times.
>
>Its about all you can do with an O-boat these days.  While they're a very
>nice sub, and awfully quiet, they are a little long in the tooth.  Our last
>one gets decommed next month, I believe, leaving us with 4 new Collins boats,
>none of which have their firecontrol software operating properly.
>
>To keep this post on topic (almost), how many of you envision `space warfare'
> to be rather like sub warfare, except whereas subs try to be silent,
>spacecraft try to remain unseen and to keep their energy emissions low?  If
>subs are the silent service, does this mean the Imperial Navy is the invisible
>service? ;)
>
>---
>skribe 
>
>(who has always envisioned spaceships being cramped and very
>submariney rather than the luxury and space you see depicted in most 
>of the
>visual entertainment media that's been made.)
>
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 16:52:34 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)

>Someone, anyone - what Niven story was that? It would make a pretty
>decent adventure and could easily be fit into a "canon" universe.
>
>Ethan
>--
>Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
>Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

Current thinking about quantum black holes is that there cannot be any as
they will evaporate more or less instantly through Hawking radiation. I
think there is a funny anecdote somewhere about Jerry Pournelle and Niven
racing to be the first to publish a story based on quantum black holes
where Niven beat JP but JP had the satisfaction of telling Niven after
publication that Quantum black holes wouldn't work.
(Time hasn't been kind to Niven now when it seems bussard Ramscoops won't
reach very high velocities due to drag. Bussard ships are a staple in
Nivens stories)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 10:27:01 -0500
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)

"Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu> asked:

> Doesn't thirty minutes need to elapse while under constant 1G acceleration
> to reach the velocity where 30k is covered in 30 minutes?
>
> Isn't distance covered while accellerating?
>
> So shouldn't the movement rate reflect this?

You're right, but you're missing a minor detail.  

Let's take the BEOWULF, at the start of turn one at rest relative to the
game board (speed zero). 

In turn one, it accelerates at two gees for the whole turn, changing its
speed from zero to two.  However, its average speed during the first turn
is only *one*, because it's building up speed continuously all turn.

In turn two, it doesn't accelerate.  Since its vector from the previous
turn is two, it moves *two* hexes this turn, and on all subsequent turns
until it accelerates again.

Let's say on turn five BEOWULF accelerates at two gees along the same
vector.  In turn five, she moves at speed three ( 2 from turn one + 1
from the average speed this turn ) and in turn six she moves at speed
four ( 2 from turn one + 2 from the final speed after turn five ).

Since this more realistic approach requires extra bookkeeping, the basic
rules usually assume all changes in velocity are applied instantly, not
over the course of the turn, to simplify matters.  Otherwise, you must
each turn:
  * apply the other half of last turn's acceleration vector (if any)
  * apply half of any new acceleration vector this turn
  * record the other half of new acceleration for application next turn

This can get a bit confusing for new players, especially when there are
course changes involved.

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 03:19:43
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #527

>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
>Subject: Re: Tracy class Longship, as modified by Ditzammer Spofulam
>
>Please thank Dizzie for her wonderful comments. Unfortunatly though a meson 
>gun would be neat, the design is ment to be an old IW Terran ship and they 
>didn't have them back then. However I've redesigned the ship in light of her 
>comments. I kept the armarment the same (but dumped the AEMS) since I 
>can't seem to get the design to do anything better with a laser and I dont
want 
>to add in missiles, I've dumped the CG and reduced the powerplant 
>accordingly. Since its ment to be refuelled at annual maintaince (I'd
imagine 
>you don't just go out buy a couple of enriched plutonium rods from a local
store 
>and slot them in), I've added in a bit of a safety margin in the fission
fuel. I've 
>added in some toilets (what the crew and passengers can't just cross their
legs 
>for six months). I reduced the tech level of the grav compensation to TL
10 to 
>reflect the poor standard of Terrran gravitic technology.

Nope, Meson Guns were one of the weapons that won the Terrans the Nth
Interstellar War. They are TL11 in any case - and as a Long Night retrofit,
they make perfect sense to me (great for intimidating helpless worlds with
no space defenses).

1 gee of grav comp is plenty for a freighter anyway. It still needs real
computers (CM 1.0 is no computer).

The lower sticker price and bigger cargo bay seems to have helped
profitibility - repayments look to be about KCr150 a month, and 100 dtons
of cargo should return around KCr180 a month. Any passenger revenue can
thus be dedicated to paying crew costs and life support, and saving up for
the fuel bill (by my numbers KCr600 a year ... better do some favours for
some mining colonies, and buy the stuff wholesale).

With armament, shouldnt a 100 MJ, 2m diameter laser have a range of 60
000km or so (about the range of your PEMS) be about 3.15m3 for the focusing
array. Chemical laser cartridges are 500kg apiece, or about 30 m3 of
accumulator plus power input of 500 MW over firing time - 25 m3 of
batteries will give you a shot every 20 seconds for an hour. Toss in a 1.6
m3 50kkm beam pointer and we have ourselves a civilian laser.

Now, thats about 60 m3 - call it 4 dtons. The laser, beam pointer and
accumulator fit in a 42m3 turret - I assume you can put batteries anywhere.
This weapon will have a DV of 25, as compared to about 10 for the 14.5 MJ
version. I interpret DV 25 to mean penetrating an AV of 25 ... which means
DV10 wont punch a spaceship hull, no matter how many pulses hit (blind the
sensors or disrupt the lanthanum grid, maybe).

Ian Whitchurch 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 03:36:07
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Subs and Sensors

>Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 22:04:42 +0800 (WST)
>From: skribe <skribe@amber.com.au>
>
>Its about all you can do with an O-boat these days.  While they're a very
>nice sub, and awfully quiet, they are a little long in the tooth.  Our last
>one gets decommed next month, I believe, leaving us with 4 new Collins boats,
>none of which have their firecontrol software operating properly.
>

Tell you what. I'll take a 100km patrol line of six Oberons backed up with
three Orions, and you see how many nuclear submarines get blown up crossing
it.

>To keep this post on topic (almost), how many of you envision `space warfare'
> to be rather like sub warfare, except whereas subs try to be silent,
>spacecraft try to remain unseen and to keep their energy emissions low?  If
>subs are the silent service, does this mean the Imperial Navy is the
invisible
>service? ;)

One problem with this is under FFS, ships are rather easily detected at
well outside weapons range. The reasoning came from Bruce Macintosh,
professional astronomer and all-around sensor guru, who pointed out that
space is dark and cold, and ships are bright and hot. Weapons start to
become ineffective at half a million km or so, as light lag takes hold, but
cheap sensors spot ships at millions of km.

Essentially, it gets to be like Age of Sail combat - ships either consent
to combat, or are trapped without fuel and forced to fight (the historical
analogy is trapped against a coastline eg Trafalger).

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 09:16:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Turnlengths & physics (was Re: Coordinated Jumps)

Anders Backman writes:
> 
> Standard physics textbooks will tell you that
(computations deleted)
Distance covered = (median velocity) * time.  For a constantly accelerating
object, median velocity is V0 (initial velocity) + 1/2 acceleration*time, which
works out that distance = V0*T + AT^2.

> For a vector movement gamesystem (4) should be used as the gamesystem is
> actually a paper and pencil version of a numerical simulation sampled at
> each gameturn. As the number of gameturns increases (4) approaches (1) as
> it should:

For accurate vector movement with the standard turns and hexes, assume that
G-turn of acceleration adds 1 hex/turn to your vector, and that for your
position at the end of the turn only add _half_ the velocity from acceleration
to distance.  As this is likely to generate half-hexes of position, you might
want to halve the size of hexes (and thus generate a vector of 2/turn).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 01:04:22 +0800 (WST)
From: skribe <skribe@amber.com.au>
Subject: RE: Subs and Sensors

On 28-May-98 Ian or Katts wrote:
> Tell you what. I'll take a 100km patrol line of six Oberons backed up with
> three Orions, and you see how many nuclear submarines get blown up crossing
> it.

Finding 6 O-boats that are still combat ready will be somewhat difficult.  I
agree with you BTW, they're a good boat.  I think I've said that already.

> One problem with this is under FFS, ships are rather easily detected at
> well outside weapons range. The reasoning came from Bruce Macintosh,
> professional astronomer and all-around sensor guru, who pointed out that
> space is dark and cold, and ships are bright and hot. Weapons start to
> become ineffective at half a million km or so, as light lag takes hold, but
> cheap sensors spot ships at millions of km.

Haven't read FFS.  Play mostly MT and CT.  I would have thought that the
ships would have been shielded and there would have been found a way to
dissipate energy so that sensors would have a hard time picking it up. 
Unlikely (impossible?), given current physics, but then again so is FTL
travel, but it's a staple of Traveller and countless other SF text.

Plus I prefer reality to take a backseat to fun and playability. YMMV.
- ---
skribe <skribe@amber.com.au>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 13:26:47 -0400
From: Andy Slack <AndySlack@compuserve.com>
Subject: Space warfare (was 20th century piracy)

Message text written by skribe:
>To keep this post on topic (almost), how many of you envision `space
warfare'
 to be rather like sub warfare, except whereas subs try to be silent,
spacecraft try to remain unseen and to keep their energy emissions low?  If
subs are the silent service, does this mean the Imperial Navy is the
invisible
service? ;)<

Me for one. If nothing else, it means there are a number of interesting sources
and gives me an excuse to watch all those old sub movies again.
Plus, the lightspeed lag for sensor returns means you have a similar set of
problems (and solutions) for tracking enemy starships as you do for finding
subs based on (say) airplane sightings.

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 13:04:19 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Extra-solar Planet Image

Just an FYI. BTW, if my science posts are annoying, please
let me know and I'll stop.

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Hubble Space Telescope has
captured the first actual image of a planet outside our own
solar system, NASA said Wednesday. 

The picture will be debuted at a press conference scheduled
for 1 p.m. EDT Thursday at the National Aeronautics
and Space Administration headquarters in Washington. 

NASA says the image shows a planet that is 2-to-3 times the
mass of the Jupiter and is located near a newly-forming binary
star system. Such a systems consists of two stars very close
together and orbiting each other. 

NASA says the finding has to be further substantiated and
confirmed, but if it all holds up this will be the most important
discovery to date made by the Hubble Space Telescope.

ObTrav:  There's been a discussion on whether or ship crews 
can detect gas giants in an unexplored system. My take is
"yes" *if* they know what to look for (i.e. someone has the
Survey skill at least CT skill level 2 minimum.

What types of sensors would be necessary for this, though?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 11:15:27 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)

So, is Cherenkov/Cernkov radiation dangerous, or is it just "pretty blue
lights?"

Brian (not a physics major) Mays

>> Kinda simular to Cherenkov radiation, which is the blue light
>> reputedly the 'our-space' track of a FTL particle.
>
>No "reputedly" about it. But it's a bit more complicated. Cernkov
>radiation is emitted by a particle moving faster than the speed of
>light IN THE MEDIUM. You see, the higher the index of refraction, the
>*lower* the speed of light. For example, diamond has an index of
>refraction of 2.42, which means that the speed of light in diamond is
>c/2.42. So any particle moving faster than c/2.42 in diamond will emit
>Cerenkov radiation.
>
>It's observed all the time in reactors, as they frequently generate
>particles moving faster than the speed of light in the cooling water.
>
>Oh yeah, the energy in the Cerenkov radiation comes from the particle's
>kinetic energy, so emitting Cerenkov radiation slows the particle.
>
>Thus, we can assume that ships *don't* emit Cerenkov radiation *and
>*aren't* in "normal space" while FTL.
>
>--
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 98 08:46 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Coordinated Jumps - And military tactics

Moin Keven R. Pittsinger,

> IMTU, the re-entry effects of an incoming starship can be detected at about 3 
> light-minutes (54million klicks, or about half an AU), propagated at 
> lightspeed of course.  Kinda simular to Cherenkov radiation, which is the blue 
> light reputedly the 'our-space' track of a FTL particle.

	this is similar in our campain. Our consense is that a jump
	explosion at 100 diameter can be seen even on a bright day. This
	gives the defender of a word a certain advantage, but a fleet
	that exits at 3000 diameter using the flash of each others jump
	explosion to accellerate unseen, and go silent soon after has a
	large advantage. This advantage is even increased by the light
	lag. To the time the defenders world know about the intruders,
	the fleet had time to collect sensors and moved.

	Back to the coordination of jump. High guard has a table for
	computers and sizes. Or formular is to add the displement of all
	vessels and multiply it with the square (not root!) of the
	number's of vessels. This gives the minimum computer size for
	the job. So a 1bis is able to cordinate 2 scouts, while a 6fib
	(TL:12) normaly sufficient for 100.000dt would allow to
	coordinate 10 vessels of around 1000 dt to jump.

	So perhaps the main reason for using an escord for a trade
	convoy is the better computer. Trader most times have the cheap
	1bis, which is ok for ship's below 600dt. An escord with a
	model/6 could make a large convoy possible, and the sheer number
	of armed vessels would distract pirates much more that the
	escord itself.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 14:38:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael and MJ Houghton <herveus@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Subs and Sensors

Howdy!

skribe wrote:
> 
> Haven't read FFS.  Play mostly MT and CT.  I would have thought that the
> ships would have been shielded and there would have been found a way to
> dissipate energy so that sensors would have a hard time picking it up. 
> Unlikely (impossible?), given current physics, but then again so is FTL
> travel, but it's a staple of Traveller and countless other SF text.
> 
> Plus I prefer reality to take a backseat to fun and playability. YMMV.

The reality is that there is going to be a fair amount of waste heat
to be radiated. A typical ship is going to be unusually bright in the IR
portion of the spectrum, under normal circumstances. A passive IR scan
should be able to spot ships without too much difficulty. Of course,
IYTU, the specific value of "too much" is rather up to you.

yours,
Herveus


- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@access.digex.net  | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.access.digex.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 13:10:37 PDT
From: "Paul Zumstein" <pzumstein@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Subs and Sensors

>From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>

>One problem with this is under FFS, ships are rather easily detected at
>well outside weapons range. The reasoning came from Bruce Macintosh,
>professional astronomer and all-around sensor guru, who pointed out 
that
>space is dark and cold, and ships are bright and hot. Weapons start to

I have a general (and possibly dumb) question, would tactically placing 
you ship between the local star and the opponent you wish to hide 
from/sneak up on give you any advantage?

PZ

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 08:46:19 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: THUDDD Ship Design Archive?

Damn and similar words of annoyance

I just managed to lose my collection of Ship Designs that were done for the
THUDDD competitions.  Were these ever collected in a web site anywhere?

Steve Charlton

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 14:08:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Subs and Sensors

Paul Zumstein writes:
> 
> I have a general (and possibly dumb) question, would tactically placing 
> you ship between the local star and the opponent you wish to hide 
> from/sneak up on give you any advantage?

There are a lot of things which you can do to give you an advantage if you know
where the person trying to sense you is; being backlit by a star will swamp
your signature, requiring locating you by silhoutte -- which is generally going
to be impossible beyond a million kilometers or so (a ten meter lens has enough
resolution that in theory it could detect a thousand-ton craft at that range. 
In practice, it probably won't).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 17:26:38 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: 20th Century piracy

Sigh, back at you.......

No Hans, you weren't too vague.  I posted a web page dedicated to modern
piracy.  Someone else added another three or four web pages to that (one was
LLoyds), all of which conclusively state that piracy IS happening today.
The problem is Hans, even when your confronted with overwhelming evidence
that piracy is occurring  (and I'm not talking about a countries naval
vessels confronting fishing fleets) you just refuse to accept it and ADMIT
YOUR WRONG.  Go out on the web and do your own research, I've done mine!

I will admit OPENLY that I agree with your statements when talking about a
STABLE Imperium with STABLE borders.  But at the fringes, even when the 3I
was solid, there would be NUMEROUS possibilities for Piracy to occur.
Whether this is done by the Varg, Aslan, Solomani or Imperial Warrant it
matters not.

I don't have any intention of FORCING you to change your mind, just stop
putting other people down for believing that the possibility exists.  It
does exist, it is Traveller Canon and there is modern day piracy here on
Earth.

Thom

- -----Original Message-----
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: 20th Century piracy


>skribe <skribe@amber.com.au> writes:
>
>>On 27-May-98 Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>>>So when was the last time you heard of an armed ship chasing down a
>>>merchant ship and capturing it?
>>
>>It depends on what you call a merchant vessel. Illegal fishing fleets are
>>detained all the time by armed vessels.
>
>Sigh. Yet again I see that I've been too vague. I apologize. While I'm
>perfectly willing to accept fishing ships as examples of merchant vessels,
>I meant "privately owned gunboat" rather than "national warship" when I
>wrote "armed ship". So Australian navy gunboats catching illegal fishermen
>don't count for my purpose. The Somali pirates someone else mentioned
>seems a lot more likely to qualify. If those Somali pirates actually used
>real gunboats, then I will have to back down on that part of my claim.
>
>      Hans Rancke

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 14:31:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: THUDDD Ship Design Archive?

On Wed, 27 May 1998 scharlto@ifsna.com wrote:

> Damn and similar words of annoyance
> 
> I just managed to lose my collection of Ship Designs that were done for the
> THUDDD competitions.  Were these ever collected in a web site anywhere?

http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/thuddd.html

On this topic, the horribly-delayed THUDDD 9 will *finally* get back under
way soon.  All the forces of the Universe have been arrayed against it,
but fortunately, I'm very stubborn. :) 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 15:02:25 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation (shorter)

Wed, 27 May 1998 23:46:12 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven
Hudson)
>  "In an area with no trade, no trading ships will be converted".
>If that's not a tautology (def'n: "needless repetition of an idea
>in different words") I'd like to know what it is. It certainly 
>doesn't seem to be a compelling point to me.

Well, from where I sat, the point that is was pointless to
argue that trade was converted to a new system in areas where
trade was so massively disrupted wasn't being address.   It certainly
wasn't being repeation of a point made before (let along a "needless"
one).

However, I don't really remember the point well enough
to continue (and my intrest has wained anyway).  I'll
have to bow out after this.  Sorry.  I will finish
out the reply to this message.

>So, the nature of politics in the Imperium is such that
>the Imperium, which seems to exist solely to wage war (as the occasion
>presents) IYTU, can effectively confiscate the profits from a huge
>investment by the mega-corps in a more efficient technology? Even if
>true, wouldn't that be a very serious barrier to investment?

Well, I never argued that they would "confiscate" _all_ their
profits.  I think it is quite reasonable they would tax them
(especially if those profits depend on the services that those
taxes provide).

>>>and probably respond by not investing very much at all in the new
>>>tech

>>They will if the savings in new tech are greater than the
>>taxes.

>  _If the savings are greater_ _and the risk is demonstrably low_
>_relative to the investment_. I suspect that most economists or
>CA's would agree with that; therefore, wouldn't implementation
>be quite radically drawn out?

I'm sorry, I don't follow.  It seemed you were agreeing with
me that the savings just need to exceed risk and investment.
Then you threw in the is point about it being radically 
drawn out.  I don't see where it came from.

>>Don't put words in my mouth.  They won't raise taxes to
>>pay for internal security potrols that are seen as being
>>justified by the need.

>  You've repeatedly stated that you don't believe that the Imperium
>_will_ maintain serious (IMO) internal security.   IIRC, you may have
>stated during the Navy budget debat that it wasn't possible either.
>Do you have a definitive opinion or analysis?

The point here is the "IMO".  What you consider "serious" I
consider unecessary.  I do agree that the Navy will have
maintain serious internal security, I just don't agree
with your view of what that is.

>  So is it a given that ships built to address external threats
>are unusable for internal security missions?

I wouldt go that far.  But I wouldn't say they are free either.
There are some missions that could be done with small
decreases in readyness.  However, full time patrols of
all areas of the Imperium goes well beyond, IMO, this
point.
 
>Are there no linkages
>or correlations between these missions? Are designated internal
>security vessels unusable for external (or internal wartime) tasks?

Why do people, when I say I don't agree with one extreme,
demand I defend the other extreme?   :-)

>  Given the absolute revenues and the number of designated taskings
>within the Imperiums purview there will very likely be money left
>over for internal security or the Navy.

There is never "money left over" in large organizations.  If
one need doesn't get it, there is always something else that
wants it.  I do agree that the Navy will spend money on internal
security.  This program will have compete with all the other
needs that exist.

>>They don't sit in the open and try and run.  They sit under
>>protection and come out when the convoy shows up.

>  They'll have to land then, as any realistic combat model using
>Traveller beam ranges will have freighters in near-orbital space
>being gutted like so many fish. Stations are worse off.

Well, in fact mesons can hit surface targets just as well as
orbital ones.  Also, don't planetary mesons have more
range than ship board?  However, in system where planetary
defenses are limited, they might use the surface to hide....

>  I agree about the Rebellion, but if sufficient patrols (probably
>including some of the small SDB's) are maintained in peacetime to
>watch for enemy intelligence ships, or infiltration leading up to
>an attack, then how can these patrols not serve any anti-piracy
>function beyond the ~100 diameter limits (which latter would only
>need a handful of dedicated vessels, and then only when local
>resources are inadequate to supply the protection level desired)?

Well, I'm not sure they _can_ detect every single intelligence
ships (many of which will just be merchant ships).  But these
patrols would be near the boarder and would only have to spot
and report, rather than intercept and defeat.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #528
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 28 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 529



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: nuclear material
RE: 20th Century piracy
Re: Subs and Sensors
Re: 20th Century piracy
Protection of Commerce on Treece
Protection of Commerce on Treece, Jae Tellona, Vland
System Defense Stations
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #528
Re: Heretic blues (long, silly)
Information Gathering with Sensors
Re: System Defense Stations
Re: Drop tank system implementation 
New Website
Re: Protection of Commerce on Treece
Imperial Navy taskings (not piracy?)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 15:05:46 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: nuclear material

Thu, 28 May 1998 23:26:26 +1200, Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>

> "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote in part
> > Well, the number of companies that make the stuff would be,
> > in my mind, more limited than the number of ships travelling
> > in the imperium....

> I'd disagree with that assumption.
 
> I believe that in the RW the principal mathod to prevent 
> people making nuclear weapons in their high school physics 
> lab is by preventing access to the raw materials, principly 
> the refined uranium or plutonium. Once we have access to 
> the ores of the average system (just go somewhere with an 
> asteroid belt) then getting the raw materials isn't hard.

I was trying refere sources points that such things could be
stopped at generally, be they raw materials,  processor facilities,
or technical components.   It was not my intention to
invoke one over the other.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 15:43:58 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: RE: 20th Century piracy

>To keep this post on topic (almost), how many of you envision `space warfare'
> to be rather like sub warfare, except whereas subs try to be silent,
>spacecraft try to remain unseen and to keep their energy emissions low?

Somewhat....

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 15:48:53 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Subs and Sensors

Thu, 28 May 1998 14:38:20 -0400 (EDT), Michael and MJ Houghton
<herveus@access.digex.net>
> The reality is that there is going to be a fair amount of waste heat
> to be radiated. A typical ship is going to be unusually bright in the IR
> portion of the spectrum, under normal circumstances. A passive IR scan
> should be able to spot ships without too much difficulty. Of course,
> IYTU, the specific value of "too much" is rather up to you.

Except you can play games with changing the wavelength of emmisions and 
with emitting directionally.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 15:03:33 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: 20th Century piracy

Hello,
...
>that piracy is occurring  (and I'm not talking about a countries naval
>vessels confronting fishing fleets) you just refuse to accept it and ADMIT
>YOUR WRONG.  Go out on the web and do your own research, I've done mine!

  I can't speak for Mr. Rancke-Madsen, but ISTR that the original thread was
one about piracy occurring _with very expensive vessels capturing each other_,
and merely got shortened at some point. Taxing by speed-boats or break-ins
at the dock were both left out, although the former clearly has some
validity.

  However, given the relation of capital requirements, it would be much
more accurate to discuss piracy/commerce raiding in great waters, which
while not a current phenomenon is a well-documented one.

>I will admit OPENLY that I agree with your statements when talking about a
>STABLE Imperium with STABLE borders.  But at the fringes, even when the 3I
>was solid, there would be NUMEROUS possibilities for Piracy to occur.
>Whether this is done by the Varg, Aslan, Solomani or Imperial Warrant it
>matters not.

  Me Too! FWIW, I don't recall anyone claiming that piracy was impossible
(although the accusation gets made regularly); the debate oscillates
between what is the nature of piracy on the frontiers, and why it is/isn't
/should be impossible in core regions.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 1998 10:31 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Protection of Commerce on Treece

Treece 2311 D232866-8    Na Po              610 Im M1 V 

...a sad little world in the Marches.  Using the "Rob & Jon"
trade method (http://www.metronet.com/~washi/Tas/Starports/),
It looks like Treece gets approximately

	1000 passengers per week    = 50k passengers per year
	4000 tons of cargo per week = 200k tons cargo per year

At an average of, say, 5000 Cr per passenger, and 1kCr per ton
of cargo, the throughput of this trade route is

	weekly: 5000 x 1000   + 4000    x 1000 = MCr 9
	yearly: 5000 x 50,000 + 200,000 x 1000 = MCr 450

   Half a billion credits per year: about the price of one ship
   plus crew plus maintenance.

Perhaps Treece, then, has MCr 450 in permanent system defense.
In addition, a patrol ship wanders by once in awhile:

   Patrol Ship cost: MCr 400 (??)
   Weekly Revenue  : MCr 9
   Patrol ship frequency: 9 in 400, or 1 in 44

   One week for every 44 weeks on patrol, this ship will be in the
   Treece system.  I'm sure this doesn't count time in jump, so
   a visit every 88 real weeks might be in order here.

Opinions?

Rob

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 1998 13:41 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Protection of Commerce on Treece, Jae Tellona, Vland

Hello all.

I am soliciting your opinions about the system defense analysis
below, especially suggestions.  In an effort to make the rules
simpler, I fudge and approximate; any suggestions to further
fudge and approximate are welcome, with the restriction that
it holds to the system trade article already written on my webpage;
vis, that the "passengers per week" number is ultimately the hard 
data to base all modifications and extrapolations on.  How I go
about extrapolating depends on my thoughts and your suggestions.

Rob

I. Underlying Assumptions

The Imperium is interested in preserving trade between member worlds.
System defense, then, is in direct proportion to the volume of trade
on that world.  Interplanetary trade for a system can be computed using
the "Rob & Jon" starport trade system; therefore, a good idea of what
that system's worth can be taken directly from there.

Ok, since my script uses a reasonable trade variant of the
"Rob & Jon" starport trade system, I'll use it to do the numbers.  
The article and its accompanying script, by the way, is at

http://www.metronet.com/~washi/Tas/Starports/
http://www.metronet.com/~washi/Tas/Starports/starporttrade2.html

II. Example One - Treece

Treece Trade Volume

Treece        2311 D232866-8    Na Po              610 Im M1 V 
Yori          2110 C360757-A    Ri De              713 Im F1 V        
Inthe         2410 B575776-9  A Ag                 423 Im F8 V        
Keanou        2411 C792348-7  S Lo Ni              213 Im M3 III M2 D  
Echiste       2313 C53A313-A    Lo Ni Wa           720 Im G4 V  

Passengers per week:  3000
Freight per week   : 12000
Revenue per week   : MCr27

Treece System Defense

Suppose the system defense fleet's yearly budget is equal to one week's 
revenue for the system.  This means Treece is probably making payments on 
a fleet of SDBs and fighters:

	SDB yearly payments : MCr20
	Fighter yearly paymt: Cr750,000

So Treece probably has one SDB (or two if they're used) that it's making
payments on, plus maybe 8 fighters, and they're using the class D starport
for their base of operations.  The remaining cash goes into sundries, such
as maintenance and salaries.

For a more conservative estimate, I would suggest this rule of thumb:
   Passengers per week / 10 = system defense tonnage

Treece Patrol Frequency

Revenue/Patrol Ship Value ratio:  MCr27 / MCr440 = 1 / 16
Treece will also have a patrol ship in system 1 week out of 16.  If 
patrols last 2 weeks, then that scales up to 2 weeks out of 32.

For an estimate directly from passenger volume, use
	Passengers per week / 50,000

III. Example Two - Jae Tellona

Now for a sanity check.
Let's pick a high-volume port.

Jae Tellona Trade Volume

Jae Tellona   2814 A560565-8  N Ni De              913 Im F9 IV
Porozlo       2715 A867A74-B    Hi                 201 Im M1 V M9 D   
Rhylanor      2716 A434934-F  A Hi Cp              810 Im M2 VI       
Celepina      2913 B434456-9  A Ni                 201 Im M2 VI       

Passengers per week: 310,000
Freight per week   : 1,240,000 t
Revenue per week   : BCr 2.8

Jae Tellona System Defense

Jae Tellona probably buys a quality fleet for its money.  A billion
credits is nothing to sneeze at.  It would probably be making payments
on 100 system defense boats, plus a few hundred fighters.  It will
also be putting cash into establishing and maintaining depots and
bases of operations throughout the system, especially the gas giants.

Another way of looking at it: JT can make payments on roughly 56,000
tons of system defense ships, including boats, bases, troops, and
perhaps even a jump-0 carrier.

This really looks reasonable to me.  The numbers aren't as astronomical
as I've seen posted in the past (using pocket empire naval stats from
Trillion Credit Squadron, or Striker, or Pocket Empires).  They really
seem... well, low in comparison, but I like them lower anyhow.  Because
I like the frontier feel that the Marches should have.

Using my conservative rule of thumb as an alternate method, we get:
	Passengers per week / 10 = 31,000 tons for system defense

Jae Tellona Patrol Frequency

Revenue/Patrol Ship Value ratio: BCr2.8 / MCr440 = 6 or 7
Due to its large volume, 6 or 7 patrol ships will be in system at
any given time.

Using my alternate rule of thumb, we get:
	Passengers per week / 50,000 = 6 patrol ships

IV. Example Three - Vland
 
Now for another sanity check.
Let's pick Vland.

Vland Trade Volume

Vland	1717 A967A9A-F
Enaa	1716 B300859-A
Shinla	1816 C1608A9-B
Tauri	1817 A130998-E
Kirma	1718 A797111-F

Passengers per week: from 800,000 to 1,200,000
Freight per week   : from 3.2 Mt  to 4.8 Mt
Revenue per week   : from BCr 7.2 to BCr 11

Vland System Defense

Assuming Vland has a budget of BCr10, it can afford just about anything
it wants.  It has about 4 times the strength of Jae Tellona.  Expect to
see big bad squadrons.

Using the conservative rule, we get:
	 1,000,000 / 10 = 100,000 tons for system defense

Vland Patrol Frequency

Revenue/Patrol Ship Value ratio: BCr10 / MCr440 = 22
Vland has about 8800 tons of patrol ships in its system at any given 
time (22 ships x 400 tons/ship = 8800 tons).

Using the alternate rule, we get:
	1,000,000 / 50,000 = 20 patrol ships

V. Summary

A few months ago, Jon Buller and I cooked up a relatively simple
way to calculate trade between two systems, and by implication a
way to calculate the total interstellar trade in one system.
From this, then, we have attached a revenue onto every system.
Since the 3I protects trade, then, the budget for this protection
can be tied into the commercial revenue of a system.  By making a
few major assumptions (i.e. one week of trade in a system equals
the system defense budget and determines the patrol schedule for 
that world), hard numbers have been derived as to how well-guarded
any given system is.  Moreover, the results appear to scale nicely,
allowing people to scale defense up or down based on how the 
Imperium operates in their Traveller Universe.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 1998 14:45 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: System Defense Stations

Does it make sense to have system defense stations --
space platforms which have a very very low (0.1G or less) 
acceleration, are heavily armored, and are just bristling 
with weapons?  How about fuel/maintenance stations?

If so, what would this beast look like on a QSDS worksheet
or FF&S2 worksheet?  Any takers?  What would be a good
range of displacements and costs?

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 10:36:05
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #528

>From: skribe <skribe@amber.com.au>
>Subject: RE: Subs and Sensors
>
>On 28-May-98 Ian or Katts wrote:
>> Tell you what. I'll take a 100km patrol line of six Oberons backed up with
>> three Orions, and you see how many nuclear submarines get blown up crossing
>> it.
>
>Finding 6 O-boats that are still combat ready will be somewhat difficult.  I
>agree with you BTW, they're a good boat.  I think I've said that already.
>

Being an old fashioned kinda guy, I believe that if you have good but old
weapon systems that are falling apart, you just build new-construction old
tech things - the B52 and Oberons are at the top of my list.

>> One problem with this is under FFS, ships are rather easily detected at
>> well outside weapons range. The reasoning came from Bruce Macintosh,
>> professional astronomer and all-around sensor guru, who pointed out that
>> space is dark and cold, and ships are bright and hot. Weapons start to
>> become ineffective at half a million km or so, as light lag takes hold, but
>> cheap sensors spot ships at millions of km.
>
>Haven't read FFS.  Play mostly MT and CT.  I would have thought that the
>ships would have been shielded and there would have been found a way to
>dissipate energy so that sensors would have a hard time picking it up. 
>Unlikely (impossible?), given current physics, but then again so is FTL
>travel, but it's a staple of Traveller and countless other SF text.
>

If we assume a way around entropy, then a couple more things crop up -
surface area requirements for power plants will disappear. Some people want
this, to simplify FFS' design sequences.

Secondly, how much is such a shielding system cost - if it's in the
megacredit range, most civilians wont have it, and it will only be a factor
for the military.

>Plus I prefer reality to take a backseat to fun and playability. YMMV.

I agree - the trick is figuring the implications first. Players thinking
new, innovative and game-breaking things in session is annoying.

>- ---
>skribe <skribe@amber.com.au>
>
>-----
>From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
>Subject: Re: 20th Century piracy
>
>I will admit OPENLY that I agree with your statements when talking about a
>STABLE Imperium with STABLE borders.  But at the fringes, even when the 3I
>was solid, there would be NUMEROUS possibilities for Piracy to occur.
>Whether this is done by the Varg, Aslan, Solomani or Imperial Warrant it
>matters not.
>

Nope. Take the naval budgets of Trin, Rhylanor and Mora - the three big, hi
tech, industrial worlds of the Spinward Marches. Allocate an
internal-security budget of Cr 5 per person per year. Some of this is paid
through the Subsector and Sector Navies, some is paid for via the Bank of
Regina etc supporting piracy suppression activitiesa (if a Free Trader with
a mortgage gets taken, the owner-captain loses his life. It is the bank
that takes the MCr 50 hit on it's bottom line).

>I don't have any intention of FORCING you to change your mind, just stop
>putting other people down for believing that the possibility exists.  It
>does exist, it is Traveller Canon and there is modern day piracy here on
>Earth.
>

Name me three ships on international shipping that have been taken by armed
force, and either been stripped of cargo or have been sold off in their
entirety in a freeport.

Now, look at Traveller sensor and combat ranges vis a vis the 100 diameter
limit.

Now, look at the cost of a ship that will defeat a civilian.

Now, look at jump lag and the time freighters spend in port, and give me
three reasons why your bank will not, as a requirement of your starship
mortgage, require you to notify your next port of call via the first
available ship going there.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 16:41:00 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Heretic blues (long, silly)

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> As I've been saying all along my comments relate to MTU, but it *would* be
> nice if *something* official was similar to how I do things.  The "c"
> people will be telling me I'm not playing Traveller again.  ;->
> 
> Eris,
>     even heretics get the blues! ;->

The lonesome sound of a blues harp starts softly in the background,
followed by a guitar riff: <BAwaaahhh ba wump!>

"Got dem ol' heretic blues yah baybeee
I got 'em real bad.....

<BAwaaahhh ba wump!>


"Mah traveller universe aint official...
Feel like all dem canon's they aimed at me!

<BAwaaahhh ba wump!>

mah ships move by w-w-w-warp, dey run on vacc tubes...
Mah charcters are FUDGEd, or GURPSy at least...

<BAwaaahhh ba wump!>

The Timelines all screwey..
don know what milieu we're at!

<BAwaaahhh ba wump!>

I don' use all the rules...
Make 'em up where I please!

<BAwaaahhh ba wump!>

Got dem ol' heretic blues yah baybeee!
Feel like all dem canon's they aimed at me!

<Wild guitar and harp finish>

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 11:26:40 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Information Gathering with Sensors

I was pondering the various sensor rules and discussions we've had, and it
struck me that I've never seen anything on what you can find out about
other ships, and how hard this might be. 

For example I imagine that once you've got a lock with a passive sensor you
will know the current output of the opponent, and by checking his emission
spectrum you'd be able to run him through your database to see what you
already know about him. I also think that you'd get some sort of visual
picture of him if you're using PEMS. With active sensors you'd get a
reflection profile that you could also use for getting an ID, etc.

The thing is I've no idea what else you could tell, or how hard and/or time
consuming this would be.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 01:35:11 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: System Defense Stations

Robert Eaglestone wrote:
> 
> Does it make sense to have system defense stations --
> space platforms which have a very very low (0.1G or less)
> acceleration, are heavily armored, and are just bristling
> with weapons?  How about fuel/maintenance stations?
Fuel and maintenance stations are what the orbital component of the Starports already includes,
most of the time.
Armed stations are only useful for the defence of such obital installations in my eyes. There
they can really use their adavantages.
Given the distances and space involved for defense of specific planets (SIZE!) or even systems,
they wont be effective for othr duty. That stay the responsibility of the SDBs! 
- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 15:55:02 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation 

(assuming this isn't a problem, the Navy portion of this
 thread has set up its' own household)
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation (shorter)
...
>Well, from where I sat, the point that is was pointless to
>argue that trade was converted to a new system in areas where
>trade was so massively disrupted wasn't being address.   It certainly
>wasn't being repeation of a point made before (let along a "needless" one).

  Well, it was your point. 

...
>Well, I never argued that they would "confiscate" _all_ their
>profits.  I think it is quite reasonable they would tax them
>(especially if those profits depend on the services that those
>taxes provide).

  What do you think makes for a good accounting basis for Imperial
taxation of mega-corps? I realize it's a bit of an odd question,
but I'm interested in ideas other than taxing trade (popular) or
just levying on member worlds (one of my favourites).

  Certainly the level of taxation needed to vastly enlarge the
Navy's tanker fleet is going to approach confiscatory levels in
terms more used to the concept than our societies.

...
>>  _If the savings are greater_ _and the risk is demonstrably low_
>>_relative to the investment_. I suspect that most economists or
>>CA's would agree with that; therefore, wouldn't implementation
>>be quite radically drawn out?
>
>I'm sorry, I don't follow.  It seemed you were agreeing with
>me that the savings just need to exceed risk and investment.
>Then you threw in the is point about it being radically 
>drawn out.  I don't see where it came from.

  Correct. But cautious business practice, and _opportunity
costs_ will substantially reduce the priority or enthusiasm
for such a project. This is a known and current phenomenon;
accounting, unlike economics, can often function like an exact
science (with Acts of Dog, aka tax laws, thrown in).

...
>Well, in fact mesons can hit surface targets just as well as
>orbital ones.  Also, don't planetary mesons have more
>range than ship board?  However, in system where planetary
>defenses are limited, they might use the surface to hide....

  I try to avoid discussing meson weapons because their targetting
solutions are unbelievably screwy at long range (i.e., at ranges at
which other Trav weapons can engage, they effectively _can't_ hit
a Traveller type target. Yippee. Correct, Bruce?). Fire control
(/light lag) should be the limiter for both ship spinal and planetary
arms. The warship in question is moving, which gives it an envelope
independent of weapon size where it can't really be hit.

  Besides which, a spinal mount is the last weapon I'd want for
hunting freighters, given a large capital-class raider.

...
>>watch for enemy intelligence ships, or infiltration leading up to
>>an attack, then how can these patrols not serve any anti-piracy
>>function beyond the ~100 diameter limits (which latter would only
>>need a handful of dedicated vessels, and then only when local
>>resources are inadequate to supply the protection level desired)?
>
>Well, I'm not sure they _can_ detect every single intelligence
>ships (many of which will just be merchant ships).  But these
>patrols would be near the boarder and would only have to spot
>and report, rather than intercept and defeat.

  Again, I'm sure they _can't_ detect every single intelligence
ship. It doesn't follow that the attempt won't be made. Enemy
/foreign operations are themselves a good source of intelligence.
Also, if the possibility of a surprise attack from peace-time
deployments is admitted (almost certain given Trav com-lags),
then a trip-wire or picket line must be deployed, probably two
sub-sectors deep. An actual sensor picket flight would likely
be mil-spec type S equivalent, but each system would need one
or more Fleet Couriers, which in CT/S:9 are adequate to cook
the goose of most conceivable pirate ships.

  So yes, these extra (passive) elements would be near the border
only, but that begs the question of what's deployed / extant
further back?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 20:12:23 +0000
From: "Pearson Publishing" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: New Website

I have been on the list for a few months now, and surfed through
the Traveller Webring many a time ... I've decided it's time to
add my Cr .02 worth to the project.

I've recently begun a new Traveller website.  My main goal is as
a repository for adventuring ideas (which there seems to be a
lack of on the sites).  Please stop by and visit, and leave your
favorite scenario/campaign details on the message board.  As it
grows, I will create an archive.  Thanks for visiting.
James Pearson
jdpearson@wr.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 17:05:37 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Protection of Commerce on Treece

Robert Eaglestone wrote:

> Treece 2311 D232866-8    Na Po              610 Im M1 V
>
> ...a sad little world in the Marches.  Using the "Rob & Jon"
> trade method (http://www.metronet.com/~washi/Tas/Starports/),
> It looks like Treece gets approximately
>
>         1000 passengers per week    = 50k passengers per year
>         4000 tons of cargo per week = 200k tons cargo per year
>
> At an average of, say, 5000 Cr per passenger, and 1kCr per ton
> of cargo, the throughput of this trade route is
>
>         weekly: 5000 x 1000   + 4000    x 1000 = MCr 9
>         yearly: 5000 x 50,000 + 200,000 x 1000 = MCr 450
>
>    Half a billion credits per year: about the price of one ship
>    plus crew plus maintenance.

Except that Treece does _not_ have the starport capablity to build a
system defense spacecraft.  So, it will have to import one, either by
lease or outright sale, from a neighboring world.  Once the spacecraft
is insystem, Treece will not be able to maintain it (due to lack of
starport facilities and industrial capacity) - so it will either go
unmaintained and unrepaired (and anyone who has spent time shipboard
knows how much time is spent in maintenance) until/unless the ship is
ferried to a suitable starport or a tender comes to Treece.  Finally,
Treece does not have the technological background to educate and train a
crew to man the spaceship, so they will have to farm out that work as
well.

Then there is the issue of what TL to build the ship to.  If you build
the ship to TL9 standards, there is at least the hope that Treece will
elevate itself to the point of being able to man and maintain the ship
in the near future.  But what good is TL9 to a TL F corsair?  If you
build to TL F, then you are guarantee that you will be dependant on
foriegn mercenaries for your system defense for a long, long time.

Then there is the support for the crew.  Even if you put your locals
through intensive Hi-TL training, how do you keep them happy?  Treece is
a TL 8 world, anyone manning the spacecraft is going to be used to TL9+
equipment and amenities.  Oh joy, shore leave.

Seriously tho', Treece obviously has a limited amount of hard capital to
spend - how do you equip your system defense forces?  Do you put modern
(i.e. up to the TL of the SDB) training equipment at their base so the
off-duty crews can maintain their skills?  How about living quarters,
are they built to the TL of the SDB or the TL of the world?  How do you
pay them - Imperial standard or in comparison to what the average worker
on Treece makes?  At some point, concessions are going to have to be
made, as these SDB crews will become aware of, or come from, much higher
standards of living than are available on Treece.  They will have to be
compensated for that - at which point you start having the citizens of
Treece (who are paying for all this) begin to notice that perhaps they
are not living nearly as well as the people who protect them.  People
tend not to like this...at least in my experience.  After a while, they
tend to get very...vocal, about this.

Finally, who are these mercenary SDB forces loyal too?  In Treece's
case, the government type is 'Captive' - so most likely any SDB force is
going to have a dual purpose.  While this solves a lot of the problems
(who cares what the yokels think, shoot 'em if they protest), the issues
of crewing and maintenance become more pronounced - obviously we are not
going to want to man the garrison forces with potentially disgruntled
locals.  On other worlds, the SDB forces who are loyal to one faction or
another could easily be pulled into intergovernment, international, or
even interplanetary disputes.


- --
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 16:22:01 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Imperial Navy taskings (not piracy?)

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation (shorter)
...
>>  You've repeatedly stated that you don't believe that the Imperium
>>_will_ maintain serious (IMO) internal security.   IIRC, you may have
>>stated during the Navy budget debat that it wasn't possible either.
>>Do you have a definitive opinion or analysis?
>
>The point here is the "IMO".  What you consider "serious" I
>consider unecessary.  I do agree that the Navy will have
>maintain serious internal security, I just don't agree
>with your view of what that is.

  Yes, the "(IMO)" was key, which is why I included it. Is this
an issue (IYTU) of the assets not existing, not being allocated,
or being non-deployed for either specified or mysterious reasons?

...
>>  So is it a given that ships built to address external threats
>>are unusable for internal security missions?
>
>I wouldt go that far.  But I wouldn't say they are free either.
>There are some missions that could be done with small
>decreases in readyness.  However, full time patrols of
>all areas of the Imperium goes well beyond, IMO, this
>point.

  Free/unfree in what sense? Fiscal or deployment commitments?
Remember, sub-sector and colonial/planetary navies of systems
wealthy enough to possess significant assets will also require
escort vessels to meet wartime commitments (including the escort
and scouting functions for the heavy units).

  These units are both the most suitable for internal security
patrols and the least likely to be decommissioned in peacetime.
The planetary elements likely can't leave their home systems,
and the sub-sector units are probably patrolling within (or very
near?) their sub-sector of origin, but that covers those two levels
within proximity of a wealthy (pop 8+?) world.

>>Are there no linkages
>>or correlations between these missions? Are designated internal
>>security vessels unusable for external (or internal wartime) tasks?
>
>Why do people, when I say I don't agree with one extreme,
>demand I defend the other extreme?   :-)

  Those were questions. I would suggest that many of these mission
profiles are functionally indistinguishable, and the vessels and
crews thus extensively interchangeable. In fact, ships ostensibly
dedicated (i.e., budgeted) for either of these two tasks are the
most closely designed (and best trained) for each others performance
envelopes.

...
>There is never "money left over" in large organizations.  If
>one need doesn't get it, there is always something else that
>wants it.  I do agree that the Navy will spend money on internal
>security.  This program will have compete with all the other
>needs that exist.

  In fact, the Navy almost appears to be the only organ of the
Imperium. The feudally based administration has its' own revenues
from fiefs, the Imperial family owns major shares in the largest
economic engines in the 3I; that leaves very little but the Navy
to soak up the Imperial budget, and even a third rate ship of the
line costs as much as a thousand little couriers and x-boats for
the IISS.

  Assuming that the Navy gets its' money, rather than it being 
wasted on subsidies for unwed fathers on Porozlo (say, Marine
recruiting?) then what will it buy and where will it put it?
That would be interesting to explore and compare with previous
analyses and source material.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #529
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 29 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 530



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Information Gathering with Sensors
Re: New Website
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #528
Re: Information Gathering with Sensors
Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)
Re: Imperial Navy taskings (not piracy?)
Re: Information Gathering with Sensors
Re: System Defense Stations
Re: Piracy [long]
Re: New Website
Re: Protection of Commerce on Treece, etc.
Gurps Lite
Treece Defense Force

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 17:34:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Information Gathering with Sensors

Rupert Boleyn writes:
> I was pondering the various sensor rules and discussions we've had, and it
> struck me that I've never seen anything on what you can find out about
> other ships, and how hard this might be. 
> 
> For example I imagine that once you've got a lock with a passive sensor you
> will know the current output of the opponent, and by checking his emission
> spectrum you'd be able to run him through your database to see what you
> already know about him. I also think that you'd get some sort of visual
> picture of him if you're using PEMS. With active sensors you'd get a
> reflection profile that you could also use for getting an ID, etc.

In space, you can detect an object at ranges dramatically longer than you can
actually resolve it -- a 1 meter optical telescope at the theoretical limits of
resolution might be able to tell the configuration type of a thousand-ton ship
at 1 brilliant lances hex.  It isn't entirely clear how good resolution
traveller sensors actually have, grav-focus technology might apply here.  There
is some relationship between ability to resolve an object and the ability to
get a fire-control lock, figure that you can resolve an object at half a range
band closer than you can get a fire control lock (so about 1% of detection
range) -- at this point you will be able to determine the size and hull
configuration of the vehicle.  Another half-band closer and you should be able
to determine the general model of ship, yet another half-band and you can
determine the specific model, and recognize reasonably distinctive individual
ships.  Realistically, IR has dramatically lower resolution than visual light,
assume that you can only do this operation with the reflected signature of the
vessel (subtract a full range band if trying to do HRT resolution).  Lidar/AEMS
can image vehicles using the same procedure as PEMS.

Other things you can detect (some more useful than others):

Drive spectrum.  Depending on some assumptions about how thruster plates work,
this might or might not give you information about the drive -- it might be
that all drives from one shipyard have a specific spectrum, and drives from
other shipyards have slightly different spectra.  This might even be as
distinctive as a fingerprint.  This can be done at detection range, but
requires a separate roll.

Active sensors will tell you exact range (and velocity towards/away from the
scanning vessel), and do so automatically.  Passive sensors can tell you range
if two ships both focus on the same object and are in communication; one ship
can do this if it has a reasonable idea of the target object's acceleration (by
scanning, moving, and scanning again).  This is possible at detection range,
but requires a separate roll.  Observing an object for an extended period will
typically allow making a reasonable guess as to range.

If you know the range, you can determine signature (and thus, indirectly, power
output) and acceleration, which indirectly determines mass; however, I suspect
military ships are capable of some form of spilling of energy from thrusters
which allows them to change their apparent power output to appear larger (at a
minimum, ships with EMM can probably choose not to use it).  If thruster plates
have a distinctive signature, it will be possible to determine velocity by
checking the red/blue shift of the thruster plates.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 02:08:44 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: New Website

Pearson Publishing wrote:

> I've recently begun a new Traveller website.  My main goal is as
> a repository for adventuring ideas (which there seems to be a
> lack of on the sites).  Please stop by and visit, and leave your
> favorite scenario/campaign details on the message board.  As it
Id love to stop by, but...No Adress!
- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 21:07:42 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #528

- -----Original Message-----
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #528


>>From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
>>Subject: Re: 20th Century piracy
>>
>>I will admit OPENLY that I agree with your statements when talking about a
>>STABLE Imperium with STABLE borders.  But at the fringes, even when the 3I
>>was solid, there would be NUMEROUS possibilities for Piracy to occur.
>>Whether this is done by the Varg, Aslan, Solomani or Imperial Warrant it
>>matters not.
>>
>
>Nope. Take the naval budgets of Trin, Rhylanor and Mora - the three big, hi
>tech, industrial worlds of the Spinward Marches. Allocate an
>internal-security budget of Cr 5 per person per year. Some of this is paid
>through the Subsector and Sector Navies, some is paid for via the Bank of
>Regina etc supporting piracy suppression activitiesa (if a Free Trader with
>a mortgage gets taken, the owner-captain loses his life. It is the bank
>that takes the MCr 50 hit on it's bottom line).

>
Go further Spinward.....Get out on the real "Fringes" and quote me some more
figures about how much it will cost to support piracy suppression when the
pirates are leaving the Imperial borders.
>
>>I don't have any intention of FORCING you to change your mind, just stop
>>putting other people down for believing that the possibility exists.  It
>>does exist, it is Traveller Canon and there is modern day piracy here on
>>Earth.
>>
>
>Name me three ships on international shipping that have been taken by armed
>force, and either been stripped of cargo or have been sold off in their
>entirety in a freeport.
>
>Now, look at Traveller sensor and combat ranges vis a vis the 100 diameter
>limit.
>
>Now, look at the cost of a ship that will defeat a civilian.
>
>Now, look at jump lag and the time freighters spend in port, and give me
>three reasons why your bank will not, as a requirement of your starship
>mortgage, require you to notify your next port of call via the first
>available ship going there.
>
>Ian Whitchurch
>

The above was NOT the point that was being made. I don't necessarily
disagree with your scenario and in fact tend to agree with it.

What I took exception to was the "Sigh. You're not listening" passages
indicating 1) I'm too stupid to understand; 2) Too lazy to do the research
to prove my point; or 3) Someone approaching me with a paternal attitude
like they're dealing with a small child.  Get a grip, I'm 46 years old,
served in the Army for 20 years on four continents in three "conflicts", got
an IQ over a fricking egg plant and an attitude of kiss my @$$ whenever
ANYONE patronizes me.

What's the problem of having pirates in certain circumstances under certain
conditions.  Why is it any one here's job to have to justify anything in our
game to you or Hans.  The attitude that pervades the posts is what got to
me, I wasn't even going to post on the subject because it's so inflammatory.

Going back to the original posts (correct me if I'm wrong), but I seem to
remember this started out that you (generic) wouldn't attack any ship who's
capitol value was less than yours.  In other words why are you risking a
400MCr Corsair against a 50 MCr (max value ship and cargo) merchant ship.
That was a fair question and I was pondering it and postulating a response
when the post hit "Show any pirate activities in recent history and I'll
retract" or something along those lines.  Several people responded with
insubstantial events even by my standards.  I then went out and did some
searching thru the web and came up with a number of documented acts of
piracy that met the criteria all on one web page.  I posted that web address
and right after that someone else posted another three or four web pages.
What kind of confirmation do YOU need when someone proves their point?  I
don't have a problem with piracy being all but non-existent (key words are
"all but"), that ain't the problem.  I just don't like other people's
beliefs and ATTITUDES shoved up my rearward dark spot without my permission.

Thom

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 21:12:13 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Information Gathering with Sensors

- -----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Information Gathering with Sensors


>Rupert Boleyn writes:
>> I was pondering the various sensor rules and discussions we've had, and
it
>> struck me that I've never seen anything on what you can find out about
>> other ships, and how hard this might be.
>Other things you can detect (some more useful than others):
>
>Drive spectrum.  Depending on some assumptions about how thruster plates
work,
>this might or might not give you information about the drive -- it might be
>that all drives from one shipyard have a specific spectrum, and drives from
>other shipyards have slightly different spectra.  This might even be as
>distinctive as a fingerprint.  This can be done at detection range, but
>requires a separate roll.
>

With the proper PASSIVE sensors you could theoretically "finger print"
drives to ship.

Thom

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 17:17:27 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)
...
>The problem isn't he math (even when it is more complex than
>that :-). 

  Speak for yourself. I'm hoping to evolve into using fingers eventually,
and then I figure I'll be able to get up to eight or nine at least!

>We could argue about how regulated the US is today.  I feel
>that it isn't as unregulated as many societies historically
>(even relative to the degree it could be), or even
>as it has been in the past.  I also see the Imperium as
>being much less regulated than that US.  (Because of
>slow communictations, large size, decentralized government,
>feudal structure, etc)

  I agree with the latter, but I have to conclude that the former
opinion is inaccurate given the weight of evidence, particularly
for early modern (/proto-bureaucratic) states. It might be an
interesting experiment to do a model of the Imperium based on
one of these "less relatively regulated" states, carrying over
the policy intentions from the historical record.

  None of the conditions listed are any sort of bar to regulation;
rather, they are restrictions on the amount of control exercised
by or possible to the Imperial capital.

>>Less-regulated societies in the modern era simply lack the resources
>>(in almost all cases) to govern effectively, be it Somalia or Peru.
>
>This I don't agree with.  I also feel that even if it was true
>that would only speak to general modern regulation which would
>still contrast with many other historical societies.

  OK. If you feel inclined to investigate further I can recommend
Clapham, Third World Politics (1985) as a primer. For historical 
material anything by Bosher on fiscal reform and administration
in France, Burkholder/Johnsom, Colonial Latin America (1998; an
excellent source for control of subordinate units in an empire,
and for administrative objectives and mechanisms.

>>  As for laissez-faire, the 18th C. UK, supposed champion of said
>>doctrine, never took much of a hands-off approach to matters of either
>>internal or external security; certainly their internal order issues
>>were either exceedingly well-handled or simply fortunately limited.
>
>Well, I am playing loose with the term "laissez-faire".  It
>is technically an economic term which I am misapplying.  Nor
>do I think that anything I said says that the Imperium is
>ignoring it's internal or extrnal security.  Piracy at the
>level of minor irritant is not a threat to security.

  Oh. I thought you were using the technical economic term in a
context I might be familiar with; AFAIK, 3I economic policy is
often described in those terms, canonically (i.e., it's most
clearly not a centralised or command economy, although that might
be subject to change under a Jump-station transport regime).

  Clearly the IN exists at established levels to deal with external
threats; it remains to explore dedicated internal forces and any
cross-over between the two asset pools.

...
>>  Why would the answer have any validity to the authorities?
>>Is there a verification method? Remember, transponders are
>>potentially security aids as well as navigational devices,
>>and by dropping one you are perhaps coincidentally heaving
>>the other.
>
>Unless you have some system of cross checking codes (which would
>be hard with communications as hard as they are, as another poster
>did a good job of elucidating), they aren't much more reliable
>than the explinations of the ships captain.  If he can lie he
>can alter the transponder.

  Here's a potential problem with the "piracy at minor irritant levels"
thesis; under this regime any group of PC's/seedy characters/Vargr
could quite likely go into business for themselves quite successfully,
seamlessly switching back and forth between smuggling, piracy, slavery,
hijacking, organ-legging, and kidnapping with little chance of being caught
in the short run. When deliberately designing a background in which piracy
is _possible_ it's important to consider that you get an acceptable
likely equilibrium level of activity (given risk, reward, and ease of
market entry).

  I suppose there's no practical way of figuring out what ship is
supposed to be what? If no electronic device is reasonably tamper
resistant, then banks clear account info very slowly, and electronic
account carrying becomes impossible.

...
>>  So if a local government approves of piracy (for example) then
>>at what point does the Imperium, per its' mandate, attempt to
>>eliminate that actor? How does it do so?
>
>You missed what I said.  The local government is in charge of
>customs and such, not with security for transiting ships.

  I'm not sure what you said. The Imperium is responsible for
transiting ships? Does it do anything about it? What does it do
if a member world is actively supporting piracy? IYTU, anyway.

...
>>given the number of TL 6+ worlds (let alone Seekers with the needed
>>kit). I suppose all related equipment would need to be controlled
>>too. Also the permeability of the border needs to be considered.
>
>Well, the number of companies that make the stuff would be,
>in my mind, more limited than the number of ships travelling
>in the imperium....

  This has been covered by others; it seems vastly unlikely to
be the case. Also, doesn't that simply create an enormous import
market for illegal nukes? How is nuke licensing handled, or is
civilian possession banned?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 18:21:27 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Navy taskings (not piracy?)

Thu, 28 May 1998 16:22:01 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven
Hudson)
> >There is never "money left over" in large organizations.  If
> >one need doesn't get it, there is always something else that
> >wants it.  I do agree that the Navy will spend money on internal
> >security.  This program will have compete with all the other
> >needs that exist.

>   In fact, the Navy almost appears to be the only organ of the
> Imperium.

It is from a gamers point of view.  The money flowing through
the nobilty will be a big budget.  So will the Scout service
(including the Xboats).  You also have the Imperial Research
stations.  The cost of all those starports.  The Imperial
court system.  What ever passes for the FBI and CIA (the
political aspects, the military would be in the military).
There is also the Army (they not be as big, but if you 
are holding planets by preventing the landing of troops
they are significant.  What else is there?  Does the
Emperor get a cut?  (Just how damn rich is he?)
(I can't have come up with all them off the top of my head).
And then there are all those little things that you never
think of (weights and measures, diplomatic corp, etc.)
They may not be as big, but they certainly wouldn't mind more
money.  On top of that, there is the pressure to lower
taxes from economic interests.  There won't be any 
money "left over".  It doesn't happen.

In any case, the navy has it's own competing needs that
will make sure that no money is "left over".  There 
are the different forces to stop the Solomani, Zhodani,
etc.  There is internal piracy, smuggling piracy
patrols, there is stopping external raiding by the Vargr,
there is the cost of bases, the naval administration,
etc.  There is also the competition between spending money
on salaries and equipment.

> The feudally based administration has its' own revenues
> from fiefs

Yeah, it might come of the top rather than the bottom line,
it is still competing for money that might go to the
Imperium.

>, the Imperial family owns major shares in the largest
> economic engines in the 3I;

I think that sticks with the Imperial Family (rather than
going into the Imperium).  

> Then what will it buy and where will it put it?
> That would be interesting to explore and compare with previous
> analyses and source material.

Well, I would guess (I don't think I can come up with a list
that doesn't forget something and any analysis is only
going to be "one possibility") most of it goes to fleets.
Then, in descreasing order, bases (this is where programs
for enlisted men get put), administration, military
intellegence, military R&D.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 98 19:34:36 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Information Gathering with Sensors

On 05/29/98 at 11:26 AM,  Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz> said:

>I was pondering the various sensor rules and discussions we've had, and it
>struck me that I've never seen anything on what you can find out about
>other ships, and how hard this might be. 

>For example I imagine that once you've got a lock with a passive sensor
>you will know the current output of the opponent, and by checking his
>emission spectrum you'd be able to run him through your database to see
>what you already know about him. I also think that you'd get some sort of
>visual picture of him if you're using PEMS. With active sensors you'd get
>a reflection profile that you could also use for getting an ID, etc.

>The thing is I've no idea what else you could tell, or how hard and/or
>time consuming this would be.

One of the nice things in _GURPS Vehicles_ is a discussion of three levels
of information from a sensor contact.  Detection means that "something is
out there" and your get a bearing, sometimes a range and speed, depending
on the type of sensor.  Recognition gives more information, generally the
category the object fits in, "400dt ship at 9 o'clock, 807 kilo-klicks." 
Identification provides an even higher level of information, allowing you
to specify the vehicle and give details about it.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 17:44:14 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: System Defense Stations

>From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
>Subject: System Defense Stations
>
>Does it make sense to have system defense stations --
>space platforms which have a very very low (0.1G or less) 
>acceleration, are heavily armored, and are just bristling 
>with weapons?  How about fuel/maintenance stations?

  Someone already did a very cute police commsat; any ship
that doesn't evade (e.g., matches courses with a ballistic
object) finds out just what the hit rate is for big lasers
at "maximum" <giggle> range.

  Augment with rocket boosters for evasion and it will handle
very small warships and pretty much any civvie.

  A station is (realistically; combat system may disagree) a
really bad idea if an eventual mission is fighting off a 
capital ship (aka "suicide").

  But even a small station can fit your profile (HG) by using
an asteroid (dirt-cheap, pun intended) hull and some sort of
power supply that won't cost an arm-and-a-leg; reverse "shore
pwer" hookup anyone?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 17:33:34 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Piracy [long]

Hans Expounded thusly:
>William F. Hostman writes:
>
>>One issue seemingly overlooked is the 3i's stance on inter-member warfare:
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>Essentially, at least in the late 3rd Imperium, inter member warfare is
>>seen as a safety valve, p[rovided it doesn't get out of hand. So are
>>limited trade-wars. Most "Pirates" are actually going to be privateers,
>>going from brushfire war to brushfire war, armed with letters of Marque,
>>and "Enforcing" blockades...
>
>Are you talking about real privateers (privately owned warships whose only
>expense to the government issueing the letter of marque is a bit of paper)
>or starmercs (private ships hired for the duration with full logistic
>support (including repairs) supplied by the government that hires them)?
>Because if you mean the latter, we've been over that before. It has long
>been admitted by us anti-piracy people that if somebody pays your expenses
>and losses then private commerce raiding is feasible. What I still don't
>believe is that privateering is a winning proposition except in very
>exceptional circumstances.
>
>Oh, and don't forget that we're talking about piracy _as portrayed in the
>Traveller sources_.

Actually, Hans, I see starmerc vs pirate vs corsair as a sepctrum, based
upon the published sources. In Hard Times, it references that starmerc
without work sometimes turn pirate, and the difference between a corsair
and a pirate is one of paperwork. As with ground mercs (see Bk 4:
Mercenary), not all tickets will include full support.

A "Commerce Raider" of any flavor is a light warship with cargo capability,
as I understand the term. Whether the operator is a pirate, starmerc,
merchant, or corsair depends on what he's doing. Starmercs sell their
combat capability, cosairs and pirates use their combat capability to take
value from other merchant craft, and armed merchantmen (like many vargr
"Corsairs") turn to combat when they can't make enough to get by by
legitimate means. The legitamate means for commerce raiding are when world
or corporation A declares war on war or corp. B... since the rules of
warfare [MT Imp Encyc. p28] allow for armed conflict between members with
the rationale "a short war is deemed preferable to continuing tension,
sabotage, and political agitation." [ibid.]

Where there is warfare, there are privateers or pirates. Where there is the
potential to gain valuables without the time or expese of gaining them
through more legitamate trade, there will be those who snatch and grab.

Based upon the Traveller Adventure, piracy is not overly common, but is a
common enough threat where trade wars or local conflicts exist.

During the rebellion, the nature of piracy changes, but not the existance.

Also, the fact that the career exists indicates that it at least has a
large enough basis of operations to support some significant portion of the
population (ie, enough that is is worthy of being one of the 18 careers
under MT).

As to methods: Does every ship exit at 100 diameters? not IMTU. Does every
ship operate a transponder? IMTU, the transponder, at least the SDG chip
ones, screams bloody murder when turned back on.  So, until the late
10-hundreds, with the introduction of the SDG chip transponders, it's not a
bid deal. Two pirates operating together, can tweak the salvage rules. One
cripples the target, and the other "chases him off", claims the cargo, or
even the ship as slavage in exchange for providing aid, and splits the take
with the other ship(s) in the group. All it takes is being able to get
there and force them to give you value before the anti-piracy forces can
drive you off. IMTU, most piracy occurs on the way OUT from a world... and
almost all of the rest is sposored interdicts.

Just like the 3d6 for 18+ roll for hijacking, piracy is implied in the
rules. Therefore, it must exist, even if it is not directly akin to "Modern
Piracy". I figure most piracy is supported by normal merchant operations
with the occasional raid and occasional "merc op". Full time piracy is only
going to be a rare occasion. But when a pirate can show he's a "Legitimate
Merchant", he's going to be able to cover up his ops.

Now a question for the list:
From cannon sources, I have only found support for a handful of imperial
crimes: Murder, Treason, Hijacking, violation of the Rules of Warfare. Is
there a cannon referency to Piracy (as opposed to hijacking) being an
imperial crime? IMTU, Piracy is a crime if a letter of marque is not issued.

Adventure Idea: Ship picks up a passenger, leaves planet. On way out,
corsair pulls along, and asks if any citizens from planet X are aboard
(whete x is a planet in another sector). Said passenger just happens to be
"Inactive Reservist" (IE, out but still elligible for recall and still
officially a member) of Planet X's military. Pirate requests said
individual be turned over in accordance with his Letter of marque, from
planet Y (near planet X). The locals, in accordance with the rules of War,
refuse to intervene in a non-local matter (ie, they recognize the LoM, and
that the passenger may be intercepted a he's technically still a member of
the military).

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 21:00:01 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: New Website

U
R
L


Pearson Publishing wrote:

> I have been on the list for a few months now, and surfed through
> the Traveller Webring many a time ... I've decided it's time to
> add my Cr .02 worth to the project.
>
> I've recently begun a new Traveller website.  My main goal is as
> a repository for adventuring ideas (which there seems to be a
> lack of on the sites).  Please stop by and visit, and leave your
> favorite scenario/campaign details on the message board.  As it
> grows, I will create an archive.  Thanks for visiting.
> James Pearson
> jdpearson@wr.net



- --
My god, it's full of stars!


Http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/4467

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 18:40:51 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Protection of Commerce on Treece, etc.

>From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
>Subject: Protection of Commerce on Treece, Jae Tellona, Vland
...
>III. Example Two - Jae Tellona
>
>Now for a sanity check.
>Let's pick a high-volume port.
>
>Jae Tellona Trade Volume
>
>Jae Tellona   2814 A560565-8  N Ni De              913 Im F9 IV
...
>Passengers per week: 310,000
>Freight per week   : 1,240,000 t
>Revenue per week   : BCr 2.8
>
>Jae Tellona System Defense
>
>Jae Tellona probably buys a quality fleet for its money.  A billion
>credits is nothing to sneeze at.  It would probably be making payments
>on 100 system defense boats, plus a few hundred fighters.  It will
>also be putting cash into establishing and maintaining depots and
>bases of operations throughout the system, especially the gas giants.

  With a population of a million that makes the entire society or
economy based on the port connection. Is that appropriate?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 01:41:33 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Gurps Lite

With GURPS Traveller on the way I thought that some of you might be
interested in the free GURPS Lite, SJG is no longer planning to include
Lite in GURPS Traveller.

"STEVE JACKSON GAMES announces the release of GURPS LITE, a 32-page
distillation of the basic GURPS rules. It covers character creation,
combat, success rolls and the essentials of adventuring and game
mastering. GURPS LITE is designed as a tool to help GMs introduce new
players to the game by providing a quick and easy entry to the GURPS
system. Steve Jackson Games will distribute GURPS LITE free of charge,
both in digital format over the Web and (later on) as a printed booklet
which will be available at retail stores, through distributors, and
directly from Steve Jackson Games. It will also be included in some
GURPS books, such as the upcoming GURPS DISCWORLD."
The PDF version is available now at http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 21:14:48
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Treece Defense Force

>From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
>Subject: Protection of Commerce on Treece
>
>Treece 2311 D232866-8    Na Po              610 Im M1 V 
>
>...a sad little world in the Marches.  Using the "Rob & Jon"
>trade method (http://www.metronet.com/~washi/Tas/Starports/),
>It looks like Treece gets approximately
>
>	1000 passengers per week    = 50k passengers per year
>	4000 tons of cargo per week = 200k tons cargo per year
>
>At an average of, say, 5000 Cr per passenger, and 1kCr per ton
>of cargo, the throughput of this trade route is
>
>	weekly: 5000 x 1000   + 4000    x 1000 = MCr 9
>	yearly: 5000 x 50,000 + 200,000 x 1000 = MCr 450
>
>   Half a billion credits per year: about the price of one ship
>   plus crew plus maintenance.
>
>Perhaps Treece, then, has MCr 450 in permanent system defense.
>In addition, a patrol ship wanders by once in awhile:
>

Assume, given the D starport and TL8 you hire starmercs who go elsewhere
for maintainence at an obscene cost of 25% of unit sticker price per annum.
Treece is owned by Inthe (2410), which is TL9 and a B starport ... we will
assume this means it's limited to maintaining TL9 spacecraft itself.

Now, we use the TL12 Svennson Small Craft Katts class Light Fighter, which
costs MCr 22.5 each in rough numbers. We buy fifteen, probably based on
Treece itself, plus two modified Tracey class freighters to play Den Mommy
and shuttle them to and from Macene (2612) for maintainence (a 13dt fighter
needs a 52dtons for a spacious hangar, plus 14 dtons for a docking ring,
plus 15 dtons for an electronics and a mechanical shop), and it looks to be
about a months trip to Macene. Macene is TL E and has a B starport, so they
will have no problem doing work there that the Tracey class cant manage
themselves. If I was in a argumentative mood I'd also argue that the Katts
class fighters should be cheaper as they are built (possibly on Regina)
with TL12 technology in a TL15 Imperium.

I'd say that an escort of two Katts class fighters sounds about right for
escorting outgoing convoys, and if planned precipitation points are
allowed, we make sure that one fighter is on patrol near it at all times.
That puts ten on the ground, three on patrol and two going back and forth
to Macene for maintainence.

This all costs about MCr 100 a year, or 22% of trade revenue per annum.
This is a bit on the high side to pay for purely by trade revenue (I'd
expect about 3% of trade revenue to be reasonable). Now, Treece has a
population of 800 million people, so I think we need a direct tax subsidy
of ummm 0.1 credits per person per year to support our flotilla. 

If we want to pay in kind, we need to sell call it 100 200 kiloton short
range det lasers, or 100 10 megawatt fission plants, suitable for use in
TL8-9 Belter colonies such as Shionthy(2306), Patinir(3207) or Gitosy
(2918). Not that much for a 800 million population world.

Now 4000 tons of cargo a week is about 40 Free Traders, or 8 traders with
500 dton cargo capacities. In either case, I would personally advise
traders that when the Daily Fighter Sweep is happening, and escort them out
that way.

>FM12DL, Katts class Medium Fighter (FF&S v2)
> >Designed by Greg Svenson, Svenson Small Craft LIC
> >				
> >Statistics
> >Tons: 13std ( SL Dome Hypersonic )	Crew: 1/2
> >Cargo: 0std (0/0)			Volume: 182m3
> >Passengers High/Med: 0/0		Cost: 22.459MCr
> >Mass (L/C): 246t/244t			Passengers Low: 0
> >Maintenance Points: 43			Dimensions: 4.3m x 8.5m
> x 8.5m
> >Troops/Science: 0/0			Tech Level: 12
> >Size: 7					Frozen Watch: 0(0 group)
> >
> >Electronics
> >Controls: Dynamic, High automation. 2xFltComp (CM:0.45 CP:2.22).
> >1xFibComp 
> >          (CM:0.6 CP:1.67). Terrain following sensors (TF:480,
> NOE:160).
> >          No bridge.
> >Communications: 1xLaser (500,000km, 0.00MW).
> >Sensors: 1xLIDAR (14 [200kkm], 0.20MW).
> >Survey/Science:
> >ECM:
> >Signatures: Vis:-1.5, IR:-1.0 (-1.0 at 30MW, -1 at 4MW), Act:-0.5,
> >         Neu:-2, Grav:0
> >
> >Weaponry
> >1x250Mj Fixed Laser (+0) 1/1-0-0-0 [1,20/40-20-10-5] (LR)
> >
> >Performance
> >		0	Jump
> >		5/5	Maneuver (/Thruster:30MW)
> >		0.0/0.0	Contra-grav
> >4,691kph/4,703kph	Atmosphere (/Crus:3,518kph/3,527kph)
> >		7	Power (/Fus+:44.33MW,168.0)
> >		0.0	Fuel
> >	0/0/0/0/0	Accommodations
> >		4	Life Sup. (/Ty:St,Gd /'st)
> >		3	G-Comp (/G Tanks:0,2)
> >		0	ESA
> >		0	sandcasters
> >		0	Damper Turrets
> >		0	Damper Screen 
> >		0	Meson Screen 
> >		0	Force Field
> >		0	Gravtics
> >		0 [20]	Armor
> >		3	Structure
> >
> >Features
> >1xAirlock
> >1xShip's locker(0.01std ea.)
> >
> >Backups
> >Communications: 1xLaser (500,000km).
> >Sensors: 1xPEMS (12.5 [1.6mkm]).
> >
> >Crew Details
> >1xMnvr.
> >
> >The pilot and gunner have to sleep in their G-tanks. I kept the
> >fresher and microwave.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #530
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 29 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 531



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Piracy
Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)
Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)
Re: Extra-solar Planet Image
Re: Subs and Sensors
Re: 20th Century piracy
Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)
Re: Discussion about GURPS:Traveller
Re: Sword World names
Re: 20th Century piracy
Re: System Defense Stations
Re: nuclear material
Website Questions
Co-ordinated jumps
Re: Turnlengths & physics (was Re: Coordinated Jumps)
Re: Subs and Sensors
Piracy now and in the Traveller universe
Re: Subs and Sensors
Re: Turnlengths & physics (was Re: Coordinated Jumps)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 01:27:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Piracy

In mail you write:

> The pirates that are operating these days in the South China Sea, the Horn
> of Africa, Straits of Malacca etc are what I would call 'seaborne mugging'.
> Their target seems not to be the cargo or the ship, but the cash, valuables
> and sometimes crew (kidnap for ransom or rape appears to have happened).
>
> Now, if Traveller merchant captains tend to carry large amounts of cash, it
> might be viable to use the Traveller equivalent of a speedboat (a small 4G
> launch) to match vectors with an unarmed merchant and board. The problem is
> that at TL12, your minimum cost is about MCr 2.5 for the t-plates - at TL13
> you can use a 1m3 fusion plant and Heplar, so you might be able to shave
> that some. It's only at TL14 and up that really cheap spaceships become
> viable.
>
> Now, how interested in such a system of spaceborne muggings would the Navy
> etc be, as long as trade isnt effected ... I'm not sure. But I do know how
> tempting it would be to steal the ship once you got aboard, and hope that
> you could make it to a freeport.

For that matter, *historically* most pirates were the result of mutiny.
The Traveller equivalent of some of them would be a poorly paid crew
with an "owner aboard" hijacking the ship when it had a valuable cargo.

And for that matter, there's a story by (I think) Gordon R. Dickson
called "Hi-lifter" which describes the hijacking of a starship (done in
spite of a fair amount of paranoia!) It should be mandatory reading for
Traveller players and refs.

I especially like the way he gets the people holding him to supply him
with the means of escape!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 01:35:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)

In mail you write:

> Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz> Wrote;
>>At 10:49 AM 27/05/98 -0400, Peter H. Brenton wrote:
> [big snip]
>>>Anyway, 50,000km 'bands' works out to about 50 minute combat turns, if the
>>>vector based movement system is used.  I would encourage using this system,
>>>but that might fit better with either 16,000km range bands or 65,000 km
>>>range bands (and corresponding length combat turns) rather than 50,000km
>>>range bands.
>>
>>IIRC in the designer's notes for Brilliant Lances it was explained that
>>they used 30,000 hexes because they matched 30 minutes of movement after
>>spending 1 G-turn of acceleration. This means it matches when you consider
>>movement at the volocity you get after accelerating, not the distance you
>>get while accelerating, which is half as much.
>
> There seems to me to be a gap in logic here, perhaps Rupert or someone can
> relieve these questions from my physics challenged mind (I was a Psych
> major fer chrissakes);
>
> Doesn't thirty minutes need to elapse while under constant 1G acceleration
> to reach the velocity where 30k is covered in 30 minutes?
>
> Isn't distance covered while accellerating?
>
> So shouldn't the movement rate reflect this?

It's like this. It's simpler to assume that you move the full distance
the first turn rather than the half distance. otherwise it gets messy
playing.

Consider, you'd have to recall that if you did a 1 g burn you did 1 hex
that turn, but *two* hexes every turn after that. And so on for other
burns. And for multi-turn burns it gets kinda ugly. 

The difference has a big negative effect on playability, for only a
marginal increase in realism.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 01:47:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)

In mail you write:

> Current thinking about quantum black holes is that there cannot be any as
> they will evaporate more or less instantly through Hawking radiation.

Not quite. There's no upper limit on the size of quantum black holes
formed during the Big Bang. So if they were big enough then, they'd be
getting down to useful sizes now. And going out in a blaze of glory if
we didn't feed them soon. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 02:06:38 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Extra-solar Planet Image

In mail you write:

> Just an FYI. BTW, if my science posts are annoying, please
> let me know and I'll stop.

Hey, I don't mind. :-)

> ObTrav:  There's been a discussion on whether or ship crews 
> can detect gas giants in an unexplored system. My take is
> "yes" *if* they know what to look for (i.e. someone has the
> Survey skill at least CT skill level 2 minimum.
>
> What types of sensors would be necessary for this, though?

The Hubble is a bit large for a ship's telescope. But not by as much as
you might think. I think a one meter scope is quite plausible.
Especially since zero-g manufacturing would help reduce the cost of the
mirrors (heck, with decent zero-g facilities you could cast mirrors out
of something like Invar alloy and "spin-figure" them to a good
approximation of the right curvature).

Get well away from the planet you are leaving, and you ought to be able
to detect gas giants *easily* at ranges of a mere 6 parsecs (you don't
care about anything farther away, as you can't jump that far).

The hard part is caluculating the distance to the star, and the
planet's orbit. Assuming this is an exploration mission, then you "waste"
some fuel by jumping to "known" positions in the system you are leaving
and observing from there (to give you a longer baseline). And you'd
want observations spaced over at least a couple of months, unless
you've got the fuel to go clear across the target system if you goofed
on the position of the gas giant.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 01:50:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Subs and Sensors

In mail you write:

> I have a general (and possibly dumb) question, would tactically placing 
> you ship between the local star and the opponent you wish to hide 
> from/sneak up on give you any advantage?

Sure. It's a tried and true tactic. Just remember that you *aren't*
between the star and his buddies a few hundred thousand km off to the
side. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 01:55:50 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: 20th Century piracy

In mail you write:

> There was story in the Boston Globe a couple of years ago of a fishing boat
> from Gloucester (I think) crossing the line into Canadian territory (100
> miles offshore) when a canadian submarine surfaced off it's bow and
> arrested the whole lot, took the ship into port and impounded it.
>
> Of course, if those Canucks have nothing better to do with their subs than
> enforce fishing treaties, I'd say we live in pretty peaceful times.

It sort of counts as practice in tracking surface vessels. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 01:40:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Coordinated Jumps (was Escort Tonnage)

In mail you write:

> So, is Cherenkov/Cernkov radiation dangerous, or is it just "pretty blue
> lights?"

The "erenkov" is definite. The C/Ch depends on how you choose to
convert the Cyrillic letter to the Latin alphabet. Sort of like
Tsar/Czar. :-)

I can't really say. I don't have references handy that tell me how you
determine the *wavelength* of the radiation, and if it depends on the
velocity. If it does depend on the velocity (ie in the same medium,
faster particles emit shorter wavelength radiation) then it could get
dangerous given fast enough particles. As it is, I think it's just this
weird blue glow. 

Speaking of blue glows, don't confused the (possible) "blue glow" due
to Cerenkov radiation in, say, air with the "blue glow" due to an
intense source of ionizing radiation ionizing the air. 

Though I suspect that if you are close enough to see *either* you'll be
dead shortly. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 13:13:50 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Discussion about GURPS:Traveller

On Wed, 20 May 1998, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> Lars Adler writes:
> 
> >Another wondered why a newspaper lied there
> 
> All newspapers lie no matter where they are.

:-) 
That reminds me of the two russian newspapers before glasnost:
The 'Pravda' (russ. f. 'truth') and the 'Istvestia' (russ. f. 'news').

And they said, in the 'Pravda' never was an 'Istvestia'
and the 'Istvestia' never told the 'Pravda' ...

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 13:28:59 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Sword World names

On Tue, 26 May 1998, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> *Narsil         The sword of Elendil, broken in his fight with Sauron.

   Nothung        The sword of Siegfried (Nibelungen).
 
> *Orcrist        The sword of Thorin Oakenshield.

An addition.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 01:56:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: 20th Century piracy

In mail you write:

> skribe <skribe@amber.com.au> writes:
>
>>On 27-May-98 Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>>>So when was the last time you heard of an armed ship chasing down a
>>>merchant ship and capturing it?
>> 
>>It depends on what you call a merchant vessel. Illegal fishing fleets are
>>detained all the time by armed vessels.
>
> Sigh. Yet again I see that I've been too vague. I apologize. While I'm
> perfectly willing to accept fishing ships as examples of merchant vessels,
> I meant "privately owned gunboat" rather than "national warship" when I
> wrote "armed ship". So Australian navy gunboats catching illegal fishermen
> don't count for my purpose. The Somali pirates someone else mentioned
> seems a lot more likely to qualify. If those Somali pirates actually used
> real gunboats, then I will have to back down on that part of my claim.

The trick *now* is *getting* "real gunboats". Even a PT boat requires
armament that's not easily obtained. And the ones sold surplus either
have the weapons removed or rendered inoperable.

And one of the reasons for this is to make it harder to play pirate.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 02:16:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: System Defense Stations

In mail you write:

> Does it make sense to have system defense stations --
> space platforms which have a very very low (0.1G or less) 
> acceleration, are heavily armored, and are just bristling 
> with weapons?  How about fuel/maintenance stations?
>
> If so, what would this beast look like on a QSDS worksheet
> or FF&S2 worksheet?  Any takers?  What would be a good
> range of displacements and costs?

I can't run the spreadsheets, so I can't say.

But one thing that I'd like to see the plausibility of is the
"planetoid monitor". You basicly take a nickel-iron asteroid several km
in diameter, take a *long* time to move it into position, and build a
defense station into it. 

As long as the locations/layout of the interior facilities are secret,
it's a tough nut to crack. Are your meson guns hitting something vital?
Or just heating up more iron?

It might be possible to play games with a *huge* iceball. Cover the
outside with something to help prevent sublimation of the surface, and
your installations can *melt* their way into it. And use thrusters plus
heating coils to keep changing position. Make one hell of a fuel depot
too. 

The extreme example of this later idea would be mobile deep meson sites
in the oceans of Europa (or is it ganymede? I forget). 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 02:24:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: nuclear material

In mail you write:

> "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote in part
>> Well, the number of companies that make the stuff would be,
>> in my mind, more limited than the number of ships travelling
>> in the imperium....
>
> I'd disagree with that assumption.
>
> I believe that in the RW the principal mathod to prevent 
> people making nuclear weapons in their high school physics 
> lab is by preventing access to the raw materials, principly 
> the refined uranium or plutonium. Once we have access to 
> the ores of the average system (just go somewhere with an 
> asteroid belt) then getting the raw materials isn't hard. 
> I've not sufficient tech knowledge to tell how difficult it 
> is to refine into useable material, but if it's mostly a 
> matter of energy requirements the average Seeker has enough 
> spare power to run a small city. 
>
> With a decent Computer operated system, and a good 
> chemistry lab, I can't think of a good reason to stop 
> someone from a tech 10+ society from building their 
> own Nuke from raw materials. Perhaps not as neat and 
> precise as a professionally built one, but sufficient to be 
> worrying.

A calutron type seperator could easily be built outside the ship and
likely with spare parts from the fusion reactor! Heck, given the power
available, if *I* was doing it, I wouldn't bother with "chemistry". I'd
just vaporize the ore, ionize the vapor, and "sort" by mass. 

Gravitics ought to be able to throw in some nice tricks too. And it's
already an open secret that you can use the right frequencies of laser
light to selectively excite different isotopes. Given a tunable,
weapons grade laser, I expect that approach could be quite promising
as well.

So obtaining fissionables is fairly simple. The hard part is getting
the required precision in the timing of the shaped charges if you go
for an implosion device. If you go for a simple "gun" type weapon, then
the ship's machine shop is quite adequate. You'll waste a lot of
fissionables, but it will go boom.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 07:39:32 -0400
From: Andy Slack <AndySlack@compuserve.com>
Subject: Website Questions

Hello each - a few belated questions:

1. Is the Traveller Webring still in existence?
2. If it is, how do I join, please?
3. Do I need to do anything to keep my website
   within the bounds of propriety other than
   put up a disclaimer saying Traveller is (c)
   FFE and attribute copyright on individual
   pages correctly?
4. Should I tell anyone about the website
   and seek their approval (apart from those
   like Marc who frequent this list - I'm
   assuming if they disapproved I'd have
   heard by now).

Thanks -
Andy

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 07:58:03 -0400
From: Andy Slack <AndySlack@compuserve.com>
Subject: Co-ordinated jumps

Message text written by INTERNET:traveller@mpgn.com
>Someone, anyone - what Niven story was that? It would make a pretty
decent adventure and could easily be fit into a "canon" universe.

Ethan<

IIRC that would be "The Borderland of Sol", one of the Beowulf
Schaeffer sequence.

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 14:06:11 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Turnlengths & physics (was Re: Coordinated Jumps)

>For accurate vector movement with the standard turns and hexes, assume that
>G-turn of acceleration adds 1 hex/turn to your vector, and that for your
>position at the end of the turn only add _half_ the velocity from acceleration
>to distance.  As this is likely to generate half-hexes of position, you might
>want to halve the size of hexes (and thus generate a vector of 2/turn).

Make a ship accelerate for 10 turns in a straight line with your system and
see if it comes out right. A multigameturn system is an numerical
simulation that samples speed and position at each turn. If you use
integrated distances as basis for your samples you'll get errors which will
grow as the number of turns increase  while my system will get closer and
closer to reality as the number of turns increase.

Actually try both versions within a computer program to see the
differances. (check out http://www.teazle.com and the SpaceShuttle minigame
for my version of a thrusting ship in a gravity field)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 14:12:49 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Subs and Sensors

>I have a general (and possibly dumb) question, would tactically placing
>you ship between the local star and the opponent you wish to hide
>from/sneak up on give you any advantage?
>
>PZ

It would but stars are pretty small on the sky sphere so it would be pretty
hard to simulate on the mapboard. In my system I use an entire sector to be
starward and reduce the Optics, radar and neutrino sensors a lot if the
scan in that direction unless they're in planetary shadow. This is
unrealistic (too big an arc) but adds a playable element of "terrain" in
spacecombat. Star direction, planetary shadows, LOS versus planets make
space combat with 2 combatants (the normal case for roleplaying fights IMO)
more interesting. Neutrino scanners can see through planets (unless they're
HEAVILY industrialized TL 10+) but suffer the star arc even if in planetary
shadow.

Everything got worse of course when I had to start using 10 000 km squares
but at least I can do interesting things with gasgiants.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 15:15:22 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Piracy now and in the Traveller universe

Thom Harris writes:

>No Hans, you weren't too vague.  I posted a web page dedicated to modern
>piracy.  Someone else added another three or four web pages to that (one was
>LLoyds), all of which conclusively state that piracy IS happening today.

Here I seem to be at fault. I must have missed both the references you
mention, or rather, thought that all you were documenting were cases of
national ships capturing private vessels. So I didn't even bother to check
your reference. I do deny that I was (just) being lazy. I have a limited
amount of time to spend with this computer. I do assure you that if I had
realized that you were referring to incidents of the kind I was asking for,
I would either have taken your word for it or checked it out for myself.
Could you please repost the references as I have deleted the digest where
you first posted them?

>The problem is Hans, even when your confronted with overwhelming evidence
>that piracy is occurring  (and I'm not talking about a countries naval
>vessels confronting fishing fleets)

I can't talk about you, since I must have missed (or unfairly dismissed)
your posting without checking it, but if you go through the other responses
there's been, you will notice that the examples everybody else have been
posting have been.

>you just refuse to accept it and ADMIT YOUR WRONG.
>Go out on the web and do your own research, I've done mine!

What if I promise to check out your reference if you repost it? Will that
make up for my previous blunder?

>I will admit OPENLY that I agree with your statements when talking about a
>STABLE Imperium with STABLE borders.  But at the fringes, even when the 3I
>was solid, there would be NUMEROUS possibilities for Piracy to occur.
>Whether this is done by the Varg, Aslan, Solomani or Imperial Warrant it
>matters not.

Ah. Back to the Traveller universe. The impossibility, or rather, extreme
difficulty that IMO will make pirates scarcer than hens' teeth, is not one
single factor but a combination that stacks up one on top of the other
until it becomes too expensive to be a pirate. The discussion has gone
back and forth over specific factors, but no one has addressed the
overall picture. It's all very well to talk glibly about this or that
fringe system being unpatrolled, but if it is a fringe system, then the
pirate will have to spend time (and if you own a starship, time is money)
to get there, will have to be lucky enough to get there just as the
system is visited by a merchant ship, and will have to be able to capture
it. All this means that just saying: "Hey, it could happen in a fringe
system" is not a very cogent argument.

>I don't have any intention of FORCING you to change your mind, just stop
>putting other people down for believing that the possibility exists.  It
>does exist, it is Traveller Canon and there is modern day piracy here on
>Earth.

Yes, it is Traveller canon. But so are all the things I base my opinion on:
The cost of a merchant ship; the cost of a ship capable of chasing down and
defeating a merchant ship; the earning potential of a ship with a 1G
maneuver drive; the earning potential of a ship with a 1G maneuver drive;
the resources available to the Imperial navy; the attitude of the Imperial
navy to pirate havens; the resources available to a planetary navy; by
analogy the resources available to a merchant company; the existence of
transponders (though not their exact working); the amount of time a merchant
ship spend going from one destination to another and where it spends the
time in between.

Thom Harris also writes:

>What I took exception to was the "Sigh. You're not listening" passages
>indicating 1) I'm too stupid to understand;

You're reading too much into it. What I wanted to convey by the "Sigh. You're
not listening" passage was: "Sigh. You're not listening." If you check the
posting I was responding to (not yours, btw. so why you took offense is
unclear to me) it did use national ships as an example, which is not very
helpful, since my basic thesis is that under the conditions prevailing in
the CT Imperium, piracy is just not profitable. Ie. the expected expenses
outwheigh the expected return. Since this is of little concern to national
ships, they don't provide very good analogies.

>2) Too lazy to do the research to prove my point;

See apology at start of this post. I did not realize that you had posted
proof. Repost it and I promise to check it out.

>or 3) Someone approaching me with a paternal attitude like they're dealing
>with a small child. Get a grip, I'm 46 years old, served in the Army for
>20 years on four continents in three "conflicts", got an IQ over a fricking
>egg plant and an attitude of kiss my @$$ whenever ANYONE patronizes me.

Get a grip yourself. If expressing regret at people not listening when it
appears that they are not listening is patronizing, then I guess I was being
patronizing. Only, that's not my definition of being patronizing and I'm not
going to apologize for it. 

>What's the problem of having pirates in certain circumstances under certain
>conditions.

None at all. It's just that Steven, Ian, I et alii believe that those
conditions don't exist in and around the CT Imperium.

>Why is it any one here's job to have to justify anything in our game to you
>or Hans.

It's nobody's job to justify anything to anybody about their own game. FYI
I stated early in the original debate (lo, these many months ago...) that I
used pirates in my own campaign. I just bemoaned the fact that they don't
make a whole lot of sense given the other conditions of the _official_
Traveller universe. Others responded that they did make sense, and the
dispute was off.

No one is even _required_ to prove any claim he makes. But if you want to
convince anyone of the truth of your claim, providing proof (or at least
evidence) is a distinct bonus. That cuts both ways, of course, but IMO the
pro-piracy people are so infuriatingly vague about their claims. What I
would like was for someone to provide a complete analysis of one pirate
trip: Make whatever assumptions he wanted (that didn't contradict other
parts of canon) and then tell me what kind of ship he's using, how it is
financed, where it is based, where it goes to find its prey, what it does
while it is waiting, how it selects the prey, how it captures it, what he
does with it afterwards, and how he returns to his home port with a profit.

If anyone on the other side thinks we are being infuriatingly vague, tell
us what you'd like us to provide in the way of arguments and I'll see
what I can do, as I've no doubt Steven and Ian will too.

>Going back to the original posts (correct me if I'm wrong), but I seem to
>remember this started out that you (generic) wouldn't attack any ship who's
>capitol value was less than yours.

No, that wasn't quite it. It was a combination of two things: 1) Some of us
believe that starships are few enough and sufficiently impossible to disguise
against a determined examination that it is possible to track down a starship
if you have sufficient particulars about it; we also think that if you are
performing ordinary business at a starport, you (at the very least) risk
leaving behind sufficient particulars. Depending on just how hard it is to
fake transponders, you may even have to chose between doing any business at
all or leaving behind your true transponder code. 2) Therefore a pirate
who captures a ship will have to ditch the ship, much as a bank robber
will have to ditch his getaway car. So unless the "take" is worth more
than the pirate ship, the pirate is taking a net loss.

>In other words why are you risking a
>400MCr Corsair against a 50 MCr (max value ship and cargo) merchant ship.

Yes, but only because we believe the risk is very great. If it was a
sufficiently small risk, it wouldn't matter that much.

>That was a fair question and I was pondering it and postulating a response
>when the post hit "Show any pirate activities in recent history and I'll
>retract" or something along those lines.

Actually, the whole line is a major digression. Long ago I claimed that I
hadn't heard of any privately owned warships (or even armed merchants)
running down another merchant ship an capturing it or its cargo lately. I
still haven't heard of any such activity, but I understand that you have.

>I then went out and did some searching thru the web and came up with a
>number of documented acts of piracy that met the criteria all on one web
>page. I posted that web address and right after that someone else posted
another three or four web pages. What kind of confirmation do YOU need
>when someone proves their point?

No more, and I regret that I have overlooked both postings. I hope we've
cleared up that point now.

>I don't have a problem with piracy being all but non-existent (key words are
>"all but"),

Ah, but that "all but" is equally uncanonical. According to canon, piracy
is endemic all over the Traveller universe (check the random encounter
tables). There have been some ingenious suggestions made about very
special circumstances that would allow someone to turn pirate. But the
"Hey, it's a living" piracy portrayed in several canonical Traveller
products don't make economic sense.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 09:15:12 -0400
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: Subs and Sensors

Ian Whitchurch wrote:

> One problem with this is under FFS, ships are rather easily detected
> at well outside weapons range. The reasoning came from Bruce 
> Macintosh, professional astronomer and all-around sensor guru, who 
> pointed out that space is dark and cold, and ships are bright and hot. 
> Weapons start to become ineffective at half a million km or so, as 
> light lag takes hold, but cheap sensors spot ships at millions of km.
>
> Essentially, it gets to be like Age of Sail combat - ships either 
> consent to combat, or are trapped without fuel and forced to fight 
> (the historical analogy is trapped against a coastline eg Trafalger).
>

Ian:  Thanks for this analogy.  I was missing this in my thinking, and
therefore didn't like it.  That makes perfect sense to me, particularly
after having just finished the Hornblower series again.  If you can
detect an enemy, and he is stronger, you can try to escape, or stay out
of range either until reinforcements arrive or until you can jump to
safety.

What would be the Traveller equivalent of staying to windward or would
there be such a thing?  Being outside the 100 diameter limit?  What are
the tactical advantage points?

Greg

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 09:28:26 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Turnlengths & physics (was Re: Coordinated Jumps)

>>Doesn't thirty minutes need to elapse while under constant 1G acceleration
>>to reach the velocity where 30k is covered in 30 minutes?
>>
>>Isn't distance covered while accellerating?
>>
>>So shouldn't the movement rate reflect this?
>>
>>Inquiring minds want to know.
>
>Standard physics textbooks will tell you that
>(1) distance covered = 1/2 * acceleration * time^2
>
>they will also tell you that
>(2) distance covered = velocity * time
>and that
>(3) velocity = acceleration * time
>
>Putting (3) into (2) will give you
>(4) distance covered = acceleration * time * time = acceleration * time^2

This is not accurate.  (3) gives you the acceleration *after* time 't' has
elapsed.  The *average* velocity for the time you are accelerating is the
operative velocity to plug into d=v*t, not the velocity at the *end* of
that period.

>Note the discrepancy between (4) and (1), the error stems from the wrong
>assumtion that (2) can be used in situations when velocity changes.

And since, in Traveller with reactionless thrusters, velocity is always
changing, the formula is always wrong.

[snip]
>Thus if yoy plan to create a vector based game system with only ONE TURN
>then use (1) but if you allow multiple gameturns you need to use (2) and
>(3) instead. Handy formulae for calculating various parameters in space
>combat are (replace 9.81 with 10 if you think FF&S2s acceleration fudge is
>agreeable)
>
>I've answered this a couple of times now - perhaps it should be put on the
>FAQ?

Perhaps it isn't because a few people disagree with you.  Please be clear
that the system you are proposing is wrong from a physics standpoint,
although it may very well be a good game system.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #531
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 29 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 532



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Subs and Sensors
Re: Drop tank system implementation
Re: Subs & Sandwiches
re: Subs and Sensors
Re: Piracy [long]
Piracy in the 20th Century
Re: Piracy now and in the TU
Jae Tellona's Starport's Throughput
How Does Treece Maintain an SDB Fleet?
Piracy
Re: Subs and Sensors
Re: Turnlengths & physics (was Re: Coordinated Jumps)
Re: Iikauskhi class Free Trader
Fire, Fusion, & Steel
The Ciencia Ephigenia Memorial Finishing School
RE: Fire, Fusion, & Steel
Re: Fire, Fusion, & Steel
Re: Turnlengths & physics (was Re: Coordinated Jumps)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 09:31:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael and MJ Houghton <herveus@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Subs and Sensors

Howdy!

summers wrote:
> Thu, 28 May 1998 14:38:20 -0400 (EDT), Michael and MJ Houghton
> <herveus@access.digex.net>
> > The reality is that there is going to be a fair amount of waste heat
> > to be radiated. A typical ship is going to be unusually bright in the IR
> > portion of the spectrum, under normal circumstances. A passive IR scan
> > should be able to spot ships without too much difficulty. Of course,
> > IYTU, the specific value of "too much" is rather up to you.
> 
> Except you can play games with changing the wavelength of emmisions and 
> with emitting directionally.

true, but you then need to know which way to avoid significant radiation.
This information will not always be available. Further, if you try to
monkey with the wavelength, you cut the radiation efficiency significantly.
The laws of thermodynamics are not always your friend. 

On the other hand, I am perfectly willing to acknowledge that the referee
can postulate away these troublesome items; she may just need to be
prepared to deal with the ramifications. 

yours,
Michael
- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@access.digex.net  | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.access.digex.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 15:33:18 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation

On Thu, 28 May 1998, Steven Hudson wrote:

> >Well, I never argued that they would "confiscate" _all_ their
> >profits.  I think it is quite reasonable they would tax them
> >(especially if those profits depend on the services that those
> >taxes provide).
> 
>   What do you think makes for a good accounting basis for Imperial
> taxation of mega-corps? I realize it's a bit of an odd question,
> but I'm interested in ideas other than taxing trade (popular) or
> just levying on member worlds (one of my favourites).
> 
>   Certainly the level of taxation needed to vastly enlarge the
> Navy's tanker fleet is going to approach confiscatory levels in
> terms more used to the concept than our societies.

>         Steven Hudson

Can the Imperium directly tax private busniesses? I would think not. As I
see it, it is the individual worlds that set their own taxrate, while the
subsector duke sets his rate that this world has to pay, while the sector
duke sets his rate that the subsector has to pay, and the Imperium gets
their funds from taxing the sector dukes. 

This means that there probably will be very large differences in taxation
levels dependent on the political power of the worlds, and worlds owned by
mega-corps will be powerful enough to get a really low taxation from the
subsector duke. This again means that the subsector duke has to raise the
taxation of other less politically powerful worlds, so that he has the
money to run his subsector administration AND pay the sector duke the tax
he is asking for. 



Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 09:37:55 -0400
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: Subs & Sandwiches

Ian Whitchurch wrote:

<<<<<Now, look at Traveller sensor and combat ranges vis a vis the 100
diameter limit.

Now, look at the cost of a ship that will defeat a civilian.

Now, look at jump lag and the time freighters spend in port, and give me
three reasons why your bank will not, as a requirement of your starship
mortgage, require you to notify your next port of call via the first
available ship going there.

Ian Whitchurch>>>>>

I like this idea too.  It seems that it would be very reasonable to have
ships carrying official bulletins in their computers to be downloaded to
the next StarPort Authority on the ship's arrival insystem.  (I'm
thinking we had this discussion before).  In that package there would be
information on all ships with filed flight plans, announced next ports
of call, anticipated dignitaries' itineraries, etc. for that port of
call.  It would be date stamped (Imperial time).  

Greg

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 09:36:01 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Subs and Sensors

Greg Smith wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Ian:  Thanks for this analogy.  I was missing this in my thinking, and
therefore didn't like it.  That makes perfect sense to me, particularly
after having just finished the Hornblower series again.  If you can
detect an enemy, and he is stronger, you can try to escape, or stay out
of range either until reinforcements arrive or until you can jump to
safety.

What would be the Traveller equivalent of staying to windward or would
there be such a thing?  Being outside the 100 diameter limit?  What are
the tactical advantage points?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

IIRC, the CT (HG and TCS) campaign rules allowed ships to hang out
in the "outer system" - far enough away from any defending fleets that
they could not be effectively engaged. They couldn't refuel, and any orders
you gave them were delayed, but at least they were safe until their
power plant fuel (or life support consumables?) ran out. This was the 
standard place to find the remnants of a defeated system defense fleet,
or the jump fuelless survivors of a failed invasion fleet - ticking away
on minimum power, hoping for rescue or reinforcement.


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 15:58:00 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Piracy [long]

William F. Hostman writes:

>Hans Expounded thusly:
>>>Essentially, at least in the late 3rd Imperium, inter member warfare is
>>>seen as a safety valve, p[rovided it doesn't get out of hand. So are
>>>limited trade-wars. Most "Pirates" are actually going to be privateers,
>>>going from brushfire war to brushfire war, armed with letters of Marque,
>>>and "Enforcing" blockades...
>>
>>Are you talking about real privateers (privately owned warships whose only
>>expense to the government issueing the letter of marque is a bit of paper)
>>or starmercs (private ships hired for the duration with full logistic
>>support (including repairs) supplied by the government that hires them)?
> 
>Actually, Hans, I see starmerc vs pirate vs corsair as a sepctrum, based
                                                          ^^^^^^^^

I don't know that word. What does it mean?

>upon the published sources. In Hard Times, it references that starmerc
>without work sometimes turn pirate, and the difference between a corsair
>and a pirate is one of paperwork.

In the Traveller universe the difference between a corsair and a pirate is
what race the crew is, but I suppose you mean the difference between a
pirate and a privateer. The basic difference between the two is where it
can go for logistical support and fencing of the loot (and how the crew
is treated if caught), but I agree that for the purpose of my claim they
are pretty much alike: They both have to earn more than they spend. The
crusial difference from my POW is between pirates/privateers and commerce
raiders. The former's primary purpose is to earn money, the latter to
cause the enemy losses. In other words, the commerce raider is backed by
a war chest of some kind.

>As with ground mercs (see Bk 4:
>Mercenary), not all tickets will include full support.

OK, so there may be some hybrids. I guess at some point piracy becomes
feasible if they get some subsidy.

>A "Commerce Raider" of any flavor is a light warship with cargo capability,
>as I understand the term. 

Maybe. Not as I use it. What would you call the kind of ship I describe
above?

>Whether the operator is a pirate, starmerc,
>merchant, or corsair depends on what he's doing.

I repeat, because this is the crucial point, for the purposes of my argument
a pirate has to make a living while a national ship dosen't. As such,
privateers fall into the pirate category (economically, not leagally) and
starmercs and raiders fall into the national ship category. Perhaps I
should star talking about unbacked and backed ships instead.

>Starmercs sell their combat capability, cosairs and pirates use their
>combat capability to take value from other merchant craft,

Right, and my claim is that under most circumstances the economics of the
Traveller univers makes that a losing proposition.

>Where there is warfare, there are privateers or pirates. Where there is the
>potential to gain valuables without the time or expense of gaining them
>through more legitimate trade, there will be those who snatch and grab.

If that potential exist. But does it? Consider the cost of defending a
merchant route against the typical pirate or corsair compared to the cost
of losing even one merchant ship and tell me if a merchant company wouldn't
be stupid to let it's ships go unescorted?

>Based upon the Traveller Adventure, piracy is not overly common, but is a
>common enough threat where trade wars or local conflicts exist.

But the pirates of various Traveller encounter tables and some adventures
are not tradewar privateers or raiders. If they were, a passing Free Trader
would not be at risk. Remember, in a tradewar only the ships of the
opponent are legitimate prey.
  
>Also, the fact that the career exists indicates that it at least has a
>large enough basis of operations to support some significant portion of the
>population (ie, enough that is is worthy of being one of the 18 careers
>under MT).

You don't have to prove to me that pirates are canonical. What you have to
prove (if you want to, of course) is that they make sense.
 
>As to methods: Does every ship exit at 100 diameters? not IMTU.

They do in the official Traveller universe. Check the description of a
typical jump. Especially in the MT rules.

>Does every ship operate a transponder?

They do in the official Traveller universe. Whether they can be turned on
and off and the legalities involved depends on just what bit of canon you
prefer to other bits. IMTU they can be turned off, but you better have a
damn good reason if the authorities catch you at it (Like: "I was being
chased by a pirate!" ;-)

>Two pirates operating together, can tweak the salvage rules. One cripples
>the target, and the other "chases him off", claims the cargo, or even the
>ship as salvage in exchange for providing aid, and splits the take with the
>other ship(s) in the group. All it takes is being able to get there and
>force them to give you value before the anti-piracy forces can drive you
>off.

Well, that's part of it (and one of the disputed parts; I'm not at all
convinced that it is so easy to get a free shot at a merchant ship), but
it's not all. You also have to be able to do it often enough to pay the
expenses of all those ships. It's not that you can't pirate a ship if the
circumstances are just right; it's that IMO the circumstances won't be
just right often enough to allow anyone to make a living as a pirate.

>IMTU, most piracy occurs on the way OUT from a world... and
> almost all of the rest is sponsored interdicts.

If its sponsored, it's not piracy.
 
>Just like the 3d6 for 18+ roll for hijacking, piracy is implied in the
>rules. Therefore, it must exist,

Sure, it must exist. But does it make sense? Not IMO.

>I figure most piracy is supported by normal merchant operations

In that case the pirate is using a normal merchant ship, which makes him
ill equipped to pirate ships.

>with the occasional raid and occasional "merc op".

In that case the ship is a semi-warship, which makes it _impossible_ for
him to make a living by normal merchant operations.

>Full time piracy is only going to be a rare occasion. But when a pirate can
>show he's a "Legitimate Merchant", he's going to be able to cover up his ops.

If he is doing legitimate operations he is leaving a paper trail. Since a
ship is such a big investment, he can't change it as he'd change his car.
Sooner or later (and IMO sooner than later) the authorities are going to
become interested in him.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 10:08:48 EDT
From: FKiesche@aol.com
Subject: Piracy in the 20th Century

Greetings:

Well, not to jump into the flames, but piracy does exist in the 20th century. 

My foster brother is from Vietnam. He and several others came to the US as a
"boat person" (remember that?). While in the South China Sea their ship was
boarded and everyone was robbed. Some were beaten, some were killed.

Now, it wasn't a "state sanctioned ship" that attacked them, and it wasn't the
Walt Disney Pirates with Captain Hook...but it sure fits my definition of
piracy!

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche@aol.com)
(Traveller Since 1977)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 16:27:11 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Piracy now and in the TU

I wrote:
> Yes, it is Traveller canon. But so are all the things I base my opinion on:
> The cost of a merchant ship; the cost of a ship capable of chasing down and
> defeating a merchant ship; the earning potential of a ship with a 1G
> maneuver drive; the earning potential of a ship with a 1G maneuver drive;
                                                         ^^
That should have been 'a 3G maneuver drive'.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 1998 10:04 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Jae Tellona's Starport's Throughput

Steven Hudson noticed that Jae Tellona only has 900,000 people, 
but its starport sees more than 300,000 scurry through it per week.

I think this isn't unreasonable; it is a bit scary, though.  Let
me do some guesstimation.  I know a city isn't a planet, but what
the heck:

Dallas/Fort Worth population: 4,000,000
D/FW Airport capacity per day:
	flights per day           2500
	x passengers per flight    200
	x one week                   7
	------------------------------
                             3,500,000

So, each week, D/FW passes its ENTIRE population count in passengers
through its airport.  Needless to say, D/FW's economy IS based on its
commerce.

IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+
Rob Eaglestone 0609 A588865-B S  va- so- zh vi da+   323

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 1998 09:51 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: How Does Treece Maintain an SDB Fleet?

Hello all.

Douglas raised an issue -- how can a D-starport, low-tech world
like Treece maintain a system defense boat?

* First off, Treece can only afford 1 or 2 SDBs and a small handful
  of fighters; therefore, there won't be scads of in-system support
  personnel.

* I assume it would have to be on a standard, 40-year rent-to-own
  plan, with monthly 1/240 payments.  Delivery would be by some
  ship carrier, corporate or Imperial.  $$$

* All maintenance would have to be done by off-worlders; i.e. a
  house-call-driven maintenance ship, either corporate or Imperial. $$$

* Defense personnel would be military, which resolves the standard-of-
  living issue.

* All of these issues are waived if the system (like Treece) is a
  Captive Government -- obviously, the owning system supplies all
  necessary resources.  Problem solved.

Now, the question in my mind is: are these local defenses Imperial
or really Local?  If Local, then Imperial forces will be protecting
the starport, and local forces protect the worlds and spaceports,
is that correct?


IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+
Rob Eaglestone 0609 A588865-B S  va- so- zh vi da+   323

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 11:06:24 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Piracy

Is there an assumption being made that the
Pirate has to make more money at piracy than he would
be making at legitamate business - and that he needs to
take ships, not just cargo?

Many pirates of Earth history didn't buy their ships, they stole them.
Why should a pirate in Traveller be any different? And if the ship
is stolen, you aren't making bank payments on it - a massive 
financial advantage over "legitimate" merchants.

Once that bank payment pressure is missing, it becomes much
easier to make ends meet with just stolen cargos, even though
you're selling them at stolen goods markdowns.

Why not take the ship? Too much hassle. If the ship could jump,
it would have jumped to evade you already. If it can't jump, you
can't put a prize crew aboard and jump away from the approaching
system patrol craft. Put a shot across their bow, pick through their
cargo and valuables, maybe even take a wealthy passenger or two
for later ransom and scoot - the ship captain will take fewer risks to 
protect someone else's (probably insured) cargo than he will to 
protect his ship, and if he expects you to take cargo and send 
him on his way he'll be more likely to surrender.

Besides, it's far easier to disguise the origin of several tons of 
(most kinds of) cargo than it is to disguise a starship.

A pirate would need to sneak into a system and lurk, though. Those
ref's with TU's where incoming ships make big light blazes or
easily detectable grav pulses on jump exit - are there ways a single
ship can come in-system with less chance of detection? Perhaps a
fleet would be obvious, but a sub-1000tn vessel might be able to
pick a location or something that would somewhat mask the 
jump exit?

A pirate needs good sensors, good acceleration, enough weaponry
to defeat the average merchant it's designed to take (it simply runs
from stronger merchants), stealthing capabilities (either through
actual stealth or deception tactics), cargo capacity sufficient for
taking home a haul, and enough extra life support to take care
of boarding parties and prisoners. The best pirate ring will have
a secret base where prisoners can be held for ransom and stolen
cargos can be processed (either to remove or forge evidence of
origin) and moved to a free trader or other ship that would be less
conspicuous in a normal port.

How do you keep such a pirate base a secret? When YTU has every
ship arrival from jumpspace easy to detect, it's tough - you need an
unpatrolled or unoccupied system with a fuel source available. You
also have to be ready to abandon the base on very short notice - 
perhaps you keep a stolen type - S scout there to evacuate the
base personell and most valuable loot.

I imagine a Pirate Captain's worst nightmare - arriving at his clan's
base and finding Imperial Marines there.


Walt

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 08:42:58 PDT
From: "Paul Zumstein" <pzumstein@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Subs and Sensors

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>
>In mail you write:
>
>> I have a general (and possibly dumb) question, would tactically 
placing 
>> you ship between the local star and the opponent you wish to hide 
>> from/sneak up on give you any advantage?
>
>Sure. It's a tried and true tactic. Just remember that you *aren't*
>between the star and his buddies a few hundred thousand km off to the
>side. :-)
>

So as a military tactic it may not be usefull, but from a roleplaying 
standpoint it could be used by PCs to sneak up on an unsuspecting 
merchant/pirate/remote asteroid base (the list goes on).

Thanks

PZ


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 09:12:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Turnlengths & physics (was Re: Coordinated Jumps)

Anders Backman writes:
> >For accurate vector movement with the standard turns and hexes, assume
> >that G-turn of acceleration adds 1 hex/turn to your vector, and that for
> >your position at the end of the turn only add _half_ the velocity from
> >acceleration to distance.  As this is likely to generate half-hexes of
> >position, you might want to halve the size of hexes (and thus generate a
> >vector of 2/turn). 
> 
> Make a ship accelerate for 10 turns in a straight line with your system and
> see if it comes out right. A multigameturn system is an numerical
> simulation that samples speed and position at each turn. If you use
> integrated distances as basis for your samples you'll get errors which will
> grow as the number of turns increase  while my system will get closer and
> closer to reality as the number of turns increase.

Ok: to avoid fractions, we will use 2G acceleration.
1 turn: vector 0-2, we move 1 (i.e. 0(initial velocity)+1(half of vector gained
this turn)
2 turns: vector 2-4, we move 3 (total 4)
3 turns: vector 4-6, we move 5 (total 9)
4 turns: vector 6-8, we move 7 (total 16)
As it happens, figuring that 1 G-turn is 1 hex/turn is off by about 8%, but
that's a rounding error.  Other than that, my rules are correct, because they
are correct physics (technically, they are newtonian physics and won't work
over really extreme velocities, but that's a nonfactor in the combat system).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 12:00:49 -0500
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Re: Iikauskhi class Free Trader

Ian Whitchurch wrote:
>thrusters and the laser, or whatever. Again, the AEMS is a spare wheel -
>I'd have an AEMS/Lidar as part of an upgraded weaponary package, not a
>standard option (1 megacredit of sticker cost is 4 kilocredits per monthly
>payment, or the revenue from 4 dtons of cargo). You might even lose some of
>the CG as well - my numbers show it being 100 m3 or so, and with a flat gee
>from the thruster plates you might be better off with 30 m3 of CG and an
>extra 5 dtons of revenue earning capacity.

Thanks for your comments. That's one of the reasons I love the TML. People
can offer up ideas you may not have considered. Now, having said that, I'll
let you know why I disagree with you :)

AEMS: I could be talked into lowering the AEMS to a much lower sensitivity,
for sure. Maybe a rating 5, rather than 10 (what's the range of that,
Bruce?).
But I think that a ship needs one for local traffic avoidance and landings.
In particular, I would want a ship that has to land in poor visibility to
have one - it seems to me that PEMS may not be all that useful in such
situations.

CG: I have my CG at 1G for 2 reasons...
* This ship is not a airframe, thus it must direct its thrust in the lift
direction, raher than relying on airfoils for lift. Since the design is
based on the "standard" thrust-parallel-to-decks plan, the thruster plate
thrust is not completely available for takeoffs and landings. Thus, 1 G CG.
* I want the ship to be able to land on just about any planet, including
ones with gravities nearing 2 G.

>Note that the economics rules are broken for small staterooms vis a vis
>cargo and low berths - a mid passenger in a small stateroom creates net KCr
>6 revenue from 2 dtons, as compared to net KCr 2 from freight or net KCr
>1.8 from low berths. Allowing 2 middle passengers or a high passenger in a
>small stateroom makes the differential even worse.

I don't see the problem...you can't put 2 passengers in a small stateroom -
it isn't allowed. But you can put two in a large. So what's the difference,
two small state rooms and two passengers, or 1 large stateroom and 2
passengers. Or am I missing something?

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+  |
|       vi+ da+                                                      |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                           |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 12:07:37 -0500
From: "Goosby, Mark" <Mark.Goosby@msfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Fire, Fusion, & Steel

OK I give up...
I've been through all my sources in Alabama, Atlanta, Nashville and Memphis
and NOBODY has a copy of FFS  for me to purchase.  Does anyone on the list
have this document in a Word, PDF, or RTF format that I can beg, borrow,
steal etc.? If so please respond privately.  I just have a few questions on
comparisons...heplar v. thrusters v. cg.....Exactly what is LIDAR....OK stop
laughing...this is an old school CT player.

Thanks in advance

Goose

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 10:07:55 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: The Ciencia Ephigenia Memorial Finishing School

>What I took exception to was the "Sigh. You're not listening" passages
>indicating 1) I'm too stupid to understand; 2) Too lazy to do the research
>to prove my point; or 3) Someone approaching me with a paternal attitude
>like they're dealing with a small child.  Get a grip, I'm 46 years old,
>served in the Army for 20 years on four continents in three
>"conflicts", got
>an IQ over a fricking egg plant and an attitude of kiss my @$$ whenever
>ANYONE patronizes me.
>
>What's the problem of having pirates in certain circumstances under certain
>conditions.  Why is it any one here's job to have to justify
>anything in our
>game to you or Hans.  The attitude that pervades the posts is what got to
>me, I wasn't even going to post on the subject because it's so
>inflammatory.
>

(snip snip snip)

>I don't have a problem with piracy being all but non-existent (key words
are
>"all but"), that ain't the problem.  I just don't like other people's
>beliefs and ATTITUDES shoved up my rearward dark spot without my
>permission.
>
>Thom
>
>

You know, as much as I enjoy this mailing list (and I DO enjoy it), I agree
that there is WAY too much rudeness going on.  I've noticed a lot of
insensitive postings, beginning with "Nope.  You're wrong.  That's not true.
That's not right. You don't get it.  BZZZT!  Wrong answer! Try again.  Sigh
. . ." ad nauseum.

Did your mothers teach you guys to be so rude, or did you learn it on your
own?  These little "geek pissing contests," to see who can yell louder than
everyone else and therefore be declared the winner, are juvenile.  The WORST
part about it is that I suspect it keeps some lurkers/semi-lurkers (such as
myself) from posting, for fear that we will be confronted by one of the
"socially challenged."  I know I've kept my opinion to myself on many
subjects, after seeing them pointlessly spiral out of control into a flame
war.  It's not that I don't want to post, it's just that I don't need the
aggravation.  I avoid conversations with obnoxious people in the real world;
why would I seek them out behind the screen?

We're dealing with people here, not computers.  Just because you are safe
behind a terminal 1,000+ klicks from whomever you're debating doesn't give
you the right to be nasty to them.

Granted, it's not as bad as on some lists I've made the mistake of joining
for a time, like Champions ("You are such a loooser, fart-face!"), but I
honestly expect a lot more from this list.  It's a (generally) older, well
educated crowd, with a passion for the greatest science fiction rpg universe
out there.  I don't think the passion is to blame for the insensitivity,
though.  I think it's just plain old thoughtlessness.

This is a game, and these are opinions.  It may not be canon, the equations
may be off, it might be a misquote, or a terrible interpretation of the
rules, but everyone on this list deserves courtesy, and to be treated with
civility.


Brian ("hey, where'd this soapbox come from?") Mays

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 10:35:00 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Fire, Fusion, & Steel

My local friendly neighborhood game store has TONS of T4 and TNE stuff ,
including FF&S 1 and 2.  They just moved all of the TNE stuff to the used
bins to get rid of it, and the T4 drek is on the 20% off shelves.

Give them a call - GameScape (415) 621-GAME.  Tell 'em Brian Mays sent ya!


Brian (gamestore poster child) Mays

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM
>[mailto:owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM]On Behalf Of Goosby,
>Mark
>Sent: Friday, May 29, 1998 10:08 AM
>To: 'traveller@mpgn.com'
>Subject: Fire, Fusion, & Steel
>
>
>OK I give up...
>I've been through all my sources in Alabama, Atlanta, Nashville and Memphis
>and NOBODY has a copy of FFS  for me to purchase.  Does anyone on the list
>have this document in a Word, PDF, or RTF format that I can beg, borrow,
>steal etc.? If so please respond privately.  I just have a few questions on
>comparisons...heplar v. thrusters v. cg.....Exactly what is
>LIDAR....OK stop
>laughing...this is an old school CT player.
>
>Thanks in advance
>
>Goose
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 13:44:30 EDT
From: Qstor@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fire, Fusion, & Steel

I know there are a few dealers on the SJ games web page that do mail
order....I've dealt with them before and they are great....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 19:57:24 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Turnlengths & physics (was Re: Coordinated Jumps)

>Ok: to avoid fractions, we will use 2G acceleration.
>1 turn: vector 0-2, we move 1 (i.e. 0(initial velocity)+1(half of vector gained
>this turn)
>2 turns: vector 2-4, we move 3 (total 4)
>3 turns: vector 4-6, we move 5 (total 9)
>4 turns: vector 6-8, we move 7 (total 16)
>As it happens, figuring that 1 G-turn is 1 hex/turn is off by about 8%, but
>that's a rounding error.  Other than that, my rules are correct, because they
>are correct physics (technically, they are newtonian physics and won't work
>over really extreme velocities, but that's a nonfactor in the combat system).

Do you understand what we're talking about here? If not I'll fill you in:
If I have a certain hexscale and use past->present->future markers to
depict my ships location and speed what turnlength should I use if I want a
1 hex velocity change represent 1G of acceleration?

If you suggest that we should have separate markers depicting ships speed
and location please go ahead and post a system that works with that but I'm
interested in the normal Mayday/BattleRider system and there unfortunately
distance = acceleration * time^2 has to be used because we're not
integrating over time as in distance = 1/2 * acceleration * time^2 but
sampling at regular intervals called gameturns.

Lets compare the two formulae and set acceleration(a) = 2.0, turnlength(t)
= 1.0 for convenience
(1) d = 1/2 * a * t^2
(2) d = a * t^2
Lets look at a ship that is constantly accelerating over a number of turns
and see:
Turn    (1)             (2)             Reality
===============================================
1       1               2               1
2       1+2=3           6               4
3       3+3=6           12              9
4       6+4=10          20              16
5       10+5=15         30              25
6       15+6=21         42              36 etc

Can you see that (2) approaches Reality as the number of simulated turns
increase and that (1)
approaces 1/2 * Reality. Thus my statement that if the game should only
play for 1 gameturns
use (1) if there are suppoesed to be more than 1 gameturn of maneuvering
use (2).


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #532
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 29 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 533



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Turnlengths & physics (was Re: Coordinated Jumps)
Re: How Does Treece Maintain an SDB Fleet?
Re: How Does Treece Maintain an SDB Fleet?
Re: Jae Tellona's Starport's Throughput
Re: Piracy
Re: How Does Treece Maintain an SDB Fleet?
Re: Subs and Sensors
RE: Fire, Fusion, & Steel
Re: Website Questions
Re Piracy
Jump Exit Points
Re Piracy
Re: Piracy
Re: Jae Tellona's Starport's Throughput
Informations on Alien Animals
Rudeness on the TML
Re: Subs and Sensors
Re: Jump Exit Points
Piracy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 11:06:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Turnlengths & physics (was Re: Coordinated Jumps)

Anders Backman writes:
> Do you understand what we're talking about here? If not I'll fill you in:
> If I have a certain hexscale and use past->present->future markers to
> depict my ships location and speed what turnlength should I use if I want a
> 1 hex velocity change represent 1G of acceleration?

Hm...ok, I fail to understand what you're talking about with
past/present/future markers.  30 minute (really, 29 minute) turns are fine if
you want 1 turn of acceleration to give you a velocity of 1 hex/turn --
unfortunately, that turn of acceleration will only move you half a hex.  If you
want 1 turn of acceleration to move you one hex, use 41 minute turns, but after
accelerating for one turn you will _move_ one hex -- but if you then shut off
your drives the next (and subsequent) turns you will move 2 hexes.  This may
not be easy to represent on a mapboard.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 11:36:35 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: How Does Treece Maintain an SDB Fleet?

Robert Eaglestone wrote:

> Hello all.
>
> Douglas raised an issue -- how can a D-starport, low-tech world
> like Treece maintain a system defense boat?

I need to correct myself here - the bottom TL for a normal-space navy is
7.  It would be very crude, but Treece could *potentially* have some
system-wide presence.

> * First off, Treece can only afford 1 or 2 SDBs and a small handful
>   of fighters; therefore, there won't be scads of in-system support
>   personnel.
>
> * I assume it would have to be on a standard, 40-year rent-to-own
>   plan, with monthly 1/240 payments.  Delivery would be by some
>   ship carrier, corporate or Imperial.  $$$
>
> * All maintenance would have to be done by off-worlders; i.e. a
>   house-call-driven maintenance ship, either corporate or Imperial. $$$
>
> * Defense personnel would be military, which resolves the standard-of-
>   living issue.

Although it does raise an issue regarding training and retention of those
forces.

> * All of these issues are waived if the system (like Treece) is a
>   Captive Government -- obviously, the owning system supplies all
>   necessary resources.  Problem solved.
>
> Now, the question in my mind is: are these local defenses Imperial
> or really Local?  If Local, then Imperial forces will be protecting
> the starport, and local forces protect the worlds and spaceports,
> is that correct?

IMTU - The Imperium *does* supply system defense and anti-piracy patrols.
However, those patrols and SDB personnel are directly proportional to the
political clout of the Imperial nobility of that world.  A good measure of
it's political clout will be in what it supplies to the sector - a world
like Treece (Starport D, TL - 8 Trade Code of Po) will not have a lot of
clout.  It's population is somewhat ambigious - Pop 8 is a fairly high
concentration, and I must assume that the conditions that brought about
the Captive Government code may have contributed to it's rather mediocre
industrial development.  Because the system is not able to support and
maintain a permanently based SDB force, there will undoubtably be patrol
forces in the system.    Where those forces will be, what their readiness
status will be, and how effective they can be is a GM determination.   If
the patrol is going to be in the system for an extended period (several
months), they are seconded to the System Count (the System Count is the
nominal commander of System Defence Forces).

A system may also develop it's own System Defense, under the command of
the System Count (so I guess all SD forces are technically Imperial....)
These forces would be based on the local system's ability to produce and
maintain - or to purchase locally (i.e. subsector-wide).  The advantage to
a system building it's own SD force is that even if it is Imperialized
during emergencies, without J-Drives they probably are not going to go
anywhere.  The downside is that  the cost of this force is absorbed
totally by the world (although in some cases, especially in world with a
lot of clout, this can be negotiated), the world must still make it's
Imperial contribution.

However, remember that any forces that are developed will not be 100%
available.  Ships will be down for maintenance or crew leave; out on
patrols, resource development, search and rescue; on station in gas giants
and asteroid/planetoid belts on silent lurk duty, etc....

- --
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 12:08:09 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: How Does Treece Maintain an SDB Fleet?

>From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
>Subject: How Does Treece Maintain an SDB Fleet?
...
>* I assume it would have to be on a standard, 40-year rent-to-own
>  plan, with monthly 1/240 payments.  Delivery would be by some
>  ship carrier, corporate or Imperial.  $$$

  What about disposal of excess Imperial craft? A century old TL13
gunboat with the J-drives removed might be adequate (or TL-any if
removed from a Colonial inventory).

...
>Now, the question in my mind is: are these local defenses Imperial
>or really Local?  If Local, then Imperial forces will be protecting
>the starport, and local forces protect the worlds and spaceports,
>is that correct?

  Opinion is still divided on whether the Imperium routinely owns/
controls mainworld starports. Unless it becomes important it may
be best left unaddressed.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 12:08:24 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Jae Tellona's Starport's Throughput

>From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
>Subject: Jae Tellona's Starport's Throughput
>
>Steven Hudson noticed that Jae Tellona only has 900,000 people, 
>but its starport sees more than 300,000 scurry through it per week.
>
>I think this isn't unreasonable; it is a bit scary, though.  Let
>me do some guesstimation.  I know a city isn't a planet, but what
>the heck:

  I don't have a problem with it, as such. I'm just wondering if this
is common in the given model. OTOH, didn't Harry Harrison write a book
about that, "HotelWorld" or something?                  :>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 12:08:39 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy

Hello,
>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: Piracy
>
>Is there an assumption being made that the
>Pirate has to make more money at piracy than he would
>be making at legitamate business - and that he needs to
>take ships, not just cargo?

  No, but the pro's and con's of each need to be considered.
Obviously, the pirates want to make a (good) living, and probably
retire before the odds catch up with them.

...
>Once that bank payment pressure is missing, it becomes much
>easier to make ends meet with just stolen cargos, even though
>you're selling them at stolen goods markdowns.

  It also becomes much easier to make a living with legitimate cargo,
_if you do it in a non-compliant jurisdiction_. Leave the Imperium.
Otherwise you risk both the ship and yourself every day.

>Why not take the ship? Too much hassle. If the ship could jump,
>it would have jumped to evade you already. If it can't jump, you
>can't put a prize crew aboard and jump away from the approaching
>system patrol craft. Put a shot across their bow, pick through their
>cargo and valuables, maybe even take a wealthy passenger or two
>for later ransom and scoot - the ship captain will take fewer risks to 
>protect someone else's (probably insured) cargo than he will to 
>protect his ship, and if he expects you to take cargo and send 
>him on his way he'll be more likely to surrender.

  Well, this has been flogged a bit, but the issue comes down to
economics and game theory. It's much better for an individual pirate
to capture ships and quit the business than to play Russian roulette
indefinitely. Of course, individual encounters could quite easily go
down just that way.

There's a side issue as to the fenced value of an average Dt of cargo.

>Besides, it's far easier to disguise the origin of several tons of 
>(most kinds of) cargo than it is to disguise a starship.

  Yep.

>A pirate needs good sensors, good acceleration, enough weaponry
>to defeat the average merchant it's designed to take (it simply runs
>from stronger merchants), stealthing capabilities (either through
>actual stealth or deception tactics), cargo capacity sufficient for
>taking home a haul, and enough extra life support to take care

  Well, yes. But how do you ID a better armed merchant before engaging?
Also, such a pseudo-warship will be pretty easily identified from its'
performance envelope and operations profile. Unless it's an exceedingly
well documented yacht, any authorities are going to be very suspicious
upon encountering it.

>of boarding parties and prisoners. The best pirate ring will have
>a secret base where prisoners can be held for ransom and stolen
>cargos can be processed (either to remove or forge evidence of
>origin) and moved to a free trader or other ship that would be less
>conspicuous in a normal port.

  Pirate rings and bases (substantial ones, anyway) become very
questionable; economics again, and encounter probabilities. They've
got one thing only (crime) to make money at, their mobility (_if_
needed) is sharply reduced, and a single patrol ship vs pirate
(or infiltrator/turncoat) can now plug the entire operation.

  IMO, the most survivable source of pirate activity is the casual;
a (canonically) armed trader, who comes across a great opportunity
when he's desperate (or frankly, he's a scumbag) and takes the easy
way out. Maybe he's sure he didn't leave a trail, maybe they run for
the border. Maybe something goes wrong.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 21:19:42 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: How Does Treece Maintain an SDB Fleet?

On Fri, 29 May 1998, Steven Hudson wrote:

> >From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
> >Subject: How Does Treece Maintain an SDB Fleet?
> ...
> >* I assume it would have to be on a standard, 40-year rent-to-own
> >  plan, with monthly 1/240 payments.  Delivery would be by some
> >  ship carrier, corporate or Imperial.  $$$
> 
>   What about disposal of excess Imperial craft? A century old TL13
> gunboat with the J-drives removed might be adequate (or TL-any if
> removed from a Colonial inventory).
> 

Exactly :-) This is I think an often missed point. There is going to be
quite alot of old beaten up ships out there, that are in use by poor
worlds, merchants and pirates. Not every ship meet will be a state of the
art, newly buildt vessel IMO. 


Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 15:02:44 -0500
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Subs and Sensors

"Paul Zumstein" <pzumstein@hotmail.com> wrote:

[minor reformatting]
> >From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> >
> >In mail you write:
> >
> >> I have a general (and possibly dumb) question, would tactically 
> >> placing you ship between the local star and the opponent you wish
> >> to hide from/sneak up on give you any advantage?
> >
> >Sure. It's a tried and true tactic. Just remember that you *aren't*
> >between the star and his buddies a few hundred thousand km off to the
> >side. :-)
>
> So as a military tactic it may not be usefull, but from a roleplaying 
> standpoint it could be used by PCs to sneak up on an unsuspecting 
> merchant/pirate/remote asteroid base (the list goes on).

Well, not exactly.  Let's set up the playing surface, using the Sun 
as the star and Mercury for the pirate base, using 30 Mm hexes from 
Brilliant Lances.  The photosphere of the Sun (a G2V star) has a 
diameter of 1390 Mm (46 hexes); meson gun fire through the Sun would
be at extreme range, even if both ships were right above the surface
(and the mesons really could go through).  Mercury orbits 57900 Mm
(1930 hexes) fron the Sun, and fits in one hex.

It'd be nice if you could jump in; Mercury's 100-diameter limit is
at 16 hexes, and a 6G ship dropping out of jump with a vector of 10
could be on the ground in about 60 minutes.  Unfortunately, the
Sun's 100-diameter limit is at 4630 hexes from Sol, 2700 hexes past
Mercury's orbit.  A 6G ship with unlimited fuel that exits jump 
there with a vector of *180* (0.01c) could brake all the way and 
land in about 15 hours.  (Obviously, this won't work for HEPlaR.)
Either way, your bright exhaust will be pointed at them for a long
time.

Basically, it's tricky to set up a scenario like this.  You might
get some benefit if you can put the star to your back, but that'd
be interesting to arrange, too.  Using moons as cover, however, is
a lot more feasible.... 

  -- Steve Bonneville
 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 13:01:01 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: RE: Fire, Fusion, & Steel

At 10:35 AM 5/29/98 -0700, you wrote:
>My local friendly neighborhood game store has TONS of T4 and TNE stuff ,
>including FF&S 1 and 2.  They just moved all of the TNE stuff to the used
>bins to get rid of it, and the T4 drek is on the 20% off shelves.
>
>Give them a call - GameScape (415) 621-GAME.  Tell 'em Brian Mays sent ya!

Justin's been holding out on me it seems....  I'll have to smack him around
a bit next time we're there.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 13:11:02 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Website Questions

At 07:39 AM 5/29/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Hello each - a few belated questions:
>
>1. Is the Traveller Webring still in existence?

Going strong!

>2. If it is, how do I join, please?

Go to: http://enterprise.hb.se/~goeran/traveller/webring.html

>3. Do I need to do anything to keep my website
>   within the bounds of propriety other than
>   put up a disclaimer saying Traveller is (c)
>   FFE and attribute copyright on individual
>   pages correctly?

Just add the following html somewhere on the page.

<div align=center><center><table border=3><tr><td align=center>
Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises.<br>
Portions of this material are Copyright &copy;1977-1998 Far Future
Enterprises.
</td></tr></table></center></div>

>4. Should I tell anyone about the website
>   and seek their approval (apart from those
>   like Marc who frequent this list - I'm
>   assuming if they disapproved I'd have
>   heard by now).

I don't think anyone has ever complained about anyone's site.. although
loren did call the Silly Era "alleged" humor..  If you are going to take
something from another person's site (an image or backround) it's good form
to ask first.  Additionaly, ask before posting someone's work, even if it's
something trivial.  (Everything in the Silly Era is reprinted by
permission.)
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 11:54:08 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Re Piracy

Mans responded to Thomas thusly:
>>I don't have any intention of FORCING you to change your mind, just stop
>>putting other people down for believing that the possibility exists.  It
>>does exist, it is Traveller Canon and there is modern day piracy here on
>>Earth.
>
>Yes, it is Traveller canon. But so are all the things I base my opinion on:
>The cost of a merchant ship; the cost of a ship capable of chasing down and
>defeating a merchant ship; the earning potential of a ship with a 1G
>maneuver drive; the earning potential of a ship with a 1G maneuver drive;
>the resources available to the Imperial navy; the attitude of the Imperial
>navy to pirate havens; the resources available to a planetary navy; by
>analogy the resources available to a merchant company; the existence of
>transponders (though not their exact working); the amount of time a merchant
>ship spend going from one destination to another and where it spends the
>time in between.
>
Actually, Hans, the price of ships varies between editions; sometimes
drastically. Which pricing scheme you use sets value of starcraft. IE, cost
variance of Type S at TLs 12-15 via MT is 50-70 MCr by designing it, right
about 30 listed in MTIE, and varies again with every differing system for
designing craft. The ammounts of fress space also vary, as each different
system for design has different useage assumptions to one degree or
another. so, while pricing of ships may be Canon, it is not a single canon
at all.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 12:16:46 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Jump Exit Points

[figured this were better split off from the piracy thread]

Hans implied in a post that all ships exit jump ONLY AT the 100 diameter
limit. My interpretation of the rules is that a ship exits jump NO CLOSER
THAN 100 diameters. This is a major difference. My support for this comes
from the MT Misjhump rules, which include spatial errors in misjump, which
put you hours or even days from the target, but in the target system.

Similar exists under TNE. Especially the RSB's Calibration Points.

So, if an error can put you out  without forcing you against the edge of a
gravity well, why can you not choose to drop out beyond that limit?

Also, if normal jump exit requires exiting against the gravity well, the
canonical ability to jump to "Empty Hexes" becomes erroneous except via
misjump.

Similarly, unnder TNE, you can set jump coordinates so your vector will
allow you minimal burns to orbit (Bingo Jump). I can see cases where this
would require more than 100 diameters out.


William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 11:58:17 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Re Piracy

>>Actually, Hans, I see starmerc vs pirate vs corsair as a sepctrum, based
>                                                          ^^^^^^^^
>
>I don't know that word. What does it mean?
typo, should be Spectrum.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 15:27:33 -0500 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: Piracy

>Is there an assumption being made that the
>Pirate has to make more money at piracy than he would
>be making at legitamate business - and that he needs to
>take ships, not just cargo? [...]


The assumption being made is that a pirate has to make money (or at least
break even) -- not lose it. The anti-piracy view is that due to many
factors, piracy as a career would not be financially viable within the
bounds of a stable 3I setting, nor would it be conductive to the health of
the would-be pirate.

These factors have been disputed, and include (but are probably not limited to):

1) The effectiveness of sensors.
2) The range of starship weapons.
3) The actual volume of space where a potential target
   will be.
4) The ability of the Imperium to patrol this volume of
   space (i.e., the Imperium's industrial capacity).
5) The will of the Imperium to patrol this volume.
6) The ability of merchants to arm themselves.
7) The ability of merchants to hire armed escort.
8) The value of starships and the cost of starship
   maintenance (and repair) compared to the income
   gained by piracy (i.e., cargo or ships).

I am certain there are more.

I do not think there is an argument about the occurance of piracy in M0,
Rebellion, Hard Times, or post-Virus settings. Nor do I think there is an
argument against subsidized acts of piracy (i.e., privateers, star mercs,
and what have you).

An itemized list addressing such factors would be welcome, IMHO.
Personally, I think the "piracy-wouldn't-happen" camp has done a much
better job of doing this then "piracy-could-happen camp." Of course, this
may be due to bias (or my bias may be due to this). ;-)

Ciao,


Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 16:46:50 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Jae Tellona's Starport's Throughput

Robert Eaglestone wrote:

> Steven Hudson noticed that Jae Tellona only has 900,000 people,
> but its starport sees more than 300,000 scurry through it per week.
>
> I think this isn't unreasonable; it is a bit scary, though.  Let
> me do some guesstimation.  I know a city isn't a planet, but what
> the heck:
>
> Dallas/Fort Worth population: 4,000,000
> D/FW Airport capacity per day:
>         flights per day           2500
>         x passengers per flight    200
>         x one week                   7
>         ------------------------------
>                              3,500,000
>
> So, each week, D/FW passes its ENTIRE population count in passengers
> through its airport.  Needless to say, D/FW's economy IS based on its
> commerce.

You forgot Love Field and Alliance Airport.
But you might want to factor in that DFW is an American Airlines
hub, (and Love is a Southwest hub), which forces many people
there who don't actually want to go through the airport, since the
airlines route through Dallas because they want to, i.e., a direct
flight to where such passengers want to go isn't economically worth it.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 21:37:20 +0100
From: Dom <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Informations on Alien Animals

I would be interested if anyone knew where the following
creatures appear in Traveller

Kian - I think this is a JTAS Bestiary

Bush Runner

Grass Dog

Gratheudom


Cheers



Dom
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com  or  mailto:dominicr@bigfoot.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 20:58:49 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Rudeness on the TML

I agree with Mr Mays, for whatever it may be worth to you.

I object to being 'spoken' to via Email in such a way that would get the
speaker punched in real life.

Those who think it's clever to scream insults from their terminal a
thousand miles away are in fact demonstrating one of the popular SF
dystopia cliches - people become so insulated from one another that they
can't relate 'for real'.

OBTRAV: Low-pop, high-tech world, with scattered citizens living in small
groups. Everyone becomes abrasive because they don't have to live with the
consequences of being rude to one another. PCs arrive, being the first
offworld visitors for years, and fun ensues.....

MJD.

(distributing peace and happiness as usual)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 14:13:57 PDT
From: "Paul Zumstein" <pzumstein@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Subs and Sensors

>From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>

>"Paul Zumstein" <pzumstein@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>[minor reformatting]
>> >From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>> >
>> >In mail you write:
>> >
>> >> I have a general (and possibly dumb) question, would tactically 
>> >> placing you ship between the local star and the opponent you wish
>> >> to hide from/sneak up on give you any advantage?
>> >
>> >Sure. It's a tried and true tactic. Just remember that you *aren't*
>> >between the star and his buddies a few hundred thousand km off to 
the
>> >side. :-)
>>
>> So as a military tactic it may not be usefull, but from a roleplaying 
>> standpoint it could be used by PCs to sneak up on an unsuspecting 
>> merchant/pirate/remote asteroid base (the list goes on).
>
>Basically, it's tricky to set up a scenario like this.  You might
>get some benefit if you can put the star to your back, but that'd
>be interesting to arrange, too.  Using moons as cover, however, is
>a lot more feasible.... 
>

Actually, I was referring to using the star at your back but you bring 
up some interesting points.  I would not expect to arrive undetected, 
but possibly surprise and reduce the amount of reaction time available.  
Scenarios would definitely be limited.

Thanks,

PZ

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 16:22:52 -0500 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: Jump Exit Points

>So, if an error can put you out  without forcing you against the edge of a
>gravity well, why can you not choose to drop out beyond that limit?

Please explain why a merchant ship would want to do this. Time is money, no?

>Similarly, unnder TNE, you can set jump coordinates so your vector will
>allow you minimal burns to orbit (Bingo Jump). I can see cases where this
>would require more than 100 diameters out.

Is this the only reason? What are the others?

Ciao,


Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 17:22:50 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Piracy

Steven Hudson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  Well, this has been flogged a bit, but the issue comes down to
economics and game theory. It's much better for an individual pirate
to capture ships and quit the business than to play Russian roulette
indefinitely. Of course, individual encounters could quite easily go
down just that way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Some people would say that sensible people don't decide on a life
of crime in the first place. It was a rare Terran 17th-19th century
pirate who retired peaceably - a lot of famous ones did, but for every
successful one there were hundreds who died young.

Steve continues:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>snip>>>>>>>>>>>.
  Well, yes. But how do you ID a better armed merchant before engaging?
Also, such a pseudo-warship will be pretty easily identified from its'
performance envelope and operations profile. Unless it's an exceedingly
well documented yacht, any authorities are going to be very suspicious
upon encountering it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That's why you don't encounter the authorities with this ship - that's what
your pirate syndicate maintains cargo transfer points and legal-looking
free traders for. As I mentioned earlier, it's much harder if the way
jump exit works IYTU makes it impossible to jump into a system 
without being detected. 

As for IDing a better-armed merchant - if it looks like a 400-dtn 
Fat Trader, it probably is a 400-dtn Fat Trader. The vast majority
of these will have armament you can handle - if you run into an
upgunned version, you break off and try to break system patrol
detection - if you can't, you jump. If you can't jump, you make 
interesting copy for the local newsfaxes. The life of a pirate is 
short.

If you are detected coming in-system, you need the ability to look
harmless until your passive sensor arrays tell you the situation is
good: a merchanter within your interception envelope while it's
outside patrol ship interception envelopes. Of course there's a chance
an SDB lying doggo will surprise you, but many a terran merchantman
has been saved by the timely appearance of a friendly frigate over
the horizon in the age of sail - as I mentioned, pirates will be risk-takers.

Steve again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
  Pirate rings and bases (substantial ones, anyway) become very
questionable; economics again, and encounter probabilities. They've
got one thing only (crime) to make money at, their mobility (_if_
needed) is sharply reduced, and a single patrol ship vs pirate
(or infiltrator/turncoat) can now plug the entire operation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Several easily-abandoned bases instead of one big one, then - and many
crime rings live in fear of one infiltrator/turncoat, even today. How much
damage have single informers done to the American mafia recently?

Piracy + kidnap ransom + smuggling + extortion - you can make a pretty
good living if you'r creative and ruthless enough.

Steve again
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  IMO, the most survivable source of pirate activity is the casual;
a (canonically) armed trader, who comes across a great opportunity
when he's desperate (or frankly, he's a scumbag) and takes the easy
way out. Maybe he's sure he didn't leave a trail, maybe they run for
the border. Maybe something goes wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
These would exist anyway - Merchant Prince indicates that
anyone on a Free Trader will be an occaisional pirate/smuggler/etc.
I think that the "Pirate/Corsair" career in MT/TNE/CotI indicates
organized pirate groups that make a habit of it.

Of course, any pirate showing his ship at a type-A starport system
deserves what he gets.... :)

Walt Smith

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #533
**********************************

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Traveller-digest        Friday, May 29 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 534



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)
Plot Device Wanted
Gas giant + sun = ?
Query regarding Traveller Minatures 15mm 
Re: Subs and Sensors
Re: Subs & Sandwiches
Re: Subs and Sensors
Re: Plot Device Wanted
Re: Piracy
Re: Gas giant + sun = ?
Piracy   :)
Re: Jae Tellona's Starport's Throughput
New Website + FREE URL Bonus!
Sensor range: New question
Re: Jump Exit Points
re : Piracy
Staying to windward
Re: Protection of Commerce on Treece, Jae Tellona, Vland
Piracy and comments on Iikaushki class trader

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 14:36:16 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson);
>   Here's a potential problem with the "piracy at minor irritant levels"
> thesis; under this regime any group of PC's/seedy characters/Vargr
> could quite likely go into business for themselves quite successfully,
> seamlessly switching back and forth between smuggling, piracy, slavery,
> hijacking, organ-legging, and kidnapping with little chance of being caught
> in the short run.

The point of piracy as a minor irritant is that chances
of getting caught will be enough to deter enough people
from the crime that is will not happen very often.  Thus
I would diagree with "little chance of getting caught".

> Important to consider that you get an acceptable
> likely equilibrium level of activity (given risk, reward, and ease of
> market entry).

That is what I am advocating.

>   I suppose there's no practical way of figuring out what ship is
> supposed to be what? If no electronic device is reasonably tamper
> resistant, then banks clear account info very slowly, and electronic
> account carrying becomes impossible.

No _sure_ way.  If a ship doesn't have a good explination,
or claims to be from Regina, but the patrol ships just
came from there and it is clear the captain has not
idea what just happened there, etc. they might get
caught, they make a mistake when they report the
ship's ID (ships made in 994 all had _9_ digit
IDs) and other forgery type mistakes.  I would just
treat is as a contest between the interrogator and
the interrogatee.

> >You missed what I said.  The local government is in charge of
> >customs and such, not with security for transiting ships.
 
>   I'm not sure what you said. The Imperium is responsible for
> transiting ships? Does it do anything about it? What does it do
> if a member world is actively supporting piracy? IYTU, anyway.

Make it stop?  A member world actually supporting piracy
is a pretty blatant act.  If there is a pirate base on
your world you are pretty up front....

> >Well, the number of companies that make the stuff would be,
> >in my mind, more limited than the number of ships travelling
> >in the imperium....

>   This has been covered by others; it seems vastly unlikely to
> be the case. Also, doesn't that simply create an enormous import
> market for illegal nukes? How is nuke licensing handled, or is
> civilian possession banned?

Yeah, I'm guessing that ships transiting from outside
Imperium space are treated differently.  I haven't
thought much about boarder restrictions, but travelling
to a world within Jump-6 of the border might be different.
Anyway, I'm not saying that stopping nukes at the source
is easy, it just that searching every ship in a way
that you can reasonably expect to find them is almost
impossible and still doesn't stop nukes from being
used on the worlds where they were made..

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 22:40:57 +0100
From: Rob Day <rob@glisten.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Plot Device Wanted

Hi.

Has anybody got any suggestions on how I could make the following
scenario work?

Basically, I want a way to make a large explosion on a merchant ship
look like an accident. The plot goes as follows :
Two characters (brothers) run a freighter between them. One of the
brothers is involved with organised crime (possibly in debt, or stole
something from the crime boss, haven't worked that out yet). The crime
boss wants to kidnap the 'criminal' brother, and use this as leverage
to force the other 'good' brother to do various illegal runs in the
freighter. As an additional inducement, a bomb will be placed on the
ship, and it's presence will be revealed to the 'good' brother as a
trump card if necessary. That's the plan. However, what is going to
happen is that the 'criminal' brother will be kidnapped, but then the
bomb will explode while being placed on the ship. This takes place in
(on?) a highport, and security logs show someone going on to the ship,
using the 'criminal' brothers ID (there will not be enough detail to
show exactly who the person is on the log, though). So, the 'good'
brother (and the authorities) will think the 'criminal' brother has
been killed in the explosion, whereas in fact the crime boss is now
desperately wondering what to do with him. Mucho hijinks follows as
the 'good' brother finds out whats going on and rescues brother with
the help of a few friends, while the crime boss tries to recover the
stolen item.

So, how can a large explosion be produced, preferably destroying the
ship and a decent chunk of the highport, which will still look like an
accident? Can a fusion plant be made to explode somehow? Or is it
going to have be a dodgy cargo that's reposonsible? Possibly a 'small'
explosion is more likely that triggers a volatile cargo?

Any help would be much appreciated : )

Regards,

Rob.
- -- 
Rob Day
rob@glisten.demon.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 17:36:14 -0400
From: ringrose@ascent.com
Subject: Gas giant + sun = ?

Assumptions:

1. you have a jump-capable multi-Jupiter-sized gas giant (how is
irrelevant)
2. said gas giant exits jump with zero vector relative to star.
3. you actually want to do this.

Questions:

For various star types

a. what formula will give, based on distance in solar diameters, the
length of time for the gas giant to fall into the sun.
b. what will happen when it does.


	- robert ringrose
	  ringrose@ascent.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 22:33:52 +0100
From: Dom <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Query regarding Traveller Minatures 15mm 

Another question to the combined oracle of the Traveller Mailing
List.

A while back I got some 15mm figures made by Hobby Products GmbH

They were reasonably priced and came in blister packs of 6 figures.

Does anyone know of a shop that still has some of these figures ?

R1101 Adventurers
R1102 Adventuresses
R1103 Military
R1104 Space Marines
R1105 Droyne/Chirpers
R1106 Robots

Once again thanks



Dom
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com  or  mailto:dominicr@bigfoot.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 14:54:55 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Subs and Sensors

Fri, 29 May 1998 09:31:10 -0400 (EDT), Michael and MJ Houghton
<herveus@access.digex.net>
> > Except you can play games with changing the wavelength of emmisions and 
> > with emitting directionally.
> 
> true, but you then need to know which way to avoid significant radiation.
> This information will not always be available.

Actually, I think you often no at least one direction where the enemy
is not likely to be.  But even if you didn't, if you beam is tight
enough the odds of an enemy picking you up can one in a thousand
(or worse).

> Further, if you try to
> monkey with the wavelength, you cut the radiation efficiency significantly.
> The laws of thermodynamics are not always your friend. 

Yeah, you have to put more out.  But if you are masked by, say, the
cosmic
background, or you are in the absorption band for hydrogen, you are way
ahead.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 15:01:00 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Subs & Sandwiches

Fri, 29 May 1998 09:37:55 -0400, Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
> Now, look at jump lag and the time freighters spend in port, and give me
> three reasons why your bank will not, as a requirement of your starship
> mortgage, require you to notify your next port of call via the first
> available ship going there.

Because merchants don't like having to wait a week because
there isn't a ship going to where they want to go?  Or loose
out on a cargo that wants to be shipped today?  So they
just go to a competator and pay slightly higher insurance
rates?  Because the bank doesn't like to have spend a lot
of money making sure that the ships they finance are following
this provision?
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 17:01:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Subs and Sensors

"Paul Zumstein" <pzumstein@hotmail.com> politely pointed out:

> >> >> placing you ship between the local star and the opponent you wish
[...]
> Actually, I was referring to using the star at your back but you bring 
> up some interesting points.  I would not expect to arrive undetected, 
> but possibly surprise and reduce the amount of reaction time available.  
> Scenarios would definitely be limited.

Urk.  For some reason, I read that the other way around.  (Maybe because
I've heard the "what if we sneak up from behind the star?" question so
often!)  Anyway, most of that is still relevant.  :)

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 18:06:13 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Plot Device Wanted

Rob Day wrote:

> Hi.
>
> Has anybody got any suggestions on how I could make the following
> scenario work?
>
> Basically, I want a way to make a large explosion on a merchant ship
> look like an accident. The plot goes as follows :
> Two characters (brothers) run a freighter between them. One of the
> brothers is involved with organised crime (possibly in debt, or stole
> something from the crime boss, haven't worked that out yet). The crime
> boss wants to kidnap the 'criminal' brother, and use this as leverage
> to force the other 'good' brother to do various illegal runs in the
> freighter. As an additional inducement, a bomb will be placed on the
> ship, and it's presence will be revealed to the 'good' brother as a
> trump card if necessary. That's the plan. However, what is going to
> happen is that the 'criminal' brother will be kidnapped, but then the
> bomb will explode while being placed on the ship. This takes place in
> (on?) a highport, and security logs show someone going on to the ship,
> using the 'criminal' brothers ID (there will not be enough detail to
> show exactly who the person is on the log, though). So, the 'good'
> brother (and the authorities) will think the 'criminal' brother has
> been killed in the explosion, whereas in fact the crime boss is now
> desperately wondering what to do with him. Mucho hijinks follows as
> the 'good' brother finds out whats going on and rescues brother with
> the help of a few friends, while the crime boss tries to recover the
> stolen item.
>
> So, how can a large explosion be produced, preferably destroying the
> ship and a decent chunk of the highport, which will still look like an
> accident? Can a fusion plant be made to explode somehow? Or is it
> going to have be a dodgy cargo that's reposonsible? Possibly a 'small'
> explosion is more likely that triggers a volatile cargo?

Well concidering all the jump fuel, a ship is virtually a bomb in itself.
Since it costs 2000 Cr per trip per person to restock a ship, that's going
to include lots of fresh oxygen in high pressure tanks, which are virtual
bombs in themselves.  Then  there are computer glitches, radiation shield
collapses, fusion core melt downs... Proving it to be something other than
an accident would be difficult at best.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 15:10:04 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy

Fri, 29 May 1998 12:08:39 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven
Hudson)
>   No, but the pro's and con's of each need to be considered.
> Obviously, the pirates want to make a (good) living, and probably
> retire before the odds catch up with them.

Desires and expectations can often be out of whack with
reality.  I was watching a show that talked about the
lifesytle of pirates raiding shiping coming out of the
Spanish New World.  They looked at a record of what
they were capturing and there wasn't much gold and
silver in it.  It was a lot a routine stuff and they
were far from getting rich.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 18:12:29 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Gas giant + sun = ?

ringrose@ascent.com wrote:

> Assumptions:
>
> 1. you have a jump-capable multi-Jupiter-sized gas giant (how is
> irrelevant)

1a. the gas-giant has a mass significant to that of the star.

> 2. said gas giant exits jump with zero vector relative to star.
> 3. you actually want to do this.
>
> Questions:
>
> For various star types
>
> a. what formula will give, based on distance in solar diameters, the
> length of time for the gas giant to fall into the sun.

use the universal gravity law, I don't remember it off the top of my
head but it involves the product of the two masses and the inverse
square of the distance.

> b. what will happen when it does.

If the rotational velocity of the star is larger than the impact
velocity, then the two will merge and after a few weeks form a new star
with a composite mass of the star and the gas giant.  If not, you're
looking at a big mess...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 15:36:22 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Piracy   :)

Hey Hans!

How about we just pull out the Piracy Debate articles from the TML
archives and refight the battle!!

:)

douglas


- --
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 15:56:24 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Jae Tellona's Starport's Throughput

Robert Eaglestone wrote: So, each week, D/FW passes its ENTIRE
population count in passengers

> through its airport.  Needless to say, D/FW's economy IS based on its
> commerce.

Respectfully, I must disagree.

I think a more accurate representation would be a seaport in the late
1800's or early 1900's, when commerce depended on ship traffic to flow.
This would more accurately simulate not only the cost of travel - High
or Mid passage on a starship represents a considerable sum as opposed to
an airline ticket which is fairly inexpensive.  It also relates to the
relative inconvience of travel, when such travel takes days or weeks,
not hours.

Using the US Military as a base.  Retirement after 20 years is 50% of
base pay.  In Traveller, that means that a senior military person earns
about cr 8,000 in base pay per year.  As an E-6, I pulled in about 30K,
but about 10K of that was benefits, not base pay.  To be generous, let's
figure about a 1:3 ratio.  That means in US dollars, Mid-Passage would
be about $24,000 and Hi-Passage would be about $30,000.  Cross Atlantic
passage on the new Titanic is being bandied from anywhere around $10,000
to $100,000 - so these figures may be a bit on the low side, but
workable.

A cross country (US) ticket, depending on the market, can range from $99
to $1,000.

What I'm trying to point out is that you are comparing Apples to
Oranges.  Using air traffic, because it is the highest TL we have
available, is not an accurate representation.  Especially when you
consider that travel costs in a starship represent months or years of
income for the average individual, when air traffic represents weeks, or
even hours of income.

douglas


- --
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 18:32:36 +0000
From: "Pearson Publishing" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: New Website + FREE URL Bonus!

Sorry about the lack of URL ... ("forest for the trees" ... "galaxy 
for the stars"  ... or something like that ...)

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/4089

James Pearson
jdpearson@wr.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 19:35:49 EDT
From: Qstor@aol.com
Subject: Sensor range: New question

I saw the discussion before and someone had said that a planet was in a 2
parasec sensor range. What about ships? I looked through T4 and CT and all's I
could find was in the Traveller Book a reference to ships being detectable
within systems only...less than 1 AU.....That doesn't make sense to what's
been discussed here. Is the range for ship detection longer???
Thanks.
Mike Mckeown

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 98 01:48 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Jump Exit Points

Moin William F. Hostman,

> Hans implied in a post that all ships exit jump ONLY AT the 100 diameter
> limit. My interpretation of the rules is that a ship exits jump NO CLOSER
> THAN 100 diameters.

	The "no closer than" is imho the canon. The can of worms was
	opend by the idea that YOU AS A REFEREE should offer a gas
	giant or a ice rock in an empty hex, when your player group
	missjumps ! There is no rule saying that there has to be a
	mass, just the refree, who dislikes to end a campain because
	of a single dice roll !
- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 09:55:49
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: re : Piracy

>Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 21:07:42 -0400
>From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #528
>
>- ----
>Go further Spinward.....Get out on the real "Fringes" and quote me some more
>figures about how much it will cost to support piracy suppression when the
>pirates are leaving the Imperial borders.

Vilis subsector has Vilis - 8 billion people at TL10.

Jewell subsector has Jewell - 6 billion people at TL12.

Lunion subsector has Strouden (9 billion people at TL14) and Lunion (8
billion people at TL13).

Assume a security budget of Cr 2 per head per annum and we have an annual
budget of 62 billion credits, split evenly between TL14 and TL10. This buys
a lot of piracy suppression, including paying Ihetai and/or Vargr to do a
job on any world outside the frontiers that is supporting piracy.

>
>What I took exception to was the "Sigh. You're not listening" passages
>indicating 1) I'm too stupid to understand; 2) Too lazy to do the research
>to prove my point; or 3) Someone approaching me with a paternal attitude
>like they're dealing with a small child.  Get a grip, I'm 46 years old,
>served in the Army for 20 years on four continents in three "conflicts", got
>an IQ over a fricking egg plant and an attitude of kiss my @$$ whenever
>ANYONE patronizes me.
>

I'm sorry, and I apologise. My tone was insulting, and I should have
written once, thought twice and then edited before hitting send.

>What's the problem of having pirates in certain circumstances under certain
>conditions.  Why is it any one here's job to have to justify anything in our
>game to you or Hans.  The attitude that pervades the posts is what got to
>me, I wasn't even going to post on the subject because it's so inflammatory.

As far as I see it, the conditions are 

(1) No Navy around
(2) a freeport to sell cargos and repair at
(3) low variability in combat capability of similar looking ships
(4) small paper trail for legitimate merchants and cargoes.

>Going back to the original posts (correct me if I'm wrong), but I seem to
>remember this started out that you (generic) wouldn't attack any ship who's
>capitol value was less than yours.  In other words why are you risking a
>400MCr Corsair against a 50 MCr (max value ship and cargo) merchant ship.

Assuming a merchant ship is only worth MCr 50 with cargo is actually an
assumption that I'm willing to drop. For example, imagine a Far Trader
packed to the gills with Fission plants - it's a cargo worth about MCr100,
so the unit is worth closer to MCr 130. 'Vanilla' Traveller cargo values
are too low to fit with the things you can buy in Traveller.

>That was a fair question and I was pondering it and postulating a response
>when the post hit "Show any pirate activities in recent history and I'll
>retract" or something along those lines.  Several people responded with
>insubstantial events even by my standards.  I then went out and did some
>searching thru the web and came up with a number of documented acts of
>piracy that met the criteria all on one web page.  I posted that web address
>and right after that someone else posted another three or four web pages.
>What kind of confirmation do YOU need when someone proves their point?  I
>don't have a problem with piracy being all but non-existent (key words are
>"all but"), that ain't the problem.  I just don't like other people's
>beliefs and ATTITUDES shoved up my rearward dark spot without my permission.
>

If starship captains regularily carry around a megacredit in cash (not
impossible if they are buying specualtive cargoes in 100t lots), then
'spaceborne mugging' via small boats starts to look more reasonable. I
built a 2 dton hi-gee shuttle for around KCr 400 last night at TL14, and
about half of that was the AEMS system.

The other thing I should have dug up was the Sydney Morning Herald article
about the troubles inter-island shipping is going through in Indonesia
right now. One of the free trader captains interviews said that piracy had
become a real problem.

Now, this is more because a previously stable system had dropped into Hard
Times (his bigger complaint was actually extortion by the military on
anti-pirate duty), but it shows that where you have little attention being
paid by the authorities then things which are otherwise objectivly
impossible can happen.

Now, the conditions that normally make piracy unprofitable (being near a
sensor that sees out to the 100 diameter limit, being within the response
range of system defenses, having lots of paperwork around about who went
where and when etc) dont apply in asteroid belts. You have a bunch of
low-paperwork spaceships, many without Jump capability, spread over the
system. You have a reputation for lawlessness, and a possible tendency not
to ask questions if presented with the opportunity to buy a cheap, slightly
damaged Seeker.

I can imagine in these cases institutionilised laziness and (perhaps)
corruption in the Navy, that winks at this and has the attitide that it's
OK, if it doesnt spill outside the Belt.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 10:03:01
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Staying to windward

>From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
>Subject: Re: Subs and Sensors
>
>
>What would be the Traveller equivalent of staying to windward or would
>there be such a thing?  Being outside the 100 diameter limit?  What are
>the tactical advantage points?
>
>Greg

I think the Traveller equivalent would be the intruder force jumping to a
gas giant to refuel, and then dealing with the system forces at the
mainworld. This maximises your chances of successfully retreating, but
gives the defense time to react.

The second equivalent would be jumping so that you still had fuel in your
tanks for an ememrgentcy jump - building jump-3 ships that carry a jump-3
plus a jump-1 'emergency jump reserve'. If forced to retreat, they jump to
a pre-arranged retreat point (possibly in deep space).

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 23:15:54 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Protection of Commerce on Treece, Jae Tellona, Vland

"Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca> wrote in part:
Jae Tellona   
> Jae Tellona   2814 A560565-8  N Ni De              913 Im F9 IV
> Porozlo       2715 A867A74-B    Hi                 201 Im M1 V M9 D   
> Rhylanor      2716 A434934-F  A Hi Cp              810 Im M2 VI       
> Celepina      2913 B434456-9  A Ni                 201 Im M2 VI       
> Passengers per week: 310,000
> Freight per week   : 1,240,000 t
> Revenue per week   : BCr 2.8

Jae Tellona has 900,000 inhabitants, and it's got 310,000 
passengers _per week_???? Even in and out, does that mean 
150,000 tourists land on the planet every week, and another 
150,000 leave? If the average stay is 6 weeks then there 
aren't any actual permanent inhabitants.

If the 900,000 is permanent inhabitants, then its trade 
revenue is 3111Cr per capita per week, or ~160,000 per year 
per person on the planet. I bet that 310,000 is immigration 
to a place with a higher standard of living.

I find your trade numbers implausible, despite having some 
large pop worlds nearby.

Regards

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 10:27:03
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Piracy and comments on Iikaushki class trader

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: Piracy
>
>Is there an assumption being made that the
>Pirate has to make more money at piracy than he would
>be making at legitamate business - and that he needs to
>take ships, not just cargo?
>

Well, if piracy pays worse than legitimate trade and risks you being hung
from the yard arm, why risk piracy ?

>Many pirates of Earth history didn't buy their ships, they stole them.
>Why should a pirate in Traveller be any different? And if the ship
>is stolen, you aren't making bank payments on it - a massive 
>financial advantage over "legitimate" merchants.
>
>Once that bank payment pressure is missing, it becomes much
>easier to make ends meet with just stolen cargos, even though
>you're selling them at stolen goods markdowns.
>

Why not just steal your own ship, taking it to some convenient freeport
(Sword Worlds, Vargr Extents) and selling it instead ?

>Why not take the ship? Too much hassle. If the ship could jump,
>it would have jumped to evade you already. If it can't jump, you
>can't put a prize crew aboard and jump away from the approaching
>system patrol craft. Put a shot across their bow, pick through their
>cargo and valuables, maybe even take a wealthy passenger or two
>for later ransom and scoot - the ship captain will take fewer risks to 
>protect someone else's (probably insured) cargo than he will to 
>protect his ship, and if he expects you to take cargo and send 
>him on his way he'll be more likely to surrender.
>
>Besides, it's far easier to disguise the origin of several tons of 
>(most kinds of) cargo than it is to disguise a starship.

Yes.

>
>A pirate would need to sneak into a system and lurk, though. Those
>ref's with TU's where incoming ships make big light blazes or
>easily detectable grav pulses on jump exit - are there ways a single
>ship can come in-system with less chance of detection? Perhaps a
>fleet would be obvious, but a sub-1000tn vessel might be able to
>pick a location or something that would somewhat mask the 
>jump exit?
>

Part of the problem with this is Traveller sensors easily detect ships out
beyond the 100 diameter limits. Pirating outgoing ships has the problem of
their jumping within the 100 diameter limit rather than trust out pirate's
promise to let them live. Pirating incoming ships has the problem of
reactions from the world you are hanging around.

>A pirate needs good sensors, good acceleration, enough weaponry
>to defeat the average merchant it's designed to take (it simply runs
>from stronger merchants), stealthing capabilities (either through
>actual stealth or deception tactics), cargo capacity sufficient for
>taking home a haul, and enough extra life support to take care
>of boarding parties and prisoners. The best pirate ring will have
>a secret base where prisoners can be held for ransom and stolen
>cargos can be processed (either to remove or forge evidence of
>origin) and moved to a free trader or other ship that would be less
>conspicuous in a normal port.

How much would such a pirate base cost to construct and maintain ?

>
>How do you keep such a pirate base a secret? When YTU has every
>ship arrival from jumpspace easy to detect, it's tough - you need an
>unpatrolled or unoccupied system with a fuel source available. You
>also have to be ready to abandon the base on very short notice - 
>perhaps you keep a stolen type - S scout there to evacuate the
>base personell and most valuable loot.
>

You can fit maybe 12 people and maybe 10 dtons of cargo into a type S. I'd
use a Far Trader myself.

>I imagine a Pirate Captain's worst nightmare - arriving at his clan's
>base and finding Imperial Marines there.

Yes. Especially as ships jumping in will be out of jump fuel.

Hmmm. On the other hand, imagine a group of PCs that have information on
the location of such a base. Rather than informing the Navy, they try and
scrape together a private military force to take it themselves, then
collect the pirate ships as they arrive ... even if you have to give the
captured ships back to their legitimate owners, any actual pirate ships
should be fair game.

>
>
>Walt
>
>Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 12:00:49 -0500
>From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
>Subject: Re: Iikauskhi class Free Trader
>
>Ian Whitchurch wrote:
>
>AEMS: I could be talked into lowering the AEMS to a much lower sensitivity,
>for sure. Maybe a rating 5, rather than 10 (what's the range of that,
>Bruce?).
>But I think that a ship needs one for local traffic avoidance and landings.
>In particular, I would want a ship that has to land in poor visibility to
>have one - it seems to me that PEMS may not be all that useful in such
>situations.
>
>CG: I have my CG at 1G for 2 reasons...
>* This ship is not a airframe, thus it must direct its thrust in the lift
>direction, raher than relying on airfoils for lift. Since the design is
>based on the "standard" thrust-parallel-to-decks plan, the thruster plate
>thrust is not completely available for takeoffs and landings. Thus, 1 G CG.
>* I want the ship to be able to land on just about any planet, including
>ones with gravities nearing 2 G.
>

OK.

>I don't see the problem...you can't put 2 passengers in a small stateroom -
>it isn't allowed. But you can put two in a large. So what's the difference,
>two small state rooms and two passengers, or 1 large stateroom and 2
>passengers. Or am I missing something?

Some designs have claimed you can put 2 mid passrengers in a small
stateroom. I think it should be possible, but you should have lower
passenger costs (1st, 2nd and 3rd class passengers - maybe even 4th class
hot bunking in bunks).

There is still the problem that you get net KCr 6 revenue from a small
stateroom, compared to KCr 2 net from freight.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #534
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 30 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 535



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Informations on Alien Animals
Re: Query regarding Traveller Minatures 15mm
Alleged humor
Re: Query regarding Traveller Minatures 15mm
Taxation
X-boat Sandwiches
Re: Piracy
Re: Piracy
Re: Subs & Sandwiches
Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)
RE: 20th Century piracy
Re: Iikauskhi class Free Trader
Re: Piracy
Re: Subs and Sensors
Re: Gas giant + sun = ?
Re: Turnlengths & physics (was Re: Coordinated Jumps)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 22:17:15 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Informations on Alien Animals

Kian is in BTAS #2 or 3 (I don't remember which)

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 22:19:31 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Query regarding Traveller Minatures 15mm

Let me know if you find any more of them,

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 00:34:33 EDT
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Alleged humor

Douglas Berry allegedly said:

>I don't think anyone has ever complained about anyone's site.. although
>loren did call the Silly Era "alleged" humor..  

I'd characterize that more as "criticism" than "complaint."

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 01:19:26 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Query regarding Traveller Minatures 15mm

At 05:50 PM 5/29/98 -0500, you wrote:
...
>A while back I got some 15mm figures made by Hobby Products GmbH
>
>They were reasonably priced and came in blister packs of 6 figures.
>
>Does anyone know of a shop that still has some of these figures ?
>
>R1101 Adventurers
>R1102 Adventuresses
>R1103 Military
>R1104 Space Marines
>R1105 Droyne/Chirpers
>R1106 Robots
>

Dom - if you locate a good source for these, please post it!  I'm a 15mm
Traveller, too, and chafe at the currently limited selection...



Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 00:53:30 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Taxation

>From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
>Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation
...
>>   What do you think makes for a good accounting basis for Imperial
>> taxation of mega-corps? I realize it's a bit of an odd question,
>> but I'm interested in ideas other than taxing trade (popular) or
>> just levying on member worlds (one of my favourites).
...
>Can the Imperium directly tax private busniesses? I would think not. As I
>see it, it is the individual worlds that set their own taxrate, while the
>subsector duke sets his rate that this world has to pay, while the sector
>duke sets his rate that the subsector has to pay, and the Imperium gets
>their funds from taxing the sector dukes. 

  I would assume that only the absolutely largest corps would be worth 
the Imperiums notice (given the lack of a pervasive bureaucracy), and
that they may only be regulated, not taxed.

  I tend to assume that the Imperiums taxes are collected locally based
on a central (flat rate?) assessment; to do otherwise is to encourage
political tension with an anti-Imperium bias - a Bad Thing. What lower
echelons do to themselves is, naturally (literally in a feudal system),
their own concern.

>This means that there probably will be very large differences in taxation
>levels dependent on the political power of the worlds, and worlds owned by
>mega-corps will be powerful enough to get a really low taxation from the
>subsector duke. This again means that the subsector duke has to raise the
>taxation of other less politically powerful worlds, so that he has the
>money to run his subsector administration AND pay the sector duke the tax
>he is asking for. 

  It does make things fun. It also implies interesting things about the
Colonial fleets, which raises the possibility that core worlds (with
fewer threats and reduced inclination to raise large colonial forces)
may be assessed at a higher weighting to the fringes, which latter are
the glacis of the state, after all.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 00:53:37 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: X-boat Sandwiches

>From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
>Subject: Re: Subs & Sandwiches
...
>Now, look at jump lag and the time freighters spend in port, and give me
>three reasons why your bank will not, as a requirement of your starship
>mortgage, require you to notify your next port of call via the first
>available ship going there.

   Why not have the local company/bank agent do so anyway?

>I like this idea too.  It seems that it would be very reasonable to have
>ships carrying official bulletins in their computers to be downloaded to
>the next StarPort Authority on the ship's arrival insystem.  (I'm
>thinking we had this discussion before).  In that package there would be
>information on all ships with filed flight plans, announced next ports
>of call, anticipated dignitaries' itineraries, etc. for that port of
>call.  It would be date stamped (Imperial time).

  Don't X-boats and couriers do this sort of thing? Presumably also
mail-contracts may handle some electronic work in some jurisdictions
(although unlikely for security reasons, I guess).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 00:53:58 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Piracy
...
>Desires and expectations can often be out of whack with
>reality.  I was watching a show that talked about the
>lifesytle of pirates raiding shiping coming out of the
>Spanish New World.  They looked at a record of what
>they were capturing and there wasn't much gold and
>silver in it.  It was a lot a routine stuff and they
>were far from getting rich.

  Sure. But very few pirates are going to stay illegal (or actually
wait for a safe hit) once they realize that the rest of the time
that means parking on jerk-water worlds roasting wild cattle on
iron grills. Unless of course they're really Space Vikings and are
into chicken stealing.

  Buccaneering sounds romantic, but unless it starts to pay they
might think about different career options.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 01:34:50 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy

Hello,
>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: Piracy
...
>That's why you don't encounter the authorities with this ship - that's what
>your pirate syndicate maintains cargo transfer points and legal-looking
>free traders for. As I mentioned earlier, it's much harder if the way
>jump exit works IYTU makes it impossible to jump into a system 
>without being detected. 

  What if the authorities or fate disagree? If ID'ing a ship is quite
hard (see current telescope resolution thread) then how do you know
that new arrival isn't heavily armed or a patrol boat? Such a ship
(expensive, purpose built?) can't function except as a hostile warship;
no conventional revenue stream is possible, nor is "swim with the fishes"
intrusion survivable.

  A pirate syndicate starts to imply massive capitalization and an
impressive organization. How this would establish itself without the
assistance of an outside party (thus leaving the definition of piracy
behind and becoming commerce raiders) is difficult to see.

  Such events may occur very rarely, but it lacks credibility as
the common model for piracy.

>As for IDing a better-armed merchant - if it looks like a 400-dtn 
>Fat Trader, it probably is a 400-dtn Fat Trader. The vast majority
>of these will have armament you can handle - if you run into an
>upgunned version, you break off and try to break system patrol
>detection - if you can't, you jump. If you can't jump, you make 
>interesting copy for the local newsfaxes. The life of a pirate is 
>short.

  What sort of armament (well, general performance and load-out) are
you assuming for your pirate ship?

...
>  Pirate rings and bases (substantial ones, anyway) become very
>questionable; economics again, and encounter probabilities. They've
>got one thing only (crime) to make money at, their mobility (_if_
>needed) is sharply reduced, and a single patrol ship vs pirate
>(or infiltrator/turncoat) can now plug the entire operation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Several easily-abandoned bases instead of one big one, then - and many
>crime rings live in fear of one infiltrator/turncoat, even today. How much
>damage have single informers done to the American mafia recently?

  My point would be that large organizations are ultimately less economic
and more vulnerable. In addition they're much more likely to trigger a
response that will almost guarantee their liquidation.

  Part of the problem is that the extremely burdensome cost of bases
is one of the main points against widespread use of SDB's, fighters,
or even patrol ships against piracy. Whether this is so is subject
to debate. Presumably these bases (disposable or not) are not huge
capital or operations outlays.

>Piracy + kidnap ransom + smuggling + extortion - you can make a pretty
>good living if you'r creative and ruthless enough.

  Why not sell the first ship you capture and avoid the stress? I'm
assuming rational/economic behaviour here; I frankly doubt that a 
band of psychopaths will last very long.

>Steve again
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>  IMO, the most survivable source of pirate activity is the casual;
>a (canonically) armed trader, who comes across a great opportunity
>when he's desperate (or frankly, he's a scumbag) and takes the easy
>way out. Maybe he's sure he didn't leave a trail, maybe they run for
>the border. Maybe something goes wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>These would exist anyway - Merchant Prince indicates that
>anyone on a Free Trader will be an occaisional pirate/smuggler/etc.
>I think that the "Pirate/Corsair" career in MT/TNE/CotI indicates
>organized pirate groups that make a habit of it.

  As much fun as they might be, it gets very strange if rule system
artifacts start being assigned as background facts - whether the TCS
Cr 500 per capita naval budget or the suggestion that ~17% of the
population of the Imperium were ex-Scouts.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 01:35:00 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Subs & Sandwiches

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Subs & Sandwiches
>
>Fri, 29 May 1998 09:37:55 -0400, Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
>> Now, look at jump lag and the time freighters spend in port, and give me
>> three reasons why your bank will not, as a requirement of your starship
>> mortgage, require you to notify your next port of call via the first
>> available ship going there.
>
>Because merchants don't like having to wait a week because
>there isn't a ship going to where they want to go?  Or loose
>out on a cargo that wants to be shipped today?  So they
>just go to a competator and pay slightly higher insurance
>rates?  Because the bank doesn't like to have spend a lot
>of money making sure that the ships they finance are following
>this provision?

 i) That presumes a very low traffic pattern; as previously stated,
this is by defintion a low probability concern.
ii) So, you take the cargo and run. It happens. I guess you're getting
paid enough to make up for not being able to carry passengers.
iii) Again, if insurance rates are only slightly higher then it
effectively proves that the risk of loss is quite minimal.
iv) sending a letter (e-mail?) to the next system is expensive?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 02:02:39 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)
...
>>   Here's a potential problem with the "piracy at minor irritant levels"
>> thesis; under this regime any group of PC's/seedy characters/Vargr
>> could quite likely go into business for themselves quite successfully,
>> seamlessly switching back and forth between smuggling, piracy, slavery,
>> hijacking, organ-legging, and kidnapping with little chance of being caught
>> in the short run.
>
>The point of piracy as a minor irritant is that chances
>of getting caught will be enough to deter enough people
>from the crime that is will not happen very often.  Thus
>I would diagree with "little chance of getting caught".

  My estimate of the potential gains compared to the minimal risks
presented by your hypothetical security regime is that the level
of piracy (etc.) it allows will be vastly above the "irritant"
level. This may work for some, but unless I've fundamentally erred
in assessing what I've read here, I couldn't apply this material to
my own game without serious credibility/realism problems. YMMV.

...
>>   I suppose there's no practical way of figuring out what ship is
>> supposed to be what? If no electronic device is reasonably tamper
>> resistant, then banks clear account info very slowly, and electronic
>> account carrying becomes impossible.
>
>No _sure_ way.  If a ship doesn't have a good explination,
>or claims to be from Regina, but the patrol ships just
>came from there and it is clear the captain has not
>idea what just happened there, etc. they might get
>caught, they make a mistake when they report the
>ship's ID (ships made in 994 all had _9_ digit
>IDs) and other forgery type mistakes.  I would just
>treat is as a contest between the interrogator and
>the interrogatee.

  The above sounds like an impossible situation for law enforcement
units to accomplish anything. No records are cross-checked, no black
boxes exist to be inspected occasionally, ship licensing is minimal,
personnel, manifests, and passenger registers are not maintained or
cross-checked. I'm surprised that any bank would loan money to any
private individual(s) to throw away money on what is after all a 
getaway car.

...
>> be the case. Also, doesn't that simply create an enormous import
>> market for illegal nukes? How is nuke licensing handled, or is
>> civilian possession banned?
>
>Yeah, I'm guessing that ships transiting from outside
>Imperium space are treated differently.  I haven't
>thought much about boarder restrictions, but travelling
>to a world within Jump-6 of the border might be different.

  It's sort of worse than that, because an organization operating
from outside the Imperium (OK, not pirates per se, but a clear
threat to security) can simply pump the stuff through a sanitized
cordon by pre-positioning fuel dumps for couriers to run to while
hopping in a further stage; J-3 scouts being fed by Type A/A2 ships
could easily penetrate a sector, given the value of all the goodies
that can be packed into a couple of hundred cubic meters.

>Anyway, I'm not saying that stopping nukes at the source
>is easy, it just that searching every ship in a way
>that you can reasonably expect to find them is almost
>impossible and still doesn't stop nukes from being
>used on the worlds where they were made.

  The Imperium doesn't have the ability to stop you from nuking
yourself (in planetary terms). The winner/survivor will discover
that the Imperium does, however, specialize in _making you regret_
_having done so_.

  Finding nukes on ships crossing Imperial space is practical.
Nuclear dampers, rad counters, and (if allowed) deep radar all
have applications. Inspecting physically can lead to neat things
like finding missiles w/o warheads, at which point you strip the
ship down to the bulkheads or simply play musical chairs.

  Inspections (cursory/external or on-site) can be done at starports,
or when boarded for whatever reason. From the internal security POV,
it is not necessary to check all ships at all times. It is merely
needful to check (~) all ships once in a while - any ship whose
lifestyle is fundamentally illegal is thus subject to eventual serious
risk of detention/confiscation/really short exchange of fire.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 10:08:01 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: RE: 20th Century piracy

skribe <skribe@amber.com.au> wrote:

>On 28-May-98 Peter H. Brenton wrote:
>> Of course, if those Canucks have nothing better to do with their subs than
>> enforce fishing treaties, I'd say we live in pretty peaceful times.
>
>Its about all you can do with an O-boat these days.  While they're a very
>nice sub, and awfully quiet, they are a little long in the tooth.  Our last
>one gets decommed next month, I believe, leaving us with 4 new Collins boats,
>none of which have their firecontrol software operating properly.

Off topic - did the Canadians ever buy the Upholders off the RN?

>To keep this post on topic (almost), how many of you envision `space warfare'
> to be rather like sub warfare, except whereas subs try to be silent,
>spacecraft try to remain unseen and to keep their energy emissions low?  If
>subs are the silent service, does this mean the Imperial Navy is the invisible
>service? ;)

I think the analogy to a naval vessel is good, althouh maybe not a sub.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 23:16:04 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Iikauskhi class Free Trader

From:           	"Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
To:             	"TML" <Traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject:        	Re: Iikauskhi class Free Trader
Date sent:      	Fri, 29 May 1998 12:00:49 -0500
Send reply to:  	traveller@MPGN.COM

> AEMS: I could be talked into lowering the AEMS to a much lower sensitivity,
> for sure. Maybe a rating 5, rather than 10 (what's the range of that,
> Bruce?).
> But I think that a ship needs one for local traffic avoidance and landings.
> In particular, I would want a ship that has to land in poor visibility to
> have one - it seems to me that PEMS may not be all that useful in such
> situations.

I'd imagine that some kind of active sensor is required for navigation.

> CG: I have my CG at 1G for 2 reasons...
> * This ship is not a airframe, thus it must direct its thrust in the lift
> direction, raher than relying on airfoils for lift. Since the design is
> based on the "standard" thrust-parallel-to-decks plan, the thruster plate
> thrust is not completely available for takeoffs and landings. Thus, 1 G CG.
> * I want the ship to be able to land on just about any planet, including
> ones with gravities nearing 2 G.

I've been thinking about this one, why are ships that use thrusters also 
equipped with CG? I think the answer is in how they work. A CG drive works by 
pushing against the local gravity well. Thus a 1g CG drive will always produce 1 
local g of thrust, if the local gravity is 2 standard g's then the 1g CG drive will 
produce 2g's of thrust, if the local gravity is 0.2g then the 1g CG will produce 
0.2g's of thrust. However a Thruster works against the underlying gravity of the 
universe; thus a 1g Thruster will always produce 1 standard g of thrust 
regardless of the local gravity. Therefore, ships which lack lifting surfaces (non-
airframes) have CG in order to ensure that they can land in any gravity well. An 
airframe hull OTOH generates lift in an atmosphere and therefore can go 
without the CG.

> >Note that the economics rules are broken for small staterooms vis a vis
> >cargo and low berths - a mid passenger in a small stateroom creates net KCr
> >6 revenue from 2 dtons, as compared to net KCr 2 from freight or net KCr
> >1.8 from low berths. Allowing 2 middle passengers or a high passenger in a
> >small stateroom makes the differential even worse.

> I don't see the problem...you can't put 2 passengers in a small stateroom -
> it isn't allowed. But you can put two in a large. So what's the difference,
> two small state rooms and two passengers, or 1 large stateroom and 2
> passengers. Or am I missing something?

I've always ruled that any paying passenger (high or middle) will only travel in a 
large stateroom except in exceptional circumstances.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++++ su+ ge

************************************************************
Of course its safe, I made it myself
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 23:18:40 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Piracy

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote in part
> Obviously, the pirates want to make a (good) living, and probably
> retire before the odds catch up with them.

That may be true, but consider, isn't it also true of bank 
robbers?  

Bank robbers get caught a lot, on average they don't make a 
lot of money, and a few of them end up dead. Rationally 
you'd expect that they'd give it up as a bad scheme, right? 
Then why are there still bank robbers?

Some theories-
i) Bad evaluation of risk. The Potential criminal doesn't 
believe it to be as dangerous as it is.

ii) Bad evaluation of reward, the potential criminal 
believes that there is more money to be made than there 
actually is.

iii) An inability to make money legally. Perhaps the 
potential criminal is incompetant, or can't make the 
payments and skips, and thus can't get legal cargos, and 
has to stop using highly documented worlds. Perhaps they 
have expensive habits, or they don't know how to get a job 
as anything else. Maybe they've been working their butts 
off and are still broke paying a mortgage, three sets of 
alimony, and the repo man is trying to take back the car - 
they Need Money Now, and they don't have a legal way of 
getting it.

Hannibal Lector aside, there aren't a lot of smart 
criminals out there, and there are a _lot_ of dumb ones. 

Now consider that there is a lot of time and money put into 
catching or stopping bank robbers. Whole industries of Bank 
guards. The police put a lot of time into catching them. 
With modern forensics they can't afford to leave even the 
slightest clue. Yet they still try, they still get to take 
some money, and some of them do get away. Surely it is more 
than an irritation, otherwise there wouldn't be all that 
money paid to people to stand around banks looking like 
guards, yet it hasn't been completely shut down yet...

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 05:30:38 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Subs and Sensors

In mail you write:

> Ian Whitchurch wrote:
>
>> Essentially, it gets to be like Age of Sail combat - ships either 
>> consent to combat, or are trapped without fuel and forced to fight 
>> (the historical analogy is trapped against a coastline eg Trafalger).
>>
>
> Ian:  Thanks for this analogy.  I was missing this in my thinking, and
> therefore didn't like it.  That makes perfect sense to me, particularly
> after having just finished the Hornblower series again.  If you can
> detect an enemy, and he is stronger, you can try to escape, or stay out
> of range either until reinforcements arrive or until you can jump to
> safety.
>
> What would be the Traveller equivalent of staying to windward or would
> there be such a thing?  Being outside the 100 diameter limit?  What are
> the tactical advantage points?

Ok, being higher in a gravity well is an advantage. Especially at TLs
where you are using reaction drives. Consider the case of two ships
equal in all ways, but one is in a far orbit, the other is in a close
orbit. The planet blocks more of your sensors, you have to fire
"uphill" (especially bad for missiles). And since your orbit moves you
around the planet faster, it's harder to keep distant objects under
observation. 

Velocity (or lack thereof) relative to the other ship, or some
important place (like the 100 diameter limit). A ship moving quickly
towards the 100 diameter limit (if trying to escape by jumping) or
towards the port, will have an advantage over a ship that's at rest. At
if the would-be attacker is moving in the opposite direction, it's even
worse. 

How close your vectors match is *far* more important than range, as
long as you are going to be in range at all. Heck, if you are heading
at the jump point fast enough, and the attacker is going in some other
direction, it's not at all unlikely that you can *coast* to it before
he can an intercept. 

If you don't have a copy of Mayday, get one. Or a copy of the CT rules.
Play with vector movement for a while and you'll begin to get the idea.
Intercepting somebody in space is *hard*. Best case for the attacker is
to be moving in the same general direction at a similar velocity (too
fast means you shoot past and have to backtrack).

Which is why pilots get *real* suspicious of folks on "matching"
courses, given how much space there is available. Even if you are both
going to jump to the same system, you can still do just fine from
points quite a ways apart. 

The thing that always surprises beginners is that it does you no good
to shoot up a ship if you can't rendevous with it to get the cargo off.
Whereas the defender merely has to keep you from rendevousing with him
until he gets under cover or can jump. And *he* doesn't care if he
blows you into little pieces. 

Obviously, in warfare, both sides can do the "blowing into little
pieces" bit so matching courses aren't quite as important. They're
still fairly important though, as otherwise combat turns into a series
of passes at high speed, followed by hours of manuevering to get on an
intercept course again. 

(I really *have* to write that space flight simulator)
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 06:16:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Gas giant + sun = ?

In mail you write:

> Assumptions:
>
> 1. you have a jump-capable multi-Jupiter-sized gas giant (how is
> irrelevant)
> 2. said gas giant exits jump with zero vector relative to star.
> 3. you actually want to do this.
>
> Questions:
>
> For various star types
>
> a. what formula will give, based on distance in solar diameters, the
> length of time for the gas giant to fall into the sun.

It's a "simple" orbit calculation. Pretend for a moment that both the
star and the GG are dimensiomless points, but have all their mass.
Obviously they'd fall towards each other along a straight line. And
since the star is so much more massive, it won't move much.

So from the point of view of the star , the GG would move
towards it in a straight line. But once it gets there it's moving
really fast (remember we are pretending that they are point masses).
So it whips around the point and winds up going back the way it came.
And it slows as it goes until it comes to a stop at the point it
strated. And the cycle repeats. 

Ok, So the "natural orbit" for the GG is a straight line from the
starting point to the center of the star. This is the limiting case of
an elliptical orbit. It's an "ellipse" with an eccentricity of 1
(IIRC). 

The rule for elliptical orbits is that the period is determined by the
length of the semimajor axis. In this case, that's half the distance
between the centers of the objects. And the GG only gets to complete
half an orbit (it falls in, but not back out). 

So the time to impact is a bit less than the time a planet at half the
distance takes to complete half an orbit. (really!). This depends on
the combined mass of the bodies, but the GG's mass is gonna be fairly
insignificant. 

T=pi/(Sqrt(8*G*M/r^3))

M= mass of star and GG in kg
G= 6.673e-11 N m^2/kg^2 (7e-11) -- Newton's Gravitational Constant
r= starting distance between centers in meters
T= time in seconds

The velocity at any point is the stellar escape velocity at the point
the GG started, minus the stellar escape velocity at the current
distance. 

 V = sqrt(2*M*G/r)-sqrt(2*M*G/d)

M= mass of star and GG in kg
G= 6.673e-11 N m^2/kg^2 (7e-11) -- Newton's Gravitational Constant
r= starting distance between centers in meters
d= current distance in meters

> b. what will happen when it does.

Interesting question. The answer would likely be worth a Nobel prize.

You are going to be adding the kinetic energy of the GG to the star.
That's a lot, stars are pretty energetic to start with.

Unless it's a very small star, you won't be adding a lot of mass to it.
Stars are *big*.

Long term, the star would be brighter. And it might even wind up a
periodic variable over the shorter term.

The really short term (say up to a century after the collision) is the
hard part. 

But the slug of plasma that used to be the GG is going to penetrate a
ways. How far depends on details of stellar interiors that I dobn't
know (and that I'd be at least a bit surprised if *anyone* has more
than guesses about). It may result in a moderate amount of mixing of
layers that don't ordinarily mix (we aren't sure where convection
occurs inside stars and where it doesn't). 

It's possible that the mixing could temporaily shut down the fusion
reactions at the core of the star (no big deal, it takes the energy
decades to work its way out). They'd resume after things settled down.

It's also possible (but I don't think it's likely) that if the star a
red giant sufficiently far along, you'd trigger a supernova early. But
by the time a star is that old, it's already done a number on the
planets that might have been habitable when it was younger and the
expansion happens way to fast for life to develop on the newly warm
planets. So any casualties would have to be a base on a not very
habitable planet.

I'd guess that we'd get some *massive* flare activity, regardless of the
star type. But that's just a guess. And you *definitely* wouldn't want
to be anywhere near the star on the side that got hit. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 05:55:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Turnlengths & physics (was Re: Coordinated Jumps)

In mail you write:

> Actually try both versions within a computer program to see the
> differances. (check out http://www.teazle.com and the SpaceShuttle minigame
> for my version of a thrusting ship in a gravity field)

For those of us who don't read Swedish, could you be a bit more
specific? 

I tried to find it and got lost. I'm using Lynx, a text-mode browser
which doesn't help.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #535
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 30 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 536



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Piracy
Re: Iikauskhi class Free Trader
Re: Jae Tellona's Starport's Throughput
Re: Jae Tellona (JT) and Treece (TR) Discussion
Re: Sensor range: New question
Re: Plot Device Wanted
AUCTION: Classic Traveller (Dark Nebula, Books 4/5/6/7/8, Gamelords) UPDATE
Re: Piracy
Re: Piracy
Piracy (it's ba-a-a-a-ack)
Informations on Alien Animals
Website Questions
Re: Rudeness on the TML
Re: Piracy
Gridlore pages updated
Re: Piracy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 04:58:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Piracy

In mail you write:

> Is there an assumption being made that the
> Pirate has to make more money at piracy than he would
> be making at legitamate business - and that he needs to
> take ships, not just cargo?
>
> Many pirates of Earth history didn't buy their ships, they stole them.
> Why should a pirate in Traveller be any different? And if the ship
> is stolen, you aren't making bank payments on it - a massive 
> financial advantage over "legitimate" merchants.
>
> Once that bank payment pressure is missing, it becomes much
> easier to make ends meet with just stolen cargos, even though
> you're selling them at stolen goods markdowns.
>
> Why not take the ship? Too much hassle. If the ship could jump,
> it would have jumped to evade you already. If it can't jump, you
> can't put a prize crew aboard and jump away from the approaching
> system patrol craft. Put a shot across their bow, pick through their
> cargo and valuables, maybe even take a wealthy passenger or two
> for later ransom and scoot - the ship captain will take fewer risks to 
> protect someone else's (probably insured) cargo than he will to 
> protect his ship, and if he expects you to take cargo and send 
> him on his way he'll be more likely to surrender.

On the other hand, if approaching system patrol craft are a problem,
then you aren't likely to be able to disable the merhant quickly enough
*anyway*. Not unless you've got some way f getting *really* close
un-noticed. 

If an approaching patrol *isn't* a problem, then you are interested in
the ship if it's at all easy to repair. It gives you more ships to work
with. 

> Besides, it's far easier to disguise the origin of several tons of 
> (most kinds of) cargo than it is to disguise a starship.

Which leads to the *big* problem with being a pirate. Annual
maintenance. In the days of sail, the ship'screw could do any
maintenance needed short of a major catastrophe. And they could do it
on their own. At worst they needed to lay in a supply of lumber at
their base.

But what's a pirate in the Imperium going to do? He not only needs to
be able to sell his cargoes, he needs to be able to buy ordinance, and
get battle damage repaired. And the annual maintenance is a killer.
Because as you note, he's likely to be *known* by then. So he needs a
Class B port that doesn't *care* that he's a pirate. 

That's why folks suggest privateers. They can just visit a port of the
government that commisioned them.

> A pirate would need to sneak into a system and lurk, though. Those
> ref's with TU's where incoming ships make big light blazes or
> easily detectable grav pulses on jump exit - are there ways a single
> ship can come in-system with less chance of detection? Perhaps a
> fleet would be obvious, but a sub-1000tn vessel might be able to
> pick a location or something that would somewhat mask the 
> jump exit?

Actually, since we've already established that it's best to avoid
systems with a decent patrol, it's time to start looking for places
that won't have a patrol, but might have good cargoes slipping thru. 

To use Norton's Solar Queen stories as an example, say a Free Trader
has a deal with the natives on a planet for some rare plant or maybe
some sort of gemstones. It doesn't do *you* any good to land there and
try to trade, they won't deal with you. And a raid only works if you
can find where they store the stuff between visits by the trader. You
can't try to find some yourself because you don't know where to find
it. So you lie in wait for the trader. Either you catch him on the
ground after the trade goods are out of hiding, or you try to catch him
soon after takeoff. So you find a good hiding place on the planet (or
maybe a moon) and wait with your emissions as low as you can manage.

There are other similar scenarios. The key to this kind of thing is
that you are operating in a system where the natives don't have much
(if any) space presence (low TL) and where there's a valuable
commodity, but there's also a reason for limited trade. So hijaacking a
ship is possible, and it's worthwhile. 

There ought to be a *lot* of planets like this on the fringes of an
expanding empire. Close enough to trade with, but still outside the
borders. And producing something exotic or *really* valuable.

Hell, you want to know what one of the most expensive *legal* materials
is? Saffron. Check the price at your store. It's sold by the *gram*. 

Picture somebody with a deal for some similar spice. It's something
that takes a lot of work to obtain or concentrate (saffron is the
*pollen* of a plant). And it's valuable. A shipload of it could let you
retire. Even just one cargo pod of it would be lots of money.

> How do you keep such a pirate base a secret? When YTU has every
> ship arrival from jumpspace easy to detect, it's tough - you need an
> unpatrolled or unoccupied system with a fuel source available. You
> also have to be ready to abandon the base on very short notice - 
> perhaps you keep a stolen type - S scout there to evacuate the
> base personell and most valuable loot.

Or you need a port that doesn't care that you are a pirate (several
such existed during the height of piracy in the age of sail) or one
that considers you to be on "their" side (ie a privateer).

Heinlein's "Citizen of the Galaxy" has some good lessons on this buried
in it. He realized just what it'd take to get piracy to work in a
starfaring civilization. And you find out as part of the story's
background unfolds. 

> I imagine a Pirate Captain's worst nightmare - arriving at his clan's
> base and finding Imperial Marines there.

Unless he's a privateer for the Imperium and they are just inspecting
to make sure that he hasn't violated the terms of his letters of marque
and reprisal. (Of course, that *could* be a nightmare too. :-)

For that matter, he's got to worry about his "friends" deciding that
he's an easier mark than a merchie.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 16:09:06 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Iikauskhi class Free Trader

On Sat, 30 May 1998, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

> > AEMS: I could be talked into lowering the AEMS to a much lower sensitivity,
> > for sure. Maybe a rating 5, rather than 10 (what's the range of that,
> > Bruce?).
> > But I think that a ship needs one for local traffic avoidance and landings.
> > In particular, I would want a ship that has to land in poor visibility to
> > have one - it seems to me that PEMS may not be all that useful in such
> > situations.
> 
> I'd imagine that some kind of active sensor is required for navigation.

Are you talking of space navigation or planetary navigation. I don't see
why you need active sensors for space navigation, and for planetary
navigation these sensors are included in the controls and
terrain-following equipment (if I remeber FF&S right :-) 

> I've been thinking about this one, why are ships that use thrusters also 
> equipped with CG? I think the answer is in how they work. A CG drive works by 
> pushing against the local gravity well. Thus a 1g CG drive will always produce 1 
> local g of thrust, if the local gravity is 2 standard g's then the 1g CG drive will 
> produce 2g's of thrust, if the local gravity is 0.2g then the 1g CG will produce 
> 0.2g's of thrust. However a Thruster works against the underlying gravity of the 
> universe; thus a 1g Thruster will always produce 1 standard g of thrust 
> regardless of the local gravity. Therefore, ships which lack lifting surfaces (non-
> airframes) have CG in order to ensure that they can land in any gravity well. An 
> airframe hull OTOH generates lift in an atmosphere and therefore can go 
> without the CG.

Is this from FF&S or your take on CG. I guess this is something that
should be discussed, as I really see it different. But then again I like
CG to really be contra grav, not providing thrust at all, but cutting the
"gravitons" from interacting between the to masses, and therefor cutting
the gravitational pull. A 1G CG will therefor keep 1G of gravitons from
interacting, while a 2G CG will keep away 2Gs worth of gravitastion (all
well inside gravityweels that is.  

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 16:22:02 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Jae Tellona's Starport's Throughput

On Fri, 29 May 1998, Douglas Glatz wrote:

> Robert Eaglestone wrote: So, each week, D/FW passes its ENTIRE
> population count in passengers
> 
> > through its airport.  Needless to say, D/FW's economy IS based on its
> > commerce.
> 
> Respectfully, I must disagree.
> 
> I think a more accurate representation would be a seaport in the late
> 1800's or early 1900's, when commerce depended on ship traffic to flow.
> This would more accurately simulate not only the cost of travel - High
> or Mid passage on a starship represents a considerable sum as opposed to
> an airline ticket which is fairly inexpensive.  It also relates to the
> relative inconvience of travel, when such travel takes days or weeks,
> not hours.

This is something I have been thinking of. While an average citizen of the
Imperium makes about the same in a year as it cost for a ticket, how many
have considerable better income than the average. Using real world numbers
I think the average income on Earth is about 10000$, probably much lower,
and still there is certainly nearly a billion people that make much, much
more than that. Relating this to Traveller I really think that startravel
in the Imperium is like airtravel today for the people of relativly
wealthy and high-tech worlds.


> What I'm trying to point out is that you are comparing Apples to
> Oranges.  Using air traffic, because it is the highest TL we have
> available, is not an accurate representation.  Especially when you
> consider that travel costs in a starship represent months or years of
> income for the average individual, when air traffic represents weeks, or
> even hours of income.

But what is an average individual. In the world today an average income
person is very poor compared to most Europeans or Americans. On an average
the GDP per citizen in China is 2800$ which means that for one fifth of
the world an airline thicket is half their purchase power in a year.
For India the number is 1600$ per capita, which means that overall there
is at least half of the citizens on earth for whom you statement is
incorrect. Realate this to Traveller and there will be a large amount of
people that has incomes significantly over the 8.000Cr needed for
startravel.  


> 
> douglas
> 
> 
> --
> E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
> http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
> IMTU tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
> Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
> 
> 
> 
> 

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 08:40:57 -0600
From: "Eric T. or Maryann C. Holmes" <holmberg@thuntek.net>
Subject: Re: Jae Tellona (JT) and Treece (TR) Discussion

All:

I've been sitting on my haunches while reading this discussion of the
commerce capabilities of these two worlds.  

I had some comments when the discussion of developing economics based upon
starport activities but I never wrote them down and I now find that I just
have to put my two credits worth in.

Robert Eaglestone guesstimated and listed the weekly passenger  (pax) flow
of DFW as 3.5E6 pax.  No, its closer to one tenth that . Based on FAA 1993
data, the annual enplanements, thats the number of people getting on an
aircraft, was 23,656,000  (
http://www.bts.gov/NTL/data/tables/chap04/tab4-11/)  This works out to be
approx 474,000 per week.  I think your pax flow for your commerce
calculations should be divided by a factor 50 to 100.  Just so you have a
rough idea of the enplanements in the US, there were 468 million for 1993,
giving DFW five percent of the overall enplanement activity.

While we are on the subject of flow, all freight listed for airports is in
pounds.  The 1993 US national annual for cargo is 6.4 million pounds and
the annual for mail is 1.8 million pounds.  This is not a lot of air cargo
since it is EXPENSIVE to move cargo.  And remember, aircrews calculate and
balance weight based upon pounds, therefore the consistency.  I'd like to
see what the railroad moves in cargo and what the major freight carriers
move.  Any one a transportation expert or know a source?

Now let's talk about defense squadrons.  First, what milieu are we
developing?  If we look at M10 - M11, specifically the Fifth Frontier War
(FFW), JT does not have any assigned system defense squadrons.  TR has five
SDBs assigned.  Now these facts may be apocripahl and apply only to the FFW
game, but could it be that the Imperial Navy saw fit to reassign JT's SDB
squadrons?  Or could they have been eliminated by outside forces?  Or did
JT decide to sink its credits into its own colonial squadron?  If you look
at FFW, none of this seems apparent.  So it could be that JT's credits were
transferred to the IN and used there.  Hmm, more questions are sure to
surface.

A great discussion.  Thanks for leeting me drop my two credits in.

Eric
Eric T. Holmes
holmberg@thuntek.net
6pm to Midnight Mountain Time

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 07:13:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Sensor range: New question

In mail you write:

> I saw the discussion before and someone had said that a planet was in
> a 2 parasec sensor range. What about ships? I looked through T4 and
> CT and all's I could find was in the Traveller Book a reference to
> ships being detectable within systems only...less than 1 AU.....That
> doesn't make sense to what's been discussed here. Is the range for
> ship detection longer???

Yes. The old books *grossly* underestimate how well *current* sensors
work. If we had current real world sensor gear in use *above* the
atmosphere, we'd be able to detect ships father than an AU away. 

The old books also grossly underestimate the range of radios. A 5 watt
CB rig is easily good for 20km, and if skip is acting up, can get clear
connections on another continent while not being heard at all 50 km
away. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 06:56:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Plot Device Wanted

In mail you write:

> So, how can a large explosion be produced, preferably destroying the
> ship and a decent chunk of the highport, which will still look like an
> accident? Can a fusion plant be made to explode somehow? Or is it
> going to have be a dodgy cargo that's reposonsible? Possibly a 'small'
> explosion is more likely that triggers a volatile cargo?

Forget the fusion plant. All that hardware is required to keep the
"flame" from *going out*. 

Ships use enormous quantities of LH2. And hydrogen mixed with air in
the right proportions *will* explode. That's the simplest. Think coal
mine or grain elevator explosion or a gas main explosion. Of course
it's much easier to get proportions where the hydrogen just burns. But
the same goes for gas leaks.

On the downside, *because* of this, all ships and highports (and
downports where the port isn't "open air") will have sensors all over
the place monitoring for hydrogen leaks. And it is a *bitch* because
the gas can leak right *through* some metals, and makes many metals
brittle. The cold of LH2 also tend to be hard on materials. 

If the ship managed to fill with the right mix of oxygen and hydrogen,
it'd definitely make a bang. Probably total the ship unless hulls are a
lot stronger than I think.

Heck, that could be how the "bomb" was intended to work in the first
place. So if the ship is somewhat behind on maintaining things, the
port might write it off as a alarm system failure on the ship (and try
to sue the socks off the captain!).

The blast would make a mess of the immediately adjacent portion of the
highport, and pieces of the ship would cause punctures all over the
place.  But without an atmosphere, you don't get the blast wave that
carried damage large distances. Details depend on how you lay out the
highport.


Gas explosions are powerful. When I was a kid, a gas leak destroyed a
Safeway store in Spokane. We lived *miles* away and though someone had
thrown something big at the house (being near Halloween, we thought it
might have been a pumpkin). Later we found out what had happened. We
were in the blast *shadow* of a hill. I can only imagine what it was
like below the hill. 

We went to look the next day. The store was a big hole in the ground.
And there were trucks from glass companies all over the place. It'd
broken windows for something like a mile.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 08:16:59 -0700
From: Joel Pratt <jpratt@ucla.edu>
Subject: AUCTION: Classic Traveller (Dark Nebula, Books 4/5/6/7/8, Gamelords) UPDATE

Classic Traveller Auction (Fourth Update)

Rules:
1) Email all bids to jpratt@ucla.edu
2) Purchaser pays all shipping charges.
3) American funds only, please, as check or money order.
4) Items will be held until check clears.
5) Bidding will continue until price stops rising. Going/Goingx2/Gone.
6) Email me (jpratt@ucla.edu) if you have any questions.
7) Auction will be posted to TML only twice (i.e. this is final list update)
8) Thanks for looking.


BOOK 1/2/3 (In Black Box)
Books are Second Edition and in Very Good Condition
Box is badly scuffed, with one wrecked corner
Minimum Bid: $20

BOOK 4 - Mercenary
Excellent Condition
Minimum Bid: $10
Current Bid: $10 Chemist (GOINGx2)
(error in previous update)

BOOK 5 - High Guard (revised & retypeset edition)
Good Condition (cover scuffed, minor pencil marks, some yellowing/age)
Minimum Bid: $10

BOOK 6 - Scouts
Very Good Condition
Minimum Bid: $10
Current Bid: $15 Jeff (GOING)

BOOK 7 - Merchant Prince
Excellent Condition
Minimum Bid: $10
Current Bid: $26 Harvester

BOOK 8 - Robots
Excellent Condition
Minimum Bid: $10
Current Bid: $20 William

LEE'S GUIDE TO INTERSTELLAR ADVENTURE (Vol. 1)
Gamelords, Ltd.
(Rare!)
Excellent Condition
Minimum Bid: $10
Current Bid: $10 Joseph (GOING)

A PILOT'S GUIDE TO THE DREXILTHAR SUBSECTOR
Gamelords, Ltd.
(Rare - by J. Andrew Keith)
Excellent Condition
Minimum Bid: $10
Current Bid: $10 Joseph (GOING)

DARK NEBULA (Series 120 Boardgame)
Mint (unpunched components, box shows some wear at corners)
Minimum Bid: $20
Current Bid: $26 Talastar


- --Joel Pratt
jpratt@ucla.edu

"Bill Clinton does not have the moral fiber to be a mass murderer."
 -- Nobel Peace Prize recipient Dr. Henry Kissinger, Spring 1997

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 17:36:16 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Piracy

On Sat, 30 May 1998, Steven Hudson wrote:

> >From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
> >Subject: Re: Piracy
> ...
> >Desires and expectations can often be out of whack with
> >reality.  I was watching a show that talked about the
> >lifesytle of pirates raiding shiping coming out of the
> >Spanish New World.  They looked at a record of what
> >they were capturing and there wasn't much gold and
> >silver in it.  It was a lot a routine stuff and they
> >were far from getting rich.
> 
>   Sure. But very few pirates are going to stay illegal (or actually
> wait for a safe hit) once they realize that the rest of the time
> that means parking on jerk-water worlds roasting wild cattle on
> iron grills. Unless of course they're really Space Vikings and are
> into chicken stealing.
> 
>   Buccaneering sounds romantic, but unless it starts to pay they
> might think about different career options.
> 

Unless they of course can't do that, because of earlier ventures.
Merchants that went bankrupt and owe large amounts of money for eksample.
Or convicts escaped from a prison world. 

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 17:50:10 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Piracy

On Sat, 30 May 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> On the other hand, if approaching system patrol craft are a problem,
> then you aren't likely to be able to disable the merhant quickly enough
> *anyway*. Not unless you've got some way f getting *really* close
> un-noticed. 
> 
> If an approaching patrol *isn't* a problem, then you are interested in
> the ship if it's at all easy to repair. It gives you more ships to work
> with. 

This i really dependent on your man-power I think. You might not have the
men to spare for another crew, so you take the cargo and anything else on
the ship that is easily removed (computers, mainboards, vacc-suits, maybe
even the rescue pod or other small craft.) 

> Which leads to the *big* problem with being a pirate. Annual
> maintenance. In the days of sail, the ship'screw could do any
> maintenance needed short of a major catastrophe. And they could do it
> on their own. At worst they needed to lay in a supply of lumber at
> their base.
> 
> But what's a pirate in the Imperium going to do? He not only needs to
> be able to sell his cargoes, he needs to be able to buy ordinance, and
> get battle damage repaired. And the annual maintenance is a killer.
> Because as you note, he's likely to be *known* by then. So he needs a
> Class B port that doesn't *care* that he's a pirate. 

All he needs is an engineer to fix that which dosn't work. I really don't
think that the pirate ship will be tip top shape, but it will run
(possibly) when needed. It will be patched up, parts replaced by stolen
goods, refits, refits and refits. A half way decent engineer and this is
definitly possible (at least IMTU). 

> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 12:39:57 -0400
From: Andy Slack <AndySlack@compuserve.com>
Subject: Piracy (it's ba-a-a-a-ack)

Straying off real world data for a while, Alastair Maclean
wrote a novel about modern-day piracy which was fun
to read. "When Eight Bells Toll." Made into a movie too.

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 12:40:05 -0400
From: Andy Slack <AndySlack@compuserve.com>
Subject: Informations on Alien Animals

>I would be interested if anyone knew where the following
creatures appear in Traveller:
Kian - I think this is a JTAS Bestiary
Bush Runner
Grass Dog
Gratheudom<

Kian - by Roger E Moore, JTAS 9
Bush Runner - 'Best of the Journal 1', JTAS 1?

Don't recall the others, I'm afraid.
Andy

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 12:40:01 -0400
From: Andy Slack <AndySlack@compuserve.com>
Subject: Website Questions

Message text written by dberry:
>Website Questions [snip]<

Thanx for the info, Doug - I'm on m'way...
Andy

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 12:38:47 -0400
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Rudeness on the TML

>I agree with Mr Mays, for whatever it may be worth to you.
>
>I object to being 'spoken' to via Email in such a way that would get the
>speaker punched in real life.
>
>Those who think it's clever to scream insults from their terminal a
>thousand miles away are in fact demonstrating one of the popular SF
>dystopia cliches - people become so insulated from one another that they
>can't relate 'for real'.


I must have missed something...and I hope that I did not contribute to this
problem.

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 09:57:10 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy

>From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
>Subject: Re: Piracy
...
>Bank robbers get caught a lot, on average they don't make a 
>lot of money, and a few of them end up dead. Rationally 
>you'd expect that they'd give it up as a bad scheme, right? 
>Then why are there still bank robbers?

  Ease of market entry, limited required skill set; you can be
poor, ignorant, and stupid. Those who don't fit this profile are
presumably the ones that show up at armoured cars with armfuls
of automatic weapons, steal millions of dollars _and are never
heard of again_.

>Some theories-
>i) Bad evaluation of risk. The Potential criminal doesn't 
>believe it to be as dangerous as it is.
>
>ii) Bad evaluation of reward, the potential criminal 
>believes that there is more money to be made than there 
>actually is.

  Shipowners/operators are going to know better. If they're unqualified
(professionally; self-delusion and overoptimism aside) to assess the
above they're very unlikely to survive or make money.

>iii) An inability to make money legally. Perhaps the 
>potential criminal is incompetant, or can't make the 

  I'll concede that some ship's masters will be incompetent, but it
is presumably a rare occurrence; it doesn't bode well for their
(brief?) career as a pirate. What about the crew? Getting paid late
is a lot less concern than being killed/executed/hunted to ground.
>payments and skips, and thus can't get legal cargos, and 
>has to stop using highly documented worlds. Perhaps they 
>have expensive habits, or they don't know how to get a job 
>as anything else. Maybe they've been working their butts 
>off and are still broke paying a mortgage, three sets of 
>alimony, and the repo man is trying to take back the car - 
>they Need Money Now, and they don't have a legal way of 
>getting it.

  I agree with the above. Desperate people do desperate things. But if
you luck out and take a ship worth MCr 40, why not try and sell it as
your cashing out maneuver? Once they've mastered their cash problems,
why keep sticking the revolver to their own head?

...
>some money, and some of them do get away. Surely it is more 
>than an irritation, otherwise there wouldn't be all that 
>money paid to people to stand around banks looking like 
>guards, yet it hasn't been completely shut down yet...

  One part where the comparison is more valid is in deterrence;
the presence of those (seemingly needless?) forces is actually
serving to keep the rates as low as they are.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 10:28:03 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Gridlore pages updated

I've added a few things to my new Gridlore Technologies pages

http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gridlore.html

Drop by and take a look.  Newly added is the latest revison of the
Coronation Battleship.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 10:32:07 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Piracy

At 09:57 AM 5/30/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
>>Subject: Re: Piracy
>...
>>Bank robbers get caught a lot, on average they don't make a 
>>lot of money, and a few of them end up dead. Rationally 
>>you'd expect that they'd give it up as a bad scheme, right? 
>>Then why are there still bank robbers?
>
>  Ease of market entry, limited required skill set; you can be
>poor, ignorant, and stupid. Those who don't fit this profile are
>presumably the ones that show up at armoured cars with armfuls
>of automatic weapons, steal millions of dollars _and are never
>heard of again_.

To quote a SFPG friend: "Bank robbers don't get caught, *repeat* bank
robbers get caught."  He expalined that if someone were smart enough to hit
a bank or armored car just once, and then retire, his chances of getting
away with the crime rise.  When you do it over and over, you establish a
pattern and leave more evidence behind.

The same could be apllied to piracy.  A pirate who strike once, takes the
ship and leaves, then doesn't do anything else for months is far less
likely to be hunted down than the guy who tries to hit every week.
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #536
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 30 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 537



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Query regarding Traveller Minatures 15mm
Non-Trav: Music Wanted
Re: Piracy now and in the Traveller universe
Re: Jae Tellona's Starport's Throughput
Re: Website Questions
Re: Piracy
Blowing up Ships
[none]
Jump Exit Points
Piracy
Limping Back
Re: Information on Alien Animals
Planetary Geology Question, and possible Piracy synthesis
Re: Imperial Tax Policy and *shudder* Piracy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 13:48:29 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Query regarding Traveller Minatures 15mm

What limited selection? I always thought NO selection. I have not seen a 15mm
Traveller figure in over ten years.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 13:44:48 -0700
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Non-Trav: Music Wanted

WJP ANNOUNCEMENT:
- ------------------------------



Walker Jane Productions is looking for a musician to score its new film
"October".

This is a drama-love story.

Isabella was the one that never was.  She was beautiful, intelligent,
funny, and everything that Conner ever wanted.  She was the girl of his
dreams.

The problem was that Isabella hadn't realized that Conner existed--at
least that's the way it was back in high school.  But today, 15 years
later, Conner still talks about her.  When all of the guys are standing
around after a party or a poker game, doing the guy-talk thing, Conner
brings her up, wishing that somehow he would run into her again.

And then...he does.  A friend mentions that he's seen her.  Conner
orchestrates a lunch, and he falls for her all over again.

That's when he finds out that she's about to marry another man.
Conner's heart breaks, and he wonders if there is another person in the
world that will make him feel this way again.

Conner has no choice.  He can't eat.  He can't sleep.  He can't work or
even watch TV.  All he wants to do is be with Isabella.

And from what she said at lunch, she's interested in him too.

He has to do something about it.

Not being with her is too painful to think about....



The film is in pre-production now.  Production starts this fall.
Interested musicians should forward a demo tape to Kenneth Bearden at
Walker Jane Productions.

Contact me at:          dreamer@brokersys.com

I will forward the snail mail address to those interested.

Thanks,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 15:27:15 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Piracy now and in the Traveller universe

- -----Original Message-----
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Piracy now and in the Traveller universe


>Thom Harris writes:
>
>>No Hans, you weren't too vague.  I posted a web page dedicated to modern
>>piracy.  Someone else added another three or four web pages to that (one
was
>>LLoyds), all of which conclusively state that piracy IS happening today.
>
>What if I promise to check out your reference if you repost it? Will that
>make up for my previous blunder?
>

Absolutely and I take back all my "your an unreasonable lazy, uncaring SOB"
statements.  I truly am very easy to get along with (believe it or not).
Here ya go:

http://www.vantage-security.com/piracya.htm  - This is a company
specializing in security.
http://www.marinewatch.com/piracy.html - This is just a short article/story.
http://www.stokesworld.com/potshots/ps11article3.html - Another short
article/story.
>
>>I will admit OPENLY that I agree with your statements when talking about a
>>STABLE Imperium with STABLE borders.  But at the fringes, even when the 3I
>>was solid, there would be NUMEROUS possibilities for Piracy to occur.
>>Whether this is done by the Varg, Aslan, Solomani or Imperial Warrant it
>>matters not.
>
>Ah. Back to the Traveller universe. The impossibility, or rather, extreme
>difficulty that IMO will make pirates scarcer than hens' teeth, is not one
>single factor but a combination that stacks up one on top of the other
>until it becomes too expensive to be a pirate. The discussion has gone
>back and forth over specific factors, but no one has addressed the
>overall picture. It's all very well to talk glibly about this or that
>fringe system being unpatrolled, but if it is a fringe system, then the
>pirate will have to spend time (and if you own a starship, time is money)
>to get there, will have to be lucky enough to get there just as the
>system is visited by a merchant ship, and will have to be able to capture
>it. All this means that just saying: "Hey, it could happen in a fringe
>system" is not a very cogent argument.
>
One argument that every one seems to be forgetting is that most pirates were
running not on common sense but instead on their EGO and quite often pure
ARRAGANCE.  So what might be unreasonable odds to you and I mean nothing to
someone who takes up the trade of Piracy.  They honestly feel that they can
get away with it until such time as they decide to quit.

In some cases this might be a one time deal where they find out about an
unusually valuable cargo and other times they might go on for years before
capture and/or death.  I think we both believe that if they continue as
pirates for very long they WILL be caught.  I never envisioned them doing it
for 30 years (or more) myself.  That brings us to their new career of
prisoner!
>
>>or 3) Someone approaching me with a paternal attitude like they're dealing
>>with a small child. Get a grip, I'm 46 years old, served in the Army for
>>20 years on four continents in three "conflicts", got an IQ over a
fricking
>>egg plant and an attitude of kiss my @$$ whenever ANYONE patronizes me.
>
>Get a grip yourself. If expressing regret at people not listening when it
>appears that they are not listening is patronizing, then I guess I was
being
>patronizing. Only, that's not my definition of being patronizing and I'm
not
>going to apologize for it.
>
This goes back to being ignored and assuming you had read the articles which
you have clearly stated that you didn't.  I felt the "sigh" was aimed at all
who had the audacity to argue with you.
>
>>What's the problem of having pirates in certain circumstances under
certain
>>conditions.
>
>None at all. It's just that Steven, Ian, I et alii believe that those
>conditions don't exist in and around the CT Imperium.
>
>>Why is it any one here's job to have to justify anything in our game to
you
>>or Hans.
>
>It's nobody's job to justify anything to anybody about their own game. FYI
>I stated early in the original debate (lo, these many months ago...) that I
>used pirates in my own campaign. I just bemoaned the fact that they don't
>make a whole lot of sense given the other conditions of the _official_
>Traveller universe. Others responded that they did make sense, and the
>dispute was off.
>
>No one is even _required_ to prove any claim he makes. But if you want to
>convince anyone of the truth of your claim, providing proof (or at least
>evidence) is a distinct bonus. That cuts both ways, of course, but IMO the
>pro-piracy people are so infuriatingly vague about their claims. What I
>would like was for someone to provide a complete analysis of one pirate
>trip: Make whatever assumptions he wanted (that didn't contradict other
>parts of canon) and then tell me what kind of ship he's using, how it is
>financed, where it is based, where it goes to find its prey, what it does
>while it is waiting, how it selects the prey, how it captures it, what he
>does with it afterwards, and how he returns to his home port with a profit.

>
I'll remind you that not all people think with the same degree of common
sense that you or I might.  See my statement about EGO above.  For the rest
of of your point see my response below.
>

>
>>Going back to the original posts (correct me if I'm wrong), but I seem to
>>remember this started out that you (generic) wouldn't attack any ship
who's
>>capitol value was less than yours.
>
>No, that wasn't quite it. It was a combination of two things: 1) Some of us
>believe that starships are few enough and sufficiently impossible to
disguise
>against a determined examination that it is possible to track down a
starship
>if you have sufficient particulars about it; we also think that if you are
>performing ordinary business at a starport, you (at the very least) risk
>leaving behind sufficient particulars. Depending on just how hard it is to
>fake transponders, you may even have to chose between doing any business at
>all or leaving behind your true transponder code. 2) Therefore a pirate
>who captures a ship will have to ditch the ship, much as a bank robber
>will have to ditch his getaway car. So unless the "take" is worth more
>than the pirate ship, the pirate is taking a net loss.
>
Okay, I missed that part of it and I'm sorry.  But let us continue along the
lines you suggest.  Setting up different Transponder responses is CT canon
along with changing the physical look of the ship (see "Corsair" under
ships).  IIRC they also had a bay large enough to hold a 100 dton ship so
that they could just take the whole thing in and jump out of system
immediately.  So, they don't have to ditch their ship after all.  They can
sell the entire captured ship for a fairly large sum of money even at a
lower price for going thru a fence.  Why would there be a "determined"
examination in every subsector? They are disguised as whatever transmitting
a "legitimate" code (stolen from a similar ship somewhere else) and just
refueling on their way thru at the local GG.  Weren't we just recently
talking about the 100 d limit being set based  on the largest gravity well
in the system.  Couldn't that put them far enough out system to be fairly
tough to identify reasonably?  Do you believe that all SDB's, Navy ships,
etc. are all so dilligent or could not be bribed a bit that one ship passing
thru couldn't be a corsair?  I almost say that was naive.  Don't get me
wrong here, I still feel that Pirates are a weak sister to other careers
available in the game.  There seems to be enough possibilities that it could
become a viable career option if your Erol Flynn is all I'm saying.  I also
believe, like you, that the encouters table is weighed much to heavily
toward having a pirate attack than seems justified.  How do we fix that in
CT, we don't, lets try for T4.1.  Aahhhh, wait a sec, that takes place back
in year 0 so pirates can operate there effectively.  Oh well, I guess we're
stuck with what we got.  I would add however, in CT it started a few years
before the fringes were stable.  In the ensuing years there were at least
two frontier wars with the Zho's.  Hhhmmm, that makes about three - six
years of a STABLE Empire so maybe, just maybe, CT's tables weren't off after
all.......
>
>      Hans Rancke
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 11:27:16 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Jae Tellona's Starport's Throughput

"Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca> wrote

> Steven Hudson noticed that Jae Tellona only has 900,000 people, 
> but its starport sees more than 300,000 scurry through it per week.
> 
> I think this isn't unreasonable; it is a bit scary, though.  Let
> me do some guesstimation.  I know a city isn't a planet

Actually given how many planets in Traveller have populations of 6 or
less, how frequent it it is for them to have only 1 center of
population, and the high levels of trade in the canonical universe, many
Traveller planets are probably much better modeled as cities than as
"planets".
 
> but what the heck:
> 
> Dallas/Fort Worth population: 4,000,000
> D/FW Airport capacity per day:
>         flights per day           2500
>         x passengers per flight    200
>         x one week                   7
>         ------------------------------
>                              3,500,000
> 
> So, each week, D/FW passes its ENTIRE population count in passengers
> through its airport.  Needless to say, D/FW's economy IS based on its
> commerce.


Is the DFW airport actually running at capacity?  How many people
actually go through it per week.

In the case of Dallas/Fort Worth (or many large modern airports) many of
these people board other flights within an hour or three.  Given that
trips in Traveller take significantly longer than modern airline flights
do and are often scheduled farther apart most starports are going to
need much more logistical support (hotels, etc) than modern airports.

Therefore strarports will have more in the way of hotels, restraunts,
bars, dens of iniquity, etc. than modern airports do beause they will be
supporting their passengers for longer periods of time before those
passengers move on to their final destinations.  While for many [most ?]
travellers the first planet they reach will _be_ their final destination
enough people will be travelleing on that they will need to find places
to stay, eat, shop, and engage in disgusting vices [law level permitting
or not] for a day to a week while they await further transport.  Unless
they have already prebooked transport off the world before they arrive,
or the straport is busy enough that ships for planet Y are an hourly
occurance or so, they will neeed some plance to stay while the ship is
in port.  If they are continuing on the ship they arrived in they may or
may not [IMTU usually may not - unless te port has no accomadations or
they have chartered the ship] be permitted to stay on the ship while it
is in port.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 17:13:50 +0100
From: Goran Damberg <damberg@hem.passagen.se>
Subject: Re: Website Questions

At 07:39 1998-05-29 -0400, you wrote:
>Hello each - a few belated questions:
>
>1. Is the Traveller Webring still in existence?

Yes, it's alive and kicking...
You can find it at:
http://enterprise.hb.se/~goeran/traveller/webring.html

>2. If it is, how do I join, please?

Go to the URL above, fill in the form and cut and paste the html-code that
is returned to you.

>3. Do I need to do anything to keep my website
>   within the bounds of propriety other than
>   put up a disclaimer saying Traveller is (c)
>   FFE and attribute copyright on individual
>   pages correctly?

As far as I know that should be all...

>4. Should I tell anyone about the website
>   and seek their approval (apart from those
>   like Marc who frequent this list - I'm
>   assuming if they disapproved I'd have
>   heard by now).
>

If you publish material by other authors you should get their aproval...

/goeran


>Thanks -
>Andy
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 22:38:25 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Piracy

On Sat, 30 May 1998 dberry@hooked.net wrote:

> To quote a SFPG friend: "Bank robbers don't get caught, *repeat* bank
> robbers get caught."  He expalined that if someone were smart enough to hit
> a bank or armored car just once, and then retire, his chances of getting
> away with the crime rise.  When you do it over and over, you establish a
> pattern and leave more evidence behind.

This might be true in America, but here in Norway we have a 97% solve rate
for bank robbers, and most of these are people that do this only once. 
 
> Douglas E. Berry

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 13:06:41 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Blowing up Ships

Rob Asked
>
>So, how can a large explosion be produced, preferably destroying the
>ship and a decent chunk of the highport, which will still look like an
>accident? Can a fusion plant be made to explode somehow? Or is it
>going to have be a dodgy cargo that's reposonsible? Possibly a 'small'
>explosion is more likely that triggers a volatile cargo?
>

I can see a few easy ways:

1) turn a bulkhead porous to H2 via a slow acting reaction (ie,
non-explosive) into a compartment with an electrical short.

2) pull a sneak-job and set their PP O2 to 10in Hg and arrange a small
short. The resultant fire flash, especially if in engineering, might be a
really impresive series of reactions. combine with #1 for really leathal
fire and explosive effect.

3) insert a computer virus which locks open the fuel to the PP to maximum
flow, while then droping the containment fields.

on the not so easy but very effective list:
2g of anti-matter in a containment field powered off a battery. place near
PP (or in PP works).

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 12:46:49 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: [none]

>>Piracy + kidnap ransom + smuggling + extortion - you can make a pretty
>>good living if you'r creative and ruthless enough.
>
>  Why not sell the first ship you capture and avoid the stress? I'm
>assuming rational/economic behaviour here; I frankly doubt that a
>band of psychopaths will last very long.

Ships are readily traceable unless you carefully work to create a
paper-trail allowing you a legal claim.

Cargo theft is hard to trace (comparative volumes of respective items).

Kidnapping is not easy to get ransoms from, as you have to reveal where the
money is going to change hands, and (unless you only plan on it once) you
have to maintain the hostages. You also have to escape with the money. And,
if you kill them, you run up against one of the Imperial Crimes: Murder.

Extortion is often a form of piracy. If a customs or patrol boat rolls up
and says "Gimme KCr5 or I look the other way while the Corsair over there
picks you off" is just about the same as saying "Gimme KCr5 or I blow you
up" and is only a minor step from "Gimme KCr5 or I'll see to it I find a
reason to sieze your cargo &/or ship". (this last isn't piracy, but is very
similar in effect.)

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 12:02:45 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Jump Exit Points

Joseph R. Dietrich:
>>So, if an error can put you out  without forcing you against the edge of a
>>gravity well, why can you not choose to drop out beyond that limit?
>
>Please explain why a merchant ship would want to do this. Time is money, no?

time is only money when time is useful. Since most ports have brokers
available, and most merchants will be on a route or in a regular
operational area, they will often be able to build a "credit of trust" with
local brokers, so a call with encoded manifest gets the wheels rolling.
some economic benefits:

	1) picking 110 diameters avoids violent precipitation from minor errors
		this avoids passenger complaints from rough exit.
	2) allowing for a chance to review options before hitting the
 		"enforcement zone". (I have seen a canon reference to
		planetary law taking effect at 100 diameters, but cannot
		remember the citation; when I find it again, I'll post it)
	3) increased chance of not being detected upon immediate jump-exit.
		not particularly important in a stable core area, as such
areas
		will have almost no mainworld piracy/privateering. On the
		fringes, or during unstable periods (which are numerous and
		extensive, if you read the timelines with a n eye for
political
		instability in the imperium as a whole)
	4) Convoy operations: pick a jump exit spot not more than a 2 days out
		on jump in, wait for at least one other member, then contact a
		broker to have cargos, freight and buyers waiting.

>>Similarly, unnder TNE, you can set jump coordinates so your vector will
>>allow you minimal burns to orbit (Bingo Jump). I can see cases where this
>>would require more than 100 diameters out.
>
>Is this the only reason? What are the others?

TNE's misjup rules allow for up to a huge distance in the correct system on
a jump spatial location error.

also, if exit point is ONLY AT 100 diameters, that is a finite area to be
enforced (yes, AREA, not volume); if AT LEAST 100 diameters, then the
volume is infinite, with a defineable volume where defenses can be
gathered. The distinction forces totally different


William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 18:32:05 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Piracy

Ian Whitchurch wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Well, if piracy pays worse than legitimate trade and risks you being hung
from the yard arm, why risk piracy ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You're already facing life (or death) for the mutiny that got you your
ship in the first place - why stop there? Sensible people don't
start careers of crime in the first place.

Ian again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>snip>>>>>>>
Why not just steal your own ship, taking it to some convenient freeport
(Sword Worlds, Vargr Extents) and selling it instead ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Skipping happens too. But were I an ethically-challenged citizen of the
Imperium, I'd be more afraid of the Vargr than of the Imperial Navy. :)

As for the Sword Worlds, I'm wondering about the political situation - are
they known as a haven for fugitives from the Imperium? I'd heard of the 
districts just rimward of the Spinward Marches (as per the Leviathan
LBB CT adventure) being known to the average Imperial citizen as
a haunt for pirates and renegades, but who knows how much relationship
reality has with common knowledge in this case.

Ian again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.snip>>>>>>
Part of the problem with this is Traveller sensors easily detect ships out
beyond the 100 diameter limits. Pirating outgoing ships has the problem of
their jumping within the 100 diameter limit rather than trust out pirate's
promise to let them live. Pirating incoming ships has the problem of
reactions from the world you are hanging around.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Again, how does this relate to stealth capabilities? Can a pirate
go to minimal emissions just prior to jump exit and lie doggo on
passive sensors from jump exit to prey detection effectively?
I'm not talking Black Globes here, but there must be something
that can be done - especially if we're talking a sub-1000 (or even
sub-500) dtn craft.

I think a pirate would have to concentrate on incoming traffic (or
intra-system craft) for exactly the reason you mention above. I
also think the pirate is going to need a jump-3 or better ship and
do all her raiding with at least a jump-1's worth on board for the 
getaway.

Ian again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>snip>>>>
How much would such a pirate base cost to construct and maintain ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

A few days with belter-grade mining gear, plus the LS and stores from
a military supply cache or two - I see many pirates as being mutineers
or otherwise ex-military. Or perhaps they park one of those X-boat
tenders (touted as a favorite target of pirates) on a lonely asteroid.

People keep asking "how much does it cost" - I put forth that the
average pirate won't care, as he stole it anyway. 

This gives me another idea - when pirates steal from a ship, do they
clean out the life support consumables as well? I'd think they would
to support their ops and bases - but if it was common for the pirates
to empty your oxygen tanks before they left, their targets would start
fighting to the death. A smart pirate might take a lot, but not all. 

Ian again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>snip>>>>>>>>
You can fit maybe 12 people and maybe 10 dtons of cargo into a type S. I'd
use a Far Trader myself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Agreed - but for plot purposes, I can imagine a pirate chief keeping
one around. It's nice to have a jump-capable ship that one person
can fly in a pinch, the first pirate on board gets to show just how much
honor there is amongst thieves while Impie Patrol Ships are showing
up in-system... :)

Ian again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>snip>>>>>>>.
>I imagine a Pirate Captain's worst nightmare - arriving at his clan's
>base and finding Imperial Marines there.

Yes. Especially as ships jumping in will be out of jump fuel.

Hmmm. On the other hand, imagine a group of PCs that have information on
the location of such a base. Rather than informing the Navy, they try and
scrape together a private military force to take it themselves, then
collect the pirate ships as they arrive ... even if you have to give the
captured ships back to their legitimate owners, any actual pirate ships
should be fair game.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Interesting - you'd need enough high guard to bag the pirates, as they're
sure to have a secret fuel cache or two in-system (I sure would). The
first "Private Military force" that comes to mind is a Broadsword
(or equivalent) with it's carried merc contingent, that should do for both
storming the base and having a reasonable shot at catching the armed
merchants, 400-tn Corsairs and such that seem to be the "average"
pirate ships. Pirate ship jumps in, doesn't get the code, tries to make
it to a fuel cache and refuel for jump before being intercepted.
Carrying a fighter frame module (if you have a Broadsword) could make 
this interception easier.

Of course, if your Marines manage to capture a knowledgable pirate or
two and make him cooperative (promises, threats, psi-powers, whatever),
you could give the right answer codes and get the pirates to dock - then
your only problem is hiding the captured ship when your next pigeon
stops by. :)



Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 18:48:49 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Limping Back

Finally got a laptop with Eudora on it, so I'm now back online. However, I
don't yet have access to any of my data, and there are 824 messages sitting
in my inbox. Since I know everything you all have to say is deeply
interesting, I'm going to read them all, which may take awhile ...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 20:14:23 -0700
From: warlock@imagin.net
Subject: Re: Information on Alien Animals

The following is a list of all animals covered in JTAS
and Challenge. Note: Any JTAS or Challenge issue not
listed means it didn't have a Bestiary entry.

JTAS   Critters
- ----   --------
1      Bush Runner, Tree Kraken (or Land Squid)
2      Kudebeck's Gazelle (or Ivory Gazelle),
       Garan's Leech
3      Beaked Monkey (or Beaker), Sea Bear
4      Reticulan Parasite (as in the movie "Alien")
6      Dolphins, part 1 of 2
7      Dolphins, part 2 of 2
9      Springer, Kian
10     Tree Rat
11     Rag Fish, Bloodvark
12     Yulya (part of an adventure, not a Bestiary)
13     Garhawk, Hoplites
14     Smaetal Swarms
15     Crested Jabberwock, Doyle's Eel
16     Seed Spitter, Miniphant
17     Ice Crawler
18     Luugiir, Tree Lion
19     Lozin
20     Afeahyalhtow, Ponsonby's Velvet
21     The Micro-Ecology of Quicoral

Chal   Critters
- ----   --------
27     Oegongong
37     Lowalaa
41     Madlash

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 00:31:01
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Planetary Geology Question, and possible Piracy synthesis

I'm thinking about asteroid and other mining, and the obvious question
comes up, do we have a geologist on the list ?

If we dont, I'll have to fake it.

Veins of ore are fundamentally formed by volcanic activity, and the action
of wind and water - in other words, by 'live' worlds, not by chunks of rock
in space.

Asteroids, therefore, are going to be of constant composition. This is
usually very bad - an entire asteroid of 99.5% nickle iron, 0.0045 percent
lead and 0.005 percent silver is unlikely to be exploitable, regardless of
the raw amount of silver 50 parts per million represents. On the other
hand, a 1% silver, 95% nickle iron, 4% lead asteroid may be worth exploiting.

I have absolutely no idea about carbonaceous asteroids.

Ice asteroids are valuable, because ice is hydrogen and water, and both of
those have lots of uses.

From what we know about our system, at least some moons have volcanic
activity. Volcanic activity can create seams of valuable minerals, and it
doesnt matter if as a whole the moon has the uranium content of your
average sandpit, if the bit you've found is enough parts per million to be
exploitable.

Now, this seems to imply that in a system with moons, you are going to have
a chance of a number of small, vulnerable sub-colonies engaging in mining
and exploration activity. This is going to be happening a long way away
from the mainworld, and thus away from the mainworld's sensors, defenses
and so on.

These small colonies are unlikely to be self-supporting, and have to have
someone drop by to drop off supplies and pick up samples or product.

It is probable many of these colonies will be owned by off-world commercial
or government interests, and thus the possibility exists of smuggling - the
mine manager agrees to have a ton of gem-bearing ore drop off the back of a
truck, in return for a ton of spare parts off this list, which Head Office
is for some reason refusing to supply. This fits with the history of piracy
in the Caribbean on Earth - John Hawkins, for example, was as likely to
trade with a Spanish colony as to try and raid it (Spanish island colonies
tended to be resupplied by regular convoys, which didnt always turn up when
they should have, and charged high prices when they did).

One thing this implies is that the UPPs for a system need to be
multi-dimensional - the IISS surveys we know and love only record
mainworlds. I personally find it entirely reasonable that a world like Heya
(2402/Regina, B687745-5 Ag Ri 734) has a series of higher tech, lower pop
mining settlements in the Outsystem, or around it's companion star (a
corrolory to this, for me at least, is that worlds with asteroid belts in
their system should class as asteroid belts for Source trade purposes, but
not for Market purposes).

For the reasons Hans, Steve and myself have documented, piracy is very
unlikely to happen in or near mainworlds. I will have to check this with my
factional colleagues (guys, meet at 1040 GMT tonight on efnet's
#Piratesmustdiediedie to plot strategy), but I dont think we will have as
big a problem with piracy being solely an outsystem problem. There is still
the issue the Navy would have with pirates doubling as spies for Enemy
Powers (which is a big issue in the Marches, what with enemies on three
sides), but the fact that the space in and near the 100 diameter limit can
simply and cheaply be secured does not apply to the rest of the system.

Does this let us all have our cake, and eat it too ?

Ian Whitchurch

 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 19:17:30 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Tax Policy and *shudder* Piracy

At 01:20 am 5/22/98 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> There _is_ a problem with this set up when the world's government
>> is being contested for a prolonged period of time ... such  as  a
>> long-running local civil war.  If the identity of the  legitimate
>> world government is in question then who gets  stiffed  with  the
>> tax bill?
>
>If I was the Imperial tax collector, I'd present the bill to *both*
>sides, with a hint that whoever pays it gets recognized. Of course,
>after they paid it, it might turn out to be a misunderstanding. Or
>maybe the Imperium *would* decide to recognize them. :-)

	Like a feature of certain states' law I recently read about in a newspaper
article. Don't remember the details, but basically if you paid the taxes on
a piece of real estate, and were using it, you could go to court to take
the title away from its owner ...

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #537
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, June 1 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 538



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Plot Device Wanted
Re: Piracy
Piracy
Freelance Traveller update!
Re: Bank robbery
Oops?
Re: Plot Device Wanted
Thoughts on sensors
Re: Bank robbery
Re: Bank robbery
CG in ship design
Jump points WRT stars
Sword world names
Re: Plot Device Wanted
Re: Bank robbery
Re: Jump points WRT stars
Re: Bank robbery
Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 19:26:11 -0700
From: Richard Hough <richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com>
Subject: Re: Plot Device Wanted

>So, how can a large explosion be produced, preferably destroying the
>ship and a decent chunk of the highport, which will still look like an
>accident?

Contrary to what other posters have said, my feeling is that a hydrogen
leak would not produce an explosion large enought to destroy the ship, let
alone a chunk of the highport. Hydrogen explosions are pretty impressive,
just look at the Challenger, but I don't think that enough hydrogen and
oxygen can be brought together quickly enought by "accident" inside a ship
to destroy it. A typical ship is broken into several small gas-tight
compartments, and any hydrogen leaking would progably react with the air or
ship contents slowly and without pyrotechnics, rather than building up to
fireball proportions before combusting. I would think that, after a few
millenia of space travel, engineers would have perfected ways of
eliminating sudden explosions.

IMTU, starships dock outside a highport or are serviced by port shuttles;
this reduces congestion around the highport and prevents smugglers or
terrorists gaining direct access to the port. Even if your ship is in a
hangar or some kind of internal drydock, the station armor may run inside
the hangar, so that the force of any explosion woiuld be directed outward.
Starport regulations may also require ships docking internally be unarmed.
In short, an explosion that destroys your ship would probably not affect
the port too much.

A better idea is an out-of control ship crashing into the highport; this
would probably destroy the ship and do considerable damage to the port.
Depending on local laws, a ship whose trajectory intersects the station's
may be blown out of space without a warning, but even a pile of debris
hitting the station at a few km/s should do a bit of damage.

If you really want to blow the highport up, how about "accidentally"
launching some nuke-det missiles at it? The combat rules for nukes assume
they detonate far away from the target, which is only hit by the
nuke-pumped lasers. Actually hitting a station would probably blow away a
huge chunk of it and make the rest unusable. Of course, TL12 and above
stations probably have nuclear dampers installed to prevent precisely this
kind of thing.

>Can a fusion plant be made to explode somehow? Or is it
>going to have be a dodgy cargo that's reposonsible? Possibly a 'small'
>explosion is more likely that triggers a volatile cargo?

Again, unless your ship is inside an unarmored hangar, even detonating your
cargo load of dirty nukes probably won't do significant damage to the
station. Perhaps a better idea is a cargo of persistant biological or
chemical agent that gets out. It could corrode electronics, cause disease,
or just get the highport quarantined for a few weeks. Or you could download
a virus to the highport's computers that makes it go insane and start
attacking.... *slap!* owww.
- --
Richard Hough
richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 03:44:03
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Piracy

>From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
>Subject: Piracy
>
>Ian Whitchurch wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Well, if piracy pays worse than legitimate trade and risks you being hung
>from the yard arm, why risk piracy ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>You're already facing life (or death) for the mutiny that got you your
>ship in the first place - why stop there? Sensible people don't
>start careers of crime in the first place.
>

I seem to remember the penalty for barratry (skipping) being life rather
than death ... I believe that about a megacredit sounding right for getting
a new identity.

>Ian again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>snip>>>>>>>
>Why not just steal your own ship, taking it to some convenient freeport
>(Sword Worlds, Vargr Extents) and selling it instead ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>As for the Sword Worlds, I'm wondering about the political situation - are
>they known as a haven for fugitives from the Imperium? I'd heard of the 
>districts just rimward of the Spinward Marches (as per the Leviathan
>LBB CT adventure) being known to the average Imperial citizen as
>a haunt for pirates and renegades, but who knows how much relationship
>reality has with common knowledge in this case.

I'd say that the Sword Worlds are pretty hostile to the Imperium, given
their histories, so I'd say they are the freeport of choice. Now, the Navy
knows this too, and I think the IN would be very interested in ships going
into and out of the Sword Worlds with inadequate paperwork, and I think the
Navy would be aggressivly patrolling all systems within about a jump-4 of
the border.

>
>Ian again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.snip>>>>>>
>Part of the problem with this is Traveller sensors easily detect ships out
>beyond the 100 diameter limits. Pirating outgoing ships has the problem of
>their jumping within the 100 diameter limit rather than trust out pirate's
>promise to let them live. Pirating incoming ships has the problem of
>reactions from the world you are hanging around.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Again, how does this relate to stealth capabilities? Can a pirate
>go to minimal emissions just prior to jump exit and lie doggo on
>passive sensors from jump exit to prey detection effectively?
>I'm not talking Black Globes here, but there must be something
>that can be done - especially if we're talking a sub-1000 (or even
>sub-500) dtn craft.

Stealthed ships are going to attract bureaucratic attention when they dock.
Essentially, I dont think you can be both stealthed+well armed and pass as
a legitimate merchant.

Lying doggo works, but has the problem of making it very hard to be in the
right spot to intercept a target.

>
>I think a pirate would have to concentrate on incoming traffic (or
>intra-system craft) for exactly the reason you mention above. I
>also think the pirate is going to need a jump-3 or better ship and
>do all her raiding with at least a jump-1's worth on board for the 
>getaway.

I am 99% sure that intrasystem craft in the outsystem is your last, best
hope as a pirate.

>
>Ian again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>snip>>>>
>How much would such a pirate base cost to construct and maintain ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>A few days with belter-grade mining gear, plus the LS and stores from
>a military supply cache or two - I see many pirates as being mutineers
>or otherwise ex-military. Or perhaps they park one of those X-boat
>tenders (touted as a favorite target of pirates) on a lonely asteroid.

Attacking x-boat tenders is going to attract a lot of direct Imperial
attention. I dont think you can conduct meaningful amounts of maintainence
and repair at such a casual base.

>
>People keep asking "how much does it cost" - I put forth that the
>average pirate won't care, as he stole it anyway. 
>
>This gives me another idea - when pirates steal from a ship, do they
>clean out the life support consumables as well? I'd think they would
>to support their ops and bases - but if it was common for the pirates
>to empty your oxygen tanks before they left, their targets would start
>fighting to the death. A smart pirate might take a lot, but not all. 

This is a game theory problem. While it is interest of pirates in general
to let their prey live, it is in the interest of every specific pirate to
make sure there are no witnesses.

>
>Ian again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>snip>>>>>>>>
>You can fit maybe 12 people and maybe 10 dtons of cargo into a type S. I'd
>use a Far Trader myself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>Agreed - but for plot purposes, I can imagine a pirate chief keeping
>one around. It's nice to have a jump-capable ship that one person
>can fly in a pinch, the first pirate on board gets to show just how much
>honor there is amongst thieves while Impie Patrol Ships are showing
>up in-system... :)
>

If I was the pirate chief, I'd be putting some impressive electronic
security on my getaway ship.

>Ian again:
>Hmmm. On the other hand, imagine a group of PCs that have information on
>the location of such a base. Rather than informing the Navy, they try and
>scrape together a private military force to take it themselves, then
>collect the pirate ships as they arrive ... even if you have to give the
>captured ships back to their legitimate owners, any actual pirate ships
>should be fair game.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>Interesting - you'd need enough high guard to bag the pirates, as they're
>sure to have a secret fuel cache or two in-system (I sure would). The
>first "Private Military force" that comes to mind is a Broadsword
>(or equivalent) with it's carried merc contingent, that should do for both
>storming the base and having a reasonable shot at catching the armed
>merchants, 400-tn Corsairs and such that seem to be the "average"
>pirate ships. Pirate ship jumps in, doesn't get the code, tries to make
>it to a fuel cache and refuel for jump before being intercepted.
>Carrying a fighter frame module (if you have a Broadsword) could make 
>this interception easier.

I'd say a Broadsword plus a ship with a number of fighters on grapples
would be my choice.

>
>Of course, if your Marines manage to capture a knowledgable pirate or
>two and make him cooperative (promises, threats, psi-powers, whatever),
>you could give the right answer codes and get the pirates to dock - then
>your only problem is hiding the captured ship when your next pigeon
>stops by. :)

Thats what the Outsystem is for ...

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 01:06:42 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Piracy

Steven Hudson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hello,
>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: Piracy
..
>That's why you don't encounter the authorities with this ship - that's what
>your pirate syndicate maintains cargo transfer points and legal-looking
>free traders for. As I mentioned earlier, it's much harder if the way
>jump exit works IYTU makes it impossible to jump into a system 
>without being detected. 

  What if the authorities or fate disagree? If ID'ing a ship is quite
hard (see current telescope resolution thread) then how do you know
that new arrival isn't heavily armed or a patrol boat? Such a ship
(expensive, purpose built?) can't function except as a hostile warship;
no conventional revenue stream is possible, nor is "swim with the fishes"
intrusion survivable.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I keep wondering why people expect criminals to balance books,
pay proper maintenance and otherwise act like honest businessmen.
So they can't create a conventional revenue stream - neither are they
paying taxes or doing a lot of things as they are expected to.
You LS costs are going to be pretty low when you're stealing all the
things that make it possible. 

As for "swimming with the fishes" - the original CT Corsair ship
(400 dtn, possibly the _Nishemani_ class as per DGP's SOM)
has fake modules, extensible fins, variable radio emissions and
variable transponders - obviously some deception effort was made.
How effective these efforts will be depends on how often the Imperium
boards ships in it's internal security patrols.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Steve again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>snip>>>>>>>>
  A pirate syndicate starts to imply massive capitalization and an
impressive organization. How this would establish itself without the
assistance of an outside party (thus leaving the definition of piracy
behind and becoming commerce raiders) is difficult to see.

  Such events may occur very rarely, but it lacks credibility as
the common model for piracy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Consider the chain of people it takes to get an ounce of cocaine
to a deadbeat junkie on a New York city street, then tell me again
that criminal groups can't form and work together for mutual profit. :)

But seriously, the only organization I'm talking about is a couple weeks'
mining work with a Seeker model scout (hidden asteroid base),
a pile of supplies lifted from one of the hundreds of military caches,
and a Free/Far Trader crew of challenged enough ethics to take on
loads of cargo of questionable origin. If a couple pirate ships share
bases (and only the Navigator needs know where the bases actually
are, improving security), you've got yourself a syndicate - it can grow
naturally, assuming a few pirates survive their entry into the business
long enough to start planning for the future.

Steve again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>snip>>>>>
  What sort of armament (well, general performance and load-out) are
you assuming for your pirate ship?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'm assuming (based entirely on the way the Gazelle was laid
out to discourage mutineers) that the performance and load-out
of a pirate ship will be whatever the pirates can keep working
from the small patrol vessel they stole in the first place.
3G to 4G, more lasers than missiles - missiles make a mess of the
vessel, and are hard to replace.

If you want to pick and choose your armament and load-out, you're
talking about a purpose-built commerce raider, not a pirate.

Steve again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>snip>>>>
My point would be that large organizations are ultimately less economic
and more vulnerable. In addition they're much more likely to trigger a
response that will almost guarantee their liquidation.

  Part of the problem is that the extremely burdensome cost of bases
is one of the main points against widespread use of SDB's, fighters,
or even patrol ships against piracy. Whether this is so is subject
to debate. Presumably these bases (disposable or not) are not huge
capital or operations outlays.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I see the pirate groups being small, even if they do have a base
of operations - as you are pointing out, overly large groups or
overly successful pirates get a visit from Light Cruisers.

Steve again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Piracy + kidnap ransom + smuggling + extortion - you can make a pretty
>good living if you'r creative and ruthless enough.

  Why not sell the first ship you capture and avoid the stress? I'm
assuming rational/economic behaviour here; I frankly doubt that a 
band of psychopaths will last very long.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If you have a free port to sell ships in, enough spare crew aboard
to pilot them there, enough fuel in the target's tank to jump away
from the cavalry - this sounds like a pirate's dream haul, and 
perhaps enough to retire on. This will happen how often?

An I'm wondering how much you'd get on the black market for
a used, battle-damaged stolen starship anyway. 25% of the sticker
price may be optimistic, and that would be (for a Free Trader) 9.25MCr.
That's enough cash (assuming you aren't paying black market prices)
to replace two triple turrets full of beam lasers.


Steve again, on why the Corsair profession exists:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
  As much fun as they might be, it gets very strange if rule system
artifacts start being assigned as background facts - whether the TCS
Cr 500 per capita naval budget or the suggestion that ~17% of the
population of the Imperium were ex-Scouts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
OK, I'll give you that one - as long as you'll admit that the existance
of piracy is, in itself, Canon.  :)


Walt

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 05:12:36 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Freelance Traveller update!

Freelance Traveller has been updated!

Mike Linsenmayer has another page full of his artwork, The Social
Register has been renamed to the much more appropriate Kurishdam,
and a nasty bug in the HTML that FrontPage98 was generating was
discovered and corrected. 

<<actually, the bug is in the template I use for the FT pages -
but I'm not about to admit that >:) >>

Freelance Traveller is also now mirrored at
http://w3.execnet.com/jeffz.  At the mirror site, the Feedback
and Ask Freelance Traveller forms actually work!  Because of
logistics, you can expect the mirror to reflect changes to the
site before the main site at Tightbeam does - but since in
general you won't be seeing this message until I've uploaded the
changes to Tightbeam, and it seems to take a couple of days to
reach the list, it won't generally matter.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
freetrav@hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 02:30:43 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bank robbery

I recall hearing *somewhere* (for whatever that's worth, as I don't recall the
source) that said there's been no successful bank robbery (meaning the
culprits were never caught) since the early 20 century AD.   It might've taken
a few years, but eventually... Of course, this *is* scuttlebut, so u can
happily ignore me. : )

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 01:45:24 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Oops?

>From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>Subject: Planetary Geology Question, and possible Piracy synthesis
...
>Now, this seems to imply that in a system with moons, you are going to have
>a chance of a number of small, vulnerable sub-colonies engaging in mining
>and exploration activity. This is going to be happening a long way away
>from the mainworld, and thus away from the mainworld's sensors, defenses
>and so on.

  Like most things even vaguely related to spacefaring in Traveller,
this has already been touched upon in the piracy debate. I'll see if
I can find the original posts.

>For the reasons Hans, Steve and myself have documented, piracy is very
>unlikely to happen in or near mainworlds. I will have to check this with my
>factional colleagues (guys, meet at 1040 GMT tonight on efnet's
>#Piratesmustdiediedie to plot strategy),

  Gee, I was busy getting my butt kicked (repeatedly) at Settlers
of Catann (great game, though). Does this mean I have to undergo
a session of self-criticism, Comrade?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 23:50:01 +1200
From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Plot Device Wanted

Hmmm, this reminds me of an episode in CT where we (the characters) had set
up a shipping company and were having some problems with pirates... We took
the warheads from a couple of nuclear missiles we had 'acquired' and welded
them into the hull of a free trader, filled it with some cargo, leaked
rumours of the wealth of the cargo, jumped into the pirates 'home' system,
and drove around a bit until the pirates came along. Then we leapt into the
6G cutter we had strategically strapped to the side, let the pirates take
the ship to their home base and blammo :) Thus we acquired the company
slogan "Pirates 0, SPLATT 1".  It's a long story how we got the name SPLATT.

Cheers,
 Anson

I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather,
not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 11:18:12
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Thoughts on sensors

OK. I have the Definitive Sensor Rules and the FFS Errata, and I am
startting to think.

Firstly, active sensors appear pretty useless. The way to go appears to be
using passive sensors to identify targets, and then use LIDARs to get a
fire control lock. AEMS may have uses in highlighting either missiles or
the individual beads of blossomed kinteic kill missiles, for point defense
lasers to pick off (how much energy does it take to boil away 1cm3 of
superdense, anyway ?).

LIDARS useful to sensible combat ranges (a million km or so) appear to be
small and cheap by military standards. The combat technique of trying to
'scrub' a hull of surface features by use of long distance lasers and/or
kinetic kill missiles has been suggested. I would think that it wouldnt be
that hard to make LIDARS and PEMS massivly redundant (I am thinking about
20 or so per warship), and have most of them behind blow-off or removable
armour plates - 10 cm of crystaliron will stop any laser, and as LIDARS get
damaged you just reveal new ones.

Do people think this is possible ?

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 14:19:49 GMT
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: Bank robbery

On Sun, 31 May 1998 02:30:43 EDT, you wrote:

>I recall hearing *somewhere* (for whatever that's worth, as I don't recall the
>source) that said there's been no successful bank robbery (meaning the
>culprits were never caught) since the early 20 century AD.   It might've taken
>a few years, but eventually... Of course, this *is* scuttlebut, so u can
>happily ignore me. : )

I thought the guy who parachuted out of the plane with the money he
stole from a bank was never caught...

John Lansford


http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 09:29:17 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Bank robbery

At 02:19 PM 5/31/98 GMT, you wrote:
>On Sun, 31 May 1998 02:30:43 EDT, you wrote:

>I thought the guy who parachuted out of the plane with the money he
>stole from a bank was never caught...

Ah, the great D.B. Cooper.  He didn't rob a bank, but hijacked the plane
and demanded the money.  Then he parachuted from a maitenence hatch in the
cargo hold.

Since they couldn't find him, they decided he "must have" died in the jump.
 About twnety years later some of the money was found in an area creekbed.
Abbie Hoffman swore that D.B lived but then lost everything in a
real-estate deal.  Who knows.

Another good myth is that no-one ever escaped from Alcatraz Federal Prison.
 The story goes that nobody could survive the freezing water (46 F on
average), the strong currents, and the sharks which cruise the bay.  But
after one breakout the found one of the prisoners asleep under the North
tower of the Golden Gate Bridge.  He had survived the swim, but was too
tired to continue.
- --

Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html
*******************************************
"It is better to have more lightning in the
 brain and less thunder in the mouth."
                              -Sioux saying

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 16:04:28 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: CG in ship design

"Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> sez:


> Therefore, ships which lack lifting surfaces (non-
>airframes) have CG in order to ensure that they can land in any gravity well.
An
>airframe hull OTOH generates lift in an atmosphere and therefore can go
>without the CG.

 CAN go without CG does not mean SHOULD go without. Designers who leave
CG off of their Airframe designs are denying easy access to all airless
and trace atmo downports, and removing an important safely tool from a
multi megaCredit pile of hardware the owner calls home. I can see
financial institutions and starports both giving preference to ships
with CG for safety sake. Think of it as building a car without seatbelts
in this day and age...

GypsyComet

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 21:07:52 +0100
From: Hugh Foster <HughFoster@Servisair.co.uk>
Subject: Jump points WRT stars

>> Should the 100 solar diameter limit be used also?

Jens Makus says such a rule would measure 4.5AU for our system.

This would make patrols more difficult (how much more?) and
would make piracy more do-able (how much more?). <<

From a historical point of view this would be bad, because the first
bold jump pioneers of Terra would have to travel three and a half times
the distance to the sun in order to test their nice new jump drive. 


Hugh Foster
System Support Analyst

Servisair (UK) Ltd.
hughfoster@servisair.co.uk
www.servisair.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 21:07:53 +0100
From: Hugh Foster <HughFoster@Servisair.co.uk>
Subject: Sword world names

>> This is part compilation or responses to date, part research (web
based).

I haven't found Dyrwin, Hofud, or Enos.  Tyrfing is a bit thin, I'd
appreciate any references to any of these. <<

Isn't Dyrwin from The Weirdstone of Brisingamen ?


Hugh Foster
System Support Analyst

Servisair (UK) Ltd.
hughfoster@servisair.co.uk
www.servisair.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 14:20:34 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Plot Device Wanted

At 10:40 pm 5/29/98 +0100, you wrote:
>Hi.
>
>Has anybody got any suggestions on how I could make the following
>scenario work?

>So, how can a large explosion be produced, preferably destroying the
>ship and a decent chunk of the highport, which will still look like an
>accident? Can a fusion plant be made to explode somehow? Or is it
>going to have be a dodgy cargo that's reposonsible? Possibly a 'small'
>explosion is more likely that triggers a volatile cargo?

	The simplest would be to fake a hydrogen leak from the refueling station
in the docking bay, and have the leak sensors fail. As the hydrogen vapor
concentration reaches the right point, a single spark would boom!

	From gut feeling, I don't think a fusion explosion would be believable.
Not only are there bound to be excessive "fail safe" measures, but I'm not
sure there's going to be enough fusion going on at power-plant levels to
produces a major boom. The big trouble, at least today, with fusion is
keeping it GOING ... anything that interferes with containment would just
destroy the near-vacuum and snuff out the fusion reaction. Maybe the heat
released would cause some local concussion damage as the inrushing air is
flashheated and rushes outward ... Any of the physics experts out there
able to speculate what the maximum boom would be for a fusion reaction
putting out a megawatt (or a million joules per second ...) under control,
assuming ALL controls vanished instantaneously? At least the total amount
of energy that would be released?

	For that matter, I'd expect pretty serious safety controls on LHyd too. In
fact, I personally wouldn't put a refueling hookup IN any of the docking
bays. Fueling would be done at a separate fueling station outside the
highport. Maybe a hydrogen leak from the ship's tanks; maybe make it look
like an outside party (unrelated terrorist attack?)... Yeah, that's it!
Make it look like bad brother just by sheer miserable luck got caught in a
terrorist bombing not even aimed at him ... when it was actually his
perfect luck to have been kidnapped before he could blow up!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 18:22:46 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bank robbery

Really? Is that why they closed the rock?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 15:29:26 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Jump points WRT stars

At 09:07 PM 5/31/98 +0100, you wrote:
>>> Should the 100 solar diameter limit be used also?
>
>Jens Makus says such a rule would measure 4.5AU for our system.

I'm curious where the 4.5 AU figure comes from, since that gives the sun a
diameter of 4.23 million miles.

Unless the sun has ballooned to amazing size while I was catching a nap,
it's diameter is around 850,000 miles.  This gives a rough jump limit of 85
million miles, or about .9 AU.

>>From a historical point of view this would be bad, because the first
>bold jump pioneers of Terra would have to travel three and a half times
>the distance to the sun in order to test their nice new jump drive. 

Canonicaly, the Earths did test their stolen Vilani artifacts.. errr..
their shiny new jump drive in the asteroid belt.
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 16:37:37 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Bank robbery

At 06:22 PM 5/31/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Really? Is that why they closed the rock?

They close dAlcatraz because it cost a fortune to run the place, was fairly
small, and the fed's had newer and better prisons.

After the last prisoner left, it sat empty and decaying for a few years,
until a group of Native Americans claimed it as tribal land.  That lead to
all sorts of court battles, and the amuseing image of the SFPD sailing in
little circles around The Rock since the Indians controled to only landing.
 They eventually left, and Alcatraz became a National Historical Site and
bird refuge.

Yes, I do work in the travel industry in San Francisco.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 15:36:15 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote in part:
>   The above sounds like an impossible situation for law enforcement
> units to accomplish anything. No records are cross-checked, no black
> boxes exist to be inspected occasionally, ship licensing is minimal,
> personnel, manifests, and passenger registers are not maintained or
> cross-checked. 

I agree. That's partly why I think piracy can be a going 
concern. Consider how difficult it would be for police if 
it took 2-3 weeks to get a confirmation of a ship 
ownership. Ok, so the Police carry copies of the local 
jurisdictions records, but the records can be many months 
out of date for some ships, especially for a system not on 
the main path, although storage is cheap, I'm not sure how 
much of the records will be stored on the average patrol 
vessel. There's  probably an industry in inserting false 
information into the distribution network (because it can 
take months or years for anyone to confirm this data with 
the theoretical original site. Think of a version Usenet where it 
takes at least a week for each hop, and there is no 
deja-news to check what was sent. Can you be sure you've 
got all the posts?

The merchants will get annoyed about being 
held for weeks while their ID is checked out, If the SDB 
needs to check with the home Starport, and it's around the 
Gas giant, then it might take a day just to get the 
information in-system. Perhaps each vessel carries a 
veri-signed digital signature, and the authorities rely on 
the unbreakability of the signature encryption for 
security. Given enough computer power and enough samples, 
anything is breakable, so it becomes a matter of how much 
trouble are the criminals prepared to go to, but then most 
security is a compromise like that.

> I'm surprised that any bank would loan money to any
> private individual(s) to throw away money on what is after all a 
> getaway car.

I think they'd only allow a certain limited number of 
planetfalls. (i.e. you're only allowed within 
subsector A" ) and spread the information outside that 
subsector to all the cops. If the ship shows up outside 
that subsector then it's skipped, and should be held 
pending verification. It's a bit sucky if you've just paid 
off the ship and the bank hasn't got around to telling 
everyone (or they've sent the messages, but they haven't 
arrived yet) 

Steve

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #538
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Traveller-digest        Monday, June 1 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 539



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Piracy Cargos vs ships
Re: Piracy
Re: Subs & Sandwiches
Re: Thoughts on sensors
Re: Jump points WRT stars
Product List for Megatraveller
Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product
Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)
Re: Piracy (long)
Re: X-boat Sandwiches
Armageddon - New SF RPG available on the Net
Spaceways Diary 006-1120
Re: Spaceways Diary 006-1120
Re: Piracy
Re: Planetary Geology Question, and possible Piracy synthesis

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:02:43 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Piracy Cargos vs ships

"William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU> wrote:
> Ships are readily traceable unless you carefully work to create a
> paper-trail allowing you a legal claim.

In the Real world (on the Piracy web pages that someone
was so kind to post) there was a ship hijacked and sailed
to a Chinese port, where they were unloading the cargo,
and a vigilant staff member of the shipping lines office
noticed the ship, and called in the cops. The Shipping
compant produced its papers to prove that they owned the
ship, and the "Pirates" produced theirs - the company
managed to prove that the pirates papers were forgeries.
So the Pirates produced a new set of better made papers,
which were proved to be forgeries, and the pirates
produced another even better set, and so on and so on.... 
Meanwhile the ship has been sitting at anchor with a leak 
so it started sinking, and got beached, the cargo is water 
logged and rotting, and the pirates have all been let out on
bail (and promptly disappeared). The Shipping company
still haven't got their ship back... 

Another problem is ships purporting to be chinese patrol 
boats that order shipping to port to be inspected, and 
unload all the cargo during inspection, and take it all 
away. The shipping company complain, and the Chinese 
government claims to have never heard of the incident. It's 
got so bad the Chinese Govt issued an official statement 
that those patrol boats aren't theirs.

Another ship with a load of Sugar was hijacked, and taken 
to a port in Africa, where it was discovered (but only 
because of instantaneous communications - not a factor 
IMTU) and the pirates were actually caught. Considered to 
have been very lucky.

Once they have the ships, apparently there is a business 
where the pirates contract to carry cargo from one place to 
another, and disappear en-route. The figure (IIRC) was 200 
Million Dollars a year in losses to this scam alone. 
 
(BTW, any idea how big you're ship has to be before the 
cargo is worth as much as the ship - consider Sugar, at ~$1 
per kilo, and (guessing at its density as being about 1.2) 
1200kg per m3, or 16800kg per dispT) - 400t Fat trader only 
has a cargo of 200dispT, or ~$3.36 Million. Better than a kick 
in the teeth for untraceable stuff. Now Steak at NZ$15 per 
Kg and a density of ~1 is 14000k per dispT or $210000 per 
dispT, a fat trader has $M42  (admittedly New Zealand 
doolars) of Steak on board. Even subtracting a lot for refridgeration 
and packing, that's a lot of money.

> Cargo theft is hard to trace (comparative volumes of respective items).

Apparently the sugar theft above was "done to order" 
someone had had a sugar order fall through, and the pirates 
offerered to get them some sugar, waited till a ship was 
being loaded with sugar, and hijacked it.
 
The Webpage was stunningly informative. I hadn't realised 
how prevalent piracy was in the modern world, with all the 
advantages of GPS, instant world wide communications, and a 
global market. Take away that instant communication

The reason the pirates use small boats in general is their 
speed, as bigger boats  aren't sufficiently faster than the 
targets to reliably catch them. Perhaps a 400t freighter 
with a load of fighters would be a better pirate vessel 
than a 400t corsair? (at least it would be better at 
pretending to be a merchant :-)

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 11:26:26 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy

Sat, 30 May 1998 00:53:58 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>Desires and expectations can often be out of whack with
>>reality.  I was watching a show that talked about the
>>lifesytle of pirates raiding shiping coming out of the
>>Spanish New World.  They looked at a record of what
>>they were capturing and there wasn't much gold and
>>silver in it.  It was a lot a routine stuff and they
>>were far from getting rich.

>  Sure. But very few pirates are going to stay illegal (or actually
>wait for a safe hit) once they realize that the rest of the time
>that means parking on jerk-water worlds roasting wild cattle on
>iron grills. Unless of course they're really Space Vikings and are
>into chicken stealing.

>  Buccaneering sounds romantic, but unless it starts to pay they
>might think about different career options.

Well, this show would argue differently.  Perhaps because they
are people with few "normal" skills and hence few other options.

However, I would indeed see piracy as something you do occaisionally
in lieu of something else, rather than waiting around to do.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 21:19:18 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Subs & Sandwiches

Sat, 30 May 1998 01:35:00 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>Fri, 29 May 1998 09:37:55 -0400, Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
>>> Now, look at jump lag and the time freighters spend in port, and give me
>>> three reasons why your bank will not, as a requirement of your starship
>>> mortgage, require you to notify your next port of call via the first
>>> available ship going there.

>>Because merchants don't like having to wait a week because
>>there isn't a ship going to where they want to go?  Or loose
>>out on a cargo that wants to be shipped today?  So they
>>just go to a competator and pay slightly higher insurance
>>rates?  Because the bank doesn't like to have spend a lot
>>of money making sure that the ships they finance are following
>>this provision?

> i) That presumes a very low traffic pattern; as previously stated,
>this is by defintion a low probability concern.

It presumes low traffic from the system you are at, to the system
you are going to, is low as some times.  It doesn't take that low
a traffic to have a gap of a few days.

There is also the issue of being willing to tell a competator your
plans.

>ii) So, you take the cargo and run. It happens. I guess you're getting
>paid enough to make up for not being able to carry passengers.

Which can happen easily.

>iii) Again, if insurance rates are only slightly higher then it
>effectively proves that the risk of loss is quite minimal.

I presumes piracy is uncommon.  (I don't know aobut "quite
minimal")  I've been saying that all along.

>iv) sending a letter (e-mail?) to the next system is expensive?

It requires a ship goes there.  That is the point.  There are no
other communications in Traveller.  There is no "e-mail".


____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 22:06:02 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Thoughts on sensors

>From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>Subject: Thoughts on sensors
...
>LIDARS useful to sensible combat ranges (a million km or so) appear to be
>small and cheap by military standards. The combat technique of trying to
>'scrub' a hull of surface features by use of long distance lasers and/or
>kinetic kill missiles has been suggested. I would think that it wouldnt be
>that hard to make LIDARS and PEMS massivly redundant (I am thinking about
>20 or so per warship), and have most of them behind blow-off or removable
>armour plates - 10 cm of crystaliron will stop any laser, and as LIDARS get
>damaged you just reveal new ones.
>
>Do people think this is possible ?

  Uh-oh, it's deja vu all over again. From the KKM debate (IIRC) the
backed-up sensors made sense. Also, killing the bus (or encouraging it
to deploy) at long range makes them pretty harmless.

  A variant on the above is putting some LIDARs on high-evasion drones
and parking them a few tens of kilometers away; you get the best aspects
of the high-end KKM bus design without the vulnerability of such units
being closer to enemy PD than your actual fighting platform. Presumably
some hit penalty would accrue for the added complications/time-lag.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 22:06:15 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Jump points WRT stars

>From: dberry@hooked.net
>Subject: Re: Jump points WRT stars
...
>I'm curious where the 4.5 AU figure comes from, since that gives the sun a
>diameter of 4.23 million miles.

  The 4.5 AU value comes from using the Jump limit being the gravity
gradient equal to that of earth's at 100 of its' diameters. Thus, most
planets close enough to their primary to be habitable will be well 
inside that limit.

  It makes for a radically different background; the one such I ran
also had slightly different rules for FTL travel.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 01:52:42 EDT
From: WmByrne33@aol.com
Subject: Product List for Megatraveller

Is there a product list for Megatraveller ?  I know of the one for CT and New
Era.

Thanks 
Will
wmbyrne33@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 06:11:03 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product

On Sun, 24 May 1998 22:15:26 -0700, Steven Hudson wrote:

> >Subject: Re: New "Classic" Traveller Product
> ...
> >> I am in the midst of talks with Andrew Keith about the possible release of
> >> his Classic Traveller book "Letter of Marque" 
> ...
> >Please add my name to the list of prospective buyers for the above.
> >Thank you.
> >
> >Jim Cooper
> 
>   If this book doesn't end up being available through any other
> channel then those of us in south-west BC could simply order all
> our copies together to avoid redundant customs fees (GST + $5!).
> Et tu, James?

Yup.



James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"
             ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

 "Be wewy wewy quiet... I'm hunting Womulins!!"
                         --Lt. Commander Fudd

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 00:02:24 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)

Hello,
>From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
>Subject: Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)
>
>(Steven Hudson) wrote in part:
>>   The above sounds like an impossible situation for law enforcement
>> units to accomplish anything. No records are cross-checked, no black
>> boxes exist to be inspected occasionally, ship licensing is minimal,
>> personnel, manifests, and passenger registers are not maintained or
>> cross-checked. 
>
>I agree. That's partly why I think piracy can be a going 
>concern. Consider how difficult it would be for police if 

  Keep in mind that the above was my assessment of a third party
suggested administration/enforcement scheme. I consider said
scheme to be too ineffective to be a credible alternative for my
own campaign.

>it took 2-3 weeks to get a confirmation of a ship 
>ownership. Ok, so the Police carry copies of the local 
>jurisdictions records, but the records can be many months 
>out of date for some ships, especially for a system not on 
>the main path, although storage is cheap, I'm not sure how 
>much of the records will be stored on the average patrol 

  One possibility between nearby systems with a particular eye
to security is to require non-scheduled flights to file a flight
plan with local control (if any, obviously) and to receive a 
flight ID # and the origin systems portion of a pre-identified/
authenticated one-write code pad specific to that flight ID #
and target system.

  Upon arrival, you forward your ID pack, and it's compared to
the previously delivered other half of the code. If it doesn't
match or you don't have an ID then you get pulled over (plus
maybe a 1% chance of the officials being bored? :> )

  AFAIK, one-write codes are effectively unbreakable, and of
course non-reusable.

>vessel. There's  probably an industry in inserting false 
>information into the distribution network (because it can 
>take months or years for anyone to confirm this data with 
>the theoretical original site. 

  Again, the ImperialLines (and intel services) question - there
must be either no overview of ship traffic records (IMO this is
unbelievable) or there is a sub-system which automatically allows
the interested parties to cover the tracks of their own covert
operations.

>The merchants will get annoyed about being 
>held for weeks while their ID is checked out,

  Well, eight AU's is a couple hours round trip, but the source
of the verification is the more important step (i.e., is it
practical or not, which it might not be). Again, most traffic will
be near the administration centers.

...
>planetfalls. (i.e. you're only allowed within 
>subsector A" ) and spread the information outside that 
>subsector to all the cops. If the ship shows up outside 
>that subsector then it's skipped, and should be held 
>pending verification.

  I'd suggest that pre-emptive registration like the above would
be a basic element of any vessel surveillance that the Imperium
might maintain - it's cheap, effectively bypasses the time-lag
issue, and is damned near fool-proof.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 00:44:18 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy (long)

>From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
>Subject: Piracy
>
>Steven Hudson wrote:
...
>no conventional revenue stream is possible, nor is "swim with the fishes"
>intrusion survivable.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>I keep wondering why people expect criminals to balance books,
>pay proper maintenance and otherwise act like honest businessmen.
>So they can't create a conventional revenue stream - neither are they
>paying taxes or doing a lot of things as they are expected to.
>You LS costs are going to be pretty low when you're stealing all the
>things that make it possible. 

  Well, the pirates need to make money, as the crew aren't going to be
keen on ponying up their savings to buy shares in an enterprise that's
losing money. Proper maintenance has a downside to avoidance; +1 to 
misjump - the Navy may not even have to chase you.

  FWIW, I consider the annual maintenance requirement to be avoidable
as long as the parts are purchased and skilled crew time is allocated.
The starport visitation detail is (IMO) unrealistic for our purposes.

  LS costs are broken, but the assumption of constant small hits on ships
(as opposed to facilities or worlds) is unworkable as near as I can tell.

  Any pirate that fails to _move_ like an honest (or average) merchant
is going to be waving a great big banner saying "put me on your hot
list". Again, said inspection will only be survivable if the ship itself
spends most of its' time trading, and is itself a legal merchant vessel.
This does assume modest analysis of traffic patterns (as reported by
starports and security vessels) by someone (IN?), but I would have to
consider the lack of this feature unrealistic.

>As for "swimming with the fishes" - the original CT Corsair ship
>(400 dtn, possibly the _Nishemani_ class as per DGP's SOM)
>has fake modules, extensible fins, variable radio emissions and
>variable transponders - obviously some deception effort was made.
>How effective these efforts will be depends on how often the Imperium
>boards ships in it's internal security patrols.

  I'm more concerned with being able to match a merchants activity
profile, and physical characteristics. A near-warship flitting
about is going to bleed red ink, and still cannot survive a physical
inspection, nor can it conceal its' long-term activity patterm (like
avoiding starports like the plague w/o generating legal income).

Remember, guns don't kill pirates; forensic accountants kill pirates.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Consider the chain of people it takes to get an ounce of cocaine
>to a deadbeat junkie on a New York city street, then tell me again
>that criminal groups can't form and work together for mutual profit. :)

  Capitalization is much lower. Besides, if that were a genuine
security concern it would be solved in short order (i.e., reduced
to a much lower equilibrium level). The comparison is not accurate.

>But seriously, the only organization I'm talking about is a couple weeks'
>mining work with a Seeker model scout (hidden asteroid base),
>a pile of supplies lifted from one of the hundreds of military caches,
>and a Free/Far Trader crew of challenged enough ethics to take on
>loads of cargo of questionable origin. If a couple pirate ships share
>bases (and only the Navigator needs know where the bases actually
>are, improving security), you've got yourself a syndicate - it can grow
>naturally, assuming a few pirates survive their entry into the business
>long enough to start planning for the future.

>Steve again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>snip>>>>>
>  What sort of armament (well, general performance and load-out) are
>you assuming for your pirate ship?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I'm assuming (based entirely on the way the Gazelle was laid
>out to discourage mutineers) that the performance and load-out
>of a pirate ship will be whatever the pirates can keep working
>from the small patrol vessel they stole in the first place.
>3G to 4G, more lasers than missiles - missiles make a mess of the
>vessel, and are hard to replace.

  Replace missiles with sand - supplies cash and reduces repair bills
from low-intensity combat. Reduce tankage for cargo - it seems 
impractical to have a stable of starships available. A small warship
(however low-end) is going to attract a lot of attention when it goes
missing, though, and even more when its' effects re-appear, yes?

>If you want to pick and choose your armament and load-out, you're
>talking about a purpose-built commerce raider, not a pirate.

  Agreed. Some debaters have tried that scam, though.

...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I see the pirate groups being small, even if they do have a base
>of operations - as you are pointing out, overly large groups or
>overly successful pirates get a visit from Light Cruisers.

  OK. The same or smaller base also supports a perfectly adequate
planetary (_not_ system) defense squadron, though.

...
>If you have a free port to sell ships in, enough spare crew aboard
>to pilot them there, enough fuel in the target's tank to jump away
>from the cavalry - this sounds like a pirate's dream haul, and 
>perhaps enough to retire on. This will happen how often?

  It's the ideal haul - all others are stepping stones to suicide
(removal from job market by attrition). If an armed response is on
the way then any target is inopportune; in a backwater or out-system
against non-Jump targets, you may very well have time to fuel up the
target or strip it bare.

>An I'm wondering how much you'd get on the black market for
>a used, battle-damaged stolen starship anyway. 25% of the sticker
>price may be optimistic, and that would be (for a Free Trader) 9.25MCr.
>That's enough cash (assuming you aren't paying black market prices)
>to replace two triple turrets full of beam lasers.

  MCr 9 even twelve ways lets some people retire; they can also sell
their own ship, which for a small warship is more like MCr 100.

...
>OK, I'll give you that one - as long as you'll admit that the existance
>of piracy is, in itself, Canon.  :)

  You've mistaken me for someone else. My case is that several types
of piracy can easily exist in a reasonably well-policed Imperium (OC,
not all will be successful), but that for internal consistency I need
to explore which ones will be how rare or effectively impossible.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 09:38:44 +0100
From: "Buston, John" <john.buston@eds.com>
Subject: Re: X-boat Sandwiches

>>...it would be very reasonable to have
>>ships carrying official bulletins in their computers to be downloaded to
>>the next StarPort Authority on the ship's arrival insystem.  (I'm
>>thinking we had this discussion before).  In that package there would be
>>information on all ships with filed flight plans, announced next ports
>>of call, anticipated dignitaries' itineraries, etc. for that port of
>>call.  It would be date stamped (Imperial time).

> Don't X-boats and couriers do this sort of thing? Presumably also
>mail-contracts may handle some electronic work in some jurisdictions
>(although unlikely for security reasons, I guess).

IMO the Imperium would be very concerned about using X-boats for non
imperial mail. Otherwise enemies of the Imperium could use the X-boat
system to their advantage against the Imperium (by sending coded
messages hidden in innocent looking documents, etc.). As the political
process would be slow to enact imperial edicts this would put the
enemies one jump ahead.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 09:54:09 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: Armageddon - New SF RPG available on the Net

Sorry to instrude and waste some bandwidth ... I apologise in advance if you
have no interest at all ...

I have just finished a new SF-Horror-(sort of)Time Travel RPG called
"Armageddon" which is available in PDF format (you get to print it out!), though
professionally laid out, from --

www.hyperbooks.com

More information and some downloadable maps as a sample maps at my web page ...

www.fandom.net/~PGD/index.htm

It may be of some interest to you, and costs only $18 for 380 pages in three
Books, #1 Basic Rules; #2 Here and Now (Modern Characters and Background); #3
There and Then (The World of the 25th Millennia).

Who am I to be so bold as to want to flog his own "home brew" rules and
background, even if done semi-professionally?

Well, as the .sig suggests, I was one of the original three authors of Space
Opera many years ago, and also did three supplements for that game system; I
also did two supplements fof FGU's "Aftermath" game and some work for some of
the Chivalry and Sorcery system.

More recently, well, I did Rigger Black Book (the original one, not RBB II) for
FASA and am currently working on a Sourcebook for Ancient Rome (from the
Republic to the Late [Byzantine] Empire) for a startup company and, possibly,
have some work in developing elements of a new SF RPG system for another startup
company.

Anyway, what does this all mean? Well, I'm not a complete nobody ... and you may
even have seen (and, I hope, liked) or heard of my previous efforts ... so check
out the latest and greatest!

Like I said, sorry if you're not interested.

Phil

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au | www.fandom.net/~PGD/index.htm
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YES! StaRPlay:Armageddon and Dark Star are now available from www.hyperbooks.com
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU); Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 11:25:29 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Spaceways Diary 006-1120

Spaceways Diary: 006-1120 

Robin/Trin's Veil

Cleanup details continue to work around the clock to repair the damage
taken by Robin Starport in a recent asteroid near-miss. The rogue asteroid,
intended for conversion to a guardship or monitor, was in transit to a
parking station, ready for conversion, when its thruster unit
malfunctioned. The asteroid was feared to be on a collision course with the
Port Asteroid.

Commander Wallace Ingai declared a State of Emergency when the civilian
Port Governor failed to act decisively, with Navy personnel and Marines
securing the installation while a team of experts comprising
Lieutenant-Commander Rodgar, IN (Retd), Dr Ernest Smit, Xaviiar Kaii
(ex-Scout Service) and Lieutenant Harris Smit (on furlough from the 112th
Lift Infantry) approached the asteroid to plant charges. 

A previous attempt to deflect the rock was made by the IN destroyer Gorrane
(Commander Eriise, MCUF and Bar), which launched its entire arsenal of
nuclear-tipped missiles at the rogue asteroid in a high-speed interception
from the destroyer's outsystem patrol zone. This brave attempt failed, and
served merely to complicate the experts' task due to debris and radiation.

The team approached the asteroid in the station's Rescue Cutter and managed
to deploy two multi-megaton warheads in a crater on the asteroid's surface.
This location was chosen by Dr Smit, who was badly injured in a vacc suit
rupture soon afterward. The doctor is recovering in hospital.

Commendations were made for the extremely able piloting of Lt-Comdr Rodgar,
Dr Smit's excellent judgment and Lt. Smit's expertise in nuclear
demolitions. Scout Kaii was also commended for assembling the team and for
his timely intervention (and effective) in a hazardous riot control
situation.

The asteroid was broken into several diverging fragments by the charges.
All the larger fragments missed the Port Asteroid, though heavy damage was
sustained from smaller debris. A special posthumous Mention In Dispatches
was made of the entire crew of the SDB Havoc (Sublieutenant Andrea Ilviian,
IN), which positioned itself over the main habitation zone and attempted to
intercept the smaller rock fragments with laser fire. Several such
fragments were destroyed before the Havoc was herself struck. The gallant
SDB was lost with all hands, striving in the finest traditions of the
Imperial Navy to protect the citizens of the Imperium.

In the words of Commander Ingai 'This was a potential catastrophe, averted
only by the bravery and competence of a few individuals, not all of whom
had a sworn duty to act. We salute their courage and sacrifice. Without
them, this appalling situation would have been far worse.'

Joharn Kellis, (freelance Journalist).

Trin Interstellar News.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 22:42:29 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Spaceways Diary 006-1120

From:           	"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
To:             	<traveller-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM>
Subject:        	Spaceways Diary 006-1120
Date sent:      	Mon, 1 Jun 1998 11:25:29 +0100
Send reply to:  	traveller@mpgn.com

> Spaceways Diary: 006-1120 

Just a few very minor points: the formal abbreviation for retired is (ret) not (retd) 
and a subsequent award of a medal would be written MCUF* not (MCUF and 
bar), three awards would be MCUF** etc.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++++ su+ ge

************************************************************
Of course its safe, I made it myself
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 03:18:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Piracy

In mail you write:

> On Sat, 30 May 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> On the other hand, if approaching system patrol craft are a problem,
>> then you aren't likely to be able to disable the merhant quickly enough
>> *anyway*. Not unless you've got some way f getting *really* close
>> un-noticed. 
>> 
>> If an approaching patrol *isn't* a problem, then you are interested in
>> the ship if it's at all easy to repair. It gives you more ships to work
>> with. 
>
> This i really dependent on your man-power I think. You might not have the
> men to spare for another crew, so you take the cargo and anything else on
> the ship that is easily removed (computers, mainboards, vacc-suits, maybe
> even the rescue pod or other small craft.) 

Sure, if you don't have the manpower, you don't have the manpower.
Though even then I'd be tempted to see if I could program the ship to
attempt a jump to our base. If it worked, great, if not, no big deal.

>> Which leads to the *big* problem with being a pirate. Annual
>> maintenance. In the days of sail, the ship'screw could do any
>> maintenance needed short of a major catastrophe. And they could do it
>> on their own. At worst they needed to lay in a supply of lumber at
>> their base.
>> 
>> But what's a pirate in the Imperium going to do? He not only needs to
>> be able to sell his cargoes, he needs to be able to buy ordinance, and
>> get battle damage repaired. And the annual maintenance is a killer.
>> Because as you note, he's likely to be *known* by then. So he needs a
>> Class B port that doesn't *care* that he's a pirate. 
>
> All he needs is an engineer to fix that which dosn't work. I really don't
> think that the pirate ship will be tip top shape, but it will run
> (possibly) when needed. It will be patched up, parts replaced by stolen
> goods, refits, refits and refits. A half way decent engineer and this is
> definitly possible (at least IMTU). 

Sorry, but there are units on ships that you *can't* repair with the
tools on board. In fact, you'd have the devil's own time just getting
the busted one out and the replacement in without access to shipyard
facilities. Otherwise, the annual maintenance rules go out the window. 

Those rules amount to saying that there are things on a ship that
*require* shipyard facilities to work on. Maybe they are things like
the main supports for the drive or powerplant (apt to be castings
weighing tons and meters across). Or some gizmo required for
"calibration" is too big to fit in a ship (modern example would be the
gear required to "balance" the props and propeller shafts on a ship). 

Ditto for the gear required to cut open the "hard patches" on the hull
to get at these assemblies. You can do it with ordinary gear, but
moving that large chunk of hull is hazardous to your health without a
shipyard crane. Also, you'll want the gear to "xray" the welds for
soundness when you replace the patch. You don't want to find out about
a flawed weld by having the patch come open at a critical moment.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 04:12:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Planetary Geology Question, and possible Piracy synthesis

In mail you write:

> I'm thinking about asteroid and other mining, and the obvious question
> comes up, do we have a geologist on the list ?
>
> If we dont, I'll have to fake it.
>
> Veins of ore are fundamentally formed by volcanic activity, and the action
> of wind and water - in other words, by 'live' worlds, not by chunks of rock
> in space.
>
> Asteroids, therefore, are going to be of constant composition. This is
> usually very bad - an entire asteroid of 99.5% nickle iron, 0.0045 percent
> lead and 0.005 percent silver is unlikely to be exploitable, regardless of
> the raw amount of silver 50 parts per million represents. On the other
> hand, a 1% silver, 95% nickle iron, 4% lead asteroid may be worth exploiting.

Check back in the archives. I posted some stuff about this only six
months or so back. 

Here's the short version. 

Planetismals form from the ice/gas/dust of the nebula the system is
forming from. When they get big enough, the radioisotopes present
(remember, they tend to have a *much* higher proportion of shortlived
isotopes!) cause melting. The "dust" settles to the center leaving a
layer of "ice" over a layer of dusty material. If they are bigg enough
the dust ball in the center melts as well. This settles into a stony
layer, and a center that's composed mostly of nickel-iron and any other
metals that *don't* have an afinity for silicates (those wind up in the
stony part). 

Collisions will break off pieces giving you ice chuknks, ice/stone
chunks, stone chunks, stony/nickel-iron chunks, and nickel iron chunks.

> I have absolutely no idea about carbonaceous asteroids.

Once the star starts up, you get the ices melting on the nearer chunks,
and gases being driven off as well as reactions caused by the UV from
the star. That's what carbonaceous asteroids are. The result of
"baking" water/ammonia/methane ice while exposing it to UV. You get
tarry mess, consist of all sorts of CHON (carbon, Hydrogen, oxygen,
nitrogen) compounds.

So close to the star you get carbonaceous, stone and "iron" bodies.
Farther out, the carbonaceus become icy bodies. Note that this will
likely be *beyond* Jupiter, as small icy bodies aren't stable that
close in.

> Ice asteroids are valuable, because ice is hydrogen and water, and both of
> those have lots of uses.

The ice is a *mixture* of water, ammonia, and methane. It *isn't* just
water.

The hydrogen is valuable. But the nitrogen may be even more valuable,
as it's badly needed for thing like food production (can't have
protiens without nitrogen). 

So ice is valuable, and CHON is *very* valuable. Stony material is
so/so. Nickel iron is ok if you want them, or you want to build an
armored base.

Mind you, there are lots of *other* things in both stony and
nickel-iron bodies. Stony is *mostly* silicon, aluminum, magnesium,
titanium and oxygen. Just like the earth's crust. But there are
reasonable amounts of other stuff in there. 

But for both Stony and nickel-iron you are going to have to "refine"
the asteroid to get the other stuff. Because the processes that
concentrate them on earth just won't be there. On the other hand,
consider that 1 part per *billion* in a cubic kilometer of rock gives
you a one meter cube. And I don't know about you, but I'd like a cubic
meter of gold, platinum, silver, etc just fine. :-)

> From what we know about our system, at least some moons have volcanic
> activity. Volcanic activity can create seams of valuable minerals, and it
> doesnt matter if as a whole the moon has the uranium content of your
> average sandpit, if the bit you've found is enough parts per million to be
> exploitable.

> Now, this seems to imply that in a system with moons, you are going to have
> a chance of a number of small, vulnerable sub-colonies engaging in mining
> and exploration activity. This is going to be happening a long way away
> from the mainworld, and thus away from the mainworld's sensors, defenses
> and so on.

Trouble is, with fusion power, it's not that hard to just process an
entire asteroid into it's component elements. And while volcanic
activity can create seams of minerals, it's *water* plus volcanic
activity that does so here on earth. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #539
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Traveller-digest        Monday, June 1 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 540



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Bank robbery
Re: Plot Device Wanted
Piracy
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #538
Re: Planetary Geology
Re: Turnlengths & physics (was Re: Coordinated Jumps)
Re: Piracy
Re: Piracy
Re: Bank robbery
Re: Piracy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 04:35:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Bank robbery

In mail you write:

> On Sun, 31 May 1998 02:30:43 EDT, you wrote:
>
>> I recall hearing *somewhere* (for whatever that's worth, as I don't
>> recall the source) that said there's been no successful bank robbery
>> (meaning the culprits were never caught) since the early 20 century
>> AD.  It might've taken a few years, but eventually... Of course,
>> this *is* scuttlebut, so u can happily ignore me. : )

> I thought the guy who parachuted out of the plane with the money he
> stole from a bank was never caught...

D.B. Cooper didn't rob a bank. He hijacked a plane and demanded the
money. He's something of a local legend. Alas, they *did* find portions
of a few bills about 10 years back. They found them in a spottwhere
dredging "spoil" had been dumped recently. This tends to confirm the
theory that he came down in the middle of the Columbia river. 

Other likely theories are that he came down in heavy woods and got hung
up in a tree and couldn't get down, or broke a leg or to in the
process. Given that we've had folks stumble over 20 and 40 year oild
plane wrecks in the woods, it's not that unlikely that his corpse was
up in a tree till it fell apart. And the money is lining a rodent den
somewhere. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 03:36:16 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Plot Device Wanted

In mail you write:

>>So, how can a large explosion be produced, preferably destroying the
>>ship and a decent chunk of the highport, which will still look like an
>>accident?
>
> Contrary to what other posters have said, my feeling is that a hydrogen
> leak would not produce an explosion large enought to destroy the ship, let
> alone a chunk of the highport. Hydrogen explosions are pretty impressive,
> just look at the Challenger, but I don't think that enough hydrogen and
> oxygen can be brought together quickly enought by "accident" inside a ship
> to destroy it. A typical ship is broken into several small gas-tight
> compartments, and any hydrogen leaking would progably react with the air or
> ship contents slowly and without pyrotechnics, rather than building up to
> fireball proportions before combusting. I would think that, after a few
> millenia of space travel, engineers would have perfected ways of
> eliminating sudden explosions.

There's no need to bring the stuff together "quickly". if the ration of
hydrogen to oxygen is too low, nothing happens. Ditto for too high. And
once the mix is in the (fairly narrow) explosive range, you need an
ignition source.

You *can't* prevent explosions except by catching leaks early. As I
note above, once you get the right mixture it *will* explode given a
spark or heat source. The seperation of the ship into sections will
help limit things. Still, in port, and even in flight on passenger
carrying vessels, it won't be at all unusual to have the airtight doors
between sections *open*.

If sensors detect loss of pressure, or a hydrogen leak, the doors
would be closed automatically. That's why my scenario had the sensors
"fail" (actually get deliberately bypassed). And note that I had the
port wanting blood for letting the sensors system get into the state
were they *could* fail. 

> IMTU, starships dock outside a highport or are serviced by port shuttles;
> this reduces congestion around the highport and prevents smugglers or
> terrorists gaining direct access to the port. 

That's equivalent to requiring modern ships to be loaded by cargo
lighters rather than by autonmated loading gear at a loading wharf.
Ain't gonna happen. Ships with only a few containers to transfer may do
this. Anybody with a substantial cargo to transfer will dock to a
loading port on the station. 

And it's a lot more convenient to be docked to the station while you do
business. You can use station power (so your engineer can tinker with
the power plant). You can use *wired* comm links, thus cutting down the
chances of eavesdropping. You can get from the ship to the station (and
vice versa) a lot faster.

> Even if your ship is in a hangar or some kind of internal drydock,
> the station armor may run inside the hangar, so that the force of any
> explosion woiuld be directed outward.

Internal hangars *aren't* all that likely except for small craft. Too
many things that can go wrong. Plus, if a ship exploded in one, the
atmosphere in it would help *cause* damage. If the "inner" side was
stronger, you'd *probably* blow the outer hull. You'd also damage the
hell out of any ships with hulls weaker than that. And then the pieces
from the exploding ship will do a number on that "inner hull".

And the station *won't* be "armored". No real point in it. Enough armor
to stop military weapons costs too damn much. There will be some
shielding against solar flares, and there will be proctection against
micrometeorites and "paint flake" type space junk.

But exploding ships aren't goinmg to be that common. And the station's
hull can be breached by the pieces of a ship that goes "boom".

> Starport regulations may also require ships docking internally be unarmed.
> In short, an explosion that destroys your ship would probably not affect
> the port too much.

Only if your ship isn't anywhere *near* the port. And even if it isn't,
there's still a chance that a chunk of your ship (possibly weighing
*tons*) will crash into it fast enough to penetrate. 

If you are docked to the port, then the nearby sections will get
bombarded with pieces of ship, but it shouldn't affect the inner layers
of the port much.

It probably helps to realize that the port is likely to be a sort of
"core" with spokes sticking out at various angles. The ships dock to
the spokes, which would merely be *strong* tubes with cargo and people
moving gear running through the inside. 

So the blast could go as far as "cutting" the spoke, and killing people
on the wrong side of the airtight doors when they close. Aside from the
casualties, you'd *really* piss off anyone docked farther "out" on the
spoke, as they'd have to move to another one, or use shuttles until the
spoke was repaired.

And of course, the pieces could puncture other sections of that spoke
or nearby spokes.

Another likely layout is for a station using spin gravity and having
ships dock to the outer surface of the cylinder. C.J. Cherryh's books
use this a lot. It has a lot of advantages, as you can't loose station
gravity short of breaking it into pieces. And the only power required
for gravity is that required to "trim" the station's rotation. 

> A better idea is an out-of control ship crashing into the highport; this
> would probably destroy the ship and do considerable damage to the port.
> Depending on local laws, a ship whose trajectory intersects the station's
> may be blown out of space without a warning, but even a pile of debris
> hitting the station at a few km/s should do a bit of damage.

At 3 km/sec an object has a KE equivalent to the same mass in TNT. And
the energy goes up as the *square* of the velocity. In other words, you
are talking about subjecting the station to a small to medium yield
*nuke*. That's liable to *destroy* the station. 

> If you really want to blow the highport up, how about "accidentally"
> launching some nuke-det missiles at it? The combat rules for nukes assume
> they detonate far away from the target, which is only hit by the
> nuke-pumped lasers. Actually hitting a station would probably blow away a
> huge chunk of it and make the rest unusable. Of course, TL12 and above
> stations probably have nuclear dampers installed to prevent precisely this
> kind of thing.

The nuke *can't* do blast damage unless it is in *contact* with the
station when it goes off. No shock waves in a vacuum. 

That's why a ship exploding is interesting. The blast itself can't do
much to the station. But the pieces of ship thrown out by the blast
*can*. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 08:27:36 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Piracy

Steve Hudson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>An I'm wondering how much you'd get on the black market for
>a used, battle-damaged stolen starship anyway. 25% of the sticker
>price may be optimistic, and that would be (for a Free Trader) 9.25MCr.
>That's enough cash (assuming you aren't paying black market prices)
>to replace two triple turrets full of beam lasers.

  MCr 9 even twelve ways lets some people retire; they can also sell
their own ship, which for a small warship is more like MCr 100.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
How much does a new identity cost? I've heard MCr1 bandied about
for a dependable one - and remember you need enough to for a greedy,
irresponsible person to retire on, not just get a new start - I think 
we've already established that if a pirate could function normally in
society, she would. :)

Here's an idea - how many people that the Imperium call Pirates call
themselves Pirates? How many are Geonee seperatists, Ine Givar
terrorists, Megacorp black ops anti-competitor teams, or whatever?
The first two might have to act as normal pirates (no support available),
but be willing to put up with the danger and low pay for "the cause".
The last one might pretend to be pirates, but have new identities and
fat retirement bonuses waiting for them at the end of their cruise.

Many historical pirates were escaped slaves or dirt-poor people from
undeveloped countries. If the average wage on your homeworld is
subsistence or less, and the average lifespan is 30-something, 
the dangerous and insanely risky pirate career might look very
attractive.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 22:20:29
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #538

>From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
>Subject: Piracy
>

>
>I keep wondering why people expect criminals to balance books,
>pay proper maintenance and otherwise act like honest businessmen.
>So they can't create a conventional revenue stream - neither are they
>paying taxes or doing a lot of things as they are expected to.
>You LS costs are going to be pretty low when you're stealing all the
>things that make it possible. 
>

Relying on capturing a ship often enough to keep your air filters sounds
like a quick way to die to me, and most orginised criminals keep excellent
accounts.

>As for "swimming with the fishes" - the original CT Corsair ship
>(400 dtn, possibly the _Nishemani_ class as per DGP's SOM)
>has fake modules, extensible fins, variable radio emissions and
>variable transponders - obviously some deception effort was made.
>How effective these efforts will be depends on how often the Imperium
>boards ships in it's internal security patrols.

This is a cost/benefit thing. I think the cost of inspecting a ship when it
is in port is fairly low, therefore this will happen at least occasionally.
Most definitly when a ship limps into a starport with battle damage.

>Consider the chain of people it takes to get an ounce of cocaine
>to a deadbeat junkie on a New York city street, then tell me again
>that criminal groups can't form and work together for mutual profit. :)
>

Most of the groups involved in this chain are good at accounts,
cost/benefit analysis and so on.

>But seriously, the only organization I'm talking about is a couple weeks'
>mining work with a Seeker model scout (hidden asteroid base),
>a pile of supplies lifted from one of the hundreds of military caches,
>and a Free/Far Trader crew of challenged enough ethics to take on
>loads of cargo of questionable origin. If a couple pirate ships share
>bases (and only the Navigator needs know where the bases actually
>are, improving security), you've got yourself a syndicate - it can grow
>naturally, assuming a few pirates survive their entry into the business
>long enough to start planning for the future.

Again, I dont think you could do annual maintainence at such a base. As a
point for transhipping cargo OTOH it works (pick an ice asteroid as a fuel
source).

>
>Steve again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>snip>>>>>
>  What sort of armament (well, general performance and load-out) are
>you assuming for your pirate ship?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I'm assuming (based entirely on the way the Gazelle was laid
>out to discourage mutineers) that the performance and load-out
>of a pirate ship will be whatever the pirates can keep working
>from the small patrol vessel they stole in the first place.
>3G to 4G, more lasers than missiles - missiles make a mess of the
>vessel, and are hard to replace.

Sort of. Civilian-grade missiles can probably be bought over-the-counter by
our resupply crew.

I really, really think stealing a Navy ship would get you in trouble. I
think renegade Vargr would be a better chance, or a beefed-up Far Trader
(say, 20 dtons of TL12 batteries and 2G of HEPLAR, plus a 450 or so
megajoule spinal laser ... hmmmmm).

>Steve again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>If you have a free port to sell ships in, enough spare crew aboard
>to pilot them there, enough fuel in the target's tank to jump away
>from the cavalry - this sounds like a pirate's dream haul, and 
>perhaps enough to retire on. This will happen how often?

This is why I'd take a Far Trader along with collapsible fuel tanks and
extra crew - refuel the captured ship from it, and then have it limp to
your freeport.

>
>An I'm wondering how much you'd get on the black market for
>a used, battle-damaged stolen starship anyway. 25% of the sticker
>price may be optimistic, and that would be (for a Free Trader) 9.25MCr.
>That's enough cash (assuming you aren't paying black market prices)
>to replace two triple turrets full of beam lasers.

Depends if you can get it into another jurisdiction. Again, I think you'd
get a better price in the Vargr Extents or the Sword Worlds.

This could also be a cool campaign hook for a group of players - they
unwittingly buy a Far Trader that got captured by pirates two owners back,
and the original owners trace it.

>
>OK, I'll give you that one - as long as you'll admit that the existance
>of piracy is, in itself, Canon.  :)

The main question for us anti-piracy people is 'what do we have to do to
make piracy possible' - Pirates as the Traveller equivalent of Wandering
Monsters sticks in my craw, given the Hard SF emphasis of the game.

>Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 01:45:24 -0700
>From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>Subject: Oops?
>
>
>>For the reasons Hans, Steve and myself have documented, piracy is very
>>unlikely to happen in or near mainworlds. I will have to check this with my
>>factional colleagues (guys, meet at 1040 GMT tonight on efnet's
>>#Piratesmustdiediedie to plot strategy),
>
>  Gee, I was busy getting my butt kicked (repeatedly) at Settlers
>of Catann (great game, though). Does this mean I have to undergo
>a session of self-criticism, Comrade?
>

No, but it does mean you are buying the drinks next time. Do it again and
we make you the Vice-President in charge of Leroy Gautney (oooooh, now that
is a brutal piece of factional bastardry).

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 22:20:10
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Planetary Geology

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: Planetary Geology Question, and possible Piracy synthesis
>
>In mail you write:
>
>Check back in the archives. I posted some stuff about this only six
>months or so back. 
>

Yeah, I think it was what I was remembering.

>Here's the short version. 
>
>So ice is valuable, and CHON is *very* valuable. Stony material is
>so/so. Nickel iron is ok if you want them, or you want to build an
>armored base.
>

How valuable ? Which side of KCr 1000 per displacement ton ?

>Mind you, there are lots of *other* things in both stony and
>nickel-iron bodies. Stony is *mostly* silicon, aluminum, magnesium,
>titanium and oxygen. Just like the earth's crust. But there are
>reasonable amounts of other stuff in there. 
>

Stupid question time. I take it the amount of 'other stuff' will vary from
asteroid to asteroid, and not be constant across a system ?

>But for both Stony and nickel-iron you are going to have to "refine"
>the asteroid to get the other stuff. Because the processes that
>concentrate them on earth just won't be there. On the other hand,
>consider that 1 part per *billion* in a cubic kilometer of rock gives
>you a one meter cube. And I don't know about you, but I'd like a cubic
>meter of gold, platinum, silver, etc just fine. :-)
>

The problem is how hard is that cubic meter to get out ...

>Trouble is, with fusion power, it's not that hard to just process an
>entire asteroid into it's component elements. And while volcanic
>activity can create seams of minerals, it's *water* plus volcanic
>activity that does so here on earth. 

*shhhhhhh* If we allow fusion power plants to power dirty great big mass
spectrometers, then mined resources of all sorts get to become a non-issue,
and we lose all those mining colonies. I say keep the moon-mining colonies,
especially in all those yukky atmosphere, high volcanic activity moons *grin*

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 08:58:37 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Turnlengths & physics (was Re: Coordinated Jumps)

[snip]
>>As it happens, figuring that 1 G-turn is 1 hex/turn is off by about 8%, but
>>that's a rounding error.  Other than that, my rules are correct, because they
>>are correct physics (technically, they are newtonian physics and won't work
>>over really extreme velocities, but that's a nonfactor in the combat system).
>
>Do you understand what we're talking about here? If not I'll fill you in:
>If I have a certain hexscale and use past->present->future markers to
>depict my ships location and speed what turnlength should I use if I want a
>1 hex velocity change represent 1G of acceleration?
[snip]

The person at top is actually talking about what *I* was looking for.
Physics accurate modelling, as compared to the ease of use model that
Anders seems to be talking about (and apparently is used in Mayday and BL).
I want to *know* what's wrong with the more gameplay friendly model, and if
it doesn't add too much complexity, I'll look for the more physics correct
model.

Meanwhile, I was always under the impression that the vector based movement
system using past and future positions and 1 hex/turn acceleration = 1G
*was* a physics accurate system (I mean truly accurate, not "close enough").

>Lets compare the two formulae and set acceleration(a) = 2.0, turnlength(t)
>= 1.0 for convenience
>(1) d = 1/2 * a * t^2
>(2) d = a * t^2
>Lets look at a ship that is constantly accelerating over a number of turns
>and see:
>Turn    (1)             (2)             Reality
>===============================================
>1       1               2               1
>2       1+2=3           6               4
>3       3+3=6           12              9
>4       6+4=10          20              16
>5       10+5=15         30              25
>6       15+6=21         42              36 etc
>
>Can you see that (2) approaches Reality as the number of simulated turns
>increase and that (1)
>approaces 1/2 * Reality. Thus my statement that if the game should only
>play for 1 gameturns
>use (1) if there are suppoesed to be more than 1 gameturn of maneuvering
>use (2).

Ok now I'm really confused, and maybe this is why I've had a hard time
absorbing some of Anders' statements; I thought (still think) d= 1/2 * a *
t^2 *was* "Reality".  Now you show me a table with a new column labelled
"Reality" which does not match the column labelled "(1)".  Perhaps, Anders,
you are thinking of something other than what I am thinking of when you are
talking about method (1)?

In any case, I think there is a disconnect here somewhere.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 15:02:56 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Piracy

On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
> 
> > All he needs is an engineer to fix that which dosn't work. I really don't
> > think that the pirate ship will be tip top shape, but it will run
> > (possibly) when needed. It will be patched up, parts replaced by stolen
> > goods, refits, refits and refits. A half way decent engineer and this is
> > definitly possible (at least IMTU). 
> 
> Sorry, but there are units on ships that you *can't* repair with the
> tools on board. In fact, you'd have the devil's own time just getting
> the busted one out and the replacement in without access to shipyard
> facilities. Otherwise, the annual maintenance rules go out the window. 

But the annual maintenance is to insure that the ship is in *good* working
order. Many piratvessels will of course not be in this state as the annual
maintanence is skipped over and over again. The vessels will IMO be
patchworks of stolen and cheap bought equipment. Give the pirates a base
and time any good engineer could do most annual maintance *if needed*. It
will not be state of the art work, but it will propably work at least.    

> Those rules amount to saying that there are things on a ship that
> *require* shipyard facilities to work on. Maybe they are things like
> the main supports for the drive or powerplant (apt to be castings
> weighing tons and meters across). Or some gizmo required for
> "calibration" is too big to fit in a ship (modern example would be the
> gear required to "balance" the props and propeller shafts on a ship). 

Going to todays example there is propably hundreds of vessels that don't
receive the maintance it need to be in *good* shape. Even Norwegian ships,
and we are a rather rich nation, has run ashore or gone down because of
the shape they were in.   

> Ditto for the gear required to cut open the "hard patches" on the hull
> to get at these assemblies. You can do it with ordinary gear, but
> moving that large chunk of hull is hazardous to your health without a
> shipyard crane. Also, you'll want the gear to "xray" the welds for
> soundness when you replace the patch. You don't want to find out about
> a flawed weld by having the patch come open at a critical moment.

To recap wath you said of the pirates on wood sail ships. They could
repair hull damage with wood and nails, but this work was propably not as
good as it would be if the damage was repaired at a shipyard in England.
This is the same, but I guess it comes down to how you see the ships built
IYTU (or me IMTU :-)
 
> -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 23:05:27
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Piracy

>Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:02:43 +1200
>From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
>Subject: Piracy Cargos vs ships
>
>In the Real world (on the Piracy web pages that someone
>was so kind to post) there was a ship hijacked and sailed
>to a Chinese port, where they were unloading the cargo,
>and a vigilant staff member of the shipping lines office
>noticed the ship, and called in the cops. The Shipping
>compant produced its papers to prove that they owned the
>ship, and the "Pirates" produced theirs - the company
>managed to prove that the pirates papers were forgeries.
>So the Pirates produced a new set of better made papers,
>which were proved to be forgeries, and the pirates
>produced another even better set, and so on and so on.... 
>Meanwhile the ship has been sitting at anchor with a leak 
>so it started sinking, and got beached, the cargo is water 
>logged and rotting, and the pirates have all been let out on
>bail (and promptly disappeared). The Shipping company
>still haven't got their ship back... 
>

This is what I'd call 'State sponsored piracy' - the local State, really
doesnt give a damn and is in effect a freeport. If the State did give a
damn, then the first failed attempt to use forged papers would have got you
arrested and in the slammer awaiting trial.

>Another problem is ships purporting to be chinese patrol 
>boats that order shipping to port to be inspected, and 
>unload all the cargo during inspection, and take it all 
>away. The shipping company complain, and the Chinese 
>government claims to have never heard of the incident. It's 
>got so bad the Chinese Govt issued an official statement 
>that those patrol boats aren't theirs.

Again, this requires passive State support. But it's a neat scam.

>Once they have the ships, apparently there is a business 
>where the pirates contract to carry cargo from one place to 
>another, and disappear en-route. The figure (IIRC) was 200 
>Million Dollars a year in losses to this scam alone. 
> 

That works just as well for ships about to engage in barratry - stock up on
a really high value cargo, then skip out.

A variant on this is the old 'fake broker' trick. You contract to carry
cargoes from place to place, the redirect them en route to a third port,
where they are sold, with you pocketing the proceeds, quietly closing your
office and moving to another jurisdiction.

A second variant is the old 'we wuz robbed' trick. You quietly drop off
somewhere, sell your cargo and claim it was taken by pirates.

A third variant is the old 'meet you at x' trick. You pre-arrange a meeting
with the pirates, get paid up front, get shot up a little, surrender, lose
your cargo and then claim 'we wuz robbed', but this time with evidence.

>(BTW, any idea how big you're ship has to be before the 
>cargo is worth as much as the ship - consider Sugar, at ~$1 
>per kilo, and (guessing at its density as being about 1.2) 
>1200kg per m3, or 16800kg per dispT) - 400t Fat trader only 
>has a cargo of 200dispT, or ~$3.36 Million. Better than a kick 
>in the teeth for untraceable stuff. Now Steak at NZ$15 per 
>Kg and a density of ~1 is 14000k per dispT or $210000 per 
>dispT, a fat trader has $M42  (admittedly New Zealand 
>doolars) of Steak on board. Even subtracting a lot for refridgeration 
>and packing, that's a lot of money.

You're quoting retail rather than wholesale. I'd say you'd get 1/3 of those
prices.

I once had a flatmate who worked in an international freight company, and
he claimed by manipulating paperwork he could steal 2 000 tons of peanuts
overnight. Of course, they would be sitting in a warehouse in East Africa ...

The critical issue in stealing the cargo vs stealing the ship is what I
call 'cargo density' - how valuable is the cargo per cubic meter. Vanilla
traveller cargos are very low density (circa KCr 10 per displacement ton)
compared to Traveller cargo ships (circa KCr 500 per displacement ton).

>
>> Cargo theft is hard to trace (comparative volumes of respective items).
>
>Apparently the sugar theft above was "done to order" 
>someone had had a sugar order fall through, and the pirates 
>offerered to get them some sugar, waited till a ship was 
>being loaded with sugar, and hijacked it.
> 

A major difference between RW and Traveller shipping is that in the real
world, ships spend much to almost all of their space outside the sensor
range of ports. Traveller sensors easily extend to the 100 diameter limit,
and there is no reason for any merchant ship to go far outside that limit
during normal operations. Needless to say, IMO hanging out just outside the
100 diameter visit gets you a couple of messages from the local
authorities, followed up by a visit from a patrol craft.

My view is that what piracy happens happens in the Outsystem, especially to
(and by) Belters, Moon Miners and other such lowlives. Any merchant ships
going to such places will go there armed for bear, and will be paid
appropriate risk premiums for their trouble (you can just forget about
Cr1000 per dton in an area of known pirate activity). Therefore in a very
real sense, merchant would be able to choose the riskiness of their
operations.

>The Webpage was stunningly informative. I hadn't realised 
>how prevalent piracy was in the modern world, with all the 
>advantages of GPS, instant world wide communications, and a 
>global market. Take away that instant communication

The global market is actually an advantage for piracy. I can think of five
ports off the top of my head where the authorities are either for rent or
dont care (Bombay, Karachi, Jakarta, Shanghai and Mombassa).

>
>The reason the pirates use small boats in general is their 
>speed, as bigger boats  aren't sufficiently faster than the 
>targets to reliably catch them. Perhaps a 400t freighter 
>with a load of fighters would be a better pirate vessel 
>than a 400t corsair? (at least it would be better at 
>pretending to be a merchant :-)

I'm actually in final design on a Jump-3 500 dt freighter with 15 external
grapples for 15 dton subcraft. Fully loaded, it does a jump-2. Why 15 dtons
? Well, thats the size of Svennson Small Craft's *excellent* 15 dton Wasp
class fighter (5 gee, 250 MJ laser, 3 missiles). Alternativly, you can put
on 15 15 dton fuel or cargo shuttles, which will take the total cargo
capacity up to about 424 dtons (the ship costs about MCr170 without
sub-craft, including 214 dtons of internal cargo and 10 passengers in small
staterooms).

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 04:40:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Bank robbery

In mail you write:

> At 02:19 PM 5/31/98 GMT, you wrote:
>>On Sun, 31 May 1998 02:30:43 EDT, you wrote:
>
>>I thought the guy who parachuted out of the plane with the money he
>>stole from a bank was never caught...
>
> Ah, the great D.B. Cooper.  He didn't rob a bank, but hijacked the plane
> and demanded the money.  Then he parachuted from a maitenence hatch in the
> cargo hold.

Nope. The plane had a rear boarding ramp. He'd had them extend it and
fly slow. At *some* point he jumped from there. Jumping from a hatch is
a good way to get mangled in the tail assembly.

> Since they couldn't find him, they decided he "must have" died in the jump.
>  About twnety years later some of the money was found in an area creekbed.
> Abbie Hoffman swore that D.B lived but then lost everything in a
> real-estate deal.  Who knows.

Well, he didn't lose the money in a real estate deal. Because they had
the serial numbers for all the bills and the only ones that *ever*
turned up were those mangled ones they found. So if he survived, he's
holding onto the money. If he spent *any* of it, it'd be a red light as
soon as it hit a bank.

> Another good myth is that no-one ever escaped from Alcatraz Federal Prison.
>  The story goes that nobody could survive the freezing water (46 F on
> average), the strong currents, and the sharks which cruise the bay.  But
> after one breakout the found one of the prisoners asleep under the North
> tower of the Golden Gate Bridge.  He had survived the swim, but was too
> tired to continue.

Heck, that happened *several* times. A more popular point to swim for
were the docks about a mile away.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 15:08:04 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Piracy

On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, Walter Smith wrote:

> How much does a new identity cost? I've heard MCr1 bandied about
> for a dependable one - and remember you need enough to for a greedy,
> irresponsible person to retire on, not just get a new start - I think 
> we've already established that if a pirate could function normally in
> society, she would. :)

But would a pirate want a new identity, or does he want his name in the
history books as the man that couped the biggest loop this side of Sylea.
 
> 
> Here's an idea - how many people that the Imperium call Pirates call
> themselves Pirates? How many are Geonee seperatists, Ine Givar
> terrorists, Megacorp black ops anti-competitor teams, or whatever?
> The first two might have to act as normal pirates (no support available),
> but be willing to put up with the danger and low pay for "the cause".
> The last one might pretend to be pirates, but have new identities and
> fat retirement bonuses waiting for them at the end of their cruise.
> 

And how many will stop after getting a 9MCr profit from a raid. They'll
feel invoulvnerable and go on and on until caught. I think this is the
way many succesful criminals are. Their intelligent, arrogant and feel
supirior.

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #540
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, June 1 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 541



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re Informations on Alien Animals
Re: Blowing up Ships
Piracy IMPHBTPEITU (long)
Piracy in the Spinward Marches
Big Eneri's Used Defense Boats
Imperial Surplus
Re: Piracy (short!)
piracy
Re: Piracy
Traveller: World Economics
Re: Plot Device Wanted
Re: Product List for Megatraveller
RE: Blowing up Ships
New Games & Party discipline (was Piracy)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 14:55:52 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: re Informations on Alien Animals

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Dom <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com> asked:


>I would be interested if anyone knew where the following
>creatures appear in Traveller

>Kian - I think this is a JTAS Bestiary


Yes, you're right on that one.  The following are excerpts from a draft of
my current work in progress, a bibliography of all magazine articles from
JTAS, Challenge, Travellers' Digest, Traveller Chronicle, and the MT
Journal.



While I'm here, anyone happen to know who wrote the article on the Kian in
JTAS 1 (and reprinted in Best of JTAS 1)?





Kian
  By Roger Moore.  JTAS 9, 1981, p.37
  1 page, small format.  Tab., ill.
  Originally  from  Prilissa  in  Trin
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?s  Veil  subsector,  Kians are large herbivore  grazers  and  in  this  article are described, illustrated= and
  detailed.

  Comments:  This  article  was reprinted in The Best of the Journal of= the
  Travellers? Aid Society, no.3, p.38.

>Bush Runner

Bush Runners
  [Anon.]  JTAS 1, 1979, pp.4-5 & 6
  3 pages, small format.  Tab., ill.
  Suffitifer  andrewsii,  et  al  an  omnivorous  bipedal  creature that is
  somewhat like a cross between a kangaroo and a fruit-lizard.

  Comments:  This  article  was reprinted in The Best of the Journal of the
  Travellers? Aid Society, no.1, pp.8-9 & 11.


The following two were from a slightly different source:

>Grass Dog


Disappearance on Aramat, p.17

>Gratheudom


Disappearance on Aramat, p.19



Hope that's useful.


tc

=

- --0__=JRMT79isftzlvt6RfzwucCoHjyGksRZPlqrhB2C1RNLdvg8HvBT7mkej--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 10:19:38 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Blowing up Ships

>Rob Asked
>>
>>So, how can a large explosion be produced, preferably destroying the
>>ship and a decent chunk of the highport, which will still look like an
>>accident? Can a fusion plant be made to explode somehow? Or is it
>>going to have be a dodgy cargo that's reposonsible? Possibly a 'small'
>>explosion is more likely that triggers a volatile cargo?
>>

Using current technology as a guide, a Fusion Power Plant is not likely to
explode.  If too much or too little fuel if fed to it, it will simply stop
fusing.  If magnetic containment is lost, there will be a little melting of
the physical container, but in general the *heat* energy of the plasma
(i.e. fusion no longer contained is no longer fusion, usually) is
relatively low since its of a very thin density.

If there is a problem with the hydrogen fuel feed, or if the Fusion reactor
shuts down, but the fuel flow continues (several safeties would need to be
disabled) you could eventually get a pretty good hydrogen explosion,
assuming the presence of sufficient oxygen.

The best method of causing a big explosion in my opinion would be a
gravitic drive failure on final approach.  A few thousand tons (wt.) of
starship with tanks full of hydrogen travelling at velocities of just a few
tens of meters per second would create quite a bit of havoc.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 10:27:47 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Piracy IMPHBTPEITU (long)

Just a little compilation of how Piracy and other things work(ed)
In My Probably Heretical But The Players Enjoyed It Traveller Universe:

"Pirate" encounters could actually be Pirates, Commerce Raiders,
or StarMercs on local war contracts. For purposes of this discussion,
we'll limit "Pirate" to mean independent or small groups of ships 
acting illegally and taking ships as their primary criminal activity.

It's hard to take someone else's ship with you after you board it.
Manpower problems (you can't make a ship jump without 
a navigator on board), frequent lack of fuel aboard the target vessel,
and the ability of many shipmasters to lock out all but the most
professional hackers from their computers tend to remove the ship
itself as a target. Also, selling a ship requires some pretty specialized
contacts due to the long paper trail involved - some pirate crews can
do it, most find it too involved and more dangerous than taking the ship
in the first place.

(Groups who _do_ have the manpower and expertise to crack into
ship's computers, kill the crew, fly off with the ship and sell it for
a profit don't risk their lives in space combat - they form hijacking
teams and ride as passengers. They usually have to take the ship
before it enters jumpspace (so they can pick the destination), but
they like to strike during jump preparations because that's when the
crew and the computer are busiest.)

The "average" pirate will be a small (100 to 400 ton) jump-capable
vessel. Type S Scout ships are minimally capable for this task,
but are popular because they are ubiquitous, often travel with no
flight plans, have oddball paper trails as a normal course of business
and (IMTU at least) can be kept barely functional without seeing a
class-B startport for years - though at a cost of steadily increasing
field maintenance efforts.

A variety of 400-ton range vessels are the more common pirate,
usually mutinied patrol cruisers or starmerc commerce raiders that
ran out of war or were otherwise cashiered - the StarMerc that can't
get contracts anymore because of incompetence or inability to follow
the rules is a popular image of the "Classic Pirate", and does exist
though is rare. Mutinied patrol vessels occur with some frequency 
because the officers of such vessels are the least competent or least
experienced in the Navy (experienced and competent ones get
to command Destroyers and up). Further, the crews of such vessels
tend to be people that aren't doing well in the big happy family of the
Navy. Note that "Navy" here means the Subsector & Sector Navies - 
the Imperial Navy does a better job at maintaining it's reputation as
professionals, even at the patrol vessel level.

Patrol Cruisers, BTW, aren't front-line combat vessels - they are
designed as long-duration multi-role ships, able to do everything
from search & rescue to boarding of suspected smugglers.
The enforcement of red-zones against ethically-challenged
free trader captains can be great training for a Patrol Cruiser
crew - the skills and actions needed are almost identical to what
they'll need after they mutiny and take up piracy. ;)

(Note that the average patrol vessel encountered is Subsector or Sector
Navy, colonial ships. Imperial patrols are only encountered around
Impie Navy bases and operational fleets, or the occaisional anti-piracy
sweep or patrol maneuvers. The fact that Impie patrol squadrons will
do anti-piracy sweeps through areas already at least nominally patrolled
by local forces shoould show you what the Impies think of local 
capabilities. The free trader is ambivalent about the situation - Impies
are good at clearing out pirates, but tend to perform board & inspect
more often, which can make the free trader a bit nervous.)

The Imperial Scout Service has lost a few X-Boat Tenders to pirates.
These ships often make long trips to outlying systems to pick up
misdirected X-Boats, and some of these systems turn out to be
more dangerous than expected. These ships would be used as
mobile bases of operations, rather than as attack ships in their
own right.

Pirates will usually try to create a base of operations to perform
repairs, stockpile supplies and store stolen cargos. Asteroids are
popular, due to the distance from gravity wells and how lonely the
average asteroid is. The asteroid will be hollowed out, chunks from
a captured ship will be welded into it (hatches, power plant,
life support, etc) and it will be ready for action.

This kind of jury-rigged building and maintenance are a hallmark of
all but the best-connected pirates. Annual maintenance, battle
damage repairs, even refits are performed under dangerous,
difficult and poorly-equipped conditions, kind of like a medic
performing field surgery on someone who ought to be in a hospital.
Burn-scarred, maimed pirates are not just the stuff of holovid shows - 
pulling a fusion plant with nothing but a chopped-down air-raft is
_dangerous_.

Mainly due to this kind of abuse, pirate vessels won't last the hundreds
of years one might get out a well-maintained ship. In a hard fight
with a Patrol Cruiser, it's likely to be a system that fails under the 
stress of relatively minor damage that kills the pirate ship. 

Note for the "must swim with the fishes" people out there: the
average pirate ship will _never_ call at a starport that has any kind
of legal controls or Imperial presence. It will never, except at long ranges
or in the most cursory manner, be able to play the role of honest
merchant - and it works within these limitations.

Pirates make arrangements with criminal groups or even individual
smugglers to buy cargos they have stolen. They keep what they
need for their jury-rigged ship repairs, and hope for the big haul - 
except that the mind-set that leads someone into being a pirate
often has the big haul make them overconfident, so they go for
a bigger one.

A ship hunted by a pirate can expect the following to happen:

1) Some deception may occur. A pirate may pretend to be
a customs or patrol vessel - a deception that will not last long,
but may allow the first stages of an intercept to occur. Stealth
capabilites, for those pirates lucky enough to have them,
are made use of.

2) Calling for help will probably do little good, unless they can delay
the pirate through unexpected thrust capabilities or good battle
tactics/weaponry - many of which will make the pirate give up anyway,
unless desperation or prospect of an unusually great haul perks up the
pirate's courage. The target was detected by the pirate too far from help,
either due to a minor misjump outside the usual traffic lanes or because
the target is in a place where patrols don't go. Or perhaps something
has already happened to the local patrol ship - if the planet Pinata
only has two Patrol Ships, and five or six pirates club together to
bushwhack the patrol, they'll have free rein of the system (away from
whatever planetary defenses there might be) for weeks.

3) The pirate will intercept. She may order the target to cut engines
pretty early - high-speed passes won't get you cargo, but they will
wreck your merchant ship. It's easier to intercept a target if you don't
care about relative velocities at intercept, but impossible to board
a ship unless you match velocities - the threat of a battle pass should
suffice to keep the target from evading, or even get the target to
maneuver to redezvous with you.

4) The merchant will be boarded. Some pirate vessels have
(or the merchant will think they have) too small a crew to force
a boarding - the loss of the boarding party might leave the pirate
ship too undermanned to keep the merchant from escaping, even
from right under it's guns. This will lead to merchant passengers 
or crew, in some situations, to resist the boarding party. Considering
how many interstellar travellers will be wealthy/noble (and have
bodyguards) or will be military/ex-military, this happens more often
than you might think. Considering how many pirate vessels have
severe manpower problems, this works more often than you might
think. A rare, though not unheard-of occurance is for a merchant to
come to port with a captured pirate ship right behind it.

5) The merchant will be looted. Damage (to the ship and people aboard)
will often depend on how much trouble they gave the pirate.
Depending on the time factor, varying amounts of looting will occur.
The ship's safe may be cleaned out, usually with the help of the
Shipmaster or Chief Purser (obtained at gunpoint). Personal weapons,
vacc suits, spare parts, even ship's vehicles or craft may be stolen.
Cargo will be a prime target, though the lack of starport loading
facilities will hamper this somewhat - you may see improvised cargo
transfer gear on a pirate ship. Passengers and crew may be molested,
robbed, even raped or kidnapped - the last depending on the pirate crew's
connections and capabilities. If a pirate finds the winner of the Miss
Regina Beauty Pageant on board, he might decide to kidnap her now
and figure out the multi-millon Credit ransom scheme later, even if he
doesn't currently have the capabilities to conduct ransom negotiatons.

6) The Pirates will go their merry way. Their target will need some
restocking and repairs, but won't be destroyed - unless they resist,
in which case as an object lesson their ship might be left a gutted
hulk, perhaps with them adrift in a life boat or vacc suit - perhaps not.

The objective of all but the most psychopathic (or fanatic) pirate is
taking ship's cargos (and the occaisional ship) for money, _not_ killing
people. Killing happens, but is usually bad for business - Impie attention
starts to come to bear much faster.

Note that IMTU Hijackers are seen as a more dangerous threat than
pirates, though piracy is more common - and Hijackers (if identified)
make it closer to the top of Imperial MoJ most wanted lists than pirates
do, because the average outcome of a successful Hijacking is a missing
ship and 100% mortality rate for it's passengers and crew. There is also
a cultural factor - someone who sneaks aboard your ship in port 
under a false name to murder you and steal your ship is seen as more
of a monster than the somewhat romanticized pirate who catched you
in open space and leaves you with your life, and your ship. IMTU there
is a cultural bias strongly against those who abuse people's trust to
this extreme (as any slow-communication feudalized society would have
such a bias). The pirate made you no promises, even implied ones - 
he caught you and robbed you "fair and square". Cold comfort for the
impoverished ship captain, to be sure, but the bias still exists.

Impie patrol cruisers, of course, have no patience for or romantic notions
about pirates, and no respect for them whatsoever - even to the point
of underestimating them on occaision. Their definition of "pirate"
can also be a bit fuzzy at times, so many independent merchants are
leery of "Imperial Entaglements". Subsector and even Sector patrol
cruisers are usually more respectful of the threat.

Being a pirate is dangerous, risky, and a bad idea. Many people find it
the best choice from a list of really bad ones, or are good at making
bad choices - or even good at making bad choices work out.

Just some concatenations of what players encountered IMPHBTPEITU.


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 10:03:46 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Piracy in the Spinward Marches

One of the JTAS (#19, I think) has an article covering piracy
in the Spinward Marches. It makes the same points of
economics that have been made in recent TML posts.
However, it does list the systems in the Marches which could
provide a setting for piracy (as far as the author was
concerned). Although I don't have the JTAS with me at work, 
there were a total of 5 systems in which a low Law Level was
combined with a Class B starport. This, in the author's mind,
was enough to provide an area which would support piracy. I
believe the Wochiers system was one of them.

My take is that any such system would need to combine
either a low Law Level *or* the "proper" Govt. Type (such as
an impersonal bureaucracy) with at least a Class B starport
and a TL capable of processing the pirated goods. Finally,
there shouldn't be a space naval base in the system. The
Ilium system in the Darrian subsector would be my idea
of one possibility.

Personally, I belong in the "piracy is an occasional thing
outside of war" camp.

------------------------------

Date: 01 Jun 1998 11:09 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Big Eneri's Used Defense Boats

YI 234-1017

Arrrr mateys!  Sunbeard the Pirate here for Big Eneri's
Used Defense Boats.  Lookie what they got out here for ya...
and lookit the prices!  Bargains galore, I tell ye!

Here we gots a vintage 400-tonner, back from 957 (whooee!
That's before I was born!) for the low low price of MCr200.
And over there's a smaller boat used during the 3rd Fronteir
war, made in 982.  This 200-ton dynamo's only MCr185.  And
what do you think about this little number?  Yep, an old
Seeker, run by a coupla locals for awhile in the Shionthy
Belt.  A steal at only MCr10!  Arr!

Well you ain't got better deals than this, I tell ya!  For
your credit, there ain't no finer scratch-and-dent vintage
used starships and defense boats than the ones in this here
lot.  So come on down to Big Eneri's now and get yourself
a piece of the action!  Tell 'em I sent you and get a 5%
discount!  These prices are a steal, or else my name's not 
Sunbeard!  Arrr!

(Standard disclaimers apply.  Purchase price by lease for
20-year mortgage only at 220% or cash down.  Ships provided
as-is.  Dealer makes no claims as to the spaceworthiness of
any ship sold.  By Imperial law ships are provided without
defenses installed; such devices must be purchased and 
installed at a licensed Imperial starport by certified
Imperial service engineers.  This has been an advertisement
for Big Eneri's Used Defense Boats.  Copyright 1017, All 
rights reserved.)

IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+

------------------------------

Date: 01 Jun 1998 11:17 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Imperial Surplus

Boat, Defense, System, 400t:

Surplus Imperial Defense Boats.  Available to qualifying systems.
Provided with 1-year full-service warranty, plus standard defenses.
Prices are cash-down; financing is by standard rates.

First Flight	Age (Yrs)	Price (MCr)
977*		40		150
982		35		180
987		30		210
992		25		240
997		20		260
1002		15		275
1007		10		290
1012		5		300

* Due to reliability issues with current technology, used boats 
  older than 40 years are not sold in this catalog.

IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 08:52:36 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy (short!)

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: Piracy
...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>How much does a new identity cost? I've heard MCr1 bandied about
>for a dependable one - and remember you need enough to for a greedy,
>irresponsible person to retire on, not just get a new start - I think 
>we've already established that if a pirate could function normally in
>society, she would. :)

  MCr 1 might get you a shiny new Imperial ID; I strongly suspect that
a planetary ID could be a tenth that or less, particularly if they have
no reason to believe that the Imperium really wants to find you. If the
background is such that buying a new ID on Porozlo (for ex) costs MCr 1,
then the bribery and corruption bandied about as an aide to piracy will
simply be uneconomic.

>Here's an idea - how many people that the Imperium call Pirates call
>themselves Pirates? How many are Geonee seperatists, Ine Givar
...

  Politicals will have the problem of attracting a more vigorous
response if their agenda becomes known (usually part of the point).
But the source of dedicated personnel stands as useful and valid.

>Many historical pirates were escaped slaves or dirt-poor people from
>undeveloped countries. If the average wage on your homeworld is
>subsistence or less, and the average lifespan is 30-something, 
>the dangerous and insanely risky pirate career might look very
>attractive.
 
  It's good for providing boarding parties, but the minimum number
of crew is determined by the need to fill skilled positions.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 12:17:17 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: piracy

Steve Hudson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Many historical pirates were escaped slaves or dirt-poor people from
>undeveloped countries. If the average wage on your homeworld is
>subsistence or less, and the average lifespan is 30-something, 
>the dangerous and insanely risky pirate career might look very
>attractive.
 
  It's good for providing boarding parties, but the minimum number
of crew is determined by the need to fill skilled positions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Which would contribute to the pirates taking cargo instead of
ships - they have plenty of bully-boys, but only one guy who can
navigate a jump. And since that is a salable skill, this navigator
must have some compelling reason for hiding out with these
space scum.

Maybe he's already wanted for something else? Or did he get his
spacer's license (if YTU has such a thing) yanked?

Imagine a guy who would do anything to stay in space, gets his
license yanked - the only way he can work on a ship is in the
grey area of the law anyway. If he has it in for some of the 
merchant ships in the area (disgruntled employee of a local
shipping line?), he might be interested in taking it out on some
ships...and he might have some info that would make piracy easier,
at least against certain targets or in a certain area.

On the subject of intelligence, consider this: the Executive Officer
of a Patrol Cruiser mutinies and takes his crew with him. He'll have
some time before he is "posted as overdue and presumed lost", 
and he might have access to lots of information about patrol tactics,
communications, codes and deployments - info that won't be useful
forever, but might be the edge he and his crew will need to keep
them alive while they're learning. Add to that the list of secret 
resupply caches he liberates from the ship's papers, and his crew
might be in business.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 12:01:43 -0400
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: Piracy

Tommy Grav wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 30 May 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
[snip]
> > Which leads to the *big* problem with being a pirate. Annual
> > maintenance. In the days of sail, the ship's crew could do any
> > maintenance needed short of a major catastrophe.  And they could do 
> > it on their own.  At worst they needed to lay in a supply of lumber 
> > at their base.
> >
> > But what's a pirate in the Imperium going to do? He not only needs 
> > to be able to sell his cargoes, he needs to be able to buy 
> > ordinance, and get battle damage repaired. The annual maintenance is 
> > a killer.  Because as you note, he's likely to be *known* by then. 
> > So he needs a Class B port that doesn't *care* that he's a pirate.
> 

I think there is some merit to the last sentence above.  I may
contribute to a flame war, but I think that there would be Class B ports
that would do his maintenance and welcome his cargoes.  A little graft
and greasing of palms, and you have the blind eye turned to the ship. 
Sure, you would have to have some people on the take at high levels, but
even then, I think it would (should?) be easier than we think.  If you
are concerned about the local system, then you need to have a way to
ensure that the powers that be won't be interested in you while you are
in port.  Maybe you buy a computer entry that says your "inspections"
are all up to date, have someone at the Port Authority authorize repairs
to "that ship", have the higher ups just approve the work...

> All he needs is an engineer to fix that which dosn't work. I really 
> don't think that the pirate ship will be tip top shape, but it will 
> run (possibly) when needed. It will be patched up, parts replaced by 
> stolen goods, refits, refits and refits. A half way decent engineer 
> and this is definitly possible (at least IMTU).

Yeah, I pretty much agree.  I think that true pirate ships won't be the
best cared for ships, unless under state sponsorship.  Often times,
crews were slovenly, and only held in check by the meanness of the
leader, not real loyalty.  For NPC pirates, it's not as important where
the maintenance is done, but for PCs, then the rates of misjumps should
be quite a bit higher, and continue to get worse until they can bribe,
force, beg maintenance...

> 
> > Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> 
> Tommy Grav

Greg Smith

------------------------------

Date: 01 Jun 1998 12:33 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Traveller: World Economics

Classic Traveller fixes average income at Cr10,000 per year,
in local currency.  Also, the value of the local credit is
based on the starport quality and the world TL.

But how do you determine how many people can afford to spend
money on spaceflight?  Bell curves?  Estimates?

The average Earth Joe may spend 1% on total travel expenses
per year; significantly less, then, would go to star flight.
If I spent 0.1% of my salary on spaceflight, and travelled
my parsecs in High Passage, I'd be making money like so:

Jumps/yr	Income
1/10		Cr 25,000
1/4		Cr 62,500
1		Cr 250,000
2		Cr 500,000
4		MCr 1

It looks like folks wouldn't be travelling the stars unless they 
had a need to -- it's expensive and slow.

I could really use a nice formula telling me how much money is
spent on star travel by a world's inhabitants... how about
0.1% of the GWP measured in Imperial Credits.  Divide that into
Cr6000 avg per traveller or whatever -- and you have total people 
travelling per year.
Treece would be: 
	Pop 600,000,000, D starport, TL 8
	GWP:          6,000,000,000,000 local
	              3,250,000,000,000 Imperial
        Travel Expenses:  3,250,000,000 Imperial
                                540,000 Travellers per year
                                 10,000 Travellers per week

Also, these numbers won't make sense (IMHO) unless there's
another world nearby to compare to... which means this 10,000
people would divide out over all possible destinations.  If 
0.1% is reasonable, then the article Jon and I worked out still
seems to hold, for those 10,000 would spread out among all
possible destinations.

Jae Tellona is a bit hard to swallow, though.

Rob
IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 13:09:59 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Plot Device Wanted

>So, how can a large explosion be produced, preferably destroying the
>ship and a decent chunk of the highport, which will still look like an
>accident? Can a fusion plant be made to explode somehow? Or is it
>going to have be a dodgy cargo that's reposonsible? Possibly a 'small'
>explosion is more likely that triggers a volatile cargo?

Flour.

Improperly packed flour is explosive, especially in an oxygen-rich
atmosphere.
And no one would (initially at least) think of a bomb.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 14:34:54 EDT
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Product List for Megatraveller

In a message dated 98-06-01 02:30:33 EDT, you write:

<< 
 Is there a product list for Megatraveller ? >>

I believe this one is complete and correct.

Marc 

MEGATRAVELLER
		MegaTraveller Boxed Set	
		Players Handbook	
		Referees Handbook	
		Imperial Encyclopedia	
		Referee's Companion	
		Rebellion Sourcebook	
		COACC	
		Fighting Ships	
		Knightfall	
		Hard Times	
		Arrival Vengeance	
		Assignment Vigilante	
		Astrogators Guide to Diaspora	

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 20:12:01 +0100 
From: Hugh Foster <HughFoster@Servisair.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Blowing up Ships

Speaking as a member of a crew that has just crashed its' Type R
headlong onto the largest downport on Ruie (not much, fair enough), I
can attest to the unpleasant power of a crashing ship... and how much
they fine you for landing on the radar systems!


Best regards, 

Hugh Foster
System Support Analyst

Servisair (UK) Ltd.
hughfoster@servisair.co.uk
www.servisair.co.uk


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Peter H. Brenton [SMTP:pbrenton@mit.edu]
> Sent:	Monday, June 01, 1998 3:20 PM
> To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject:	Re: Blowing up Ships
> 
> The best method of causing a big explosion in my opinion would be a
> gravitic drive failure on final approach.  A few thousand tons (wt.)
> of
> starship with tanks full of hydrogen travelling at velocities of just
> a few
> tens of meters per second would create quite a bit of havoc.
> 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 12:18:02 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: New Games & Party discipline (was Piracy)

>From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #538
...
>The main question for us anti-piracy people is 'what do we have to do to
>make piracy possible' - Pirates as the Traveller equivalent of Wandering
>Monsters sticks in my craw, given the Hard SF emphasis of the game.

  Speaking of hard SF, it looks like TSR's new Alternity game (while
a neat design) simply isn't competing for that market. Presumably this
is a marketing decision to provide an SF alternative to the gothic and
black clad supernatural superhero gamers. OTOH, it may simply be due to
the lack of designers willing to take on developing a self-consistent
hard SF universe (although the Star Frontiers background had its' good
points).

  Their 20-page adventure in Dungeon (ab AD&D mag, BTW) has all the 
howlingly funny hallmarks that one expects from a TSR effort at a 
space good. Good space opera, but space opera nonetheless.

>>Subject: Oops?
...
>>a session of self-criticism, Comrade?
...
>we make you the Vice-President in charge of Leroy Gautney (oooooh, now that
>is a brutal piece of factional bastardry).

  Ooh, we could discuss TL 16 commerce raiding at the tail-end of the
Interstellar Wars!

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #541
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, June 1 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 542



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: New Games & Party discipline (was Piracy)
Vector Movement
Re: piracy
Re: Subs & Sandwiches
Re: Thoughts on sensors
Re: New Games & Party discipline (was Piracy)
Re: piracy
Re: Vector Movement
Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)
Re: Piracy
Re: Piracy
New Old Product - Contact Info, please
Re: piracy
Re: Piracy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 12:45:46 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: New Games & Party discipline (was Piracy)

>  Speaking of hard SF, it looks like TSR's new Alternity game (while
>a neat design) simply isn't competing for that market. Presumably this
>is a marketing decision to provide an SF alternative to the gothic and
>black clad supernatural superhero gamers. OTOH, it may simply be due to
>the lack of designers willing to take on developing a self-consistent
>hard SF universe (although the Star Frontiers background had its' good
>points).
>
>  Their 20-page adventure in Dungeon (ab AD&D mag, BTW) has all the
>howlingly funny hallmarks that one expects from a TSR effort at a
>space good. Good space opera, but space opera nonetheless.

The Star*Drive setting for Alternity is intentionally space-operatic.
Theoretically, the rules can be used for any sci-fi setting you like.

While I think the rules system is pretty cool, I think the designers are
trying too hard to come up with nifty ways to say things so they don't sound
like the same thing in other games.  For example, what you and I know as
gravitics, they call "gravitonics."  Instead of good old-fashioned
anti-matter reactors, they've come up with "mass reactors," which generate
energy through "dark matter."  (Don't get me started on what this means to
the MACHO vs. WIMPS debate. ;)  ) Instead of hyperspace/jumpspace, we have
"drivespace," ad infinitum.

Seriously, it wouldn't be TOO hard to create a hard sci-fi universe with
Alternity, but you'd have to do some serious rules-weeding, and you would
never be happy if you were a real gearhead (starship "compartments,"
anyone?).  While reading the books, I kept getting the feeling that I was
reading "Advanced Star Wars."

I thought about starting a flame-war by suggesting Alternity:Traveller . . .
:)


Brian (diving for cover) Mays

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 12:06:54 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Vector Movement

Peter Brenton complains about being confused by the vector formulae.

formula 1: Distance covered at constant thrust over given time
	d= 0.5 * A * T

Formula 2: Vector accumluated during given time
	v= A * T

Derivative formula: Distance covered (assuming strait line) during a
subunit of a longer acceleration

	D= (0.5 * A * Tl * Tp) + (A * Tl)

	Where
	A = Accelleration
	Tl = Turn Length
	Tp = turns prior to current
	D = Distance covered
	V = Vector in distance terms only (no angle)

Situation (Realistic)

2G ship, BL scale vectors and distances in hexes

Turn 	StVctr	Dist	FinVect	TotDist	| WGFD	| PMEV	PMEDT
0	0	0	0	0	| 0	| 0	0
1	0	1	2	1	| 2	| 1	1
2	2	3	4	4	| 6	| 2	3
3	4	5	6	9	| 12	| 3	6
4	6	7	8	16	| 20	| 4	10
5	8	9	10	25	| 30	| 5	15
6	10	11	12	36	| 42	| 6	21
7	12	13	14	49	| 56	| 7	28
8	14	15	16	64	| 72	| 8 	36

StVctr is starting vector THIS TURN.
Dist is distance moved THIS TURN under REALISTIC MODEL
FinVect is end of turn accumulated vector
TotDist is total distance from Turn 0 location.
WGFD: Typical wargamers fudge distance (ie, how BL and Mayday do it)
	Add vector change then move final vector
PMEV: Vector and distance this turn under "Peter's Math Error"( hereafter PME)
	(using total distance over time as vector change formula, as he
	proposed)
PMEDT: Total distance under Peter's Math Error.

as you can see, the BL methos is consistantly off by a distance of 1/2
accelleration per turn, cumulative

Using PME, you wind up with distances remarkably low. (just over 1/2 of
actual distances)

Add to that the complications of 2d vector aiming, and you can see why the
industry uses the  (Use final Vector) system they do; is is simple enough
to use.


William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 13:35:53 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: piracy

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: piracy
...
>Which would contribute to the pirates taking cargo instead of
>ships - they have plenty of bully-boys, but only one guy who can
>navigate a jump. And since that is a salable skill, this navigator
>must have some compelling reason for hiding out with these
>space scum.

  The big problem I have with taking cargo over ships is that it seems
a wildly sub-optimal course of action (except for a casual who didn't
luck into the richer possibility). Why not go the extra distance (and
take an extra risk implied) get the big bucks, cash out, buy a new
identity and start a new life - maybe even buying your own ship?

  It's a one-time "I'm outta here" sort of event compared to a plan
of repeated chicken stealing which is more likely to end in failure
than success; and each cargo-robbing (from a starship) has the potential
to become a career completing ship theft. I have a lot of trouble seeing
why such a rational course of action wouldn't be followed.

...
>On the subject of intelligence, consider this: the Executive Officer
>of a Patrol Cruiser mutinies and takes his crew with him.

  I'd consider that (IMTU) to be an extremely rare recruiting incident
compared to casuals, psychos, hijackers, intruding Vargr, or just very
well organized criminals. It's a skill set that might easily be imported
by Vargr or ex-military (Sworld Worlders in the SM?); OC, many merchant
crew may be ex-military or serving reservists.

  All of this begs a question about the personnel structure of the various
navies; are the majority of crew short-timers (conscripts?) or is a large
proportion of the crew going to have lots of time in grade?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 13:36:03 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Subs & Sandwiches

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Subs & Sandwiches
...
>> i) That presumes a very low traffic pattern; as previously stated,
>>this is by defintion a low probability concern.
>
>It presumes low traffic from the system you are at, to the system
>you are going to, is low as some times.  It doesn't take that low
>a traffic to have a gap of a few days.

  By definition, the vast majority of traffic (at least by tonnage)
is to high-traffic systems whose mainworld security will be pirate
proof. Traffic being low at some time would require statistical
anomalies that are only really possible at truly backwater worlds
(not to say that it doesn't happen). This technique, _even in the
absence of another traffic security system_, simply reduces the
practical traffic horizon at which mainworld piracy can be believed
that much lower.

  How many days in advance do you have to announce your destination to
acquire passengers? From the 14 day trip, probably 4-5 days to get the
full #'s indicated on the chart. Quite possibly the same for standard
uses of various cargo/freight charts.

>There is also the issue of being willing to tell a competator your
>plans.

  Why are you telling a competitor? Certainly an X-boat, or a bank/
shipping company agent doesn't count, nor would a passenger mailing
ahead with their passage details.

>>iii) Again, if insurance rates are only slightly higher then it
>>effectively proves that the risk of loss is quite minimal.
>
>I presumes piracy is uncommon.  (I don't know aobut "quite
>minimal")  I've been saying that all along.

  My suggestion is that your prescribed anti-piracy regime would be
quite encouraging to potential businessbeings, let alone mutinied
patrol vessels.

>>iv) sending a letter (e-mail?) to the next system is expensive?
>
>It requires a ship goes there.  That is the point.  There are no
>other communications in Traveller.  There is no "e-mail".

  It requires a ship, yes. If one is not available, then no message
can be sent. If one is, the cost is probably trivial: a local mail
courier company could rent a Dt of cargo for KCr 1 on the next (at
least vaguely reputable) ship, send 10-14 m^3 of mail, massing 5
to 15 metric tons, and make a profit on Cr 0.20 to 0.25 /kg - have
you tried sending a pair of six-sided dice to Alaska via UPS? A Trav
starship with a blown J-drive on a real backwater could probably
undercut the local shipping industry by a huge margin.

  Unless one assumes that a Dt of cargo is 1000kg _maximum_ then
Trav cargo is cheap. For capital equipment, 2300 AD cargo density
gives 42,000 kg per Dt. (Hey, what's recyclable paper amd cardboard
worth these days?)

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:24:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on sensors

Ian or Katts writes:
> OK. I have the Definitive Sensor Rules and the FFS Errata, and I am
> startting to think.
> 
> Firstly, active sensors appear pretty useless. The way to go appears to be
> using passive sensors to identify targets, and then use LIDARs to get a
> fire control lock. AEMS may have uses in highlighting either missiles or
> the individual beads of blossomed kinteic kill missiles, for point defense
> lasers to pick off (how much energy does it take to boil away 1cm3 of
> superdense, anyway ?).

Active sensors generally have two major advantages over passive sensors:
1)  Active sensors are good at determining range and velocity to/away from the
sensor.  Passive sensors are at best very bad at it -- two high-grade (1
microradian resolution) sensors 30 meters apart can't determine range at all
beyond 1 BL hex, and at 1 hex have a margin of error of roughly a factor of 2. 
An active sensor of comparable quality can probably determine range to within
100 meters.
2)  Active sensors are good at noise reduction -- they know exactly what
frequency they're emitting, so they can restrict their scanning to receiving
within that frequency (or a reasonable doppler shift).  As a result, you don't
have to filter all the bright objects in the sky to figure out which ones are
ships -- bright objects are virtually guaranteed to be nearby objects, and thus
also pretty much by definition 'interesting'.  This is really more of a factor
for sensors in atmosphere -- picking up aircraft against a blue sky (or, even
worse, trying to pick up items near atmospheric temperature with a thermograph)
is extremely difficult.

Neither is specifically a reason to use an AEMS -- a better reason is that if
you have annoying people hiding in various sorts of opaque atmospheres (such as
within a gas giant atmosphere), they're invisible to just about everything
except radar (they aren't visible to lidar).  In the DSR rules, it should be
noted at LIDARs generally use dust, atmospheric, and other obscurement-related
penalties appropriate to the visual signature (or IR signature, depending on
design), not the radar signature.

> LIDARS useful to sensible combat ranges (a million km or so) appear to be
> small and cheap by military standards. The combat technique of trying to
> 'scrub' a hull of surface features by use of long distance lasers and/or
> kinetic kill missiles has been suggested. I would think that it wouldnt be
> that hard to make LIDARS and PEMS massivly redundant (I am thinking about
> 20 or so per warship), and have most of them behind blow-off or removable
> armour plates - 10 cm of crystaliron will stop any laser, and as LIDARS get
> damaged you just reveal new ones.

Redundant sensors make military sense -- however, it isn't necessarily
impractical to harden sensors either, flashing a sensor with a laser is likely
to only burn out one or two pixels (or none at all, if not focused in that
direction; also, most sensor mirrors don't reflect X-rays too well, so an X-ray
laser might need to be close enough to do damage) and you might well have
enough warning before being hit by a spray of KKMs sand (I'd guess that's what
you're talking about for 'scrubbing') to just cover your sensors.  Alternately,
the capabilities of deflectors are (to me, at least) somewhat unclear, so you
might be able to just focus a deflector to keep sand away from your sensor.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 08:54:42 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: New Games & Party discipline (was Piracy)

At 12:18 PM 01/06/98 -0700, Steven Hudson wrote:
>  Speaking of hard SF, it looks like TSR's new Alternity game (while
>a neat design) simply isn't competing for that market. Presumably this
>is a marketing decision to provide an SF alternative to the gothic and
>black clad supernatural superhero gamers. OTOH, it may simply be due to
>the lack of designers willing to take on developing a self-consistent
>hard SF universe (although the Star Frontiers background had its' good
>points).
>
>  Their 20-page adventure in Dungeon (ab AD&D mag, BTW) has all the 
>howlingly funny hallmarks that one expects from a TSR effort at a 
>space good. Good space opera, but space opera nonetheless.

A couple of my friends have just got it. It looks like a good set of rules
for space opera, but hard SF it is not.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 23:31:24 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: piracy

On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, Steven Hudson wrote:

> >From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
> >Subject: piracy
> ...
> >Which would contribute to the pirates taking cargo instead of
> >ships - they have plenty of bully-boys, but only one guy who can
> >navigate a jump. And since that is a salable skill, this navigator
> >must have some compelling reason for hiding out with these
> >space scum.
> 
>   The big problem I have with taking cargo over ships is that it seems
> a wildly sub-optimal course of action (except for a casual who didn't
> luck into the richer possibility). Why not go the extra distance (and
> take an extra risk implied) get the big bucks, cash out, buy a new
> identity and start a new life - maybe even buying your own ship?
> 
>   It's a one-time "I'm outta here" sort of event compared to a plan
> of repeated chicken stealing which is more likely to end in failure
> than success; and each cargo-robbing (from a starship) has the potential
> to become a career completing ship theft. I have a lot of trouble seeing
> why such a rational course of action wouldn't be followed.

Who says that a man (or woman) that chooses to go pirate is a rational
human being. You seem to implie that everybody thinks rationally all the
time, but the fact is that there is millions out there in the real world
today that propably never thought a rational thought their entire life. 

A pirate might have hundreds of reasons to do what they do, and for every
successful ship that goes pirate there is propably a lot that never make
it. I don't think that it is as easy as you implie. Take the ship, make
the profit (hopefully), buy new identity and start a new life. Just look
at the guy that molested two girls in Belgium. He got caught, and while in
prison he thought out a plan and escaped while reading his courtpaper,
which he had a right to do. He thought himself supirior to everybody, and
actually had intelligence enough to do something about it. Fourtunally he
got caught again, but the result of the escape was the resignation of two
high offical in the justice department or police department.

A "crazy" pirate with a goal and intelligence is going to be a real hazzel
for everybody, just because he thinks that he can make it. And he propably
will for a while, and with luck on his side he can go a far far way.    

 ...
> >On the subject of intelligence, consider this: the Executive Officer
> >of a Patrol Cruiser mutinies and takes his crew with him.
> 
>   I'd consider that (IMTU) to be an extremely rare recruiting incident
> compared to casuals, psychos, hijackers, intruding Vargr, or just very
> well organized criminals. It's a skill set that might easily be imported
> by Vargr or ex-military (Sworld Worlders in the SM?); OC, many merchant
> crew may be ex-military or serving reservists.

I really don't think that it is that unlikely. Every see that move with
Gene Hackman and Denzel Washington. Nuclear sub at sea. Gets message that
something is going on. Communications broke. Fire or not? Take this a step
further because of the delay in orders. Captains on ships might beleave
that the Zhodani has gotten their HQ. No communication? Who is friend or
foe. Given the size of the fleet, there is bound to be some paranoid
captain that given enough stress will flip and see enemies everywhere. Not
many crews will diobey direct orders from their captain IMTU. 

>   All of this begs a question about the personnel structure of the various
> navies; are the majority of crew short-timers (conscripts?) or is a large
> proportion of the crew going to have lots of time in grade?

I would quess that small ships with small crews will have people tha have
been in the service for some while. While larger ships will have a larger
turnover in their ensigns. Just my opinion.
> 
>         Steven Hudson
> 
> 

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 17:34:34 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Vector Movement

>Peter Brenton complains about being confused by the vector formulae.

Indeed.

[snip big explanations with great charts for us simple-minded role-players]

Thank you, this seems much easier to read.  Some obvious assumptions were
not being explicitly stated.

>PMEV: Vector and distance this turn under "Peter's Math Error"( hereafter PME)
>	(using total distance over time as vector change formula, as he
>	proposed)

My original post on the subject;
>When we have used a vector based movement system, 1G allowed a change in
>vector >equivalent to altering the velocity of a ship one hex per turn in
>a given >direction.

Is that what you are referring to?

>PMEDT: Total distance under Peter's Math Error.
>
>as you can see, the BL methos is consistantly off by a distance of 1/2
>accelleration per turn, cumulative
>
>Using PME, you wind up with distances remarkably low. (just over 1/2 of
>actual distances)

Of course when I tried to apply the formula for acceleration to this idea
it appeared to me I was doing something wrong.  Thanks for the guidance,
and thanks to Anders et al for their patience.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 14:50:34 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)

Sat, 30 May 1998 02:02:39 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven
Hudson)
>>The point of piracy as a minor irritant is that chances
>>of getting caught will be enough to deter enough people
>>from the crime that is will not happen very often.  Thus
>>I would diagree with "little chance of getting caught".

>  My estimate of the potential gains compared to the minimal risks
>presented by your hypothetical security regime is that the level
>of piracy (etc.) it allows will be vastly above the "irritant"
>level.

Well, this is were we disagree.

>>No _sure_ way.  If a ship doesn't have a good explination,
>>or claims to be from Regina, but the patrol ships just
>>came from there and it is clear the captain has not
>>idea what just happened there, etc. they might get
>>caught, they make a mistake when they report the
>>ship's ID (ships made in 994 all had _9_ digit
>>IDs) and other forgery type mistakes.  I would just
>>treat is as a contest between the interrogator and
>>the interrogatee.

>  The above sounds like an impossible situation for law enforcement
>units to accomplish anything. No records are cross-checked, no black
>boxes exist to be inspected occasionally, ship licensing is minimal,
>personnel, manifests, and passenger registers are not maintained or
>cross-checked. I'm surprised that any bank would loan money to any
>private individual(s) to throw away money on what is after all a 
>getaway car.

Well, ironically this is not worse than a policeman faced in
determining if a car was stolen before they all had access
to computer records (and before they had radios they couldn't
even check for cars that were wanted _right now_).  It
worked to provide a significant deterant for years providing
one situation in which stealing a car was not a sure thing.

We get caught up in the way we do things today and forget
that it isn't the only possible way.

>  It's sort of worse than that, because an organization operating
>from outside the Imperium (OK, not pirates per se, but a clear
>threat to security) can simply pump the stuff through a sanitized
>cordon by pre-positioning fuel dumps for couriers to run to while
>hopping in a further stage;


That could be a complication.  You don't see military ship
doing this to bypass worlds.  In any case, you have a potential
for a lot more problems than people smuggling things into
the Imerium (and entire Vargr raiding fleet, or a Zhodani
invasion fleet, would be able to strick deep into the
Imperium without warning).  My guess it that the Imperium
does what the US does (since the US doesn't have boarders any
tighter and also isn't willing to stop and search every
vehicle that travels inside the US), it has agents outside
the boarders keeping an eye on those who would bring such
things in.

>  The Imperium doesn't have the ability to stop you from nuking
>yourself (in planetary terms). The winner/survivor will discover
>that the Imperium does, however, specialize in _making you regret_
>_having done so_.

Well, I thing the threat of reprisals is generaly used more
than active prevention in the Imperium.  Which is why I
don't see them using inspections.  If they can prevent
people from using nukes on the plane they were made, stolen,
etc. then they can use the same method on nukes from
different planets without disrupting trade.

>  Finding nukes on ships crossing Imperial space is practical.
>Nuclear dampers, rad counters, and (if allowed) deep radar all
>have applications.

I don't agree.  You are talking about intrusive inspection
of every ship on every jump.  Nukes can be shield.

>  Inspections (cursory/external or on-site) can be done at starports

I don't beleive cursory inspections are even going to come
close to stoping the movement of nukes.

> From the internal security POV,
>it is not necessary to check all ships at all times.

Well, first of all, the need not to inspect all ships, at
all times, to provide a deterent is something that I agree
with.  However, for nukes the Imperium appears to desire
to prevent any occurences by people (enemy agents, terrorists,
etc.) that are willing to take some significant risk.  
Random inspections won't work here.

>It is merely
>needful to check (~) all ships once in a while - any ship whose
>lifestyle is fundamentally illegal is thus subject to eventual serious
>risk of detention/confiscation/really short exchange of fire.

However, I do agree that inspections of occasional
suspicous ships would be a deterant to piracy and could
be one part of the program that keeps it down to reasonable
levels.  

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 15:04:55 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy

Sat, 30 May 1998 04:58:48 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
Erickson)
On taking cargoes vs ships....
> On the other hand, if approaching system patrol craft are a problem,
> then you aren't likely to be able to disable the merhant quickly enough
> *anyway*. Not unless you've got some way f getting *really* close
> un-noticed. 

> If an approaching patrol *isn't* a problem, then you are interested in
> the ship if it's at all easy to repair. It gives you more ships to work
> with. 

There is a big gap between not having enough time to even
take cargo and being able to fix battle damage.  Also, if
you take cargo you just need to chase the crew into staterooms
and lock them in.  If you take the whole ship you have to
deal with taking the crew (in a way that they don't know
enough to testify against you later) or killing them
(upping the profile of the crime and the level of effort
that will be spend in catching you).  Probably not enough
to say that one will never take the ship, but, in my mind,
enough to say that a alot might not.

> Which leads to the *big* problem with being a pirate. Annual
> maintenance. In the days of sail, the ship'screw could do any
> maintenance needed short of a major catastrophe. And they could do it
> on their own. At worst they needed to lay in a supply of lumber at
> their base.

My guess is that you either find a corrupt maintenance facility
or you get a good fake ID.  My guess is that if you are
taking ships in piracy, you will actually sell them as
parts rather than as whole ships (like they do with stolen
cars).

> But what's a pirate in the Imperium going to do? He not only needs to
> be able to sell his cargoes, he needs to be able to buy ordinance, and
> get battle damage repaired.

Well, he only needs odinance if he uses missles.  He may
not get a lot of battle damage if he takes on unarmed
ships.  And in any case he can just say he was attacked
by pirate :-)

> So he needs a
> Class B port that doesn't *care* that he's a pirate.

Well, not the whole port, only one repair facility, and then
only if he can't pass for a legit ship.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 15:33:23 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy

Sat, 30 May 1998 10:32:07 -0700, dberry@hooked.net
> To quote a SFPG friend: "Bank robbers don't get caught, *repeat* bank
> robbers get caught."  He expalined that if someone were smart enough to hit
> a bank or armored car just once, and then retire, his chances of getting
> away with the crime rise.  When you do it over and over, you establish a
> pattern and leave more evidence behind.

Well said....


Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 16:37:37 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Bank robbery

At 06:22 PM 5/31/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Really? Is that why they closed the rock?

>Yes, I do work in the travel industry in San Francisco.

Another "Bay Arean"!
(Contrary to my e-mail address, I live in the SF Bay Area...)
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 22:28:01 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: New Old Product - Contact Info, please

I seem to have lost some digests - specifically the ones telling
me who's offering "Letters of Marque" and where to send the
money.  If that person would please be so kind as to reserve a
signed one for me, and drop me some email with the price and
address to send the price to (purchaser is in USA), I would be
grateful, and will have my bank issue the check within 24 hours
of receipt of the information (so that the vendor will have it
within five business days of my receiving the information,
barring screwups by the United States Pest [sic] Office or Intuit
Online Financial Services).
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jun 98 17:56:10 -0500
From: eris@pen.net
Subject: Re: piracy

On 06/01/98 at 12:17 PM,  Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> said:

>  It's good for providing boarding parties, but the minimum number of
>crew is determined by the need to fill skilled positions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>Which would contribute to the pirates taking cargo instead of ships -
>they have plenty of bully-boys, but only one guy who can navigate a
>jump. And since that is a salable skill, this navigator must have
>some compelling reason for hiding out with these space scum.

>Maybe he's already wanted for something else? Or did he get his
>spacer's license (if YTU has such a thing) yanked?

There is also the possibility of a "join or die!" option given to
certain members of the captured crew.  An astrogator, engineer or
technician wouldn't have much choice if given that option, and as long
as they were watched closely, and were badly outnumbered aboard the
ship that "shanghaied" them would have a tough time resisting. 
Sabotage would be a quick way to die..if the sabotage itself didn't
get you the pirates would..and trying to take the ship or escape
wouldn't be an easy thing to do.

After some time with the pirates it might be too late to escape or "go
straight" in any case.  Imagine pirates publishing the real id's of
their crews...now try convincing the authorities you were "forced" to
plot those courses, or repair that jump drive.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 18:28:43 -0500 (CDT)
From: Alan Peery <peery@io.com>
Subject: Re: Piracy

On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, Greg Smith wrote:

> Tommy Grav wrote:
> > 
> > On Sat, 30 May 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > 
> > > But what's a pirate in the Imperium going to do? He not only needs 
> > > to be able to sell his cargoes, he needs to be able to buy 
> > > ordinance, and get battle damage repaired. The annual maintenance is 
> > > a killer.  Because as you note, he's likely to be *known* by then. 
> > > So he needs a Class B port that doesn't *care* that he's a pirate.


OR

He needs two or more ships that are essentially identical that he'll
swap systems in. He takes ship A in for annual maintenance at planet
Z--and then swaps subsystem Q to ship B.  Ship A with "suddenly out of
tune port floozit" now goes in for maintenace at planet Y.  By
choosing Z and Y to be in, for example, the Sword Worlds and the
Imperium, you lessen the likelihood of exchange of maintenace info and
attendant curiousity from authorities/manufacturers.

I am assuming that it is relatively easy to swap these
sub-systems--this would be an activity for the discussed pirate
bases, not for deep space. ("Joe, I *told* you not to pull the air
exchanger!  Blam, Blam." :-)) 

Alan

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #542
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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, June 2 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 543



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Subs & Sandwiches
Re: Piracy in the Spinward Marches
Re: Piracy in the Spinward Marches 
Re: Subs & Sandwiches
Re: Piracy (long)
Re: X-boat Sandwiches
Rome again?
Re: Piracy (long) 
Re: Piracy
Re: Rome again?
Re: Bank robbery
Re: Rome again?
Trav Characters Good or Evil?
Re: Piracy 
Re: How Does Treece Maintain an SDB Fleet? 
Re: piracy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 17:06:36 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Subs & Sandwiches

Mon, 01 Jun 1998 13:36:03 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven
Hudson)
> >It presumes low traffic from the system you are at, to the system
> >you are going to, is low as some times.  It doesn't take that low
> >a traffic to have a gap of a few days.
 
>   By definition, the vast majority of traffic (at least by tonnage)
> is to high-traffic systems whose mainworld security will be pirate
> proof.  Traffic being low at some time would require statistical
> anomalies that are only really possible at truly backwater worlds
> (not to say that it doesn't happen). This technique, _even in the
> absence of another traffic security system_, simply reduces the
> practical traffic horizon at which mainworld piracy can be believed
> that much lower.

Um no.  by definition "more" traffic has to be to high traffic
worlds.  But this doesn't even require that the majority
of traffic be to such systems (let along the "vast majority")

Second of all, even from high traffic systems, certain
destinations can be uncommon and it is quite possible, even
along medium traffic routes, to have several ships
leave one day and then have none for the next week.

>   How many days in advance do you have to announce your destination to
> acquire passengers? From the 14 day trip, probably 4-5 days to get the
> full #'s indicated on the chart. Quite possibly the same for standard
> uses of various cargo/freight charts.

Debatable.  In CT you anounce you destination an then
passengers sign on, impling they wait for ships to show
up.  This is particularly likely to be true in systems
were ships are less common.  I don't see any reason why
you always have to wait for cargo, but even if you 
did, you aren't sure when you will fill up so you will
_still_ have the situation of not wanting to hang around
waiting for another ship to leave first once you get
that last bit of cargo.  (What you are requiring is
that you have some time you need to wait after you have
gotten your last passenger and cargo before you leave).

> >There is also the issue of being willing to tell a competator your
> >plans.

>   Why are you telling a competitor? Certainly an X-boat, or a bank/
> shipping company agent doesn't count, nor would a passenger mailing
> ahead with their passage details.

Well, you are not restricting yourself to only leaving after
a ship that is an X-boat or is carrying an agent or passenger
you can trust with the info.  More delays ensue.

>   My suggestion is that your prescribed anti-piracy regime would be
> quite encouraging to potential businessbeings, let alone mutinied
> patrol vessels.

Yes, we have established that we don't agree on this....
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 17:46:34 +0000
From: edjs@mindlink.net
Subject: Re: Piracy in the Spinward Marches

> From:          "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
> Date:          Mon, 1 Jun 1998 10:03:46 -0500 
>
> concerned). Although I don't have the JTAS with me at work, 
> there were a total of 5 systems in which a low Law Level was
> combined with a Class B starport. This, in the author's mind,
> was enough to provide an area which would support piracy. I
> believe the Wochiers system was one of them.

From what I recall of the article, they all had government type 0, and were 
outside the Imperium or other intersteller governments.

I suppose I can reach over and grab my JTAS:

   Thanber (Querion 0707)
   Tremous Dex (Vilis 0501)
   Debarre (Darrian 0810)
   Asteltine (District-268 0101)
   Trexalon (District-268 0509)

I wish I could find my Classic-era Spinward Marches book; according to DGP's 
Rebellion-era listings, all the above gained governments, with the exception 
Asteltine.


- --
Edward Swatschek
edjs@mindlink.net - edjs@bitslayer.net - ICQ 2684960
http://home.mindlink.net/edjs/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 21:31:49 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Piracy in the Spinward Marches 

> > concerned). Although I don't have the JTAS with me at work, 
> > there were a total of 5 systems in which a low Law Level was
> > combined with a Class B starport. This, in the author's mind,
> > was enough to provide an area which would support piracy. I
> > believe the Wochiers system was one of them.
> 
> >From what I recall of the article, they all had government type 0, and were 
> outside the Imperium or other intersteller governments.
> 
> I suppose I can reach over and grab my JTAS:
> 
>    Thanber (Querion 0707)

  B-243653-C Po Ni

>    Tremous Dex (Vilis 0501)

  B-511411-C Ni G

>    Debarre (Darrian 0810)

  B-854123-9 Ni G

>    Asteltine (District-268 0101)

  B-7A7402-A Ni

>    Trexalon (District-268 0509)

  B-361851-C Ri

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jun 98 20:38:05 -0500
From: eris@pen.net
Subject: Re: Subs & Sandwiches

On 06/01/98 at 05:06 PM,  "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
said:

>>   How many days in advance do you have to announce your destination to
>> acquire passengers? From the 14 day trip, probably 4-5 days to get the
>> full #'s indicated on the chart. Quite possibly the same for standard
>> uses of various cargo/freight charts.

>Debatable.  In CT you anounce you destination an then
>passengers sign on, impling they wait for ships to show
>up.  This is particularly likely to be true in systems
>were ships are less common.  I don't see any reason why
>you always have to wait for cargo

Agreed.  It probably takes a day in port to unload a cargo, load
another, take on passengers, fuel the ship and take on any supplies it
needs.  Ship's might spend another day or two in port, but I don't
think they'd *normally* spend more time on the ground than that.

Merchant ships average about 1 jump every two weeks.  IMTU, it takes
slow ships a day or more to get to and from the jump point..and that's
*best* case.  Even fast merchant ships use about twelve hours getting
to and from a jump point.  Combining that with three or four days in
port and you're talking about a week between jumps, but only two or
three of those days are in port.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 10:42:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Piracy (long)

In mail you write:

>>I keep wondering why people expect criminals to balance books,
>>pay proper maintenance and otherwise act like honest businessmen.
>>So they can't create a conventional revenue stream - neither are they
>>paying taxes or doing a lot of things as they are expected to.
>>You LS costs are going to be pretty low when you're stealing all the
>>things that make it possible. 

"balancing the books" is enforced by the *universe* my friend. We're
saying that *nobody* can keep one putting out more than they are taking
in.

For example, your comment about LS costs is a good example. If they are
stealing the LS from the ships they are hitting, then they *have* to
hit a ship every few weeks. Because ships generally don't carry a lot
of extra life support. Not "normal grade" life support anyway. And the
pirates would get *real* tired of emergency rations and and the
emergency air and water recycling measures. 

Yes, it's a good idea to steal things like life support materials and
anything you can use to help maintain your own ship. But it's a *bad*
idea to be *dependent* on such. Because there *will* come a day when
that dependence either forces you to go after a ship when you'd really
rather not, or worse yet, you wind up in deep trouble because there's
no ship around when you *need* one.

>   Well, the pirates need to make money, as the crew aren't going to be
> keen on ponying up their savings to buy shares in an enterprise that's
> losing money. Proper maintenance has a downside to avoidance; +1 to 
> misjump - the Navy may not even have to chase you.
>
>   FWIW, I consider the annual maintenance requirement to be avoidable
> as long as the parts are purchased and skilled crew time is allocated.
> The starport visitation detail is (IMO) unrealistic for our purposes.

It's why you don't see a lot of pirates using larger vessels in the
real world. Between fuel requirements, and maintenance requirements you
wind up limited to the size vessel that can be maintained with an
ordinary machine shop. 

It's easy to refuel a vessel that uses regular gas or diesel. A big
ship that uses something like bunker C is useless unless you've got
port officials somewhere who will look the other way. Traveller is a
lot more friendly this way. 

But you still hit a snag on any vessel above some fairly small size, as
they *must* have components to big to work on in anything but a
shipyard. And I'd say that's why there are annual maintenance visits
required. 

Sure, it makes things a lot harder for pirates IN THE CENTER OF THE
IMPERIUM. On the other hand, in Vargyr space nobody gives a damn unless
it's one of *their* ships you've raided. Likewise in frontier areas.

So a pirate could operate in or from the Vargyr extents, just making
sure that he doesn't raid anybody from the (very) pocket empire that
he's using as a base.

Or in frontier areas, you may have some planet that's more interested
in the cargo you can bring in than in how you get it. This would
require a ship of a tech level that they can help you maintain, but
that just changes the odds a bit.

>>But seriously, the only organization I'm talking about is a couple weeks'
>>mining work with a Seeker model scout (hidden asteroid base),
>>a pile of supplies lifted from one of the hundreds of military caches,
>>and a Free/Far Trader crew of challenged enough ethics to take on
>>loads of cargo of questionable origin. If a couple pirate ships share
>>bases (and only the Navigator needs know where the bases actually
>>are, improving security), you've got yourself a syndicate - it can grow
>>naturally, assuming a few pirates survive their entry into the business
>>long enough to start planning for the future.

Now there is a possibility I've discussed in the past. Find a lost
"calibration point" base from before the long night. Especially if it
has a repair & retrieval type ship (think of a battle rider's tender,
but intended to retrieve and do major repairs on ships that got their
jump drives damaged). Such wouldn't be enough to completely substitute
for a shipyard for "big" ships (10,000 and up) but for the type of
ships players or pirates are using it could, give a supply of parts.
Which the base would also have, albeit old-fashioned ones. 

Finding something like that could tempt someone. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 11:13:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: X-boat Sandwiches

In mail you write:

>>>...it would be very reasonable to have
>>>ships carrying official bulletins in their computers to be downloaded to
>>>the next StarPort Authority on the ship's arrival insystem.  (I'm
>>>thinking we had this discussion before).  In that package there would be
>>>information on all ships with filed flight plans, announced next ports
>>>of call, anticipated dignitaries' itineraries, etc. for that port of
>>>call.  It would be date stamped (Imperial time).
>
>> Don't X-boats and couriers do this sort of thing? Presumably also
>>mail-contracts may handle some electronic work in some jurisdictions
>>(although unlikely for security reasons, I guess).
>
> IMO the Imperium would be very concerned about using X-boats for non
> imperial mail. Otherwise enemies of the Imperium could use the X-boat
> system to their advantage against the Imperium (by sending coded
> messages hidden in innocent looking documents, etc.). As the political
> process would be slow to enact imperial edicts this would put the
> enemies one jump ahead.

It's pretty well established that the X-boat system *does* carry
non-government mail. Think of it as being the Imperial Postal Service.
Government stuff has *priority*. But carrying private and commercial
traffic helps keep the Imperium together. 
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 23:02:02 EDT
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Rome again?

Phillip McGregor said:
>I  ... am currently working on a Sourcebook for Ancient Rome (from the
>Republic to the Late [Byzantine] Empire) for a startup company and, possibly,
>have some work in developing elements of a new SF RPG system for another
>startup company.

I am insulted that I was not approached. Not that I would have had time to do
it, but this will be about the 17th RPG guide to Ancient Rome that I didn't
get to write. 

<sniff>

Ah well. Say "La Guerre." As long as you don't perpetuate any old
cliches...(if you talk about lead pipes causing the fall of the Empire I will
scream).

Loren ("La Guerre") Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 23:25:08 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Piracy (long) 

> For example, your comment about LS costs is a good example. If they are
> stealing the LS from the ships they are hitting, then they *have* to
> hit a ship every few weeks. Because ships generally don't carry a lot
> of extra life support. Not "normal grade" life support anyway. And the
> pirates would get *real* tired of emergency rations and and the
> emergency air and water recycling measures. 
> 
> Yes, it's a good idea to steal things like life support materials and
> anything you can use to help maintain your own ship. But it's a *bad*
> idea to be *dependent* on such. Because there *will* come a day when
> that dependence either forces you to go after a ship when you'd really
> rather not, or worse yet, you wind up in deep trouble because there's
> no ship around when you *need* one.

Ever read Piper's 'Space Viking'?  In it, the good guys (and the bad guys too) 
*built* their own spaceports & bases.  What's to stop a pirate from building 
his own B or C port in some out of the way place like an asteroid belt or in 
the Kuiper Belt of a fair to middlin tech system?  Such a base would be 
*perfect* for annual refits and maintanance.

Question is, how much would one of these bases *cost*?

A scenario for you, if you will.  A group of larcenous violent minded 
individuals (i.e., PC's) decide to go at piracy in a Big Way.  They set up a 
front trading company on some mid-tech world.  Law level is unimportant.  They 
use this front company to filter stolen goods back into the mainstream, after 
redoing paperwork on them.  They scam up enough front money to *BUY* the 
equipment to build their hideaway port, then ship it in their own hulls to the 
place they want to build.  Once it's built, they move the equipment to other 
out of the way places and build resupply caches, and finally sell the stuff 
off to recoup some of their investment.  They hire talent from the mainstream 
after thourough backround checks for their 'darkside' operations, looking for 
technical competence and contempt of lawful authority.  Depending on what the 
strike teams swiped, sell Zhodani-taken cargoes in the Sword Worlds, SW stuff 
in the Imperium, etc.  Unless of course you can properly sanitise the serial 
numbers.  <grin>

> But you still hit a snag on any vessel above some fairly small size, as
> they *must* have components to big to work on in anything but a
> shipyard. And I'd say that's why there are annual maintenance visits
> required. 

You'd need some place to sit the boat down.  But it doesn't have to be a state 
of the art TL15 A port.

> >>But seriously, the only organization I'm talking about is a couple weeks'
> >>mining work with a Seeker model scout (hidden asteroid base),
> >>a pile of supplies lifted from one of the hundreds of military caches,
> >>and a Free/Far Trader crew of challenged enough ethics to take on
> >>loads of cargo of questionable origin. If a couple pirate ships share
> >>bases (and only the Navigator needs know where the bases actually
> >>are, improving security), you've got yourself a syndicate - it can grow
> >>naturally, assuming a few pirates survive their entry into the business
> >>long enough to start planning for the future.
> 
> Now there is a possibility I've discussed in the past. Find a lost
> "calibration point" base from before the long night. Especially if it
> has a repair & retrieval type ship (think of a battle rider's tender,
> but intended to retrieve and do major repairs on ships that got their
> jump drives damaged). Such wouldn't be enough to completely substitute
> for a shipyard for "big" ships (10,000 and up) but for the type of
> ships players or pirates are using it could, give a supply of parts.
> Which the base would also have, albeit old-fashioned ones. 

Or, just 'jack (or *BUY*) an XBoat tender for use as a portable 'factory & maintanance' ship.  Big enough to do the job, hell, it's *DESIGNED* to do the job.  Just cop spares for the offbeat boats you have from any Class A or B yard that'll sell 'em, which should be just about any when you show them the cash.

Personally, I'd think that if the pirate fleet is flying boats over 10KDT, they're looking for trouble.  Think *SMALL*.  1000DT or smaller, with the occaisional 5000DT tender/container freighter.

Now if somebody could explain where all those corsair ships come from...  <grin>

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 21:02:20 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Piracy
...
>There is a big gap between not having enough time to even
>take cargo and being able to fix battle damage.  Also, if
>you take cargo you just need to chase the crew into staterooms
>and lock them in.  If you take the whole ship you have to
>deal with taking the crew (in a way that they don't know
>enough to testify against you later)

  How is the amount of evidence/info gained much different if
you leave the ship as opposed to removing it? Wouldn't the ship
itself actually contain potentially lethal info after the encounter,
and leaving it behind thus be more compromising?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 21:00:22 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Rome again?

At 11:02 PM 6/1/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Phillip McGregor said:
>>I  ... am currently working on a Sourcebook for Ancient Rome (from the
>>Republic to the Late [Byzantine] Empire) for a startup company and,
possibly,
>>have some work in developing elements of a new SF RPG system for another
>>startup company.
>
>I am insulted that I was not approached. Not that I would have had time to do
>it, but this will be about the 17th RPG guide to Ancient Rome that I didn't
>get to write. 
>
><sniff>
>
>Ah well. Say "La Guerre." As long as you don't perpetuate any old
>cliches...(if you talk about lead pipes causing the fall of the Empire I will
>scream).

Don't be silly, it was lesbian Aslan pirates spreading Virus on near-C
rocks.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 20:53:42 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Bank robbery

At 04:40 AM 6/1/98 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:

>> Another good myth is that no-one ever escaped from Alcatraz Federal Prison.
>>  The story goes that nobody could survive the freezing water (46 F on
>> average), the strong currents, and the sharks which cruise the bay.  But
>> after one breakout the found one of the prisoners asleep under the North
>> tower of the Golden Gate Bridge.  He had survived the swim, but was too
>> tired to continue.
>
>Heck, that happened *several* times. A more popular point to swim for
>were the docks about a mile away.

Except the docks were heavily patrolled, and in those days a good place to
be sucked into a frieghter's screws.  Easier to let the tide carry you
towards the Golden Gate and try for the Marin shore, which was still mostly
wilderness.

Oddly enough, today was the annual Escape from Alcatraz triathlon.  Read
all about it at:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1998/06/01
/SP346244.DTL


- --

+--------------------------------------+
|Douglas E. Berry    dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
+--------------------------------------+
| "In the long run luck is given       |
|  only to the efficient."             |
|     -Helmuth von Moltke, German Army |
+--------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 00:35:13 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Rome again?

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> Ah well. Say "La Guerre."

Ok.  La Guerre.  The War.  Why?Oh!  You mean "C'est La Guerre" as in
"C'est La Vie, C'est La Guerre" - Such is Life, Such id War.


I'm drowning in the angst.

:-P


Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 21:33:41 -0700
From: "Brannon \"Ben\" Boren" <brannonb@blarg.net>
Subject: Trav Characters Good or Evil?

Greetings All,

I recall an article in one of the popular gaming mags some years back
(doesn't matter which one) which was comparing characters from the various
space RPGs. Traveller got the quote (paraphrased) "a game where the average
PC is little better than a terrorist."

Now I don't typically make up characters who are outright evil, and this
quote came back to me as I was leafing through a copy of the old CT
supplement "76 Patrons" yesterday.  Strangely, a good number (not all, but
quite a few) of the adventure seeds are along the lines of: a patron asks
the players to perform a kidnapping, steal something, run arms to
terrorists, hijack a ship, or even outright assassination.

Now, with the suggested (implied: recommended) type of activity for typical
characters being criminal in nature, I guess it's no wonder that Traveller
picked up this kind of rep. It's just my opinion, but I don't think that
characters necessarily have to be criminals to have exciting adventures in
the Imperium (though I'm not knocking it if it's your kind of game).

Then I noticed that the "design" credit for the book is by no other than
Loren Wiseman - one of our participants here.  Now don't get me wrong - I'm
not attacking Loren's work or anything. But since he's working on the
GURPS:Traveller project, I wondered if he might be enticed to comment on
how the new game "slants" characters. Is there any effort being made to
address this issue (i.e. that most characters soon end up as wanted
criminals) in the new incarnation of Traveller?

Anyone else care to comment?

Ben

- --
Brannon "Ben" Boren
brannonb@blarg.net
http://www.mog.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 01:01:01 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Piracy 

> >From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
> >Subject: Re: Piracy
> ...
> >There is a big gap between not having enough time to even
> >take cargo and being able to fix battle damage.  Also, if
> >you take cargo you just need to chase the crew into staterooms
> >and lock them in.  If you take the whole ship you have to
> >deal with taking the crew (in a way that they don't know
> >enough to testify against you later)
> 
>   How is the amount of evidence/info gained much different if
> you leave the ship as opposed to removing it? Wouldn't the ship
> itself actually contain potentially lethal info after the encounter,
> and leaving it behind thus be more compromising?

Probably.  So, your 1KDT 'catcher' ship pulls the wreck close enough to jump 
away with it.  If it's small enough to close the bay doors on it, say, up to 
maybe 4, 500 DT, your techs get to spend the next week stripping it out and 
cutting up the hull for scrap metal.  If it's not big enough to work on in 
shirtsleeves, they peel everything away from the walls that will fit in the 
hold of the catcher, and when the catcher gets into normal space in a 
relatively save place, cuts the hull up for scrap metal & stores everything in 
the cargo bay, or offloads it to one of the flotilla's cargo hulls.  <grin>

If you *can't* tie it down to a 'catcher' ship, either fire up the manuver 
drives enough to send it either into the local star or into deep space at best 
speed.  Or rig it to jump to your hideout.  Or make it deliberately misjump.  
(grin)

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 01:42:56 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: How Does Treece Maintain an SDB Fleet? 

> Hello all.
> 
> Douglas raised an issue -- how can a D-starport, low-tech world
> like Treece maintain a system defense boat?
> 
> * First off, Treece can only afford 1 or 2 SDBs and a small handful
>   of fighters; therefore, there won't be scads of in-system support
>   personnel.

High Guard Ed 2, p20, para 6:  A planetary navy may procure ships at any 
shipyard within the borders of its subsector; alternatively, a planetary navy 
may construct ships on its planet, using local resources, even if a shipyard 
is not present.

How I'd do it would be to procure the weapons, weapon control, computer, and 
advanced fusion gear offworld, then put them into a locally-produced hull.  
Since it's a nonstarship, the TL 8 facilities won't be too much of a hassle.

> * I assume it would have to be on a standard, 40-year rent-to-own
>   plan, with monthly 1/240 payments.  Delivery would be by some
>   ship carrier, corporate or Imperial.  $$$

Or a Marshall Plan deal.  Or the boats could be bought surplus after a 20-40 
year history with another navy.  This would cut down on building costs.

> * All maintenance would have to be done by off-worlders; i.e. a
>   house-call-driven maintenance ship, either corporate or Imperial. $$$

Only if the boats were produced offworld.

> * Defense personnel would be military, which resolves the standard-of-
>   living issue.

Or reservists.

> * All of these issues are waived if the system (like Treece) is a
>   Captive Government -- obviously, the owning system supplies all
>   necessary resources.  Problem solved.
> 
> Now, the question in my mind is: are these local defenses Imperial
> or really Local?  If Local, then Imperial forces will be protecting
> the starport, and local forces protect the worlds and spaceports,
> is that correct?

Homegrown boats are DEFINITELY local.  Presumably, stuff picked up on Marshall Plan/lend-lease deals from the subsector navy would be locally commanded but part of the subsector navy's reserve.  In case of war, jump-capable stuff might conceivably be called up, while the non-jump stuff would stay behind.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 23:31:15 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: piracy

Hello,
>From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
>Subject: Re: piracy
...
>>   It's a one-time "I'm outta here" sort of event compared to a plan
>> of repeated chicken stealing which is more likely to end in failure
>> than success; and each cargo-robbing (from a starship) has the potential
>> to become a career completing ship theft. I have a lot of trouble seeing
>> why such a rational course of action wouldn't be followed.
>
>Who says that a man (or woman) that chooses to go pirate is a rational
>human being. You seem to implie that everybody thinks rationally all the
>time, but the fact is that there is millions out there in the real world
>today that propably never thought a rational thought their entire life. 

  Sure. However, I'm going to need to see some substantial clinical data
before I concede that an irrational/mentally deficient individual is better
suited to operating such an exceedingly complicated operation as even a
single small pirate ship, let alone a sub-sector spanning crime ring.

  For most potential pirates economic motives have to be assumed,
which implies economic actions.

>A pirate might have hundreds of reasons to do what they do, and for every
>successful ship that goes pirate there is propably a lot that never make
>it. I don't think that it is as easy as you implie. Take the ship, make
>the profit (hopefully), buy new identity and start a new life. /...

  My point is that getting to the liquid asset pay-off is the hardest part.
If the Imperium pays as little attention to starship regulation as most of
the other pro-piracy people insist, then why would the Imperium pay more
attention to a random private citizen of some forlorn planet?

...
>A "crazy" pirate with a goal and intelligence is going to be a real hazzel
>for everybody, just because he thinks that he can make it. And he propably
>will for a while, and with luck on his side he can go a far far way.

  How many "crazy" would-be pirates will have ships? Presumably out and out
crazies and sociopaths will be filtered out after 5-10 years in either the
military or a merchant line. Admittedly, they might not notice in the IISS. 

...
>>   All of this begs a question about the personnel structure of the various
>> navies; are the majority of crew short-timers (conscripts?) or is a large
>> proportion of the crew going to have lots of time in grade?
>
>I would quess that small ships with small crews will have people tha have
>been in the service for some while. While larger ships will have a larger
>turnover in their ensigns. Just my opinion.

  The dynamics of the ratings skill-sets and the job market may require
that many positions be long-term careers with commensurate compensation.
Many of those other ranks will have social ties that make mutinying and/
or going pirate an unacceptable choice. That would make such a mutiny
exceedingly rare, and equally messy.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

        

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #543
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Tuesday, June 2 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 544



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Piracy
Re: Subs & Sandwiches
Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)
Re: Imperial Navy taskings (not piracy?)
Re: Hijacking summation?
Re: Trav Characters Good or Evil?
Re: Product List for Megatraveller
Piracy economics
Re: Piracy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 00:04:45 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy

Mon, 01 Jun 1998 21:02:20 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>There is a big gap between not having enough time to even
>>take cargo and being able to fix battle damage.  Also, if
>>you take cargo you just need to chase the crew into staterooms
>>and lock them in.  If you take the whole ship you have to
>>deal with taking the crew (in a way that they don't know
>>enough to testify against you later)

>  How is the amount of evidence/info gained much different if
>you leave the ship as opposed to removing it?

If you take the whole ship, you either have to kill the crew
(which ups the importance of the crime) or you have to interact
with them (letting them get a good look at you).

>Wouldn't the ship
>itself actually contain potentially lethal info after the encounter,
>and leaving it behind thus be more compromising?

Like what?

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 00:53:56 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Subs & Sandwiches

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Subs & Sandwiches
...
>>   By definition, the vast majority of traffic (at least by tonnage)
>> is to high-traffic systems whose mainworld security will be pirate
>> proof.  Traffic being low at some time would require statistical
>> anomalies that are only really possible at truly backwater worlds
>> (not to say that it doesn't happen). This technique, _even in the
>> absence of another traffic security system_, simply reduces the
>> practical traffic horizon at which mainworld piracy can be believed
>> that much lower.
>
>Um no.  by definition "more" traffic has to be to high traffic
>worlds.  But this doesn't even require that the majority
>of traffic be to such systems (let along the "vast majority")

  Umm, yes. Look at/imagine the volumes of trade between worlds, with
some consideration to the economic predominance of the pop 9+ worlds.
I happen to have some problems with those models, but those are the
ones being kicked around.

  According to canon, there are single planets out there whose economies
exceed those of the bottom half or two-thirds (at least) of the 11,000
worlds in the Imperium _combined_. High-pop planets, and any system in
close proximity to them, will not be low or even medium traffic in any
meaningful sense of the word. Mr. Eaglestone's post on Jae Tellona
comes to mind.

>Second of all, even from high traffic systems, certain
>destinations can be uncommon and it is quite possible, even
>along medium traffic routes, to have several ships
>leave one day and then have none for the next week.

  Statistically and economically unlikely. Some of the cargo
volume on any but the least travelled routes will be regular
runs, and several small companies running such could mean a
departure every day or two. Some analysis of the trade volumes
in a pairing would be needed for more conclusive discussion.

...
>Debatable.  In CT you anounce you destination an then
>passengers sign on, impling they wait for ships to show
>up.  This is particularly likely to be true in systems
>were ships are less common.  I don't see any reason why
>you always have to wait for cargo, but even if you 
>did, you aren't sure when you will fill up so you will
>_still_ have the situation of not wanting to hang around
>waiting for another ship to leave first once you get
>that last bit of cargo.  (What you are requiring is
>that you have some time you need to wait after you have
>gotten your last passenger and cargo before you leave).

  Presumably in CT ships spent those extra days on the world doing
something; it's reasonable to conclude that it was business related.
Obviously the tramp freighters for whom the basic charts are designed
take passengers who can't or won't use regularly scheduled runs (as
you pointed out, there may not be any).

  While not stated clearly (IIRC) in the CT rules, presumably you can't
just wait around until your ship fills up, as both passengers and freight
have expected deadlines. If you know from arrival (or before) where you
expect to go, you announce destination and departure time and start getting
a load put together. If a ship is heading to your destination, you, a 
passenger, or someone acting on behalf of someone could send a message ahead.

  There is no requirement to delay your announced departure.

  If the passengers and freight are just waiting for you, why is turnaround
not much closer to the order of 9-10 days for those tight-margin tramps?

>Well, you are not restricting yourself to only leaving after
            ^^^^^?
>a ship that is an X-boat or is carrying an agent or passenger
>you can trust with the info.  More delays ensue.

  Send a letter? Presumably the crew are too busy to read all of 
the several thousand (10,000's?) of messages they might carry as
physical or electronic cargo?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 01:03:38 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)
...
>>  The above sounds like an impossible situation for law enforcement
>>units to accomplish anything. No records are cross-checked, no black
>>boxes exist to be inspected occasionally, ship licensing is minimal,
>>personnel, manifests, and passenger registers are not maintained or
>>cross-checked. I'm surprised that any bank would loan money to any
>>private individual(s) to throw away money on what is after all a 
>>getaway car.
>
>Well, ironically this is not worse than a policeman faced in
>determining if a car was stolen before they all had access
>to computer records (and before they had radios they couldn't
>even check for cars that were wanted _right now_).  It
>worked to provide a significant deterant for years providing
>one situation in which stealing a car was not a sure thing.

  The issue then becomes why a society with clear economic and security
concerns would decline to use the most effective (and cost-efficient)
mechanisms available to them.

>We get caught up in the way we do things today and forget
>that it isn't the only possible way.

  I see it all the time. Luckily one of my hobbies is the history
of taxation and fiscal administrations; it adds a bit of perspective.

...
>That could be a complication.  You don't see military ship
>doing this to bypass worlds.  In any case, you have a potential
>for a lot more problems than people smuggling things into
>the Imerium (and entire Vargr raiding fleet, or a Zhodani

  This is a big problem I have with both drop tanks (and especially)
deep space depots; it seems to contradict much of the strategic history
of the background.

>invasion fleet, would be able to strick deep into the
>Imperium without warning).  My guess it that the Imperium
>does what the US does (since the US doesn't have boarders any
>tighter and also isn't willing to stop and search every
>vehicle that travels inside the US), it has agents outside
>the boarders keeping an eye on those who would bring such
>things in.

  I'm amazed that the Imperium (without real-time commo or
secure couriers) would consider a network of external agents
to be any kind of substitute for effective internal security.

...
>than active prevention in the Imperium.  Which is why I
>don't see them using inspections.  If they can prevent
>people from using nukes on the plane they were made, stolen,
>etc. then they can use the same method on nukes from
>different planets without disrupting trade.

  What about the minor fact that this provides a wondeful supply of
illegal nukes for other uses, including terrorism, private wars, and
arming pirates, political dissidents, etc?

>>  Finding nukes on ships crossing Imperial space is practical.
>>Nuclear dampers, rad counters, and (if allowed) deep radar all
>>have applications.
>
>I don't agree.  You are talking about intrusive inspection
>of every ship on every jump.  Nukes can be shield.

  No, I'm talking about random inspections at a level which provides
a state of security that the Imperium finds acceptable. The other is
possible, but leads more to an Orwellian Imperium, which wouldn't be
much fun unless playing the Rebels from Star Wars.

  How do you plan to shield your nukes?

>I don't beleive cursory inspections are even going to come
>close to stoping the movement of nukes.

  If you have a 5% chance of being searched and illegal nukes being
found, what penalty will be enough to make you not even consider the
risk? The vast majority of smugglers can be deterred with some variant
of that calculation.

>with.  However, for nukes the Imperium appears to desire
>to prevent any occurences by people (enemy agents, terrorists,
>etc.) that are willing to take some significant risk.  
>Random inspections won't work here.

  Good point. By choosing not to attempt controlling the sources,
you've postulated an Imperium which has no real defense against 
nuclear terrorism. I can only assume that was your objective.

        Steevn Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 01:17:33 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Navy taskings (not piracy?)

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Navy taskings (not piracy?)
...
>> >There is never "money left over" in large organizations. 
...
>>   In fact, the Navy almost appears to be the only organ of the
>> Imperium.
>
>It is from a gamers point of view.  The money flowing through
>the nobilty will be a big budget.  So will the Scout service

  Isn't the nobility self-supporting?

  The Scouts obviously have a budget (some for defense tasks)
but they also have an income from the x-boat operations.

>(including the Xboats).  You also have the Imperial Research
>stations.  The cost of all those starports.  The Imperial

  You think the Imperium runs all the starports? Why do they
not use that opportunity to at least cover costs? This would
also radically simplify internal security issues by allowing
regular (random?) inspections.

>court system.  What ever passes for the FBI and CIA (the
>political aspects, the military would be in the military).

  Yep. Parts of those may be funded locally, but that would
be a Bad Idea from the central gov'ts POV. They did do it, `tho.

>There is also the Army (they not be as big, but if you 
>are holding planets by preventing the landing of troops
>they are significant.  What else is there?  Does the

  The Imperium appears to favour preventing the landing of troops
by nuking troop transports. The Army seems to be a local responsibility,
with the Marines being the relevant parasites on the Navy budget.

>Emperor get a cut?  (Just how damn rich is he?)

  See below. Who knows what he does with it all. Fishing trips?

...
>think of (weights and measures, diplomatic corp, etc.)

  I'm pretty sure that standards will cost less to administer
than, say, controlling and inspecting for nuclear weapons.

  The diplomatic corp may very well (at least from the M:0 POV)
cost exceedingly little; if you use the pre-20th C. British model
of using aristocrats in political posts (i.e., Parliament) then
paying them is not an issue, as they'll happily pay for the privilege
of exercising power and influence.

>They may not be as big, but they certainly wouldn't mind more
>money.  On top of that, there is the pressure to lower
>taxes from economic interests.  There won't be any 
>money "left over".  It doesn't happen.

  All money taken in will be allocated, of course. The pressure
to lower taxes would seem very weak from your proposal on how to
address the implementation of a possible Jump-station system.

>> The feudally based administration has its' own revenues
>> from fiefs
>
>Yeah, it might come of the top rather than the bottom line,
>it is still competing for money that might go to the
>Imperium.

  How so? Didn't the Empire accept the forfeiture of the regular
use of that income when they assigned the fief?

>>, the Imperial family owns major shares in the largest
>> economic engines in the 3I;
>
>I think that sticks with the Imperial Family (rather than
>going into the Imperium).  

  Yes, but it strongly implies that the Emperor doesn't need a cut,
as you wondered about earlier in your post.

...
>Then, in descreasing order, bases (this is where programs
>for enlisted men get put), administration, military
>intellegence, military R&D.

  Sounds good. While the bulk of R&D goes on at Imperial Research
Stations (wherever _they_ get their funding), it seems that specific
developments (particularly applications to testbeds) should go on 
at Naval Depots, for example.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 01:44:07 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Hijacking summation?

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Hijacking summation?
...
>> >away today.  You either convince them you are the sort of
>> >person who will kill you out of spite if you double
>> >cross them, or you actually be that sort of person.

  OK, I'll buy that, but it's another (small?) source of failure.

...
>>   True, but there will be a close correlation between the amount
>> of traffic and the likelihood of that condition being trivially
>> easy.  Scheduled ships in general can do this effortlessly. A
>>tramp could quite reasonably fall into the other category.
>
>I don't see this.  Being on a schedule doesn't mean that
>a ship is leaving two days before you.  (Unless you
>are on a world where ships are leaving, without delay,
>every day or so to every possible destination).  This
>will occur on only the larger worlds.

  Being on a known schedule in a heavy traffic system very strongly
implies that there are other scheduled trips.

...
>they just can't take the inspector hostage to demand fuel.
>Or hold a gun in his back while he radios "all OK" to the
>station.  And even if you have them dead to rights, you
>have the problem of them deciding to blow the inspector
>(and the station if it's not guarded) away and trying
>to escape in system (criminals do things like that..)

  Presumably security regulations do in fact specify firing
in such hostage taking situations. Otherwise the system is
hopelessly easy to compromise. The station being sufficiently
undergunned not to waste a small freighter effortlessly is
ridiculous; such a fuel station would serve many of the functions
of a high port, certainly enough to justify/require many thousands
of tons of fittings.

  If the fuel station were that helpless, it also becomes difficult
to see how anyone could argue that they wouldn't be a massive
strategic liability in case of war.

...
>>   You do realize that in the real world certain "crimes" absorb
>> far more resources than makes sense under the oft-repeated (on the
>> TML, anyway, IIRC I've never run across it anywhere else) model
>> above; drugs (as in "war on..."), murder, and state security issues.
>
>Not all crimes.  Some crimes get politicized and garner 
>disproportionate resources while other languish.  One
>could assume that hijacking is one of these.  However,
>that would be just that, an _assumption_, that doesn't
>prove they can occur.  In anycase, this wouldn't work
>forever because political winds shift and a crime that
>was high profile in one period is not in another.

  As an economic crime, how often in the future would you
suggest that counting economic losses becomes unfashionable?

  If the Imperium doesn't consider piracy and hijacking serious
crimes, then the Imperium is a farce and canon is meaningless.
The primary purpose of this state, and its claim to legitimacy,
is its ability to secure interstellar space for the peaceful and
unmolested use of its citizens.

  FWIW, hijacking very likely involves multiple murderm which effectively
all societies have had the most serious sanctions against (although what
acts upon whom count is another thing). 

...
>All being insured means is that the money you spent for insurance
>exeeds the potential losses times the probability of loss. 
...

  Being insured means that (in addition to covering the insurers costs
and profits) that if Something Bad Happens, you're not bankrupt. There
are terms in the business world for people who don't insure when they
can't afford the potential loss that they're risking.
 
...
>>    BTW, what other anti-hijacking measures do you propose that would
>> obviate the need for insurance
>
>I think tracking them down later when they try and sell the
>ship would be be biggie?  So would shipboard security.  (Both
>anti hihack programs and making sure nobody caries weapons
>on board).

  What you're suggesting is virtually impossible in your suggested
regulatory regime. Once a ship gets stolen by any means the ship is
seemingly home free, AFAI can tell.

...
>And spending money on every possible inspection and patrol
>doesn't fit with the model of a decentralized, laise-faire,
>society.

  Let's take this more slowly. _Some_ inspections and _some_
patrolling will go a long way towards controlling the problems.
We've already established that laise-faire in this context is
meaningless, so let's try decentralized. The Imperium runs very
few institutions, mostly prescribing limited regulations, and
except for the Navy and IISS leaving implementation to local
authorities.

  Presumably the Navy actually carries out some missions that would
be relevant to both its' and the Imperiums excuse for existing. If
local authorities choose to add to that minimum (_not_ minimal) level
then that _is_ decentralized decision making in action.

>>   "Tamper-proof" transponders are products of the background;
>
>Transponders are.  I don't know if they are explicitly
>tamperproof.  If they are, that is pretty unrealitic.

  Yes, they are. I agree. Talk to the publishers?

>Besides they are a later addition that was symptom of
>simply assuming everything everywhere must work like
>we in our Western society have decided to make them work.

  So? They were added, period. FWIW, the Imperium clearly does
not work like the modern West works.

>>   You do realize that modern commerce isn't particularly heavily
>> regulated relative to our ability to do so, don't you?
>
>You realize that it is also very regulated compared to 
>many periods in history, don't you?

  Actually, yes, it being one of my specialties, as indicated in the
text you snipped:

>  You do realize that modern commerce isn't particularly heavily
>regulated relative to our ability to do so, don't you? If you
>want to see really stifling regulation, try any text on early
>modern French internal customs, particularly the reform efforts
>towards the end of the 1700's (where they documented their system
>at length).

  However, compared to most recent, comparable periods we're actually
not heavily regulated at all (taxed, yes, but that's another story).

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:27:40 +0100 (BST)
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Trav Characters Good or Evil?

Isn't this why Mega Traveller was invented, not only to improve the rule
set, but so the players could have adventures, of any nature and be on the
good side (ie fighting for the correct faction), and not always being on
the run from the authories (unless you count the enemy faction).

TNE was just an extention of this by saving civilisation from the evil
hords of the galaxy, ie TED's and viruses, but with a jar head outlook.

Ewan

	Ewan Quibell
	Data Communications Technician        The Game's afoot:
	Computer Centre                       Follow your spirit, and apon
	University of Brighton                  this charge
                                              Cry 'God for Harry, England,
	E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              and Saint George !'

                                                    Henry V 3:1
	#include<stddisclamer.h>                    W. Shakespeare

	My spelling is entierly due to dyslexia, typoes and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:57:52 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Product List for Megatraveller

Marc (CardSharks@aol.com) replied to the following request:

<< Is there a product list for Megatraveller ? >>

>I believe this one is complete and correct.

>Marc

>MEGATRAVELLER
>         MegaTraveller Boxed Set
>         Players Handbook
>         Referee?s Handbook
>         Imperial Encyclopedia
>         Referee's Companion
>         Rebellion Sourcebook
>         COACC
>         Fighting Ships
>         Knightfall
>         Hard Times
>         Arrival Vengeance
>         Assignment Vigilante
>         Astrogator?s Guide to Diaspora



Well, the two 'Handbook' titles above are actually 'Manual' unless Marc has
different editions to any I've seen.


It should be noted, this is only the GDW list.  DGP also produced
MegaTraveller material:

The MegaTraveller Alien, Volume 1: Vilani and Vargr: The Coreward Races
The MegaTraveller Alien, Volume 2: Solomani and Aslan: The Rimward Races
101 Vehicles: an illustrated catalog
Starship Operator's Manual
World Builder's Handbook
The Flaming Eye: Campaign Sourcebook
Referee's Gaming Kit


And there were also two computer games published separately and also as a
combined CD (i.e. three products not counting different computer formats):
MegaTraveller 1: The Zhodani Conspiracy
MegaTraveller 2: Quest for the Ancients
MegaTraveller 1: The Zhodani Conspiracy & MegaTraveller 2: Quest for the
Ancients


Hope that's useful.


My apologies for the formatting errors in my previous alien animals answer.
I don't pretend to understand what happened.

Also, I meant who wrote the 'Bush Runners' article (not Kian which was of
course in the answer I gave!)?


tc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 13:01:09 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Piracy economics

Keven R. Pittsinger writes:

>Ever read Piper's 'Space Viking'?  In it, the good guys (and the bad guys
>too) *built* their own spaceports & bases. 

The economic conditions in Piper's universe differs from that of the OTU
(Official Traveller Universe).

>What's to stop a pirate from building his own B or C port in some out of
>the way place like an asteroid belt or in the Kuiper Belt of a fair to
>middlin tech system?

Absolutely nothing as long as he can pay for the necessary resources. Now
all you have to do is to demonstrate that he can capture enough ships and/
or cargo to make it worth while.

>Question is, how much would one of these bases *cost*?

Well, we could try to work something out, but I warn you that I have to
make several assumptions.

A starport capable of servicing one 600 T ship at a time (I chose 600 T
because I have a number of 600 T ship designs lying around) would be able
to perform annual maintenance on 26 ships/year. The cost of each refit
would depend on the exact nature of the ship. An average of 19 designs
ranging from jump-1 to jump-3 comes to a tad over MCr153. Perhaps I should
have weighted the jump-1 designs higher than the jump-2 than the jump-3,
but I haven't, so the figure is propably higher than what is realistic.
Anyway, let's say this shipyard can gross Cr150,000/two weeks or
Cr3,900,000/ year. How much of that money goes to cover expenses (salaries,
spare parts, etc.)? I have no idea, so I have to make a guess. Let's say
that Cr450,000 goes to salaries (6-10 people at some really good salaries)
and another Cr450,000 goes to spare parts. That gives a return of investment
of Cr3,000,000/year. Assume the same kind of return as a spaceship (6.25%)
and you get an investment of MCr48. Assume a lower rate of return (because
the investment is less risky than a ship) and you get a higher required
investment. A good figure would IMO be 5%. That would give you a required
investment of MCr60 or MCr10/100 T of ship to be serviced. Easy to work with.
So a pirate base able to service any number of corsairs (up to 26) would cost
you MCr40 _plus_ whatever extra costs you get because you have to transport
all the equipment from the world of manufacture to the pirate lair.
 
>A scenario for you, if you will.  A group of larcenous violent minded 
>individuals (i.e., PC's) decide to go at piracy in a Big Way.  They set up
>a front trading company on some mid-tech world.  Law level is unimportant.
>They use this front company to filter stolen goods back into the mainstream,
>after redoing paperwork on them. They scam up enough front money to *BUY*
>the equipment to build their hideaway port,

Say, MCr50?

>then ship it in their own hulls to the place they want to build. Once it's
>built, they move the equipment to other out of the way places and build
>resupply caches, and finally sell the stuff off to recoup some of their
>investment.

Oh, you're talking about digging equipment, etc.? OK, that would be in
addition to the MCr50 I'm talking about (which only covers the buildings
and machinery for performing annual maintenance plus a 20% surcharge to
cover transportation. And it dosen't cover the life support equipment
needed either).

>They hire talent from the mainstream  after thourough backround checks for
>their 'darkside' operations, looking for technical competence and contempt
>of lawful authority.

So we're talking inflated salaries here?

>Depending on what the  strike teams swiped, sell Zhodani-taken cargoes in
>the Sword Worlds, SW stuff in the Imperium, etc. 

If you capture Zhodani stuff in (say) Chronor subsector, then you're
adding the transport costs for hauling it about 12-15 parsecs. Assuming
jump-3 shipping and a four-jump route you're adding more than Cr6000/dT
to your expenses (twice that if your ship can't get a return freight).
Same principle applies to hauling SW stuff to the Imperium etc. (though
the exact figures vary, of course).

Since the average random Traveller cargo is worth about Cr5,000/dT that
would mean that you have to deliberately go for specific ships with
high-value cargoes in order to make that work, and that entails a whole
slew of added problems ranging from how you intercept specific ships
to said ships being more likely to be better armed than a normal ship
(and/or escorted). It still seems like a losing proposition to me.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 00:56:31 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Piracy

In mail you write:

> Sat, 30 May 1998 04:58:48 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
> Erickson)
> On taking cargoes vs ships....
>> On the other hand, if approaching system patrol craft are a problem,
>> then you aren't likely to be able to disable the merhant quickly enough
>> *anyway*. Not unless you've got some way f getting *really* close
>> un-noticed. 
>
>> If an approaching patrol *isn't* a problem, then you are interested in
>> the ship if it's at all easy to repair. It gives you more ships to work
>> with. 
>
> There is a big gap between not having enough time to even
> take cargo and being able to fix battle damage.  Also, if
> you take cargo you just need to chase the crew into staterooms
> and lock them in.  If you take the whole ship you have to
> deal with taking the crew (in a way that they don't know
> enough to testify against you later) or killing them
> (upping the profile of the crime and the level of effort
> that will be spend in catching you).  Probably not enough
> to say that one will never take the ship, but, in my mind,
> enough to say that a alot might not.

Not so minor detail. Piracy has been a capital crime as long as law has
existed. I doubt that it'll quit being one in the future. So there
*isn't* any extra risk in offing the crew. 

>> Which leads to the *big* problem with being a pirate. Annual
>> maintenance. In the days of sail, the ship'screw could do any
>> maintenance needed short of a major catastrophe. And they could do it
>> on their own. At worst they needed to lay in a supply of lumber at
>> their base.
>
> My guess is that you either find a corrupt maintenance facility
> or you get a good fake ID.  My guess is that if you are
> taking ships in piracy, you will actually sell them as
> parts rather than as whole ships (like they do with stolen
> cars).

This gets *much* harder when you start dealing with large vessels that
are *not* produced in the multiple millions per model. The parts are
both more identifiable, and harder to get rid of because they are
"model specific".

>> But what's a pirate in the Imperium going to do? He not only needs to
>> be able to sell his cargoes, he needs to be able to buy ordinance, and
>> get battle damage repaired.
>
> Well, he only needs odinance if he uses missles.  He may
> not get a lot of battle damage if he takes on unarmed
> ships.  And in any case he can just say he was attacked
> by pirate :-)

And then they ask why all the damage is on the *bow* of the ship rather
than the stern. (ie why was he heading *towards* the pirate, rather
than running away :-)

>> So he needs a
>> Class B port that doesn't *care* that he's a pirate.
>
> Well, not the whole port, only one repair facility, and then
> only if he can't pass for a legit ship.

Pretty much the whole port *admin* structure, as any port is going to
check transponder ID, and then check ships "papers" when it
docks/lands. 

After all, he can't afford to get repairs all *that* far from his area
of operation. So eventually news of a pirate that matches his ship's
description is going to be common knowledge at the port he's getting
repaired at. And his damage is going to match the reports. So either
folks will get suspicious leading to problems, or they have to know
what he's up to from the start.

Mind you, I think that a *non*-Imperium setting could do a nice job of
having pirates. Say something like the setting of most of Andre
Norton's SF. The "Guild" (think of the Mafia/Yakuza as a megacorp) is
powerful enough to have it's own bases in areas that non-guild folks
stay away from. And to have agents in the most unlikely places. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #544
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Tuesday, June 2 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 545



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Piracy (long)
Re: Piracy
Re: Planetary Geology
radiator materials
Re: Piracy [in Walter Smith's Traveller Universe]
Re: Traveller: World economics
Pirate maintenance
Re: Piracy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 01:27:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Piracy (long)

In mail you write:

>> For example, your comment about LS costs is a good example. If they are
>> stealing the LS from the ships they are hitting, then they *have* to
>> hit a ship every few weeks. Because ships generally don't carry a lot
>> of extra life support. Not "normal grade" life support anyway. And the
>> pirates would get *real* tired of emergency rations and and the
>> emergency air and water recycling measures. 
>> 
>> Yes, it's a good idea to steal things like life support materials and
>> anything you can use to help maintain your own ship. But it's a *bad*
>> idea to be *dependent* on such. Because there *will* come a day when
>> that dependence either forces you to go after a ship when you'd really
>> rather not, or worse yet, you wind up in deep trouble because there's
>> no ship around when you *need* one.
>
> Ever read Piper's 'Space Viking'?  In it, the good guys (and the bad guys 
> too) 
> *built* their own spaceports & bases.  What's to stop a pirate from building 
> his own B or C port in some out of the way place like an asteroid belt or in 
> the Kuiper Belt of a fair to middlin tech system?  Such a base would be 
> *perfect* for annual refits and maintanance.
>
> Question is, how much would one of these bases *cost*?

I've read Space Viking. Many times. It *tells* you what it costs. The
equipment for building the base was a major investment for his country
(Duchy?). The value of it was apparently equal to or greater than the
value of the ship!

Also, they were using rather larger ships. Where cargo capacity was
*not* a serious limitation.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 01:12:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Piracy

In mail you write:


>>The Webpage was stunningly informative. I hadn't realised 
>>how prevalent piracy was in the modern world, with all the 
>>advantages of GPS, instant world wide communications, and a 
>>global market. Take away that instant communication
>
> The global market is actually an advantage for piracy. I can think of five
> ports off the top of my head where the authorities are either for rent or
> dont care (Bombay, Karachi, Jakarta, Shanghai and Mombassa).

Which is a good enough example of the existence of "crooked" ports.
The equivalent in Traveller would make piracy a *lot* easier.
Especially if they have one feature in common with most of those modern
ports. Volume of traffic. With a lot of traffic through the port, the
port officials can recognize the transponder squawk they issued to a
ship whose bribes are up to date, and direct it to some portion of the
port where it won't be noticed by snoppy visitors, and at the same time
manage to have an unfortunate "glitch" in the official sensor records.

BTW, some of this sort of thing is cultural. We aren't used to a
culture where accepting money to do your job (or to not do it) is
*expected*. So in that sort of culture, you can't really call the
officials "crooked". They're just following a different set of rules.
The main thing the pirate has to understand is that he needs to keep
his payments up to date, and that he's got to do his part to keep
things denyable. 

>>The reason the pirates use small boats in general is their 
>>speed, as bigger boats  aren't sufficiently faster than the 
>>targets to reliably catch them.

This is due to the physics of drag. For vessels too big to "plane" any
of the hull, drag goes *down* as the hull gets longer. Thus a bigger
ship can go faster than a smaller one for the same power/weight ratio. 

>>Perhaps a 400t freighter with a load of fighters would be a better
>>pirate vessel than a 400t corsair? (at least it would be better at
>>pretending to be a merchant :-)

See above. The physics involved in space are quite different than those
that apply to surface vessels. Fighter aren't *significantly* faster
than ships. If you can get a 6-g manuever drive in that pirate vessel,
it's just as "fast" as any fighter, and can both absorb more damage and
dish out more.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 01:50:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Planetary Geology

In mail you write:

>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>>Subject: Re: Planetary Geology Question, and possible Piracy synthesis
>>
>>In mail you write:
>>
>>Check back in the archives. I posted some stuff about this only six
>>months or so back. 
>
> Yeah, I think it was what I was remembering.
>
>>Here's the short version. 
>>
>>So ice is valuable, and CHON is *very* valuable. Stony material is
>>so/so. Nickel iron is ok if you want them, or you want to build an
>>armored base.
>
> How valuable ? Which side of KCr 1000 per displacement ton ?

How valuable depends on what it'd cost you to ship in the hydrogen,
carbon, oxygen, and nitrogen from someplace else. That's the upper
limit on what a miner could get for it.

In a system with no habitable planets the ice and CHON would be very
valuable, as they'd be the *only* local source of life support
chemicals. In a system with an Earthlike planet, their value wouldf
depend entirely on the relative costs of shipping.

>>Mind you, there are lots of *other* things in both stony and
>>nickel-iron bodies. Stony is *mostly* silicon, aluminum, magnesium,
>>titanium and oxygen. Just like the earth's crust. But there are
>>reasonable amounts of other stuff in there. 
>
> Stupid question time. I take it the amount of 'other stuff' will vary from
> asteroid to asteroid, and not be constant across a system ?

In the original planitesmals, it'd be very constant. And when they
differentiate, it'd vary pretty uniformly with depth. But not by very
much. 

The closer to the star you get, the lower in low melting point and low
boiling point elements things will get (ie even components of "stony"
meteors can get "baked out" if you get in close enough to the star).

But for most practical purposes, I'd treat the stony material as being
uniform across the system. Use the average composition of the earth's
crust (given in many books) as the composition of the stone. And yes,
that means that they are essentially "country rock".

>>But for both Stony and nickel-iron you are going to have to "refine"
>>the asteroid to get the other stuff. Because the processes that
>>concentrate them on earth just won't be there. On the other hand,
>>consider that 1 part per *billion* in a cubic kilometer of rock gives
>>you a one meter cube. And I don't know about you, but I'd like a cubic
>>meter of gold, platinum, silver, etc just fine. :-)
>
> The problem is how hard is that cubic meter to get out ...
>
>>Trouble is, with fusion power, it's not that hard to just process an
>>entire asteroid into it's component elements. And while volcanic
>>activity can create seams of minerals, it's *water* plus volcanic
>>activity that does so here on earth. 
>
> *shhhhhhh* If we allow fusion power plants to power dirty great big mass
> spectrometers, then mined resources of all sorts get to become a non-issue,
> and we lose all those mining colonies. I say keep the moon-mining colonies,
> especially in all those yukky atmosphere, high volcanic activity moons *grin*

Well, with the nickel-iron asteroids, if you have enough water and
power available you could electrolyticly refine the metals. You'd get
iron or nickel (I forget which) on the first pass, and a "sludge"
consisting of all the other metals as compounds. Reduce that (applying
heat and recyclable chemicals will work), and you get the other main
metal. 

Now that you've got the nickel and iron out, the other metals will be
more interesting, but you can still use pretty much the same cycle. We
don't do it this way on earth, both because we don't have large slabs
of nickel-iron to work on, and because we have other ways of producing
the metals so we don't (usually) bother reclaiming the metals in iron
mill slag.

I think stony asteroids (again in a system with no earth-like planet)
could be processed to seperate the major oxides (silica, alumina,
magnesia, and titania) and the latter three processed to extract the
metals. The silica could be used as is for producing various types of
"glass". I've mentioned before that I expect a light metal alloy (AL,
Mg, Ti or some combination) "sandwich" filled with "foamed" glass to be
the space colony equivalent of a sheet of plywood. 

Note that using current methods, the seperation of the oxides will
require large amounts of water. It can (and will!) be recycled, but you
still need a *lot* of it.

Oh yeah, this also will produce a fair amount of "sludge" that will
essentially be everything in the stony material that *wasn't* the 4
oxides listed above. And the processing will likely liberate all the
non-metals early on. At least the ones present. Oxygen will replace
phosporus, sulfur, chlorine, bromine and iodine. It won't replace
fluorine, but there won't be a lot of that, and it can be extracted by
giving a better metal for it to latch onto. So pretty much everything
will be oxides after the first stage or two of processing. We've got
means of seperating out such a mishmash, we rarely use them outside the
lab. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 02:29:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: radiator materials

Not having my "rubber bible" (CRC Handbook of Physics and Chemistry)
available, I'm having to work from a period chart, and can only give
figures for elements.

Here are the elements in decreasing order of melting point in deg C:

3727	Carbon
3410	Tungsten
3180	Rhenium (you can't afford it!)
3000	Osmium
2996	Tantalum
2610	Molybdenum
2500	Ruthenium
2468	Niobium
2454	Iridium
2222	Hafnium
2140	Technetium (radioactive)
2030?	Boron
1966	Rhodium
1900	Vanadium
1875	Chromium
1852	Zirconium
1769	Platinum
1750	Thorium
1668	Titanium
1652	Lutetium
1552	Palladium
1545	Thulium
1539	Scandium
1536	Iron
1509	Yttrium
1497	Erbium
1495	Cobalt
1461	Holmium
1453	Nickel
1410	Silicon
1407	Dysprosium
1356	Terbium
1312	Gadolinium
1277	Beryllium
1245	Manganese
1083	Copper
1063	Gold
1050	Actinium
1027	Promethium
1024	Neodymium

Looks like we've got a lot of materials to use for even a 2000 degree
radiator. Though a thousand degree one looks like a better bet. And
even a 3000 degree unit isn't out of the question (note that carbon, as
in graphite, can handle that easily).

With a bit of thought, I realized that the working fluid would almost
certainly be a liquid metal, as these have decent heat capacities,
can't decompose, and can be driven through the system by pumps having
no moving parts (as is done in sodium cooled reactors now).

After poring over the melting and boiling points, I found that there
are two main candidates for the "working fluid" in the radiators.
Gallium and Tin. Both have boiling points above 2000 by a comfortable
margin, and melting points well below 1000 (Gallium melts at 29.6C!).
If you want to go to 3000, Cerium and lathanum are the only elements
with melting points below 1000 and boiling points above 3000. I can see
them being used in some military ships. There'd be quite an advantage
to being able to crank your radiators up that high.

Sodium (as is used in many nuclear reactors) boils at 892, so it's out
of the running except for really low temp radiators. It does melt at
97.8 though. It's also a major fire hazard around water, and chemical
hazard around people.

I expect most ships will use tin. It melts at 231.9C, and thus will
circulate ok even at *very* low power levels. Gallium would be even
better, but it's a lot scarcer (and thus, more expensive). But it would
seem almost ideal. It has a higher specific heat than tin, and could
actually be used in the *low* temp radiators for life support as well
as the high temp ones for the power plant. And it can be easily handled
as a liquid at only a few degrees above room temp (making it easy to
clean it out of piping. :-)

Still, tin looks like the all around best bet. I guess starships are in
no danger of running out of high quality solder. :-)

So, graphite radiators with liquid tin running through them at 1000
degrees nominal, with down to 300 and up to 2000 available. Seems like
a nice design once you add the heat pumps to pump the life system
waste heat uphill. :-)

Special military with liquid cerium or lathanum, still inside graphite.
I bet they'd go with lathanum. That way the radiators can double as
part of the jump grid, and they can use spare lathanum from stores to
refill the radiators *or* to patch the jump grid!

And the "deluxe" civilian setup using gallium.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 14:02:25 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Piracy [in Walter Smith's Traveller Universe]

Walter Smith writes:

>Just a little compilation of how Piracy and other things work(ed)
>In My Probably Heretical But The Players Enjoyed It Traveller Universe:

First of all, if you want pirates in YTU then bless you (not to imply
that you _need_ my blessing, but you have it). All comments to follow
apply only in connection with the OTU.

>"Pirate" encounters could actually be Pirates, Commerce Raiders,
>or StarMercs on local war contracts.

The pirates that appear as wandering monsters thanks to the encounter
tables are not commerce raiders or starmercs on local war contracts.
Such people would have the authority to prevent the PC's ship from (say)
landing on a blockaded planet, but they would not have the authority to
capture their ship. In fact, such ships would be more like patrol ships
than pirates.

>For purposes of this discussion, we'll limit "Pirate" to mean independent
>or small groups of ships acting illegally and taking ships as their\
>primary criminal activity.

Perfect. That's exactly the definition I use. 

>[Ship's crews can and will make it impossible to make their ship jump
unless the pirates are real wizzes at computer hacking].

Accepted as a working assumption.

>A variety of 400-ton range vessels are the more common pirate,
>usually mutinied patrol cruisers or starmerc commerce raiders that
>ran out of war or were otherwise cashiered
>
>[...]
>
>Note for the "must swim with the fishes" people out there: the
>average pirate ship will _never_ call at a starport that has any kind
>of legal controls or Imperial presence. It will never, except at long ranges
>or in the most cursory manner, be able to play the role of honest
>merchant - and it works within these limitations.

>Pirates make arrangements with criminal groups or even individual
>smugglers to buy cargos they have stolen. They keep what they
>need for their jury-rigged ship repairs, and hope for the big haul - 
>except that the mind-set that leads someone into being a pirate
>often has the big haul make them overconfident, so they go for
>a bigger one.
> 
>A ship hunted by a pirate can expect the following to happen:
> 
>1) Some deception may occur. A pirate may pretend to be a customs or
>patrol vessel - a deception that will not last long, but may allow the
>first stages of an intercept to occur.

Ummm... unless the system has real customs or patrol vessels of its own,
that ploy won't last a second. And unlike 20th Century Chinese coast
guards, Traveller patrol vessels are in 'line of sight' (actually, line of
radio messages) anywhere in the system.

>Stealth capabilites, for those
>pirates lucky enough to have them, are made use of.

Stealth capablilites are not Traveller technology (unfortunately; I'd like
to have it, but those nit-picky "don't-break-the-laws-of-physics" people
won't let me).
 
>2) Calling for help will probably do little good, unless they can delay
>the pirate through unexpected thrust capabilities or good battle
>tactics/weaponry - many of which will make the pirate give up anyway,
>unless desperation or prospect of an unusually great haul perks up the
>pirate's courage. The target was detected by the pirate too far from help,
>either due to a minor misjump outside the usual traffic lanes

That has been debated at length. If the planet has a patrol vessel, the
pirate can't lurk anywhere close to where ships usually jump in because
you can't hide in space. Also, a good place for a patrol vessel to patrol
is close to where ships are expected to appear. But if the pirate is
lurking in a place so far away from the usual emergence point that the patrol
ship don't want to chase him down (it could be a ploy to lure him away from
his beat, after all), then the odds against a misjump placing the arriving
ship closer to the pirate than to the patrol vessel are litterally
astronomically (First a ship has to misjump. Then it has to arrive in a
relatively small slice of space).

>or because the target is in a place where patrols don't go.

Right. But those places tend to be places where merchant ships are few and
far between.

>Or perhaps something has already happened to the local patrol ship - if the
>planet Pinata only has two Patrol Ships, and five or six pirates club
>together to bushwhack the patrol, they'll have free rein of the system
>(away from whatever planetary defenses there might be) for weeks.

True, but where did you get your 5 compatriots from (by Traveller encounter
tables pirates are usually solitary, and by your assumptions they will be
rare (How often does a patrol ship mutiny?)). I suppose that if you are a
star-merc without a war, there could very well be other idle star-mercs too,
but still...

Secondly, if you _do_ get six pirates together, you have to catch six times
as many ships to make ends meet. But if the system have enough traffic to
net you enough ships in a forthnight to support six ships for several
months, wouldn't it have more than two patrol ships?

Thirdly, going up against patrol ships is a risky business. At three to
one odds there a chance that they will run from you, but military pride
is a tricky thing. There's always the chance that they will stay and
fight. You'd win, but the repair bills will cost you millions of credits.
 
>3) The pirate will intercept.
>
>[...]
>
>4) The merchant will be boarded.

I don't mind stipulating that if you have an armed, high G maneuver ship
and there are no patrol vessels in the system, any arriving merchant will
be easy prey.

>5) The merchant will be looted.

Right. If they are just capturing targets at random (and they are; otherwise
they wouldn't be trying to capture the PC's ship), the cargo will be worth
an average of Cr5,000/dT.

>6) The Pirates will go their merry way. 

OK. They jump to their hideout where they sell their loot to a legitimate
merchant with questionable morals. How big a percentage of the value does
he pay? Not only does he have to pay for two jumps  --  out to the secret
rendevouz and back again  --  but he is also in the catbird seat as far
as the pirates are concerned. Remember, they can't visit legitimate ports.
It's a buyer's market.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 14:25:39 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Traveller: World economics

Robert Eaglestone writes:

>Classic Traveller fixes average income at Cr10,000 per year,
>in local currency.

Not explicitly. Working backwards from the costs of long term subsistence
I reached an average of Cr10,000 (Cr9,600 actually, but I decided to round
up). I was very happy when that figure was included in _Pocket empires_,
but I wonder if future Traveller rules writers will actually pay any
attention to it. Ah well, time will tell. However, _Striker_ gave an
average income that depended on TL. I think TL 9 had an average of
Cr10,000, with higher TL going up Cr2000 per level and lower going down
by Cr1000 per level, but I may be misremembering.

>Also, the value of the local credit is
>based on the starport quality and the world TL.

In CT, yes. _Pocket Empires_ had a system that I like much better (except
that I'd prefer a different way to apply the TL factor). More versatile.
But a tad more complicated, I have to admit.

>But how do you determine how many people can afford to spend
>money on spaceflight?  Bell curves?  Estimates?

I posted this only a few months ago, so apologies to everyone who has
seen it before. It is just my take on the subject.


ESTIMATING STARSHIP PASSENGER TRAFFIC

The following calculations are based on the assumption that it is possible to
get a mid passage on a regular passenger starship for Crimp5,000. This is a
price I've arrived at after considerable calculations as a reasonable one for
a jump-1 fare (A jump-2 fare should cost 6,500, a jump-3 9,000, and a jump-4
13,500). They are also based on the assumption that the average yearly income
for a citizen is Cr10,000 (after taxes).

A round trip starship ticket costs Cr10,000, about a full year's income. At
that cost most people will at most make one off-world trip in a lifetime.
Propably a good part will not even do that. Just how many will depend, to a
large extent, on the cultural attitude to travel. I suggest that the number of
people per year that takes an off-world trip from a planet should be set to 1D
time 0.1% of the total population. In other words, if the die roll is 3, each
year 0.3% of the population takes an offworld trip. The die roll and the per-
centage was chosen with no real reason except that it sounds reasonable to me.

Example: A planet with a population of 30 million people. Die roll of 4. Each
year 4 * 0.001 * 30,000,000 = 120,000 people takes a trip. 

The less the local currency is worth, the less people can afford a starship
trip. So multiply the number above with the value of the local credit.

Example: Local credit is worth 0.6 Crimp. The number of passengers per year
in the example above would become 0.6 * 120,000 = 72,000.

Now it is time for a reality check. Ordinarily one would expect Class A star-
ports to have lots of traffic and Class E starports to have very little. To
some extent this has already been accounted for, since starport type usually
affects the value of the local currency, but there will still be cases where
the number of passengers and the starport class does not fit well together.
You will have to either a) adjust the starport class to the traffic, b) adjust
the traffic to the starport class, or c) find some creative explanation.

To figure out where the passengers go, find the starport type for the world and
for each of its neighbors. Consult the jump routes table. Four columns are
provided, corresponding to jump distances one through four. For each neighbor
determine the distance between the two worlds, and their starports. At the
intersection of the distance column and the world pair row, a number is stated.
If the one die roll is less than or equal to the number, a regular passenger
route between the two worlds exist. Note down the number you rolled; this
indicates the relative size of the route. (For those who recognize the table
from CT's Book 3, this is the reason for reversing the figures; the more
likely a connection, the bigger its relative size _may_ be).

Example: Checking for a route between two Class A starports two parsecs from
each other a 4 is rolled; there is a route between the two ports with a
relative size of 4. Checking for one between two Class C starports two
parsecs from each other another 4 is rolled; there is no regular route
between the two ports.

JUMP ROUTES

World	---------Jump Distance---------
pair	Jump-1	Jump-2	Jump-3	Jump-4
A-A	    6 	    5	    3       2
A-B	    6	    4	    3	    2
A-C	    6	    3	    1	    -
A-D	    6	    2	    -	    -
A-E	    5	    -	    -	    -
B-B	    6	    4	    3	    1
B-C	    5	    3	    1	    -
B-D	    4	    1	    -	    -
B-E	    3	    -	    -	    -
C-C	    4	    1	    -	    -
C-D	    3	    -	    -	    -
C-E	    3	    -	    -	    -
D-D	    3	    -	    -	    -
D-E	    2	    -	    -	    -
E-E	    1	    -	    -	    -

Before going on, reality check the figures again. If you get an unlikely
result, like a route sending hundreds of thousand of passengers to a
neighboring low-tech, low-population world, or a high-tech, high-population
world with a Class E starport generating hundreds of thousands of passengers
with no place to go, you should first try to think up an explanation for the
unlikely result (passengers to a low-tech planet may for instance be
tourists); but if you can't come up with a good explanation then you should
change something to eliminate the oddity.

Sum up the sizes of all the routes from the world and divide the total number
of passengers by it; the result is the basic number of passengers for a size 1
route. For each route multiply its size with the basic amount. This is the
final number of passengers if it is a jump-1 route. For a jump-2 route divide
the result by 1.3; for a jump-3 route divide by 1.8; and for a jump-4 route
divide by 2.7 (This reflects the greater cost of higher jump travel).

Example: Regina in 1117 has a population of 700 million people and its credit
is worth 0.85 Crimp (Imperial credit). If the die roll was 3, Regina would
turn out to have 3*700,000,000*0.85/1,000=1,785,000 locals as outgoing
passengers per year (and the same number of people returning). Regina is
within jump-1 of Ruie (starport type C), Jenghe (C), and Hefry (C), within
jump-2 of Forboldn (E), Yori (B), Extolay (B), Dinom (D) Dinomn (B),
Wypoc (C), and Djinni (X), within jump-3 of Knorbes (D), Roup (B),
Phlume (C), and Rech (D), and within jump-4 of Grant (X), Whanga (E),
Wochiers (E), Algine (X), Yurst (E), 871-438 (E), Tionale (C), and
KKirka (C). Rolling a die for each potential route we get the following
routes (and relative sizes): Ruie (4), Jenghe (2), Hefry (3), Yori (3),
Dinomn (2), and Roup (1). Reality-checking we lower the route to Ruie to 1
(it's outside Imperial borders and has an Amber Zone rating) and get a sum
total of 12. 1,785,000 divided by 12 gives a basic number of 148,750 (Which
must be adjusted for distance).


Neighbor     Die roll  Route   Size	*148,750	Adjusted

Ruie		4	Yes	1	 148,750	148,750
Jenghe		2	Yes	2	 297,500	297,500
Hefry		3	Yes	3	 446,250	446,250

Forboldn	-	No	0	       0 
Yori		3	Yes	3	 446,250	343,270
Extolay		6	No	0	       0
Dinom		5	No 	0	       0
Dinomn		2	Yes	2	 297,500	228,850
Wypoc		6	No	0	       0
Djinni		-	No	0	       0

Knorbes		-	No	0	       0
Roup		1	Yes	1	 148,750	 82,640
Phlume		5	No	0	       0
Rech		-	No	0	       0

(All the rest)	-	No	0	       0


You now have the number of people going FROM the world to neighboring worlds
(and back) each year. But to determine the amount of passenger traffic a
system has one must remember to include all the people from neighboring
worlds that goes TO that system.

Example: The amount of passenger traffic between Regina and Roup is 82,640
Reginans PLUS an as yet undetermined number of Roupians.

Once you have the number of passengers you can decide the number of ships it
will take to carry them. There are two kinds of regular passenger liners. The
most usual one goes from the surface of one world to the surface of the other
world. Since they don't have to scrounge around for passengers the way tramp
ships do, they average one jump every 10 days or 35 jumps per year or 17.5
round trips per year. Each ship can therefore carry 17.5 times its passenger
capacity each year if it is always completely full. But since most ships
average 90% full each trip, you have to multiply by 0.9.

Example: A Type R Subsidized Liner carries 30 passengers. Such a ship will
carry 30*17.5*0.9=472.5 passengers per year. If the passenger traffic between
Regina and Roup were, say, 150,000, you could decide to have 150,000/472.5=
317 Type R liners handling it (More likely you'd want some larger ships for a
route with that many passengers).

The second type of regular passenger liners are those that jump back and forth
between the jump limits of the two worlds (passengers travel to and from the
surface in passenger shuttles). Such a ship can manage a slightly faster turn-
around, doing a jump in 9 days on the average or 20 round trips per year.
However such ships can afford about 30% lower prices, so strictly speaking
you should multiply the passenger stream by 1.4 on such routes. Such ships are
found only on routes where both systems have space stations at the jump limit,
which usually means high-tech worlds with large populations and Class A or B
starports.

Example: A route between two high-tech worlds with Class A starports has been
calculated to have 1,000,000 passengers. Deciding that the traffic is from
jump limit to jump limit, the number is increased to 1,400,000.


LONG-DISTANCE TRAVEL AND OTHER COMPLICATIONS

This system assumes that almost all passenger traffic will consist of people
jumping to a neighboring system and returning some time later. It does not
account for people going farther afield. The number of Reginans, for example,
who can afford to go to Jewell or Aramis or Rhylanor is small, but there are
some who can. Nor does it account for one-way traffic (emigrants).

About 1% of all passengers embark on longer trips. The most usual ships to
cater to this traffic are ships like the Tukera Longliner with an average
passenger capacity around 40.

The best way to establish the number of long-distance passenger ships in a
sector is to calculate the number of passengers from high-population planets
in the sector (ignoring the effect of low- and medium-population planets).
Take 1% of this and divide by 40 to get the number.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 14:37:46 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Pirate maintenance

Tommy Grav writes:

>But the annual maintenance is to insure that the ship is in *good* working
>order. Many piratvessels will of course not be in this state as the annual
>maintanence is skipped over and over again. The vessels will IMO be
>patchworks of stolen and cheap bought equipment. Give the pirates a base
>and time any good engineer could do most annual maintance *if needed*. It
>will not be state of the art work, but it will propably work at least.    

The annual maintenance is to ensure that the jump drive works properly.
Anything else is secondary (well, except the life support system... ;-).
Have a look at the jump rules of any version of the Traveller rules. A
pirate that dose not have his annual maintenance will eliminate himself
as a problem within a few months of missing his annual maintenance. 

>To recap wath you said of the pirates on wood sail ships. They could
>repair hull damage with wood and nails, but this work was propably not as
>good as it would be if the damage was repaired at a shipyard in England.
>This is the same, but I guess it comes down to how you see the ships built
>IYTU (or me IMTU :-)

What you do IYTU is your business. What I do IMTU is mine. Discussing the
logic of the rules don't give much meaning unless we are discussing the
same rules. I'm not discussing the rules of YTU or of MTU but of TOTU (The
Official Traveller Universe). What are you discussing?
  

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "Yo-ho-ho and a bottle of oxygen."
			- traditional Traveller Pirate song

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 14:46:38 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Piracy

Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>>From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>

>>In the Real world [...] there was a ship hijacked and sailed to a Chinese
>>port...
> 
>This is what I'd call 'State sponsored piracy' - the local State, really
>doesnt give a damn and is in effect a freeport. If the State did give a
>damn, then the first failed attempt to use forged papers would have got you
>arrested and in the slammer awaiting trial.
> 
>>Another problem is ships purporting to be chinese patrol  boats that order
>>shipping to port to be inspected, and unload all the cargo during
>>inspection, and take it all away. [...] It's got so bad the Chinese Govt
>>issued an official statement that those patrol boats aren't theirs.
> 
>Again, this requires passive State support. But it's a neat scam.

One thing to keep firmly in mind before you draw too many analogies
between conditions off the Chinese coast and conditions around most
Imperial planets is that China don't have to worry about an Imperial
task force showing up and treating them the way they treated Tarkine
and that planet in Aramis subsector that got caught supporting or at
least condoning piracy (Move in, replace the government, put in a base).
Another is that the Chinese coast is a lot harder to patrol with wet
navy ships than the space around a planet is to patrol with spaceships.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #545
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Tuesday, June 2 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 546



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Vector Movement
Re: Piracy
Re: Piracy
Re: Piracy now and in the Traveller universe
Re: Pirate Maintenance
RE: "Letter of Marque" - Order Now!
Re: Turnlengths & physics (was Re: Coordinated Jumps)
Re: Blowing up Ships
Re: Pirate maintenance
Re: Bank robbery
RE: Rome again?
Re: Radiator Materials
New Computerized Rifle
The Imperial Nobility (was Imperial Navy taskings)
Re: Radiator Materials
OT: 'High Crusade' movie
Re: Piracy now and in the Traveller universe
Re: Subs & Sandwiches

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 14:55:40 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Vector Movement

From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
>formula 1: Distance covered at constant thrust over given time
 >d= 0.5 * A * T

It should be d= 0.5 * A * T * T

Carlos Alos-Ferrer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 15:04:27 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Piracy

Walter G. Smith erites:

>I keep wondering why people expect criminals to balance books,
>pay proper maintenance and otherwise act like honest businessmen.

It depends to some extent on what assumptions you make. In some cases
(see below for one) it is strongly implied. In others (pirates are
mutineers with a ship they can't sell), you get other restraints
that complicate their lives (they can't visit most starports and 
have to deal with middlemen who will want a cut for themselves).
In all cases they have to eat and breathe.

>So they can't create a conventional revenue stream - neither are they
>paying taxes or doing a lot of things as they are expected to.
>You LS costs are going to be pretty low when you're stealing all the
>things that make it possible. 

This assumes that they can capture ships often enough to steal enough
of all the things that make it possible.
 
>As for "swimming with the fishes" - the original CT Corsair ship
>(400 dtn, possibly the _Nishemani_ class as per DGP's SOM)
>has fake modules, extensible fins, variable radio emissions and
>variable transponders - obviously some deception effort was made.

This ship is specifically designed for one thing only: piracy. Who
built it? Don't you think he expected to be paid for it? This implies
that there are ways of making a living as a pirate while paying off
the loan on this sucker (or, more likely, writing off a lump sum big
enough to pay for the ship outright). Because if the builder didn't
have a market for this ship. why did he build it in the first place?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 15:34:56 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Piracy

On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
> 
> Not so minor detail. Piracy has been a capital crime as long as law has
> existed. I doubt that it'll quit being one in the future. So there
> *isn't* any extra risk in offing the crew. 

But this again depends on the reason that a pirate went pirate. Is doing
it because the Imperium killd his wife, made his firm go bankrupt. Is he
in it for the money, the thrill. Does he want to see if he can pull it
off, even though everybody says he can't :-) For each pirate out there
(and IMHO it won't be wandering monster amounts, but some still) there
will be a different set of motivations for him doing it. And killing crews
might easily go against this motivation.

> This gets *much* harder when you start dealing with large vessels that
> are *not* produced in the multiple millions per model. The parts are
> both more identifiable, and harder to get rid of because they are
> "model specific".

But how many 20-40 years ships will still be using the original equipment.
Some part has been changed here, some there. Most ships will be patchworks
of repaired parts from dozen of yards and maintances shops. And add to
this the number off ships that is going to be refitted during their
lifetime, you actually have ships registered as free traders but look
nothing like it.

> And then they ask why all the damage is on the *bow* of the ship rather
> than the stern. (ie why was he heading *towards* the pirate, rather
> than running away :-)

We'll since running straight from an opponent or head straight for it is
the two dumbest moves in space damage is going to be more evenly spaced
out along the hull as the ships evade to increase their propabilitycone
for their future position.

> Pretty much the whole port *admin* structure, as any port is going to
> check transponder ID, and then check ships "papers" when it
> docks/lands. 
> 
> After all, he can't afford to get repairs all *that* far from his area
> of operation. So eventually news of a pirate that matches his ship's
> description is going to be common knowledge at the port he's getting
> repaired at. And his damage is going to match the reports. So either
> folks will get suspicious leading to problems, or they have to know
> what he's up to from the start.

We'll he can't operate other places than he can operate, and since a
pirate has to do something with his lote, he definitivly needs someplace
that dosn't really care what he does, the question is how many places are
there in known space that has this attiutude, and this is again a result
of how you view the Imperium. Where Steven Hudson views it as a nation
with a strong need for internal security, I see it as a loose entity of
worlds, where the individual worlds are more interested in their own
security than that of their neighbours. "There was another pirate attack
on a vessel in the system three parsec rimwards. Blahh, thats just what
they deserve. They should learn from us, we never had that problem
here"-attitude. 

> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 15:59:11 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Piracy now and in the Traveller universe

Thom Harris writes:

>Here ya go:
> 
>http://www.vantage-security.com/piracya.htm  - This is a company
>specializing in security.

OK, I've read the main page in full and browsed half a dozen of the
individual stories.

>http://www.marinewatch.com/piracy.html - This is just a short article/story.

My system couldn't find this one.

>http://www.stokesworld.com/potshots/ps11article3.html - Another short
>article/story.

I read it.

As far as I can find, all the instances given are of people using speed boats
and hand-carried weapons or similar low investment equipment (one article
mentioned trucks and .45 handguns ;-). If there is any one of them that
mentions an armed ship being used, could you let me know the title of the
article?

>One argument that every one seems to be forgetting is that most pirates were
>running not on common sense but instead on their EGO and quite often pure
>ARROGANCE. So what might be unreasonable odds to you and I mean nothing to
>someone who takes up the trade of Piracy.  They honestly feel that they can
>get away with it until such time as they decide to quit.

First off, no matter how arrogant a pirate is, he still needs to eat and
breathe, and he still needs to have his ship maintained. Secondly, I'm
talking about pirates as they are protrayed in the Traveller rules and
adventures. You know, the people who have a whole career dedicated to
them.
 
>In some cases this might be a one time deal where they find out about an
>unusually valuable cargo

If they go for unusually valuable cargoes then they are not the same people
PCs encounter in remote star system, but leaving that aside, intercepting
unusually valuable cargoes have several problems associated: One is
intercepting it (how exactly do you propose to do that?); the other is
that unusually valuable cargoes are far more likely to go by unusually
armed ships or with a hired escort.

>...and other times they might go on for years before capture and/or death. 

Now, that's just what I don't believe they can. Even if they stole the
ship and can't sell it (by far the likeliest scenario, only in that case
we're certainly not talking about the canonical custom-built corsair),
they still have to eat, breathe, and maintain their ship.

>...I think we both believe that if they continue as pirates for very long
>they WILL be caught.  I never envisioned them doing it for 30 years (or
>more) myself.

But in the OTU some pirates do just that.

>  That brings us to their new career of prisoner!

Well, some OTU pirates do that too! ;-)

>Okay, I missed that part of it and I'm sorry.  But let us continue along the
>lines you suggest.  Setting up different Transponder responses is CT canon

Granted. The reference I'm thinking of implies that you can't just use any
old transponder code any time you felt like it (IIRC the PCs got a special
transponder with three distinct settings), but fake transponders do exist
and propably can't cost all that much.

>along with changing the physical look of the ship (see "Corsair" under
>ships). IIRC they also had a bay large enough to hold a 100 dton ship so
>that they could just take the whole thing in and jump out of system
>immediately.

This is a purpose-built ship with the implication that it was built to be
a corsair with the implication that you _can_ make a living and pay off a
starship loan while pirating ships. Heck, anyone buying a corsair is either
paying a lot of money up front or taking out a 40 year loan...

>So, they don't have to ditch their ship after all.  They can sell the
>entire captured ship for a fairly large sum of money even at a lower
>price for going thru a fence. 

Ah, just how big a percentage do you think they could get for a ship? That's
one of the crucial factors. A 400 T corsair costs, what, MCr200? That means
it has to capture at least MCr12.5 worth of ship per year just to cover the
investment. Add to that the running expenses and you wind up somewhere
above MCr15. A lot of things depends on assumptions. For example, how big a
cut does the crew expect? For another, can you buy a purpose-built pirate
ship on the same conditions that you can buy a merchant or will the bank
think there is a greater risk of the corsair being lost and demand a higher
rate of return? What assumptions would you think were reasonable?

>Why would there be a "determined" examination in every subsector?

Because if they are stealing whole ships then they are inflicting losses
that makes it worth while to expend a lot of man-hours to get the ship
back. Now, we agreed that you can get fake transponders. But do you also
think that a stolen ship can be disguised well enough to make it
impossible to identify again? 

>Weren't we just recently talking about the 100 d limit being set based
>on the largest gravity well in the system. Couldn't that put them far
>enough out system to be fairly tough to identify reasonably?

If there are no system defenses at all, yes. If there are even a few SDBs
then there will either be a designate jump-in area with a SDB in attention
or the pirate will have very bad odds on a ship just happening to jump in
close enough to intercept (we're talking about a shell several AUs in
radius, aren't we?)

>Do you believe that all SDB's, Navy ships, etc. are all so dilligent or
>could not be bribed a bit that one ship passing thru couldn't be a corsair?

No, but if I was a corsair paying off a patrol ship I'd be losing a lot of
sleep wondering if the bribee was honest (ie. would stay bought). After all,
the prize money on a MCr200 pirate ship must be quite a bit more than any
realistic bribe, wouldn't you say?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 10:18:05 -0400
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: Pirate Maintenance

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

Subject: Pirate maintenance

>Tommy Grav writes:

>> But the annual maintenance is to insure that the ship is in *good* 
>> working order. Many piratvessels will of course not be in this state 
>> as the annual maintanence is skipped over and over again. The vessels 
>> will IMO be patchworks of stolen and cheap bought equipment. Give the 
>> pirates a base and time any good engineer could do most annual 
>> maintance *if needed*. It will not be state of the art work, but it 
>> will propably work at least.    

> The annual maintenance is to ensure that the jump drive works 
> properly.  Anything else is secondary (well, except the life support 
> system... ;-).  Have a look at the jump rules of any version of the 
> Traveller rules. A pirate that does not have his annual maintenance 
> will eliminate himself as a problem within a few months of missing his 
> annual maintenance. 

No Hans, I disagree.  A pirate that does not have his annual maintenance
will just move his operations elsewhere as a result of the misjump that
precipitates him out somewhere near a 100-diameter limit where he is
unknown, and he can then do his maintenance at the local starport!  :-) 

What a great system!  Be a pirate until misjump, then you know its time
to do maintenance!  And the locals would just know what you told them...
"under attack by pirates, made a jump to get away, but was inside the
100-diameter limit... etc, etc, etc.  Oh by the way, I need to do my
maintenance..."

Ducking for cover...
Greg Smith
;->

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 09:52:10 -0500 
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: RE: "Letter of Marque" - Order Now!

On Monday, 25 May 1998 23:00, Sanders [SMTP:timmon@primenet.com] wrote:
> I'm now taking orders for Andrew Keiths' "Letter of Marque".
> 
> Andrew Keith autographed copies:
> North America - $18.00
> Orders outside North America are $19.00 
> (I expect to ship autographed orders no later than June 20th.)

Count my in for one of these.  Payment to follow shortly.

Thanks!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 17:18:10 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Turnlengths & physics (was Re: Coordinated Jumps)

>For those of us who don't read Swedish, could you be a bit more
>specific?
>
>I tried to find it and got lost. I'm using Lynx, a text-mode browser
>which doesn't help.
>


Sorry, the download page is at

http://www.aniware.se/ANIWARE/engpages/download.html


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 17:21:53 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Blowing up Ships

>1) turn a bulkhead porous to H2 via a slow acting reaction (ie,
>non-explosive) into a compartment with an electrical short.

Hydrogen + O2 explosions are pretty weak compared to the normal ABSURD
armour on most Traveller ships including civilian.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 17:21:01 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Pirate maintenance

On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> Tommy Grav writes:
> 
> >But the annual maintenance is to insure that the ship is in *good* working
> >order. Many piratvessels will of course not be in this state as the annual
> >maintanence is skipped over and over again. The vessels will IMO be
> >patchworks of stolen and cheap bought equipment. Give the pirates a base
> >and time any good engineer could do most annual maintance *if needed*. It
> >will not be state of the art work, but it will propably work at least.    
> 
> The annual maintenance is to ensure that the jump drive works properly.
> Anything else is secondary (well, except the life support system... ;-).
> Have a look at the jump rules of any version of the Traveller rules. A
> pirate that dose not have his annual maintenance will eliminate himself
> as a problem within a few months of missing his annual maintenance. 

This is really dependent on which set of rules you use :-) Take TNE and
miss your maintance and it will effect about everything. But lets look at
what your saying in view of the T4 rules. Read the rules and I agree.
Maintance has no other *rule* effect than on jump drives. But just as
piracy is perhaps (at least in your eyes) silly with the rules as is, this
is also silly if used as is. Although many like to beleave that the OTU is
a consistant piece of work, it is far from that. This means that one has
choose something that has to be changed to get consitancy. While your
saying stomp the pirates, I say loosen the grip the Imperium has on things
to allow for some pirate activities. 

> 
> >To recap wath you said of the pirates on wood sail ships. They could
> >repair hull damage with wood and nails, but this work was propably not as
> >good as it would be if the damage was repaired at a shipyard in England.
> >This is the same, but I guess it comes down to how you see the ships built
> >IYTU (or me IMTU :-)
> 
> What you do IYTU is your business. What I do IMTU is mine. Discussing the
> logic of the rules don't give much meaning unless we are discussing the
> same rules. I'm not discussing the rules of YTU or of MTU but of TOTU (The
> Official Traveller Universe). What are you discussing?

Hey, cool down a bit, will you. I'm discussing the OTU also, but we might
view the rules somewhat differently. You see, I see the rules as
pertaining to effect the players and their actions, not the way the
universe works. The universe is goverened by the background. Misjump is
uncommon for regulare ships, pirates are out there, both require
maintance. One can get it, the other can't. OK, the maintance rule in the
book obviusly can't apply to both cases. It's a thumb rule for ease of
play when the players own a ship. Who wants to have rigours bookkeeping of
every filter, drive, part. Nobody, so we make a general rule to guide the
events. 

 
>       Hans Rancke

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 17:31:27 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Bank robbery

>D.B. Cooper didn't rob a bank. He hijacked a plane and demanded the
>money. He's something of a local legend. Alas, they *did* find portions
>of a few bills about 10 years back. They found them in a spottwhere
>dredging "spoil" had been dumped recently. This tends to confirm the
>theory that he came down in the middle of the Columbia river.
>
>Other likely theories are that he came down in heavy woods and got hung
>up in a tree and couldn't get down, or broke a leg or to in the
>process. Given that we've had folks stumble over 20 and 40 year oild
>plane wrecks in the woods, it's not that unlikely that his corpse was
>up in a tree till it fell apart. And the money is lining a rodent den
>somewhere.

If the cops decide that any bankrobber not found is dead then I can
understand why people think that no bankrobbery has suceeded lately. I'd
say that unless you caught the guy or found his body he should be
considered a success.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 08:40:53 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Rome again?

>Ah well. Say "La Guerre." As long as you don't perpetuate any old
>cliches...(if you talk about lead pipes causing the fall of the 
>Empire I will scream).
>
>Loren ("La Guerre") Wiseman
>

I thought it was radon . . .   :)


Brian

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 08:43:28 -0700
From: Sean Bayan Schoonmaker <schoon@aimnet.com>
Subject: Re: Radiator Materials

>Here are the elements in decreasing order of melting point in deg C:
>
>3727	Carbon
>3410	Tungsten

[mass snippage]

Just so long as you keep in mind that melting points and ability to diffuse
(radiate) heat are two different birds.


Schoon

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:02:43 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: New Computerized Rifle

Listen up, all you weapons gearheads. Something new is coming
down the pipe. And what's kinda neat is the thing looks like one
of the laser rifles straight out of 2300AD.

- -- The following was taken from the Dallas Morning News site today. --

Alliant Techsystems team to develop new US individual weapon 

A US/European team led by Defence Systems Group has been selected to
develop the Objective Individual Combat Weapon (OICW), the US military's
next-generation individual weapon. The OICW will replace the M16 rifle
and M203 grenade launcher used by US Forces.

The Alliant team (Alliant Techsystems, Contraves Brashear Systems, Inc.,
Heckler and Koch and Dynamit Nobel) is one of two industry groups that
have been competing on the OICW Advanced Technology Demonstration
programme, which is managed by the Joint Service Small Arms Programme
Office. Key system capabilities were defined as: a 500 percent increase
in probability of incapacitation; a capability to defeat targets in
defilade; an effective range to 1,000 meters; day/night fire control; a
wireless/weapon interface; substantial weight reduction; weapon recoil
mitigation and ergonomic design

Key system features of the Alliant team design include: 

A dual-munition capability combining NATO standard 5.56mm kinetic energy
ammunition for direct and suppressive fire and 20mm high-explosive (HE)
air-bursting ammunition for use against targets in defilade;

An over-under barrel design with a single trigger control for both
calibre's of ammunition; 

An electronic fire control system with a laser range finder that
pinpoints the precise target range at which the HE round will burst and
relays the information autonomously to the round's detonating fuse; 

Less weight than the fully equipped M16 Modular Weapon System;

A simple red dot day/night sighting system that uses uncooled infrared
sensor technology for night vision;

An ability to separate the 20mm and 5.56mm components of the weapon so
they can function as individual rifles depending on specific mission
requirements or the overall needs and budget resources of a particular
service.

The most recent phase of the programme culminated in January 1998 with
firing demonstrations of the complete prototype weapon system consisting
of rifle, fire control, and high-explosive air-burst ammunition.

Under an $8.5 million contract awarded for the next phase, Alliant will
build and deliver weapon systems and ammunition for testing and
evaluation by the joint services. The Engineering and Manufacturing
Development phase is planned to begin in 2000. In Service Date for the
first fully equipped unit is 2005.

Don L. Sticinski, group vice president, Defence Systems said , "The
Objective Individual Combat Weapon will revolutionise warfare much as
the introduction of the machine gun did early in this century,'' said
Sticinski. "Its unique capabilities will enable US combat troops to
virtually shoot around corners to defeat targets behind barriers or in
trenches.'' 

Alliant's OICW team consists of Contraves Brashear Systems, Inc.,
Pittsburgh, Pa. (fire control system); Heckler and Koch (HK) GmbH,
Oberndorf, Germany, and HK Inc., Sterling, Va. (weapon design and US
manufacture); and Dynamit Nobel AG, Cologne, Germany (5.56mm
ammunition product improvement and HE propulsion system). Alliant is the
prime contractor, with responsibility for total weapon system
integration and testing and HE ammunition.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 09:19:06 -0700
From: "Brannon \"Ben\" Boren" <brannonb@blarg.net>
Subject: The Imperial Nobility (was Imperial Navy taskings)

"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>   The money flowing through the nobilty will be a big budget.

Steven Hudson wrote:
>   Isn't the nobility self-supporting?


Good Question.

Is the British Monarchy self-supporting today?  I was under the impression
that the royalty (including far-reaching cousins, etc) received some sort
of government subsidy (that's a nice house the Queen lives in, eh?).  Can
someone who knows more about the subject contribute their insight on this
matter?


This is the way I see it in my Traveller Universe - Barons and above
receive some sort of Imperial stipend. After all, you can't have the rank
and file people seeing the Nobilty doing the same things as the commoners! 
The nobility have to "keep up appearances," even if it means supporting the
lazy royal cousins.

Ben

- --
Brannon "Ben" Boren
brannonb@blarg.net
http://www.mog.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 09:18:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Radiator Materials

Sean Bayan Schoonmaker writes:
> >Here are the elements in decreasing order of melting point in deg C:
> >
> >3727     Carbon
> >3410     Tungsten
> 
> [mass snippage]
> 
> Just so long as you keep in mind that melting points and ability to diffuse
> (radiate) heat are two different birds.

Not terribly -- blackbody radiation is more or less constant, only modified by
albedo within the relevant range.  Graphite would probably make an excellent
radiator material, it has good thermal conductivity along its planes and has a
reasonably low albedo.  Plus, if you really badly overheat, it has a quite high
heat of vaporization per unit weight and can dispose of quite a bit of heat
that way ;).  Unfortunately, it is also flammable, so don't use it in
atmosphere -- use high-temperature oxides instead, some of which also have
extremely high melting points.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 10:25:39 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: OT: 'High Crusade' movie

Meandering Blockbuster's aisles last night I came across the movie
(unfortunately rented out) 'High Crusade'. From the blurb on the back of
the box it seemd a relatively faithful rendition of the book. Anyone see
or hear of this yet?

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 11:56:15 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy now and in the Traveller universe

At 03:59 PM 6/2/98 +0200, Hans wrote:
>Thom Harris writes:
...
>>Why would there be a "determined" examination in every subsector?
>
>Because if they are stealing whole ships then they are inflicting losses
>that makes it worth while to expend a lot of man-hours to get the ship
>back. Now, we agreed that you can get fake transponders. But do you also
>think that a stolen ship can be disguised well enough to make it
>impossible to identify again? 

The first point is worth extra emphasis.  Go look at just how unbelievably
expensive Traveller starships are,compared to oceangoing vessels today.
For $50M today, I can lay my hands on a 1500TEU container ship, or at
least, I could were I COSCO.  (My rule of thumb is that 1Cr is roughly $3,
based on examination of cost of living, typical incomes, and cost of
various lifestyle goodies, so this massive real world vessel is on the
order 17MCr.)

In Traveller, we are looking at a vessel of roughly 4000 dt, and so on the
order 400MCr, give or take, and I would bet vastly more.  This means that
the ship is a substantial critter, and the loss of even one of these could
provide, in perpetuity, an investigation team of perhaps 200 at 5% interest
on the paid out money.  (1 senior investigator making the RW equivalent of
$100K, and needing perhaps $20K in support, so perhaps 40KCr per.  Assume
another 60 for three round trip jumps in a year, for 100KCr for each
investigator, plus a small staff.)

Clearly, they are not going to want to spend an amount equal to the cost of
the ship, but in the RW, insurance can come to 5% of the cost of the vessel
a year, and is often more.  Given that the insurance payments on even one
of these could support that staff, is it not reasonable that the actual
loss will cause a similar amount of scurrying?

So, the cost of the ship vs. the cargo goes way, way up.  Further, the
objects needed to threaten this ship are also pretty expensive.  Piracy
using a speedboat and a submachine gun is easy if the speedboat can get out
to international waters where it cannot be seen, and then return to the
shore.  I do not think anyone can argue that the 100d limit makes things a
bit different.  It seems likely that a pirate preying on civilian jump
ships would need a jump ship himself, else the "business as usual" idea
seems unlikely.

So, when looking at the Traveller piracy debate, do be aware that these
ships cost vastly, vastly more than equivalents do today, and that the
capital cost needed to become an effective pirate are also vastly higher.
Traveller piracy, if it exists, is far higher stakes than a couple folks in
a speedboat.

Scott

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 12:21:38 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Subs & Sandwiches

Tue, 02 Jun 1998 00:53:56 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>>   By definition, the vast majority of traffic (at least by tonnage)
>>> is to high-traffic systems whose mainworld security will be pirate
>>> proof.  Traffic being low at some time would require statistical
>>> anomalies that are only really possible at truly backwater worlds
>>> (not to say that it doesn't happen). This technique, _even in the
>>> absence of another traffic security system_, simply reduces the
>>> practical traffic horizon at which mainworld piracy can be believed
>>> that much lower.

>>Um no.  by definition "more" traffic has to be to high traffic
>>worlds.  But this doesn't even require that the majority
>>of traffic be to such systems (let along the "vast majority")

>  Umm, yes. Look at/imagine the volumes of trade between worlds, with
>some consideration to the economic predominance of the pop 9+ worlds.
>I happen to have some problems with those models, but those are the
>ones being kicked around.

OK, first, for the record, you aren't argueing "by definition"
here.  But to address the curent point.

>  According to canon, there are single planets out there whose economies
>exceed those of the bottom half or two-thirds (at least) of the 11,000
>worlds in the Imperium _combined_. High-pop planets, and any system in
>close proximity to them, will not be low or even medium traffic in any
>meaningful sense of the word.

Two point.  You are assming that numbers of ships is proportional
to the size of the economy, in high volume routes a lot of this
will be via larger ships, rather than more small ships.  Second,
being in close proximity to a high traffic world does _not_
automatically mean you will get more traffic.

>>Second of all, even from high traffic systems, certain
>>destinations can be uncommon and it is quite possible, even
>>along medium traffic routes, to have several ships
>>leave one day and then have none for the next week.

>  Statistically and economically unlikely. Some of the cargo
>volume on any but the least travelled routes will be regular
>runs, and several small companies running such could mean a
>departure every day or two.

Wether they traffic is regularly scheduled or not makes
not difference.  If a world doesn't actract shipping, it
won't attrack all kind's of shippings.  Noone is going
to set up regular runs to worlds that normally can't
attrack that traffic.

>>Debatable.  In CT you anounce you destination an then
>>passengers sign on, impling they wait for ships to show
>>up.  This is particularly likely to be true in systems
>>were ships are less common.  I don't see any reason why
>>you always have to wait for cargo, but even if you
>>did, you aren't sure when you will fill up so you will
>>_still_ have the situation of not wanting to hang around
>>waiting for another ship to leave first once you get
>>that last bit of cargo.  (What you are requiring is
>>that you have some time you need to wait after you have
>>gotten your last passenger and cargo before you leave).

>  Presumably in CT ships spent those extra days on the world doing
>something; it's reasonable to conclude that it was business related.

Sure, they are looking for the best cargo.  I see nothing that
says that they are waiting for another ship so they can send
a "we are coming" message.

>  While not stated clearly (IIRC) in the CT rules, presumably you can't
>just wait around until your ship fills up, as both passengers and freight
>have expected deadlines. If you know from arrival (or before) where you
>expect to go, you announce destination and departure time and start getting
>a load put together. If a ship is heading to your destination, you, a
>passenger, or someone acting on behalf of someone could send a message ahead.

_If_ a ship is heading your way.

>  Send a letter? Presumably the crew are too busy to read all of
>the several thousand (10,000's?) of messages they might carry as
>physical or electronic cargo?

Yeah, but a message from a competator to his next port of call
might just get special attention?

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #546
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Tuesday, June 2 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 547



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: 'High Crusade' movie
RE:Trav Characters Good or Evil?
CD-ROM?
piracy
Re: Blowing up Ships
Re: How Does Treece Maintain an SDB Fleet?
Re: Trav Characters Good or Evil?
Re: Piracy now and in the Traveller universe
Re: 'High Crusade' movie
OT: High crusade more info
Re: Rome again?
Ooop's forgot to add:
Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)
Re: Piracy
Re: Piracy in the Spinward Marches 
Re: Piracy
Re: Planetary Geology Question, and possible Piracy synthesis
Re: Piracy now and in the Traveller universe
Re: Star Luminosity Question
Re: Radiator Materials
Re: The Imperial Nobility (was Imperial Navy taskings)
Re: Piracy now and in the Traveller universe
Ship and trade economics (was something else being done to death

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 12:29:52 -0700
From: Dave Strebe <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: RE: 'High Crusade' movie

Are we talking 'Poul Anderson's High Crusade'?

Dave

- -----Original Message-----
From:	Bruce Johnson [SMTP:johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu]
Sent:	Tuesday, June 02, 1998 10:26 AM
To:	traveller
Subject:	OT: 'High Crusade' movie

Meandering Blockbuster's aisles last night I came across the movie
(unfortunately rented out) 'High Crusade'. From the blurb on the back of
the box it seemd a relatively faithful rendition of the book. Anyone see
or hear of this yet?

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 14:47:15 -0500
From: "Jeremy Reaban" <frankpul@stlnet.com>
Subject: RE:Trav Characters Good or Evil?

Well,  the thing about Traveller, is you can have lots of different types
of adventures. I think maybe early on there was an emphasis on
military/mercenary style adventures, but there's always been a lot of other
types - particularly exploration of ruins. 

Look at the first 3 adventures published. One's apparently about an insane
ship (don't have it, so I don't know), one is about ransacking a research
station (to rescue chirpers), and one is about exploring an Ancient's base.


The worst adventure I've seen is in one of the High Passages from FASA. The
characters are hired to wipe out an entire mining base on a planet, and
make it look like an 'accident'. But that's not typical.  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 14:33:21 -0500
From: eris@pen.net
Subject: CD-ROM?

Hi!

What ever became of the CD-ROM containing all the articles from TML,
X-Boat, etc that was being worked on?  I've been waiting to hear when
it was available, where to order it from, and what the final price was
going to be.

Did it come out and I missed it?  

Is it still being put together?

Did it, biting my tongue, die in pre-production?


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 15:56:03 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: piracy

Hans Rancke wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>As for "swimming with the fishes" - the original CT Corsair ship
>(400 dtn, possibly the _Nishemani_ class as per DGP's SOM)
>has fake modules, extensible fins, variable radio emissions and
>variable transponders - obviously some deception effort was made.

This ship is specifically designed for one thing only: piracy. Who
built it? Don't you think he expected to be paid for it? This implies
that there are ways of making a living as a pirate while paying off
the loan on this sucker (or, more likely, writing off a lump sum big
enough to pay for the ship outright). Because if the builder didn't
have a market for this ship. why did he build it in the first place?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
They mention that this ship is worth a lot more than you could sell
it for, due to uncertain paper trails and irregular origins. This ship
was probably _not_ a purpose-built pirate vessel, it's most likely
a stolen patrol or merchant craft that's been modified by a chain
of shady owners.

Looking at the profile, it might even be a standard 400-ton Patrol
Cruiser, with the 4G/Jump3 drives ripped out and replaced once
they failed due to poor maintenance and enough other patch and
weld work done that the ship isn't even streamlined anymore.
The jump fuel tanks were cut back and a cargo bay with 
clamshell doors was put together on the nose (the "capture bay").
These modifications were probably done at a variety of times, at
a variety of tech levels and with a variety of successes.

Once again: Pirates don't act like honest businessmen; they _can't_.
They don't place orders at law-abiding shipyards, they don't take out
loans to buy ships, they don't fly ships that can pass an Imperial
Safety Inspection. Their crews get paid depending on how well the
ship does on it's cruise, and a disgruntled crew that hasn't been paid
in a while may lead a Captain into deciding between a very dangerous
raid and a mutiny. Their retirement plan probably involves lot of exposure
to hard vacuum over a short time period, too.

I think the CT Corsair career should have had much more difficult
survival numbers, btw...

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 98 21:03 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Blowing up Ships

Moin Anders Backman,

> Hydrogen + O2 explosions are pretty weak compared to the normal ABSURD
> armour on most Traveller ships including civilian.

	the armor of civilian ships is not absurd. lets think about
	a TNE HEPLaR ship. Frome high orbit of a size 8 planet it needs
	about 1 hour and 20 minutes at one G. If my math is correct
	a miniastroid of one gram has an impact of around 1MJoule.
- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 98 21:32 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: How Does Treece Maintain an SDB Fleet?

	first of all: to anser the subject line :

	Trader's and Gunboat tell's that there is a SDB-Tender.

Moin Keven R. Pittsinger,

> High Guard Ed 2, p20, para 6:  A planetary navy may procure ships at any 
> shipyard within the borders of its subsector; alternatively, a planetary navy 
> may construct ships on its planet, using local resources, even if a shipyard 
> is not present.

	this is like the german nuke. we dont have one now, but in terms
	of war we have one within 30 minutes ;-)

	I would asume that such a condition is only valid on high tech
	systems. I wont thing that Beck's can build an own SDB on their
	class D, Tl-4 starport.

> Or a Marshall Plan deal.  Or the boats could be bought surplus after a 20-40 
> year history with another navy.  This would cut down on building costs.

	Dont mix history. The Marshall Plan was to refit germans industry
	using the Atlantik Verein. In 89 the goal of the Marshall Plan was
	solved.

	IMTU Beck's or other nonindutrial/lowtech worlds buy their SDB's
	from imperial surplus. The fleets are therefore part of the
	Collonial Fleet, subsidary from Imperium stock. So a Ron of 30
	years old battle riders, could be sold for cheap to serve for
	Beck's as monitors.  Beck's has "only" to pay the anual tender
	and overhowl. The battle riders are still part of the fleet, now
	degraded as Collonial because of subsidary contract. The SDB's
	will see some other 30 years of service, next they'll be moved
	to Depot.

	I would think that only those world's that are classified as
	rich will buy brand new SDB's, if they dont have own starport
	capacity to build them. It's like the Mic's we dont need that
	are flying now under Kroatia's color.
- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 98 21:53 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Trav Characters Good or Evil?

Moin Ewan Quibell,

> Isn't this why Mega Traveller was invented, not only to improve the rule
> set, but so the players could have adventures, of any nature and be on the
> good side (ie fighting for the correct faction), and not always being on
> the run from the authories (unless you count the enemy faction).

	In a war condition the distinction of good and bad is obsolent,
	MT therefore simplyfied the ethical question a good scenario
	has to offer for the group.

> TNE was just an extention of this by saving civilisation from the evil
> hords of the galaxy, ie TED's and viruses, but with a jar head outlook.

	IMTU (and I'm refreeing TNE) all fractions are evil. The
	StarVikings are a pack of pirates, if you think about legal S&G
	and auction.  The Guild using any oportunity to make a credit
	and to maintain their ships. This includes also slavery and
	dealing between vampires and TED's. TNE is ethical challenging
	as neither side is realy good.

	" The good is only good, if the bad is possible
	  The good is realy good, if the bad is profitable "

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 14:58:46 -0500
From: eris@pen.net
Subject: Re: Piracy now and in the Traveller universe

On 06/02/98 at 11:56 AM,  Scott Ellsworth
<Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu> said:

>So, when looking at the Traveller piracy debate, do be aware that
>these ships cost vastly, vastly more than equivalents do today,

Doesn't this argue that the current cost of Traveller ships is WAY too
high? 

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 13:45:14 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: 'High Crusade' movie

Dave Strebe wrote:
> 
> Are we talking 'Poul Anderson's High Crusade'?
> 

Yep.  I looked it up some more on the net and found thta it was released
either in '94 or '97 depending on where you look it up. It's apparently
an English language German production. John-Rhys Davies is in it, among
others.


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 13:53:02 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: OT: High crusade more info

here's the internet movie database entry on it:

http://us.imdb.com/Title?High+Crusade,+The+(1994)


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 15:31:03 -0500 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: Rome again?

>> Ah well. Say "La Guerre."
>
>Ok.  La Guerre.  The War.  Why?Oh!  You mean "C'est La Guerre" as in
>"C'est La Vie, C'est La Guerre" - Such is Life, Such id War.
                                                      ^^

Oooh. Psionics! And now the truth comes out -- the Zhos are French! I'm
surprised the Imperium had trouble with them in the Frontier Wars. ;-)

OffTrav: IMO, the most believable scene in the recent movie "Godzilla" was
the one where the French secret service agent -- armed with a SMG -- throws
up his hands and surrenders to the baby 'zillas, who then promptly jump on
him.

Ciao,


Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 13:56:24 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Ooop's forgot to add:

The producer of High Crusade was Roland Emmerich, also producer (or
co-producer) of :

Universal Soldier, Stargate, ID4, and Godzilla among others 

Fairly solid list of B flicks...

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 14:02:59 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)

Tue, 02 Jun 1998 01:03:38 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven
Hudson)
> >Well, ironically this is not worse than a policeman faced in
> >determining if a car was stolen before they all had access
> >to computer records (and before they had radios they couldn't
> >even check for cars that were wanted _right now_).  It
> >worked to provide a significant deterant for years providing
> >one situation in which stealing a car was not a sure thing.

>   The issue then becomes why a society with clear economic and security
> concerns would decline to use the most effective (and cost-efficient)
> mechanisms available to them.

Well, I don't find your proposals the most cost-effecient.  I
see significant costs associated with most, if not all, of the
proposals I've seen for enhancing security by restricting
or regulating trade (esp. if done in a way that would have
a real impact.)  (for reasons whe have debated).  I find
these debatable since I think that other less costly
methods would be sufficient to reduce piracy to an
acceptable level.

>   I'm amazed that the Imperium (without real-time commo or
> secure couriers) would consider a network of external agents
> to be any kind of substitute for effective internal security.

So would I.  Am saying that rather than draconian and
probably ineffective measures, they would use more
moderate internal measures along with external agents.

> >than active prevention in the Imperium.  Which is why I
> >don't see them using inspections.  If they can prevent
> >people from using nukes on the plane they were made, stolen,
> >etc. then they can use the same method on nukes from
> >different planets without disrupting trade.

>   What about the minor fact that this provides a wondeful supply of
> illegal nukes for other uses, including terrorism, private wars, and
> arming pirates, political dissidents, etc?

It doesn't.  I don't see how this addresses the point (perhaps
I am missing something).  To stop nukes by regulating trade
would require extreme measures and probably wouldn't work
anyway.  You would need to stop every, or almost every, ship
and do an intrusive search, but even that could be circumvented
by motivated agente (the kind that would be able to steal
a nuke in the first place).  Even that would only stop such
actions being carried out on planets other than where the nuke
was aquired.  Since you need a different security methods to
stop nukes anyway, it seems dumb to institute a policy
that disrupts trade and won't work.

The question about depots is a valid one, but the Imperium,
to exist as it does, must have some sort of border 
control.  In any case, the use of fuel depots to
get around border inspections could also be used to
get around ship inspections, so that wouldn't solve
the problem.  Nuke from domestic sources are easier
to control at the source.

> >I don't agree.  You are talking about intrusive inspection
> >of every ship on every jump.  Nukes can be shield.

>   No, I'm talking about random inspections at a level which provides
> a state of security that the Imperium finds acceptable. The other is
> possible, but leads more to an Orwellian Imperium, which wouldn't be
> much fun unless playing the Rebels from Star Wars.

The problem is that if you want to stop terrorists from
moving nukes, inspecting one in very 100 (or even one
in 10) ships isn't going to work.

>   How do you plan to shield your nukes?

Lead always work well (and they aren't so big they need
that much of it).  However, the fact is that starship
travel like in Traveller is dependant on the availability
of lightweight radiation shielding to protect ships from 
radiation.  Finally, even it you didn't have physical
shielding, you could use neuclear dampers to stop the
decay of radiactives until you are ready to use them.

> >I don't beleive cursory inspections are even going to come
> >close to stoping the movement of nukes.

>   If you have a 5% chance of being searched and illegal nukes being
> found, what penalty will be enough to make you not even consider the
> risk?

None.  You are talking terrorists and enemy agents who are already
risking life and death.  If the Red Guard had only a 5% chance
of failure in nuking Washington it would be radioactive pit.

> >with.  However, for nukes the Imperium appears to desire
> >to prevent any occurences by people (enemy agents, terrorists,
> >etc.) that are willing to take some significant risk.  
> >Random inspections won't work here.

>   Good point. By choosing not to attempt controlling the sources,
> you've postulated an Imperium which has no real defense against 
> nuclear terrorism. I can only assume that was your objective.

You must have missed something.  Control of the _sources_
of nukes, rather than catching them being moved through
interstellar space, is what I cam advocating. 

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 08:10:13 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Piracy

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes in part
> This gets *much* harder when you start dealing with
> large vessels that are *not* produced in the multiple
> millions per model. The parts are both more identifiable,
> and harder to get rid of because they are "model
> specific". 

That's why you build your ship, and attack ships who are 
built with QSDS :-)

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 13:43:15 +0000
From: edjs@mindlink.net
Subject: Re: Piracy in the Spinward Marches 

> From:          "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
> Date:          Mon, 01 Jun 1998 21:31:49 -0400
> Reply-to:      traveller@MPGN.COM

> > From what I recall of the article, they all had government type 0, and were 
> > outside the Imperium or other intersteller governments.

[...proper UPPs snipped...]

I wonder where the author got his info from, or if he was just making it up 
himself.


- --
Edward Swatschek
edjs@mindlink.net - edjs@bitslayer.net - ICQ 2684960
http://home.mindlink.net/edjs/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 08:20:05 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Piracy

I had written
> >>Perhaps a 400t freighter with a load of fighters would be a better
> >>pirate vessel than a 400t corsair? (at least it would be better at
> >>pretending to be a merchant :-)

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) replied: 
> See above. The physics involved in space are quite different than those
> that apply to surface vessels. Fighter aren't *significantly* faster
> than ships. If you can get a 6-g manuever drive in that pirate vessel,
> it's just as "fast" as any fighter, and can both absorb more damage and
> dish out more.

I agree about the physics of it, though it seems to me to 
be a lot cheaper to move a fighter at 6g than a corsair. 
Fighters are harder to hit, especially for a freighter 
without the appropriate fire control.

Consider also that the carrier is still going to be able to 
jump away at the end of it even if the victim gets some 
lucky shots in, whereas one lucky shot can ruin a jump grid 
and make the pirate dead in the system.

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 13:43:15 +0000
From: edjs@mindlink.net
Subject: Re: Planetary Geology Question, and possible Piracy synthesis

> Date:          Sun, 31 May 1998 00:31:01
> From:          Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
> 
> Veins of ore are fundamentally formed by volcanic activity, and the action
> of wind and water - in other words, by 'live' worlds, not by chunks of rock
> in space.
> 
> Asteroids, therefore, are going to be of constant composition. This is
> usually very bad - an entire asteroid of 99.5% nickle iron, 0.0045 percent
> lead and 0.005 percent silver is unlikely to be exploitable, regardless of
> the raw amount of silver 50 parts per million represents. On the other
> hand, a 1% silver, 95% nickle iron, 4% lead asteroid may be worth exploiting.

One potential wildcard is the Ancients.  I seem to recall that they turned a 
number of (likely 'live') planets into planetoid belts during their little war. 
These systems would be where the Seeker-type prospector might concentrate his 
efforts, hoping for that strike he can exploit with sweat, explosives, and a 
mining laser.


- --
Edward Swatschek
edjs@mindlink.net - edjs@bitslayer.net - ICQ 2684960
http://home.mindlink.net/edjs/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 17:15:41 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Piracy now and in the Traveller universe

At 02:58 PM 6/2/98 -0500, you wrote:
>On 06/02/98 at 11:56 AM,  Scott Ellsworth
><Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu> said:
>
>>So, when looking at the Traveller piracy debate, do be aware that
>>these ships cost vastly, vastly more than equivalents do today,
>
>Doesn't this argue that the current cost of Traveller ships is WAY too
>high? 

I always though the prices were a bit unreasonable.  One thing I never saw,
except for power plant efficiency, was economy of scale.  This goes not
only on prices, but performance as well.



Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 13:43:15 +0000
From: edjs@mindlink.net
Subject: Re: Star Luminosity Question

> Date:          Wed, 27 May 1998 22:23:31 -0400
> From:          Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
> 
> I just wanted to add a little pet project I had.  There's an awful lot of those M
> class binary systems which, in theory, wouldn't be very suitable.  Now, lets say
> you manage to generate a HUGE gravitational field that would draw the two stars
> together. There's a theory that if you can crash two stars into each other such
> that the close speed is less than their rotational speed, they'll just sorta merge
> and form a single star with the combined mass. You'd need to pull off the angular
> momentum some how, but that's what inner system planets are for :-)
> 
> Anyway, combining a couple of suitable M-V stars could generate a nice K class with
> a reasonable habitable zone.

I'd want to give the new star a few millenia to settle down, though, before 
moving in. :)


> It probably isn't feasible in a vanilla Traveller universe, but I was in a game
> where hyperspace magnified gravity greatly, and that's where I came up with the
> ploy.

In the Traveller universe, I think the existance of the jump drive makes major 
star and terraforming projects must less likely - why spend centuries creating 
a new world if you are likely only a few weeks travel from something liveable.  
Cultures that developed a moderate to high-tech civilization some time before 
jump drive reached them might have some impressive feats of terraforming.


- --
Edward Swatschek
edjs@mindlink.net - edjs@bitslayer.net - ICQ 2684960
http://home.mindlink.net/edjs/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 22:18:40 +0100
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Radiator Materials

> Unfortunately, it is also flammable, so don't use it in
> atmosphere -- use high-temperature oxides instead, some of which also have
> extremely high melting points.
>

I agree that HT oxides are the way to go.  I do not have the physical properties 
to hand, but a friend works in HT fuel cell research, and the "thermal oxide fuel 
cell" takes advantage of the good thermal conductivity combined with high melting 
point for some oxides.  I believe some of the oxides get quite interesting, as 
there are other desirable features to have in a fuel cell.


Simon

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 22:18:38 +0100
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: The Imperial Nobility (was Imperial Navy taskings)

> Is the British Monarchy self-supporting today?  I was under the impression
> that the royalty (including far-reaching cousins, etc) received some sort
> of government subsidy (that's a nice house the Queen lives in, eh?).  Can
> someone who knows more about the subject contribute their insight on this
> matter?

Many years ago the Monarchy handed loads of land back to Parliment in 
exchange for a future annual income (called "the Royal List", I believe).  If 
the Monarchy had kept the land, the current-day rental income would be (I am 
told) several times the current value of the List.

IMTU things work out in a similar way - member worlds of the Imperium can 
"buy" back their land from nobles/megacorps/other off-worlders in exchange 
for an annual payment.   The nobles/megacorps will often have come to own the 
land due to colonisation or mineral exploitation many generations in the 
past.  As the world pop has grown, it will want to become autonomous, and so 
Imperial law allows compulsory hire-purchase of the lands at a later stage.

The various laws are supposed to make this all equitable, but often low tech 
worlds cannot afford to pay the going price, leading to all sorts of tension.

Simon

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 14:25:17 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy now and in the Traveller universe

At 02:58 PM 6/2/98 -0500, you wrote:
>On 06/02/98 at 11:56 AM,  Scott Ellsworth
><Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu> said:
>
>>So, when looking at the Traveller piracy debate, do be aware that
>>these ships cost vastly, vastly more than equivalents do today,
>
>Doesn't this argue that the current cost of Traveller ships is WAY too
>high? 

Yes, it does.  IMTU, starships are dropping a lot in price, which makes it
feel more reasonable to me to have the fairly large and relatively
cosmopolitan traffic that the background seems to assume.  With the current
prices, those things are substantial investments - even a free trader is
like a small modern office building, with all of the intendant looking
around and curiosity that implies.   Further, a private yacht screams out
"Forbes 100 list member."

The argument I was making, albeit not well, was that the ships are so god
awful expensive in Traveller that the marginal benefit of taking a ship,
once disabled, is really, really high.  This also pushes up the cost of the
shipping part of the bill for a finished good, and should lead to much
higher cost per cubic meter cargoes.

It also justifies those amazingly high CT salaries - the pilot is being
paid something like seven times the average, and even a gunner is above the
average by likely a standard deviation.  Thus, space folk coming to a
planet look more like Asimov's spacers coming to visit than the typical
band of roughnecks.  This is not bad, mind, and might be a fun universe,
but it is a bit different than the typical traveller universe, where ships
lie in dock unguarded, and space folk are lowborn scum more often than not.

Scott

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 14:32:49 +0000
From: edjs@mindlink.net
Subject: Ship and trade economics (was something else being done to death

> From:          eris@pen.net
> Date:          Tue, 02 Jun 98 14:58:46 -0500
> 
> Doesn't this argue that the current cost of Traveller ships is WAY too
> high? 

IMHO, yes (for civilian ships).  IMTU, I'm toying with having civilian ships 
cost around 25% of the book price, but increase the cost of military hardware 
so that the costs of military ships do not drop.

Also, the typical cargo cost feels low.  Cr4000/ton is only Cr0.3/litre 
(images of ships emblazoned "The Real Thing(tm)" flash through my mind).  
And the standard cost of shipping goods is 25% of that value.  I like 
the Book 2 cargo table, where the base cost can go into the MCr per ton.  It 
becomes economically viable to transport a speculative cargo several jumps.  

Oh, and that rule that the sale of the cargo must go through once you roll the 
actual value table should disappear. This is in essence forcing traders to sell 
their goods at auction without minimum bids.


- --
Edward Swatschek
edjs@mindlink.net - edjs@bitslayer.net - ICQ 2684960
http://home.mindlink.net/edjs/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #547
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Traveller-digest       Wednesday, June 3 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 548


(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperial Navy taskings (not piracy?)
Re: Hijacking summation?
Re: Piracy now and in the Traveller universe
Re: Piracy
Re: Piracy
Re:  Trav Characters Good or Evil?
Re: Star Luminosity Question
Re: Piracy now and in the Traveller universe
Re: CD-ROM?
Re: Ship and trade economics (was something else being done to death
Re: Piracy
Puns
Re: The Imperial Nobility
Re: Trav Characters Good or Evil?
Re: 'High Crusade' movie
Re: piracy
Re: Trav Characters Good or Evil?
Re: The Imperial Nobility (was Imperial Navy taskings)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 14:26:06 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Navy taskings (not piracy?)

Tue, 02 Jun 1998 01:17:33 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
[Regarding whether the Imperium has any need for money
besides the Navy...]
You missed a few things (not all nobility own revenue
producing feifs, or even fiefs at all.  The cost of
a foreign service extends past the diplomats themselves
to include embassies, staff, ships to take secure
messages, etc.), some of your arguements are
more based on how things _could_ be (there is no
evidence to show that the X-boat network alone is
enough to support the scouts),  and some miss
the point (it doesn't matter if revenues for starports
are presented with the costs of running the starport
already subtracted, the fact remains that those costs
will detract from how much of the taxes and fees paid
at those ports will be available for other uses).
[I didn't go into all the arguements for breivity.]  

However, this is all irrelevant.  Even if we do sping things
so the Navy was the only Imperial agency they themselves
are going to have plenty of uses for any mony that comes
in.  They aren't going to have money lying around "left
over" that they spend because they have no other use
for it.  Whether it is the only department, or one of many,
the navy will have the same tension between needs and
revenues that any government agency has.  Wjether that
tension is based on budget allocations or closer to
the source on revenue collection, it exists.

>   All money taken in will be allocated, of course. The pressure
> to lower taxes would seem very weak from your proposal on how to
> address the implementation of a possible Jump-station system.

No.  In my proposal the additional taxes produced a direct
savings that both help pay for the taxes and makes there
acceptance easier.

Regarding the more interesting question of the Emperor, I do
think he gets a cut.  That is why I didn't site the huge
cost of mainting the capitol or the money he spends doing
things like mainting networks for jump 6 ships extragovernmentally
for his private use.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 14:50:13 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Hijacking summation?

Tue, 02 Jun 1998 01:44:07 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven
Hudson)
[You have been sending to many messages for me to keep
up on.  This is my last post on whether travel by
jump stations would make highjacking impossible.]

> >> >away today.  You either convince them you are the sort of
> >> >person who will kill you out of spite if you double
> >> >cross them, or you actually be that sort of person.

>   OK, I'll buy that, but it's another (small?) source of failure.

Oh, I agree there are risks.  Clearly enough obstacles
remain to make sure it doesn't happen very often.

>   Being on a known schedule in a heavy traffic system very strongly
> implies that there are other scheduled trips.

But not that those schedule match up well with yours.  And
even then you have the issue of less heavily trafficed
systems.

> >they just can't take the inspector hostage to demand fuel.
> >Or hold a gun in his back while he radios "all OK" to the
> >station.  And even if you have them dead to rights, you
> >have the problem of them deciding to blow the inspector
> >(and the station if it's not guarded) away and trying
> >to escape in system (criminals do things like that..)

>   Presumably security regulations do in fact specify firing
> in such hostage taking situations. Otherwise the system is
> hopelessly easy to compromise.

Yeah, if they have the guts (a lot of people have had
policies like this an not seen them implimented when
the time came. Even Israel has sometime giveing in).
Of course that means that when they take the inspector
and ask him to pretend everything is alright he will
have more motive to comply since security is just going
to shot and let him die.

> The station being sufficiently
> undergunned not to waste a small freighter effortlessly is
> ridiculous; such a fuel station would serve many of the functions
> of a high port, certainly enough to justify/require many thousands
> of tons of fittings.

Actualy, if you extrapolate drop tanks, they don't have to
be that big.  The main working part would be a set
if hoses that could be rapidly pulled away.  In any
case, how says it must be a small freighter?

> >Not all crimes.  Some crimes get politicized and garner 
> >disproportionate resources while other languish.  One
> >could assume that hijacking is one of these.  However,
> >that would be just that, an _assumption_, that doesn't
> >prove they can occur.  In anycase, this wouldn't work
> >forever because political winds shift and a crime that
> >was high profile in one period is not in another.

>   As an economic crime, how often in the future would you
> suggest that counting economic losses becomes unfashionable?

I don't.  I suggest that it will become unfashionable to
spend money to make a crime impossible that are disproporionate
to the losses to that crime.

>   If the Imperium doesn't consider piracy and hijacking serious
> crimes, then the Imperium is a farce and canon is meaningless.

Just because a crime is serious, doesn't mean that 
that society will try and wipe it out regardless of
the cost.

The US does almost
nothing to prevent serial murders from occuring.  This
is because they are rare.  It is a serious crime, but it
isn't seen as worth the kind of measures it would take
to make a significant impact in its occurance.


> The primary purpose of this state, and its claim to legitimacy,
> is its ability to secure interstellar space for the peaceful and
> unmolested use of its citizens.

And the Imperium will _never_ eliminate all causes of criminal
loss of life and property.  So, just like all societies, it
will settle for reducing these to acceptable levels.

> >All being insured means is that the money you spent for insurance
> >exeeds the potential losses times the probability of loss. 

>   Being insured means that (in addition to covering the insurers costs
> and profits) that if Something Bad Happens, you're not bankrupt. There
> are terms in the business world for people who don't insure when they
> can't afford the potential loss that they're risking.

And people who have not spent every penny possible to prevent
something bad from happening can still get insurance by simply
paying a rate that covers the risks and profits. If that
bad thing is unlikely, it is very easy for the money spent
on preventing the bad thing to exceed the money saved in
cheaper rates.

> >I think tracking them down later when they try and sell the
> >ship would be be biggie?  So would shipboard security.  (Both
> >anti hihack programs and making sure nobody caries weapons
> >on board).
 
>   What you're suggesting is virtually impossible in your suggested
> regulatory regime. Once a ship gets stolen by any means the ship is
> seemingly home free, AFAI can tell.

Here we don't agree.  But you haven't said why you think
the way you do, so detailed rebuttle isn't possible.

>   Let's take this more slowly. _Some_ inspections and _some_
> patrolling will go a long way towards controlling the problems.

Oh, I agree.  As I said in the other thread, I can see security
talking to a captain here or there, searching one now and then,
etc.  That could make hijackings uncommon.  What I don't agree
with is that hijacking would be impossible.

> >Transponders are.  I don't know if they are explicitly
> >tamperproof.  If they are, that is pretty unrealitic.

>   Yes, they are. I agree. Talk to the publishers?

Well, if they did what I said, they might not have
been introduced.  But I'm not sure there is anything
definative that says they are temperproof.

______________________________
 summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 16:54:11 -0500 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: Piracy now and in the Traveller universe

>>So, when looking at the Traveller piracy debate, do be aware that
>>these ships cost vastly, vastly more than equivalents do today,
>
>Doesn't this argue that the current cost of Traveller ships is WAY too
>high?

I think that is entirely the point of the TravPiracy thread from the "it
doesn't make sense" perspective. That according to the rules and background
as published (in the CT setting, at least), piracy doesn't make sense. This
includes such variables as vastly inflated costs for spacecraft.

It is an not an argument against piracy in Alternate Traveller Universes
(ATUs???), but in the Official Traveller Universe (OTU) in a stable 3rd
Imperium.

Ciao,


Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 16:27:59 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Piracy

 
> > See above. The physics involved in space are quite different than those
> > that apply to surface vessels. Fighter aren't *significantly* faster
> > than ships. If you can get a 6-g manuever drive in that pirate vessel,
> > it's just as "fast" as any fighter, and can both absorb more damage and
> > dish out more.
> 
> I agree about the physics of it, though it seems to me to 
> be a lot cheaper to move a fighter at 6g than a corsair. 
> Fighters are harder to hit, especially for a freighter 
> without the appropriate fire control.
 
True about the harder to hit part, but not so much the cost. Try to
actually design a 6g fighter some time. It gets really hard--they
are so densly packed that they tend to break the "slop rule" that
lets you use displacement instead of mass. Once you're into a mass
based design it becomes an iterative process, and gets tough to do
(and expensive; oops, I need a bigger drive, so a bigger PP, etc).

> Consider also that the carrier is still going to be able to 
> jump away at the end of it even if the victim gets some 
> lucky shots in, whereas one lucky shot can ruin a jump grid 
> and make the pirate dead in the system.

Yeah, there are some really good points to pirates using small
craft.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 15:01:25 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy

Tue, 2 Jun 1998 00:56:31 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> > There is a big gap between not having enough time to even
> > take cargo and being able to fix battle damage.  Also, if
> > you take cargo you just need to chase the crew into staterooms
> > and lock them in.  If you take the whole ship you have to
> > deal with taking the crew (in a way that they don't know
> > enough to testify against you later) or killing them
> > (upping the profile of the crime and the level of effort
> > that will be spend in catching you).  Probably not enough
> > to say that one will never take the ship, but, in my mind,
> > enough to say that a alot might not.

> Not so minor detail. Piracy has been a capital crime as long as law has
> existed. I doubt that it'll quit being one in the future. So there
> *isn't* any extra risk in offing the crew.

Well, I doubt that.  I know that air piracy has often not
included a capital offense and most European countries have
no death penalty for _any_ offense.  But my point wasn't
that the penalty was worse.  It was that law enforcement are
going go after those who kill people first and apply the
most resources to them.

> > My guess is that you either find a corrupt maintenance facility
> > or you get a good fake ID.  My guess is that if you are
> > taking ships in piracy, you will actually sell them as
> > parts rather than as whole ships (like they do with stolen
> > cars).

> This gets *much* harder when you start dealing with large vessels that
> are *not* produced in the multiple millions per model. The parts are
> both more identifiable, and harder to get rid of because they are
> "model specific".

But as long a supply of used parts exists (and it will for
all the standard ship designs) it will be easier than selling
a specific ship.

> > Well, he only needs odinance if he uses missles.  He may
> > not get a lot of battle damage if he takes on unarmed
> > ships.  And in any case he can just say he was attacked
> > by pirate :-)

> And then they ask why all the damage is on the *bow* of the ship rather
> than the stern. (ie why was he heading *towards* the pirate, rather
> than running away :-)

He was between you and your jump point?  You turned to face
him?  There are a lot of explanations.

> > Well, not the whole port, only one repair facility, and then
> > only if he can't pass for a legit ship.
 
> Pretty much the whole port *admin* structure, as any port is going to
> check transponder ID, and then check ships "papers" when it
> docks/lands. 

Well we have been over this.  I don't buy into the idea
 that you can just do a routine check and spot all the
ships that have engages in piracy for reasons that have
been hashed over in previous threads.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 19:06:51 +0000
From: "Pearson Publishing" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Re:  Trav Characters Good or Evil?

> Now I don't typically make up characters who are outright evil,
> and this quote came back to me as I was leafing through a copy of
> the old CT supplement "76 Patrons" yesterday.  Strangely, a good
> number (not all, but quite a few) of the adventure seeds are
> along the lines of: a patron asks the players to perform a
> kidnapping, steal something, run arms to terrorists, hijack a
> ship, or even outright assassination.

I noticed that too just recently.  I've made an attempt to keep this 
group of players on the "right side of the law."  Of course, laws 
have been broken, and even a murder (hmmm  won't be going back there 
for a while).  However, they make their living trading and picking up 
cargo and reselling it, saving planets and the such. 

 
> Now, with the suggested (implied: recommended) type of activity
> for typical characters being criminal in nature, I guess it's no
> wonder that Traveller picked up this kind of rep. It's just my
> opinion, but I don't think that characters necessarily have to be
> criminals to have exciting adventures in the Imperium (though I'm
> not knocking it if it's your kind of game).

I've also just recently (today) picked up "Milieu 0 Campaign."  The 
few patrons and adventure hooks seem less slanted in the direction 
than "76 Patrons."


James Pearson
jdpearson@wr.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 20:12:30 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Star Luminosity Question

edjs@mindlink.net wrote:

> > Date:          Wed, 27 May 1998 22:23:31 -0400
> > From:          Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
> >
> > I just wanted to add a little pet project I had.  There's an awful lot of those M
> > class binary systems which, in theory, wouldn't be very suitable.  Now, lets say
> > you manage to generate a HUGE gravitational field that would draw the two stars
> > together. There's a theory that if you can crash two stars into each other such
> > that the close speed is less than their rotational speed, they'll just sorta merge
> > and form a single star with the combined mass. You'd need to pull off the angular
> > momentum some how, but that's what inner system planets are for :-)
> >
> > Anyway, combining a couple of suitable M-V stars could generate a nice K class with
> > a reasonable habitable zone.
>
> I'd want to give the new star a few millenia to settle down, though, before
> moving in. :)

My research on the net pointed out this theory that just required a few weeks to calm
down.  Don't be near the star during those few weeks though.

>
>
> > It probably isn't feasible in a vanilla Traveller universe, but I was in a game
> > where hyperspace magnified gravity greatly, and that's where I came up with the
> > ploy.
>
> In the Traveller universe, I think the existance of the jump drive makes major
> star and terraforming projects must less likely - why spend centuries creating
> a new world if you are likely only a few weeks travel from something liveable.
> Cultures that developed a moderate to high-tech civilization some time before
> jump drive reached them might have some impressive feats of terraforming.
>

Corporate ownership.  Habitable planets already have people on them that will have their
own laws.  If you claim an inhospitable planet for your corporation (and nobody fights
your claim) terraforming and stellarforming it into into a corporate playground gives you
clear title.  It also lets you stretch your technology to its limits.

Claim a system, test your stellarforming theory and record the results.  At best, you've
got a nice new system.  At worst you've got a super-weapon which could be sold to the
military.

I'd also like to note that there are very large quantities of these inhospitable M class
systems out there, so the theory of settling elsewhere doesn't hold too much water.  Good
systems are few and far between.  Of course, you still have to find a binary system with
a planet in the right position, etc..

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 21:15:49 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Piracy now and in the Traveller universe

Hans,
    You didn't reply to the rest of my message so I'll quote it back to you.



"Don't get me
wrong here, I still feel that Pirates are a weak sister to other careers
available in the game.  There seems to be enough possibilities that it could
become a viable career option if your Erol Flynn is all I'm saying.  I also
believe, like you, that the encounters table is weighed much too heavily
toward having a pirate attack than seems justified.  How do we fix that in
CT, we don't, lets try for T4.1.  Aahhhh, wait a sec, that takes place back
in year 0 so pirates can operate there effectively.  Oh well, I guess we're
stuck with what we got.  I would add however, in CT it started a few years
before the fringes were stable.  In the ensuing years there were at least
two frontier wars with the Zho's.  Hhhmmm, that makes about three - six
years of a STABLE Empire so maybe, just maybe, CT's tables weren't off after
all......."

I think that the CT time line was roughly 1090 - 1016.  Not only were there
wars with the Zho's but also the Vagr incursions were taking place.  It's
starting to seem that for the time period that the OTU is set in there was a
great deal of strife and instability which would foment things like piracy,
terrorists, star mercs et all.  Its possible that YTU was stable but the
real one wasn't.  Hmmmmm, I think I'll take the official "canon" stand that
piracy was a problem when the CT time lines were drawn.

See Ya,
Thom

- -----Original Message-----
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Piracy now and in the Traveller universe


>Thom Harris writes:
>
>>Here ya go:
>>...I think we both believe that if they continue as pirates for very long
>>they WILL be caught.  I never envisioned them doing it for 30 years (or
>>more) myself.
>
>But in the OTU some pirates do just that.
>
>      Hans Rancke
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 19:01:54 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: CD-ROM?

>What ever became of the CD-ROM containing all the articles from TML,
>X-Boat, etc that was being worked on?  I've been waiting to hear when
>it was available, where to order it from, and what the final price was
>going to be.
....

  That makes twice today that I've answered that question :)

>  There's a project on-going to put nearly all OOP Traveller material on
>CD-ROM for sale. I'm not aware of current projected release dates or cost.
>
>  As though I care about the latter - I'll buy it (/them) regardless.
>
>        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 20:59:27 -0500
From: eris@pen.net
Subject: Re: Ship and trade economics (was something else being done to death

On 06/02/98 at 02:32 PM,  edjs@mindlink.net said:

>> Doesn't this argue that the current cost of Traveller ships is WAY too
>> high? 

>IMHO, yes (for civilian ships).  IMTU, I'm toying with having
>civilian ships  cost around 25% of the book price, but increase the
>cost of military hardware  so that the costs of military ships do not
>drop.

A technique that I've been thinking about is having TL *strongly*
affect the price/quality of various components.  Components for
civilian ships would be generally built with older more mature
technology and receive a big discount with the tradeoff being the
components are of no-where near cutting edge capability (short range
sensors, weaker weapons, fuel hungry drives etc).  Military components
would be built at (or beyond) cutting edge TL and would be
exponentially more expensive, but also be more capable.

>Also, the typical cargo cost feels low.  Cr4000/ton is only
>Cr0.3/litre  (images of ships emblazoned "The Real Thing(tm)" flash
>through my mind).   And the standard cost of shipping goods is 25% of
>that value.  I like  the Book 2 cargo table, where the base cost can
>go into the MCr per ton.  It  becomes economically viable to
>transport a speculative cargo several jumps.  

With lower priced civilian ships, I can see fairly standard *freight*
rates of 500-1000cr per ton per parsec being reasonable, especially in
either a competitive or strictly regulated environment.  Obviously, in
a free market rates will be whatever the market will bear.  If the
merchant has a contract at 4Kcr/ton to get a load of ring trout to a
market by a certain time, and there is only ship going that way that
wants 2Kcr/ton the merchant will pay it.  Will he pay it at 3Kcr/ton?
How about at 3.9Kcr/ton?  

For speculative *cargo* (and remember one man's freight can be another
man's cargo) I prefer something more like Book 2 or Rob Prior's
system. Some items should be millions of credits per ton (gems,
pharmacuticles, hi-tech equipment), and some should be bulk (flour,
cloth, ore) items running only a few credits per ton.  Profit or loss
is the difference between what was paid for the cargo and what you can
get for it, obviously.  What isn't so obvious is that most PC
speculators won't have the cash to buy 150,000,000cr cargos outright
and probably can't even get the credit to finance them.  Shoot, even
if they could finance such a deal the interest on it and the required
insurance would probably eat up most of the profit.

Another thing is market saturation.  Sure Bernitz will pay *big* bucks
for widgets *this* month...there's a widget shortage.  But now that
you've brought in 300,000 widgets, and eased the widget shortage you
aren't likely to get those big bucks on your next run, maybe not for
years, maybe never again.  I don't really have *rules* for something
like this, but keeping it in mind, especially when players don't, can
be a good way to reduce a party's capital.  ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 19:17:09 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Piracy
...
>>  How is the amount of evidence/info gained much different if
>>you leave the ship as opposed to removing it?
>
>If you take the whole ship, you either have to kill the crew
>(which ups the importance of the crime) or you have to interact
>with them (letting them get a good look at you).

  So they get a good look at your vacc suit. So?

>>Wouldn't the ship
>>itself actually contain potentially lethal info after the encounter,
>>and leaving it behind thus be more compromising?
>
>Like what?

  All the sensor (/fire control) info acquired during the intercept
(and battle if any), including camera or telescope work, particularly
prior to docking or cargo transfer.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 23:07:52 EDT
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Puns

Bloo:

>> Ah well. Say "La Guerre."
>
>Ok.  La Guerre.  The War.  Why?Oh!  You mean "C'est La Guerre" as in
>"C'est La Vie, C'est La Guerre" - Such is Life, Such id War.
>
>I'm drowning in the angst.
>
>:-P

Remind me never to tell you my other bi-lingual puns. Oh, if you insist...

My favorite is the lost book by Lewis Carroll: _Alice in Ordnung_

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 20:22:37 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: The Imperial Nobility

>From: "Brannon \"Ben\" Boren" <brannonb@blarg.net>
>Subject: The Imperial Nobility 
...
>Is the British Monarchy self-supporting today?  I was under the impression
>that the royalty (including far-reaching cousins, etc) received some sort
>of government subsidy (that's a nice house the Queen lives in, eh?).  Can
>someone who knows more about the subject contribute their insight on this
>matter?

  The Civil List is voted by Parliament; IIRC it runs under 10-20 million
pounds - 8 mill sounds familiar for current.

>This is the way I see it in my Traveller Universe - Barons and above
>receive some sort of Imperial stipend. After all, you can't have the rank
>and file people seeing the Nobilty doing the same things as the commoners! 
>The nobility have to "keep up appearances," even if it means supporting the
>lazy royal cousins.

  Don't "real" (as opposed to PC) Barons, etc., have fiefs in the Trav
background? I suppose you could have "robe" nobility ennobled for service
(similar to Russian or French [vaguely] service nobility under the ancien
regime) without property or incomes separate from their service office and
maybe a pension.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 22:04:45 -0500
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconnaught@fiastl.net>
Subject: Re: Trav Characters Good or Evil?

Snip" "
On good and evil, well there once was a gentleman of
germanic extraction who wrote at length on that subject
but I digress. Traveller PC's are no more good or evil than
the GM  and party make them out to be. As far as the average
tasks or campaign "hooks" that are used to get the players
moving Traveller is fairly low key. Just review for a moment
such memorable (sic) RPG's as Mercenaries, Spies and Private
Eyes, MERC or Space Opera (for those numerically minded). These
are just a few of the technically inclined RPG's in my collection then
you have the entire melieu of fantastic gaming to explore.

My thought is simply this. RPG gaming involves people using PCs who
are exceptional individuals (even if artificial). This can be inherent or
due to some other circumstance. As my very first GM from way back in the
"Day" (you all remember the little 5.5 x 8.5 white books) said to me"Ok, it
may be
realistic but who wants to role-play a peasant planting the spring seeds?"

It's a game and I suspect that we've all seen to many movies not have a bit
of
fun.

So there, (It my first pseudo rant. Wow, it was kind of fun)
Thanks for reading this
Feel free to respond vigorously
Thanks
Pat Connaughton
pconnaught@fiastl.net
"It's the only game in town"
ICQ Member # 2535086

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 21:54:55 -0500
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconnaught@fiastl.net>
Subject: Re: 'High Crusade' movie

Snip
Bruce, I've never heard of the movie, though I really
love the book and have it in my permanent collection
of science fiction. Could you find out more details
- - distributor, production company etc?

Please advise
Thanks

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 21:52:56 -0500
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconnaught@fiastl.net>
Subject: Re: piracy

The "Lord Jim" Syndrome comes to mind.
This would make a good scenario for an NPC 
who'd interact with the party on an occasional 
basis. You know - the guys that you run into every so 
often in shady, out of the way "starports" etc.

Kudos - Nice idea.
Pat Connaughton
pconnaught@fiastl.net
"It's the only game in town"
ICQ Member # 2535086

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 01:11:56 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Trav Characters Good or Evil?

The most enjoyable characters I ever ran were investigators: Imperial,
Darrian, local political, and even one insurance investigator. The insurance
guy was secretly psionic, and caught a lot of people that way, so I guess he
would be the closest one that was "evil" (in the Imperium anyway). It all
depends on your, and your gamemaster's tastes.

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 01:17:52 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: The Imperial Nobility (was Imperial Navy taskings)

Rebellion Sourcebook specifically mentioned that Strephon supported his
nephews Varian, and Lucan, and even gave them apartments in the palace, but
then again, it implied that they (especially Lucan) were were of a pain in the
A--, than the British Royals. :-)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #548
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Wednesday, June 3 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 549



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: OT: 'High Crusade' movie
Re: The Imperial Nobility (was Imperial Navy taskings) 
Re: CD-ROM?
Re: Spaceways Diary 006-1120
Re: Piracy
Re: Piracy In Walts Trav Universe
Re: CD-ROM?
Re: Imperial Navy taskings (not piracy?)
Re: Subs & Sandwiches (shorter)
Trav characters good or evil?
Piracy
Trav characters good or evil?
Re: Spaceways Diary 006-1120
Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 01:19:33 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: OT: 'High Crusade' movie

No, but if you get the studio who filmed it, and the actors in it (so I can
ask my distributor to find it); please post it!

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 01:41:44 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: The Imperial Nobility (was Imperial Navy taskings) 

> Rebellion Sourcebook specifically mentioned that Strephon supported his
> nephews Varian, and Lucan, and even gave them apartments in the palace, but
> then again, it implied that they (especially Lucan) were were of a pain in the
> A--, than the British Royals. :-)

But did they have jug ears & tend to fall off of riding beasts while showing 
off the Imperial bloodline?

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 01:46:18 EDT
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Re: CD-ROM?

	Yeap, you missed out.
	It's out (such as it is :) ).
	The first purchaser's finally recieved there first copy a couple of weeks
ago. I've been awaiting any complaints about problems before posting an
update, especially as one person had a problem on their MAC.
	The only complaints so far is the multitude of info on the disc (about
200-230 megs of material). And growing.

	Cost was $15 for U.S. orders, $10 for HIWG members (add another $2 for S&H
right now, postage costs have been a bit higher than expected right now).
Payment preferred is by Money Order. And please allow 4-6 weeks for delivery
:) (only reason for that is I need to disassemble my computer to swap some
boards).
	Send payment to:
	Bryan Borich
	3890 50th street
	San Diego, CA 92105-3005


Bryan


P.S. Their were a bunch of overseas queries before about buying the CD thast I
had put off since I'd been hoping to trade them through CORE in order to save
overseas orders some money (because of the cost of International Money
Orders), however this doesn't seem to be happening so to avoid any further
delay. You can go ahead and place orders. In the case of U.K. purchasers I'd
probably still be willing to trade a CD for one or two CORE products, however
please email me privately to arrange such a deal.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 23:08:18 -0700
From: Richard Hough <richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com>
Subject: Re: Spaceways Diary 006-1120

>The asteroid was broken into several diverging fragments by the charges.
>All the larger fragments missed the Port Asteroid, though heavy damage was
>sustained from smaller debris. A special posthumous Mention In Dispatches
>was made of the entire crew of the SDB Havoc (Sublieutenant Andrea Ilviian,
>IN), which positioned itself over the main habitation zone and attempted to
>intercept the smaller rock fragments with laser fire. Several such
>fragments were destroyed before the Havoc was herself struck.

I don't get it. The first time I heard of the idea of an asteroid hitting
the Earth or whatever, I thought the obvious thing to do was to land a
great honkin' big rocket on it and perturb its trajectory enough so it
misses Earth. Yet every science-fiction movie, TV special, book, and game
that includes this scenario always has the Authorities try to blow up the
asteroid. I even seem to recall Ronnie Reagan justifying a ballistic
missile buildup so that they could be used for just this purpose.

Someone, please correct me if I'm wrong, but even if you were somehow able
to blow an asteroid up (with lasers? What are they made of... nitro?) would
the centre of mass of the fragments not follow the same trajectory as the
original asteroid... that is, straight for Redmond, WA?

I think an earlier poster talking about this claimed the debris blown off
the asteroid would provide thrust or something. I don't buy it. I have seen
buildings demolished with explosives, and they do not undergo thrust. The
walls and such get stirred around a bit but end up in the same geographical
location as they started, I have never seen a demolished building lift off
and file a flight plan to the nearest sanitary landfill site.

Obviously these highly paid science fiction writers and directors know
something I don't because I have seen over a half-dozen "asteroid targets
Earth while protagonists fall in love" features and never never NEVER have
the Authorities tried to nudge the asteroid away from a direct collision.
Probably for good reason too, since the closing scene is usually our two
lovers kissing while the asteroid goes up like fireworks, leaving only a
tiny fraction of the original asteroid's mass to hit important tourist
sites.
- --
Richard Hough
richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 00:55:31 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy

Hello,
>From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
>Subject: Re: Piracy
...
>We'll he can't operate other places than he can operate, and since a
>pirate has to do something with his lote, he definitivly needs someplace
>that dosn't really care what he does, the question is how many places are
>there in known space that has this attiutude, and this is again a result
>of how you view the Imperium. Where Steven Hudson views it as a nation
>with a strong need for internal security, I see it as a loose entity of

  Actually I view it as a state institution (it certainly is not a nation)
whose raison d`etre is to provide a security umbrella (external and internal)
for the peaceful interaction of its member worlds. I'd be interested in any
GDW text that contradicts that.

  My point is that while the obvious purpose of the IN is external security
(mainly enforced by strategic reserves, including colonial forces), that it
is impossible to divest the internal role from the external, unrealistic to
ignore the aspect of political legitimacy, and illogical to ignore the
peacetime deployments of the war readiness assets of the barious navies.

>worlds, where the individual worlds are more interested in their own
>security than that of their neighbours. "There was another pirate attack
>on a vessel in the system three parsec rimwards. Blahh, thats just what
>they deserve. They should learn from us, we never had that problem
>here"-attitude.

  This may very well be an appropriate attitude for them to take, but as
the debates on the logistics of piracy clearly indicate, any world that
allows a nearby safe haven (or pirate unit) to exist when it could easily
affect that situation is clearly harming its' own commercial and security
interests, even ignoring potential Imperial concern.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 19:44:27
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Piracy In Walts Trav Universe

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: Piracy IMPHBTPEITU (long)

>It's hard to take someone else's ship with you after you board it.
>Manpower problems (you can't make a ship jump without 
>a navigator on board), frequent lack of fuel aboard the target vessel,
>and the ability of many shipmasters to lock out all but the most
>professional hackers from their computers tend to remove the ship
>itself as a target. Also, selling a ship requires some pretty specialized
>contacts due to the long paper trail involved - some pirate crews can
>do it, most find it too involved and more dangerous than taking the ship
>in the first place.
>

I'm confused. Why not bring along a spare navigator, as well as a Far
Trader with a full load of collapsible tankage to refuel captured ships.

>(Groups who _do_ have the manpower and expertise to crack into
>ship's computers, kill the crew, fly off with the ship and sell it for
>a profit don't risk their lives in space combat - they form hijacking
>teams and ride as passengers. They usually have to take the ship
>before it enters jumpspace (so they can pick the destination), but
>they like to strike during jump preparations because that's when the
>crew and the computer are busiest.)

Hijacking has an entire seperate sets of risks.

>
>The "average" pirate will be a small (100 to 400 ton) jump-capable
>vessel. Type S Scout ships are minimally capable for this task,
>but are popular because they are ubiquitous, often travel with no
>flight plans, have oddball paper trails as a normal course of business
>and (IMTU at least) can be kept barely functional without seeing a
>class-B startport for years - though at a cost of steadily increasing
>field maintenance efforts.

These vessels will be a 50/50 proposition against most armed merchentmen.

>
>A variety of 400-ton range vessels are the more common pirate,
>usually mutinied patrol cruisers or starmerc commerce raiders that
>ran out of war or were otherwise cashiered - the StarMerc that can't
>get contracts anymore because of incompetence or inability to follow
>the rules is a popular image of the "Classic Pirate", and does exist
>though is rare. Mutinied patrol vessels occur with some frequency 
>because the officers of such vessels are the least competent or least
>experienced in the Navy (experienced and competent ones get
>to command Destroyers and up). Further, the crews of such vessels
>tend to be people that aren't doing well in the big happy family of the
>Navy. Note that "Navy" here means the Subsector & Sector Navies - 
>the Imperial Navy does a better job at maintaining it's reputation as
>professionals, even at the patrol vessel level.

The manpower requirement of the Space Navy is small vis a vis the cost of
building the same. I see space navies in general as having a social profile
far closer to the Air Force than the Army.

>
>Patrol Cruisers, BTW, aren't front-line combat vessels - they are
>designed as long-duration multi-role ships, able to do everything
>from search & rescue to boarding of suspected smugglers.
>The enforcement of red-zones against ethically-challenged
>free trader captains can be great training for a Patrol Cruiser
>crew - the skills and actions needed are almost identical to what
>they'll need after they mutiny and take up piracy. ;)

Poachers, gamekeepers and all that :)

>
>(Note that the average patrol vessel encountered is Subsector or Sector
>Navy, colonial ships. Imperial patrols are only encountered around
>Impie Navy bases and operational fleets, or the occaisional anti-piracy
>sweep or patrol maneuvers. The fact that Impie patrol squadrons will
>do anti-piracy sweeps through areas already at least nominally patrolled
>by local forces shoould show you what the Impies think of local 
>capabilities. The free trader is ambivalent about the situation - Impies
>are good at clearing out pirates, but tend to perform board & inspect
>more often, which can make the free trader a bit nervous.)
>
>The Imperial Scout Service has lost a few X-Boat Tenders to pirates.
>These ships often make long trips to outlying systems to pick up
>misdirected X-Boats, and some of these systems turn out to be
>more dangerous than expected. These ships would be used as
>mobile bases of operations, rather than as attack ships in their
>own right.
>
>Pirates will usually try to create a base of operations to perform
>repairs, stockpile supplies and store stolen cargos. Asteroids are
>popular, due to the distance from gravity wells and how lonely the
>average asteroid is. The asteroid will be hollowed out, chunks from
>a captured ship will be welded into it (hatches, power plant,
>life support, etc) and it will be ready for action.
>
>This kind of jury-rigged building and maintenance are a hallmark of
>all but the best-connected pirates. Annual maintenance, battle
>damage repairs, even refits are performed under dangerous,
>difficult and poorly-equipped conditions, kind of like a medic
>performing field surgery on someone who ought to be in a hospital.
>Burn-scarred, maimed pirates are not just the stuff of holovid shows - 
>pulling a fusion plant with nothing but a chopped-down air-raft is
>_dangerous_.
>

Better make that a sled with an Aluminium Oxide solid-fuel booster strapped
on the back. You are too far outside a gravity well for an air raft to work.

>Mainly due to this kind of abuse, pirate vessels won't last the hundreds
>of years one might get out a well-maintained ship. In a hard fight
>with a Patrol Cruiser, it's likely to be a system that fails under the 
>stress of relatively minor damage that kills the pirate ship. 

Does the same thing happen when a Merchant Captain decides to see if the
450 MJ Famile Spofulam battery-powered laser was a good investment ?

>
>Note for the "must swim with the fishes" people out there: the
>average pirate ship will _never_ call at a starport that has any kind
>of legal controls or Imperial presence. It will never, except at long ranges
>or in the most cursory manner, be able to play the role of honest
>merchant - and it works within these limitations.

If pirate ships are exempted from annual maintainence at type B starports,
are merchant ships ?

If they have a radically higher misjump chance (say, 1 in 36), then they
are going to be a suicide trip.

>
>Pirates make arrangements with criminal groups or even individual
>smugglers to buy cargos they have stolen. They keep what they
>need for their jury-rigged ship repairs, and hope for the big haul - 
>except that the mind-set that leads someone into being a pirate
>often has the big haul make them overconfident, so they go for
>a bigger one.
>
>A ship hunted by a pirate can expect the following to happen:
>
>1) Some deception may occur. A pirate may pretend to be
>a customs or patrol vessel - a deception that will not last long,
>but may allow the first stages of an intercept to occur. Stealth
>capabilites, for those pirates lucky enough to have them,
>are made use of.
>

At what range does this occour ? And at what range from a planet ?

>2) Calling for help will probably do little good, unless they can delay
>the pirate through unexpected thrust capabilities or good battle
>tactics/weaponry - many of which will make the pirate give up anyway,
>unless desperation or prospect of an unusually great haul perks up the
>pirate's courage. The target was detected by the pirate too far from help,
>either due to a minor misjump outside the usual traffic lanes or because
>the target is in a place where patrols don't go. Or perhaps something
>has already happened to the local patrol ship - if the planet Pinata
>only has two Patrol Ships, and five or six pirates club together to
>bushwhack the patrol, they'll have free rein of the system (away from
>whatever planetary defenses there might be) for weeks.

Hanging out in places patrols dont go will elad to ships going there being
better-armed than usual. You can do a lot with 30 dtons of cargo bay
dedicated to missiles, sub-craft and battery-powered lasers.

Waiting for Godot, sorry, minor misjumps to happen where you happen to be
waiting sounds like a good recepie for many many boring months in space,
probably ended by a patrolling vessel.

If they can only afford 2 patrol craft, then they wont have much in
planetary defenses. Just loot the planet.

>
>3) The pirate will intercept. She may order the target to cut engines
>pretty early - high-speed passes won't get you cargo, but they will
>wreck your merchant ship. It's easier to intercept a target if you don't
>care about relative velocities at intercept, but impossible to board
>a ship unless you match velocities - the threat of a battle pass should
>suffice to keep the target from evading, or even get the target to
>maneuver to redezvous with you.

Hmmm, did you see the FS modified Tracey class - the one with the spinal
Meson Gun ?

One of those things at 10 000km could really wreck the pirate's day, and if
using purely passive sensors the pirate will never know what is about to
hit them ... apart perhaps from the manic giggling coming from Ditzie at
the Main Gunnery station.

This is part of why I like a secondary power capability from batteries -
you can show up as having zero power output, and still have enough juice
for an alpha strike.

>
>4) The merchant will be boarded. Some pirate vessels have
>(or the merchant will think they have) too small a crew to force
>a boarding - the loss of the boarding party might leave the pirate
>ship too undermanned to keep the merchant from escaping, even
>from right under it's guns. This will lead to merchant passengers 
>or crew, in some situations, to resist the boarding party. Considering
>how many interstellar travellers will be wealthy/noble (and have
>bodyguards) or will be military/ex-military, this happens more often
>than you might think. Considering how many pirate vessels have
>severe manpower problems, this works more often than you might
>think. A rare, though not unheard-of occurance is for a merchant to
>come to port with a captured pirate ship right behind it.

I'm inclined to think expendable gunsels are one of your lesser problems -
go to some TL 5-8 worlds and recruit ex-military types.

>
>5) The merchant will be looted. Damage (to the ship and people aboard)
>will often depend on how much trouble they gave the pirate.
>Depending on the time factor, varying amounts of looting will occur.
>The ship's safe may be cleaned out, usually with the help of the
>Shipmaster or Chief Purser (obtained at gunpoint). 

If you have this level of cooperation, why not take the whole shebang ??? I
just dont get this resistance to leave the single most valuable thing there.

>Impie patrol cruisers, of course, have no patience for or romantic notions
>about pirates, and no respect for them whatsoever - even to the point
>of underestimating them on occaision. Their definition of "pirate"
>can also be a bit fuzzy at times, so many independent merchants are
>leery of "Imperial Entaglements". Subsector and even Sector patrol
>cruisers are usually more respectful of the threat.

What is the legality of a privately owned Meson Gun, anyway ???

>
>Being a pirate is dangerous, risky, and a bad idea. Many people find it
>the best choice from a list of really bad ones, or are good at making
>bad choices - or even good at making bad choices work out.
>
>Just some concatenations of what players encountered IMPHBTPEITU.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 03:43:59 -0400
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM?

- -----Original Message-----
From: Kagehira@aol.com <Kagehira@aol.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, June 03, 1998 1:49 AM
Subject: Re: CD-ROM?


> Yeap, you missed out.
> It's out (such as it is :) ).
> The first purchaser's finally recieved there first copy a couple of weeks
>ago. I've been awaiting any complaints about problems before posting an
>update, especially as one person had a problem on their MAC.
> The only complaints so far is the multitude of info on the disc (about
>200-230 megs of material). And growing.
>
> Cost was $15 for U.S. orders, $10 for HIWG members (add another $2 for S&H
>right now, postage costs have been a bit higher than expected right now).
>Payment preferred is by Money Order. And please allow 4-6 weeks for
delivery
>:) (only reason for that is I need to disassemble my computer to swap some
>boards).
> Send payment to:
> Bryan Borich
> 3890 50th street
> San Diego, CA 92105-3005
>
>
>Bryan
>
>
>P.S. Their were a bunch of overseas queries before about buying the CD
thast I
>had put off since I'd been hoping to trade them through CORE in order to
save
>overseas orders some money (because of the cost of International Money
>Orders), however this doesn't seem to be happening so to avoid any further
>delay. You can go ahead and place orders. In the case of U.K. purchasers
I'd
>probably still be willing to trade a CD for one or two CORE products,
however
>please email me privately to arrange such a deal

What does this CD contain?

I have the original LONG WAY HOME, 101 Plots and 101 Cargoes.need those?

Allen.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 01:48:53 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Navy taskings (not piracy?)

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Navy taskings (not piracy?)
...
>You missed a few things (not all nobility own revenue
>producing feifs, or even fiefs at all.  The cost of

  Sure. But then what "money flowing through the nobilty"
are you referring to?

>a foreign service extends past the diplomats themselves
>to include embassies, staff, ships to take secure
>messages, etc.), some of your arguements are

  Quite true, and no doubt substantial when everythings added up.
Relatively insignificant compared to a single BatRon, though.

>more based on how things _could_ be (there is no
>evidence to show that the X-boat network alone is
>enough to support the scouts),  and some miss

  True. OC, I never suggested that (specifically assuming that they
had a budget), but it must be a considerable revenue.

>the point (it doesn't matter if revenues for starports
>are presented with the costs of running the starport
>already subtracted, the fact remains that those costs
>will detract from how much of the taxes and fees paid
>at those ports will be available for other uses). 

  So the Imperium runs the starports and gets a significant element of
its' revenue stream from taxes and fees paid at them?

...
>for it.  Whether it is the only department, or one of many,
>the navy will have the same tension between needs and
>revenues that any government agency has.  Wjether that
>tension is based on budget allocations or closer to
>the source on revenue collection, it exists.

  True. I've yet to see an elaboration of why a Navy that seems to possess
such a vast (and immensely expensive) fleet, including (pardon the phrase)
presumed astronomical quantities of small escort/patrol/picket/raider ships
(not even counting local navies and non-starships) would be either unable or
unwilling to deploy them in any meaningful internal security effort.

>>   All money taken in will be allocated, of course. The pressure
>> to lower taxes would seem very weak from your proposal on how to
>> address the implementation of a possible Jump-station system.
>
>No.  In my proposal the additional taxes produced a direct
>savings that both help pay for the taxes and makes there
>acceptance easier.

  Try that again? I thought it was the presumed investment in the
jump-station/tanker system that produced the saving, and that the
taxes were what paid for the massive expansion of the Imperial Navy
tanker assets that your last suggestion seemed to require.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 02:07:14 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Subs & Sandwiches (shorter)

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Subs & Sandwiches
...
>>  Umm, yes. Look at/imagine the volumes of trade between worlds, with
>>some consideration to the economic predominance of the pop 9+ worlds.
>>I happen to have some problems with those models, but those are the
>>ones being kicked around.
>
>OK, first, for the record, you aren't argueing "by definition"
>here.  But to address the curent point.

  "By definition, the vast majority of traffic (at least by tonnage)
is to high-traffic systems". 

  If there's a major flaw in that statement, I'd like to know about it.

>>  According to canon, there are single planets out there whose economies
>>exceed those of the bottom half or two-thirds (at least) of the 11,000
>>worlds in the Imperium _combined_. High-pop planets, and any system in
>>close proximity to them, will not be low or even medium traffic in any
>>meaningful sense of the word.
>
>Two point.  You are assming that numbers of ships is proportional
>to the size of the economy, in high volume routes a lot of this
>will be via larger ships, rather than more small ships.  Second,

  No, I'm not. Please see the comment in quotation marks, above.

>being in close proximity to a high traffic world does _not_
>automatically mean you will get more traffic.

  Only true if the system in question is of no intrinsic interest and
isn't a useful refuelling point to somewhere that is worth connecting
to. There's going to be relatively few systems that fit those terms.

...
>Wether they traffic is regularly scheduled or not makes
>not difference.  If a world doesn't actract shipping, it
>won't attrack all kind's of shippings.  Noone is going
>to set up regular runs to worlds that normally can't
>attrack that traffic.

  We're not talking about backwaters here (except maybe compared to
high-pop worlds) - "medium traffic routes" is a very rough term, but 
I would suggest that the first step down from high traffic is going
to be a reduction in the truly large mega-corp freighters. Would you
accept that working definition?

...
>>  Presumably in CT ships spent those extra days on the world doing
>>something; it's reasonable to conclude that it was business related.
>
>Sure, they are looking for the best cargo.  I see nothing that
>says that they are waiting for another ship so they can send
>a "we are coming" message.

  Neither do I. But why not use that capability where it exist?

...
>>a load put together. If a ship is heading to your destination, you, a
>>passenger, or someone acting on behalf of someone could send a message ahead.
>
>_If_ a ship is heading your way.

  Luckily, I specified that. It's a heck of a jog for the cabin boy.
Remember, we're discussing (IIRC) "medium traffic routes", which is
presumably an intermediate step between high and low.

>>  Send a letter? Presumably the crew are too busy to read all of
>>the several thousand (10,000's?) of messages they might carry as
>>physical or electronic cargo?
>
>Yeah, but a message from a competator to his next port of call
>might just get special attention?

 i) what if a customer sends it?
 ii) what if it's sent via a local courier companies mail container?

  Even if you do (why?) have such a message hand delivered by the deck
officer of another vessel it seems deliberately ridiculous to assume that
sending ahead a message confirming your ETA, when you've already announced
your departure time and destination (to get custom) will compromise your
business dealings in any meaningful way. Would you care to specify what
portion of the picture here I've missed?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 05:23:17 -0400
From: Andy Slack <AndySlack@compuserve.com>
Subject: Trav characters good or evil?

Message text written by Ben:
>Now, with the suggested (implied: recommended) type of activity for
typical
characters being criminal in nature, I guess it's no wonder that Traveller
picked up this kind of rep. It's just my opinion, but I don't think that
characters necessarily have to be criminals to have exciting adventures in
the Imperium (though I'm not knocking it if it's your kind of game).
<

I got around this by having the PCs be members of a secret undercover
organisation, so they got to do this stuff but only to NPCs who were
established by the storyline as a Bad Lot. And thus the Covert
Survey Bureau was born...

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 05:23:37 -0400
From: Andy Slack <AndySlack@compuserve.com>
Subject: Piracy

Message text written by Shadow:
>Not so minor detail. Piracy has been a capital crime as long as law has
existed. I doubt that it'll quit being one in the future. So there
*isn't* any extra risk in offing the crew. <

Hmm... if you off the crew, the next lot you intercept may as well fight to
the death. If you're known to be a rough but jolly pirate who just steals
the cargo (which doesn't belong to the crew) and leaves the crew alive
and their ship intact (which may well belong to them), you risk less
battle damage yourself.

IMTU, the eithically challenged free traders are by turns pirates,
smugglers,
legitimate traders and privateers, depending on circumstances. This
makes the above more important as the two crews may well know each
other - sort of like the condottieri in Renaissance Italy deciding the
outcome of a battle according to manoeuvring, without actually killing
each other.

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 05:23:34 -0400
From: Andy Slack <AndySlack@compuserve.com>
Subject: Trav characters good or evil?

Message text written by Ewan
>Isn't this why Mega Traveller was invented, not only to improve the rule
set, but so the players could have adventures, of any nature and be on the
good side (ie fighting for the correct faction), and not always being on
the run from the authories (unless you count the enemy faction).<

That's what it said in the designer's notes, IIRC.

>TNE was just an extention of this by saving civilisation from the evil
hords of the galaxy, ie TED's and viruses, but with a jar head outlook.<

I always thought of this as "Twilight 2000 in Space" because not only the
rules, but the basic campaign premise (rebuild shattered civilisation and
deal roughly with warlords - err, sorry, TEDs - using mainly military
means)
were the same. No offence, TNE lovers everywhere... :)

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 17:44:19 +0800 (WST)
From: skribe <skribe@amber.com.au>
Subject: Re: Spaceways Diary 006-1120

On 03-Jun-98 Richard Hough wrote:

> Obviously these highly paid science fiction writers and directors know
> something I don't because I have seen over a half-dozen "asteroid targets
> Earth while protagonists fall in love" features and never never NEVER have
> the Authorities tried to nudge the asteroid away from a direct collision.
> Probably for good reason too, since the closing scene is usually our two
> lovers kissing while the asteroid goes up like fireworks, leaving only a
> tiny fraction of the original asteroid's mass to hit important tourist
> sites.

It all depends on how big the asteroid is and how long you have before it
hits.  The closer and bigger the asteroid is the more powerful `force' you
need to move it sufficiently to stop its orbital path from intersecting with
the planet.  Sometimes moving that much mass in a certain amount of time is
just impossible.

The `blowing it up' option has two possible effects.  The blast can move the
asteroid sufficiently so that `misses' (as above) and/or it can break it up
into pieces that will either burn up in the atmosphere, do less damage when it
hits, and/or spread the damage out over a larger area.

Given current tech there's little we can do unless we get something like a
30-50 year warning.  Even then, moving something 1km or larger will involve
leading edge technologies and likely mean sending humans further into
space than we have ever been in order give us enough time.  It will also
likely be a one way trip for those involved.  

Even finding something as large as a 1km asteroid that's orbit will cause it
to hit our planet with current tech is relatively difficult.  There are only a
small number of scientists working on it with very limited resources.  It
could take 30 years to plot all the 5km asteroids that might intersect us
given the current budget.  

I heard the other day that if the mapping project had the budget of the movie
Deep Impact (50 million US, I believe), it could be done within a few years. 
But its not sexy enough to get those sorts of funds.  Instead we get stuff
like Clementine 2 which has a budget of $120 million US that is designed to
test if we can in fact target and shoot an asteroid.  The info I have on it
suggests its going to be launched in mid 98, does anybody know if that's
still the case?

Basically, until we've finished mapping we could be hit at any time without
warning but once the mapping is done we might just be able to shoot at it
with our sexy weapon systems. Whether that does any good we have yet to see. 

Six billion inquiring minds want to know.

- ---
skribe <skribe@amber.com.au>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 03:16:47 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)
...
>>   The issue then becomes why a society with clear economic and security
>> concerns would decline to use the most effective (and cost-efficient)
>> mechanisms available to them.
>
>Well, I don't find your proposals the most cost-effecient.  I

- - Inspecting ships at ports is very expensive? 
- - Using already existing assets for patrols?
- - Registering ship specifics and ownership?
- - Low levels of random inspections by patrol vessels?
- - Using (non-tamperproof) transponders to track ship movements.
- - Reviewing ship movements for anomalous behaviour (INI).

>see significant costs associated with most, if not all, of the

  The ones not involving military-type patrol ships don't seem genuinely
expensive, and probably the most cost-effective ones I can imagine.

>proposals I've seen for enhancing security by restricting
>or regulating trade (esp. if done in a way that would have
>a real impact.)  (for reasons whe have debated).  I find
>these debatable since I think that other less costly
>methods would be sufficient to reduce piracy to an
>acceptable level.

  IIRC, minimal combat vessel presence, or none in some cases, no
meaningfully useful ship registry data, no effort to track personnel
of any sort, including passenger manifests (again, forget piracy and
just go a-slavin' - they even pay to board!), no effort to confirm
ship ID's (and no real way of doing so), and no interest in checking
the uncollected movement data for anomalies?

  I may not agree with too much of Mr. Smiths views on piracy, but
I might be interested to hear his views on the correct version of
your internal security system.

...
>So would I.  Am saying that rather than draconian and
>probably ineffective measures, they would use more
>moderate internal measures along with external agents.

  Draconian? If you'd like, we could have a thread on draconian measures :>

  Obviously we need to discuss and define reasonable and effective
measures in greater detail. What level of inspections would you
propose for a system of more moderate internal measures?

...
>It doesn't.  I don't see how this addresses the point (perhaps
>I am missing something).  To stop nukes by regulating trade

  If control at source is easy enough, then it works. Are there
Imperial inspectors on-site, or do local gov'ts handle this?

>would require extreme measures and probably wouldn't work
>anyway.  You would need to stop every, or almost every, ship
>and do an intrusive search, but even that could be circumvented

  As I described it further down, you wouldn't stop and search anything
like every vessel, nor am I sure that circumvention is a trivial task.

>by motivated agente (the kind that would be able to steal
>a nuke in the first place).  Even that would only stop such
...

  Yep. OC, we've go the potential problem of pirates with Seekers
mining their own fissionable, and smugglers bringing them in from
non-compliant jurisdictions.

>The question about depots is a valid one, but the Imperium,
>to exist as it does, must have some sort of border 
>control.  In any case, the use of fuel depots to
>get around border inspections could also be used to
>get around ship inspections, so that wouldn't solve

  Drop tanks (if allowed) and a single fuel depot can get a J-4
smuggler 8 parsecs across the border to a rendezvous with agents
operating a trader with collapsible tanks. At this point the lack
of a meaningful ship registry allows the vessel to move as it will.

  A ship tracking and port inspection (plus some random
inspections) system will detect regular aberrant traffic patterns,
allowing such designated vessels to be subjected to detailed
investigation. However, this is clearly well beyond the scope
of this thread. I'd be happy to separate it out if you're interested.

...
>the problem.  Nuke from domestic sources are easier
>to control at the source.

  A number of people have expressed concern about the technical
accuracy of that statement. IYTU, I'll happily concede the point.  

...
>The problem is that if you want to stop terrorists from
>moving nukes, inspecting one in very 100 (or even one
>in 10) ships isn't going to work.

  Correct. I don't think the transit of nukes can be reliably
stopped, except by physical inspection at starports (ships not
using the facility wouldn't be searched, unless randomly tagged
for such by a patrol vessel), IMTU.

>>   How do you plan to shield your nukes?
>
>Lead always work well (and they aren't so big they need
>that much of it).  However, the fact is that starship
>travel like in Traveller is dependant on the availability
>of lightweight radiation shielding to protect ships from 
>radiation.  Finally, even it you didn't have physical
>shielding, you could use neuclear dampers to stop the
>decay of radiactives until you are ready to use them.

  Nuclear dampers are neither cheap (TL 13+, MCr 1+ from Striker I)
nor easily available (after all, they make playing with nuclear
weapons much easier), presumably.

  AFAIK, neither of these is going to stop a geiger counter from
screaming when an inspection plays a damper across your ship and
the material starts shedding particles (I realize that someone
mentioned this a few months ago re: cargo/nuke inspections; I forget
who - from B:4 Mercenary, IIRC).

>> >I don't beleive cursory inspections are even going to come
>> >close to stoping the movement of nukes.
>
>>   If you have a 5% chance of being searched and illegal nukes being
>> found, what penalty will be enough to make you not even consider the
>> risk?
>
>None.  You are talking terrorists and enemy agents who are already
>risking life and death.  If the Red Guard had only a 5% chance
>of failure in nuking Washington it would be radioactive pit.

  No, Mr. Summers, I'm not talking about "terrorists and enemy agents
who are already risking life and death." As indicated in the section
of my response that you snipped, I was referring to smugglers - the
people who move illegal goods for economic gain. I've reposted the
paragraph complete following if you have any relevant questions. If
the original wasn't clear enough, my apologies.

>  If you have a 5% chance of being searched and illegal nukes being
>found, what penalty will be enough to make you not even consider the
>risk? The vast majority of smugglers can be deterred with some variant
>of that calculation.

...
>You must have missed something.  Control of the _sources_
>of nukes, rather than catching them being moved through
>interstellar space, is what I cam advocating.

  OK. What about the porousity of the frontier? I'll grant your
position about controlling the sources of nukes IYTU.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #549
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Wednesday, June 3 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 550



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

The sort of people who become Pirates
Re: CD-ROM?
Re: Hijacking summation?
Re: Piracy now and in the Traveller universe
RE: The sort of people who become Pirates
Re: Ship and trade economics (was something else being done to death
Re: Hijacking summation?
BITS - LICENSE RENEWED WITH MARC MILLER
Re: CD-ROM?
Re: Spaceways Diary 006-1120
Re: OT: 'High Crusade' movie
Re: Spaceways Diary 006-1120
Re: Spaceways Diary 006-1120
Re: Plot Device/Blowing up ships
Piracy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 02:32:28 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: The sort of people who become Pirates

I think that the Russians in the story below are the sort of people who
become pirates in Traveller.

1997 Darwin Awards -- Part II

Earlier this year, the dazed crew of a Japanese trawler were plucked out
of the Sea of Japan clinging to the wreckage of their sunken ship. Their
rescue, however, was followed by immediate imprisonment once authorities
questioned the sailors on their ship's loss.  To a man they claimed that
a cow, falling out of a clear blue sky, had struck the trawler
amidships, shattering its hull and sinking the vessel within minutes. 
They remained in prison for several weeks,until the Russian Air Force
reluctantly informed Japanese authorities that the crew of one of its
cargo planes had apparently stolen a cow wandering at the edge of a
Siberian airfield, forced the cow into the plane's hold and hastily
taken off for home.  Unprepared for live cargo, the Russian crew was
ill-equipped to manage a now rampaging cow within its hold.  To save the
aircraft and themselves, they shoved the animal out of the cargohold as
they crossed the Sea of Japan at an altitude of 30,000 feet.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 04:44:54 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: CD-ROM?

This is the CD with software and HIWG files, or the project with things like
the little black books on it?

>	Cost was $15 for U.S. orders, $10 for HIWG members (add another $2 for S&H
>right now, postage costs have been a bit higher than expected right now).
>Payment preferred is by Money Order. And please allow 4-6 weeks for delivery
>:) (only reason for that is I need to disassemble my computer to swap some
>boards).
>	Send payment to:
>	Bryan Borich
>	3890 50th street
>	San Diego, CA 92105-3005

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 05:06:32 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Hijacking summation?

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Hijacking summation?
...
>up on.  This is my last post on whether travel by
>jump stations would make highjacking impossible.]

  Unfortunate that this thread wasn't about that, not when it started
three weeks ago, and I don't believe since either. More perhaps about how
difficult it would be under those conditions. It might be easier to
communicate if you dropped the word "impossible" from your attributions
of others meanings unless they used it themselves in context.

...
>>   Being on a known schedule in a heavy traffic system very strongly
>> implies that there are other scheduled trips.
>
>But not that those schedule match up well with yours.  And
>even then you have the issue of less heavily trafficed
>systems.

  I'm conceding the possibility in lower trafficked systems.
However, given a 3-5 day stopover, I don't see yet that it's
at all likely in any system that would meaningfully be called
"medium", let alone "high" traffic. Obviously we need benchmarks
from one of the various traffic analyses out there.

...
>Of course that means that when they take the inspector
>and ask him to pretend everything is alright he will
>have more motive to comply since security is just going
>to shot and let him die.

  Aren't the security guys going to be suspicious when the inspector
decides to take some vacation time to leave on the ship he's inspecting,
or what? Mind you, once he gets back on board his own ship he might 
actually fink on those hardworking pirates and hijackers, unless he's
forgotten about the incident.

  OC, I've already suggested remote control drones (dare I say - robots :> )
to go with the human inspector. I forgot to consider a helmet camera/video
feed/radio, maybe a recorder.

  OTOH, imagine being hauled over for being in Zhodani space illegally;
boarded by a telepathic Intendant accompanied by plasma and laser armed
Combat Robots. Being a pirate at that point would be a Bad Idea, unless
they've got a use for you; "And the reprogramming will be minimal, too..."

>> The station being sufficiently
>> undergunned not to waste a small freighter effortlessly is
>> ridiculous; such a fuel station would serve many of the functions
>> of a high port, certainly enough to justify/require many thousands
>> of tons of fittings.
>
>Actualy, if you extrapolate drop tanks, they don't have to
>be that big.  The main working part would be a set
>if hoses that could be rapidly pulled away.  In any

  As pointed out previously on the list, a fuel station at the
100-D limit will naturally involve quite a bit of an establishment,
not the least being all the other ships that use the facility. OC, add
passenger and cargo facilities for trans-shipping, shuttle facilities,
ship service capacity, admin, duty-free stores, etc. If there's enough
traffic for a jump-fuel-station then the above seems almost inevitable,
barring a strange traffic pattern (small quantities of bulk freighters).

>case, how says it must be a small freighter?

  Which brings us back to several interesting points:
i) how big can a pirate vessel be expected to be?
ii) how enormous a crime can they expect to pull off before they become
someone's annual maneuvers? 
iii) weren't these jump stations last seen as Imperial Navy auxiliary tankers
in your latest case for why the systems implementation would have been so swift
that its' lack of mention in MT would make the system itself uncanonical?
iv) if these non-TankerRon type stations couldn't beat up a little raider
(~500 Dt?) then how could they not be an immense strategic Achilles' heel?

...
>I don't.  I suggest that it will become unfashionable to
>spend money to make a crime impossible that are disproporionate
>to the losses to that crime.

  IIRC, this started relating to carrying insurance, so the economic
concern is paramount. However, the point was that from the insurance
and shipping business POV, reducing their costs and risks (not least
of being shot) by having the authorities bill the entire Imperiums'
tax base for a service they will be the primary bebeficiaries of is
going to be one of their main concerns year in and year out, until
they finally get something as close to what they want as possible.

"
>>>  The possibility is overlooked that such inspections might be demanded
>>>successfully by the shipping community from the government, and thus
>>>added to everyones tax bill (but under-represented on their own).
                                                                        "
...
>>   If the Imperium doesn't consider piracy and hijacking serious
>> crimes, then the Imperium is a farce and canon is meaningless.
>
>Just because a crime is serious, doesn't mean that 
>that society will try and wipe it out regardless of
>the cost.

  Good point. I'll keep that in mind. What about reasonable expense
and effort to reduce it to a very low level?

>The US does almost
>nothing to prevent serial murders from occuring.  This
>is because they are rare.  It is a serious crime, but it
>isn't seen as worth the kind of measures it would take
>to make a significant impact in its occurance.

  IIRC, the (WA) Green River killings task force was at least several
dozen persons at its' peak; this was clearly a serious effort to stop
the re-occurence of the event. Murder is notoriously difficult to deter
(given a specific culture), but it is one of the crimes that attracts
the greatest efforts to solve; we recently had a murder investigation
just up the valley that apparently involved ~60 officers at times, and 
likely cost well over half a million in real money ($US).

  Of course, that's only the US you're talking about. In aid of preventing
schoolyard massacres and the like most Western nations have very stringent
gun controls or are in the process of significantly tightening those rules
(Canada, UK; Australia?). If North Americans don't consider these incidents
to be worth the kind of measures it would take to make a significant impact
in its occurance, that would be a culturally based decision.

 < I believe at this point Anders should respond "Yanks in Space!" :) 

  FWIW, murder is one of the few crimes that has almost universally 
attracted serious sanctions - imprisonment or execution, outlawry,
volunteering as a human sacrifice (pre-Conquest America is so neat).
Both hijacking and piracy involve a very real risk of these charges
being tacked on, and the authorities aren't likely to care that you
consider that your victims resistance "forced" you to kill them.

>> The primary purpose of this state, and its claim to legitimacy,
>> is its ability to secure interstellar space for the peaceful and
>> unmolested use of its citizens.
>
>And the Imperium will _never_ eliminate all causes of criminal
>loss of life and property.  So, just like all societies, it
>will settle for reducing these to acceptable levels.

  Sure. Don't you think that using already extant and crewed patrol vessels
for internal security deployments will be viewed as reasonable?

...
>And people who have not spent every penny possible to prevent
>something bad from happening can still get insurance by simply
>paying a rate that covers the risks and profits. If that
>bad thing is unlikely, it is very easy for the money spent
>on preventing the bad thing to exceed the money saved in
>cheaper rates.

  Sure, the but if insurance is cheaply available then almost
everyone will have it, at which point it becomes elementary
for that business lobby to want inspections, not least to cut
down on self-assisted "piracy" losses.

>> >I think tracking them down later when they try and sell the
>> >ship would be be biggie?  So would shipboard security.  (Both
>> >anti hihack programs and making sure nobody caries weapons
>> >on board).
> 
>>   What you're suggesting is virtually impossible in your suggested
>> regulatory regime. Once a ship gets stolen by any means the ship is
>> seemingly home free, AFAI can tell.
>
>Here we don't agree.  But you haven't said why you think
>the way you do, so detailed rebuttle isn't possible.

  IIRC, ships IYTU don't have any reliable documentation of
owner, cargo, crew, or passengers. 

  Which of those sorts of records are considered relaible by law
enforcement IYTU, and why?

...
>etc.  That could make hijackings uncommon.  What I don't agree
>with is that hijacking would be impossible.

  Luckily, I agree. Not terribly easy either, though.

...
>Well, if they did what I said, they might not have
>been introduced.  But I'm not sure there is anything
>definative that says they are temperproof.

  I don't much like them either. As others have pointed out, the
Cymbeline chip based transponders were tamperproof, per Survival
Margin and other material.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 14:34:32 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Piracy now and in the Traveller universe

On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Scott Ellsworth wrote:

> At 02:58 PM 6/2/98 -0500, you wrote:
> 
> Yes, it does.  IMTU, starships are dropping a lot in price, which makes it
> feel more reasonable to me to have the fairly large and relatively
> cosmopolitan traffic that the background seems to assume.  With the current
> prices, those things are substantial investments - even a free trader is
> like a small modern office building, with all of the intendant looking
> around and curiosity that implies.   Further, a private yacht screams out
> "Forbes 100 list member."

We'll I don't really agree. How many on Earth today has a privat
multimillion dollar jet. In Norway I can think of 50 persons that can
easily afford this. (This number i horribly low, but I do this so I can
apply the number to the whole of earth) which means that 1e-5 of norways
population can afford it. On a world basis this means that you have 50000
people that can afford said jet (I still think this is a low number). Now
say that the average amount of citizens on worlds in the Imperium is 50
million (How is this figure?) times 11000 worlds (If I'm not mistaken)
which gives 5.5e11 people in the imperium. Using the same number that can
afford said jet we get ~1e6 people. Add in yachts owned by companies,
state officals and so on you see that there will be an awful many of these
ships out there.
 
> The argument I was making, albeit not well, was that the ships are so god
> awful expensive in Traveller that the marginal benefit of taking a ship,
> once disabled, is really, really high.  This also pushes up the cost of the
> shipping part of the bill for a finished good, and should lead to much
> higher cost per cubic meter cargoes.

Well compared to the average income of ~10000Cr its expensive, but I think
that the average income on Sylea or any other industrial high tech world
is propably a lot higher. There is a lot of dirt balls out there which
will have incomes in the 10 to 100Cr range to keep the average down.

> It also justifies those amazingly high CT salaries - the pilot is being
> paid something like seven times the average, and even a gunner is above the
> average by likely a standard deviation.  Thus, space folk coming to a
> planet look more like Asimov's spacers coming to visit than the typical
> band of roughnecks.  This is not bad, mind, and might be a fun universe,
> but it is a bit different than the typical traveller universe, where ships
> lie in dock unguarded, and space folk are lowborn scum more often than not.

As long as their coming to som low-tech high-pop world, but when they come
to Sylea their propably viewed as misfits that couldn't get anything else
to do. I think it's then more like sailors today. They have an average
income, and its only the special few who wants the job, unless your from a
low-tech, low income nation like the Phillipines. 

> 
> Scott

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 20:36:27 +0800 (WST)
From: skribe <skribe@amber.com.au>
Subject: RE: The sort of people who become Pirates

On 03-Jun-98 Peter Newman wrote:
> 1997 Darwin Awards -- Part II

Doesn't the Darwin awards require the person/people to die?
- ---
skribe <skribe@amber.com.au>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 14:38:04 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Ship and trade economics (was something else being done to death

On Tue, 2 Jun 1998 edjs@mindlink.net wrote:

> > From:          eris@pen.net
> > Date:          Tue, 02 Jun 98 14:58:46 -0500
> > 
> > Doesn't this argue that the current cost of Traveller ships is WAY too
> > high? 
> 
> IMHO, yes (for civilian ships).  IMTU, I'm toying with having civilian ships 
> cost around 25% of the book price, but increase the cost of military hardware 
> so that the costs of military ships do not drop.

What is the cost of a twenty year old free trader in the OTU. I should be
around 10 to 25% of the original price if you ask me. And the way I see
the Imperium it is full of these old patched up traders plowing the
spacelanes. 

> Edward Swatschek

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 20:40:25 +0800 (WST)
From: skribe <skribe@amber.com.au>
Subject: Re: Hijacking summation?

On 03-Jun-98 Steven Hudson wrote:
>  In aid of preventing
> schoolyard massacres and the like most Western nations have very stringent
> gun controls or are in the process of significantly tightening those rules
> (Canada, UK; Australia?).

Australia has recently tightened gun laws as well, restricting the types of
weapons that can be owned as well as a national gun register.  Whether this
will work is yet to be seen.
- ---
skribe <skribe@amber.com.au>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 13:38:43 +0100
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: BITS - LICENSE RENEWED WITH MARC MILLER

I just thought I'd let you all know that Marc Miller has now
renewed/revalidated the license for British Isles Traveller Support (BITS)
to continue publishing Traveller supplements.

It has taken a few months of discussions, but we have finally come to a
mutual agreement that will lead to BITS supplements providing direct
support for the new T4.1 in 1999. We will be working closely with Marc on
the new Traveller to promote and support it, in addition to our current
promotional work for T4 (and all other eras of Traveller). We will also be
supporting the launch of GURPS Traveller - BITS members are writing the
first sourcebook for SJG.

Marc has some very clear views on the manner in which future Traveller
products should be produced and we will be taking these on board both for
our BITS products and for future T4.1 products which we (the subset of BITS
and our US colleagues who form the CORE Traveller Development Group) hope
to write for Marc.

Apologies to Bryan Borich (and the others I've been liaising with in the
US) for the delay in getting back to you but, in addition to delays with
Marc, my father died a few weeks back (after a long fight against cancer)
and thus I've had more pressing matters to attend to. I've sent you all a
separate e-mail on this subject.

I am still pursuing US distribution for our products but this is taking far
longer than anticipated due to a change of staff at our intended distributor.

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 07:02:16 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM?

Steven Hudson wrote:
> 
> This is the CD with software and HIWG files, or the project with things like
> the little black books on it?

This is the one with software, HWIG, TML and X-Boat archives and lots of other
stuff. The CD with the LBB's is still a project in the early stages (scanning,
correcting and proofing stuff) and is a _far_ more ambitious project.

Still, the TML CD has enough stuff on it to delight, amaze, and astound for
days and weeks.

Plus, how else can you easily grep, in the privacy of your own home, how often
the word 'Virus' has been written on the TML, and compare it to, say 'Piracy',
'Near-C' or 'Feudal Technocracy'? ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 10:16:11 -0400
From: fabio@darksiderpg.ml.org (Fabio Mascarenhas)
Subject: Re: Spaceways Diary 006-1120

Richard Hough <richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com> wrote:
>I don't get it. The first time I heard of the idea of an asteroid hitting
>the Earth or whatever, I thought the obvious thing to do was to land a
>great honkin' big rocket on it and perturb its trajectory enough so it
>misses Earth. Yet every science-fiction movie, TV special, book, and game
>that includes this scenario always has the Authorities try to blow up the
>asteroid. I even seem to recall Ronnie Reagan justifying a ballistic
>missile buildup so that they could be used for just this purpose.

There's an objection to your idea. Our chemical rockets don't have
nearly enough endurance to do it. Asteroids are big, and massive.
Something like this would have to be done from far away (while the
asteroid is still many months from Earth) and with a high-efficiency
engine like a fusion engine.

>Someone, please correct me if I'm wrong, but even if you were somehow able
>to blow an asteroid up (with lasers? What are they made of... nitro?) would
>the centre of mass of the fragments not follow the same trajectory as the
>original asteroid... that is, straight for Redmond, WA?

Yep.

>I think an earlier poster talking about this claimed the debris blown off
>the asteroid would provide thrust or something. I don't buy it. I have seen
>buildings demolished with explosives, and they do not undergo thrust. The
>walls and such get stirred around a bit but end up in the same geographical
>location as they started, I have never seen a demolished building lift off
>and file a flight plan to the nearest sanitary landfill site.

The explosion would give thrust, yes. You don't see it much in building
demolition because of the conditions (you put the charges under the
building, there's gravity and air resistance etc.). But in an asteroid
in space if the remaining pieces had more momentum than their gravity
could fight off they would separate nicely.

>Obviously these highly paid science fiction writers and directors know
>something I don't because I have seen over a half-dozen "asteroid targets
>Earth while protagonists fall in love" features and never never NEVER have
>the Authorities tried to nudge the asteroid away from a direct collision.
>Probably for good reason too, since the closing scene is usually our two
>lovers kissing while the asteroid goes up like fireworks, leaving only a
>tiny fraction of the original asteroid's mass to hit important tourist
>sites.

Obviously here things get more complicated: blowing up big asteroids to
tiny little bits is really difficult, even with nuclear explosions. No
way it could be done even with the nukes we have today. Better chance
we have would to try to break it in two pieces and hope the asteroid
has any rotation (the momentum of the rotation plus the explosion would
eventually separate the two pieces enough). Would have to be done
really from afar, though.

Fabio
fabio@darksiderpg.ml.org

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 07:20:26 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: OT: 'High Crusade' movie

The company's name on the box is Raven Films. I'll try and rent it this
weekend. I suspect that it's been ressurected to take advantage of Roland and
Uwe Emmerich's names, since they did ID4...

I posted a link to the internet movie database about it...there's also an
outfit on the web that has a huge videography, they rent _and_ sell
movies...If I can remember what the %@$!# name is I'll post it.

But if _Blockbuster_ has it, it can't be too hard to find ;-)
 
Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
> 
> No, but if you get the studio who filmed it, and the actors in it (so I can
> ask my distributor to find it); please post it!
> 
> Seth

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 07:34:17 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Spaceways Diary 006-1120

Richard Hough wrote:

> I think an earlier poster talking about this claimed the debris blown off
> the asteroid would provide thrust or something. I don't buy it. I have seen
> buildings demolished with explosives, and they do not undergo thrust. The
> walls and such get stirred around a bit but end up in the same geographical
> location as they started, I have never seen a demolished building lift off
> and file a flight plan to the nearest sanitary landfill site.
> 

Ok, let's slow down a bit here...First, unless the demolition crew is
unforgivably incompetent, buildings are not _ex_ploded, but _im_ploded. I just
watched a show on TLC about one family, reputedly the best in the business,
and tracked them through one project. They spend _months_ making sure that
that building stays put when the charges go off.

Yes, the debris flying off an asteroid will provide thrust, per good ol'
Newton. Action-reaction, that sort of thing. The earlier we can track, id and
get to the asteroid, the less we actually have to nudge it to make it miss us.
The first time around, at least...depending on the period and what we do to
it's orbit, we might have to nudge it the next time it comes around, too.

Anyone know what the periods of the earth crossing bodies are? Are they
cometary type orbits oe what? Do we even have a clue?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:55:21 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Spaceways Diary 006-1120

On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Richard Hough wrote:
> 
> Anyone know what the periods of the earth crossing bodies are? Are they
> cometary type orbits oe what? Do we even have a clue?
> 

Take a look at

http://cfa-www.harvard.edu/iau/lists/Dangerous.html

the Potentially-Hazardous Asteroids (PHAs) list of the Minor Planetary
Center. From what I see they have a semi major axis of 0.8 to 2.7 AU which
indicates a periode of 0.7 to 4.4 years. Most of these have a low
inclination to so they are simple asteroids with orbits much like earths
although with a much higher eccentricity.    


Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 15:16:17 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Plot Device/Blowing up ships

[Catching up...]
Rob Day writes:
>So, how can a large explosion be produced, preferably destroying the
>ship and a decent chunk of the highport, which will still look like an
>accident?
OK, first the explosion.
Hydrogen explosions have been done to death. I won't restate what everyone
else has.
But, there is another explosive substance that is frequently found moving
in and out of starports and is even on the trade tables: flour. All you
need to do is to create a particulate cloud of flour and an ignition
source. Ever make a flour cannon? Apparently silos go up in a most
dangerous way. The "bomb" would work best on a port where the outside
pressure is lower than, say, what the ship is normally pressurised at. A
small device just needs to rupture enough of the flour containers and the
airlock. The venting air carries it out into as large a cloud as necessary.
A secondary device then (possibly the local fly zapper) sets the whole
thing off.
People have commented on the safeties surrounding ship weaponry. True.
There are a lot of safeties on your computer to prevent the hard disk from
being scrubbed. But nasty evil people write viruses. The "bomb" could be a
targeted virus introduced to it over its comms links. The ship could "just
happened" not to have installed the local anti-virus update specific to
this world.

Now, the damage.
People have commented that a hydrogen explosion is unlikely to cause enough
direct damage to take out a ship. I suspect flour explosions are even
weaker. Consider, through, secondary damage. If the ship is in a large,
hanger like facility, the explosion is likely to blow the roof off, and,
well, it has to fall back down again.
On the other side, there area lot of high(ish)-pop, low surface area
worlds. I think that underground constructions is going to be very, very
common. If the ship is in a hanger (not the landing pad) on such a world,
it is likely that beneath it will be warehousing, storage bays, etc, etc.
If there is an explosion, the floor is not unlikely to be ruptured and
falling that distance is likely to take a ship out of action (at least for
a while).
If the ship is in an orbital facility, there is always the great fun of
uncontrolled re-entry. If an explosion just blows it out of its docking
gay, it may easily be thrown in a direction that is likely to result in an
immanently unstable orbit. Space stations are likely to be in as low an
orbit as possible...

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 11:16:51 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Piracy

Ian Whitchurch wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>It's hard to take someone else's ship with you after you board it.
>Manpower problems (you can't make a ship jump without 
>a navigator on board), frequent lack of fuel aboard the target vessel,
>and the ability of many shipmasters to lock out all but the most
>professional hackers from their computers tend to remove the ship
>itself as a target. Also, selling a ship requires some pretty specialized
>contacts due to the long paper trail involved - some pirate crews can
>do it, most find it too involved and more dangerous than taking the ship
>in the first place.
>

I'm confused. Why not bring along a spare navigator, as well as a Far
Trader with a full load of collapsible tankage to refuel captured ships.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
IMTU Pirates seldom have competent Navigators to spare - or
competent Engineers, Medics, or even Pilots. Most people with 
such skills can get (and keep) less risky jobs that pay better.

Also, as I said a couple of times, the skillset and contacts needed to 
sell a stolen ship for profit was far rarer IMTU than what you needed
to sell stolen cargos. You could even have navigation computers
on your target ship that won't go anywhere _except_ the route
they've been subsidized for, without some heavy-duty and time
consuming hacking. (Such computers, and locks on computers that
need to be reset by bank representatives, have been mentioned
in JTAS sources, so aren't only IMTU.)

As for bringing a spare Far Trader with you, if you had a spare Far Trader,
why not (by your thinking) just sell it and retire? :)

Ian again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>snip>>>>>>>
>The "average" pirate will be a small (100 to 400 ton) jump-capable
>vessel. Type S Scout ships are minimally capable for this task,
>but are popular because they are ubiquitous, often travel with no
>flight plans, have oddball paper trails as a normal course of business
>and (IMTU at least) can be kept barely functional without seeing a
>class-B startport for years - though at a cost of steadily increasing
>field maintenance efforts.

These vessels will be a 50/50 proposition against most armed merchentmen.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As I said, "minimally capable". Ships like this might specialize in
threatening mining workshacks, pouncing trasport shuttles
or other sorts of "chicken stealing" - or might (due to their
innocuous nature) be the member of the pirate clan that _does_
go to legitimate ports for spares or intelligence.

Ian again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>snip>>>>
Does the same thing happen when a Merchant Captain decides to see if the
450 MJ Famile Spofulam battery-powered laser was a good investment ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sure...you takes your cruise and you takes your chances. 

Ian again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If pirate ships are exempted from annual maintainence at type B starports,
are merchant ships ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"I'm sorry _Beowulf_, your Imperial Safety Inspection is 6 months out
of date...and a cursory inspection of your field repairs tells me you're
going to have to pull that entire Grid Interface before we can recertify
you. What, works fine? That's what they all say. You're not cleared
to take off into our traffic pattern with this hunk of junk...."

Again, the difference between what's legal & sensible and what's possible.
Dangerous and unreliable field maintenance can push the worst penalties
of missed maintenance into the future for a long time, but the ship will pay
a price of decreased operational life (that no merchant would do to his
spacegoing capital investment), poorer reliability and even degraded
performance.

Things many pirates won't give a damn about. They'll get that monster
haul of a big score next week and retire, right? Well, OK, maybe the 
week after that...or the next one...

Ian again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hanging out in places patrols dont go will elad to ships going there being
better-armed than usual. You can do a lot with 30 dtons of cargo bay
dedicated to missiles, sub-craft and battery-powered lasers.

Waiting for Godot, sorry, minor misjumps to happen where you happen to be
waiting sounds like a good recepie for many many boring months in space,
probably ended by a patrolling vessel.

If they can only afford 2 patrol craft, then they wont have much in
planetary defenses. Just loot the planet.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
In order:

You don't carry a military load-out unless you're a licensed mercenary
(or a pirate). An honest merchant isn't getting 3 10-ton fighters into
his cargo bay unless he does some dishonest things.

Jump drive is precise on a Parsec scale, not a planetary one. Space is
big, traffic volume is high enough, there will soon be someone who jumps
in within your intercept cone but outside what you think are the intercept
cones of the local gendarmes. Your "hanging out" is probably you jumping
in to the outer system and slowly making your way sunward, like a 
low-G merchant on an incoming transit after a poor jump-exit. If a patrol
craft decides to light all candles and come storming out after every
sub-1000tn tramp that jumps short, they will be one out-of-position and
worn out patrol ship 90% of the time.

And I'm sure that, barring planetary defenses, a Pirate would _love_ 
to loot a planet, even a low-tech one. It's just easier to defeat
a patrol cruiser in open space (you can see where it is, for example)
than it is to defeat that planetary missile base that keeps throwing
missiles at you from the other side of the planet - especially if your
loadout is laser-based.

Ian again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hmmm, did you see the FS modified Tracey class - the one with the spinal
Meson Gun ?

One of those things at 10 000km could really wreck the pirate's day, and if
using purely passive sensors the pirate will never know what is about to
hit them ... apart perhaps from the manic giggling coming from Ditzie at
the Main Gunnery station.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You're talking a starmerc or military Q-ship here - either of which,
encountered unawares, would ruin a pirate's day. Meson guns and
particle accelerators, even bay weapons in general are military-grade
weapons with military-grade restrictions IMTU. I'm sure that many
pirate careers are ended by encounters with just such a "gee it
sure _looked_ like a Fat Trader!" ship.

Ian again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'm inclined to think expendable gunsels are one of your lesser problems -
go to some TL 5-8 worlds and recruit ex-military types.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sure. Vacc suit training isn't that tough, and an SMG is an SMG.
There is problems with recruiting if you never or seldom go to a
legal port, and I see many Pirate crews as being pretty close 
knit - they all mutinied at once or somesuch. Life Support problems
and space problems on the pirate ship will also come into play to
reduce pirate crew sizes...much as we all like the image of a horde
of wild-eyed buccaneers.... ;)

Ian again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If you have this level of cooperation, why not take the whole shebang ??? I
just dont get this resistance to leave the single most valuable thing there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Because the captain used the twenty minutes of interception time to
put a two-week timelock on his ship's nav programs. Because you know
that the insurance company will write off the cargo, but send a flotilla
of starmercs after the ship. Because the pirate captain doesn't trust
_anyone_ with the navigation coordinates of the Pirate base but himself.
Because you'd need the cooperation of the crew for an entire week get the
ship safely in and out of jump, and have to give said crewman enough
computer access that she could activate all the anti-hijack stuff against
the two or three guards you could spare as a prize crew.

You jump your Corsair away. The Far Trader you took jumps away as
well, with all the valuable cargo aboard - and it never shows up at your
pirate base. Did your prize crew get greedy? Did the Far Trader do 
a Jump-Zero, and is sitting there in the original system surrounded
by patrol craft (with your prize crew aboard willing to trade their lives
for the location of your base)?

The resistance to taking the most valuable thing (the ship) is simple:
a PC crew can get taken by pirates without ending the campaign if
pirates are satisfied with cargo. If they steal ships as a matter of course,
the campaign ends as the PC's are all murdered. IMTU I see enough
logical underpinnings to allow "take the cargo not the ship" piracy
to exist, so there is a nice match between story construction and
game universe consistency.


Walt Smith

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #550
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Traveller-digest       Wednesday, June 3 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 551



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Ship and trade economics
Re: Ship and trade economics
Re: Piracy
Re: Ship and trade economics
Re: Piracy
Traveller-digest V1998 #550
Re: Piracy
Re: Piracy
Re: Piracy
Re: The Imperial Nobility (was Imperial Navy taskings) 
Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")
Re: 'High Crusade' movie
Human Identification (was Piracy)
Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #549

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 18:04:51 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Ship and trade economics

Tommy Grav writes:

>What is the cost of a twenty year old free trader in the OTU.

According to a Q&A in a _Travellers' Digest_ a 40 year old starship is
worth about 20 or 25% of original price. That would be MT rules. TNE
assigns a 'wear value" to ships (and other equipment) and specifically
state that the value of an item with a wear value of X is 1/X of
original price. I _think_ ships start out with a wear value equal to
the number of decades it is old, but I may be remembering a house rule
of my own here.

>I should be around 10 to 25% of the original price if you ask me. And
>the way I see the Imperium it is full of these old patched up traders
>plowing the spacelanes.

Sure, but someone has to build them in the first place, right? So there
have to be ways a new ship can make a living, because otherwise there
wouldn't be built any new ones in the first place. Also, the number of
old ships must be related to the number of new ships and they must be
inferior to new ships in some way, because otherwise no one who has
bought a new ship in the first place will be stupid enough to sell it
(or if they did, it would not be at a lower price). As the rules are
now (TNE rules excepted), a 40 year old ship is a wonderful investment.
Bank payments are one quarter those of a new ship but incomes are the
same.
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 18:28:53 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Ship and trade economics

On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> Tommy Grav writes:
> 
> >I should be around 10 to 25% of the original price if you ask me. And
> >the way I see the Imperium it is full of these old patched up traders
> >plowing the spacelanes.
> 
> Sure, but someone has to build them in the first place, right? So there
> have to be ways a new ship can make a living, because otherwise there
> wouldn't be built any new ones in the first place. Also, the number of
> old ships must be related to the number of new ships and they must be
> inferior to new ships in some way, because otherwise no one who has
> bought a new ship in the first place will be stupid enough to sell it
> (or if they did, it would not be at a lower price). As the rules are
> now (TNE rules excepted), a 40 year old ship is a wonderful investment.
> Bank payments are one quarter those of a new ship but incomes are the
> same.

But you are missing one obvouis point. Apperance. It will be much easier
for New Trade Inc, with their reliable new Free Trader to haul important
cargo that needs to be at their destination on time, than for Joe Trader
with his 35 year old freighter which ofen has problems making him sit
dirtside or in orbit two, three days fixing it.

This is why companies today fase out their old cars/planes and buy new.
Apperance and PR are important factors in getting business.

Another point is of course that the economical rules in Traveller are
silly at best. But that isn't my floor :-) 

>       Hans Rancke

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 18:42:11 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Piracy

On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Steven Hudson wrote:

> Hello,

>   Actually I view it as a state institution (it certainly is not a nation)
> whose raison d`etre is to provide a security umbrella (external and internal)
> for the peaceful interaction of its member worlds. I'd be interested in any
> GDW text that contradicts that.

But the question is how effective they really are at this. My view is that
it will be more propaganda and less action from a government like this.
"We do this and that for you, so pay you taxes", while most of the money
is used for apperance. The nobility needs their estates, servants, yachts,
summerhouses, wintercastles. The navy needs the state of the art ships,
cermonial uniforms. Parades, shows, displays eat money like crazy, leaving
less for the actual security concerns. 

>   My point is that while the obvious purpose of the IN is external security
> (mainly enforced by strategic reserves, including colonial forces), that it
> is impossible to divest the internal role from the external, unrealistic to
> ignore the aspect of political legitimacy, and illogical to ignore the
> peacetime deployments of the war readiness assets of the barious navies.

But remember that the frontier and edges of the Imperium is only a
bufferzone to keep enemies away from the capitals. That the Zhodani,
Aslan, Varg, SW all wreck havoc here is not really that big an issue.
"Lets send some ships to show our presence but don't get anything damaged
will you."

> >worlds, where the individual worlds are more interested in their own
> >security than that of their neighbours. "There was another pirate attack
> >on a vessel in the system three parsec rimwards. Blahh, thats just what
> >they deserve. They should learn from us, we never had that problem
> >here"-attitude.
> 
>   This may very well be an appropriate attitude for them to take, but as
> the debates on the logistics of piracy clearly indicate, any world that
> allows a nearby safe haven (or pirate unit) to exist when it could easily
> affect that situation is clearly harming its' own commercial and security
> interests, even ignoring potential Imperial concern.

Not if the pirates come to this world as traders of goods. Pirates will be
the poeple that see to trade to worlds that no one else wants to trade
with, because it really isn't worth it. Joe Portmaster isn't really going
to care who comes in when they supplie him with the Rolex gold watch he
wanted to give to his wife for her 40th birthday. Or that Dress-Her-Up
doll that his daughter has wanted for so long. And that last computer shut
down really messed up the dockingpapers, so "Sorry Imperial Inspectors,
but we lost much data. But I don't remember any ships with that
description."  

> 
>         Yours truly,
>                 Steven Hudson
> 
> 

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 10:23:56 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Ship and trade economics

Tommy Grav wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> 
> > Tommy Grav writes:

> This is why companies today fase out their old cars/planes and buy new.
> Apperance and PR are important factors in getting business.

Actually, business amortization rules, increased maintainence
costs/decreased reliability, and increasingly, operation efficiency are
the major reason that most companies phase out old vehicles, especially
since we're talking things on the order of 747's and suchlike.

Smaller vehicles often simply wear out.

A fresh coat of paint will fix the appearance problem.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 18:57:08 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Piracy

Walter Smith writes:

>Ian Whitchurch wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>It's hard to take someone else's ship with you after you board it.
>>
>>[...]
>>
>I'm confused. Why not bring along a spare navigator, as well as a Far
>Trader with a full load of collapsible tankage to refuel captured ships.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I don't have a problem accepting that you can make it difficult to make
the victim jump out of the system (Not impossible; if you have time enough,
you can do it. There is at least one canonical example of two ships being
linked so that the computer of one can run the jump drive of the other).
The 'computer lock-out' explanation works for me.

>As for bringing a spare Far Trader with you, if you had a spare Far Trader,
>why not (by your thinking) just sell it and retire? :)

Actually, if you (or any of the pro-piracy people) could demonstrate that
you can make more money by a pirate operation than by legitimate trading/
freighting, then I'd cheerfully accept the use of an extra ship. It's not
the high cost of setting up a pirate operation in itself that I object to
(though it does mean that the usual gaggle of impromptu attempts we see
with a lot of other types of crime would not exist); it's that the high
cost makes it difficult to recoup the investment.
 
>Jump drive is precise on a Parsec scale, not a planetary one.

This is just not true if you are talking about the OTU. Jump drive IS
very precise. Re-read the descriptions of a typical jump. Check the
tables in _Imperial Encyclopedia_. Ships do jump in very close to the
jump limit.

>Space is big, traffic volume is high enough, there will soon be someone
>who jumps in within your intercept cone but outside what you think are
>the intercept cones of the local gendarmes.

This is a good example of the kind of argument that I regard as much too
vague. I happen to think you are wrong. But how can I argue against it,
except by just saying "Na-ah! Ain't so!", when you don't tell us how high
a traffic volume is high enough, what you mean by an intercept cone, and
how many SDBs you think a system with a high enough volume of traffic
would have? For example, a system that recieves, on an average, one ship
per day will have about 20 ships associated with it. If those are 400 T
merchants, then the systen is generating more than 70,000 dT of goods per
year. What population (or what economic strength) would you estimate the
system had? Said ships would have a value of... (I forget how much a 400 T
merchant costs from new; is it MCr100 or so?). Assuming a value of between
MCr25 and MCr100, you'd get an average value of MCr62,5 or a total value of
20 ships of MCr1250. What percentage of this figure do you think is
reasonable to spend on defenses? I once calculated that Al Morai spends
3% of its income on their route protectors. Does that sound reasonable?
If so, the system (or the merchants visiting the system) could be spending
MCr37,5/year on defenses. By TCS rules that comes to ships worth MCr375 in
all. And that volume of traffic gives your pirate one chance per day that
a ship will misjump and wind up closer to him than to a patrol ship. First
a ship has to misjump, for which the odds are zero if the ship is properly
maintained. Then it has to wind up close to where the pirate is "lurking".

>Your "hanging out" is probably you jumping in to the outer system

Which marks you as an oddity to begin with, unless you have (or can
pretend to have) legitimate business in the outer system.

>and slowly making your way sunward, like a low-G merchant on an incoming
>transit after a poor jump-exit.

Just how common do you believe poor jump exits are? But say you did. How
long will it take you to get to where the well-maintained merchants appear
and how close will you be before you are likely to be closer than a
patrol vessel? When you are that close, how long would it take for a patrol
vessel to reach you?

>If a patrol craft decides to light all candles and come storming out after
>every sub-1000tn tramp that jumps short, they will be one out-of-position
>and worn out patrol ship 90% of the time.

I ask again, how common do you believe poor jump exits to be? And how many
ships per day do you imagine makes for a high enough traffic volume?
Let's have some figures.

Also, how many of these slow approaches do you think a pirate can make
in a year, how big a chance do you think they have of getting a shot at a
victim each time they try it, how big a chance do you think they have
of making a capture and getting away with the cargo, and how much do you
think the average random cargo will be worth to them?

>And I'm sure that, barring planetary defenses, a Pirate would _love_ 
>to loot a planet, even a low-tech one. It's just easier to defeat
>a patrol cruiser in open space (you can see where it is, for example)

The bad thing about attacking a patrol cruiser from the pow of the
cost-concious pirate is that they have a tendency to fight back. That
means that even if you win, you'll propably wind up with some nasty
holes in your ship. So unless the prospective loot is worth more than
the expected damage, it's a losing proposition. And consider that a
single missile or shot can easily do millions of credits worth of
damage.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 13:12:16 -0400
From: Andy Slack <AndySlack@compuserve.com>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1998 #550

Message text written by Walter Smith:
>"I'm sorry _Beowulf_, your Imperial Safety Inspection is 6 months out
of date...and a cursory inspection of your field repairs tells me you're
going to have to pull that entire Grid Interface before we can recertify
you. What, works fine? That's what they all say. You're not cleared
to take off into our traffic pattern with this hunk of junk...."<

IMTU this works the same way as the UK MOT system (only more so!)
 - if you fail the test, the vehicle is not considered roadworthy
(spaceworthy) so has to be repaired before you can do
_anything_ with it. Naturally, this means the inspectors do their
damnedest to find something wrong. Then offer you a special
"one for the price of two" deal to make it spaceworthy again.

Naturally, this only applies to independents. The big corps have
enough influence to get reasonably fair testing.

Andy
(What? Cynical? _Moi?_)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 19:33:35 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Piracy

Thom Harris writes:

> Hans,
>     You didn't reply to the rest of my message so I'll quote it back to you.
> 
>"Don't get me
>wrong here, I still feel that Pirates are a weak sister to other careers
>available in the game.  There seems to be enough possibilities that it could
>become a viable career option if your Erol Flynn is all I'm saying.

If by Eroll Flynning you mean ignoring logical ramifications and just winging
it, then I agree with you 100%. In fact, that's the way I run my TU. But
viable in the sense that it makes sense, that I'd have to disagree with.

>I also believe, like you, that the encounters table is weighed much too
>heavily toward having a pirate attack than seems justified.  How do we
>fix that in CT, we don't, lets try for T4.1.  Aahhhh, wait a sec, that
>takes place back in year 0 so pirates can operate there effectively. 

Actually, I'm quite willing to give you an argument about that, only I'm
not nearly as sure that I'm right and even less sure that I could prove
it. But let me give you an example. Say that all merchant traffic goes
through one system that has, say, 5 gas giants. Say further that the
closest pirate haven is 50 parsecs away. Obviously the pirate has a very
short window of opportunity: he has to make 17 jumps to get to the
hunting ground and have only one or two weeks to catch his prey before
he has to go back to his home port. If only one or two merchants per
week goes through the system, the pirate's odds of choosing the right
gas giant to lurk by is so low that you may not even need _any_ patrol
ships to make piracy uneconomic. Or the authorities could patrol just
one of the gas giants and protect any number of ships with only a few
patrol ships. Or say that the pirate have is 4 jumps away but the pirate
cannot take the ship with him. That would mean that even if he was
absolutely sure of capturing a merchant when he reached the hunting
ground, he would have spent three months procuring one load of cargo
worth an average of Cr5000/dT, which wouldn't be enough to pay his
expenses. In that case enforcement wouldn't be necessary at all either.

Obviously things won't be quite that akward, but having gone over the
figures a lot of times, I feel that if pirates can steal ships, then
preventing even one loss is worth enough enforcement to deter them,
while if they can only take cargoes, they can't make money enough to
cover expenses. I'm talking about random cargoes, of course. If they
could intercept specific exceptionally valuable cargoes there might
be scope for them. But how could they do that?

>Oh well, I guess we're stuck with what we got.  I would add however,

>in CT it started a few years before the fringes were stable.  In the
>ensuing years there were at least two frontier wars with the Zho's.
>Hhhmmm, that makes about three - six years of a STABLE Empire so maybe,
>just maybe, CT's tables weren't off after all......."

Instability would seem to be a requirement for viable piracy, but I'm
not at all sure that it is sufficient. The main problem arise from the
fact that Traveller starships are expensive, but that armed ships are
not all that much more expensive than unarmed.

>I think that the CT time line was roughly 1090 - 1016.  Not only were there
>wars with the Zho's but also the Vargr incursions were taking place.

Ah. The Vargr have the same problem that other pirates have: They have to
steal more than they expend to steal it. And if that isn't enough, if they
grow too tiresome, the Imperium can treat their home ports the same way they
treat other systems that support pirates. The only power in that corner of
the universe that can provide a sanctuary is the Consulate. Besides, the
Vargr would at most be a problem in the coreward line of subsectors, not
the entire Spinward Marches.

>It's
>starting to seem that for the time period that the OTU is set in there was a
>great deal of strife and instability which would foment things like piracy,
>terrorists, star mercs et all. 

Well, how about providing me with a description of a pirate foray? Decide
what kind of ship you have, how you got it and what financial conditions
you have it under. Then tell me where in the Spinward Marches you start,
how you find a victim, how you catch it, what you do with it afterwards
and show me that you've made a profit.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:34:23 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy

At 1:18 AM -0400 6/3/98, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>If you take the whole ship, you either have to kill the crew
>>(which ups the importance of the crime) or you have to interact
>>with them (letting them get a good look at you).

>  So they get a good look at your vacc suit. So?

Including it's make and model and state or wear (similary to
analysing the state of a typewriter in a ransom note).  Also the
hear you, and see the inside of your ship (unless you expect
to sell the ship you took with them in it).  If my PC expected to
interact personally with NPCs and not give any clues about who
they are I would say no.

>>>Wouldn't the ship
>>>itself actually contain potentially lethal info after the encounter,
>>>and leaving it behind thus be more compromising?
>>
>>Like what?

>  All the sensor (/fire control) info acquired during the intercept
>(and battle if any), including camera or telescope work, particularly
>prior to docking or cargo transfer.

Yeah, maybe they might need to trash the computer data banks.  I
don't see them needing to take the whole ship.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:34:23 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy

At 1:18 AM -0400 6/3/98, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>If you take the whole ship, you either have to kill the crew
>>(which ups the importance of the crime) or you have to interact
>>with them (letting them get a good look at you).

>  So they get a good look at your vacc suit. So?

Including it's make and model and state or wear (similary to
analysing the state of a typewriter in a ransom note).  Also the
hear you, and see the inside of your ship (unless you expect
to sell the ship you took with them in it).  If my PC expected to
interact personally with NPCs and not give any clues about who
they are I would say no.

>>>Wouldn't the ship
>>>itself actually contain potentially lethal info after the encounter,
>>>and leaving it behind thus be more compromising?
>>
>>Like what?

>  All the sensor (/fire control) info acquired during the intercept
>(and battle if any), including camera or telescope work, particularly
>prior to docking or cargo transfer.

Yeah, maybe they might need to trash the computer data banks.  I
don't see them needing to take the whole ship.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 11:14:28 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: The Imperial Nobility (was Imperial Navy taskings) 

At 01:41 AM 6/3/98 -0400, you wrote:
>> Rebellion Sourcebook specifically mentioned that Strephon supported his
>> nephews Varian, and Lucan, and even gave them apartments in the palace, but
>> then again, it implied that they (especially Lucan) were were of a pain
in the
>> A--, than the British Royals. :-)
>
>But did they have jug ears & tend to fall off of riding beasts while showing 
>off the Imperial bloodline?

well, we know that Strephon seemed more fond of sailing than ruling (TD #9)
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 11:13:21 -0700
From: "Brannon \"Ben\" Boren" <brannonb@blarg.net>
Subject: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>  
> According to a Q&A in a _Travellers' Digest_ a 40 year old starship is
> worth about 20 or 25% of original price. 


Something has to give on this issue. That's like saying that an aircraft
built in 1958 is just as good as an aircraft built today.  Fact is that
nobody manufactures an aircaft like those built in 1958 anymore. If you had
an old one and tried to sell it, it would probably not sell AT ALL to a
real business interest (i.e. a company that wanted to use it to transport
passengers and cargo) - it might sell as an antique or curiosity.

This should be even worse in the Imperium's high-tech environment, where
one would think that 40 years would make an EVEN BIGGER difference in
technological development. Pilots trained on modern spacecraft in the Imp
Navy going down to 40 year old Traders would be like F-16 pilots trying to
fly old B-25s - they could do it probably, but it'd be a *huge* step down
for them. They'd notice the zillion pieces of missing technology (all the
bells and whistles). No infrared cameras, no laser targeting, no computer
navigation, no computer aided radar, no ground-avoidance system, and on and
on.  

Same deal for navigators and engineers. Could a U.S. Navy carrier's nuclear
power technician also function on a WW2 era ship with boilers? Maybe, but
he'd have a LOT to learn.

Has Traveller ever addressed the idea that technology does not stand still
for 40 years while you pay off your ship?


> As the rules are
> now (TNE rules excepted), a 40 year old ship is a wonderful investment.
> Bank payments are one quarter those of a new ship but incomes are the
> same.

There would have to be a corresponding increase in maintenence costs for
older ships. Perhaps a monthly chance of breakdown and a roll to determine
how much the repair costs. Also the annual maintenence cost should increase
with the age of the ship to some degree.  Certainly though, even with these
costs, an older ship, just like an older car today, is a much better buy
than a new one if all you need is transportation from point A to point B (
if you don't care about the cockpit having electric seat-warmers and
adjustable cup-holders).

Those new ships depriciate 10 MCr as soon as you fly them off the lot!  ;)

Of course old ships also have a lot of Role-Playing value, as you force the
crew to spend three days trying to figure out what is making that awful
"scrinch-scrinch-scrinch-skreeeeeee..." sound that reverberates through the
Navigator's cabin wall whenever the port side thruster assembly fires. Also
there's the fact that the food dispenser only works if the cockpit
environment controls are set below 40F... etc.

Ben

- --
Brannon "Ben" Boren
brannonb@blarg.net
http://www.mog.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 98 20:23 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: 'High Crusade' movie

Moin Pat Connaughton,

> Bruce, I've never heard of the movie, though I really
> love the book and have it in my permanent collection
> of science fiction. Could you find out more details
> - distributor, production company etc?

	do you mean : High Crusade - Frikasee im Weltraum
	with alan cox (MTV) as the only known artist. Its
	a mixture of Monthy Phyton and SF.

	- story " A starship lands near a medivial castle
	  in england, the barbariens board the vessel to
	  start a crusade to Jerusalem. Instead they conquer
	  a starport of a distant planet. "

	If like to laugh, its recomended (after 1 gram mariuana,
	or 3 bottles of beer) As even Jump is traveller like,
	you can claim a minor race with a vilani vessel. I still
	remember the discussion wether a laser or a bow is the
	supperior weapon. Of course its the bow, because you can
	eat the rabbit afterwards.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 98 20:47 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Human Identification (was Piracy)

Moin Steven Hudson,

> >If you take the whole ship, you either have to kill the crew
> >(which ups the importance of the crime) or you have to interact
> >with them (letting them get a good look at you).
> 
>   So they get a good look at your vacc suit. So?

	The Airport and the Trainstation of our small home town now has
	some high tech, build by ZAIT (iirc). A neural network for
	detecting people. The current installation can detect about 400
	people, not only by face recocnisation, but also by movement
	pattern (arm&legs).  Some fusselige logic is collecting the
	answers of the different neural network. And test proved
	successfull.

	So to answer your question : This little TL:8 "artificial
	intelligence" can recocnise you at the next starport, if you
	are wearing a high tech jump/skin suite, by the pattern of
	your walking, handmovement and headmovement. I would advice
	to wear either a battle dress, or a TL:7 VacSuite, to cheat
	this system ;-)

	Back to piracy: I'm sure any starport would have a recocnisation
	system. This wont be able to identify "jo average" when first
	seen. But it would have a large database of important nobles,
	terrorist, pirates, ...

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 14:48:52 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")

At 11:13 AM 6/3/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>>  
>> According to a Q&A in a _Travellers' Digest_ a 40 year old starship is
>> worth about 20 or 25% of original price. 
>
>
>Something has to give on this issue. That's like saying that an aircraft
>built in 1958 is just as good as an aircraft built today.  Fact is that
>nobody manufactures an aircaft like those built in 1958 anymore. If you had
>an old one and tried to sell it, it would probably not sell AT ALL to a
>real business interest (i.e. a company that wanted to use it to transport
>passengers and cargo) - it might sell as an antique or curiosity.
>
>This should be even worse in the Imperium's high-tech environment, where
>one would think that 40 years would make an EVEN BIGGER difference in
>technological development. Pilots trained on modern spacecraft in the Imp
>Navy going down to 40 year old Traders would be like F-16 pilots trying to
>fly old B-25s - they could do it probably, but it'd be a *huge* step down
>for them. They'd notice the zillion pieces of missing technology (all the
>bells and whistles). No infrared cameras, no laser targeting, no computer
>navigation, no computer aided radar, no ground-avoidance system, and on and
>on.  
>
>Same deal for navigators and engineers. Could a U.S. Navy carrier's nuclear
>power technician also function on a WW2 era ship with boilers? Maybe, but
>he'd have a LOT to learn.
>
>Has Traveller ever addressed the idea that technology does not stand still
>for 40 years while you pay off your ship?

This then raises another argument:  If the technology increases so fast,
then the Tech Levels are rather flawed.  The real question, as I see it, is
wheather the increase in technology that has been seen since WW2 and
especially since the advent of the modern computer, will continue at the
current pace or will it level out.

A recent article I read that discussed Moore's Law (The power of computers
doubling every 18 months) continuing as the defacto trend stated that
current predictions show that it will begin to level off after 2025 or so.

IMO, if technology does not plateau at some stage, the TL of the Imperium
should be far higher than it is currently.  Using Sylea as an example, in Y
0 it is TL12.  In 1200 years it is only able to gain three tech levels?  We
gained three levels in the past fifty years...

The distinction you make between a TL8 Nuclear Engineer or Combat Pilot
going back to a TL4 or 5 system was, IIRC, covered by the TL difficulty
modifiers in MT.  In real life, the two are seperated by several watershead
events and technology advances.  A sailor from 100AD would with some
training fit in perfectly with a crew from the 1840's.  Similarly, a pilot
who earned his wings in the late 50's will likely be comfortable in a
modern aircraft with the required amount of transition training that any
pilot new to the type would get.

As always, my $.02...



Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:48:31 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #549

Wed, 03 Jun 1998 01:48:53 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
[Vaious views on how much the Imperium has to spend on non-Naval
costs, I don't agree with it, but it is irrelvant since even if
the Navy was the only Imperial department, it wouldn't have money
"left over" because it to has competing needs.]

>  True. I've yet to see an elaboration of why a Navy that seems to possess
>such a vast (and immensely expensive) fleet, including (pardon the phrase)
>presumed astronomical quantities of small escort/patrol/picket/raider ships
>(not even counting local navies and non-starships) would be either unable or
>unwilling to deploy them in any meaningful internal security effort.

Well, the point I was making is that the Navy doesn't "have money
left over".  What you are getting to here is the issue that the
Navy has all those ship it owns for "free" in peace times.  The
issues of whether retasking those ships detracts from readyness and
wether their are enough to wipe out piracy (getting into the
sub issues of the number of ships it takes to patrol a system)
were all reacent covered in depth.

>>No.  In my proposal the additional taxes produced a direct
>>savings that both help pay for the taxes and makes there
>>acceptance easier.

>  Try that again? I thought it was the presumed investment in the
>jump-station/tanker system that produced the saving, and that the
>taxes were what paid for the massive expansion of the Imperial Navy
>tanker assets that your last suggestion seemed to require.

Well, dropping out your slipping in the term "massive" (and noteing
that tankers weren't the only alternative) both the investment and
the protection make them possible.  If the tankers weren't necessary
then we can just drop them.  If they are necessary, then those paying
for them will see them as necessary for the savings.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #551
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Traveller-digest       Wednesday, June 3 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 552



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Subs & Sandwiches (shorter)
Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")
Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)
Piracy and Bases
Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")
Re: Query regarding Traveller Minatures 15mm
Re: 'High Crusade' movie
Re: Sensors
Re: Turnlengths & physics
Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")
Re: CD-rom
Gurps Traveller Conversion
Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")
Re: The sort of people who become Pirates
Re: Trav characters good or evil?
Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 11:05:47 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Subs & Sandwiches (shorter)

Wed, 03 Jun 1998 02:07:14 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>OK, first, for the record, you aren't argueing "by definition"
>>here.  But to address the curent point.

>  "By definition, the vast majority of traffic (at least by tonnage)
>is to high-traffic systems".

>  If there's a major flaw in that statement, I'd like to know about it.

There is nothing in the defintion of "high-traffic systems" (or in any
of the words and terms used) that requires that the majority (or
the vast majority) of the traffic to be to high traffic systems.
The definition only requires the high traffic systems have more
traffic (per system) than low traffic systems.  It says nothing
about the share of Imperium wide traffic that they have.

>>being in close proximity to a high traffic world does _not_
>>automatically mean you will get more traffic.

>  Only true if the system in question is of no intrinsic interest and
>isn't a useful refuelling point to somewhere that is worth connecting
>to. There's going to be relatively few systems that fit those terms.

Well, it doesn't have to be of _no_ interest, that is the
requirement for _no_ traffic.  It has to be a lesser interest,
but then that is the central characteristic of a low traffic
system.  Being in close proximity will gain _some_ systems
traffic they wouldn't otherwise have, if they are on the
way to someplace else.

>  We're not talking about backwaters here (except maybe compared to
>high-pop worlds) - "medium traffic routes" is a very rough term, but
>I would suggest that the first step down from high traffic is going
>to be a reduction in the truly large mega-corp freighters. Would you
>accept that working definition?

No.  I depends on why they are medium traffic.  They might have
one big harvest of a cash crop and their traffic consists mostly
of  huge transports at harvest.  Or they could ship out modest amounts
of something all the time and rely on smaller for frequent transports.

But the point is that we _are_ considering backwater systems.
If you want a system of "I'm coming" messages to work, it has
to work everywhere.  Otherwise you aren't eliminating piracy
or hijacking, you are just pushing it off to different system.

I don't think piracy will occur at high traffic systems and
so I don't think such a system be used there because there will
be no need for it.

[Though I have stated that I don't think this would be 100%
proof against hijacking and I don't see how someone expecting
you helps if you simply don't show up.]

>>>a load put together. If a ship is heading to your destination, you, a
>>>passenger, or someone acting on behalf of someone could send a message
>>>ahead.

>>_If_ a ship is heading your way.

>  Luckily, I specified that. It's a heck of a jog for the cabin boy.
>Remember, we're discussing (IIRC) "medium traffic routes", which is
>presumably an intermediate step between high and low.

Stepping away from "medium traffic".
Well, any system that has, on average, afew ships a day will have
enough traffic to be worth piracy, but not enough traffic to
guarantee that you have a ship leaving before you (random variation
will produce gaps).

>>Yeah, but a message from a competator to his next port of call
>>might just get special attention?
>
> i) what if a customer sends it?
> ii) what if it's sent via a local courier companies mail container?
>
>  Even if you do (why?) have such a message hand delivered by the deck
>officer of another vessel it seems deliberately ridiculous to assume that
>sending ahead a message confirming your ETA, when you've already announced
>your departure time and destination (to get custom) will compromise your
>business dealings in any meaningful way. Would you care to specify what
>portion of the picture here I've missed?

What customer?  If you are hiring a courier, then you have to pay
his salary and his passage.  And yes, knowing when you are showing
up to trade _does_ give your competition a leg up on you.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 15:29:23 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")

>Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>>
>> According to a Q&A in a _Travellers' Digest_ a 40 year old starship is
>> worth about 20 or 25% of original price.
>
>
>Something has to give on this issue. That's like saying that an aircraft
>built in 1958 is just as good as an aircraft built today. [snip]

You're analogy seems to me to be incorrect.  I think you would be better
served using the maritime cargo carrier as a model; I have no firsthand
knowledge of how well a 40 year old container ship would sell in today's
market, but my guess is that it sells better than 40 year old passenger
planes.

>This should be even worse in the Imperium's high-tech environment,[snip]
>Pilots trained on modern spacecraft in the Imp
>Navy going down to 40 year old Traders would be like F-16 pilots trying to
>fly old B-25s [snip]
>
>Same deal for navigators and engineers. Could a U.S. Navy carrier's nuclear
>power technician also function on a WW2 era ship with boilers? Maybe, but
>he'd have a LOT to learn.

Now you're making a couple of errors in my opinion.  First, the Imperium
has moved *1* tech level in the last 20-40 years (say, 1070 to 1110),
before that the Tech level changed by *2* in over 900 years (TL12 in M:0,
TL14 by 1050 or before).  Our own Tech Level in 1998 has moved by some
(debateable) measures 4 levels in just 50 years (TL4 to TL8, estimated).  I
do not wish to debate the likelihood or reasons for such a slow tech
advance (I didn't want to discuss Pirates for the same reasons), but it is
part of the Imperium's history.

Another problem I have with the above arguments is the comparison of
Military Technology, which in our times of swift technological change,
requires a great deal of updating (and, presumably, would in the 3I setting
as well) with the situation being discussed, which I though was civilian.
To use a civilian example, Pilots trained on Boeing 727s would have no
problem (after a 'standard' amount of retraining) flying a DC-3, of which
there are many still in service, despite the age of the design (and in some
cases, the airframe).

>Has Traveller ever addressed the idea that technology does not stand still
>for 40 years while you pay off your ship?

Here's my third (or is it fourth?) rub on this argument; Ships in the
Imperium are not all built at TL15.  There are many type A starports around
or on planets that are TL12 and Lower.  All of these Starports can build
ships.  Most of their host planets cannot build TL15 components or hulls.
There are two possibilities; they import all their components, or they
build ships at the local Tech Level.  I choose to believe both; a TL13
planet with a type A starport will probably build you a TL15 ship, for a
premium, or you can get a perfectly servicable, if somewhat less durable
and efficient, TL13 ship for less money.  The hull may be Crystaliron
instead of Superdense, the power plant might be a bit bigger, but the price
will be lower as well.

>> As the rules are
>> now (TNE rules excepted), a 40 year old ship is a wonderful investment.
>> Bank payments are one quarter those of a new ship but incomes are the
>> same.
>
>There would have to be a corresponding increase in maintenence costs for
>older ships. Perhaps a monthly chance of breakdown and a roll to determine
>how much the repair costs. Also the annual maintenence cost should increase
>with the age of the ship to some degree.

This is certainly a good option in your Traveller universe.  In mine, the
point of the price cut in older ships is to make it possible for the
players to purchase a ship when they have almost no money (relative to e
price of a new ship) and few prospects without one.  I do not need to be so
consistent that I then calculate the implications of such a measure
Imperium wide.

On the other hand, the Characters will get hit with some repair bills on
their old tramp freighter, corporate flunkies treat them with disdain for
flying an ancient 'bucket of bolts' and Imperial Princesses will say things
like "you came in *that*?  You're braver than I thought!".  Perhaps even a
hit on the likelihood of passengers (although in backwaters, passengers
tend to be more desperate).  Oh, and an older ship will suffer worse and
sooner than a new one when they skip a maintanence cycle or two.

[snip good ideas for inconveniencing players]

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 12:21:49 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)

Wed, 03 Jun 1998 03:16:47 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)

>>>   The issue then becomes why a society with clear economic and security
>>> concerns would decline to use the most effective (and cost-efficient)
>>> mechanisms available to them.

>>Well, I don't find your proposals the most cost-effecient.

>- - Inspecting ships at ports is very expensive?
>- - Using already existing assets for patrols?
>- - Registering ship specifics and ownership?
>- - Low levels of random inspections by patrol vessels?
>- - Using (non-tamperproof) transponders to track ship movements.
>- - Reviewing ship movements for anomalous behaviour (INI).

Yes. I find many of them more expensive than you do.  I find
others not possible.  Other things in this list I don't disagree
with, but I don't think come close to making piracy impossible.
But we have already discussed these and surely don't expect
me to debate the same point all over again...

[And again let us drop out your insertion of terms like
"very" expensive since I never claimed they had to be "very"
expensive, I wish you wouldn't do it, I don't have time to
waste hunting for those things and commenting on them.]

>  IIRC, minimal combat vessel presence, or none in some cases, no
>meaningfully useful ship registry data, no effort to track personnel
>of any sort, including passenger manifests (again, forget piracy and
>just go a-slavin' - they even pay to board!), no effort to confirm
>ship ID's (and no real way of doing so), and no interest in checking
>the uncollected movement data for anomalies?

No.  I never said any of this.  They are all taking my points
and pushing them to an extreme that they were never intended
to cover (I have specifically commented, for example, how
not having fool proof ID isn't the same as having no ID).

>  Obviously we need to discuss and define reasonable and effective
>measures in greater detail. What level of inspections would you
>propose for a system of more moderate internal measures?

We could, if we didn't have to go back and revisit points
already raised and I didn't have to keep correcting your
spin on what I said.  Otherwise I just don't have time.

>>It doesn't.  I don't see how this addresses the point (perhaps
>>I am missing something).  To stop nukes by regulating trade

>  If control at source is easy enough, then it works. Are there
>Imperial inspectors on-site, or do local gov'ts handle this?

What do we use today?  Probably a mixture of methods including
corp, local, and Imperial measures.

>  As I described it further down, you wouldn't stop and search anything
>like every vessel, nor am I sure that circumvention is a trivial task.

It doesn't have to "trivial" and I never claimed it was.  It just
has to be reasonably possible.  And yes, if you wanted to stop
terrorist from moving nukes you would have to stop and search
most, if not all, ships.

>  Yep. OC, we've go the potential problem of pirates with Seekers
>mining their own fissionable, and smugglers bringing them in from
>non-compliant jurisdictions.

As a Ph. D. Chemist, I don't buy the assumption that all
you need is a seeker and a source of uranium ore.  This depends
on assumtions about the kind of equiment that exist that
I find quesitonable.  However, even if they can I think they
are better off keeping people from setting up unauthorized
mining operations.  In any case, this would mean that there
probably _isn't_ a way of stopping nukes.

>>the problem.  Nuke from domestic sources are easier
>>to control at the source.

>  A number of people have expressed concern about the technical
>accuracy of that statement. IYTU, I'll happily concede the point.

Well, if you just want to keep drug, tax evading, etc. smuggling
down to acceptable levels, I agree the occaisional inspections
of suspicious ship, coupled with investigation back tracking
goods do their source, etc. will be in use and will be sufficient.

>>The problem is that if you want to stop terrorists from
>>moving nukes, inspecting one in very 100 (or even one
>>in 10) ships isn't going to work.

>  Correct. I don't think the transit of nukes can be reliably
>stopped, except by physical inspection at starports (ships not
>using the facility wouldn't be searched, unless randomly tagged
>for such by a patrol vessel), IMTU.

If you spend a day searching a ship (you are going to have to
get into every small compartment and resesses) and do it at every stop,
I think you can stop "many" nukes.  The cost in lost trade and
inspectors would be huge.  It woudln't be certain (just like
searching people coming over the boarder isn't certain).

>>>   How do you plan to shield your nukes?
>>
>>Lead always work well (and they aren't so big they need
>>that much of it).  However, the fact is that starship
>>travel like in Traveller is dependant on the availability
>>of lightweight radiation shielding to protect ships from
>>radiation.  Finally, even it you didn't have physical
>>shielding, you could use neuclear dampers to stop the
>>decay of radiactives until you are ready to use them.
>
>  Nuclear dampers are neither cheap (TL 13+, MCr 1+ from Striker I)
>nor easily available (after all, they make playing with nuclear
>weapons much easier), presumably.
>
>  AFAIK, neither of these is going to stop a geiger counter from
>screaming when an inspection plays a damper across your ship and
>the material starts shedding particles (I realize that someone
>mentioned this a few months ago re: cargo/nuke inspections; I forget
>who - from B:4 Mercenary, IIRC).

Well, both will stop a gieger counter.  The cost depends on
who is doing the smuggling.  There are possible groups who
woudl be willing to pay it.

>>None.  You are talking terrorists and enemy agents who are already
>>risking life and death.  If the Red Guard had only a 5% chance
>>of failure in nuking Washington it would be radioactive pit.

>  No, Mr. Summers, I'm not talking about "terrorists and enemy agents
>who are already risking life and death." As indicated in the section
>of my response that you snipped, I was referring to smugglers - the
>people who move illegal goods for economic gain.

What you did was take the thread on smuggling nukes and start
refering to those doing the smuggling as "smugglers".  I assumed
you meant this as anyone who was smuggling a nuke (which includes
agents and terrorist).  If you mean "common smugglers", sure you
can deter them, but you still haven't stopped the others.

>  OK. What about the porousity of the frontier? I'll grant your
>position about controlling the sources of nukes IYTU.

I don't agree that the frontier is porous.  I agree that you
raised question about how it is guarded but...
a) The setting presumes some control of what enters the Imperium
or there are other problems that make this debate a sideshow.
b) The same proceedure you cite to bypass the frontier could
be used to bypass the inspections you are putting your faith in.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: 03 Jun 1998 14:58 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Piracy and Bases

Who would have a starport to support Bad People(tm)?

Fulacin has a small class A starport, corporate owned and operated.
Actually, the Imperium may have taken it over by now, I'm not
sure -- it depends on that sticky matter about being a front for
the Zhodani.

If you really need 5,000,000 people to support a starport capable
of servicing 5000 tons for 14 days out of the year, then
you need 500,000 people to support a starport capable of servicing
5000 tons for 140 days out of the year, perhaps.

That's a big pirate base.  I assume it's an incorrect application.

Rob
IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 14:51:17 -0500
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")

"Brannon \"Ben\" Boren" <brannonb@blarg.net> Wrote:

>Something has to give on this issue. That's like saying that an aircraft


< snip>

>Has Traveller ever addressed the idea that technology does not stand still
>for 40 years while you pay off your ship?


Actually, in Traveller technology does stand still for 40 years (sort-of).

The Tech Level jump from the 1950's to the 1990's happens MUCH faster than
in the later Imperium. Look at it this way, in year 0 they're TL 12, and
they're only TL 15 in 1100!.

If you grant that from 1950 to 1990 there is a TL increase of 1 (TL 7 to 8,
perhaps), then you would think that at 1100 the Imperium would be beating
the Ancients, hands down. But there appears to be a rapidly steepening
technology curve at the higher levels.

I see no problem with 40 year old ships plying the space lanes, and I don't
think they'll be as different as you think.

IMHO, of course.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+  |
|       vi+ da+                                                      |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                           |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 10:51:53 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Query regarding Traveller Minatures 15mm

I know of them, actually i own a set of most of them ;-) (only military is missing). Sadly, the
store where i bought them threw them out about half a year ago, which i found out when i wanted
to buy more.
However, if you ever get the chance to get these minis somewhere, buy them, cause they are
excellent!


- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 13:04:07 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: 'High Crusade' movie

Michael Koehne wrote:

>         do you mean : High Crusade - Frikasee im Weltraum
>         with alan cox (MTV) as the only known artist. Its
>         a mixture of Monthy Phyton and SF.
> 
>         - story " A starship lands near a medivial castle
>           in england, the barbariens board the vessel to
>           start a crusade to Jerusalem. Instead they conquer
>           a starport of a distant planet. "

Well, that counds like it, but there's no Alan Cox listed anywhere in
the credits on the Internet Movie Database (www.moviedatabase.com). They
DO give it the keywords Sci Fi/aliens/knights/comedy so I suspect we're
talking about the same thing.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 09:38:16 +0100
From: "Buston, John" <john.buston@eds.com>
Subject: Re: Sensors

A problem with good sensors is the sheer number of potential targets
they would detect in a system. There are thousands of orbiting asteroids
out there, any of which could conceal ships or be concealed ships or
sensor stations.

Wouldn't a good planetary defense (and pirate intimidation) strategy be
to put a lot of asteroids in varying and eccentric orbits around the
planet.  Some of these would be real planetary defense or sensor
stations, but most just dummies with station keeping thrusters. You
could even dummy a high heat signature by shooting them with your lasers
every so often.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 09:38:03 +0100
From: "Buston, John" <john.buston@eds.com>
Subject: Re: Turnlengths & physics

>>If I have a certain hexscale and use past->present->future markers 
>>to depict my ships location and speed what turn length should I use 
>>if I want a 1 hex velocity change represent 1G of acceleration?

I think (hope) I understand what you mean.

Would a slight change in the frame of reference for the markers allow
realistic acceleration to be modeled?:

Past      = where I was at the start of the turn
Present = where I will be at the end of the turn
Future   = where I will be at the end of the next turn if I don't
accelerate

e.g. accelerate at 1G continually from rest, hex size = 1G acceleration
move:

turn 1: past=0, present=1 (acc), future=3 (gap=2*acc)
turn 2: past=1, present=4 (3+1), future=8 (previous gap + 2*acc).
turn 3: past=4, present=9 (8+1), future=15 (previous gap + 2*acc)
etc.

Or have I misunderstood?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 13:18:44 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")

At 11:13 AM 6/3/98 -0700, you wrote:

>Something has to give on this issue. That's like saying that an aircraft
>built in 1958 is just as good as an aircraft built today.  Fact is that
>nobody manufactures an aircaft like those built in 1958 anymore. If you had
>an old one and tried to sell it, it would probably not sell AT ALL to a
>real business interest (i.e. a company that wanted to use it to transport
>passengers and cargo) - it might sell as an antique or curiosity.

http://www.af.mil/news/factsheets/C_130_Hercules.html

>This should be even worse in the Imperium's high-tech environment, where
>one would think that 40 years would make an EVEN BIGGER difference in
>technological development. Pilots trained on modern spacecraft in the Imp
>Navy going down to 40 year old Traders would be like F-16 pilots trying to
>fly old B-25s - they could do it probably, but it'd be a *huge* step down
>for them. They'd notice the zillion pieces of missing technology (all the
>bells and whistles). No infrared cameras, no laser targeting, no computer
>navigation, no computer aided radar, no ground-avoidance system, and on and
>on.  

The difference being that we've gone from TL 5 to TL 8 in a single century.
 That Imperial pilot may go from a shiny new TL 15 battleship, but his
rusty, forty year old Beowulf is still TL 15.  

For the average citizen of Glisten, TL 15 is the way things have always
been.  The modern experience of exploding technological ability can't be
used to model a society where siginificant technological advance occurs
every few centuries, as opposed to years.

>Same deal for navigators and engineers. Could a U.S. Navy carrier's nuclear
>power technician also function on a WW2 era ship with boilers? Maybe, but
>he'd have a LOT to learn.

Yet the Navy still has many vessels with those out-dated boilers.  As part
of my training with the US Army, I learned to use a bayonet.  This is a
weapon designed to turn a musket into a spear, and was last used to any
great effect in 1917.

>Has Traveller ever addressed the idea that technology does not stand still
>for 40 years while you pay off your ship?

Yes, in the idea that for the Imperium has plateaued technologicaly, and
advancement is slow.  Look at our history.  Between 1 AD and 1400, how many
TL's did we go up? Between 1400 and 1800? 1800 and the present day?  It's
entirely possible that there is a ceiling that requires a basic change in
how you think, and that slows overall technological advancement.  It could
be that fusion reactors reach TL 15 effciencies at TL 12, but materials
rech lags behind in making effcient enough radiators.


- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:28:51 EDT
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Re: CD-rom

In a message dated 6/3/98 7:56:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ringrose@ascent.com writes:

	[[ When you have the Mac problems (you mentioned on TML) with the traveller
CD-Rom fixed, please email me -- I'm interested, but use a Mac. ]]

	Bruce Johnson recieved a copy he's using on a MAC with no reported problems
so far. Rob Prior recieved an earlier copy and stated he had problems, but
didn't really give me any details, and there might have been a possibility
that I created his disk incorrectly. You might contact Bruce and see if your
setup is similar to his, if so, the disk should work.
	Oh, there was two problems, apparently the MAC software doesn't work
correctly unstuffed. Unluckily I'm not sure there's any way I can fix this.
And some of the artwork/graphics didn't display properly (including some he
sent me, I haven't heard if he figured out that problem yet).


Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 11:36:36 +0100
From: "Buston, John" <john.buston@eds.com>
Subject: Gurps Traveller Conversion

Has anyone done a Traveller to Gurps conversion spreadsheet or program?

If so where is it?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 13:37:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")

"Brannon \"Ben\" Boren" <brannonb@blarg.net> wrote:

>Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>>  
>> According to a Q&A in a _Travellers' Digest_ a 40 year old starship is
>> worth about 20 or 25% of original price. 

>Something has to give on this issue. That's like saying that an aircraft
>built in 1958 is just as good as an aircraft built today.  Fact is that
>nobody manufactures an aircaft like those built in 1958 anymore. If you had
>an old one and tried to sell it, it would probably not sell AT ALL to a
>real business interest (i.e. a company that wanted to use it to transport
>passengers and cargo) - it might sell as an antique or curiosity.

>This should be even worse in the Imperium's high-tech environment, where
>one would think that 40 years would make an EVEN BIGGER difference in
>technological development. Pilots trained on modern spacecraft in the Imp
>Navy going down to 40 year old Traders would be like F-16 pilots trying to
>fly old B-25s - they could do it probably, but it'd be a *huge* step down
>for them. They'd notice the zillion pieces of missing technology (all the
>bells and whistles). No infrared cameras, no laser targeting, no computer
>navigation, no computer aided radar, no ground-avoidance system, and on and
>on.  

That's one thing I'm sure would *not* be true.  In Traveller terms we've
gone up several tech levels from 1948 (TL 6-TL 8).  Going up one TL in the
Imperium take several hundred years.  This is a society with a very slow
rather of technological progress, both because it is a conservative
society and because it seems that once you get above around TL 11/12 it is
much harder to keep improving.  Even the Darrians, the most rapidly
advancing civilization known, took around 450 years to go from TL 12 to TL
16, or around 110 years/TL.  The Imperium takes around 3x as long to
advance. 

In any case, a modern ship would have at best a few extremely 
minor refinements over a 40 year old ship.

Comments?


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:39:29 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: The sort of people who become Pirates

This is hilarious.  I think i'll invent a rare (and thus valuable) animal on a
planet out in the Wilds where the players might try to get it inside the hold
w/o special preparations... should make it like a Rhino or something to really
spice it up... Actually, it should be docile enough so the players won't
suspect it'll go crazy.  Of course, I don't think even my players are dumb
enough  to try that unless they're under pressure or something.  I'll have to
put them under pressure to get something like this. : ) Of course, maybe
having them on the ship on the surface.  Now THAT could be funnier. 

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:39:31 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Trav characters good or evil?

> I always thought of this as "Twilight 2000 in Space" because not only the
> rules, but the basic campaign premise (rebuild shattered civilisation and
> deal roughly with warlords - err, sorry, TEDs - using mainly military
> means)
> were the same. No offence, TNE lovers everywhere... :)

None taken, and i'm probably the most reactionary. ; )  It's true, mostly (and
was logical since T:2000 outsold MT).  Of course, I disagree bout the  "mainly
military means," and say more emphasis was on exploration than military (to
say nothing of the numerous non-military campaigns possible)...  

Of course, even the military means of TNE are a step up from repugnance of the
Rebellion and the callous disregard to authority that usually epitomises CT
(which lead to MT).  To say nothing of the pure nastiness of the Zhunastu
"School" and the early 3I as seen in M:0.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 98 22:40 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")

Moin Andrew Akins,

> I see no problem with 40 year old ships plying the space lanes, and I don't
> think they'll be as different as you think.

	well I see many problems with 40 year old ships. Perhaps you can
	be happy to obtain a 40 year old yacht that had exelent service
	and only a wear value of 15. Sometimes you see ship's only 20
	year old that are worn out (60 or more) but most traders that
	save resonable service during the last 40 year's will have a
	wear value of 40 in their problem parts and around 20 (half)
	in most others.

	I see many problems with 40 year old ships plying the space lanes.
	If a powerplant has 40% wear, its likely to have some problems
	within a month of 40%. If a jump drive has a wear of 40% you
	should better ask for a tender. If a player deceides to buy a
	40 year old Yacht or Trader, I roll some problem parts and their
	wear, and you can be sure that the next secenario has a "get a
	fuselwutz to repair the jump drive hpg" as a red herring. Of
	course fuzelwutz is build 8 parsecs away, and the ship can not
	jump without ;-)

	Nobody would sell a 40 year old ship, if anything is fine.
- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #552
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Wednesday, June 3 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 553



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")
Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")
Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")
Re: Hijacking summation?
Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")
Re: Puns
Traveller Slant
Re Piracy
Nobility and Incomes
Skills and Tech Levels
Piracy (long)
Re: Plot Device/Blowing up ships
Tech Level Advancement and Ship Prices
Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 17:18:08 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")

At 01:37 PM 6/3/98 -0700, you wrote:
>"Brannon \"Ben\" Boren" <brannonb@blarg.net> wrote:
>That's one thing I'm sure would *not* be true.  In Traveller terms we've
>gone up several tech levels from 1948 (TL 6-TL 8).  Going up one TL in the
>Imperium take several hundred years.  This is a society with a very slow
>rather of technological progress, both because it is a conservative
>society and because it seems that once you get above around TL 11/12 it is
>much harder to keep improving.  Even the Darrians, the most rapidly
>advancing civilization known, took around 450 years to go from TL 12 to TL
>16, or around 110 years/TL.  The Imperium takes around 3x as long to
>advance. 

This is an interesting observation.  It would also explain why we were not
TL-15 when we met the Vilani. One possible reason is economic.  If you
advance too fast, you will have warehouses full of goods that are
unsellable.  Imagine the Military of today going from M-1 tanks, M-16's,
F-18's and seagoing ships to J-3 starships, Orbital fighters, laser and
gauss rifles, and grav tanks...  While the military could buy such
material, it would make the fighter purchases of the fifties and early
sixties look reasonable.



Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 17:22:24 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")

At 10:40 PM 6/3/98 +0000, you wrote:
>Moin Andrew Akins,
>
>> I see no problem with 40 year old ships plying the space lanes, and I don't
>> think they'll be as different as you think.
>
>	well I see many problems with 40 year old ships. Perhaps you can
>	be happy to obtain a 40 year old yacht that had exelent service
>	and only a wear value of 15. Sometimes you see ship's only 20
>	year old that are worn out (60 or more) but most traders that
>	save resonable service during the last 40 year's will have a
>	wear value of 40 in their problem parts and around 20 (half)
>	in most others.
>
>	I see many problems with 40 year old ships plying the space lanes.
>	If a powerplant has 40% wear, its likely to have some problems
>	within a month of 40%. If a jump drive has a wear of 40% you
>	should better ask for a tender. If a player deceides to buy a
>	40 year old Yacht or Trader, I roll some problem parts and their
>	wear, and you can be sure that the next secenario has a "get a
>	fuselwutz to repair the jump drive hpg" as a red herring. Of
>	course fuzelwutz is build 8 parsecs away, and the ship can not
>	jump without ;-)

If this is the case, then other to keep the drives and power plant running,
why have a two week annual maintence?  IF the ship is maintained, there
should be no problem.  I would, however, advocate a SLIP every fifteen
years that might take two or three months.

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:19:37 -0500
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")

kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne) wrote:
>
>Moin Andrew Akins,
>
>> I see no problem with 40 year old ships plying the space lanes, and I
don't
>> think they'll be as different as you think.
>
> well I see many problems with 40 year old ships. Perhaps you can

<snip>

> Nobody would sell a 40 year old ship, if anything is fine.


I see your point. But, I personally have two problems with it.

1 (and this is the least important reason overall, but it works for me). Not
to start an argument, but I don't use TNE rules. You may. Thus, I don't use
any sort of concept like "wear value".

2. Even if I do support the idea of "wear value" (overall, its not a bad
idea), I'm not sure the value would be as high as you stated, in a
non-post-rebellion setting. In TNE, the reason that ships had such lousy
wear values was not only because they were old, but they were old with no
real annual maintenance to speak of. In Hard Times it talks about how ships
just can't find parts or starports able to service them...thus they're
running on duct tape, spit, and luck. In a more stable setting, you would be
able to give a ship its full annual maintenance, and keep it in tip-top
shape. As good as new? Of course not. But IMHO it would be MUCH better than
your %40 failure rate.

Your milage may vary, of course :)

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+  |
|       vi+ da+                                                      |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                           |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 14:50:54 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Hijacking summation?

[Deleleting points that have been answered elsewhere or I just don't
care about anymore....]
Wed, 03 Jun 1998 05:06:32 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven
Hudson)
>   Which brings us back to several interesting points:
> i) how big can a pirate vessel be expected to be?

Part of the problem is the approach that you deterime
one way that piracy would be expected to work and then
figure out ways it would be stopped.  The real answer
is that it will be whatever does work.

> ii) how enormous a crime can they expect to pull off before they become
> someone's annual maneuvers? 

You can't say this for sure and it depends on who "someone"
is.  If you are talking about detail x ships to find them,
then the loses to that pirate will have to be seen as being
worth those resources.

> >Actualy, if you extrapolate drop tanks, they don't have to
> >be that big.  The main working part would be a set
> >if hoses that could be rapidly pulled away.  In any
> 
>   As pointed out previously on the list, a fuel station at the
> 100-D limit will naturally involve quite a bit of an establishment,
> not the least being all the other ships that use the facility. OC, add
> passenger and cargo facilities for trans-shipping, shuttle facilities,
> ship service capacity, admin, duty-free stores, etc. If there's enough
> traffic for a jump-fuel-station then the above seems almost inevitable,
> barring a strange traffic pattern (small quantities of bulk freighters).


Transhipping may grow eventually.  But they aren't required
for such a system and supposing a situation in which
bases big enough to allow the services listed doesn't 
argue against a system for fuel only.

> iii) weren't these jump stations last seen as Imperial Navy auxiliary tankers
> in your latest case for why the systems implementation would have been so swift
> that its' lack of mention in MT would make the system itself uncanonical?

They were _one_ example out of a number of ways in
which they could be implimented.  But in any case, 
you would still just need a big ship with a lot
of fuel and hoses you could pull away fast.

> iv) if these non-TankerRon type stations couldn't beat up a little raider
> (~500 Dt?) then how could they not be an immense strategic Achilles' heel?

Because they can be hidden on asteroids or moved under
planetary defenses, or maybe you have two are three of
them.  I see nothing in them that would even make them
all that expensive.

> >The US does almost
> >nothing to prevent serial murders from occuring.  This
> >is because they are rare.  It is a serious crime, but it
> >isn't seen as worth the kind of measures it would take
> >to make a significant impact in its occurance.

>   IIRC, the (WA) Green River killings task force was at least several
> dozen persons at its' peak; this was clearly a serious effort to stop
> the re-occurence of the event.

"Re-occurance".  Nothing was done until several people
were already dead and nothing was done to detect such a
crime before hand.  I have no objection to the Imperium
tasking ships to hunt a string if piracies...

> >And the Imperium will _never_ eliminate all causes of criminal
> >loss of life and property.  So, just like all societies, it
> >will settle for reducing these to acceptable levels.

>   Sure. Don't you think that using already extant and crewed patrol vessels
> for internal security deployments will be viewed as reasonable?

Sure.  I never said it wasn't.  I think there will be a cost
associated with them and they will be used to the degree
that the need is seen to justify the cost.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:06:35 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")

Something to remember:

all the ship design systems have produced costs in retail value.
Quantity discounts included. Products with a middleman (rifles,
electronics, etc) will have a wholesale (in quantity) at 40-60% off
retail. Wholesale prices are typically marked up from 2-5 times from
cost of manufacture. I wouldn't be surprised if _cost_ for a
starship was on the order of 20-40% of the listed cost (assuming a
standard design, without too much markup.  Pirates don't pay retail
:-)  

Something like this might be used to price out "building your own"
ship (a pirate groups' costs, in other words).

Just my Cr2.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 00:06:50 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Puns

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> >> Ah well. Say "La Guerre."
Nope, i prefer a pils!

> My favorite is the lost book by Lewis Carroll: _Alice in Ordnung_
Good to know ;-)
- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 12:46:47 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Traveller Slant

Ben raised the issue of systemic slants towards character behaviour.

Ben also mentioned 76 patrons.

One of the things that is interesting in 76 patrons is that most of the
"Criminal" actions are basically "I can't let/get the authorities to do
this, so would you please?" There are a few oddball ones. But most patron
type encounters in most games will be marginal on the legality scale.

the question is one of "Is Good the Same as Law?", to which I must say NO!,
but YMMV. Most of the criminal acts are for the greater good, even if they
are criminal.

above IMHO.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 13:24:36 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Re Piracy

>Tommy Grav writes:
>
>>But the annual maintenance is to insure that the ship is in *good* working
>>order. Many piratvessels will of course not be in this state as the annual
>>maintanence is skipped over and over again. The vessels will IMO be
>>patchworks of stolen and cheap bought equipment. Give the pirates a base
>>and time any good engineer could do most annual maintance *if needed*. It
>>will not be state of the art work, but it will propably work at least.
>
>The annual maintenance is to ensure that the jump drive works properly.
>Anything else is secondary (well, except the life support system... ;-).
>Have a look at the jump rules of any version of the Traveller rules. A
>pirate that dose not have his annual maintenance will eliminate himself
>as a problem within a few months of missing his annual maintenance.

Hans, take another look at TNE. Annual maintenance affects ALL SYSTEMS, not
just the Jump Drive. (See Rebuilds) The Rebuild rules allow lowering the WV.

Also, many worlds will have MORE THAN ONE STARPORT (MT WBH, Invasion
Earth). Canon gives us at least two class A ports on terra (Phoenix and
AECO). Now, think about a balkanzied world with an A or B port listed. Most
will have a B or C port per country... and all you need is a nation with a
B port that will accept you. Balkanized worlds aren't that uncommon,
either. Preferably a cold war balkanized world with at least one B port,
and enough capability for MAD, and politicos willing to let fly for
"Interfereing with out free trade", and you have a pirate haven. Especially
if the pirates operate not in the system.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 14:08:26 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Nobility and Incomes

Brannon "Ben" Boren Wrote
>Steven Hudson wrote:
>>   Isn't the nobility self-supporting?
>
>Good Question.
>
>Is the British Monarchy self-supporting today?  I was under the impression
>that the royalty (including far-reaching cousins, etc) received some sort
>of government subsidy (that's a nice house the Queen lives in, eh?).  Can
>someone who knows more about the subject contribute their insight on this
>matter?
>
>
>This is the way I see it in my Traveller Universe - Barons and above
>receive some sort of Imperial stipend. After all, you can't have the rank
>and file people seeing the Nobilty doing the same things as the commoners!
>The nobility have to "keep up appearances," even if it means supporting the
>lazy royal cousins.

IMTU, Landed imperial Nobility recieve a portion of the imperial budget for
their world, and Feifs usually include the duty-free areas of the
starports. For a company to operate under a non-local charter, some landed
nobleman must allow it to do so under his charter, usually for 1% - 5% of
company, with no votes cast, or all votes proxied to the CEO. So, say you
want to operate a subsector line in and around Regina. You contact the
duke, buy him off with say., 2% of the line, for the subsector LLSSC
(Limited Liability Subsector Charter). No world under the Reginan SS
authority can refuse to let you operate, but they can tax operations under
their scope, and any property that is local. Later, you want a sector LLSC,
so you go see the Duchess at Mora, chunk her some 2%, and get the LLSC, and
Still have the LLSSC from Regina, and now 4% of your corp is noble owned,
and the CEO can use it to break ties in the BoD.

Also, IMTU, all nobles are required to pay their feudal superior 2-3% of
their own income. And they get 1% of the local imperial tax assessment.
They function as the clearinghouse for items to the imperial gov't; they
are the stationhead for all imperial facilities except IISS, SS, Sector,
and Imperial Military. The local IMOJ office "reports" to the noble, even
tho he has no direct authority. Most imperial offices will be located in
feifs, since the duty of the feif is to make it available for imperial
functions. Oh, BTW, IMTU, most feifs are extraterritorial to the world they
are on, just like imperial naval and scout bases.

Again IMTU, the function of nobles is to maintain lands which serve as the
locus of Imperial Activities for a world. They get no direct stipend, but
get a share of the imperial taxes for their world, get ownership in many
companies (after hundreds of years, this can create quite a base of
income), and get local use taxes for starport facilities. They keep the
ports running.

IMTU, the limits on the benefits they gain is also important. Any corporate
shares gained by granting charters are part of the fief. Any structures
bought from the profits of the fief or it's holdings are part of the fief.
The first two officers a noble hires are an accountant and a seneschale...
the seneschale to keep things running while the noble and the accountant
figure out what is part of the fief, and what is personal inheritance, and
what is Somebody Else's Problem. Run it by the MoJ, and get their approval,
and send it before the local moot. It can take up to 2 years for an
inheritance of Title, one approved, to have all the books in working order
and signed off by the moots....

Honor Nobles (aka Reward Nobles) often have no fief, no income, and just a
title. Hereditary nobles might get a stipend from Daddy, but not from the
Imp Gov't. Both, however, are likely to be "Shuffled" into the
administration if there is room, generally in supervisory positions
requireing little more than verifying timesheets and dealing with unhappy
folks. Plus, they will often get involved in local politics, and local
buisinesses.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 14:48:45 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Skills and Tech Levels

>
>Has Traveller ever addressed the idea that technology does not stand still
>for 40 years while you pay off your ship?
>
Under MT, for each descriptor difference in TL, there is a penalty to skill
until you become familiarized. Keep in mind that a TL Descriptor covers
multiple TL's

PreInd	TL0-3
Ind	TL4-5
PrSt	TL 6-8
EaSt	TL9-10
AvSt	TL11-13
HiSt	TL14-16
ExtSt	TL17+
[TNE Mk1, Md 1, p19]

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 11:06:59 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Piracy (long)

Here's my entry into the piracy debate:

IMO there is an unfortunate conflict between canon which states that in the
late 3rd Imperium there is piracy and the workings of the Traveller
universe reflected in the rules (any version). One of these problems is the
economic one (which I'm not going to discuss as I know next to nothing
about economics), and another is that of whether the Imperial Navy conducts
anti-piracy patrols. IMO they do, as there is little else that a Patrol
Cruiser is good for and they are shown in many illustrations in Imperial
colours. Besides as far as I can tell using TCS the 3I has a rediculous
amount of Naval tonnage lying about, and until the various factions of the
Rebellion find a use for it there's nothing for the non-frontier sectors to
train on except pirates.

However what I want to talk about here is how the pirates are supposed to
actually catch their victims, take them over and get away before the Navy
arrives. The 100 diameter limit is about 0.5 LS (5 hexes) in radius per UWP
size rating, so even a size 8 planet's jump limit is at long range for a 16
hex AEMS, and it will be able to pick up targets out to 200 diameters given
time (note that thos makes the pirates job rather harder as they'll need to
outside 200 diameters, and can't use big AEMS sytems without advertising
themselves - they'd better hope the universe in question is using Bruce's
sensor rules so they can get decent range from their PEMS). This means that
even if a ship's exit point fell a little short or long it will be seen,
especially given that any legitemate ship will have a transponder. This
means that any piracy attempt will be known about by the authorities 10
seconds of the victim becoming aware of the attempt. Now at some atage the
pirate will have to come alongside the victim and match vectors. This is
going to be impossible to disguise and is very unlikely to be in accordance
with local traffic control, let alone astrogation regulations. As soon as
the pirate refuses to alter course they have given their game away.

Now about intercept times. Here is the result of a spreadsheet showing the
time for a ship to arrive at a distance of 50 diameters from its current
location with no relative motion (which is not realistic, but IMO can be
taken as an average time to match vectors with a target and is generous
anyway, because it doesn't take into account the target fleeing), and the
time to intercept from 400 diameters (which doesn't take into account the
target running towards the patrol ship, and is thus also generous towards
the pirate).

Turn around, 50 diameters							
acceleration:	1	2	3	4	5	6
planet's size							
1		1.52	1.08	0.88	0.76	0.68	0.62
2		2.15	1.52	1.24	1.08	0.96	0.88
3		2.64	1.86	1.52	1.32	1.18	1.08
4		3.04	2.15	1.76	1.52	1.36	1.24
5		3.4	2.41	1.96	1.7	1.52	1.39
6		3.73	2.64	2.15	1.86	1.67	1.52
7		4.03	2.85	2.32	2.01	1.8	1.64
8		4.3	3.04	2.48	2.15	1.92	1.76
9		4.56	3.23	2.64	2.28	2.04	1.86
10		4.81	3.4	2.78	2.41	2.15	1.96

No turn around, 400 diameters							
acceleration:	1	2	3	4	5	6
planet's size							
1		0	0	0	0	0	0
2		3.04	2.15	1.76	1.52	1.36	1.24
3		4.3	3.04	2.48	2.15	1.92	1.76
4		5.27	3.73	3.04	2.64	2.36	2.15
5		6.09	4.3	3.51	3.04	2.72	2.48
6		6.8	4.81	3.93	3.4	3.04	2.78
7		7.45	5.27	4.3	3.73	3.33	3.04
8		8.05	5.69	4.65	4.03	3.6	3.29
9		8.61	6.09	4.97	4.3	3.85	3.51
10		9.13	6.45	5.27	4.56	4.08	3.73

These times are in hours and count an intercept as getting to within 20
hexes, which IMO is close enough to hit a non-evading ship often enough
that a pirate would have to either get shot up or evade thus forcing him to
break off his raid. Note that in no case are the burn times for the patrol
ship prohibitive for a HEPLaR ship, so these conclusions apply even if
thrusters aren't used.

The longest safe period for the pirate is 7 hours and 10 minutes, and
that's with a 6G pirate and a 1G patrol ship. IMO this isn't very long to
transfer cargo, so the pirates must take the whole ship. This being the
case they'd better have a reputation for releasing victims alive, or
they'll have a hell of a job taking the ship in a functional state. If
pirates are known to kill their victims there is no percentage in not
fighting or sabotaging the ship. All it would take is a wrench being
applied to some sensitive part of the Jump Drive and the ship is utterly
worhtless to the pirates.

In the more reasonable case of a 4G Patrol Cruiser or SDB and a 4G (though
most corsairs and Vargr raiders are 3G, IIRC) even around a size 10 planet
the pirates have only 2 hours and 9 minutes to persuade the merchant to
stop maneuvering and then to capture the merchant. If the merchie runs
towards help the pirate would have only about an hour to do everything.

Now IMO the assumptions I have made are very generous as they assume that
there is only one patrol vessel around, and that it is on the other side of
the planet. I have also allowed that jumps miss the jump limit often enough
that the pirate doesn't have to go inside 100 diameters, and then back out
again before the Navy or local law arrives.

I also whipped up a drone with a 16 hex AEMS and a fusion recator to power
it and using FF&S1 it cost about MCR33 at TL12 (and that was treating it as
a vessel, not a missile). This means that very few planets with class C or
better ports won't have one, or something similar, and any class E starport
on a planet with any reasonable population (i.e. enough trade to make it a
target for piracy) will also have one.

By the late CT period there will be a lot of TL14 Naval tonnage from the
Solomani Rim War and the Third Frontier War that the IN would've wanted to
replace. These ships would be availible to planetary defence forces at low
rates - certainly no more than 50% of its new price, and looking at TNE's
wear value system more like 20 - 25%. This menas that SDB's would be going
for MCr 35 - 40. This means that a planet with a population of 1 million
could afford 10 of them using 0.5% of its GDP for Naval spending (using
TCS). Even our (New Zealand) government would popably buy a couple at these
prices.

In conclusion to my ramble (rant) I just don't see how piracy is possible
at the levels that the cononical encounter tables, TNS articles, etc show
given the physics of the Travller universe. This is unfortunate as IMO
piracy is important to the feel of the Traveller universe. I think I'll
just stick with the New Era where at least there aren't enough patrols to
stop it, though even that may not survive economic analysis :(

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 08:37:17 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Plot Device/Blowing up ships

At 03:16 PM 03/06/98 +0100, Jo_Grant wrote:

>Now, the damage.
>People have commented that a hydrogen explosion is unlikely to cause enough
>direct damage to take out a ship. I suspect flour explosions are even
>weaker. Consider, through, secondary damage. If the ship is in a large,
>hanger like facility, the explosion is likely to blow the roof off, and,
>well, it has to fall back down again.

From what I've heard dust explosions are actually very powerful if
conditions are optimal (mainly having a even dust density). They are
certainly powerful enough to uttlerly destroy whole factories - that's why
there are major saftey precautions in milk powder factories.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 09:34:00 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Tech Level Advancement and Ship Prices

At 03:29 PM 03/06/98 -0400, Peter H. Brenton wrote:

>Now you're making a couple of errors in my opinion.  First, the Imperium
>has moved *1* tech level in the last 20-40 years (say, 1070 to 1110),
>before that the Tech level changed by *2* in over 900 years (TL12 in M:0,
>TL14 by 1050 or before).  Our own Tech Level in 1998 has moved by some
>(debateable) measures 4 levels in just 50 years (TL4 to TL8, estimated).  I
>do not wish to debate the likelihood or reasons for such a slow tech
>advance (I didn't want to discuss Pirates for the same reasons), but it is
>part of the Imperium's history.

According to the MT Referee's Companion, TL12 was reached in -150
(Imperial), TL14 in 700 and TL15 in 1000. This gives two TLs in 850 years,
and the next one in 300 years. This gives an average of 350 - 400 years per
TL for the 3I.

For comparison the Viliani took 1065 years to go from TL9 to TL10, and a
further 3470 years to get to TL11. The Terrans took 23 years (presumeably
with the help of captured Viliani equipment) for the 9 - 10 step, 10 years
to get to TL11 and 188 years to get from TL11 to TL12. The Syleans took
1126 years to go from 10 to 11 and 500 to get to TL12.

This suggests that aside from the Terrans, who had a lot of gear to learn
from and a recent tradition of rapid advancement (and even they took nearly
200 years for the 11 - 12 jump, which they had to make by themselves), TL
advancement past TL8 or TL9 is expensive and difficult. This allied to the
3I's Vilani heritage makes for a very slow TL advancement rate.

IMO this means that like the sailing ships of days bygone the value of a
Travller ship is dependent on who worn it is, not on its chronological age.
In TNE this is shown by the way wear value affects prices, though IMO the
number of rebuilds the ship has been through should also be relevant as a
ship can only be rebuilt so many times, and each one is a little less
effective.



- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:23:02 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")

- -----Original Message-----
From: Brannon "Ben" Boren <brannonb@blarg.net>
Subject: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")


>Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>>
>> According to a Q&A in a _Travellers' Digest_ a 40 year old starship is
>> worth about 20 or 25% of original price.
>
>
>Something has to give on this issue. That's like saying that an aircraft
>built in 1958 is just as good as an aircraft built today.  Fact is that
>nobody manufactures an aircaft like those built in 1958 anymore. If you had
>an old one and tried to sell it, it would probably not sell AT ALL to a
>real business interest (i.e. a company that wanted to use it to transport
>passengers and cargo) - it might sell as an antique or curiosity.

>
How about the B-52?  Built in 1957 and with regular maintenance and TL
updates is still in service and will be for another 10 years.
>
>This should be even worse in the Imperium's high-tech environment, where
>one would think that 40 years would make an EVEN BIGGER difference in
>technological development. Pilots trained on modern spacecraft in the Imp
>Navy going down to 40 year old Traders would be like F-16 pilots trying to
>fly old B-25s - they could do it probably, but it'd be a *huge* step down
>for them. They'd notice the zillion pieces of missing technology (all the
>bells and whistles). No infrared cameras, no laser targeting, no computer
>navigation, no computer aided radar, no ground-avoidance system, and on and
>on.

>
TL15 is TL15 is TL15!  It don't matter if it's forty years old, it's still
TL15 with all the bells and whistles.
>
>Same deal for navigators and engineers. Could a U.S. Navy carrier's nuclear
>power technician also function on a WW2 era ship with boilers? Maybe, but
>he'd have a LOT to learn.
>
See above, it's still TL15......
>
>Has Traveller ever addressed the idea that technology does not stand still
>for 40 years while you pay off your ship?
>

But it does seem to stand still for whatever reason.  The only differences
will be window dressing if they are both the same tech level.
>
>There would have to be a corresponding increase in maintenence costs for
>older ships. Perhaps a monthly chance of breakdown and a roll to determine
>how much the repair costs. Also the annual maintenence cost should increase
>with the age of the ship to some degree.  Certainly though, even with these
>costs, an older ship, just like an older car today, is a much better buy
>than a new one if all you need is transportation from point A to point B (
>if you don't care about the cockpit having electric seat-warmers and
>adjustable cup-holders).

>
It'll have all of those things if they are both the same tech level.  Also
during the forty years things will wear out and need to be replaced.  As
with cars today some hold their value better than others.  You might want to
by a 1953 Corvette which sold for $1200 new.  It will cost you almost
$100,000 today if properly maintained and any restoration that was needed
was complete.
>
>Those new ships depriciate 10 MCr as soon as you fly them off the lot!  ;)
>

Got a friend who traded in a 1997 Intrepid (at a terrible loss) to buy a
1998 Expedition.
>
>Of course old ships also have a lot of Role-Playing value, as you force the
>crew to spend three days trying to figure out what is making that awful
>"scrinch-scrinch-scrinch-skreeeeeee..." sound that reverberates through the
>Navigator's cabin wall whenever the port side thruster assembly fires. Also
>there's the fact that the food dispenser only works if the cockpit
>environment controls are set below 40F... etc.
>
>Brannon "Ben" Boren
>
I like that, a ship with a few idiosyncrasies, gives it character.
Thom

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #553
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 4 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 554



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")
Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")
Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")
Re: Piracy
Re: Piracy
re: Older Starships
Re: Piracy
Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")
CD ROM index
Re: Piracy
Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")
Re: CD ROM index
Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")
Re: Imperial Navy taskings
Emperor Strephon

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 20:31:21 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")

Brannon "Ben" Boren wrote:

> Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> >
> > According to a Q&A in a _Travellers' Digest_ a 40 year old starship is
> > worth about 20 or 25% of original price.
>
> Something has to give on this issue. That's like saying that an aircraft
> built in 1958 is just as good as an aircraft built today.  Fact is that
> nobody manufactures an aircaft like those built in 1958 anymore. If you had
> an old one and tried to sell it, it would probably not sell AT ALL to a
> real business interest (i.e. a company that wanted to use it to transport
> passengers and cargo) - it might sell as an antique or curiosity.
>
> This should be even worse in the Imperium's high-tech environment, where
> one would think that 40 years would make an EVEN BIGGER difference in
> technological development.

I think you're making an assumption here based on 20th century Earththat is not
applicable to a traveller universe.  Significant changes in
technology, as reflected in Tech Levels, take a _long_ time to progess.
How old was the entire concept of practical aviation in 1958?  40years?
In 1998? Double that.  In 2098?  Solid.  How old will the routine practice
of interstellar flight be in a Traveller universe?  3 Millenia?  4?  A damn
long time.

Also consider the environment for starships.  They have to be tough.
I wouldn't get in one that I didn't think would last for 100 years with
proper maintenance.

> Pilots trained on modern spacecraft in the Imp
> Navy going down to 40 year old Traders would be like F-16 pilots trying to
> fly old B-25s - they could do it probably, but it'd be a *huge* step down
> for them.

Wow.  No offense, but that is a gross exaggeration.  Often, you'd actuallybe
stepping up.  TL at Milieu 0 is 12.  What was it for the Rule of Man?
Estimates range from 15-18, IIRC.

> Same deal for navigators and engineers. Could a U.S. Navy carrier's nuclear
> power technician also function on a WW2 era ship with boilers? Maybe, but
> he'd have a LOT to learn.

Behind first-hand practical experience, if such an engineer had any lack
ofunderstanding of working with biolers, he wouldn't be an enginner in my Navy.

> Has Traveller ever addressed the idea that technology does not stand still
> for 40 years while you pay off your ship?

Ships is built to last a loooooonnnnnnggg time.  Ask the Vilani.

> There would have to be a corresponding increase in maintenence costs for
> older ships.

Why?  It might actually get easier with incremental improvements.And of course,
ship and parts manufacturers that want to make
money would make backwards compabtible products.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 20:34:55 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")

dberry@hooked.net wrote:

>  As part of my training with the US Army, I learned to use a bayonet. This is
> a weapon  designed to turn a musket into a spear, and was last used to any
> great effect in 1917.

Merrill's Marauders had to use them a lot at the end of their march in Burma.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 20:43:27 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")

Michael Koehne wrote:

> Moin Andrew Akins,
>
> > I see no problem with 40 year old ships plying the space lanes, and I don't
> > think they'll be as different as you think.
>
>         well I see many problems with 40 year old ships. Perhaps you can
>         be happy to obtain a 40 year old yacht that had exelent service
>         and only a wear value of 15. Sometimes you see ship's only 20
>         year old that are worn out (60 or more) but most traders that
>         save resonable service during the last 40 year's will have a
>         wear value of 40 in their problem parts and around 20 (half)
>         in most others.

Ok, so 40 years of wear and tear on TL12-15 materials.  Big deal.If the stuff was
going to wear out at TL 8 speeds it wouldn't cost
so much.  How long have they been able to keep MIR up in space
with a bankrupt economy supporting it.
Wear and Tear on TL 12-15 materials should be measured in decades,
if not centuries, instead of years. Of course, sensitive things like Jump
Drives might require a good deal of maintenance to keep properly
calibrated.

> If a powerplant has 40% wear, its likely to have some problems

So, IYTU, everything wears down at 1%/year.  So after 100, its gone?
Hmm, I just saw a two century old ship sailing in Boston Harbor last
week.

>     Nobody would sell a 40 year old ship, if anything is fine.

Now you're making some sense!  ;-)

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 18:07:06 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy

>From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
>Subject: Re: Piracy
...
>>   Actually I view it as a state institution (it certainly is not a nation)
...
>But the question is how effective they really are at this. My view is that
>it will be more propaganda and less action from a government like this.

  Well, their success at external security is obvious, in the GDW TU.

>"We do this and that for you, so pay you taxes", while most of the money
>is used for apperance. The nobility needs their estates, servants, yachts,
>summerhouses, wintercastles. The navy needs the state of the art ships,
>cermonial uniforms. Parades, shows, displays eat money like crazy, leaving
>less for the actual security concerns. 

  OK. If you want the Imperial government to resemble the ancien regime
under Louis XVI as portrayed popularly, go for it. Hey, I sometimes read
GW products, although I draw the line at White Wolf stuff :)

  Seriously, though, given that the Spinward Marches probably has one of
the worst ratios of IN support to local tax revenues in the Imperium, why
doesn't the 3I let the Zho's have it and retreat to a narrower front? The
reduced defense outlays would give both a more secure front and more money
for anti-gravity palaces.

>But remember that the frontier and edges of the Imperium is only a
>bufferzone to keep enemies away from the capitals. That the Zhodani,
>Aslan, Varg, SW all wreck havoc here is not really that big an issue.

  If so, it's amazing that attempts to secede from the Imperium are so
rare. Do you have a reference for the OTU? This matters, because it
strongly implies that the 3I is largely a corrupt facade. You might be
thinking of the former Soviet Unions under Emperor Leonid :)

...
>Not if the pirates come to this world as traders of goods. Pirates will be
>the poeple that see to trade to worlds that no one else wants to trade
>with, because it really isn't worth it.

  I'll assume that such a backwater won't even have a noticeable port -
it couldn't if there weren't merchant traffic. OC, the world you've 
described is ideal for pirates to raid, too. They might feel quite a
bit different after that happens. By definition, there are things on
planet worth stealing, otherwise trade would be impossible.

  This ignores what might happen if the authorities find out about the
locals quaint little pastime.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 18:07:20 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Piracy
...
>>  So they get a good look at your vacc suit. So?
>
>Including it's make and model and state or wear (similary to
>analysing the state of a typewriter in a ransom note).  Also the
>hear you, and see the inside of your ship (unless you expect
>to sell the ship you took with them in it).  If my PC expected to
>interact personally with NPCs and not give any clues about who
>they are I would say no.

  So? "Make and model and state of wear" is only relevant if I'm
face to face with the authorities, in which case I'm screwed anyway.
Why not send over cannon-fodder rather than the skilled principals in
the operation? Use electronics to mask your voice? It's not like the
crew have cameras and recorders trainded on me - it's guns that are the
concern.

  The crew can be dumped in their launch, lifeboat, marooned, ransomed,
whatever. If this is impractical most hijackings are mass murders, yes?

>>>>Wouldn't the ship
>>>>itself actually contain potentially lethal info after the encounter,
>>>>and leaving it behind thus be more compromising?
>>>
>>>Like what?
>
>>  All the sensor (/fire control) info acquired during the intercept
>>(and battle if any), including camera or telescope work, particularly
>>prior to docking or cargo transfer.
>
>Yeah, maybe they might need to trash the computer data banks.  I
>don't see them needing to take the whole ship.

  Gee, I wonder how badly screwed the computer/ship/owner are with up
to a few MCr in damages there. Even worse, what if there's a repeater
downloading sensor data to a recorder in engineering, or the captains
cabin, or hardwired into the back of the cookie cupboard?

  I wonder of the authorities (or insurance companies) provide rewards
for material evidence leading to the termination of a pirate operation.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 18:07:32 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Older Starships

>From: "Brannon \"Ben\" Boren" <brannonb@blarg.net>
>Subject: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")
...
>This should be even worse in the Imperium's high-tech environment, where
>one would think that 40 years would make an EVEN BIGGER difference in
>technological development.
...
>Has Traveller ever addressed the idea that technology does not stand still
>for 40 years while you pay off your ship?

  Sort of. To keep the Imperium's TL playable, it's pretty strongly implied
that TL (whatever it means) doesn't change very quickly at all; witness
the centuries to go from TL 12 (M:0) to 15 (1000-1100). In other words, in
the OTU, technology _does_ stand still.

>There would have to be a corresponding increase in maintenence costs for
>older ships. Perhaps a monthly chance of breakdown and a roll to determine
>how much the repair costs. Also the annual maintenence cost should increase
>with the age of the ship to some degree.

  Try 0.1%, plus 0.1% per year of age; thus a ten year old ship is paying
~1$+% in maintenance annually, and this would increase to around 4% by the
time it was paid off. Add that a type R with 4 MCr of repairs annually could
start having some really interesting defects and selling the damn thing does
start to look attractive.

  Even better from a ref POV, manipulating the breakdown specifics is a Trav
favourite - trader busts its' J-drive in a backwater; being stuck for months
you might as well do whatever the system does provide in the way of presumed
profitable activities.

  OTOH, a Jump/Power failure in Jump space might be a low order of probability
result that gets a lot of contemplation from both crew and owners - time to
refurbish components (MCr 32 replacement, and scrap covers little more than
the removal costs of the previous unit?) or get the heck off the ship?

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 21:14:01 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Piracy

- -----Original Message-----
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, June 03, 1998 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: Piracy


>Thom Harris writes:
>
>> Hans,
>>     You didn't reply to the rest of my message so I'll quote it back to
you.
>>
>>"Don't get me
>>wrong here, I still feel that Pirates are a weak sister to other careers
>>available in the game.  There seems to be enough possibilities that it
could
>>become a viable career option if your Erol Flynn is all I'm saying.
>
>If by Eroll Flynning you mean ignoring logical ramifications and just
winging
>it, then I agree with you 100%. In fact, that's the way I run my TU. But
>viable in the sense that it makes sense, that I'd have to disagree with.
>
>>I also believe, like you, that the encounters table is weighed much too
>>heavily toward having a pirate attack than seems justified.  How do we
>>fix that in CT, we don't, lets try for T4.1.  Aahhhh, wait a sec, that
>>takes place back in year 0 so pirates can operate there effectively.
>
>Actually, I'm quite willing to give you an argument about that, only I'm
>not nearly as sure that I'm right and even less sure that I could prove
>it. But let me give you an example. Say that all merchant traffic goes
>through one system that has, say, 5 gas giants. Say further that the
>closest pirate haven is 50 parsecs away. Obviously the pirate has a very
>short window of opportunity: he has to make 17 jumps to get to the
>hunting ground and have only one or two weeks to catch his prey before
>he has to go back to his home port. If only one or two merchants per
>week goes through the system, the pirate's odds of choosing the right
>gas giant to lurk by is so low that you may not even need _any_ patrol
>ships to make piracy uneconomic. Or the authorities could patrol just
>one of the gas giants and protect any number of ships with only a few
>patrol ships. Or say that the pirate have is 4 jumps away but the pirate
>cannot take the ship with him. That would mean that even if he was
>absolutely sure of capturing a merchant when he reached the hunting
>ground, he would have spent three months procuring one load of cargo
>worth an average of Cr5000/dT, which wouldn't be enough to pay his
>expenses. In that case enforcement wouldn't be necessary at all either.
>
>Obviously things won't be quite that akward, but having gone over the
>figures a lot of times, I feel that if pirates can steal ships, then
>preventing even one loss is worth enough enforcement to deter them,
>while if they can only take cargoes, they can't make money enough to
>cover expenses. I'm talking about random cargoes, of course. If they
>could intercept specific exceptionally valuable cargoes there might
>be scope for them. But how could they do that?

>
Wait a minute, I conceded that CT was heavily weighted but we couldn't
change it, are you now saying that T4 M:0 is no longer a valid place to have
pirates?  There are practically NO borders on the Imperium, there isn't any
colonial navy, I doubt the existance of even SDB's in tons of systems and
you're telling me that you think that there is enough enforcement to keep
piracy away?  I don't think so. Obviously it would be random luck but think
of the money you could get for the capture of ANY jump ship thats being sold
to a TL7-8 planet.  More than likely it would be written off as "Lost In
Space".
>
>>Oh well, I guess we're stuck with what we got.  I would add however,
>
>>in CT it started a few years before the fringes were stable.  In the
>>ensuing years there were at least two frontier wars with the Zho's.
>>Hhhmmm, that makes about three - six years of a STABLE Empire so maybe,
>>just maybe, CT's tables weren't off after all......."
>
>Instability would seem to be a requirement for viable piracy, but I'm
>not at all sure that it is sufficient. The main problem arise from the
>fact that Traveller starships are expensive, but that armed ships are
>not all that much more expensive than unarmed.
>
The main problem with that reasoning is, most "War" ships have probably been
repositioned on the border to include armed merchants.  This leaves whole
HUGE areas that would be pretty much unprotected.  A few jumps and I'm sure
our enterprizing pirate could find several choice targets, Would you not
agree?
>
>>I think that the CT time line was roughly 1090 - 1016.  Not only were
there
>>wars with the Zho's but also the Vargr incursions were taking place.
>
>Ah. The Vargr have the same problem that other pirates have: They have to
>steal more than they expend to steal it. And if that isn't enough, if they
>grow too tiresome, the Imperium can treat their home ports the same way
they
>treat other systems that support pirates. The only power in that corner of
>the universe that can provide a sanctuary is the Consulate. Besides, the
>Vargr would at most be a problem in the coreward line of subsectors, not
>the entire Spinward Marches.
>

Not according to MT and specifically a location known as Depot.
>
>>It's
>>starting to seem that for the time period that the OTU is set in there was
a
>>great deal of strife and instability which would foment things like
piracy,
>>terrorists, star mercs et all.
>
>Well, how about providing me with a description of a pirate foray? Decide
>what kind of ship you have, how you got it and what financial conditions
>you have it under. Then tell me where in the Spinward Marches you start,
>how you find a victim, how you catch it, what you do with it afterwards
>and show me that you've made a profit.
>
>      Hans Rancke
>

Which Traveller do you want to use?  CT, I'll quote passages from printed
"canon" sources, same for MT and TNE.  The T4 Universe is available but what
time frame are we talking?  The problem you and I seem to be having is we
BOTH are reasonable people and we BOTH believe piracy (as a career field)
was over rated but, according to CT canon it did take place and was
considered to be more than just a nuisance.  Where does that leave us?  I'm
not going to spend hours (already spent too many) trying to change your mind
and you aren't going to change mine.  So I would like to call a truce.  I
will continue to use as much Traveller canon material as fits into my
playing universe and change those things that make NO sense what so ever.
What those things happen to be will be between me and my players.  All I
have left to say is have a nice day.
>      Hans Rancke

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 21:20:19 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, June 03, 1998 8:37 PM
Subject: Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")


>
>
>dberry@hooked.net wrote:
>
>>  As part of my training with the US Army, I learned to use a bayonet.
This is
>> a weapon  designed to turn a musket into a spear, and was last used to
any
>> great effect in 1917.
>
>Merrill's Marauders had to use them a lot at the end of their march in
Burma.
>
>Bloo
>
The last officially documented successful bayonet charge (in the U.S. Army)
was in Korea in the 50's a young LT (battlefield commission) Muellett
(spelling ?) received the Medal Of Honor for it.  I met him as a young
Specialist/5 in 1972.  He was a full Colonel then and I believe he retired
in 1976 back to Chattanooga, Tennessee.
Thom

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 21:34:17 EDT
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: CD ROM index

Partial Index to the Traveller-CD

	The following is a partial index to the Traveller-CD, which is in
no sense complete (as even I don't know all that is on it for sure).

TML digests (about 99% of them)
Xboat digests (about 99% again)
TNE-RCES digests (should be 100%)
Deckplans
Equipment (mostly MT, though others are available in the digests)
Ships (mostly MT, though others are available in the digests)
Vehicle designs (mostly MT, though others are available in the digests)
Sector maps (it should include all the DGP maps, plus 1120 and 1200 maps)
Some early playtest material (and potential product outlines)
Text from the various writer's conferences
Software (MAC and IBM, there are some problems with the MAC software though).
Spreadsheets (Lotus and Excel, economic models, ship design, whathaveyou).
HIWG working documents
Artwork by various Traveller artists
Errata (some, not all I think (and not T4). And an Index to WBH)
Utilities (IBM/Unix related, a grep utility and a unix-to-IBM text convertor)
Near Star list(s)
List of Astonomy sites
GW White Dwarf articles (some)
Judges Guild (map of Tancred(?))
Adventures (a couple of adventures if I recall correctly)

	And more material being added daily......


	About 10 years worth of Traveller material, about 90% of the Traveller
material I have is on the disk.



Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:28:34 -0700
From: Richard Hough <richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com>
Subject: Re: Piracy

>Ian again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>If pirate ships are exempted from annual maintainence at type B starports,
>are merchant ships ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>"I'm sorry _Beowulf_, your Imperial Safety Inspection is 6 months out
>of date...and a cursory inspection of your field repairs tells me you're
>going to have to pull that entire Grid Interface before we can recertify
>you. What, works fine? That's what they all say. You're not cleared
>to take off into our traffic pattern with this hunk of junk...."

I think the point Ian was making is that in the Traveller rules skipping
your annual maintenance is a quick way to, depending on which misjump rules
you use, turn your ship into a multi-million Cr writeoff, or a coffin.

>Dangerous and unreliable field maintenance can push the worst penalties
>of missed maintenance into the future for a long time, but the ship will pay
>a price of decreased operational life (that no merchant would do to his
>spacegoing capital investment), poorer reliability and even degraded
>performance.

Unfortunately the "decreased operational life" will be measured in months,
and the price they pay (using T4 misjump rules) will be their lives.
- --
Richard Hough
richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 21:38:40 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")

At 08:34 PM 6/3/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>dberry@hooked.net wrote:
>
>>  As part of my training with the US Army, I learned to use a bayonet.
This is
>> a weapon  designed to turn a musket into a spear, and was last used to any
>> great effect in 1917.
>
>Merrill's Marauders had to use them a lot at the end of their march in Burma.

Yes, but that was a case of not really having much else to work with.  As
an individual weapon when your rifle has malfed or you've run out of ammo,
fine, but as a general, regular part of warfare?

I agree with Bill Maudlin's cartoon showing a WWII Army cook exclaiming in
surprise to his buddy "Hey, this can opener fits on the end of my rifle!"
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 02:14:37 EDT
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Re: CD ROM index

In a message dated 6/3/98 9:26:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jamstar@glasscity.net writes:

	[[ Any of the od CT published stuff on it, or is there some licensing hassles
prohibiting it?  ]]

	Yes and Yes.
	There are currently a few White Dwarf CT articles on the disk, more will be
added, but probably not soon.
	There is also part of one Judges Guild product on the disk too, and more will
be added eventually.
	I also have permission for the Keith Brother's Marischel products.
	Other companies are being worked on slowly, especially as some of them are
hard too track down, and than of course I have to find the volunteers to scan
and proof the material (or send me what they ,ight have done already).

	If the CD proves popular enough, their should end up being yearly updates at
a cheaper cost. It'll be better organized and accessible hopefully, there will
be much more material. And a fair amount of the "Classic" material.

	And of course their's the ongoing GDW-CD project which is doing all the GDW
Traveller material. Which is going along slowly but surely (and volunteers are
always desired for both projects).

Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 08:35:22 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")

On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Steve Daniels wrote:

> 
> 
> Michael Koehne wrote:
> 
> Ok, so 40 years of wear and tear on TL12-15 materials.  Big deal.If the stuff was
> going to wear out at TL 8 speeds it wouldn't cost
> so much.  How long have they been able to keep MIR up in space
> with a bankrupt economy supporting it.
> Wear and Tear on TL 12-15 materials should be measured in decades,
> if not centuries, instead of years. Of course, sensitive things like Jump
> Drives might require a good deal of maintenance to keep properly
> calibrated.

But see how much trouble it is in. Things failing right and left. In
Traveller there are no rules to cover this. The only effect is a chance of
drive failure if you miss your annual maintance. TNE wear values relly
makes this much more realistic.  

> 
> > If a powerplant has 40% wear, its likely to have some problems
> 
> So, IYTU, everything wears down at 1%/year.  So after 100, its gone?
> Hmm, I just saw a two century old ship sailing in Boston Harbor last
> week.
> 

This is a TNE rule. The wear value is a function of age, maintance and
use. A part only recieving maintance by the ship engineer and used
continously is going to have this wear value in 40 years. Annual
maintance, new parts or a new power plant of course counteracts this wear. 


> >     Nobody would sell a 40 year old ship, if anything is fine.
> 
> Now you're making some sense!  ;-)
> 
> Bloo

Cut down on the sarcasm will you, it really isn't polite to attack
someones opinions in this way. If you have a problem with his reasoning,
state where you think he is mistaken and tell us way. In a calm and polite
way.


Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 00:13:36 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Navy taskings

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
...
>>  True. I've yet to see an elaboration of why a Navy that seems to possess
>>such a vast (and immensely expensive) fleet, including (pardon the phrase)
>>presumed astronomical quantities of small escort/patrol/picket/raider ships
>>(not even counting local navies and non-starships) would be either unable or
>>unwilling to deploy them in any meaningful internal security effort.
>
>Well, the point I was making is that the Navy doesn't "have money
>left over".  What you are getting to here is the issue that the
>Navy has all those ship it owns for "free" in peace times.  The
>issues of whether retasking those ships detracts from readyness and
>wether their are enough to wipe out piracy (getting into the
>sub issues of the number of ships it takes to patrol a system)
>were all reacent covered in depth.

  Covered in depth, yes. There's no evidence that partial tasking of
wartime light warships to internal security roles represents any real
reduction in their military readiness.

  As for the rest, obviously the issue of Imperial Navy preparations
and deployments needs to be discussed again. Perhaps a limited case
such as the Spinward Marches and Corridor will be sufficient.

  Of course, the "money left over" issue originally referred to whether
or not the Imperium would have the capacity for internal security patrols.
You agreed that the Navy will spend money on internal security. You seem
to feel that they will not or can not do this at a level sufficient to 
make piracy exceedingly rare.

  Given that we can probably ball-park the number of escorts (or at least
non-Battleships/Tankers/Assault transports, although the thought of even
a 3Kt DD let alone a CL running a sweep horrifies me) that the Imperium
keeps in peacetime service, how many of those ships do you feel would be
available for internal security tasks (or training operations indistinguishable
from same) during peacetime?

>>>No.  In my proposal the additional taxes produced a direct
>>>savings that both help pay for the taxes and makes there
>>>acceptance easier.
>
>>  Try that again? I thought it was the presumed investment in the
>>jump-station/tanker system that produced the saving, and that the
>>taxes were what paid for the massive expansion of the Imperial Navy
>>tanker assets that your last suggestion seemed to require.
>
>Well, dropping out your slipping in the term "massive" (and noteing
>that tankers weren't the only alternative) both the investment and

  Massive applies to the huge increase needed in tanker assets (IN to fit
the strategic requirements) that makes possible the failure to adopt the
system on the frontiers or in Ilelish in the period between development
and the Rebellion.

  Tankers were, however, your latest theory for implementing jump-stations
without the negative strategic implications that might have substantially
delayed deployment of said system in the frontier zones, such that the
lack of said system in MT wouldn't comprise a definitive statement as to
their impossibility.

>the protection make them possible.  If the tankers weren't necessary
>then we can just drop them.  If they are necessary, then those paying
>for them will see them as necessary for the savings.

  The tankers were your proposal to evade the huge strategic liability
that freighters relying om jump-stations represent. If necessary from
the POV of the Navy, then _why_ would shippers see the taxes as necessary
when they'll reap the savings of the technology regardless of the 
military repercussions?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 04:07:32 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Emperor Strephon

What are all of the titles of Emperor Strephon?  He's Emperor of the Third
Imperium, Archduke of the Domain of Sylea and Marquis of Usdiki, but what
else?  

Also, does anyone know all (or any more) of the titles of Archdukes Dulinor
(Duke of Dlan), Adair, Tranian, and Ishuggi?  We have all of Norris' well
down, but i'm interested (for various reasons) in the others too.  Actually
only Adair is really important to me at the moment, but i'm interested in the
others, too.

Gary

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #554
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 4 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 555



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Coyns
RE: Trav Characters Good or Evil?
RE: Blowing up Ships
RE: New Computerized Rifle
RE: The Imperial Nobility (was Imperial Navy taskings)
Re: Vargr Mindset (was Re: Piracy)
Re: The Imperial Nobility
Subs & Sandwiches (short!)
Traffic definitions
Re: Piracy (long)
Re: Piracy and Bases
Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")
Re: Hijacking summation?
Re: Coyns
Re: The Imperial Nobility
Re: Piracy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 04:06:37 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Coyns

Have the 36 Coyns been fully detailed?  I'm thinking in the Droyne AM.  I know
6 have diagrams of Humaniti, Droyne, Vargr, Aslan, k'kree, and Hivers, but
what are the other 30?  

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 09:21:22 +0100 
From: Hugh Foster <HughFoster@Servisair.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Trav Characters Good or Evil?

Can anyone say "Dungeon Crawl" ? :)


Best regards,

Hugh Foster
System Support Analyst

Servisair (UK) Ltd.
hughfoster@servisair.co.uk
www.servisair.co.uk



> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Jeremy Reaban [SMTP:frankpul@stlnet.com]
> Sent:	Tuesday, June 02, 1998 8:47 PM
> To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject:	RE:Trav Characters Good or Evil?
> 
	Look at the first 3 adventures published. One's apparently about
an insane
	ship (don't have it, so I don't know), one is about ransacking a
research
	station (to rescue chirpers), and one is about exploring an
Ancient's base.
> 	 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 09:21:22 +0100 
From: Hugh Foster <HughFoster@Servisair.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Blowing up Ships

High armour values don't mean diddly when you're talking about
_internal_ explosions; in point of fact, as the armoured hull confines
the blast, they make it much worse. Not many ships have 120-point
internal bulkheads (IISS Titanic, perhaps?)


Best regards,

Hugh Foster
System Support Analyst

Servisair (UK) Ltd.
hughfoster@servisair.co.uk
www.servisair.co.uk



> -----Original Message-----
> From:	anders.backman@aniware.se [SMTP:anders.backman@aniware.se]
> Sent:	Tuesday, June 02, 1998 4:22 PM
> To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject:	Re: Blowing up Ships
> 
> >1) turn a bulkhead porous to H2 via a slow acting reaction (ie,
> >non-explosive) into a compartment with an electrical short.
> 
> Hydrogen + O2 explosions are pretty weak compared to the normal ABSURD
> armour on most Traveller ships including civilian.
> 
> 
> /Anders Backman
> Aniware AB
> anders.backman@aniware.se
> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 09:21:22 +0100 
From: Hugh Foster <HughFoster@Servisair.co.uk>
Subject: RE: New Computerized Rifle

The ACR is born!


Best regards,

Hugh Foster
System Support Analyst

Servisair (UK) Ltd.
hughfoster@servisair.co.uk
www.servisair.co.uk



> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Smart, David J (David) [SMTP:David.Smart@ons.octel.com]
> Sent:	Tuesday, June 02, 1998 5:03 PM
> To:	'traveller@mpgn.com'
> Subject:	New Computerized Rifle
> 
> Alliant Techsystems team to develop new US individual weapon 
> 
> A US/European team led by Defence Systems Group has been selected to
> develop the Objective Individual Combat Weapon (OICW), the US
> military's
> next-generation individual weapon. The OICW will replace the M16 rifle
> and M203 grenade launcher used by US Forces.
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 09:21:22 +0100 
From: Hugh Foster <HughFoster@Servisair.co.uk>
Subject: RE: The Imperial Nobility (was Imperial Navy taskings)

The monarchy receives an income from the government, which is raised
from taxes paid by British subjects, who technically speaking they own
as vassals. Though most of us wouldn't like to be treated as such....


Best regards,

Hugh Foster
System Support Analyst

Servisair (UK) Ltd.
hughfoster@servisair.co.uk
www.servisair.co.uk



> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Brannon "Ben" Boren [SMTP:brannonb@blarg.net]
> Sent:	Tuesday, June 02, 1998 5:19 PM
> To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject:	The Imperial Nobility (was Imperial Navy taskings)
> 
> "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> >   The money flowing through the nobilty will be a big budget.
> 
> Steven Hudson wrote:
> >   Isn't the nobility self-supporting?
> 
> 
> Good Question.
> 
> Is the British Monarchy self-supporting today?  I was under the
> impression
> that the royalty (including far-reaching cousins, etc) received some
> sort
> of government subsidy (that's a nice house the Queen lives in, eh?).
> Can
> someone who knows more about the subject contribute their insight on
> this
> matter?
> 
> 
> This is the way I see it in my Traveller Universe - Barons and above
> receive some sort of Imperial stipend. After all, you can't have the
> rank
> and file people seeing the Nobilty doing the same things as the
> commoners! 
> The nobility have to "keep up appearances," even if it means
> supporting the
> lazy royal cousins.
> 
> Ben
> 
> --
> Brannon "Ben" Boren
> brannonb@blarg.net
> http://www.mog.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 01:14:04 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr Mindset (was Re: Piracy)

Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote

> >the Vargr incursions were taking place.
> 
> Ah. The Vargr have the same problem that other pirates have: They have > to steal more than they expend to steal it.

Are you sure?  I thought the reason a lot of Vargr became Corsairs was
that being Corsairs was _charismatic_. 

[Alien Module 3 Vargr pg 16-17 indicates that Vargr gain Charisma both
by rolling on the skill table and by rolling on the sucess table.  Vargr
with stat minimums gain positive DM's to this roll, and willl therefore
roll higher, and will therefore gain more Charisma.  Since Corsair
requires lower stats [INT 8+ and CHR 5+ both give +1] to gain these
bonuses thatn most of the other careers more Vargr will be eligible for
these DM's.  Therefore Vargr _will_ gain charisma faster as Corsairs
than in most other careers. Only slightly faster but hey these are
_Vargr_ we are talking about]

Aekh kfaegzokhin zersakha vargr; kfaegzoukhin zersakh kuvargr. - Gvegh
Proverb

A Vargr without charisma is no better than a rock; a rock with charisma
is better than an entire pack. - Galanglic Translation

MT's Vilani & Vargr pg 58

> And if that isn't enough, if they  grow too tiresome, the Imperium can > treat their home ports the same way they  treat other systems that    > support pirates.

So you are saying that the Imperium, which is canonically portrayed in
MT supplements, as being able to defend itself against Vargr incursions
is in fact strong enough to mount search & destroy missions into the
territories of Vargr states with about the same degree of difficulty
that, say, the USA had in taking Grenada?  

IMHU & IMTU the Imperial Navy does not want to create a causus beli
among the Vargr.  If the Imperial Navy mounts a big raid on a Vargr
world that supports "too much" piracy the Vargr may well use the
opportunity to preach a Jihad against the Vargr.  If this cry is taken
up by a charismatic Vargr it may well sucseed.  Remember that few Vargr
consider raiding to be a less than legitimate business endeavor and many
may well be incapable of _believing_ that this worlds pro pirate stance
is the reason for the raid.  They are more likely to believe that the
bizzare, faceless, despotic, coglike, alien hegemony has moved against
them because they can.  The Vargr obviously [to Vargr] can not let the
Imperials get away with this.  If you let the non Vargr [and therefore
very low charisma] Imperials dis you like this what does this say about
_your_ charisma.  After all Charisma is really what matters your chances
of sucess or profit are secondary.  Of course this does mean that
pirates who are loosing money will eventually loose money and wither up
but every year in the Vargr extents tens of billions of Vargr hit the
magic age of 18, get thrown out on their tails, and have to find
_something_ to do.

[Enter Vargr mode]

What shall _I_ do?  Being a Corsair is galmarous and charismatic. _I_
will strike them form out of the sun, render them helpless, grab their
posessions, and use them to create my own pirate band.  _I_ will be in
charge.  Everyone will have to do what _I_ say.  _I_ will have
_charisma_. _I_, _I_, _I_ will have _CHARISMA_. (laughs maniacally)

[Exit Vargr mode]

Every day this scenario repeats itself millions of times throughout the
Vargr extents.  If the smart Corsair bands take advantage of this they
will have lots of manpower [er Vargrpower ?].

Vargr do not do _anything_ for mere money.  The only reason money
matters is that it can buy things.  Money does not give status -
Charisma gives status.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 01:26:41 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: The Imperial Nobility

dberry@hooked.net wrote

> >> Rebellion Sourcebook specifically mentioned that Strephon supported 
> >> his nephews Varian, and Lucan, and even gave them apartments in the 
> >> palace, but then again, it implied that they (especially Lucan) 
> >> were were of a pain in the A--, than the British Royals. :-)

> >But did they have jug ears & tend to fall off of riding beasts while 
> >showing off the Imperial bloodline?

> Well, we know that Strephon seemed more fond of sailing than ruling. >(TD #9)

Strephon may have prefered sailing to ruling but he, arguably unlike the
other royals we are discussing, was more capable of ruling than sailing.

Emperor Strephon [at the time of his "assasination" in 1116]

667ABH	[they list his Soc as only F, which is obviously an error, unless
you wish to argue that these are the "real" stats for the assasinated
clone]	Age 66

Admin - 6	Leader - 5	Persuasion - 2	Linguistics -2	
History - 1	Artisan -1	Samll Watercraft -1 

The CT stats for Strephon (TD #9 pg 17)

Admin _6_	Leader _5_

These are pretty good evidence that Strephon was a good leader.  They
just happened to be overshadowed by his disadvantage - Enemy: Dulinor

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 02:39:43 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Subs & Sandwiches (short!)

(the spirited debate about definitions of traffic levels
 has  left the nest and taken flight...)
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Subs & Sandwiches (shorter)
...
>Well, it doesn't have to be of _no_ interest, that is the
>requirement for _no_ traffic.  It has to be a lesser interest,
>but then that is the central characteristic of a low traffic

  Point taken.

>system.  Being in close proximity will gain _some_ systems
>traffic they wouldn't otherwise have, if they are on the
>way to someplace else.

  Agreed.

>>high-pop worlds) - "medium traffic routes" is a very rough term, but
>>I would suggest that the first step down from high traffic is going
>>to be a reduction in the truly large mega-corp freighters.
...
>No.  I depends on why they are medium traffic.  They might have
>one big harvest of a cash crop and their traffic consists mostly
>of  huge transports at harvest.  Or they could ship out modest amounts
>of something all the time and rely on smaller for frequent transports.

  OK. I think that was mentioned in a parallel post. Would you agree that
for most non-High-Pop (9+) worlds that would be the def'n of medium traffic?

>But the point is that we _are_ considering backwater systems.
>If you want a system of "I'm coming" messages to work, it has
>to work everywhere. 

  That's interesting. By making hijacking _very_ difficult in some
systems, you allow the focussing of remaining resources on those
systems which still present a problem (should they choose). I don't
see how "has to work everywhere" follows.

>                 Otherwise you aren't eliminating piracy
>or hijacking, you are just pushing it off to different system.

  Eliminate? How about reduce, as I doubt that elimination is possible.

>I don't think piracy will occur at high traffic systems and
>so I don't think such a system be used there because there will
>be no need for it.

  OK. OC, the outer systems of some such systems may still have possibilities.

>[Though I have stated that I don't think this would be 100%

  Gee, we seem to have a problem with "impossible", and now "100%". How
about as soon as I claim those things you start with those labels, eh?

>proof against hijacking and I don't see how someone expecting
>you helps if you simply don't show up.]

  If you can't fake being the passengers and crew, then you've got
very real problems. OC, if you seize the ship in time to reset the
Jump, that's different, but it means the danger period is quite short.

...
>Well, any system that has, on average, afew ships a day will have
>enough traffic to be worth piracy, but not enough traffic to
>guarantee that you have a ship leaving before you (random variation
>will produce gaps).

  I'd be interested to hear what any statisticians might have to say,
assuming an average of 3 ships/day, and the 2-3 days before departure
being tha maximum relevant. OC, this isn't about _guaranteed_ availability
of this service, merely that it radically reduces the field for hijackers
(IIRC).

>> ii) what if it's sent via a local courier companies mail container?
>>
>>  Even if you do (why?) have such a message hand delivered by the deck
>>officer of another vessel it seems deliberately ridiculous to assume that
>>sending ahead a message confirming your ETA, when you've already announced
>>your departure time and destination (to get custom) will compromise your
>>business dealings in any meaningful way. Would you care to specify what
>>portion of the picture here I've missed?
>
>What customer?  If you are hiring a courier, then you have to pay

  A passenger or someone shipping freight with you. A "courier companies
mail container"; no personnel take passage with it.

>his salary and his passage.  And yes, knowing when you are showing
>up to trade _does_ give your competition a leg up on you.

>>                                deliberately ridiculous to assume that
>>sending ahead a message confirming your ETA, when you've already announced
>>your departure time and destination (to get custom) will compromise your
>>business dealings in any meaningful way. 

  Again, seeing's as announced ETA was a given, you're being deliberately
ridiculous?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 03:30:27 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Traffic definitions

  Given the economic predominance of the pop 9+ (Hi-Pop?) worlds is
it not accurate to state that these worlds are the destinations or
sources of the majority of shipping tonnage in the Imperium?

  Assuming that at least 6,000 of the 3I's 11,000 worlds are population
level 5 or less (and P multiplier 5) gives 6K x0.5 million = 3x10^9
population. A single Pop 9 (P multiplier 5) world has 5x10^9 people.
Given that GDP per capita is largely defined as being linear in Traveller,
then that one system (of _hundreds_ like it in the Empire) has a greater
economy and thus more traffic (not necessarily in a direct relation)
than the bottom half (by pop) of the worlds in the Imperium _combined_. 

  Thus:  "By definition, the vast majority of traffic (at least by tonnage)
is to ("originating or terminating at") high-traffic systems".

  Comments?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 03:42:04 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy (long)

>From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
>Subject: Piracy (long)
...
>However what I want to talk about here is how the pirates are supposed to
>actually catch their victims, take them over and get away before the Navy
>arrives.

  Remember, there is a lot of scope for pirate actions where a rapid 
response isn't very practical - most of the system, for example. OC,
a career pirate waiting for a target may be uneconomic.

>pirate will have to come alongside the victim and match vectors. This is
>going to be impossible to disguise and is very unlikely to be in accordance
>with local traffic control, let alone astrogation regulations. As soon as
>the pirate refuses to alter course they have given their game away.

  My big worry (and largely only because of grav-focus lasers, I guess)
is that having matched vectors to actually acquire value from the target,
what prevents any responding vessel from opening fire at that point?
While there may be an issue of having a beam density capable of doing
non-sensor damage at a 4 LS range, a pure ballistic target (either disabled
or unwilling to evade) should be not much more difficult to hit than it
would be at 1 LS or even 10,000 km.

  Is that analysis correct from a physics/fire control POV?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 22:39:15 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Piracy and Bases

Someone, I forget who, said you needed a large population 
to support a A Starport, 
I was looking through the "Galactic" files, and discovered 
Bahadur (0715 Sabine/Deneb) A326230-E  

It's got 100 people, and an A class starport -does that 
mean it can only build 50 tons of ship per year? (or is 
that it has 50t of dockspace available?  

How do they man the starport? TL-14? How do
they run the industry with only 100 people?

On a somewhat related question, it seems to me that part of 
the reason modern aeroplanes are expensive is the short 
runs of production. If I spend 2 billion designing and 
testing a new fighter, and they only order 200 of them, then 
I need to charge a lot to cover the research bill, not 
counting the actual cost of the craft. 

Take something like the venerable Scout/courier. If it's 
been around in more or less that configuration for a few 
hundred years with a production run of tens or hundreds 
of thousands, then I'd expect it to get real cheap, even brand 
new.

Consider also the use of robots. If you're building that
many craft, it's probably worth building a robotic
production line. If I've got the robots and I live in a
system with asteroids and a gas giant, then it seems to me
I should be able to get the raw materials for squat (not
even the life-support, since all the shuttles getting the
raw materials would be unmanned) and I can build more
robots with those materials if I have to. Once I have
enough robots, I can churn out my one design, or any
others compatible with the machinery in my new "factory"
for just about nothing - The energy requirements can
either be met with significant amounts of Solar energy, or
some cheap Fusion plants (I just build some more fusion
plants - I need to be able to do that to build the ships.)

Energy is cheap, information is the key. If I know what 
components are in a 20MCr sensor array and how to put them 
together, is there any reason I couldn't build it from raw 
materials given appropriate tools? For a total cost of 
$23-45?

At what TL do robots become useful enough to do this 
sort of work? I would expect that I could turn out ships 
reasonably cheaply using this method. Once you've got rid 
of the majority of the skilled labour costs, and the raw 
material costs, whats the expensive bit in the manufacture? 
The robots? With an appropriate starter kit and a TL12 
CD-Rom of "Useful robot designs" I should be able to build 
more, and once I have enough, use them to build and work in 
the factory. I can't see it being horrifically expensive if 
the raw materials are there, just that it might take some 
time. 

Can anyone see any obvious flaws here?

(BTW how rare is Lanthanum? )

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 21:16:38 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")

Someone wrote:
> > There would have to be a corresponding increase in maintenence costs for
> > older ships.

Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu> replied 
> Why?  It might actually get easier with incremental improvements.And of course,
> ship and parts manufacturers that want to make
> money would make backwards compabtible products.

Because for the first year, everything is new, and nothing 
is likely to need replacing. That's probably true the 
second year as well. After five years, you might have to 
replace the things that weren't designed to last that long. 
After 20 years you've probably replaced half the parts. In 
a 40 year cycle you're likely to have to spend a lot more 
in the last 10 years than the first 10 years.

And why would someone design something that had to be 
replaced every x years during the life of the ship? because 
it is probably cheaper that way, not to mention that the 
parts in question can be engineered to a lower spec, and 
thus be lighter, smaller, and easier to work with as well.
Thus short term benefits with longer term costs - swings 
and round abouts.

Steve


 
- --
Ulf fra Siaelland          wulf@sea.southern.co.nz
Quarterly Gules and Argent
Southron Gaard, Caid

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 04:00:35 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Hijacking summation?

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Hijacking summation?
...
>>   Which brings us back to several interesting points:
>> i) how big can a pirate vessel be expected to be?
>
>Part of the problem is the approach that you deterime
>one way that piracy would be expected to work and then
>figure out ways it would be stopped.  The real answer
>is that it will be whatever does work.

  Correct! Clearly it's absurd to proclaim that piracy will commonly
occur in ways that are provably impractical. It seems somewhat odd to
settle on a method and then try to adjust the canon universe to fit.

>> ii) how enormous a crime can they expect to pull off before they become
>> someone's annual maneuvers? 
>
>You can't say this for sure and it depends on who "someone"
>is.  If you are talking about detail x ships to find them,
>then the loses to that pirate will have to be seen as being
>worth those resources.

  Again, I use question marks for technical reasons. Further, I think
we've gone over your curious insistence that proposals that you disagree
with have to match some bizarre ideological view that exceedingly narrow
economic analyses should be applied to fundamentally political decisions.

...
>>   As pointed out previously on the list, a fuel station at the
>> 100-D limit will naturally involve quite a bit of an establishment,
...
>> traffic for a jump-fuel-station then the above seems almost inevitable,
>> barring a strange traffic pattern (small quantities of bulk freighters).
>
>Transhipping may grow eventually.  But they aren't required
>for such a system and supposing a situation in which
>bases big enough to allow the services listed doesn't 
>argue against a system for fuel only.

  Remember, while "high (internal) capacity" ships are economically
advantageous because they don't have to carry their own fuel, _any_
ship is better off with the improved turnaround from not having to
land that's obtained by using a facility at the 100-D limit.

  Oh, and there's the reference to odd traffic patterns.

>> iii) weren't these jump stations last seen as Imperial Navy auxiliary tankers
>> in your latest case for why the systems implementation would have been so
swift
>> that its' lack of mention in MT would make the system itself uncanonical?
>
>They were _one_ example out of a number of ways in
>which they could be implimented.  But in any case, 
>you would still just need a big ship with a lot
>of fuel and hoses you could pull away fast.

  They were the last (IIRC) effort of yours to evade other presuemd
flaws in the implementation program. If you abandon them so quickly
why did you bother to propound them as a solution in the first place?

>> iv) if these non-TankerRon type stations couldn't beat up a little raider
>> (~500 Dt?) then how could they not be an immense strategic Achilles' heel?
>
>Because they can be hidden on asteroids or moved under
>planetary defenses, or maybe you have two are three of
>them.  I see nothing in them that would even make them
>all that expensive.

  Why not install weapons if they're "ships" rather than tanks with pumps?
OC, once hiding their dependent shipping tonnage is still screwed.

...
>crime before hand.  I have no objection to the Imperium
>tasking ships to hunt a string if piracies...

  OC, piracy, like bank robberies, is a crime that will occur in
sprees if prevention isn't capably attempted.

...
>Sure.  I never said it wasn't.  I think there will be a cost
>associated with them and they will be used to the degree
>that the need is seen to justify the cost.

  The explicit cost of the available resources will be very low,
and given the Imperiums reason for being the justification easy.
All IMO, of course.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 12:59:17 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Coyns

>Have the 36 Coyns been fully detailed?  I'm thinking in the Droyne AM.  I know
>6 have diagrams of Humaniti, Droyne, Vargr, Aslan, k'kree, and Hivers, but
>what are the other 30?
>
>Gary

There is a table in Twilights Peak (and I think Aliens Droyne) where is
Coyn is described with a word. How this word is represented as a picture I
have ni idea.
My main PC in my campaign believes (wrongly) that she has psi and she is
constantly casting Coyns before doing anything important, the funny thing
is that the outcome generally fits the casting which only proves the
gullibility of the mind or does it...


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 19:07:44 +0800 (WST)
From: skribe <skribe@amber.com.au>
Subject: Re: The Imperial Nobility

On 04-Jun-98 Peter Newman wrote:
> Strephon may have prefered sailing to ruling but he, arguably unlike the
> other royals we are discussing, was more capable of ruling than sailing.

You get what you pay for.  The British monarchy haven't truly ruled for a
very long time (since John?), unlike Stephon, who was an absolute ruler.  What
you get from the Brits is tradition and history, but most of all figureheads
that are supposed to be examples of what it means to be truly British. 
Unfortunately, they have become examples of what it means to be a 19th
century Brit.  Currently they are more use to the British economy as a
tourist attraction than as a serious political force.  That's not to say they
are powerless, but they're still trained to be figureheads and not rulers. 

A few centuries of inbreeding might have something to do with the weakness in
their bloodline too ;)

- ---
skribe <skribe@amber.com.au>

00:00 1st January, 2001: The Queen is dead.  Long live the republic!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 20:27:24
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Piracy

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: Piracy
>
>IMTU Pirates seldom have competent Navigators to spare - or
>competent Engineers, Medics, or even Pilots. Most people with 
>such skills can get (and keep) less risky jobs that pay better.
>

*grin* like the Scout Service, with that 7+ survival roll *grin*

Hmmm, starmercs caught on the wrong side of a losing contract, Free Traders
who went broke ... if piracy is viable then I think you will be able to
find the ethically-challenged spacers.

>Also, as I said a couple of times, the skillset and contacts needed to 
>sell a stolen ship for profit was far rarer IMTU than what you needed
>to sell stolen cargos. You could even have navigation computers
>on your target ship that won't go anywhere _except_ the route
>they've been subsidized for, without some heavy-duty and time
>consuming hacking. (Such computers, and locks on computers that
>need to be reset by bank representatives, have been mentioned
>in JTAS sources, so aren't only IMTU.)
>

Hmmm. Why not link these up to the doors, preventing anyone opening the
hatch ?

>As for bringing a spare Far Trader with you, if you had a spare Far Trader,
>why not (by your thinking) just sell it and retire? :)
>

*grin* Because for the moment I am assuming piracy is viable, and figuring
out the best way to do it.

>Ian again:
>As I said, "minimally capable". Ships like this might specialize in
>threatening mining workshacks, pouncing trasport shuttles
>or other sorts of "chicken stealing" - or might (due to their
>innocuous nature) be the member of the pirate clan that _does_
>go to legitimate ports for spares or intelligence.

I actually think this sort of chicken stealing in the outsystem is the form
piracy is most likely to take.

>Ian again:
>"I'm sorry _Beowulf_, your Imperial Safety Inspection is 6 months out
>of date...and a cursory inspection of your field repairs tells me you're
>going to have to pull that entire Grid Interface before we can recertify
>you. What, works fine? That's what they all say. You're not cleared
>to take off into our traffic pattern with this hunk of junk...."
>

I can *very* easily imagining a banker saying that to someone who is about
to risk misjump in their multi-multi-million credit investment ...

>
>You don't carry a military load-out unless you're a licensed mercenary
>(or a pirate). An honest merchant isn't getting 3 10-ton fighters into
>his cargo bay unless he does some dishonest things.

"If the Navy will not protect the merchant shipping of this Sector, then My
Lord Duke, the Merchant Shipping must protect the Navy".

>
>Jump drive is precise on a Parsec scale, not a planetary one. Space is
>big, traffic volume is high enough, there will soon be someone who jumps
>in within your intercept cone but outside what you think are the intercept
>cones of the local gendarmes. Your "hanging out" is probably you jumping
>in to the outer system and slowly making your way sunward, like a 
>low-G merchant on an incoming transit after a poor jump-exit. If a patrol
>craft decides to light all candles and come storming out after every
>sub-1000tn tramp that jumps short, they will be one out-of-position and
>worn out patrol ship 90% of the time.

This requires shrinking sensor ranges so the mainport cant keep track of
the outsystem or our hypothetical pirate will have to accelerate on a
course to the starport, which will do nasty things to their chances of
intercepting ships. 

>
>And I'm sure that, barring planetary defenses, a Pirate would _love_ 
>to loot a planet, even a low-tech one. It's just easier to defeat
>a patrol cruiser in open space (you can see where it is, for example)
>than it is to defeat that planetary missile base that keeps throwing
>missiles at you from the other side of the planet - especially if your
>loadout is laser-based.

Lasers are actually pretty decent at taking out missiles. But I take your
point.

>
>Ian again:

>You're talking a starmerc or military Q-ship here - either of which,
>encountered unawares, would ruin a pirate's day. Meson guns and
>particle accelerators, even bay weapons in general are military-grade
>weapons with military-grade restrictions IMTU. I'm sure that many
>pirate careers are ended by encounters with just such a "gee it
>sure _looked_ like a Fat Trader!" ship.

*grin* no, I'm talking about a woeful experiment in civilian grade
weaponary ... it's only 20 megajoules fer chrissake. Uncle Hengabar would
probably cancel Ditzie's allowance if he heard about it. Heck, it can very
nearly make money hauling cargo.

But seriously, if piracy is a threat, then you will get an evolution in
traders towards bigger and better-armed ships, to force concentration
against concentration.

I believe there would also be heavily lobbying of the appropriate
authorities for more potent weapons to be made available to merchants ("Of
course we're a licenced StarMerc Orbital Support Element. The cargo
hauling's just a sideline")

>Ian again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Because the captain used the twenty minutes of interception time to
>put a two-week timelock on his ship's nav programs. Because you know
>that the insurance company will write off the cargo, but send a flotilla
>of starmercs after the ship. Because the pirate captain doesn't trust
>_anyone_ with the navigation coordinates of the Pirate base but himself.
>Because you'd need the cooperation of the crew for an entire week get the
>ship safely in and out of jump, and have to give said crewman enough
>computer access that she could activate all the anti-hijack stuff against
>the two or three guards you could spare as a prize crew.

Shooting captains who do that would discourage the others, I think. The
risk of the pirate intercept being an inside job is just too high to do a
non-owner/captain's career much good. An owner captain may well be
bankrupted by loss of an entire speculative cargo.

And if the cargo was owned or insured by a financial institution or
syndicate, then it isnt going to be Joe Trader lobbying the authorities,
it's going to be the Bank's Vice President in Charge of Underwriting the
Subsector Duke's Lifestyle.

Hell, offer the crew the chance to cooperate in stealing the ship, in
exchange for a hundred thousand each in cash.

>
>You jump your Corsair away. The Far Trader you took jumps away as
>well, with all the valuable cargo aboard - and it never shows up at your
>pirate base. Did your prize crew get greedy? Did the Far Trader do 
>a Jump-Zero, and is sitting there in the original system surrounded
>by patrol craft (with your prize crew aboard willing to trade their lives
>for the location of your base)?

Hmmmm. It doesnt strike me as being incredibly Travelleresque, but I
suppose if the Pilot and Navigator (and Engineer I guess) had to have had a
couple of months experience with the ship to jump it correctly, it would
stop pirates taking ships.

If we assume the Far Trader does make it back to base, then I think you
have your Big Score.

>
>The resistance to taking the most valuable thing (the ship) is simple:
>a PC crew can get taken by pirates without ending the campaign if
>pirates are satisfied with cargo. If they steal ships as a matter of course,
>the campaign ends as the PC's are all murdered. IMTU I see enough
>logical underpinnings to allow "take the cargo not the ship" piracy
>to exist, so there is a nice match between story construction and
>game universe consistency.

If pirates arent willing to add mass murder to Grand Theft Starship, then
have them drop the survivors off in a lifeboat.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #555
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 4 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 556



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

I wanna build a base!!!
Re: Piracy (long)
RE: New Computerized Rifle
Re: Piracy and Bases
Re: Piracy
Re: The Imperial Nobility 
Re: Coyns
Re: Pirates and Older Starships
alternate ship maintenance (was: Piracy)
need megatraveller ship design spreadsheet
fighting ships of the shattered imperium

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 07:24:33 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: I wanna build a base!!!

Anybody know how much it would cost to build the various types of starports 
referenced to tech level in the 3I?  And where could I find this stuff out?

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 23:29:14 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Piracy (long)

At 03:42 AM 04/06/98 -0700, Steven Hudson wrote:
>>From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
>>Subject: Piracy (long)
>...
>>However what I want to talk about here is how the pirates are supposed to
>>actually catch their victims, take them over and get away before the Navy
>>arrives.
>
>  Remember, there is a lot of scope for pirate actions where a rapid 
>response isn't very practical - most of the system, for example. OC,
>a career pirate waiting for a target may be uneconomic.

This is true, but I am assuming (quite possibly incorrectly) that most in
system transport is of high bulk low value items like ore and food. I very
much doubt that these would be worth the bother for a pirate. However as
targets of opportunity for a desperate pirate they wouldn't be impossible.
This gives us a group of pirates who will never make it big because they go
for these low value targets, which are at least 'safe'.

>>pirate will have to come alongside the victim and match vectors. This is
>>going to be impossible to disguise and is very unlikely to be in accordance
>>with local traffic control, let alone astrogation regulations. As soon as
>>the pirate refuses to alter course they have given their game away.
>
>  My big worry (and largely only because of grav-focus lasers, I guess)
>is that having matched vectors to actually acquire value from the target,
>what prevents any responding vessel from opening fire at that point?
>While there may be an issue of having a beam density capable of doing
>non-sensor damage at a 4 LS range, a pure ballistic target (either disabled
>or unwilling to evade) should be not much more difficult to hit than it
>would be at 1 LS or even 10,000 km.
>
>  Is that analysis correct from a physics/fire control POV?

In TNE even non-grav X-Ray lasers will reach that far, so if the target
isn't maneuvering they're dead meat. I was intentionally generous to the
pirate in my post with everything I wasn't sure about, and I still found
that piracy is going to very difficult to get away with in the Third Imperium.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 23:17:21 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: RE: New Computerized Rifle

At 09:21 AM 04/06/98 +0100, you wrote:
>The ACR is born!
>
>Best regards,
>
>Hugh Foster
>System Support Analyst
>
>Servisair (UK) Ltd.
>hughfoster@servisair.co.uk
>www.servisair.co.uk
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:	Smart, David J (David) [SMTP:David.Smart@ons.octel.com]
>> Sent:	Tuesday, June 02, 1998 5:03 PM
>> To:	'traveller@mpgn.com'
>> Subject:	New Computerized Rifle
>> 
>> Alliant Techsystems team to develop new US individual weapon 
>> 
>> A US/European team led by Defence Systems Group has been selected to
>> develop the Objective Individual Combat Weapon (OICW), the US
>> military's
>> next-generation individual weapon. The OICW will replace the M16 rifle
>> and M203 grenade launcher used by US Forces.

I can imagine this thing being the soldiers ultimate nightmare when it gets
crap in it because it's sure to happen when you haven't been near an
armourer for weeks and it's raining and the bad guys have decided to pay
you a visit. And just think - more stuff to carry and run out of -
wonderful batteries (don't batteries die really quickly in sub-zero
temperatures).

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 23:30:45 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Piracy and Bases

At 10:39 PM 04/06/98 +1200, Steve Rennell wrote:
>Someone, I forget who, said you needed a large population 
>to support a A Starport, 
>I was looking through the "Galactic" files, and discovered 
>Bahadur (0715 Sabine/Deneb) A326230-E  
>
>It's got 100 people, and an A class starport -does that 
>mean it can only build 50 tons of ship per year? (or is 
>that it has 50t of dockspace available?  

According to TCS they'd have a yard capacity of about 0.1 DT per year.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:03:05 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Piracy

Thom Harris writes:
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>Thom Harris writes:
>>
>>>Aahhhh, wait a sec, [T4.1] takes place back in year 0 so pirates can
>>>operate there effectively.
>>
>>Actually, I'm quite willing to give you an argument about that, only I'm
>>not nearly as sure that I'm right and even less sure that I could prove
>>it.
>
>Wait a minute, [...] are you now saying that T4 M:0 is no longer a valid
>place to have pirates?

That depends on just what you mean by 'a valid place'. As I've said before,
I use pirates in the CT era in my own campaign, so obviously I regard even
the CT era as a valid place. I just don't think they make sense if you go
into the logical ramifications of the other (equally canonical) facts we
know about the CT era. The obvious solution is not to think about them.
As far as I am concerned, any discussion about pirates I get involved in
is fairly academic. I'm not, nor have I ever been, arguing that pirates
should be retroactively excised from canon (As I am about a few other of
my pet hates, such as the alledged Vargr and Aslan invasions of the
Domain of Deneb during the Rebellion) . All I'm saying is that they
don't make sense. Others disagree and we have had some interesting
discussions over that. And some less valuable, but I for one have gotten
at least a few valuable ideas from these discussions (The next pirate I
use is going to be a patrol vessel that has mutinied and can't visit
regular starports on their own.)

>There are practically NO borders on the Imperium, there isn't any
>colonial navy, I doubt the existance of even SDB's in tons of systems and
>you're telling me that you think that there is enough enforcement to keep
>piracy away?

I'm telling you that I haven't done the calculations, but that I wouldn't
be at all surprised if it turned out that it wouldn't be economically
sound even in the T4 era. The logic goes something like this: A merchant
ship is a valuable piece of equipment. Preventing the loss of even one
fairsized ship per year will pay for a lot of patrol ship. Combined with
the fact that jump ships move in a way that in seagoing vessels would
correspond to jumping from outside one harbour to outside another and
the corrolary that you need only one single task force per empty system
to protect any number of merchant ships, I wouldn't be surprised if it
was economically sound to patrol every empty system with a significant
amount of merchant traffic. BTW, if a world is big enough to recieve a lot
of merchant ships, it is big enough to have SDBs. If it dosen't recieve
a lot of traffic, pirates have the problem that they have to get lucky.
Still, if stealing the whole ship is a viable option then it _may_ be
doable.

>I don't think so. Obviously it would be random luck but think of the money
>you could get for the capture of ANY jump ship thats being sold to a TL7-8
>planet.

Unless the pirate is willing to take a check, there is a distinct upper
limit to the amount of wealth a single ship can get out of a TL7-8 planet
(to wit: a shipload of the most expensive good the world produces). And
they could hardly get more than some fraction of what the planet could
buy a legitimate ship for, now could they? And you're ignoring the high
initial investment for the pirate.

>>Besides, the Vargr would at most be a problem in the coreward line of
>>subsectors, not the entire Spinward Marches.
> 
>Not according to MT and specifically a location known as Depot.

The Vargr invasion of Corridor (which a previous discussion showed could have
happened, but not the way it is usually portrayed (the irresistible wave
of Vargr overrunning a defenseless sector)) is not an accurate portrayal of
the Vargr corsair acitivity prior to the Rebellion.

>>Well, how about providing me with a description of a pirate foray? Decide
>>what kind of ship you have, how you got it and what financial conditions
>>you have it under. Then tell me where in the Spinward Marches you start,
>>how you find a victim, how you catch it, what you do with it afterwards
>>and show me that you've made a profit.
> 
>Which Traveller do you want to use?

Since my original claim was that piracy as portrayed in CT sources does not
make sense, CT would seem to be the best bet, but if you want to use one of
the other sets... no, I am most familiar with CT rules, so if you give me a
choice, I'd prefer CT rules.

>CT, I'll quote passages from printed "canon" sources,

Passages that mention pirates you don't need to quote. If they didn't exist
I could hardly talk about "piracy as portrayed in CT sources", now could I?

>same for MT and TNE.

Same answer.

>The T4 Universe is available but what time frame are we talking?

There is propably too little information available to make for any
meaningful discussion.

>The problem you and I seem to be having is we BOTH are reasonable people
>and we BOTH believe piracy (as a career field) was over rated but,
>according to CT canon it did take place and was considered to be more than
>just a nuisance.  Where does that leave us?

It leaves me claiming that piracy as portrayed in the CT sources does not
make sense, and it seems to me that you're saying much the same.

>I'm not going to spend hours (already spent too many) trying to change your
>mind and you aren't going to change mine.

Just what is it you think you'd like to change my mind about? You seem to be
pretty much in agreement with me when it comes right down to it.

>So I would like to call a truce. I will continue to use as much Traveller
>canon material as fits into my playing universe and change those things
>that make NO sense what so ever. What those things happen to be will be
>between me and my players.

Thom, one of the things I'm resigned to have to repeat every few months
(because there are always new people arriving -- no reflection on you
intended) is that what people do with their personal Traveller campaigns
is IMO their own business and that if I don't specify that I'm talking
about a particular variant TU, then I'm talking about the official TU. 



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 08:01:30 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: The Imperial Nobility 

> dberry@hooked.net wrote
> 
> > >> Rebellion Sourcebook specifically mentioned that Strephon supported 
> > >> his nephews Varian, and Lucan, and even gave them apartments in the 
> > >> palace, but then again, it implied that they (especially Lucan) 
> > >> were were of a pain in the A--, than the British Royals. :-)
> 
> > >But did they have jug ears & tend to fall off of riding beasts while 
> > >showing off the Imperial bloodline?
> 
> > Well, we know that Strephon seemed more fond of sailing than ruling. >(TD #9)
> 
> Strephon may have prefered sailing to ruling but he, arguably unlike the
> other royals we are discussing, was more capable of ruling than sailing.

I'm working on Yet Another CT Noble Rework, something I used to use a LOT when 
I was an active GM with my CT group.  It was roughly based on on an article I 
read in Adventure Gamer Magazine ca. 1981 called 'Scepter & Starship'.  It was 
a pretty nifty variant for *Imperial* nobles, but needed some work as soon as 
MT came out.  Since I'm in the process of doing a PBEM, I was gonna dust it 
off and redo it anyways, so...  <grin>

In any event, here's the *temporary* social standings from 10 to 21, both 
Imperial and planetary:

  SS              Imp Title          Planetary Title
   A                UMC                 UMC
   B             Knight/Dame        Knight/Dame
   C           Baron/Baroness      Baron/Baroness
   D          Marquis/Marquessa   Marquis/Marquessa
   E           Count/Countess       Count/Countess
   F            Duke/Duchess         Duke/Duchess
   G          Viscout/<??>         Viscount/<??>
   H          Viceroy/<??>         Viceroy/<??>
   I       Archduke/Archduchess    Prince/Princess
   J         Prince/Princess        King/Queen
   K       Crown Prince/Princess      --/--
   L         Emperor/Empress          --/--

Some notes here.  'Planetary' royalty *IS* Imperial royalty up to SS F. Their 
oath of fealty is to the Emperor *through* their King/Queen.

Planetary Viscounts and Viceroys outrank Imperial Dukes *ONLY* when on their 
home planet, otherwise, they are considered to be Imperial Dukes/Duchesses.

An Imperial Archduke would outrank everybody *but* the Planetary Crown 
Prince/Princess or Planetary King/Queen when on a planet with a hereditary 
monarchy in theory, but in practice would be the King's leigelord's immediate 
henchman.  (I.E., the king would owe fealty *to* the Emperor *THROUGH* the 
Archduke).

Imperial Viceroy is a title given to one who is in effect Imperial governor of 
several systems in a subsector.  They'd be directly answerable to the Archduke.

Benefits, such as ways of generating holdings, etc, will follow in a further 
post.

> Emperor Strephon [at the time of his "assasination" in 1116]
> 
> 667ABH	[they list his Soc as only F, which is obviously an error, unless
> you wish to argue that these are the "real" stats for the assasinated
> clone]	Age 66

As you can see by what I've posted, his actual Social Standing would be L.
 
> The CT stats for Strephon (TD #9 pg 17)
> 
> Admin _6_	Leader _5_
> 
> These are pretty good evidence that Strephon was a good leader.  They
> just happened to be overshadowed by his disadvantage - Enemy: Dulinor

I'm surprised there were no weapons skills whatsoever.  Yes, he *is* 'the 
man', but concieveably there would come a time when he might *NEED* to be able 
to defend himself (Can you say 'Dulinor'?).  I'm sure he rectified this 
omission later...

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:20:01 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Coyns

Gary (TravelrTNE@aol.com) writes:

>Have the 36 Coyns been fully detailed?  I'm thinking in the Droyne AM.  I
>know 6 have diagrams of Humaniti, Droyne, Vargr, Aslan, k'kree, and Hivers,
>but what are the other 30?  

Anders Backman replies:

>There is a table in Twilights Peak (and I think Aliens Droyne) where is
>Coyn is described with a word. How this word is represented as a picture I
>have no idea.

I posted the following to the list a couple of years ago. Most of the
questions are still unresolved, so I'd appreciate any new suggestions.
In any case, I hope it will prove of interest to you.

- ------------------------
I'm doing a 'Secret of The Ancients' adventure for my players at the moment.
It's a different secret than the official one for several reasons; one, that
I don't like the whole Grandfather business at all, and, two, that even if I
did like it most of my players know it too, and that tends to ruin their
sense of wonder. And IMO the secret of The Ancients ought to be full of
wonder.

I have, however, tried to make my version fit all the clues left behind. My
Ancients left the universe in much the same state than the GDW Ancients did,
they just went about it differently. So some of he things I work out should
be useful even to those who want to stick with Grandfather and the kids.

At the moment I'm trying to work out how an Ancient set of coyns looks. We 
know the names of the coyns in the set of 36 used by modern Droyne, and 
we've been told what some of them looks like. The Ancient set consisted of
38 coyns and some of the older coyns (Aslan, Hiver, K'kree) cannot be part 
of the set.

I've listed the facts I've used (numbered) and the assumptions I've made
(lettered). If anyone can come up with facts I have missed or have some 
good ideas, please let me know.

1) Coyn sets found in Ancient sites range in size from 6 to 38 pieces.
   [_Imperial Encyclopedia_ p. 21].

a) The lesser sets found are subsets of one standard 38-coyn set, not 
   alternate sets.

b) The Ancient coyn set is identical to a pre-Ancient coyn set used by 
   pre-Ancient Droyne in prediction ceremonies.

2) Grandfather introduced the coyns as a tool of casting to a number of
   Chirper worlds around -75,000. [_Droyne_ pp. 6 and 45]. On some worlds
   the Chirpers gained the ability to caste, on others it didn't work
   (Vanejen, described in _Research Station Gamma_, is an example of the
   latter).

3) Grandfather modified the coyns on later visits and introduced the Aslan,
   Hiver and K'kree coyns (at least). [_Secret of The Ancients_ p 32].

b) The Ancient coyn set consisted of six groups of six plus two specials.
   The six castes was one group. Void, Soil, Air, Gas, Water, and Fire was
   aother (these were the Droyne concept of elements: Earth (Soil), Water,
   Fire, Good (breahable) Air (Air), Bad (unbreathable) Air (Gas), and the
   absence of any of the other five (Void). 18 of the other coyns mentioned
   in the modern set were also in the Ancient set, though any grouping of 
   them into sixes lacks common themes (the third group, Darkness, Cold,
   Noise, Signal, Heat, and Light are pairs of opposites  -  but so are
   Genesis & Death and Defeat & Achievement from another of the groups).
   Anyway, the abovementioned plus Aspiration, Sacrifice, Beast, Mercenary,
   Voyages, Justice, Change, and Phoenix (can't really be a phoenix, of
   course; it must be a legendary Droyne beast with the same characteristics 
   as the phoenix) were also part of the Ancient set. Humaniti, Vargr, 
   Aslan, Hiver, and K'kree was not. Remains the Droyne, which was one of
   the two special coyns. The remaining special coyn disappeared from the
   set when Grandfather re-introduced it, presumably because it was no
   longer relevant to the new Droyne. I suggest Eskaloyt, the Droyne
   homeworld itself. We now have 30+2 coyns. We lack one group of six, all
   of them coyns that were subsequently removed. One solution supplies not
   only a group with a common theme, but also the explanation of why they
   became redundant: Six prey animals native to Eskaloyt. Used by primitive
   Droyne to perform hunt magic.

So I suggest that the Ancient coyn set consisted of:

Worker	   Warrior	Drone	    Technician	 Sport	  Leader
Void	   Soil		Air	    Gas		 Water	  Fire
Darkness   Cold		Noise	    Signal	 Heat	  Light
Genesis	   Aspiration	Sacrifice   Defeat	 Death	  Achievement
Beast	   Mercenary	Voyages	    Justice	 Chance	  Phoenix
Hissayt	   Emissyob	Ayvaylk	    Bestoy	 Nebbay	  Hayyarn
Droyne	   Eskaloyt

But I can't just hand a list like that to my players. I'd much rather give
them a description of what the coyns look like. And that's where I need some
help. I've come up wih a description of most of the coyns. Some I like, some
I'm not thrilled about, and some I downright dislike, but can't come up with
a good alternative to. So if you think of something you think is better, let
me know.

c) The modern coyns that duplicates Ancient coyns duplicates their design 
   too.

4) The first Grandfather set (in -75,000) consisted of 38 coyns and included
   one with a human and one with a flame [RSG pp. 4 and 38].

d) The set of six fake coyns menioned on page 13 of _Twilight's Peak_ are
   copies of real coyns (albeit modern coyns); they depict an aslan leader,
   a flame, a human, a cloud, an ice crystal, and a sine wave.

e) The depictions of the six castes on page 64 of TP and pp. 12-13 of
   _Droyne_ are taken from the coyn depictions of those castes.

f) The coyn shown on the back of _Droyne_ (two flames and the lower third
   is obsured by a droyne) is not a variant of the coyn wih the single
   flame.

Now to match coyns to descriptions. The first six are easy, thanks to
assumption e):

A massive droyne with digging tools		Worker
A tall droyne with sword and shield		Warrior
A flying droyne with a bottle[1]		Drone		
A medium droyne with tools and detector		Technician
A slender droyne with ball and cupstick[2]	Sport
A big-headed droyne with a spear[3]		Leader

[1] A feeding bottle, perhaps?
[2] A cupstick (_feldoss_ in oynprith) is normally used by Droyne Sports
    to play a sort of team-gladiatorial game for the amusement of the oytrip,
    rather like jai-alai. In combat, the cupstick can throw a very heavy
    object with killing force, multiplying the strength of the droyne's
    spindly arms considerably via its added moment of inertia, and can also
    be used for delivering impact fuse grenades. It is usually only handled
    by Sports-- hence its appearance on the coyn.
			[Thanks to Mike Metlay for input on _feldoss_"]
[3] A ceremonial spear, of course. See later.

The rest are a bit more tricky. The ones we know about, apart from the
Aslan and the human, was a flame, an ice crystal, a cloud, a sine wave,
and two flames. The flame and the ice crystal can be Fire and Cold. The 
cloud could be Air, Gas, or Water (or any of the philosophical concepts, 
of course; a cloud could be the symbol of hope to an agrarian community
("I do so hope it will rain")). The sine wave I eventually assigned to
Signal, which gave me a jagged zig-zag line for it's opposite, Noise.

Now, going down the list here are the symbols I came up with for each coyn:

Void	    Nothing engraved. A blank disc.
Soil	    A massive cliff. 
Air	    A white cloud (ie. the outline of a cloud).
Gas	    A black cloud (ie. a filled-in outline of a cloud).
Water	    A foam-flecked wave.
Fire	    A flame.

(Except for the Void and the Fire I'm pretty dissatisfied with these, but
they are the best I can come up with. Any suggestions?)

Darkness    Two different sized cresents (The moons of Eskaloyt)
Light	    A sun.
Cold	    An ice crystal.
Heat	    A campfire (Two flames arising from a tree log). 
Signal	    A sine wave.
Noise	    A zig-zag line.

Voyages	    A sailing ship.
Justice	    A ceremonial spear[4].
Chance	    Six sticks in a random pattern[5].
Beast	    A ferocious six-limbed carnivore in mid-jump[6].
Mercenary   A big-headed droyne with arms and armour[7].
Phoenix	    A six-limbed animal surrounded by flames.

[4] Used by primitive Droyne leaders to dispatch those judged guilty or
    supurfluous to the community (This must have been before krinaytsyu
    became common; when it did, the Leader kept the spear as his symbol
    of authority).
[5] The Droyne use such sticks to generate random numbers according to 
    the pattern they fall in; coyn drawing is not, of course, considered 
    a random procedure since theyare assumed to predict future events.
[6] The _Stomfelk_, the most feared predator on Eskaloyt.
[7] I reasoned that mercenaries must be krinaytsoyni, and the most common
    krinaytsoyni are leaders. Hence a leader with weapons for a mercenary.

Genesis	    An egg.
Death	    A droyne skull.
Achievement A brimful cup.
Defeat	    An empty, tipped-over cup.
Hope	    Six stars in a random pattern[8].
Sacrifice   A droyne sitting with eyes closed[9].


[8] Well, what can I say? If I could come up with good symbols for Air
    and Gas, I'd use the (rain) cloud for hope. As it is I'm falling back
    on a Droyne constellation symbolising hope.
[9] A droyne commiting krinaytsyui, of course.

The Hissayt, Emissyob, Ayvaylk, Bestoy, Nebbay, and Hayyarm are various
six-limbed herbivores and omnivores once important to Droyne hunters. I
had descriptions of them all worked out, but those notes seems to have
dissappeared.

Finally the two special coyns:

Droyne	   A group of three droyne, a leader, a drone, and a worker[10].
Eskaloyt   Some strange irregular outlines (diferent on the two sides)[11].

[10] In other words, an alpha-male, a female, and a beta-male.
[11] Polar projections of Eskaloyt. Since they don't have the lattitude
     and longitude lines common to human map projections they are unlikely 
     to be identified as such by humans. 
- ---------------------------


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 09:02:20 -0400
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: Pirates and Older Starships

I want to address a couple of points.  Call it my $0.02 worth.

Pirates and Bases:

I presume, at least IMTU, that successful pirates have some type of hide
away, a base of some sort.  That is where they "live" and "play".  It is
usually a life of fun and sun, and maybe some legitimate pursuits..., at
least until the money runs out.  Then they have to go back to work to
support themselves and their life of debauchery.  That means they then
go out and do piracy...  They may even have a "legitimate" cover they
use when in the local proximity, and only turn pirate when they are so
many parsecs away...

Accordingly, it's a real bummer when the authorities finally track down
where they are based, or when the locals find out that they are really
pirates, or when the locals get tired of their living loud and they get
run out.  Then they have to find a new quiet out-of-the-way neighborhood
where they can move in and begin to live again.  Again, YMMV.  

Pirates and Maintenance:

Now, if that ship is sitting there idle for much of the time, i.e.,
powered down because they are living life, how much maintenance is going
to be needed?  Or rather, is the annual maintenance based on annual
usage?  The maintenance required for a regularly run merchant ship will
be greater because it has much more use.  Same might hold true for a
true yacht that doesn't see much use...

And if the pirates are model citizens on their homeworld, they probably
would have easy access to maintenance facilities.

Older Starships:

I think this may tie in to the discussion a little while back on the
taxation policies.  If the Megacorps are taxed and they have the ability
to depreciate the ships, equipment, etc. it becomes better for them to
sell the old assets off so they can continue to take deductions.  

Also, as some others mentioned, the appearance and age of the vessel may
make some difference.  There is something to be said for having the best
ships available, and no maintenance problems.  40 year old vessels of a
certain class may need to be "grounded" in order to check the tendency
of the grid working loose, or the CG mountings, or the "wiring through
the center line fuel tanks [like 747s(?) recently].  If you don't have
that class or that age (10 years maybe?) then you keep running. 
Otherwise you have to show proof of modification/check when coming into
class A/B starports in order to get clearance...

I think that a megacorp would only keep older starships around when they
were in financial difficulties and couldn't come up with the cash to
fund new ones.

I also like the idea of increasing the costs a bit as the ship ages.  I
haven't given it much thought yet, but since it is normal for people
mustering out to receive starships (some of which are older) it makes
sense to me that they have a long and useful life.  But it would become
more expensive.  And there may be the requirement to have whole systems
replaced...  new jump drive, new pp, new maneuver drive... etc. that
would require a loan/capital investment.

I can see it now in 1116 3I...

FOR SALE  Type A2 Far Trader  Laid down 1046.  New JpDr [1114], Mnvr Dr
[1108] PP rebuilt [1104].  All maint records from 1075.  Upgraded
computer, New galley, life support.  Needs gravitics works.  See at
Deneb Downport.  Contact XXXXXXX for appointment.

Greg Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 09:24:51 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: alternate ship maintenance (was: Piracy)

Richard Hough wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I think the point Ian was making is that in the Traveller rules skipping
your annual maintenance is a quick way to, depending on which misjump rules
you use, turn your ship into a multi-million Cr writeoff, or a coffin.


Unfortunately the "decreased operational life" will be measured in months,
and the price they pay (using T4 misjump rules) will be their lives.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I read the rules as being guidelines for the ref, especially the
maintenance rules. I allow more ways to perform annual maintenance
than lying up for two weeks every year in a class B+ starport.
These alternate methods are not faster, not cheaper (though the
price may be in time and hazard rather than credits), and not by
any stretch of the imagination as reliable or as effective - but a
ship that can't stay for two weeks in a starport (like a Corsair)
may have no choice. 

Honest merchants wouldn't dream of using these "alternate methods"
in lieu  of the maintenance recommended in their owner's manuals, any 
more than a law-abiding citizen would go to a black-market surgeon for
a gunshot wound. 

The most important rule I've ever seen in any RPG manual is the one
that tells the GM to make it work as he sees fit. It helps that I've got
some canon behind me (Zhodani Coreward expeditions penetrating
more than a year's travel from their bases, for example), but having
it work IMTU is enough. Of course, as always, YMMV.

Walt

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 8:32:05 CDT
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: need megatraveller ship design spreadsheet

I am in desperate need of a good megatraveller ship design spreadsheet,
preferably one which accounts for all the errata (which I do have).


DonM.
- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 8:34:51 CDT
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: fighting ships of the shattered imperium

Does anyone have a collection of *corrected* designs for the ships from
FSotSI?  (still in MT format, just designed by the rules) 

Thanks in advance,


DonM.
- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #556
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 4 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 557



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Old Ships and Wear Values
Piracy
Re: Piracy (short!) was (long)
Jump Calibration Summary
Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")
Re: CD-rom
Re: Piracy (long)
Re: Piracy (long)
RE: fighting ships of the shattered imperium
RE: CD-ROM?
More Stuff for sale...
Re: Piracy (long)
Re: Piracy (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 04 Jun 1998 09:43 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Old Ships and Wear Values

I believe in wear values, due to one reference in the Darrians
module.

The reference states that one difference between TL15 and TL16
ships is: durability.  A top of the line TL15 military vessel
will last 100 years.  A TL16 vessel will last at least 1000
years.  This is probably due to a revolution in ship design.

Thus, things under TL16 will be more trouble than they're worth
after 100 years.  I'm not sure if a 40-year-old starship is
worth having -- I think it should be useful for tramp traders;
however, no serious commercial venure would use them IMTU,
and after 80 years they are just old leaky buckets.  A corporation
would make money while making payments, then just trade in old
ships for new ones as they cross some wear or age boundary.
Old ships would be recycled, scrapped, or sold, depending on 
which is most convenient at the time.

By the way: is there some kind of 'curing' process that goes on
with the construction of a ship hull?  Is there massive red
tape that can never be avoided in building a ship?  What takes
it so long?  Not that I mind: I rather think it should be that
way.  However, some theories might be nice as to WHY?

Perhaps a logarithmic curve mapping wear to reliability would
serve nicely.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 10:14:55 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Piracy

Ian Whitchurch wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>Also, as I said a couple of times, the skillset and contacts needed to 
>sell a stolen ship for profit was far rarer IMTU than what you needed
>to sell stolen cargos. You could even have navigation computers
>on your target ship that won't go anywhere _except_ the route
>they've been subsidized for, without some heavy-duty and time
>consuming hacking. (Such computers, and locks on computers that
>need to be reset by bank representatives, have been mentioned
>in JTAS sources, so aren't only IMTU.)
>

Hmmm. Why not link these up to the doors, preventing anyone opening the
hatch ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Sure. Now jump the captured ship to your base with the same cutting
laser you used to get through the doors. Getting through a door is
easy - getting through TL12+ computer security is not something
as vulnerable to quick applications of brute force.

Ian again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Ian again:
>"I'm sorry _Beowulf_, your Imperial Safety Inspection is 6 months out
>of date...and a cursory inspection of your field repairs tells me you're
>going to have to pull that entire Grid Interface before we can recertify
>you. What, works fine? That's what they all say. You're not cleared
>to take off into our traffic pattern with this hunk of junk...."
>

I can *very* easily imagining a banker saying that to someone who is about
to risk misjump in their multi-multi-million credit investment ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I was using that as an example of what would happen to an honest
merchant who tried some alternatives to regular annual maintenance
when he lands his ship in a legal starport. Honest merchants
use normal annual maintenance - it's cheaper, faster, safer and
better, and doesn't get you in trouble with the Safety Inspectors.
People who can't show their ships in a legal starport have to make
do with what they can.

Ian again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>You don't carry a military load-out unless you're a licensed mercenary
>(or a pirate). An honest merchant isn't getting 3 10-ton fighters into
>his cargo bay unless he does some dishonest things.

"If the Navy will not protect the merchant shipping of this Sector, then My
Lord Duke, the Merchant Shipping must protect the Navy".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
They'll do it with nothing bigger than a turret-mount beam laser or
civilian-grade missile rack then. The Navy has less patience for
private military-grade flotillas than it does for Pirates - in fact, it
sees personal "defense forces" as more of a threat to the Imperium
than any pirate. 

"But we need those escort craft to protect our shipping!"
"The Navy will protect your shipping. Control of spacelanes is
our responsibility - _not_ yours."
"But Pinata system hasn't seen a Navy patrol flotilla in six months!"
"Our resources are allocated efficiently. Would you like to fill out
a complaint form?"

Ian again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
But seriously, if piracy is a threat, then you will get an evolution in
traders towards bigger and better-armed ships, to force concentration
against concentration.

I believe there would also be heavily lobbying of the appropriate
authorities for more potent weapons to be made available to merchants ("Of
course we're a licenced StarMerc Orbital Support Element. The cargo
hauling's just a sideline")
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
These "authorities" have their orders from a bureacracy a year's time
away, that sees "request for more potent weapons" as "please help
us arm ourselves for the coming rebellion of your frontier provinces".
With the exception of the occaisional maverick local commander,
the Navy's decisions are based on policies with a much bigger picture
than a few tramp freighters lost to pirates in a backwater subsector.

Megacorps might force a policy change. The 10kdtn+ ships megacorps
use would barely notice a pirate attack, so pirates leave them alone. 
To those in power (Navy fleets, megacorps, high-pop worlds) the
Piracy threat is something out of adventure holovids, something that
happens to other people - and the people in power make lots of decisions
about things like what an honest trader is allowed to arm his ship with.

Ian again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>You jump your Corsair away. The Far Trader you took jumps away as
>well, with all the valuable cargo aboard - and it never shows up at your
>pirate base. Did your prize crew get greedy? Did the Far Trader do 
>a Jump-Zero, and is sitting there in the original system surrounded
>by patrol craft (with your prize crew aboard willing to trade their lives
>for the location of your base)?

Hmmmm. It doesnt strike me as being incredibly Travelleresque, but I
suppose if the Pilot and Navigator (and Engineer I guess) had to have had a
couple of months experience with the ship to jump it correctly, it would
stop pirates taking ships.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I was referring to how you can watch the ship you captured enter jump,
but (for a week, anyway) you can't see where it's going - or even if it
went anywhere at all. The captured navigator pops the clutch a second
early or late, the ship enters jumpspace for a week and goes nowhere - 
he figures that he has a better chance of survival, even with your thugs 
on board, if he's in a civilized system with no jump fuel aboard.

Ian again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If pirates arent willing to add mass murder to Grand Theft Starship, then
have them drop the survivors off in a lifeboat.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
What, throw away a 14MCr lifeboat? Cap'n, we can file the serial numbers
off it and toss it in the capture bay, no hacking through a scrambled
nav computer required...

Doable, though - assuming the pirates can overcome all the other
difficulties and make off with the ship, such a thing would be a good
idea - the Captain, in fear for his life and the lives of his crew, may have
already taken the lifeboat and abandoned ship, hoping the pirates are
more interested in his vessel than they are in chasing him. A Sub Liner
(Lifeboat, passengers who can afford really big lawsuits aboard) might
especially see this happen - after all, it isn't like the Captain's abandoning
a ship he owns or anything.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 07:25:06 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy (short!) was (long)

Hello,
>From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
>Subject: Re: Piracy (long)
...
>>  Remember, there is a lot of scope for pirate actions where a rapid 
>>response isn't very practical - most of the system, for example. OC,
>>a career pirate waiting for a target may be uneconomic.
>
>This is true, but I am assuming (quite possibly incorrectly) that most in
>system transport is of high bulk low value items like ore and food. I very

  Probably correct for stuff going to the mainworld (wouldn't factories
be there?), but there's still distribution of finished goods from there
to the facilities (and minor worlds?) in the system.

>much doubt that these would be worth the bother for a pirate. However as
>targets of opportunity for a desperate pirate they wouldn't be impossible.
>This gives us a group of pirates who will never make it big because they go
>for these low value targets, which are at least 'safe'.

  Even a small craft has a power plant; 1 Dt of fusion reactor is 3 MCr (HG).
That presumes a thruster equipped vessel; a slug of ore sent ballistic is
unlikely to be worth the trouble.

  A good one would be to order a consignment of moderate value to be
delivered direct from another system (paying a premium, presumably)
and then seize the ship when it arrives at your "mining camp". OC,
at this stage you'll shortly be on the most wanted list (IMTU) but
if you get away or have/find a buyer for the ship then you'll be
very well paid for your efforts.

...
>>  Is that analysis correct from a physics/fire control POV?
>
>In TNE even non-grav X-Ray lasers will reach that far, so if the target
>isn't maneuvering they're dead meat. I was intentionally generous to the
>pirate in my post with everything I wasn't sure about, and I still found
>that piracy is going to very difficult to get away with in the Third Imperium.

  X-ray are TL 13+? So w/o grav-focus there's some room by milieu, I guess.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: 04 Jun 1998 10:17 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Jump Calibration Summary

Well, I saw this discussed but don't remember the conclusion:
What are the references to where a ship in jump emerges?
Does T4 say a ship emerges at the 100-diameter limit of the
target world?  

I think I remember reading about military vessels being able
to cailbrate jump vectors pretty good, but I don't remember
what the nonmilitary ship rules are.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 10:31:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael and MJ Houghton <herveus@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Older Starships (was "Ship and trade economics")

Howdy!

In considering the effects of time on spaceships, I think it is
constructive to look at aircraft for some parallels.

General Aviation aircraft (the little guys) often can be sold for
what you paid for them, if they have been adequately maintained.
It is not at all rare to find 20 and 30 year old airframes in
regular use today. Aircraft require an annual maintenance check,
along with operating time based inspections. Some are mandatory
for all uses, and others are only required (in a regulatory sense)
for craft in commercial service (including rental). 

Abstracting this for game purposes, I see well maintained ships
(at least those of a "standard" design) holding their value
pretty well, so long as they are properly maintained. Proper 
maintenance is a code phrase for "hole in space into which you
throw money". Looking at the GA example, it would appear that
the value actually tends to decline for "non-classic" birds 
when one factors out inflation.

If one considers the OTU economic model to be approximately 0%
inflation, then the value should hold well. If one takes the long
term inflation rate to be 1%, that would devalue a ship to 67%
over 40 years. .5% would get it down to 80%. 2% would drop it to 45%.

yours,
Michael

- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@access.digex.net  | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.access.digex.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 11:04:03 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: CD-rom

Kagehira@aol.com writes:
>	Bruce Johnson recieved a copy he's using on a MAC with no reported
>problems
>so far. Rob Prior recieved an earlier copy and stated he had problems, but
>didn't really give me any details, and there might have been a possibility
>that I created his disk incorrectly. You might contact Bruce and see if
>your
>setup is similar to his, if so, the disk should work.

I sent you a two-page listing!  (I also asked if you wanted the disk back
to rerecord over. Let me know if you do.) Looks like the Internet Black
Hole (tm) claimed another email. (Or our former network administrators,
who had the brain capacity of a leprous wombat that's been rotting for the
last fortnight.)

A brief summary (from memory, that email has long since vanished in one of
the many Windows NT system crashes), is that:

1) file types weren't recorded properly, so that double-clicking on a
document doesn't open an application

2) many graphics documents appeared damaged (GIF files that couldn't be
read by GIF-Converter, for example)

3) The HTML pageswere all neamed using Microsoft three-letter extensions
(ie. ".htm") instead of their original four-letter extensions (ie.
".html"), whcih meant clicking on a hyperlink didn't work (because the
internal hyperlinks were still four-letter extensions).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 08:53:19 PDT
From: "Aldrin Bronzarm" <bronzearm@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Piracy (long)

>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 11:06:59 +1200
>From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
>Subject: Piracy (long)
>
>Here's my entry into the piracy debate:
>
 <snip>

>In conclusion to my ramble (rant) I just don't see how piracy is 
possible
>at the levels that the cononical encounter tables, TNS articles, etc 
show
>given the physics of the Travller universe. This is unfortunate as IMO
>piracy is important to the feel of the Traveller universe. I think I'll
>just stick with the New Era where at least there aren't enough patrols 
to
>stop it, though even that may not survive economic analysis :(
>
>- -- 
>IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ 
sy--
>
>"If in doubt - wipe it out."
> 
>Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
>Palmerston North, New Zealand
>Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm
>
>------------------------------
I have been lurking for some time now and this is my first input to the 
mailing list, so bear with me. 

Seeing the discussions Piracy and the 100-diameter limitations. I have 
notice that everyone is limiting them selves to a 100-diameter limit.

There has to be more than traveling from a world surface/orbit to 
100-diameters out, through Jump, to 100-diameters out  to the world 
surface/orbit.  Granted the size of the world and starport will be a 
factor in the equation, but I am not going to worry about that.

For going after ship traveling the interstellar trade routes, some of 
captains will for go buying fuel at the starport and others will brave 
skimming a gasgaint.  Travel between the gasgaint and the port of call 
will take more that a few hours (you can do the math if you want).  The 
area between the port of call and the gasgaint would give ample time to 
strike and remove all the cargo and be able to jump out at the sign of a 
patrol ship.

I see the big prize as being the interplanetary ships.  They are going 
to be carrying supplies and good to and from the smaller bases / 
colonies/ outposts / whatever.  It would be easier to plan an attack on 
one of these ships because there would be a probably be a schedule for 
them to run on. There would even be the chance that there would only be 
a skeleton crew on board. Travel only being a day or two, why would they 
need more.




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 12:05:59 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Piracy (long)

Aldrin Bronzarm wrote:
Seeing the discussions Piracy and the 100-diameter limitations. I have

> notice that everyone is limiting them selves to a 100-diameter limit.
>
> There has to be more than traveling from a world surface/orbit to
> 100-diameters out, through Jump, to 100-diameters out  to the world
> surface/orbit.  Granted the size of the world and starport will be a
> factor in the equation, but I am not going to worry about that.

The 100 diameter limit is really only important if you're trying to raid
starships as opposed to space ships. You can raid an insystem freighter
nearly anywhere.

>
>
> For going after ship traveling the interstellar trade routes, some of
> captains will for go buying fuel at the starport and others will brave
> skimming a gasgaint.

Only a foolish or desperate merchant would skim a gas giant.  You risk your
entire ship and in the case of HEPlar engines, you end up burning all the
fuel you skimmed when you try to leave orbit.  At a mere 100 Cr per dTon for
unrefined fuel, why would you risk the giant?  Now, if you're out in the
wilds with no starport and only a gas giant to refuel from, that's a
different story.  But no pirate would be able to sustain themselves
indefinitely while waiting for his prey to stumble into the system.

> Travel between the gasgaint and the port of call
> will take more that a few hours (you can do the math if you want).  The
> area between the port of call and the gasgaint would give ample time to
> strike and remove all the cargo and be able to jump out at the sign of a
> patrol ship.

This is exactly why Merchants don't do that.

>
>
> I see the big prize as being the interplanetary ships.  They are going
> to be carrying supplies and good to and from the smaller bases /
> colonies/ outposts / whatever.  It would be easier to plan an attack on
> one of these ships because there would be a probably be a schedule for
> them to run on. There would even be the chance that there would only be
> a skeleton crew on board. Travel only being a day or two, why would they
> need more.
>

These are also the type of ships that have escorts.  Convoy duty etc.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 17:14:00 +0100 
From: Hugh Foster <HughFoster@Servisair.co.uk>
Subject: RE: fighting ships of the shattered imperium

Some of them but they are a bit "house-ruley". If you wannem, mail me
privately!



Best regards, 

Hugh Foster
System Support Analyst

Servisair (UK) Ltd.
hughfoster@servisair.co.uk
www.servisair.co.uk


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Don McKinney [SMTP:dmckinne@itds.com]
> Sent:	Thursday, June 04, 1998 2:35 PM
> To:	traveller-digest@MPGN.COM
> Subject:	fighting ships of the shattered imperium
> 
> Does anyone have a collection of *corrected* designs for the ships
> from
> FSotSI?  (still in MT format, just designed by the rules) 
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> 
> DonM.
> --
> ======================================================================
> ====
> = Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist
> dmckinne@itds.com =
> = International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217)
> 239-8365 =
> = 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217)
> 351-8250 =
> = Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7,
> 1999 =
> = dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217)
> 469-9917 = 
> ======================================================================
> ====

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 17:16:09 +0100 
From: Hugh Foster <HughFoster@Servisair.co.uk>
Subject: RE: CD-ROM?

What about us poor buggers out here in England? Can you take credit
cards?



Best regards, 

Hugh Foster
System Support Analyst

Servisair (UK) Ltd.
hughfoster@servisair.co.uk
www.servisair.co.uk


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Kagehira@aol.com [SMTP:Kagehira@aol.com]
> Sent:	Wednesday, June 03, 1998 6:46 AM
> To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject:	Re: CD-ROM?
> 
> 	Yeap, you missed out.
> 	It's out (such as it is :) ).
> 	The first purchaser's finally recieved there first copy a couple of weeks
> ago. I've been awaiting any complaints about problems before posting an
> update, especially as one person had a problem on their MAC.
> 	The only complaints so far is the multitude of info on the disc (about
> 200-230 megs of material). And growing.
> 
> 	Cost was $15 for U.S. orders, $10 for HIWG members (add another $2 for S&H
> right now, postage costs have been a bit higher than expected right now).
> Payment preferred is by Money Order. And please allow 4-6 weeks for delivery
> :) (only reason for that is I need to disassemble my computer to swap some
> boards).
> 	Send payment to:
> 	Bryan Borich
> 	3890 50th street
> 	San Diego, CA 92105-3005
> 
> 
> Bryan
> 
> 
> P.S. Their were a bunch of overseas queries before about buying the CD that I
> had put off since I'd been hoping to trade them through CORE in order to save
> overseas orders some money (because of the cost of International Money
> Orders), however this doesn't seem to be happening so to avoid any further
> delay. You can go ahead and place orders. In the case of U.K. purchasers I'd
> probably still be willing to trade a CD for one or two CORE products, however
> please email me privately to arrange such a deal.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 11:52:10 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: More Stuff for sale...

The Teran Trade Athority:
    Space Ships
    Space Wrecks

    I am considerings selling theese books, but want to feel the waters to see how
much I could get for them.  Thery are collections of space art and stories.
- --
My god, it's full of stars!


Http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/4467

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 10:11:24 PDT
From: "Aldrin Bronzarm" <bronzearm@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Piracy (long)

>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 11:06:59 +1200
>From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
>Subject: Piracy (long)
>
>Here's my entry into the piracy debate:
>
 <snip>

>In conclusion to my ramble (rant) I just don't see how piracy is 
possible
>at the levels that the cononical encounter tables, TNS articles, etc 
show
>given the physics of the Travller universe. This is unfortunate as IMO
>piracy is important to the feel of the Traveller universe. I think I'll
>just stick with the New Era where at least there aren't enough patrols 
to
>stop it, though even that may not survive economic analysis :(
>
>- -- 
>IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ 
sy--
>
>"If in doubt - wipe it out."
> 
>Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
>Palmerston North, New Zealand
>Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm
>
>------------------------------
I have been lurking for some time now and this is my first input to the 
mailing list, so bear with me. 

Seeing the discussions Piracy and the 100-diameter limitations. I have 
notice that everyone is limiting them selves to a 100-diameter limit.

There has to be more than traveling from a world surface/orbit to 
100-diameters out, through Jump, to 100-diameters out  to the world 
surface/orbit.  Granted the size of the world and starport will be a 
factor in the equation, but I am not going to worry about that.

For going after ship traveling the interstellar trade routes, some of 
captains will for go buying fuel at the starport and others will brave 
skimming a gasgaint.  Travel between the gasgaint and the port of call 
will take more that a few hours (you can do the math if you want).  The 
area between the port of call and the gasgaint would give ample time to 
strike and remove all the cargo and be able to jump out at the sign of a 
patrol ship.

I see the big prize as being the interplanetary ships.  They are going 
to be carrying supplies and good to and from the smaller bases / 
colonies/ outposts / whatever.  It would be easier to plan an attack on 
one of these ships because there would be a probably be a schedule for 
them to run on. There would even be the chance that there would only be 
a skeleton crew on board. Travel only being a day or two, why would they 
need more.




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 10:15:37 PDT
From: "Odin Sveinsson" <helsefyr34@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Piracy (long)

Hello there,

I felt your idea was a very good one. I would add this as well.
Let us assume the given solar system had the following orbits:

	1) molten lava surfaced planet
	
	2) Earth like world 
	
	3) Dry sandy covered world like Dune

	4) Large Asteroid field Rich in mineral ores

	5) Large Gas giant with moons like Jupiter

	6) Small gas giant with a small asteroid belt forming
		rings and etc.

Now lets assume that the main space port "A" is a orbital facility
above the 2nd planet. We can also assume that there are three type
"B" space ports on the planets surface.

Also lets say that there is a type "C" on the surface of the 3rd
planet . Then there could be a number of Corp only starports type
"D" located in the Asteroid belt. There may even be a type "E" on
one of the moons around the Large gas giant planet as well.

Ok now in this system lets call the 2nd world "Homeworld" and lets 
say that there are a number of Corps that running mining operations
in the asteroid belts. Also lets say that a number of the corps have
manufacturing colonies on the third desert planet. There might be a few 
other installations scattered throughout the system as well.

Now I'd have to say that there would be a lot of system ships flying
around. Shuttles, cargo haulers, drone ships, and etc. I would also
say that there would be a lot of Space faring ship traffic coming 
into the system from the jump point to most likely the main system
start port in orbit above the "Homeworld".

So with all this going on, this would most likely make for a
Pirates dream and great hunting ground. There would be plenty
of places to hide and play.

Also throw in some fighting between the corps, and some civil
unrest between Homeworld and Dune planet you have a perfect place
for any group of players to do it all. Heck you could have many
adventures and plots in this system alone

What do you think?

Odin
	
>From: "Aldrin Bronzarm" <bronzearm@hotmail.com>

>I have been lurking for some time now and this is my first input to the 
>mailing list, so bear with me. 
>
>Seeing the discussions Piracy and the 100-diameter limitations. I have 
>notice that everyone is limiting them selves to a 100-diameter limit.
>
>There has to be more than traveling from a world surface/orbit to 
>100-diameters out, through Jump, to 100-diameters out - to the world 
>surface/orbit.  Granted the size of the world and starport will be a 
>factor in the equation, but I am not going to worry about that.
>
>For going after ship traveling the interstellar trade routes, some of 
>captains will for go buying fuel at the starport and others will brave 
>skimming a gasgaint.  Travel between the gasgaint and the port of call 
>will take more that a few hours (you can do the math if you want).  The 
>area between the port of call and the gasgaint would give ample time to 
>strike and remove all the cargo and be able to jump out at the sign of 
a 
>patrol ship.
>
>I see the big prize as being the interplanetary ships.  They are going 
>to be carrying supplies and good to and from the smaller bases / 
>colonies/ outposts / whatever.  It would be easier to plan an attack on 
>one of these ships because there would be a probably be a schedule for 
>them to run on. There would even be the chance that there would only be 
>a skeleton crew on board. Travel only being a day or two, why would 
they 
>need more.
>
>
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #557
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 4 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 558



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: CD-rom
Imperial to Planetary Credit Exchange Rates?
MegaTraveller Ship Design
re:Traffic Destinations
Rob Prior & Hughes CD replies
Re: "Letter of Marque" - Payment Methods
Re: Turnlengths & physics
Re: BITS - LICENSE RENEWED WITH MARC MILLER
re:I wanna build a base!!!
Re: CD ROM index
Bits products arrived ;-)
Re: Old Ships and Wear Values
Re: Piracy (long)
Re Coyns
Re Nobility
New info on asteroids...
Pirates take the whole ship? (Re: Piracy)
Re: I wanna build a base!!!
RE: Piracy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 09:47:08 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: CD-rom

Rob Prior wrote:

> Looks like the Internet Black
> Hole (tm) claimed another email. (Or our former network administrators,
> who had the brain capacity of a leprous wombat that's been rotting for the
> last fortnight.)

C'mon Rob...don't hold back...tell us how you really feel about 'em! ;-)

> A brief summary (from memory, that email has long since vanished in one of
> the many Windows NT system crashes), is that:
> 
> 1) file types weren't recorded properly, so that double-clicking on a
> document doesn't open an application

This is a generic problem with foreign file systems on Macs. You need to
set up PC Exchange to recognize and associate certain DOS extensions
with specific applications. This _isn't_ a hybrid disk, so no file
type/creator information is there. Also, one thing I've mentioned to
Bryan; none of the Mac files except the binhexed ones are ok. You can't
stick a Mac binary file, like a program or even a .sit file on a PC
disk. Ultimately, the solution to this is to burn this as a hybrid
HFS/9660 disk; this ensures that the data/resource forks are laid down
correctly. (It also fixes, for Macs at least, the .htm/.html problems,
since the filenames on the Mac side are preserved intact)

> 2) many graphics documents appeared damaged (GIF files that couldn't be
> read by GIF-Converter, for example)

send me a list, and I'll look at 'em. part of the problem may lie with
Gif-Convertor, but there's a bunch of various GIFs and Jpegs over the
years I've had problems with on the Mac but not on the PC. Usually the
problem is with a messed up EOF or file length marker...for some reason,
the PC program I use (LView and LView Pro) seems to be more forgiving
for that error than Mac programs.

> 3) The HTML pageswere all neamed using Microsoft three-letter extensions
> (ie. ".htm") instead of their original four-letter extensions (ie.
> ".html"), whcih meant clicking on a hyperlink didn't work (because the
> internal hyperlinks were still four-letter extensions).

This'll mess up _everyone_ not just Macs, and is a problem with the
format of the disk. It's an ISO 9660 level 1 which spec's a 8.3
filename. There are extensions to the ISO 9660 format, but they're not
universally compatible (IIRC, Apple's Foreign File Access extension,
which is needed to read an ISO 9660 disk, only recognizes level 1
filenames.) Apple's next system Rev , 8.5 is supposed to have greater
uspport for the Unicode character set, which allows for 256 character
filenames. I think that's also ione of the 9660 extensions, since
Unicode's pretty well used in the Un*x world, as well as Windows, and
IIRC OS/2 (right Eris?)

The only solution to this is to pre-massage all the html before burning
the cd to ensure that all the links are valid. 

This _also_ means going through the code and replacing _all_ absolute
local links with relative ones. This is simply good HTML hygiene,
anyway, since it makes your code portable.

This simply means that TML-CD II is going to require a fair bit of work,
and someone with a Mac and a CD-Rom burner, since no PC software I've
yet found can write a HFS partition to a CD. (and if anyone knows any
differently, PLEEZE let me know!!) While we're at it, a html-ization of
the entire disk would be good...and I'm sure Bryan can manage that in
his copious free time ;-)

Also, while we're on the CD subject..I went browsing through the old TML
bundles...in TML bundle #2 there's a list of the charter
members...Leonard Erikson was on that list...Congrats, Leonard, you are
officially the 'Eldest Fart' on the list, because I don't think anyone
else on that list is still here.

Man, that was an eye opener too...I haven't seen so many bang paths in a
long time! And someone was asking about a coule of the .com addresses,
because their Arpanet DNS host list needed updating...BY HAND!!!!

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 14:39:21 -0400
From: Michael Kent <mkent@atlantic.net>
Subject: Imperial to Planetary Credit Exchange Rates?

Does anyone have a simple formula for determining the the exchange rate
between an Imperial Credit and a Planetary Credit based on UWP?  I have
only MT material available to me.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 20:00:48 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: MegaTraveller Ship Design

Hiya,
     There seems to be a significant population of people out there who
enjoy using the MegaTraveller ship design system. Would anyone be
interested having a ship design competition for MT run? (Or any volunteers
to run it?)
     I've always firmly believed that you can do profitable merchant ships,
etc, etc, with it. Something like this would put it to the test...
          Jo

------------------------------

Date: 04 Jun 1998 15:17 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: re:Traffic Destinations

Steven wrote:

>  Thus:  "By definition, the vast majority of traffic (at least by tonnage)
>is to ("originating or terminating at") high-traffic systems".

Maybe: The vast majority of traffic is between high population systems.

I think population dominates the traffic statistic; TL, distance, 
  starport class, and some other traits figure significantly, but in the 
  end population is the key.

Implication: I think the population of both the source and destination 
  world are the greatest indicators of traffic between them.

Rob
IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 15:47:55 EDT
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Rob Prior & Hughes CD replies

Rob,

	Nope I never got your message (else you would have recieved a reply and some
thanx). And you can keep the CD, I'd just like the three page report and maybe
some more followup so I can fix what I can.
	On the Gif's, Bruce mentioned some problems there too, even on one he had
sent me. Unluckily I have no idea what the cause might be.
	I've fixed at least some of the suffix problems by appending .txt to the TML
files. I haven't quite got them all though.
	On the HTML files, if I get a list, I'll see what I can do about fixing those
in a future release (Hopefully by than it will be all HTMLed).
	Bruce also had some problems with the Unstuffed MAC programs (which you don't
have on your version), luckily I still have the stuffed ones on the CD too (at
least some of them).



Hughes(?)
	Nope I don't accept credit cards (this isn't a commercial venture). However
in the case of UK purchasers I will trade the CD for 2 CORE products right
now. Just email me privately to work out which ones.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 21:58:20 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: "Letter of Marque" - Payment Methods

Hi
I am just mailing to tell you that my 19 $ are in the mail, so be sure to
reserve a singed copy for me.

- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 10:15:09 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Turnlengths & physics

Buston, John wrote:
> 
> >>If I have a certain hexscale and use past->present->future markers
> >>to depict my ships location and speed what turn length should I use
> >>if I want a 1 hex velocity change represent 1G of acceleration?
> 
> I think (hope) I understand what you mean.
> 
> Would a slight change in the frame of reference for the markers allow
> realistic acceleration to be modeled?:
> 
> Past      = where I was at the start of the turn
> Present = where I will be at the end of the turn
> Future   = where I will be at the end of the next turn if I don't
  ^^^^^^                                                 ^^^^^^^^^^ 
> accelerate
  ^^^^^^^^^^
       
> e.g. accelerate at 1G continually from rest, hex size = 1G acceleration
> move:
> 

> turn 1: past=0, present=1 (acc),future=3 (gap=2*acc)
 coincidental to turn 1 only ^^^ <(1) - (2)> ^^^^^^^
 (1) s/b acc= past + aa >>>>aa(added/subtracted acceleration) 
          and                                      
 by your definition (2)should read future=2 (present + acc(=acc + aa))
                                                          (acc=0+1=1)
  then
> turn 2: past=1, present=4 (3+1), future=8 (previous gap + 2*acc).
               2         =3 (2+1)         4 (3 + (1))     (acc=1+1=2) 
  and
> turn 3: past=4, present=9 (8+1), future=15 (previous gap + 2*acc)
               3         =5 (3+2)         6  (5+2+1)      (acc=2+1=3)   
> etc.

at least that is my take on how this is supposed to work. Maybe I'm out
to lunch?? Best get it right now as I have a major campaign upcoming in
the fall.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 10:21:02 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: BITS - LICENSE RENEWED WITH MARC MILLER

Andy Lilly wrote:
> 
> I just thought I'd let you all know that Marc Miller has now
> renewed/revalidated the license for British Isles Traveller Support (BITS)
> to continue publishing Traveller supplements.
> 
Now that really sounds encouraging. Thanks Andy for the information.
Our collective patience will pay off in the end.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 04 Jun 1998 15:46 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: re:I wanna build a base!!!

Now this is an interesting topic.  What would it take to build
a starport?  Maybe the List can flesh it out.  Here's my Cr0.02.

Downport

Ideas borrowed heavily from White Dwarf article:

I. Airstrip construction (5km long)				KCr50 +    ??
   A. quality/materials						up to MCr1 ??
   B. attached beacon/etc					MCr10      ??
   C. landing-pad-only version (1km diameter circle)		KCr10 +    ??

II. Parkbay construction
   A. # of single parkbays (11 bays, 1 VTOL launch area)	MCr100 ??
   B. # of six-parkbay sets (66 bays, 6 VTOL launch areas)	MCr700 ??

III. Shipyard
   A. Repair yard						BCr10  ??
   B. Construction yard						BCr100 ??
   C. Warehouses						MCr100 ??

IV. Bases
   A. Scout base (+ 1 parkbay)					MCr200 ??
   B. Naval base (+ 1 airstrip and a set of 6 parkbays)		BCr100 ??

V. Terminal
   A. enough building(s) to hold lounges, admin & shops		MCr1-MCr100 ??
   B. quick access to Startown					-
 
VI. Infrastructure
   A. Maglev for starships (airstrip(s) to parkbay(s))		MCr10-BCr1  ??
   B. Maglev for humans						MCr1-MCr100 ??
   C. Control tower						MCr100 +    ??
   D. Fuel station						MCr10-BCr10 ??

So, an 'E' class starport might cost Cr10,000 to MCr10;
    a  'D' class starport might cost MCr110;
    a  'C' class starport might cost MCr220;
    a  'B' class starport might cost BCr11;
    an 'A' class starport might cost BCr110.

I have NO IDEA if these numbers are even CLOSE to what they should be...
And this doesn't include surface-orbit shuttles...

Orbital

??  I haven't a clue!


Rob
IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 16:21:01 -0400
From: "chauncey smith" <Csmith@icdc.com>
Subject: Re: CD ROM index

is this Item for sale? if so how do I order it..
I'm very interested in GDW-CD disk mostly.
thank you.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 21:19:38 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Bits products arrived ;-)

Hi Andy
I just got the BITS books which i orgered over Micheal Koehne (Missing Link). So far i have
greatly enjoyed them. Just also having read your post on the TML on your future plans i can
just wish you the best of luck and keep up the good work! I also wanted to express my
condolences regarding your recent loss.
BTW: A while back i asked about the possibility on sseing the chapters and scenarios added to
the long way home (BITS) in LWH and Gateway (IG) on the Core web site.I also remember reading
about IG never having paid you guys for the books you wrote for them and the rights falling
back to you. So id just like to inquire on how things look at the moment. Id really like to
see this info and i (and my wallet) really dont feel like buying the rest again (even if that
were possible, as i never saw these books in any store in germany).
Thats about all for now, bye now,
- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 07:56:25 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Old Ships and Wear Values

At 09:43 AM 04/06/98 EDT, Robert Eaglestone wrote:

>Thus, things under TL16 will be more trouble than they're worth
>after 100 years.  I'm not sure if a 40-year-old starship is
>worth having -- I think it should be useful for tramp traders;
>however, no serious commercial venure would use them IMTU,
>and after 80 years they are just old leaky buckets.  A corporation
>would make money while making payments, then just trade in old
>ships for new ones as they cross some wear or age boundary.
>Old ships would be recycled, scrapped, or sold, depending on 
>which is most convenient at the time.

I did a quick analysis of TNE starship prices using wear value, and
compared them to the cost of a re-build. I found that ships with wear
values of more than 5 (out of 10) cost more to re-build than you would get
selling them after the re-build. That suggests to me that unless you can't
get a replacement it's a good idea to sell your ship when its wear value
reaches 5, which at +1 wear value per 10 years just happens to be when it's
40 years old. Of course with re-builds every 40 odd years a ship is good
for 100s of years, but after the first century it's going to get less and
less benefit from being rebuilt and break down more and more.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 08:34:46 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Piracy (long)

At 08:53 AM 04/06/98 PDT, Aldrin Bronzarm wrote:

>I see the big prize as being the interplanetary ships.  They are going 
>to be carrying supplies and good to and from the smaller bases / 
>colonies/ outposts / whatever.  It would be easier to plan an attack on 
>one of these ships because there would be a probably be a schedule for 
>them to run on. There would even be the chance that there would only be 
>a skeleton crew on board. Travel only being a day or two, why would they 
>need more.

From Jupiter to Earth at 1G takes about a week, and at turn around you'll
be moving at about 1% of Light Speed (assuming thrusters), which will make
vector matching quite hard. Sensor range will also be a problem. If you're
using TNE or CT style sensors the pirate probably won't be able to see the
ship until it's almost on top of it (and will have to be right on the main
flight path making him vulnerable to patrols) and will ahve a hell of a job
catching up to the vistim before a patrol vessel does. If you use rules
that give longer sensor ranges the pirate will be able to see the victim a
good distance away, but will be seen early, too. I don't think many pirates
will have military grade sensors, because they'll be hard to explain. Those
that do will probably be privateers gone pirate, and IMO the IN will be
very interested in catching them so they can make examples of them.

IMO any system that has enough traffic to make piracy attractive will have
enough money to be able to patrol the area around any object that has a
significant number of people or amount of industry. This forces the pirates
to stay out in mid-system and play 'catchup' as the merchants come past.
This is aninherently risky thing to do, because a pirate won't know a ship
is a patrol ship pretending to be a merchant until it gets reasonably
close, but the patrol ship knows that any ship just sitting in mid-system
is either up to no good or in trouble. The pirate can't afford to sit and
wait too long trying to get an ID, because every minute he waits the other
ship will be that much harder to catch before it gets inside the patrol
umbrella of its destination world.

With HEPLaR (or other reaction engines) in system travel takes a very long
time. IMO this means that any cargo of reasonable value will go by
in-system jump. Even going after ships moving in N-space between planets
will be difficult because they'll probably see you a long time before you
can intercept, and that means that any patrol boat with a decent number of
G-turns can probably get there about the same time the pirate does, and the
patrol ship doesn't have the match vectors or jump out afterwards only
intercept, and so it's got a much easier job.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 12:24:22 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Re Coyns

>Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 04:06:37 EDT
>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Coyns
>
>Have the 36 Coyns been fully detailed?  I'm thinking in the Droyne AM.  I know
>6 have diagrams of Humaniti, Droyne, Vargr, Aslan, k'kree, and Hivers, but
>what are the other 30?
>
>Gary

"Modern Coyns" as of 1050-1116
from AM5, p22

   1         2	      3          4          5	       6
1  Worker    Warrior     Drone      Technician Sport  Leader
2  Void -    Soil        Air        Gas        Water  Fire +
3  Darkness- Cold-       Noise-     Signal     Heat+  Light+
3  Humaniti  Vargr       Aslan      Droyne+    Hive   Centaur
5  Genesis   Aspiration+ Sacrifice- Defeat-    Death- Achievment+
6  Beast-    Mercenary   Voyages    Justice+   Chance Phoenix+

A negative sign indicates a negatively aspected coyn
A positive sign indicates a positively aspected coyn
No sign indicates a neutrally aspected coyn.

When casting, coyns continue to be drawn until a top-line result occurs;
the aspect with the most coyns drawn indicates subcaste (Positive, Neutral,
or Negative).

Caste		Positive	Neutral		Negative
Worker		Building	Laboring	Farming
Warrior		Voyaging	Guard		Battling
Drone		Social		Priestly	Family
Technician	Dreaming	Artificer	Fixing
Sport		Finding		Speaker		Seeking
Leader		Leader of L.	Priestly	Military

this gives some real insight into droyne psychology.

Note that archaeological finds of coyns often lack Aslan, K'Kree, and hive,
Note that Hive shows a Hiver, and Centaur is a K'Kree.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 12:45:35 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Re Nobility

Keven suggested new structures with the following table:
>  SS              Imp Title          Planetary Title
>   A                UMC                 UMC
>   B             Knight/Dame        Knight/Dame
>   C           Baron/Baroness      Baron/Baroness
>   D          Marquis/Marquessa   Marquis/Marquessa
>   E           Count/Countess       Count/Countess
>   F            Duke/Duchess         Duke/Duchess
>   G          Viscout/<??>         Viscount/<??>
>   H          Viceroy/<??>         Viceroy/<??>
>   I       Archduke/Archduchess    Prince/Princess
>   J         Prince/Princess        King/Queen
>   K       Crown Prince/Princess      --/--
>   L         Emperor/Empress          --/--

I'd object to Viscount being higher than a duke... as a viscount is a
powerful baron or a weak count... roughly equivalent to a marquis.

IMTU, Viscount is an alternate title for a Marquis. Read it as Vice Count.
(Bad pun, but reflective of the real relationship. Maybe use Grand Duke, or
push duke down one and add archcount/grand count (only a few historical
"archcounts", none were official, but were counts/Comtes with other
counts/comtes looking to them.

Also, again IMTU, based upon the Noble career from MT/CTSupp4, SS A is
Gentry (implied by being able to enter the Noble Career), not truly nobles,
but not truly commoners, either.

And, again imtu, but this time based upon Real World  heraldry, a
hereditary knighthood is a Bannerette, sometimes corrupted to baronette
(even tho real baronettes were titles sold to raise money for the corwn of
england). I put a Banerette/KnightCdr/Baronette as B + 1/2; any hereditary
knight (rolled SS of 11) as a Bannerette. Any non-bannerette promoted to
soc 12 outside the Noble Career generally gets a Knight Commander, rather
than baron, unless further promoted.

Viceroy as a title is also quizical; it was generally not a noble title,
but a title of naval governorship.

Also note that historically, grand duke usually meant a duke of the royal
family, or a royal lineage's Duke (such as Finland under Imperial Russia)
where the Duchy had a Royal Family, but were not Sovereigns.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 13:57:42 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: New info on asteroids...

This was mentioned on Cnn's web site today and is taken from Nature's
web site:

"Disruption of kilometre-sized asteroids by energetic collisions 

Recent numerical studies suggest that 'rubble-pile' asteroids
(gravitationally bound aggregates of collisional debris) are common in
the
Solar System, and that self-gravitation may equal or exceed material
cohesion for planetary bodies as small as several hundred metres.
Because
analytical scaling relations for impact cratering and disruption do not
extend to this size regime, where gravity and material strength are both
important, detailed simulations are needed to predict how small
asteroids
evolve through impact, and also to ascertain whether powerful explosions
offer a viable defence against bodies headed for a collision with Earth.
Here the authors present simulations, using a smooth-particle
hydrodynamics code, of energetic impacts into small planetary bodies
with internal structure ranging from solid rock to porous aggregate.
They
find that the outcome of a collision is very sensitive to the
configuration
of pre-existing fractures and voids in the target. A porous asteroid (or
one
with deep regolith) damps the propagation of the shock wave from the
impactor, sheltering the most distant regions, while greatly enhancing
the
local deposition of energy. Multiple-component asteroids (such as
contact
binaries) are also protected, because the shock wave cannot traverse the
discontinuity between the components. The authors conclude that the
first impact to significantly fragment an asteroid may determine its
subsequent collisional evolution, and that internal structure will
greatly
influence attempts to disrupt or deflect an asteroid or comet headed
towards Earth. 
E Asphaug, S J Ostro, R S Hudson, D J Scheeres & W Benz 
Disruption of kilometre-sized asteroids by energetic collisions
(Letter To Nature) 
Nature 393, 437 (1998)"


While this letter is specifically about deflecting asteroids on a earth
collision path, if this is true it would have considerable implications
regarding asteroid mining as well, not to mention asteroid hulls....


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 14:12:27 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Pirates take the whole ship? (Re: Piracy)

Wed, 03 Jun 1998 18:07:20 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven
Hudson)
>>Including it's make and model and state or wear (similary to
>>analysing the state of a typewriter in a ransom note).  Also the
>>hear you, and see the inside of your ship (unless you expect
>>to sell the ship you took with them in it).  If my PC expected to
>>interact personally with NPCs and not give any clues about who
>>they are I would say no.

>  So? "Make and model and state of wear" is only relevant if I'm
>face to face with the authorities, in which case I'm screwed anyway.

You can be spotted using your vac suit on any airless world.  It
is also fairly easy to simply ask to see someone's Vac suit.  But,
before we beat the idea of vac suits as a give away to death and
you run out with various disguising techniques, this was only one
example that I came up with off the top of my head.  They
will also beable to report the weapons they are carrying,  the
race of the crew.  The general size of the people.  Now there will
be things you can do to mitigate it, but person contact is going to
give away clues.  I'm not saying it will be avoided at all costs,
but it will be a factor.

>Why not send over cannon-fodder rather than the skilled principals in
>the operation?

Because if they get caught the rat on you?

>  The crew can be dumped in their launch, lifeboat, marooned, ransomed,
>whatever. If this is impractical most hijackings are mass murders, yes?

Well, if they don't have a launch, etc. then you either have to take
your chances on what they obeserve not being enough or you have to
kill them.

>>Yeah, maybe they might need to trash the computer data banks.  I
>>don't see them needing to take the whole ship.
>
>  Gee, I wonder how badly screwed the computer/ship/owner are with up
>to a few MCr in damages there. Even worse, what if there's a repeater
>downloading sensor data to a recorder in engineering, or the captains
>cabin, or hardwired into the back of the cookie cupboard?

Well, first of all, computers are only a few MCr in CT, in MT a
merchant would have a computer that cost in the hundreds of thousand
of credits.  Also, you are assuming that the only way to destroy
the data in it is to destroy the computer.  You probably just take
the memory modules.  As to a repeater, they won't work if they
get spotted and not everyone will have them (if piracy is uncommon)
for the same reason that most people don't have devices to stop
carjackings (though in Traveller there is less incentive because,
unlike the carjacking devices, the repeater won't stop them
taking your ship, it will only give you a bit of satisfaction
to know they have a better chance of getting caught).  In any
case, data from a computer doesn't make the value of eye witness
info useless, it only adds to it.

>  I wonder of the authorities (or insurance companies) provide rewards
>for material evidence leading to the termination of a pirate operation.

It would be a lot less than if you took the entire ship.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 15:24:57 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: I wanna build a base!!!

>Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 07:24:33 -0400
>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
>Subject: I wanna build a base!!!
>
>Anybody know how much it would cost to build the various types of starports 
>referenced to tech level in the 3I?  And where could I find this stuff out?
>
>Keven
>
>

Pocket Empires (in the charts at the end) gives cost and time factors for
upgrading starports from dirt up to Class A.  Haven't really played with
them myself, so I can't say how useful the numbers are.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 17:29:36 -0400
From: "Bob Sanders" <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: RE: Piracy

I will not get involved...  repeat... I will not...

ah the heck with it.

Someone wrote an excellent point...

>I have been lurking for some time now and this is my first input to the
>mailing list, so bear with me.
>
>Seeing the discussions Piracy and the 100-diameter limitations. I have
>notice that everyone is limiting them selves to a 100-diameter limit.
>
>There has to be more than traveling from a world surface/orbit to
>100-diameters out, through Jump, to 100-diameters out - to the world
>surface/orbit.  Granted the size of the world and starport will be a
>factor in the equation, but I am not going to worry about that.

NOT to mention that in MTU ships have jump exit errors that increase the
distance from the home world.  It works like this...

A jump takes 6-8 days.  Right.
The planet and system is moving how fast?  Fast enough.  Some one else can
do the math...

With the random factor of exiting jump space and the distance involved there
are some ships that are popping out in at all distances from the target
planet.  A good pirate will wait, out from the planet, with all systems shut
down and wait for the "straggler" to fall into his area.

In a large system, with 1000's of ships entering all the time, some will end
up waaaaaayyyy out.  If the pirate has a FAST ship they can make it there,
bounce the ship, take the expensive items, (forget the cargo, grab  the
computers, passenger storage, vehicles, etc) and JUMP.

In the end, if you want it, it can happen.

Bob

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #558
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Friday, June 5 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 559



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Realistic Appraches to Prevention.
Re: Imperial Navy taskings
Subs & Sandwiches (short!)
Re: Hijacking summation?
Nobility Question
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #557
Piracy vs Intra-System vessels
Re: Nobility Question
Re: Thoughts on sensors
Re: Coyns, ancients and greys
Re: Thoughts on sensors
Piracy vs Intra-System vessels
Re: Thoughts on sensors
Re: MegaTraveller Ship Design

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 16:09:16 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Realistic Appraches to Prevention.

In a lot of the disucussion on this list, a lot of posts attempt
to show that some form of undesirable human behavoir is impossible 
by describing how it would be stopped.  The presumption seems to
be that if nobody can come up with a way around it, then it
can be presumed to be impossible.  I find this unrealistic.

The lesson I take from history is that the odds of people
finding a way around any such plan are high enough that
you are better off figuring it is going to happen.  This
has been true enough in law enforcement that most of
the careful officials never attempt to claim that a new
plan will eliminate a crime.  Those that do are usually
proven to optimistic.

After all, if we were to take someone from the 50's and
describe all the monitoring camera's, forensic techincis,
etc. that we have today, the approach described above would
lead him to conclude the the crime of breaking and enter
would be impossible.   After all, the cost of such a system
is minor compared the cost of the valuable in most houses.
Responses of how such approaches might not work would
degenerate in to ideas for having multiple cameras
so one can watch the others (or hiding them so they
can't be circumvented), motions detectors, etc, whether
they would be required by insurance, etc.

That is on reason I am so dubious of claims that any crime
would be "impossible" in Imperium.  Another is one that is 
encapsulated in the example above is that every system that 
can protect something will be used as long as the cost is only 
fraction of what it is protecting.  After all, the cost of the 
contents of a house is a lot more than the cost of a security 
system (and if you included the safety of the occupants, there 
is no comparison).  Yet home security systems are far from 
universal.  The reason is that this approach misses the fact 
that the odds of the crime also enter into the equation.  You 
don't spend hundreds on a security system if you thing that a
dead bolt lock will keep the odds of some breaking in acceptably 
low.  This is the same approach that keeps people from moving
their arms enough to fasten their seat belts in the face of
the death and horrible injury that they could prevent.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 16:21:36 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Navy taskings

Thu, 04 Jun 1998 00:13:36 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven
Hudson)
> >Well, the point I was making is that the Navy doesn't "have money
> >left over".  What you are getting to here is the issue that the
> >Navy has all those ship it owns for "free" in peace times.  The
> >issues of whether retasking those ships detracts from readyness and
> >wether their are enough to wipe out piracy (getting into the
> >sub issues of the number of ships it takes to patrol a system)
> >were all reacent covered in depth.
 
>   Covered in depth, yes. There's no evidence that partial tasking of
> wartime light warships to internal security roles represents any real
> reduction in their military readiness.

Well, that is one point of view.  I think it is wrong as I
metioned previously.
 
>   As for the rest, obviously the issue of Imperial Navy preparations
> and deployments needs to be discussed again. Perhaps a limited case
> such as the Spinward Marches and Corridor will be sufficient.

<Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Runs away screaming...>

More seriously I've seen nothing that would cast new light
on the issue.  You will have to get into it without me.

(Ironically, I recently posts on the "GURPS side" a comment
that nobody beats a dead horse like the TML beats a dead
horse. :-)

>   Of course, the "money left over" issue originally referred to whether
> or not the Imperium would have the capacity for internal security patrols.
> You agreed that the Navy will spend money on internal security. You seem
> to feel that they will not or can not do this at a level sufficient to 
> make piracy exceedingly rare.

Depends on what you mean by exceedingly rare.  I think piracy
will be uncommon enough that the average starfarer will hear
about it happening but will probably not encounter it themselves.

> >>  Try that again? I thought it was the presumed investment in the
> >>jump-station/tanker system that produced the saving, and that the
> >>taxes were what paid for the massive expansion of the Imperial Navy
> >>tanker assets that your last suggestion seemed to require.

> >Well, dropping out your slipping in the term "massive" (and noteing
> >that tankers weren't the only alternative) both the investment and

>   Massive applies to the huge increase needed in tanker assets (IN to fit
> the strategic requirements) that makes possible the failure to adopt the
> system on the frontiers or in Ilelish in the period between development
> and the Rebellion.

I don't think they would be "massive".  The certainly wouldn't need
to be the most common type of ship.

>   Tankers were, however, your latest theory for implementing jump-stations
> without the negative strategic implications that might have substantially
> delayed deployment of said system in the frontier zones, such that the
> lack of said system in MT wouldn't comprise a definitive statement as to
> their impossibility.

Actually the were my first example.  I later through of others.  To me,
none of them have been discredited.  

>   The tankers were your proposal to evade the huge strategic liability
> that freighters relying om jump-stations represent.

Yeah, except that jump stations don't need to be static.

> If necessary from
> the POV of the Navy, then _why_ would shippers see the taxes as necessary
> when they'll reap the savings of the technology regardless of the 
> military repercussions?

I'm not sure what you mean.  _You_ claim they wouldn't exist for any
traffic because the would be taken out.  If that is true, then the
precauations mentions certainly _are_ necessary for shipping companies
to reap the savings.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 16:53:43 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Subs & Sandwiches (short!)

[We have covered this thread, but I was unclear in one sentence
in my last post....]
Thu, 04 Jun 1998 02:39:43 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven
Hudson)
> >proof against hijacking and I don't see how someone expecting
> >you helps if you simply don't show up.]
 
>   If you can't fake being the passengers and crew, then you've got
> very real problems. OC, if you seize the ship in time to reset the
> Jump, that's different, but it means the danger period is quite short.

I actually, I had meant the above to say how I didn't see how
being expected would stop piracy (getting back to an earlier 
point) since the effect at your destination of piracy is that 
you either simply don't show up or you do show up but you
have been robbed.  I just wrote
it too fast and forgot to insert a reference to piracy after
the reference to hijacking.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 17:09:02 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Hijacking summation?

Thu, 04 Jun 1998 04:00:35 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven
Hudson)
> >You can't say this for sure and it depends on who "someone"
> >is.  If you are talking about detail x ships to find them,
> >then the loses to that pirate will have to be seen as being
> >worth those resources.

>   Again, I use question marks for technical reasons. Further, I think
> we've gone over your curious insistence that proposals that you disagree
> with have to match some bizarre ideological view that exceedingly narrow
> economic analyses should be applied to fundamentally political decisions.

Hogwash.  I just insist that if someone has show something
based on their point of view, they have only proven this
it doesn't work in their point of view and that an 
economic analysis that is based on a set of assumptions
only holds when those assumption hold.

I would also caution you to not label any point of view
as "bizzare" or "ideological".  I don't think you posts
can be considered so much more perceptive than others as 
to justify that.

> >Transhipping may grow eventually.  But they aren't required
> >for such a system and supposing a situation in which
> >bases big enough to allow the services listed doesn't 
> >argue against a system for fuel only.
 
>   Remember, while "high (internal) capacity" ships are economically
> advantageous because they don't have to carry their own fuel, _any_
> ship is better off with the improved turnaround from not having to
> land that's obtained by using a facility at the 100-D limit.

But again, you are not required to take one benefit to get
the other.  So if circumstance make it impossible to get
one (because the station are to big and stationary) that
does nothing to mean that one can't simple settle for
the other benefit.
> >They were _one_ example out of a number of ways in
> >which they could be implimented.  But in any case, 
> >you would still just need a big ship with a lot
> >of fuel and hoses you could pull away fast.

>   They were the last (IIRC) effort of yours to evade other presuemd
> flaws in the implementation program. If you abandon them so quickly
> why did you bother to propound them as a solution in the first place?

I didn't abandon them.  You never realy responded to them.
I'm not going to keep repeating the same point over an
over again.  It is a waste of bandwidth.
> >Because they can be hidden on asteroids or moved under
> >planetary defenses, or maybe you have two are three of
> >them.  I see nothing in them that would even make them
> >all that expensive.
 
>   Why not install weapons if they're "ships" rather than tanks with pumps?
> OC, once hiding their dependent shipping tonnage is still screwed.

No.  They come out when the ships that need them arrive.
The enemy ships have to show up at just that time and
if they can catch and defeat convoys so realiably, then it really
doesn't matter what system you are using.

> >Sure.  I never said it wasn't.  I think there will be a cost
> >associated with them and they will be used to the degree
> >that the need is seen to justify the cost.

>   The explicit cost of the available resources will be very low,
> and given the Imperiums reason for being the justification easy.
> All IMO, of course.

Well, we went over that the last time....

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 05 Jun 1998 10:59 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Nobility Question

Suppose we have a chap who's a Duke; the Duke of Rhylanor,
for example.   Might he also hold the title Count of XYZ,
Marquis of Rhylanor, Baron of Fezzelbottom Fens, Sir Foodley?
Or holds he but one title?

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 09:16:36 PDT
From: "Aldrin Bronzarm" <bronzearm@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #557

Boy did I shake the hornets nets.

>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 12:05:59 -0400
>From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
>Subject: Re: Piracy (long)
>
>Aldrin Bronzearm wrote:
>Seeing the discussions Piracy and the 100-diameter limitations. I have
>
>> notice that everyone is limiting them selves to a 100-diameter limit.
>>
>> There has to be more than traveling from a world surface/orbit to
>> 100-diameters out, through Jump, to 100-diameters out  to the world
>> surface/orbit.  Granted the size of the world and starport will be a
>> factor in the equation, but I am not going to worry about that.
>
>The 100 diameter limit is really only important if you're trying to 
raid
>starships as opposed to space ships. You can raid an insystem freighter
>nearly anywhere.
>

That is the point I was making.  It seem that the worry is that there is 
very little time to raid a ship trying to make its way out to the 100-D 
limit. When you have nothing but time when traveling within the system.

>>
>>
>> For going after ship traveling the interstellar trade routes, some of
>> captains will for go buying fuel at the starport and others will 
brave
>> skimming a gasgaint.
>
>Only a foolish or desperate merchant would skim a gas giant.  You risk 
your
>entire ship and in the case of HEPlar engines, you end up burning all 
the
>fuel you skimmed when you try to leave orbit.  At a mere 100 Cr per 
dTon for
>unrefined fuel, why would you risk the giant?  Now, if you're out in 
the
>wilds with no starport and only a gas giant to refuel from, that's a
>different story.  But no pirate would be able to sustain themselves
>indefinitely while waiting for his prey to stumble into the system.
>

When you are short on cash you do desperate things. As for burning up 
all your fuel trying to escape the gravity well, I dont buy that. A 
good case is the communication satellite that they flew around the moon 
to place it in a higher orbit. It did not have the fuel to boot it 
directly into the orbit, but it did have enough fuel to escape the 
gravity well of earth and be captured by the moon. Which promptly sent 
it back.  Also the Mars Global Surveyor, it has been skimming the 
Martian atmosphere. A ship would have to keep the orbit high enough so 
it will only take a little thrust to escape. After the last pass through 
the atmosphere of the gasgaint at the high point of the orbit fire the 
thrusters to raise the low point out of the atmosphere and the next 
flyby would (probably, with a little help if needed) slingshot you out 
of the GG gravity well. 

>> Travel between the gasgaint and the port of call
>> will take more that a few hours (you can do the math if you want).  
The
>> area between the port of call and the gasgaint would give ample time 
to
>> strike and remove all the cargo and be able to jump out at the sign 
of a
>> patrol ship.
>
>This is exactly why Merchants don't do that.
>
>>
>>
>> I see the big prize as being the interplanetary ships.  They are 
going
>> to be carrying supplies and good to and from the smaller bases /
>> colonies/ outposts / whatever.  It would be easier to plan an attack 
on
>> one of these ships because there would be a probably be a schedule 
for
>> them to run on. There would even be the chance that there would only 
be
>> a skeleton crew on board. Travel only being a day or two, why would 
they
>> need more.
>>
>
>These are also the type of ships that have escorts.  Convoy duty etc.
>

Only Mega Corps and military supplies ships will have escorts worth a 
hoot.  There will still be many out there that will be unescorted.  The 
big trick here is, dont go after the ones that will have the escorts.



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 12:56:27 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Piracy vs Intra-System vessels

A thought about raiding Intra-system vessels (supply shuttles, etc):

Orbital mechanics can be a pirate's best friend. If a pirate knows the
positions of two trade points in the system (for example, the mainworld
and a major mining station) and their orbits, he will be able to calculate
with Navigation skill what the most time (for thrust-plate vessels) or
fuel (for HEPlar vessels) efficient path is between the two for any time in
the future. Included in this path calculation will be the exact velocities
of craft at any point on this path - how fast they must be going at
point Z on the path at time T to make sure they match velocities with
their destination when they get there. Since cargo shuttles are usually
pretty standardized, you can make do with very few variables here.

If the path is at any point outside the 100-diameter limit of solar or
planetary bodies, you're in business. In a neighboring system, take a
course (allowing for relative velocities of the star systems and any
other numbers you can crunch) that will place you on a parallel vector
(direction _and_ velocity) to a supply shuttle in your target system
on the most efficient path. If you have intelligence that tells you when
the shuttle leaves, or if there is a shuttle every X hours, even better.
Once you've matched the vector, jump.

When you reach the target system, you should be in a good target area
and at a vector that will be similar to that of every ship nearby that is
taking this path. Make the modest course change to match a nice
juicy shuttle, intimidate it into surrender, ditch the crew out the
hatch (be nice, give them vacc suits/rescue balls) and swallow that
95-ton shuttle in your 100dtn capture bay (as found on the classic
CT 400-tn Corsair ship). Jump away long before the gendarmes
(in orbit around the most valuable in-system targets rather than zipping
about with intercept vectors) can intercept.

You're not flying the stolen ship, so you don't need to spend time you
don't have getting control of it. It's not a starship, so the Imperials won't
be as interested. And even if you can't get anything for the cargo
(say you regularly use up all the supplies for life support and keeping
the crew happy) the shuttle, even at 80% markdown, is still worth
7 MCr or so.

This tactic will work in a Traveller universe where:
a> Ships don't have to exit jump only at the 100d limit, they
can exit farther out if they want.
b> Calculation of jump exit points is precise on a star system
scale, rather than on a parsec scale.
c> Ships maintain the same velocity on jump exit that they had
on jump entrance.

The several hour variance in jump exit times may or may not be
a problem - if you come out the same distance from the star you
planned on (and some explanations of jump space support that
you will even if you are a day early or late) then your vector should
still be appropriate for the position on the flight path you are jumping to.

What you will get is Piracy that is usually directed at intra-system craft
(using jump capabilites mainly for the getaway) but attacking starships
on the odd occaision when the opportunity presents itself. The Pirate
will appear out of nowhere, spend an hour or two overtaking the
nearest shuttle on the flight path, grab it and jump away while the
local patrols are still warming up their engines.

The local patrol will (once they've lost some shuttles) start taking what
countermeasures they can - but unless they have the authority and
resources to either send a near-continuous stream of patrol ships 
along the best transit path, or force the supply shuttles to convoy,
there isn't much they can do.

One countermeasure is to have the supply shuttles take a less-efficient
path - the vector differences between the best path and the second-best
path can be radically different (path two might loop around an inner planet
or something). This will cost time and money, so like all countermeasures
there is an expense involved that will not be paid unless a need is seen.

The port authorities might also start taking a second or third hard look
at all those independent miners who jump in-system every couple of
weeks in their beat-up Seekers. Even if they are totally innocent, 
they might fall under suspicion as spies for the nearby pirates.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 10:25:00 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Nobility Question

At 10:59 AM 6/5/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Suppose we have a chap who's a Duke; the Duke of Rhylanor,
>for example.   Might he also hold the title Count of XYZ,
>Marquis of Rhylanor, Baron of Fezzelbottom Fens, Sir Foodley?
>Or holds he but one title?

He could hold several titles.. As I recall, Duke (later Archduke) Norris
was also Baron Yori.

This provides a nice social out for the high-ranking.  They can go to a
party and be announced at a lesser rank, bringing himseld to the level of
the other people in the room.
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:55:55 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Thoughts on sensors

>Active sensors generally have two major advantages over passive sensors:
>1)  Active sensors are good at determining range

Some day (when the DSR2 rewrite starts...) this will go into the rules. 
The first turn you fire at a target with a passive sensor, all fire
will be at -2 DM or so since you don't have an exact range, unless the sensor
operator makes a Impossible sensor roll, +1 DM for every point of signal.
Active sensors are immune. So, if you're stalking someone, you have to decide
to light him up with LIDAR just before firing or take the chance of missing.

(But note that this still doesn't helpw ith AEMS vs LIDAR.)

>In the DSR rules, it should be
>noted at LIDARs generally use dust, atmospheric, and other obscurement-related
>penalties appropriate to the visual signature (or IR signature, depending on
>design), not the radar signature.
Good point - although I think what I really need to do is just have a whole
new column for LIDAR (for example, visual signatures go up as the target 
gets closer to the sun, which LIDAR shouldn't...but you're right that LIDAR
should use the visual dust etc. modifiers (or, more precisely, half of the
modifiers.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 14:16:02 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Coyns, ancients and greys

>"Modern Coyns" as of 1050-1116

Maybe Coyns from 1130+ have a Virus Coyn? Replacing one of the "special"
coyns?  lol.

Thanx for the help (both Hans and William).  This is very interesting and
should come in useful.  Hans, how did your "secret of the ancients" work out?
I'm using the "official" secret and a couple others all mixed together.

For one, I am using an alien race like the Greys (to answer someone else's
question) as a race that became starfaring after the Ancients Final War, but
before the Vilani (and by some time... say c-20,000 Imperial)... Their
homeworld, etc is a great mystery, but they've payed visits to Terra, Vland,
Sylea, Zhant but always stay just beyond the ability to detect them.  Maybe
they were an experiment of one of the draysaskin.  Whatever the case, they
have interest in humaniti. 

Further, there is at least one other "elder race" as well, maybe many.  (I
just like the idea of Babylon 5's First Ones too much to leave things solely
to the "younger" races).  Some have died, some have gone to other galaxies.
Many ruins are mixed among the ancients (in fact ancient sites were happily
inhabited by more than a couple).  Most have erased all evidence of their
existence (or been erased themselves).  Some have hung around and are watching
the younger races (and maybe even interfering now and then).  Most are gone.

The few that remain in the Charted Space are way above being affected (or even
noticed) by Virus.

Of course, this is way beyond my players (at least for now) and is mostly an
excercise in the abilities of (really) high tech levels. : )

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:13:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on sensors

Bruce Alan Macintosh writes:
> 
> >Active sensors generally have two major advantages over passive sensors:
> >1)  Active sensors are good at determining range
> 
> Some day (when the DSR2 rewrite starts...) this will go into the rules. 
> The first turn you fire at a target with a passive sensor, all fire
> will be at -2 DM or so since you don't have an exact range, unless the
> sensor operator makes a Impossible sensor roll, +1 DM for every point of
> signal. Active sensors are immune. So, if you're stalking someone, you have
> to decide to light him up with LIDAR just before firing or take the chance
> of missing. 

Incidentally, it should be _impossible_ to hit with a meson gun without a
rangefinding sensor.
> 
> (But note that this still doesn't helpw ith AEMS vs
> LIDAR.)

This is probably because the LIDAR rules are _wrong_.  For the same sensor size
and power output, a lidar has dramatically lower range than a radar -- range
for an active sensor is generally proportional to fourth root (power output *
sensor area * wavelength) and inversely proportional to the square root of the
scan width.  As such, 10u IR lidar should have only 10% of the range of 10cm
radar.  The advantage of lidar is that you can focus it on a much smaller area
- -- if you focus as tight as you can go, the lidar has 10x the range (and is
scanning 1/10,000 the area) and with its higher resolution is a much better
targeting sensor.
> 
> >In the DSR rules, it should be
> >noted at LIDARs generally use dust, atmospheric, and other
> >obscurement-related penalties appropriate to the visual signature (or IR
> >signature, depending on design), not the radar signature.
> Good point - although I think what I really need to do is just have a whole
> new column for LIDAR (for example, visual signatures go up as the target 
> gets closer to the sun, which LIDAR shouldn't...but you're right that LIDAR
> should use the visual dust etc. modifiers (or, more precisely, half of the
> modifiers.)

If the issue is actually obscurement (such as atmosphere) rather than
glare/noise (dust), you would use the full modifier -- it subtracts both from
the signal which reaches the target, and the signal which is returned.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jun 98 21:05 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Piracy vs Intra-System vessels

Moin Walter Smith,

> Orbital mechanics can be a pirate's best friend. 

	sounds nice. If you have a tender it would be even possible,
	to take the boat, instead of only the cargo. Do you like
	something like this :

	----------------------------------------------------------

	Trade warning for Vland				156-34

	Cargo shuttles and ship boats have been recently lost to a
	privateers fleet operating around Vland. It can be for sure that
	they use a Maechti Battle Tender from Vulkan production.  Its
	most likely that they have a hidden base in the Archipelago or
	one the Oulpath as they are operating with a Letter of Marque of
	the Duke of Usdiki.

	The stat's of the Tender follow :

General Data:
    Displacement :    900 dt 		Tech Level :    10
    Length       :     72 meters 	Volume     : 12600 m3
    Hull         :   3927 m2     	Armor      :    50
    Mass         :  12928 tons   	Price      :   951 MCr
Engineering Data:
    Hull             : 255 m3, 18.2 dt, 2553 tons
    Fusion Plant     : 1750 MW, 1137 m3, 81.2 dt, 3518 tons
    Jump performance : 1 Parsec*1800dt (Drive 504 m3, 36.0 dt, Mass 1512 tons)
         preperation : 15 minutes per parsec - 15 minutes 1 parsec
    G-Rating (HEPlaR): 2.0G (Thusters 1300 MW, 130 m3, 130 tons)
    G-Turns          : 18 (49 using jump fuel) 80.8 m3 of fuel each
    Fuel scope       : 117.3 m3, 8 hours to refine 3982 m3, 284.5 dt
Electronics:
    Controll system  : Dynamic linked, 3*Fib Dynamic computers
    Bridge           :   workstation (captain) 14.0 m3 
                     :   workstation (2nd) 14.0 m3 
    Avionics         :   img.EMS, grav.pos 
    Commo            :   Radio 30,000 km 
                     :   Laser 1000 AU 
                     :   Maser 1000 AU 
    Sensors          :   Passive EMS 150,000 km 27.0 m3 30.0 tons 
                     :   Active EMS 300,000 km 130.0 MW 26.0 m3 52.0 tons 
                     :   AEMS Jammer 150,000 km 180.0 MW 18.0 m3 36.0 tons 
                     : 6 crewstations (gunner) 
                     : 6 TL10-MFD 150,000 km 12.0 tons 
                     : 6 Pencil EMS 150,000 km 7.6 MW 18.0 m3 18.0 tons 
                     : 18 LaserComs 300,000 km 
                     : 2 crewstation (pd lasers) 
                     : 2 TL10-PD-MFD 60,000 km 
                     : 2 Pencil EMS 60,000 km 6.5 MW 26.0 tons 
                     : 4 crewstations (sandcaster) 
    Engine           :   workstation (chief) 14.0 m3 
    Avionics         :   img.EMS, grav.pos 
    Commo            :   Radio 30,000 km 
                     :   Passive EMS 120,000 km 11.0 tons 
                     : 4 crewstations (machinist) 
Armament:
    Offensive        : 3 250 Mj ultra heavy laser 6.9 MW 264.0 m3 264.0 tons 
                     :   10:1/13-40 20:1/13-40 40:1/6-20 80:1/3-10 
                     : 3 rate of fire 100 62.1 MW 
                     : 2 HPG Banks, 3rd laser uses JD-HPG 100.0 m3 200.0 tons 
    Missiles         : 2 missile launcher 42.0 m3 21.0 tons 
                     : 2 auto reloader 6 missiles per round 
    Defensive        : 4 sandcasters 42.0 m3 50.0 tons 
                     :   20 cannisters 1d10x5 
    Point defense    : 6 65 Mj laser 42.0 m3 61.0 tons 
                     :   2:1/6-20 4:1/3/10 8:1/2-5 
                     : 6 rate of fire 200 34.2 MW 
    Special          : 4 decoy dispencer 
                     :   electromagnetic masking 4.2 MW 84.0 m3 42.0 tons 
Accomodations:
    Life Support     :   Grav 39.42 MW, 136.4 m3, 212 tons for 7580 m3
    Captain          :   large stateroom 84.0 m3 
    Officers         : 4 medium staterooms 35.0 m3 
    Crew             : 25 small staterooms 21.0 m3 
    Passengers       : 20 small staterooms 28.0 m3 
                     :   canteen 210.0 m3 15.0 tons 
                     :   salon 140.0 m3 10.0 tons 
                     :   common area 185.0 m3 12.0 tons 
                     : 6 crewstations (damage control) 
                     :   repair shop 336.0 m3 210.0 tons 
                     :   sick bay 112.0 m3 50.0 tons 
                     :   low berth (12) 84.0 m3 15.0 tons 
    Facilities       : 6 airlocks 
                     :   large cargo hatch 
                     : 3 sdb grapples 420.0 m3 420.0 tons 
                     : 6 sdb airlock connectors 
                     : 3 sdb fuel connectors 
                     :   sdb missile bay to cargo connector 40.0 m3 40.0 tons 
    Cargo            : 48 missiles in cradles 10.0 tons 
Crew : (45% compmul, 523 maint) 45 humans
	 5 command	 2 maneuvering	 1 electronics	10 engineering
	 5 maintenance	12 gunnery	 6 troops	 2 stewards
	 2 medical

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 13:03:12 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on sensors

Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Incidentally, it should be _impossible_ to hit with a meson gun without a
> rangefinding sensor.

Not impossible, simply very difficult...aim it at the target, fire, and
look for the flash as the Mesons decay. If the flash obscures the ship,
you're firing short, if the ship abscures the flash, you're firing long.
'walk' the beam decay along the line of sight until you hit, sort of
like walking an artillery barrage into a target.

Of course if you have spotters on other ships, you can derive a firing
solution  without firing a shot, all you need is accurate locations on
your own ships. Voila! Accurate range info with passive sensors only.


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 10:28:17 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: MegaTraveller Ship Design

Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com wrote:
> 
> Hiya,
>      There seems to be a significant population of people out there who
> enjoy using the MegaTraveller ship design system. Would anyone be
> interested having a ship design competition for MT run? (Or any volunteers
> to run it?)
>      I've always firmly believed that you can do profitable merchant ships,
> etc, etc, with it. Something like this would put it to the test...
>           Jo
I'm not much into ship design, but think the idea is a good one,
especially for those using MT and those of us who like any version from
CT to T4+. I for one would like to see the CT Leviathan(all variations)
updated through to T4. I have been using Andrew A's design program to
try it in that format, but it still needs some tweeking to bring it into
line. At first I didn't think it would work when I looked at the deck
plans because there didn't seem to be enough fuel tankage alloted.
However, the basic ship as described seems to fit into a TL15 design.  
I can't see how the ship could be profitable though without major
subsidizing. 

Jim

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #559
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, June 5 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 560



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Coyns
Re: Thoughts on sensors
Re: Thoughts on sensors
Re: Thoughts on sensors
Leviathan (was re: MT Ship design...)
Re: Thoughts on sensors
re:I wanna build a base!!!
MT THUDDD?
[long] Wear Values and Expected Ship Lifespan
Re: Thoughts on sensors
Re: Nobility Question
Re: Nobility Question
Re Nobility
Before the Anchients
Looking for a Game
Re: Leviathan (was re: MT Ship design...)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 09:57:41 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Coyns

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> Now, going down the list here are the symbols I came up with for each coyn:
> 
> Void        Nothing engraved. A blank disc.
> Soil        A massive cliff.
> Air         A white cloud (ie. the outline of a cloud).
> Gas         A black cloud (ie. a filled-in outline of a cloud).
> Water       A foam-flecked wave.
> Fire        A flame.
> 
> (Except for the Void and the Fire I'm pretty dissatisfied with these, but
> they are the best I can come up with. Any suggestions?)

Possibly a rolling plain would depict soil better than a cliff. (Dirt as
opposed to rock)
Possibly a single droplet of water but I like the wave(s) idea as well
and the cloud types (air and gas).

Jim C

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 15:07:37 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on sensors

 
> > Incidentally, it should be _impossible_ to hit with a meson gun without a
> > rangefinding sensor.
> 
> Not impossible, simply very difficult...aim it at the target, fire, and

Agreed, but not the walking shots method. Your meson gun fires ~100
"rounds" in a turn, you guestimate the range based on apparent
size/sig, then bracket it (still hard to do).

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 14:20:59 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Thoughts on sensors

>This is probably because the LIDAR rules are _wrong_.  For the same sensor size
>and power output, a lidar has dramatically lower range than a radar -- range
>for an active sensor is generally proportional to fourth root (power output *
>sensor area * wavelength) and inversely proportional to the square root of the
>scan width.  As such, 10u IR lidar should have only 10% of the range of 10cm
>radar.  The advantage of lidar is that you can focus it on a much smaller area
>- -- if you focus as tight as you can go, the lidar has 10x the range (and is
>scanning 1/10,000 the area) and with its higher resolution is a much better
>targeting sensor.

I don't follow this at all. I don't see where the wavelength term in
(power*sensor area*wavelength) comes from - photon statistics? Seems unlikely.
In any event, in FFS2/DSR LIDARs are only used to track-already detected
targets and hence can (as you say) narrow their scan area down (to 1/100,000,000
of an equivalent radar, not 10,000) and get greater range and/or (as the
rules imply) get away with being much, much smaller. FFS2 LIDARs run in the
UV, too, which helps still more. 

Note also that for fire control - as opposed to detection - LIDARs win big
time since they have vastly higher angular resolution; since they're mostly
used as fire control devices in the DSR this was pre-folded into their 
sensitivity numbers. A radar would need extremely high signal-to-noise to get
equivlanetly accurate positions. In real life, I think radar will actually
be nearly useless for laser fire control and LIDAR will be the only
practical approach (cf the YAL-1.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 14:23:05 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Thoughts on sensors

>Of course if you have spotters on other ships, you can derive a firing
>solution  without firing a shot, all you need is accurate locations on
>your own ships. Voila! Accurate range info with passive sensors only.

I forgot to mention that - if two ships both have passive detections on a 
target and are in communication with each other they ignore the passive-FC-only
penalty. 

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 17:33:47 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Leviathan (was re: MT Ship design...)

Jim Cooper wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I'm not much into ship design, but think the idea is a good one,
especially for those using MT and those of us who like any version from
CT to T4+. I for one would like to see the CT Leviathan(all variations)
updated through to T4. I have been using Andrew A's design program to
try it in that format, but it still needs some tweeking to bring it into
line. At first I didn't think it would work when I looked at the deck
plans because there didn't seem to be enough fuel tankage alloted.
However, the basic ship as described seems to fit into a TL15 design.  
I can't see how the ship could be profitable though without major
subsidizing. 

Jim
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Leviathan isn't intended to be profitable in and of itself on normal
cargo runs - it's an Exploratory Trader. It's job is to find and test
new raw material sources and new markets where No Man Has
Gone Before (tm). The megacorp footing the bill will then send
regular trade vessels to these worlds, and these regular traders
will make lots of profits.

Another megacorp would love the trade data this baby brings back - 
all the information needed for huge profits without the overhead and
risk of sending your own Exploratory Trader. The head of security
on a Leviathan must have his hands full when she comes back to base.

Of course, Leviathan could make a profit on it's own upon occaission - 
show up at a world that's willing to fill your holds with processed
Lanthanum in exchange for the blueprints to a working fusion reactor,
for example. Trading outside the Imperium for Fun and Profit!!  :)


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 14:55:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on sensors

Bruce Alan Macintosh writes:
> I don't follow this at all. I don't see where the wavelength term in
> (power*sensor area*wavelength) comes from - photon statistics? Seems
> unlikely. In any event, in FFS2/DSR LIDARs are only used to track-already
> detected targets and hence can (as you say) narrow their scan area down (to
> 1/100,000,000 of an equivalent radar, not 10,000) and get greater range
> and/or (as the rules imply) get away with being much, much smaller. FFS2
> LIDARs run in the UV, too, which helps still more. 

Um, no -- it's scanning 1/10,000 the angle at 10 times the distance, which is a
million times the area I guess.
The wavelength term is due to energy per photon and background radiation
statistics, and is drawn from standard information on radars.

Incidentally, if all you use your AEMS for is targeting, there probably isn't
any benefit to using an AEMS over a LIDAR.  You only want radar for large-area
scans, or for penetrating atmospheric conditions which lidar won't penetrate.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 19:18:25 -0400
From: "Commander X (aka Arcanus)" <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: re:I wanna build a base!!!

> Date: 04 Jun 1998 15:46 EDT
> From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
> Subject: re:I wanna build a base!!!
> 
> Now this is an interesting topic.  What would it take to build
> a starport?  Maybe the List can flesh it out.  Here's my Cr0.02.
> 
> Downport

<Port Items and Costs Snipped, very nice BTW>

> I have NO IDEA if these numbers are even CLOSE to what they should be...
> And this doesn't include surface-orbit shuttles...
> 
> Orbital
> 
> ??  I haven't a clue!
> 

Orbital Instalations are easy, I just make a HUGE ship w/o drives, save
for control thrusters or something to keep the thing in orbit.
They are going to need a number of things. First someplace for the ships
to dock.  Just instal a ship berth(s) in the design.  Accomidations are
simple, staterooms.  Then other stuff that a ship would need, Gravity
floor plates, life support, power, etc... Even weapons if this is a
military outpost.

Planet X was design in this way, I chose a 20Million ton sphere, put in
enough ship bays to accomidate ships and construction/repair and
staterooms for the people.  You can put in other 'room' modules as you
see fit and as to what size they need to be.  Observation decks,
recration lounges, even a shopping mall!  Go nuts! Have fun with your
base.
The FF&S2 spreadsheet will work especialy well for this.

Commander X

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 11:16:06 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: MT THUDDD?

>Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 20:00:48 +0100
>From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
>Subject: MegaTraveller Ship Design
>
>Hiya,
>     There seems to be a significant population of people out there who
>enjoy using the MegaTraveller ship design system. Would anyone be
>interested having a ship design competition for MT run? (Or any volunteers
>to run it?)
>     I've always firmly believed that you can do profitable merchant ships,
>etc, etc, with it. Something like this would put it to the test...
>          Jo
>
Count me in. One of the big reasons MT designs can make a profit is the
lower fuel consumption for JDrives.

I suggest we design a TL 12 Merchant. 200-600 tons, must show a profit with
cargo space rented out at KCr1 per ton, and the folloing limits on
passengers:
	HP:	1 per Lg SR
	MP:	2 per Lg SR or 1 per Sm SR
	LP:	1 per low berth
suggest requiring J2, 1+G. No crew shortening (IE, use the formulae, not
the shortcut of 2 men on a 200 tonner). Life support and fuel at "Book
Costs" when figuring profitability.

Suggest two winners: Most Profitable; and Cheapest profitable.

Note: I am NOT volunteering to run it... but I'll be happy to suggest a
good start point.... <EFG>

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 15:57:44 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: [long] Wear Values and Expected Ship Lifespan

assumptions (general)
1)	1 roll for potential breakdown per week, rather than once per day
2)	real breakdown occurs on failure of engineer's check during
potential breakdown, as per TNE
3)	no roll during 2 weeks down time for annual maintenance
4)	values truncated by excell.
5)	Tables show years to reach the WV shown
6)	Rebuiding occurs upon reaching the line shown, and calculations for
	next WV are based upon the WV after rebuild.
7) rebuild occurs when Eff WV exceeds WV after next rebuild by 1, and before
	proceeding on course.
8) a rebuild costs 5% of new cost.
9) Decomissioning occurs when the ship can no longer be rebuilt to WV 10 or
	less, and is WV 11.

WV = Wear Value
EWV = Effective Wear Value (for calculations)
RbWV = Rebuilt Wear Value (used for calculation instead of EWV when a
rebuild is done)

my conclusions follow the data.

1st run:
local assumptions:
1) if WV is greater than 1, double maintenance time spent to reduce it by 1
			Asset of Engineer
   WV   EWV  RbWV     10    11    12    13    14    15    16    17    18    19
==============================================================================
     1     1         0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0
     2     1         4.0   4.4   5.0   5.7   6.7   8.0  10.0  13.3  20.0  40.0
     3     2     1   8.0   8.9  10.0  11.4  13.3  16.0  20.0  26.7  40.0  80.0
     2     1        12.0  13.3  15.0  17.1  20.0  24.0  30.0  40.0  60.0 120.0
     3     2        16.0  17.8  20.0  22.9  26.7  32.0  40.0  53.3  80.0 160.0
     4     3     2  18.0  20.0  22.5  25.7  30.0  36.0  45.0  60.0  90.0 180.0
     3     2        22.0  24.4  27.5  31.4  36.7  44.0  55.0  73.3 110.0 220.0
     4     3        24.0  26.7  30.0  34.3  40.0  48.0  60.0  80.0 120.0 240.0
     5     4     3  25.3  28.1  31.7  36.2  42.2  50.7  63.3  84.4 126.7 253.3
     4     3        27.3  30.4  34.2  39.0  45.6  54.7  68.3  91.1 136.7 273.3
     5     4        28.7  31.9  35.8  41.0  47.8  57.3  71.7  95.6 143.3 286.7
     6     5     4  29.7  33.0  37.1  42.4  49.4  59.3  74.2  98.9 148.3 296.7
     5     4        31.0  34.4  38.8  44.3  51.7  62.0  77.5 103.3 155.0 310.0
     6     5        32.0  35.6  40.0  45.7  53.3  64.0  80.0 106.7 160.0 320.0
     7     6     5  32.8  36.4  41.0  46.9  54.7  65.6  82.0 109.3 164.0 328.0
     6     5        33.8  37.6  42.3  48.3  56.3  67.6  84.5 112.7 169.0 338.0
     7     6        34.6  38.4  43.3  49.4  57.7  69.2  86.5 115.3 173.0 346.0
     8     7     6  35.3  39.2  44.1  50.4  58.8  70.5  88.2 117.6 176.3 352.7
     7     6        36.1  40.1  45.1  51.5  60.1  72.1  90.2 120.2 180.3 360.7
     8     7        36.7  40.8  45.9  52.5  61.2  73.5  91.8 122.4 183.7 367.3
     9     8     7  37.3  41.4  46.6  53.3  62.2  74.6  93.3 124.3 186.5 373.0
     8     7        38.0  42.2  47.5  54.2  63.3  75.9  94.9 126.6 189.9 379.7
     9     8        38.5  42.8  48.2  55.1  64.2  77.1  96.4 128.5 192.7 385.4
    10     9     8  39.0  43.4  48.8  55.8  65.1  78.1  97.6 130.1 195.2 390.4
     9     8        39.6  44.0  49.5  56.6  66.0  79.2  99.0 132.0 198.1 396.1
    10     9        40.1  44.6  50.1  57.3  66.9  80.2 100.3 133.7 200.6 401.1
    11    10     9  40.6  45.1  50.7  57.9  67.6  81.1 101.4 135.2 202.8 405.6
    10     9        41.1  45.6  51.3  58.7  68.4  82.1 102.6 136.9 205.3 410.6
    11    10    10  41.5  46.1  51.9  59.3  69.2  83.0 103.8 138.3 207.5 415.0
    11    10 DeCom  41.9  46.6  52.4  59.9  69.9  83.9 104.9 139.8 209.7 419.5

Run #2
Local Assumptions
1) if WV = 1, Single maintenance
	WV = 2, Double Maintenance
	WV => 3, Triple Maintenance
			Asset of Engineer
   WV   EWV  RbWV     10    11    12    13    14    15    16    17    18    19
==============================================================================
     1     1         0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0
     2     1         4.0   4.4   5.0   5.7   6.7   8.0  10.0  13.3  20.0  40.0
     3     1     1   8.0   8.9  10.0  11.4  13.3  16.0  20.0  26.7  40.0  80.0
     2     1        12.0  13.3  15.0  17.1  20.0  24.0  30.0  40.0  60.0 120.0
     3     1        16.0  17.8  20.0  22.9  26.7  32.0  40.0  53.3  80.0 160.0
     4     2        20.0  22.2  25.0  28.6  33.3  40.0  50.0  66.7 100.0 200.0
     5     3     2  22.0  24.4  27.5  31.4  36.7  44.0  55.0  73.3 110.0 220.0
     3     2        26.0  28.9  32.5  37.1  43.3  52.0  65.0  86.7 130.0 260.0
     5     3        28.0  31.1  35.0  40.0  46.7  56.0  70.0  93.3 140.0 280.0
     6     4     3  29.3  32.6  36.7  41.9  48.9  58.7  73.3  97.8 146.7 293.3
     4     2        33.3  37.0  41.7  47.6  55.6  66.7  83.3 111.1 166.7 333.3
     5     3        35.3  39.3  44.2  50.5  58.9  70.7  88.3 117.8 176.7 353.3
     6     4        36.7  40.7  45.8  52.4  61.1  73.3  91.7 122.2 183.3 366.7
     7     5     4  37.7  41.9  47.1  53.8  62.8  75.3  94.2 125.6 188.3 376.7
     5     3        39.7  44.1  49.6  56.7  66.1  79.3  99.2 132.2 198.3 396.7
     6     4        41.0  45.6  51.3  58.6  68.3  82.0 102.5 136.7 205.0 410.0
     7     5        42.0  46.7  52.5  60.0  70.0  84.0 105.0 140.0 210.0 420.0
     8     6     5  42.8  47.6  53.5  61.1  71.3  85.6 107.0 142.7 214.0 428.0
     6     4        44.1  49.0  55.2  63.0  73.6  88.3 110.3 147.1 220.7 441.3
     7     5        45.1  50.1  56.4  64.5  75.2  90.3 112.8 150.4 225.7 451.3
     8     6        45.9  51.0  57.4  65.6  76.6  91.9 114.8 153.1 229.7 459.3
     9     7     6  46.6  51.8  58.3  66.6  77.7  93.2 116.5 155.3 233.0 466.0
     7     5        47.6  52.9  59.5  68.0  79.3  95.2 119.0 158.7 238.0 476.0
     8     6        48.4  53.8  60.5  69.1  80.7  96.8 121.0 161.3 242.0 484.0
     9     7        49.1  54.5  61.3  70.1  81.8  98.1 122.7 163.6 245.3 490.7
    10     8     7  49.6  55.2  62.0  70.9  82.7  99.3 124.1 165.5 248.2 496.4
     8     6        50.4  56.0  63.0  72.1  84.1 100.9 126.1 168.1 252.2 504.4
     9     7        51.1  56.8  63.9  73.0  85.2 102.2 127.8 170.3 255.5 511.0
    10     8        51.7  57.4  64.6  73.8  86.1 103.4 129.2 172.3 258.4 516.8
    11     9     8  52.2  58.0  65.2  74.5  87.0 104.4 130.4 173.9 260.9 521.8
     9     7        52.8  58.7  66.1  75.5  88.1 105.7 132.1 176.1 264.2 528.4
    10     8        53.4  59.3  66.8  76.3  89.0 106.8 133.5 178.0 267.1 534.1
    11     9     9  53.9  59.9  67.4  77.0  89.9 107.8 134.8 179.7 269.6 539.1
    10     8        54.5  60.5  68.1  77.8  90.8 109.0 136.2 181.6 272.4 544.9
    11     9    10  55.0  61.1  68.7  78.6  91.6 110.0 137.5 183.3 274.9 549.9
    11     9        55.5  61.7  69.4  79.3  92.5 111.0 138.7 185.0 277.4 554.9

Run #3
Local Assumptions
1) if WV = 1, Single maintenance
	WV = 2, Double Maintenance
	WV = 3, Triple Maintenance
	WV => 4, Quadruple Maintenance

			Asset of Engineer
 WV EWV RbWV     10    11    12    13    14    15    16    17    18    19
=========================================================================
   1   1        0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0
   2   1        4.0   4.4   5.0   5.7   6.7   8.0  10.0  13.3  20.0  40.0
   3   1        8.0   8.9  10.0  11.4  13.3  16.0  20.0  26.7  40.0  80.0
   4   1       12.0  13.3  15.0  17.1  20.0  24.0  30.0  40.0  60.0 120.0
   5   2    1  16.0  17.8  20.0  22.9  26.7  32.0  40.0  53.3  80.0 160.0
   2   1       20.0  22.2  25.0  28.6  33.3  40.0  50.0  66.7 100.0 200.0
   3   1       24.0  26.7  30.0  34.3  40.0  48.0  60.0  80.0 120.0 240.0
   4   1       28.0  31.1  35.0  40.0  46.7  56.0  70.0  93.3 140.0 280.0
   5   2       32.0  35.6  40.0  45.7  53.3  64.0  80.0 106.7 160.0 320.0
   6   3    2  34.0  37.8  42.5  48.6  56.7  68.0  85.0 113.3 170.0 340.0
   3   1       38.0  42.2  47.5  54.3  63.3  76.0  95.0 126.7 190.0 380.0
   4   1       42.0  46.7  52.5  60.0  70.0  84.0 105.0 140.0 210.0 420.0
   5   2       46.0  51.1  57.5  65.7  76.7  92.0 115.0 153.3 230.0 460.0
   6   3       48.0  53.3  60.0  68.6  80.0  96.0 120.0 160.0 240.0 480.0
   7   4    3  49.3  54.8  61.7  70.5  82.2  98.7 123.3 164.4 246.7 493.3
   4   1       53.3  59.3  66.7  76.2  88.9 106.7 133.3 177.8 266.7 533.3
   5   2       57.3  63.7  71.7  81.9  95.6 114.7 143.3 191.1 286.7 573.3
   6   3       59.3  65.9  74.2  84.8  98.9 118.7 148.3 197.8 296.7 593.3
   7   4       60.7  67.4  75.8  86.7 101.1 121.3 151.7 202.2 303.3 606.7
   8   5    4  61.7  68.5  77.1  88.1 102.8 123.3 154.2 205.6 308.3 616.7
   5   2       65.7  73.0  82.1  93.8 109.4 131.3 164.2 218.9 328.3 656.7
   6   3       67.7  75.2  84.6  96.7 112.8 135.3 169.2 225.6 338.3 676.7
   7   4       69.0  76.7  86.3  98.6 115.0 138.0 172.5 230.0 345.0 690.0
   8   5       70.0  77.8  87.5 100.0 116.7 140.0 175.0 233.3 350.0 700.0
   9   6    5  70.8  78.7  88.5 101.1 118.0 141.6 177.0 236.0 354.0 708.0
   6   3       72.8  80.9  91.0 104.0 121.3 145.6 182.0 242.7 364.0 728.0
   7   4       74.1  82.4  92.7 105.9 123.6 148.3 185.3 247.1 370.7 741.3
   8   5       75.1  83.5  93.9 107.3 125.2 150.3 187.8 250.4 375.7 751.3
   9   6       75.9  84.4  94.9 108.5 126.6 151.9 189.8 253.1 379.7 759.3
  10   7    6  76.6  85.1  95.8 109.4 127.7 153.2 191.5 255.3 383.0 766.0
   7   4       77.9  86.6  97.4 111.3 129.9 155.9 194.8 259.8 389.7 779.3
   8   5       78.9  87.7  98.7 112.8 131.6 157.9 197.3 263.1 394.7 789.3
   9   6       79.7  88.6  99.7 113.9 132.9 159.5 199.3 265.8 398.7 797.3
  10   7       80.4  89.3 100.5 114.9 134.0 160.8 201.0 268.0 402.0 804.0
  11   8    7  81.0  90.0 101.2 115.7 135.0 161.9 202.4 269.9 404.9 809.7
   8   5       82.0  91.1 102.5 117.1 136.6 163.9 204.9 273.2 409.9 819.7
   9   6       82.8  92.0 103.5 118.2 138.0 165.5 206.9 275.9 413.9 827.7
  10   7       83.4  92.7 104.3 119.2 139.1 166.9 208.6 278.1 417.2 834.4
  11   8    8  84.0  93.3 105.0 120.0 140.0 168.0 210.0 280.0 420.0 840.1
   9   6       84.8  94.2 106.0 121.2 141.3 169.6 212.0 282.7 424.0 848.1
  10   7       85.5  95.0 106.8 122.1 142.5 171.0 213.7 284.9 427.4 854.8
  11   8    9  86.0  95.6 107.6 122.9 143.4 172.1 215.1 286.8 430.2 860.5
  10   7       86.7  96.3 108.4 123.9 144.5 173.4 216.8 289.0 433.6 867.1
  11   8   10  87.3  97.0 109.1 124.7 145.5 174.6 218.2 291.0 436.4 872.9
  11   8 Decom 87.9  97.6 109.8 125.5 146.4 175.7 219.6 292.9 439.3 878.6

Run #4
Local Assumptions
1) Minimal Maintenance only. IE, only the listed ammount.

			Asset of Engineer
 WV EWV RbWV     10    11    12    13    14    15    16    17    18    19
=========================================================================
   1   1        0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0
   2   2    1   4.0   4.4   5.0   5.7   6.7   8.0  10.0  13.3  20.0  40.0
   2   2        8.0   8.9  10.0  11.4  13.3  16.0  20.0  26.7  40.0  80.0
   3   3    2  10.0  11.1  12.5  14.3  16.7  20.0  25.0  33.3  50.0 100.0
   3   3       12.0  13.3  15.0  17.1  20.0  24.0  30.0  40.0  60.0 120.0
   4   4    3  13.3  14.8  16.7  19.0  22.2  26.7  33.3  44.4  66.7 133.3
   4   4       14.7  16.3  18.3  21.0  24.4  29.3  36.7  48.9  73.3 146.7
   5   5    4  15.7  17.4  19.6  22.4  26.1  31.3  39.2  52.2  78.3 156.7
   5   5       16.7  18.5  20.8  23.8  27.8  33.3  41.7  55.6  83.3 166.7
   6   6    5  17.5  19.4  21.8  25.0  29.1  34.9  43.7  58.2  87.3 174.7
   6   6       18.3  20.3  22.8  26.1  30.4  36.5  45.7  60.9  91.3 182.7
   7   7    6  18.9  21.0  23.7  27.0  31.6  37.9  47.3  63.1  94.7 189.3
   7   7       19.6  21.8  24.5  28.0  32.7  39.2  49.0  65.3  98.0 196.0
   8   8    7  20.2  22.4  25.2  28.8  33.6  40.3  50.4  67.2 100.9 201.7
   8   8       20.7  23.0  25.9  29.6  34.6  41.5  51.9  69.1 103.7 207.4
   9   9    8  21.2  23.6  26.6  30.3  35.4  42.5  53.1  70.8 106.2 212.4
   9   9       21.7  24.2  27.2  31.1  36.2  43.5  54.4  72.5 108.7 217.4
  10  10    9  22.2  24.7  27.7  31.7  37.0  44.4  55.5  74.0 110.9 221.9
  10  10       22.6  25.1  28.3  32.3  37.7  45.3  56.6  75.4 113.2 226.3
  11  11   10  23.0  25.6  28.8  32.9  38.4  46.1  57.6  76.8 115.2 230.3
  11  11 Decom 23.4  26.0  29.3  33.5  39.1  46.9  58.6  78.1 117.2 234.3

=========================================================================
=========================================================================

Conclusions based on the above data
a 40 year lifespan for a ship requires a competent engineer, and at least
double the minimum maintenance. Also, any ship can, if at WV 1, extend its
lifespan indefinitely by double maintenance. Likewise for WV 2. So, figure
that "Routine Maintenance" is double the equipment's listed maintenance.

Since there is no viability canonically unless asset of the engineer
exceeds 16, it becomes obvious that only a weekly roll can approximate
reality, at least under TNE rules AS WRITTEN with the ASSUMPTION THAT THE
MAINTENANCE NUMBER IS THE NUMBER OF HOURS NORMALLY DEDICATED as implied in
the equipment wear value rules.

Also, lifespans of ships cannot be based upon the assumption of reducing
the WV to 0 by extra maintenance hours, since that gives a 0 probability of
breakdown and wear value increase, barring damage.

Figure a well maintained vessel, with a good engineer, should be able to
get around 150 to 200 years before WV 11 is permanently reached. Most ships
should be between WV 3 and 7 at 40 years. Extremely well maintained vessels
should be able to have WV's as low as 1 or 2.
=========================================================================
=========================================================================

Just for fun, I'm going to do another run, based upon 25 jumps, assuming 7
days in jump, 2 days to the planet, and 2 days out from the planet, thus
eliminating 3 days of rolls, using the canonical 1 roll per day used. Thus
days used per year = 25 * 11, or 275 days per year.

Daily Rolls Run #1
No extra maintenance
time still in years.
as you can see, these numbers DO NOT WORK for paying off a ship.

 WV EWV RbWV     10    11    12    13    14    15    16    17    18    19
=========================================================================
   1   1        0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0
   2   2    1   0.7   0.8   0.9   1.0   1.2   1.5   1.8   2.4   3.6   7.3
   2   2        1.5   1.6   1.8   2.1   2.4   2.9   3.6   4.8   7.3  14.5
   3   3    2   1.8   2.0   2.3   2.6   3.0   3.6   4.5   6.1   9.1  18.2
   3   3        2.2   2.4   2.7   3.1   3.6   4.4   5.5   7.3  10.9  21.8
   4   4    3   2.4   2.7   3.0   3.5   4.0   4.8   6.1   8.1  12.1  24.2
   4   4        2.7   3.0   3.3   3.8   4.4   5.3   6.7   8.9  13.3  26.7
   5   5    4   2.8   3.2   3.6   4.1   4.7   5.7   7.1   9.5  14.2  28.5
   5   5        3.0   3.4   3.8   4.3   5.1   6.1   7.6  10.1  15.2  30.3
   6   6    5   3.2   3.5   4.0   4.5   5.3   6.4   7.9  10.6  15.9  31.8
   6   6        3.3   3.7   4.2   4.7   5.5   6.6   8.3  11.1  16.6  33.2
   7   7    6   3.4   3.8   4.3   4.9   5.7   6.9   8.6  11.5  17.2  34.4
   7   7        3.6   4.0   4.5   5.1   5.9   7.1   8.9  11.9  17.8  35.6
   8   8    7   3.7   4.1   4.6   5.2   6.1   7.3   9.2  12.2  18.3  36.7
   8   8        3.8   4.2   4.7   5.4   6.3   7.5   9.4  12.6  18.9  37.7
   9   9    8   3.9   4.3   4.8   5.5   6.4   7.7   9.7  12.9  19.3  38.6
   9   9        4.0   4.4   4.9   5.6   6.6   7.9   9.9  13.2  19.8  39.5
  10  10    9   4.0   4.5   5.0   5.8   6.7   8.1  10.1  13.4  20.2  40.3
  10  10        4.1   4.6   5.1   5.9   6.9   8.2  10.3  13.7  20.6  41.1
  11  11   10   4.2   4.7   5.2   6.0   7.0   8.4  10.5  14.0  20.9  41.9
  11  11Decom   4.3   4.7   5.3   6.1   7.1   8.5  10.7  14.2  21.3  42.6

Daily Run # 2
Local Assumptions
1) if WV = 1, Single maintenance
	WV = 2, Double Maintenance
	WV = 3, Triple Maintenance
	WV => 4, Quadruple Maintenance
2) Time still in years

 WV EWV RbWV     10    11    12    13    14    15    16    17    18    19
=========================================================================
   1   1        0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0
   2   1        0.7   0.8   0.9   1.0   1.2   1.5   1.8   2.4   3.6   7.3
   3   1        1.5   1.6   1.8   2.1   2.4   2.9   3.6   4.8   7.3  14.5
   4   1        2.2   2.4   2.7   3.1   3.6   4.4   5.5   7.3  10.9  21.8
   5   2    1   2.9   3.2   3.6   4.2   4.8   5.8   7.3   9.7  14.5  29.1
   2   1        3.6   4.0   4.5   5.2   6.1   7.3   9.1  12.1  18.2  36.4
   3   1        4.4   4.8   5.5   6.2   7.3   8.7  10.9  14.5  21.8  43.6
   4   1        5.1   5.7   6.4   7.3   8.5  10.2  12.7  17.0  25.5  50.9
   5   2        5.8   6.5   7.3   8.3   9.7  11.6  14.5  19.4  29.1  58.2
   6   3    2   6.2   6.9   7.7   8.8  10.3  12.4  15.5  20.6  30.9  61.8
   3   1        6.9   7.7   8.6   9.9  11.5  13.8  17.3  23.0  34.5  69.1
   4   1        7.6   8.5   9.5  10.9  12.7  15.3  19.1  25.5  38.2  76.4
   5   2        8.4   9.3  10.5  11.9  13.9  16.7  20.9  27.9  41.8  83.6
   6   3        8.7   9.7  10.9  12.5  14.5  17.5  21.8  29.1  43.6  87.3
   7   4    3   9.0  10.0  11.2  12.8  14.9  17.9  22.4  29.9  44.8  89.7
   4   1        9.7  10.8  12.1  13.9  16.2  19.4  24.2  32.3  48.5  97.0
   5   2       10.4  11.6  13.0  14.9  17.4  20.8  26.1  34.7  52.1 104.2
   6   3       10.8  12.0  13.5  15.4  18.0  21.6  27.0  36.0  53.9 107.9
   7   4       11.0  12.3  13.8  15.8  18.4  22.1  27.6  36.8  55.2 110.3
   8   5    4  11.2  12.5  14.0  16.0  18.7  22.4  28.0  37.4  56.1 112.1
   5   2       11.9  13.3  14.9  17.1  19.9  23.9  29.8  39.8  59.7 119.4
   6   3       12.3  13.7  15.4  17.6  20.5  24.6  30.8  41.0  61.5 123.0
   7   4       12.5  13.9  15.7  17.9  20.9  25.1  31.4  41.8  62.7 125.5
   8   5       12.7  14.1  15.9  18.2  21.2  25.5  31.8  42.4  63.6 127.3
   9   6    5  12.9  14.3  16.1  18.4  21.5  25.7  32.2  42.9  64.4 128.7
   6   3       13.2  14.7  16.5  18.9  22.1  26.5  33.1  44.1  66.2 132.4
   7   4       13.5  15.0  16.8  19.3  22.5  27.0  33.7  44.9  67.4 134.8
   8   5       13.7  15.2  17.1  19.5  22.8  27.3  34.2  45.5  68.3 136.6
   9   6       13.8  15.3  17.3  19.7  23.0  27.6  34.5  46.0  69.0 138.1
  10   7    6  13.9  15.5  17.4  19.9  23.2  27.9  34.8  46.4  69.6 139.3
   7   4       14.2  15.7  17.7  20.2  23.6  28.3  35.4  47.2  70.8 141.7
   8   5       14.4  15.9  17.9  20.5  23.9  28.7  35.9  47.8  71.8 143.5
   9   6       14.5  16.1  18.1  20.7  24.2  29.0  36.2  48.3  72.5 145.0
  10   7       14.6  16.2  18.3  20.9  24.4  29.2  36.5  48.7  73.1 146.2
  11   8    7  14.7  16.4  18.4  21.0  24.5  29.4  36.8  49.1  73.6 147.2
   8   5       14.9  16.6  18.6  21.3  24.8  29.8  37.3  49.7  74.5 149.0
   9   6       15.0  16.7  18.8  21.5  25.1  30.1  37.6  50.2  75.2 150.5
  10   7       15.2  16.9  19.0  21.7  25.3  30.3  37.9  50.6  75.9 151.7
  11   8    8  15.3  17.0  19.1  21.8  25.5  30.5  38.2  50.9  76.4 152.7
   9   6       15.4  17.1  19.3  22.0  25.7  30.8  38.5  51.4  77.1 154.2
  10   7       15.5  17.3  19.4  22.2  25.9  31.1  38.9  51.8  77.7 155.4
  11   8    9  15.6  17.4  19.6  22.4  26.1  31.3  39.1  52.2  78.2 156.5
  10   7       15.8  17.5  19.7  22.5  26.3  31.5  39.4  52.6  78.8 157.7
  11   8   10  15.9  17.6  19.8  22.7  26.5  31.7  39.7  52.9  79.4 158.7
  11   8 Decom 16.0  17.7  20.0  22.8  26.6  31.9  39.9  53.2  79.9 159.7

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 20:01:27 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on sensors

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on sensors


>Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
>> Incidentally, it should be _impossible_ to hit with a meson gun without a
>> rangefinding sensor.
>
>Of course if you have spotters on other ships, you can derive a firing
>solution  without firing a shot, all you need is accurate locations on
>your own ships. Voila! Accurate range info with passive sensors only.
>
>Bruce Johnson
>

Bruce that implies that they are passing info back to you which is active
transmission.  A possible solution for this is laser comms which would be of
such narrow beam width (and NO side lobes) that it might not be detected.

Thom

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 20:09:08 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Nobility Question

> Suppose we have a chap who's a Duke; the Duke of Rhylanor,
> or example.   Might he also hold the title Count of XYZ,
> Marquis of Rhylanor, Baron of Fezzelbottom Fens, Sir Foodley?
> Or holds he but one title?

The Regency Sourcebook says that Norris titles were

The First Regent
Archduke of the Domain of Deneb, surrendered
Duke of Regina, ceremonio vita
Count Aledon, ceremonio perpetua
Marquis of Regina, ceremonio perpetua
Baron Yori, ceremonio perpetua
OEG, OC, ODM

The qualifiers (ceremonio vita, etc) indicate the nobles status in the New
Era, where the Representational Reforms have largely cut out the power of the
nobility (and maybe revoked the titles completely, depending on the individual
world).

Strephon was Emperor (duh).  The Emperor was also the Archduke of the Domain
of Sylea.  (Core, Fornast, Massilia, and Delphi).  Arrival Vengeance (at
least) tells us the Strephon was also the Marquis Usdiki.  I'm sure the
Emperor probably has a few titles (maybe even doubles (duke, etc)).  

It's like Richard I was King of England, and he was the Count of Anjou too,
IIRC, and probably had a few other titles (and the fiefs that go w/ them), as
well.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 20:24:46 EDT
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Nobility Question

In a message dated 6/5/98 11:19:17 AM Central Daylight Time,
eaglesto@nortel.ca writes:

> Suppose we have a chap who's a Duke; the Duke of Rhylanor,
>  for example.   Might he also hold the title Count of XYZ,
>  Marquis of Rhylanor, Baron of Fezzelbottom Fens, Sir Foodley?
>  Or holds he but one title?
>  

Either /or. At the lower levels of nobility, it is possible that someone is a
Count, but not a Baron. For the most part, however, I assume that a holder of
a high title has several lower titles.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 16:25:07 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Re Nobility

>Date: 05 Jun 1998 10:59 EDT
>From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
>Subject: Nobility Question
>
>Suppose we have a chap who's a Duke; the Duke of Rhylanor,
>for example.   Might he also hold the title Count of XYZ,
>Marquis of Rhylanor, Baron of Fezzelbottom Fens, Sir Foodley?
>Or holds he but one title?
>
>Rob
>
Canonically, yes, he can. Norris is shown in RSB as having multiple titles.
Achduke, Duke, Count, Marquis, Baron. He is also a Knight.

IMTU, secondary titles are often devolved upon children or other heirs, or
left in abeyance (without ruler), nominally still under the holder's
control, but really under the seneschale's control.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 16:32:33 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Before the Anchients

>
>Further, there is at least one other "elder race" as well, maybe many.  (I
>just like the idea of Babylon 5's First Ones too much to leave things solely
>to the "younger" races).  Some have died, some have gone to other galaxies.
>Many ruins are mixed among the ancients (in fact ancient sites were happily
>inhabited by more than a couple).  Most have erased all evidence of their
>existence (or been erased themselves).  Some have hung around and are watching
>the younger races (and maybe even interfering now and then).  Most are gone.
>
>The few that remain in the Charted Space are way above being affected (or even
>noticed) by Virus.
>
>Of course, this is way beyond my players (at least for now) and is mostly an
>excercise in the abilities of (really) high tech levels. : )

I, too, use a race older than the Anchients. They are known only as the
Precursors. TL 25-35, and long gone. They looked, but they found little...
but spread there bio-system on many worlds... a bacterium here, an amoeboid
there... thus justifying all the carbon-cycle oxygen breathing biospheres
we find as standard in traveller... 4 billion years of divergent evolution.

They left, some 2 billion years ago, to a pocket universe. They do not come
back, and no longer are even corporeal beings...

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 20:57:27 EDT
From: JLAROSEE@aol.com
Subject: Looking for a Game

Hi-
   I'm trying to find a group of fellow adult Travellers in the Belleville,
Illinois/ St Louis, Missouri area. If you can help out, contact me at JLAROSEE
@ AOL. COM
    Thanks-
        Jay LaRosee

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 18:37:49 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Leviathan (was re: MT Ship design...)

Walter Smith wrote:
> 
> Jim Cooper wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I'm not much into ship design

> Leviathan isn't intended to be profitable in and of itself on normal
> cargo runs - it's an Exploratory Trader. It's job is to find and test
> new raw material sources and new markets where No Man Has
> Gone Before (tm). The megacorp footing the bill will then send
> regular trade vessels to these worlds, and these regular traders
> will make lots of profits.

Well, thank you for that. I can at least say I have chosen the proper
ship for my campaign this fall. Her interior design and equipment just
looked real good to me and she seemed to be the least formidable
looking  of ships to be re-entering the wilds from Regency boundaries.
But in using AA's design spreadsheet, she is coming out at about twice
the original cost (without discount) for a new ship at TL15. Does that
sound right for the 100+ year time difference. By the way, what is the
proper Imperial year corresponding to Terran 1998. Am I right that it
would be 1207.
The storyline that I intend to follow is that BT, who lost their
headquarters at Trin, re-organized on Mora to keep tabs on the other
Mega Corps. Following the limited opening of the Deneb borders, but not
wanting to submit to a one way only trip, high level BT liaison teams
went to work on RQS, RIIS, and other Regency agencies to pound out the
means by which they could pass both ways. The results were to have
'special people' from each group on board.(:  There's more but that is a
continuing story.

> 
> Another megacorp would love the trade data this baby brings back -
> all the information needed for huge profits without the overhead and
> risk of sending your own Exploratory Trader. The head of security

                                  fat chance with    ^^  (>:) on board.

> on a Leviathan must have his hands full when she comes back to base.
> 
> Of course, Leviathan could make a profit on it's own upon occassion -
> show up at a world that's willing to fill your holds with processed
> Lanthanum in exchange for the blueprints to a working fusion reactor,
> for example. Trading outside the Imperium for Fun and Profit!!  :)
> 
             That's the idea......................

It would be nice if some kind person having access to plans with the
various major variations shown, or write ups on the same, would consider
passing them on privately. I know that Bilstein Yards in Glisten built
the original in cooperation with BT but plans from our western office
there must have been transferred to, and destroyed at Trin.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #560
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, June 6 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 561



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

TNS
Re: Nobles and Insystem Piracy
Insystem Piracy (short)
Re: Nobles and Insystem Piracy 
RE: Insystem Piracy (short)
The III-Files
Re: Looking for a Game
Re: Piracy
Re: Pirates take the whole ship?
Re: Old Ships and Wear Values
RE: Query re: Licensed Traveller 15mm mini's
Astronomy/Cosmology
Re: Subs & Sandwiches (short!)
Re: Nobility Question
Re: Nobles and Insystem Piracy 
Re: Subs & Sandwiches (short!)
Gurps Traveller Conversion

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 19:30:58 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: TNS

The eyes are failing me, but we need to know.

I have been looking in the information I have but can find no reference
to the TAS or the TNS having made the transition to the Regency from 3I.
Last dated message 312-1130 was from Sestao/Reft when the Deneb navy
closed their borders and wished all well. The last message to all TNS
data nodes was unidentified. I assume that that portions of the TNS and
a lot of TAS that was in what we now call the Regency still survives in
some form or other. If so, where would the headoffices of TAS and TNS
be. If not would it be feasible to have some character(s) reorganize it
following similar guide lines?
This could be for real as well. For those running campaigns in any era,
it would be nice if a TNS type bulletin was sent through the traveller
talk line for any major happening in your campaign. Then those
travelling in the same or nearby teritories could keep their games
current. This would be especially helpful if and when a new star system
is developed that hasn't shown up elsewhere.
Just a thought.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 12:22:43
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Nobles and Insystem Piracy

>From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
>Subject: Nobility Question
>
>Suppose we have a chap who's a Duke; the Duke of Rhylanor,
>for example.   Might he also hold the title Count of XYZ,
>Marquis of Rhylanor, Baron of Fezzelbottom Fens, Sir Foodley?
>Or holds he but one title?

Could go either way in the thousand or so years of Imperial histroy. It may
also depend on the context - our Count above may be socially known as
'Bubbles', semi-formally known as Count XYZ (or just XYZ), and have the
full formal title above that no-one uses.

You may also have people like Marine Sergant Second Class Sir Joe
Mokalvski, Viscount Roushnet, who is of course known as 'Sargent Mokalvski'
becuase that is a title he earned the hard way, rather than just by being a
third son of some noble.

Calling him 'Your Excellency' or 'Vicount' is a good way to get hit.

>From: "Aldrin Bronzarm" <bronzearm@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #557
>
>Only Mega Corps and military supplies ships will have escorts worth a 
>hoot.  There will still be many out there that will be unescorted.  The 
>big trick here is, dont go after the ones that will have the escorts.
>
>

One stunt is to build a fighter of exactly the same size and shape as a
standard ship's boat.

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: Piracy vs Intra-System vessels
>

<lots of good stuff snipped>

>This tactic will work in a Traveller universe where:
>a> Ships don't have to exit jump only at the 100d limit, they
>can exit farther out if they want.
>b> Calculation of jump exit points is precise on a star system
>scale, rather than on a parsec scale.
>c> Ships maintain the same velocity on jump exit that they had
>on jump entrance.

This is all canon, isnt it ?

>
>What you will get is Piracy that is usually directed at intra-system craft
>(using jump capabilites mainly for the getaway) but attacking starships
>on the odd occaision when the opportunity presents itself. The Pirate
>will appear out of nowhere, spend an hour or two overtaking the
>nearest shuttle on the flight path, grab it and jump away while the
>local patrols are still warming up their engines.
>

Or are even incoming, but too far away to attempt combat. Universal
grapples will help as well - means you can grab ships that dont quite fit
in your shuttle bay.

>The local patrol will (once they've lost some shuttles) start taking what
>countermeasures they can - but unless they have the authority and
>resources to either send a near-continuous stream of patrol ships 
>along the best transit path, or force the supply shuttles to convoy,
>there isn't much they can do.

Forcing the supply shuttles to convoy may not be that hard - after the
first few are lost they will probably do it voluntarily. Even then, it
gives the locals a much larger volume to patrol than just the 110 diameter
limit, plus a couple of 'approved jump points'.

>
>One countermeasure is to have the supply shuttles take a less-efficient
>path - the vector differences between the best path and the second-best
>path can be radically different (path two might loop around an inner planet
>or something). This will cost time and money, so like all countermeasures
>there is an expense involved that will not be paid unless a need is seen.

Still, there is good hunting until they do so.

>
>The port authorities might also start taking a second or third hard look
>at all those independent miners who jump in-system every couple of
>weeks in their beat-up Seekers. Even if they are totally innocent, 
>they might fall under suspicion as spies for the nearby pirates.

Completely agreed. Such independant miners will have an interesting
relationship with pirates - they will both be the commonest victims, and a
common market for stolen goods.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 12:56:40
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Insystem Piracy (short)

The increased difficulty of securing the Outsystem from pirates could be
one reason that economic development in Traveller seems to be concentrated
on mainworlds - the Fleet follows trade, but without the security the Fleet
brings trade is impossible.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 23:25:04 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Nobles and Insystem Piracy 

> You may also have people like Marine Sergant Second Class Sir Joe
> Mokalvski, Viscount Roushnet, who is of course known as 'Sargent Mokalvski'
> becuase that is a title he earned the hard way, rather than just by being a
> third son of some noble.
> 
> Calling him 'Your Excellency' or 'Vicount' is a good way to get hit.

Depending on who his parents are, I kinda doubt he'd be Viscount Roushnet.  
The heavier titles would pass on to the oldest kid in the 3I.  Most likely, 
he'd just be a knight, or if he was in line for the title, he'd most likely be 
an officer.  He wouldn't actually inherit the title until Mom/Dad kick off.

> >c> Ships maintain the same velocity on jump exit that they had
> >on jump entrance.
> 
> This is all canon, isnt it ?

FWIR, yeah, all ships retain velocity & vector (referenced to galactic center) 
on exit.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 11:31:09 +0800 (WST)
From: skribe <skribe@amber.com.au>
Subject: RE: Insystem Piracy (short)

On 06-Jun-98 Ian or Katts wrote:
> The increased difficulty of securing the Outsystem from pirates could be
> one reason that economic development in Traveller seems to be concentrated
> on mainworlds - the Fleet follows trade, but without the security the Fleet
> brings trade is impossible.

Not impossible, just high risk.  It could also explain why merchant ships are
allowed to carry military-grade weapons.  In order to encourage the creation
and development of resources (that might not be located on the mainworld) the
Imperium could allow weapons to be carried so that traders can run the
gauntlet when trading in the outer systems.  Otherwise, there seems little
point in letting any merchant that can afford the weapon and required
powerplant/cargospace to have weapons.  Its just asking for trouble.  Why
would they need them if you never leave the heavily patrolled 100 diametre
regions of the respective mainworlds?
- ---
skribe <skribe@amber.com.au>

Toilet Toup'_ee, n.:
        Any shag carpet that causes the lid to become top-heavy, thus
creating endless annoyance to male users.
                -- Rich Hall, "Sniglets"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 00:29:40 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: The III-Files

Date: 065-1105 Imp 11:03:85:77 -0260.85 BoatCorr
From: [DECODE PASSFILE: ************]
	fmuldoon@hivers.templars.zho.clone.conspire.boat
To: dsculden37589932501875839215551.25@IOL.boat
Subject: Pirates

Sculden, 

I haven't got much time to get this all down, I think they're on to 
me so I'm having to get my thoughts together as I move. I only
hope that I can find a boat drop out here in the sticks so I can
download this file. 

You know that during my entire career of working on the III-Files
for the OCC I have never given up my hope of solving the 
problem of piracy in the Imperium. Where do they come from?
Where do they go? How do they support themselves in an
environment where the ships they use and the ships they rob
are often worth many times the cargos? Why, in an Empire
with so many Naval ships with nothing better to do than patrol,
is it still so common to run into them? If they--

[BREAK]

Sorry, had to duck out there for a little bit. They're closer on my
tail than I had thought. Anyway. I know that conventional wisdom
would have you believe that alien forces from outside our
borders are working at unknown purposes and are seizing
targets of opportunity as well as orchestrating paranoia and
fear, and that this accounts for the majority of pirate attacks,
with the desperate actions of a few sociopaths making up the
tiny percentage left over. This is what they want us to believe,
Sculden, the Truth is far more sinister and frightening. It's a
widely held belief that only state-sponsored raiding could 
support piracy in the numbers that it has historically existed
at. This is only half of the Truth, Sculden; we have been 
looking at the wrong State all this time -- it's our own Empire
doing this to us! Think back to the beginnings of the 3rd
Imperium and the way that the Zhunastu used Fear, Loathing,
and Doubt to conquer and then control the pocket empires 
and independent planets on the borders of Imperial Space
during the Great Expansion. It's always been a mystery why
Zhunastu Enterprises went under when they had such a 
successful and profitable run using their techniques to 
acchieve a near monopoly on the worlds brought into the
3I. I've solved the mystery, Sculden, I see it all too clearly
now -- they never went under, they went underground! 
Ponder this: why would the core worlds and mains feel 
that they still needed the Imperial Navy skulking about, 
poking it's nose into their business if the enemies of the
Empire were a year's travel away? Why would they feel 
that they should still submit to high taxation their safe lanes
of travel to support a fleet protecting the borders sectors
away? The Zhunastu are still with us, Sculden, they have
become a secret force working at the Empire's behest to
harass the merchants and shippers of the core worlds; not
enough to come anywhere close to being a true threat to
trade, but just enough to cause Fear, Loathing, and Doubt
in the minds of the planetary governors, the citizens, and
the merchants to cause them to not only tolerate the 
presence of the Imperial Navy poking around, but to 
demand that they be there to "protect their trade fleets."
How else can piracy survive when so many pirates take
megacredits of damage to their ships? When so few 
cargos are actually taken? When so

[BREAK]

Sculden, I'm on the move again. I'm dropping this off in
the boat drop here and then setting off for the high port 
as fast as this air raft will take me. I think I saw the Anagathics
Man watching me from across the slideway a few minutes
ago. I'll contact you again when I can.

- -Muldoon


**********************************************************
Paul Darius Owensby (pauld@athens.net) UIN: 7353691
ValuJump Lines:"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/
Home of ValuJump Lines, Pan-Imperia Shipyards, and Beginnings for DOS.
IMTU tc+(++) ?tm ?tn t4+ tg>+ ?tt to ru+(-) ge+(--) 3i+ -jt+ au+@ st+ ls@
	kk+ hi++ as+ va- dr+ so zh vi da sy- say++ dol++ ith-- mer ?lu ?su ?ge
	jd pi+@ he+ dt ps(+)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 22:31:22 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Looking for a Game

At 08:57 PM 6/5/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Hi-
>   I'm trying to find a group of fellow adult Travellers in the Belleville,
>Illinois/ St Louis, Missouri area. If you can help out, contact me at 

Looking for fellow travellers?  Listen bud, we don't aprreciate this commie
stuff.

:)

It's late and I'm tired.
- --


*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*
)   Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net     (
(       http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html        )
)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(
( A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than    )
) any invention in human history--with the possible     (
( exceptions of handguns and tequila.                   )
)      Mitch Ratcliffe, Technology Review, April 1992   (
*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 16:36:56
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Piracy

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: Piracy
>
>Ian Whitchurch wrote:

>Hmmm. Why not link these up to the doors, preventing anyone opening the
>hatch ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>Sure. Now jump the captured ship to your base with the same cutting
>laser you used to get through the doors. Getting through a door is
>easy - getting through TL12+ computer security is not something
>as vulnerable to quick applications of brute force.
>

Going through the bulkheads will cost our pirate time, which they probably
wont have, assuming any forces at all in the system.

And I still think shooting captains who disable the computer system is a
viable tactic for pirates.


>Ian again:

>They'll do it with nothing bigger than a turret-mount beam laser or
>civilian-grade missile rack then. The Navy has less patience for
>private military-grade flotillas than it does for Pirates - in fact, it
>sees personal "defense forces" as more of a threat to the Imperium
>than any pirate. 

First of all, 250 MJ civilian lasers and kinetic kill or non-det laser
missiles do nasty things to smallish ships without 10cm plus of superdense.

Secondly, I think you underestimate the political pressure that the trade
and finance community will bring to bear on the appropriate local authorities.

Thirdly, personal defense forces include planetary and subsector navies,
which are usually seen as being outside the non-wartime IN chain of command.

>
>"But we need those escort craft to protect our shipping!"
>"The Navy will protect your shipping. Control of spacelanes is
>our responsibility - _not_ yours."
>"But Pinata system hasn't seen a Navy patrol flotilla in six months!"
>"Our resources are allocated efficiently. Would you like to fill out
>a complaint form?"
>

"Would five megacredits change your mind ?"

>Ian again:
>These "authorities" have their orders from a bureacracy a year's time
>away, that sees "request for more potent weapons" as "please help
>us arm ourselves for the coming rebellion of your frontier provinces".
>With the exception of the occaisional maverick local commander,
>the Navy's decisions are based on policies with a much bigger picture
>than a few tramp freighters lost to pirates in a backwater subsector.
>

This is balanced by Naval Intelligence realising the risk that a network of
pirate bases represent - what happens when an Enemy Power starts using
these to gather intelligence ?

This might result in some interesting bureaucratic warfare - IN
Intelligence quietly orginising 'private' anti-piracy expiditions against
the official policy. After all, if the bureaucracy issuing the orders is a
year away, it will take them at least a year to find out, and at least a
year to countermand it. Then we get to query the countermand order, then we
get to fire some 'rogue subordinate' etc etc .

>Megacorps might force a policy change. The 10kdtn+ ships megacorps
>use would barely notice a pirate attack, so pirates leave them alone. 
>To those in power (Navy fleets, megacorps, high-pop worlds) the
>Piracy threat is something out of adventure holovids, something that
>happens to other people - and the people in power make lots of decisions
>about things like what an honest trader is allowed to arm his ship with.
>

This is going to be more pronounced with stealing non-jump ships in the
outsystem.

>Ian again:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I was referring to how you can watch the ship you captured enter jump,
>but (for a week, anyway) you can't see where it's going - or even if it
>went anywhere at all. The captured navigator pops the clutch a second
>early or late, the ship enters jumpspace for a week and goes nowhere - 
>he figures that he has a better chance of survival, even with your thugs 
>on board, if he's in a civilized system with no jump fuel aboard.

His chances of survival under these circumstances are actually about nil.
He'll be the first one shot when the captured ship arrives in the wrong place.

If you use a system of cut-out points (jump capture to point x, stick
navigator in low berth, jump ship to base y while the co-operating crew
members are taken to point z and released), then you can maintain the
security of your base with low extra expenses. 

>
>Ian again:

>What, throw away a 14MCr lifeboat? Cap'n, we can file the serial numbers
>off it and toss it in the capture bay, no hacking through a scrambled
>nav computer required...
>
>Doable, though - assuming the pirates can overcome all the other
>difficulties and make off with the ship, such a thing would be a good
>idea - the Captain, in fear for his life and the lives of his crew, may have
>already taken the lifeboat and abandoned ship, hoping the pirates are
>more interested in his vessel than they are in chasing him. A Sub Liner
>(Lifeboat, passengers who can afford really big lawsuits aboard) might
>especially see this happen - after all, it isn't like the Captain's
abandoning
>a ship he owns or anything.

Fair enough. Saves you from having to get rid of the crew later.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 23:52:57 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Pirates take the whole ship?

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Pirates take the whole ship? (Re: Piracy)
...
>>  So? "Make and model and state of wear" is only relevant if I'm
>>face to face with the authorities, in which case I'm screwed anyway.
>
>You can be spotted using your vac suit on any airless world.  It
>is also fairly easy to simply ask to see someone's Vac suit.  But,
>before we beat the idea of vac suits as a give away to death and
>you run out with various disguising techniques, this was only one

  Forget disguising techniques, if you're a hardy career pirate then
how are the authorities seeing your vacc suit, or dropping by your
ship/base to ask to see your wardrobe?

>example that I came up with off the top of my head.  They
>will also beable to report the weapons they are carrying,  the
>race of the crew.  The general size of the people.  Now there will
>be things you can do to mitigate it, but person contact is going to
>give away clues.  I'm not saying it will be avoided at all costs,
>but it will be a factor.

  Let's concede all that. Isn't it safe to say that the authorities are
going to find detailed EMS signatures for a ship (of which how many exist
in said class?) compared to some _very_ unreliable eyewitness accounts of
gun-toting apes, of which several hundred _billion_ largely undifferentiated
units populate each sector of the Imperium?

  To use one of those horrible SE Asian waters analogies, do you really think
that "ship X was held up by ten short brown men with guns and knives, using a
boat" is really more helpful to anti-piracy efforts than "pirates used Y class
vessel (eliminate ones which movement records can account for) with the
following identifying characteristics (visual/structural/acoustic in RL vs
EMS in OTU)"?

>>Why not send over cannon-fodder rather than the skilled principals in
>>the operation?
>
>Because if they get caught the rat on you?

  Having the principals captured/killed themselves is better?

...
>Well, if they don't have a launch, etc. then you either have to take
>your chances on what they obeserve not being enough or you have to
>kill them.

  Frankly, between taking the ship and _not_ killing awkward prisoners,
I'd probably take the ship, and I'll guess that most pirates would too.

...
>>  Gee, I wonder how badly screwed the computer/ship/owner are with up
>>to a few MCr in damages there. Even worse, what if there's a repeater
>>downloading sensor data to a recorder in engineering, or the captains
>>cabin, or hardwired into the back of the cookie cupboard?
>
>Well, first of all, computers are only a few MCr in CT, in MT a
>merchant would have a computer that cost in the hundreds of thousand

  Good point. I refer to HG as a CT baseline, but prefer MT or Striker.

>of credits.  Also, you are assuming that the only way to destroy
>the data in it is to destroy the computer.  You probably just take
>the memory modules.  As to a repeater, they won't work if they

  What if the imminent victims remove a copy and throw it in the linen closet?

>get spotted and not everyone will have them (if piracy is uncommon)
>for the same reason that most people don't have devices to stop
>carjackings (though in Traveller there is less incentive because,
>unlike the carjacking devices, the repeater won't stop them

  Most carjacking devices aren't installed on hundred-million dollar
panel trucks. Presumably pirates searching a ship have the same time
requirements as inspectors do.

>taking your ship, it will only give you a bit of satisfaction
>to know they have a better chance of getting caught).  In any
>case, data from a computer doesn't make the value of eye witness
>info useless, it only adds to it.

  I'm going to assume that for ID'ing a ship that camera/sensor recordings
are vastly more useful than sapients seeing the ship or boarders. Does that
sound reasonable?

>>  I wonder of the authorities (or insurance companies) provide rewards
>>for material evidence leading to the termination of a pirate operation.
>
>It would be a lot less than if you took the entire ship.

  The authorities may base rewards on the _pirates_ ship.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 23:54:51 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Old Ships and Wear Values

(hope this isn't a repeat - my ISP reported a failure)

>From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
>Subject: Old Ships and Wear Values
...
>By the way: is there some kind of 'curing' process that goes on
>with the construction of a ship hull?  Is there massive red
>tape that can never be avoided in building a ship?  What takes
>it so long?  Not that I mind: I rather think it should be that
>way.  However, some theories might be nice as to WHY?

  Historically, I believe it's mostly installing and checking all the
systems inside the hull. You can send a cruiser hull down the slipway
in pretty short order, but then you have to install a working ship
inside it :)

  No idea if that's it in OTU, but TCS sort of implies it.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 23:55:35 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: RE: Query re: Licensed Traveller 15mm mini's

In case anyone was wondering about those old 15mm Trav figs from Citadel;

  RAFM Canada, who did the NorAm licensed production back in the `80's,
doesn't even have records anymore, AFAIK.

  GW-USA claims to know nothing about the current production (?) figures
from Germany, which appear to be Citadel product produced under a Traveller
license operated by GDW-USA. Go figure. 

  I've been unable to locate an e-mail address for GW-UK archive service
(which I believe would handle this). Does anyone know of a contact e-mail
or fax for them (I have postal).

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 00:42:08 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Astronomy/Cosmology

 Apparently (local paper feed from LA Times) physicists at Princeton
have concluded (proven?) that neutrino's have mass. Thus, WIMP's win?

  I don't recall too much of the implications of this, asides from the
obvious location of some portion of otherwise unaccounted for mass.


  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 01:28:45 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Subs & Sandwiches (short!)

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Subs & Sandwiches (short!)
...
>I actually, I had meant the above to say how I didn't see how
>being expected would stop piracy (getting back to an earlier 
>point) since the effect at your destination of piracy is that 
>you either simply don't show up or you do show up but you
>have been robbed.

  Yeah, the two have similar but different problems. I think that
Mr. Smiths exploration of preying on intrasystem (non-Jump?) traffic
will help a lot with figuring out possibilities for both limited
specialty piracy and "casuals" (one-shot opportunists). I didn't see
any problems with it, although I'd prefer that any that might exist
do get pointed out.

  OC, I think _hijacking_ a shuttle en route to the mainworld may not
be a terribly bright idea :)

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 21:39:24 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Nobility Question

At 08:09 PM 05/06/98 EDT, Gary wrote:

>It's like Richard I was King of England, and he was the Count of Anjou too,
>IIRC, and probably had a few other titles (and the fiefs that go w/ them), as
>well.

Like Duke of Normandy and Duke of Aquitane. The English Kings up until the
Hundred Years War quite often ruled more of France than the King of France,
though techincally as his vassal.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 21:44:08 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Nobles and Insystem Piracy 

At 11:25 PM 05/06/98 -0400, Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
>> You may also have people like Marine Sergant Second Class Sir Joe
>> Mokalvski, Viscount Roushnet, who is of course known as 'Sargent Mokalvski'
>> becuase that is a title he earned the hard way, rather than just by being a
>> third son of some noble.
>> 
>> Calling him 'Your Excellency' or 'Vicount' is a good way to get hit.
>
>Depending on who his parents are, I kinda doubt he'd be Viscount Roushnet.  
>The heavier titles would pass on to the oldest kid in the 3I.  Most likely, 
>he'd just be a knight, or if he was in line for the title, he'd most
likely be 
>an officer.  He wouldn't actually inherit the title until Mom/Dad kick off.

I read somewhere that chiildren in medieval (or later aristocratic) Europe
used to end up with ranks about two steps below their parents, at least
until the parnets died and their full titles past down.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 21:49:42 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Subs & Sandwiches (short!)

At 01:28 AM 06/06/98 -0700, Steven Hudson wrote:

>  Yeah, the two have similar but different problems. I think that
>Mr. Smiths exploration of preying on intrasystem (non-Jump?) traffic
>will help a lot with figuring out possibilities for both limited
>specialty piracy and "casuals" (one-shot opportunists). I didn't see
>any problems with it, although I'd prefer that any that might exist
>do get pointed out.

In TNE you can get a TL-11 laser pack for the modular cutter. It doesn't
have on board sensors, but has its own power. If the cutter played it cool
until the pirate was alongside the pirate is going to get rather hurt. IMO
this could act as a significant deterent, because any cutter could be the
one carrying the pack.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 09:00:11 +0000
From: "Pearson Publishing" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Gurps Traveller Conversion

The New Gurps:Traveller will have a lenghty  chapter on this.  Also, 
check out Jonas' excellent site at:  http://www.baldakinen.umea.se/~baldjkn/Rpg/Gurps/Traveller/index.shtml
and the Gurps Imperium at:  http://members.tripod.com/~TheShipyard/Imperium.htm
		

> Has anyone done a Traveller to Gurps conversion spreadsheet or
> program?
> 
> If so where is it?
>


 -- James Pearson
"The purpose of a referee is to present obstacles 
for players to overcome as the go about seeking 
their goals ... This is a very subtle distinction ..."

The Traveller Book, p. 12

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #561
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, June 7 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 562



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Letter of Marque - Payment Methods
Subsidary (Subs & Sandwiches)
Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)
Re: Pirates take the whole ship?
[T98#559] Re: Nobility Question
Freelance Traveller: Call for Articles
Re: MegaTraveller Ship Design
Re: TNS
Muldoon and Sculden
Pirates
Re: TNS
Re: MegaTraveller Ship Design
Re: Subs & Sandwiches (short!)
Re: Piracy
re: Piracy
Intra-system piracy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 11:00:55 -0400
From: Andy Slack <AndySlack@compuserve.com>
Subject: Letter of Marque - Payment Methods

Message text written by Volker:
>Hi
I am just mailing to tell you that my 19 $ are in the mail, so be sure to
reserve a singed copy
for me.
 Volker<

Oh, wow - no-one told me I could have it ready toasted! I was gonna cook it
myself...
Andy :))

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Jun 98 17:33 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Subsidary (Subs & Sandwiches)

Moin Rupert Boleyn,

> In TNE you can get a TL-11 laser pack for the modular cutter. It doesn't
> have on board sensors, but has its own power. If the cutter played it cool
> until the pirate was alongside the pirate is going to get rather hurt. IMO
> this could act as a significant deterent, because any cutter could be the
> one carrying the pack.

	canon states that subsidaries are part of the reserve fleet, 
	and subject to mobilisation in terms of war. For this reason
	any subsidary trader has to be designed to for armament refit.
	IMTU nobles often pay for the armament, just to show their
	status. In the early 3I nobles also gave a letter of marque
	to use the e.g. against Vargr and Lancian vessels. This was
	of course not only noble, but a neccessarity.

	To Cite myself from the last THUDDD:

	" Reconfiguration with a AEMS, fire control or even a jammer are
	always possible.  Power supply and data links are already prepared. "

	" On a first look a cargo bay can be nothing special, if you
	assume this, we could prove you wrong. As told the Kebra Nagast
	is primary a Liner, but of course its secondary subject to fleet
	mobilization. The cargo bay has a length of 40 meter and is
	divided into two parts. Those are arranged together with the
	empty turret socket that a 3,6m*40m particle accelerator fits
	in. The backward part would than contain a second power plant, a
	missile bay and fire control bridge together with sensors and
	jammer. As the complete backward bay is a multi mission pod, the
	reconfiguration is a matter of 30 minutes on any shipyard where
	graph technology is available. This would reduce the cargo
	capacity to 148 dt. Two small hangars able to host a ships boat,
	a gig or a fighter, are arranged with the forward cargo bay so
	that its possible to store 8 additional fighters in two decks,
	if you want to be able to maintain and repair them, and still
	have some room for cargo. "

	" Kebra Nagast is the Indian Book of Death, and as Dover Gabe
	will run the supplies with high armament, and less cargo, we are
	waiting for the first Vargr pirate trying to open it. Once the
	ship has its name of being a difficult prey, Dover Gabe will mix
	high armed and high cargo ships at random. We would advise the
	IMTD to finance additional vessels, as this would make the Vland
	area more secure. "

	Having two ships looking identical, one with a 1080Mj PA,
	two fast missile autolaunchers, AEMS/Jammer, 3 FireControls,
	and the other just a fat merchant. Would make living as a
	pirate much more interesting - Of course the Krebra Nagast
	not only makes a good fleet transport, it would also be
	a good pirate with its ability to host fighters. IMTU "real"
	pirates dont operate from a ship, they use boat's, pocket
	rockets (graphbikes) and even thruster packs. Its much to
	expensive to risk a ship. The merchant could be armed !

	Back to TNE - The class of ship is part of the Silkku
	(archipelago term for peoples army) build on Usdiki.
- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 17:38:34 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)

At 12:02 am 6/1/98 -0700, you wrote:
>  AFAIK, one-write codes are effectively unbreakable, and of
>course non-reusable.

	Unbreakable analytically. Which just makes the person needing to
compromise it try something else ... like managing to copy it: compromise
the person controlling one half of it, drug him/her, seduce him/her, beat
the tar out of him/her, sneak a microbot with a camera in, psionically
snoop, wiretap the keyboard, insert a trojan horse into the host ... think
of the adventure possibilities!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 11:51:55 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Pirates take the whole ship?

Fri, 05 Jun 1998 23:52:57 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>  Forget disguising techniques, if you're a hardy career pirate then
>how are the authorities seeing your vacc suit, or dropping by your
>ship/base to ask to see your wardrobe?

As I have stated before, I really don't think pirates are going
to be operating from bases.  It just won't take that long
for the Imperium to notice the activity is all in one area
and track them down.  They are going to be, IMO, passing as
legit traffic the rest of the tim.

>  Let's concede all that. Isn't it safe to say that the authorities are
>going to find detailed EMS signatures for a ship (of which how many exist
>in said class?) compared to some _very_ unreliable eyewitness accounts of
>gun-toting apes, of which several hundred _billion_ largely undifferentiated
>units populate each sector of the Imperium?

Well, you have simply assumed that the Imerium has detailed EMS
signatures (from where I don't know) and that they will only
ever get vague descriptions of "gun-toting apes".

>>>Why not send over cannon-fodder rather than the skilled principals in
>>>the operation?
>>
>>Because if they get caught the rat on you?
>
>  Having the principals captured/killed themselves is better?

Well, if you don't take the crew then maybe nobody has to ge
captured or killed.

>  Frankly, between taking the ship and _not_ killing awkward prisoners,
>I'd probably take the ship, and I'll guess that most pirates would too.

And I'll disagree.

>  What if the imminent victims remove a copy and throw it in the linen closet?

And now we are into thowing back and forth plans and counter plans.
See my other post on the subject.  I could point out that the
pirates then demand the missing memory module or they will kill
the crew after all.  And then you come up with another plan
to make sure the pirates have to take the whole ship, etc.
It won't really prove which is more likely, just who was better
at dreaming up schemes.

To do this right, I should be pointing out that is it quite possible
that the crew could disable the drive and it simply might not
be possible to take the ship.

>>get spotted and not everyone will have them (if piracy is uncommon)
>>for the same reason that most people don't have devices to stop
>>carjackings (though in Traveller there is less incentive because,
>>unlike the carjacking devices, the repeater won't stop them

>  Most carjacking devices aren't installed on hundred-million dollar
>panel trucks.

Sure, but the cost of the these devices is also trivial.  The
fact is that their value is nothing compared to a car.  If you
think that being cheap compared to what you are guarding is
sufficient reason to assume it exists, then you have to ask
why every car doesn't have such a system.

OTOH, if you assume that it also depends on the odds that it will
be needed (which matches better with realitiy), then it is
quite reasonable that a ship isn't going to have repeaters and
dozens of other things to catch pirates.  (more so because,
again, the value to the ship owner of simply getting the pirate
caught later one is much less than a preventative measure.)

>Presumably pirates searching a ship have the same time
>requirements as inspectors do.

Except the know where to start looking, at the computer.

>  I'm going to assume that for ID'ing a ship that camera/sensor recordings
>are vastly more useful than sapients seeing the ship or boarders. Does that
>sound reasonable?

No.  It sounds like you are assuming your arguements are right.

>>It would be a lot less than if you took the entire ship.
>
>  The authorities may base rewards on the _pirates_ ship.

And they may base it on the fact that if you take the ship
then you have the value of _two_ ships and that is further
upped by the fact that murder was involved.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 19:33:51 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T98#559] Re: Nobility Question

On Fri, 5 Jun 1998 16:55:53 -0400, dberry@hooked.net wrote:

>At 10:59 AM 6/5/98 EDT, you wrote:
>>Suppose we have a chap who's a Duke; the Duke of Rhylanor,
>>for example.   Might he also hold the title Count of XYZ,
>>Marquis of Rhylanor, Baron of Fezzelbottom Fens, Sir Foodley?
>>Or holds he but one title?

>He could hold several titles.. As I recall, Duke (later Archduke) Norris
>was also Baron Yori.

Norris Aella Aledon, Archduke of Deneb, Duke of Regina, Count
Aledon, Baron Yori.  I'm not sure if there was a Marquisate in
there anywhere.

>This provides a nice social out for the high-ranking.  They can go to a
>party and be announced at a lesser rank, bringing himseld to the level of
>the other people in the room.

In Arrival Vengeance, when the protagonists get to Usdiki, in
"Strephon's Imperium", the man that places Avery into their
custody is clearly the Emperor, but throughout their visit, the
protagonists are expected to address him as befits the Marquis of
Usdiki, which is how they are presented to him.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 19:34:16 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Freelance Traveller: Call for Articles

Do you use a computer, palmtop, or PDA (Newton, Sharp Wizard,
PalmPilot, etc.) as a play aid for Traveller?  As a preparation
tool?  What software do you use, and how?  Where did you get that
software?  What platform does it run on, and what requirements
are there for it?  What version (or versions) of Traveller does
it support?  What do you think of it?  What would you change?
Where can others get it?

Freelance Traveller wishes to open up a new section with this
information, so that others can get ideas on how the computer can
be used as a tool for Traveller.  This is all in keeping with our
mission to be a _resource_ for Traveller, rather than just a
"'zine".

This will be a new type of article for us - rather than just a
straight text article, written by one author, with a fixed
writing style, like what we've published in the past, this
article will be more like a guestbook or feedback page - each
response will have its own section, in the respondent's own words
(Punctuation and spelling will be corrected - grammar will not,
unless requested), and there will be a form for readers to submit
their own ideas on the topic.  (All submissions will be reviewed
for inappropriate language or subject matter, and for spelling/
punctuation correction, prior to appearing in Freelance
Traveller.)

Please, folks, I _do_ want to hear from you on this!

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
freetrav@hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 21:40:41 +0000
From: "Jens.Maskus" <Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Subject: Re: MegaTraveller Ship Design

I'm still using MTDesign system with some modifications!

Jens


On Thu, 4 Jun 1998 20:00:48 +0100, Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com wrote:

>Hiya,
>     There seems to be a significant population of people out there who
>enjoy using the MegaTraveller ship design system. Would anyone be
>interested having a ship design competition for MT run? (Or any volunteers
>to run it?)
>     I've always firmly believed that you can do profitable merchant ships,
>etc, etc, with it. Something like this would put it to the test...
>          Jo
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 15:44:23 -0700
From: warlock@imagin.net
Subject: Re: TNS

Jim Cooper wrote:
> 
> The eyes are failing me, but we need to know.
> 
> I have been looking in the information I have but can find no reference
> to the TAS or the TNS having made the transition to the Regency from 3I.

You can stop looking, Jim. There wasn't one.

> Last dated message 312-1130 was from Sestao/Reft when the Deneb navy
> closed their borders and wished all well. The last message to all TNS
> data nodes was unidentified. I assume that that portions of the TNS and
> a lot of TAS that was in what we now call the Regency still survives in
> some form or other. If so, where would the headoffices of TAS and TNS
> be. If not would it be feasible to have some character(s) reorganize it
> following similar guide lines?

Challenge #69 was the issue in which the Spinward Marches "filled the
moat and manned the walls", so to speak. Challenge #70's TNS was nothing
but garbage to simulate the effects of Virus. Challenge #71's TNS was
mainly garbage but ended with some characters finally breaking through
the garbage and bringing up the lights of a city (nicely done, I 
thought).

Challenge #72 is the first issue to list the Coalition Information
Network.

I'd say there would be a sector office at each sector capital,
subsector offices at each subsector capital, and field offices at
most of the worlds with Class A/B starports and large populations.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 18:39:33 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Muldoon and Sculden

(with apologies to all involved<g>)

Long considered as more eccentric members of the Office of 
Calendar Compliance, Muldoon and Sculden have been recog-
nized by their superiors as having that particular combination of
talent and chemistry needed to make a productive and efficient
team. Their penchant for solving the bizarre and unsolvable 
quickly caught the attention of the directors of The Ephemeris,
the covert intelligence gathering branch of the OCC, and they
were quickly brought into the ranks. 

Francis "The Fox" Muldoon 7A9CC9

Female Human, Age 33, Agent 3rd year of 3rd term, Rank E5
BS in Psionicology, Honors
Investigation 3, Computer 2, Fast Talk 2, Gun Cbt(Pistol) 2,
Perception 2, Research 2, Streetwise 2, Grav Craft 1, Ground
Craft 1, Jack O T 1, Language(Newt) 1, Law 1, Psionicology 1,
Psychology 1, Stealth 1, Vacc Suit 1

Muldoon, known as "The Fox" to her friends, joined up as an
agent of the OCC straight out of college. Always interested in
the paranormal and the unexplained (ever since her pet cat
Sammy disappeared during a Vargr raid on her homeworld),
she had not been in the Office long before being approached
by members of The Ephemeris. It was there that she discovered
the existence of the III-Files, a long neglected collection of
data crystals detailling unsolved and paranormal occurances
occurring in the 3I; it is due to her reputation for getting her
"normal" assignments done in record time that she is allowed
to spend her spare time working on them. Known as some-
thing of a loose cannon, she was assigned Sculden as a 
partner to try to overcome some of her more outlandish ten-
dencies. She has long believed that she has latent psionic
powers but has never been able to contact a reputable 
institute for long enough to find out for sure. Even if she does
not, her quick mind, incredible charisma, and unbelievable 
luck fills in to give much the same effect.

"Danny" Sculden 657CFA

Male Newt, Age 32, Scholar 3rd year of 2nd term
BS in Forensics, Honors
MD, Honors
Medical 4, Administration 3, Research 3, Computer 2, 
Forensics 2, Ground Craft 2, Language(Ganglic)2, Law 2,
Biology 1, Chemistry 1, Diplomacy 1, Grav Craft 1, Gun
Cbt(Pistol) 1, Instruction 1, Investigation 1, Perception 1,
Psychology 1 

Danny Sculden's actual name is Kwabalande-bapdandandan/
Sk-ldenwapes-enamane. Shortened for dealing with Imperials,
his Office name is Sk-lden or Sculden. His close friends call
him Danny after the -dan repetition of his first name part. 
Working as a forensic investigator for the Office, he was 
assigned to Muldoon as a partner because of a) he is un-
usually adventurous and inquisitive for a Newt, and b) this
still leaves him so conservative that he is seen as a moderating
influence over The Fox's more outlandish activities. While 
often as exacerbated by Muldoon's antics as his superiors
in The Ephemeris, Danny must admit that The Fox has an in-
credibly amount of luck in cutting straight to the chase, he
just hopes that he is not around when her luck runs out. 
Although very outgoing and curious for a Newt, Sculden
feels that Muldoon is often "Pawa-bawabawaba-kwenana-
a-emanbapbap" or "hanging by a leaf of the tiniest branch
of the great tree" as far as her theories and explanations are
concerned, even after Muldoon has been proven correct 
almost every time.

The Anagathics Man ??????

Male Human, Age Unknown (appears late 50s)

The sometimes-nemesis of Sculden and Muldoon, the 
Anagathics Man is a mystery even The Fox has not been 
able to crack yet. Often seen fleetingly by the duo, he seems
to have taken a curious interest in the path of their career. 
Remarkably, he or someone quite like him has been seen
or (vary rarely) recorded at the scene of many of the 3I's
more momentous events over the last few centuries. Muldoon
has a theory that he may in fact have been one of the original
high ranking officials of the Zhunastu and a close associate of
Cleon I, though this theory is not believed by anyone else.

**********************************************************
Paul Darius Owensby (pauld@athens.net) UIN: 7353691
ValuJump Lines:"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/
Home of ValuJump Lines, Pan-Imperia Shipyards, and Beginnings for DOS.
IMTU tc+(++) ?tm ?tn t4+ tg>+ ?tt to ru+(-) ge+(--) 3i+ -jt+ au+@ st+ ls@
	kk+ hi++ as+ va- dr+ so zh vi da sy- say++ dol++ ith-- mer ?lu ?su ?ge
	jd pi+@ he+ dt ps(+)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 09:05:25
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Pirates

To: [DECODE PASSFILE: ************]
	fmuldoon@hivers.templars.zho.clone.conspire.boat
From: dsculden37589932501875839215551.25@IOL.boat
Subject: Pirates

>it's our own Empire doing this to us!
>The Zhunastu are still with us, Sculden, they have
>become a secret force working at the Empire's behest to
>harass the merchants and shippers of the core worlds; not
>enough to come anywhere close to being a true threat to
>trade, but just enough to cause Fear, Loathing, and Doubt

Muldoon,

I've found some very old records, dating back to the last days of the
Sylean Federation.

They refer to a group known as the 'Friends of Cleon', and a technique of
seeding pirates within a system, in order to create a demand for the
Imperial Fleet to protect them.

I find it almost impossible to believe that such a conspiracy could have
lasted this long. I think I shall have to make the trip to the AAB on Vland
- - the records of the negotiations between Cleon Zhunatsu and the Bureaux
should still be there. If such a technique existed, then it must have been
discussed in those negotiations.

There is a second line of enquiry, Muldoon, and the implications scare me.
As you know, the IISS has two basic divisions - Administration, and the
Field Service. Ananlysis of IISS records indicate many members of the Scout
service have formal training in commodities brokerage. I would expect these
persons to be concentrated in the Purchasing units of the Administration,
yet many of them are in the Field.

Muldoon, can our own Empire be not only supporting Piracy, but training
Pirates in the techniques to profitably fence stolen goods ?

Sculden

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 16:49:43 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: TNS

warlock@imagin.net wrote:
> 
> Jim Cooper wrote:
> >
> > The eyes are failing me, but we need to know.
> >
> > I have been looking in the information I have but can find no reference
> > to the TAS or the TNS having made the transition to the Regency from 3I.
> 
> You can stop looking, Jim. There wasn't one.

I would agree with your summation of where offices would likely be
located. I feel that there would have been most of that in place in the
Regency from before. Couple that with the probable amount of Cr that had
accumulated and not been transferred to HO, there should have been
enough to re-start or startup an R-TAS. If no other's have taken up the
cause then I guess I can create at will. There would certainly be a
number of the financially able, corp's/mega-corps and some sponsored
chaps who could benefit from such an organization not to mention those
who had belonged and were now out of it. My guess is that it would be
one of them that grab the bull by the horns so to speak.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 17:05:03 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: MegaTraveller Ship Design

Jens.Maskus wrote:
> 
> I'm still using MTDesign system with some modifications!
> 
 
Is that avaialable in DOS, Windows versions and fropm where?
Did anyone ever put the CT ship design into a computer program?

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 20:02:49 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Subs & Sandwiches (short!)

>From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
>Subject: Re: Subs & Sandwiches (short!)
...
>In TNE you can get a TL-11 laser pack for the modular cutter. It doesn't
>have on board sensors, but has its own power. If the cutter played it cool
>until the pirate was alongside the pirate is going to get rather hurt. IMO
>this could act as a significant deterent, because any cutter could be the
>one carrying the pack.

  As a starship equipped pirate, I'll just send across a boat full of apes.

  OTOH, having a honking big det-laser array deploy inside a ballistic cargo
capsule might also serve as an object lesson for the terminally sticky
fingered.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 20:03:09 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy

>From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>Subject: Re: Piracy
...
>This might result in some interesting bureaucratic warfare - IN
>Intelligence quietly orginising 'private' anti-piracy expiditions against
>the official policy. After all, if the bureaucracy issuing the orders is a
>year away, it will take them at least a year to find out, and at least a
>year to countermand it. Then we get to query the countermand order, then we
>get to fire some 'rogue subordinate' etc etc .

  Apparently in Spanish colonial America there was a formula that a viceroy
could apply to an order from the peninsula - (trans.) "I obey but do not
implement". IIRC, they automatically faced reviews of their performance
afterwards, so they had to be restrained and responsible.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 00:51:25 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Piracy

Ian Whitchurch wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Going through the bulkheads will cost our pirate time, which they probably
wont have, assuming any forces at all in the system.

And I still think shooting captains who disable the computer system is a
viable tactic for pirates.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Minutes (to blow the hatch) vs hours (to hack the computer).
And I still think that if the target was jump-capable, it would have jumped
to escape your attack in the first place. And the computer could
probably be scrambled by the Captain, Command Pilot, Navigator,
Chief Engineer, Owner Aboard, or even the Chief Purser (who may be
the senior company representative on board, and is often in charge of
security anyway). Which one do you shoot? The company will probably
(quietly) commend the guy who got the Captain shot but saved their
200MCr starship for them.

Ian again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Thirdly, personal defense forces include planetary and subsector navies,
which are usually seen as being outside the non-wartime IN chain of command.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
For "personal" I should have used "private" - owned and commanded
by civilians instead of the Imperium's captive governments.

I would agree that planetary navies are outside the non-wartime IN 
chain of command, but I don't see the Imperium allowing autonomous
(or even semi-autonomous) interstellar warfleets within their borders.
Too tempting for those recently-conquered provinces to take those
warfleets and declare themselves independent again, no? Note that
I'm talking "recent" from a conservative Vilani point of view here.

I see subsector and sector navies as being the colonial fleets that are
based, supported and tasked to the areas they are native to, while
the IN rotates regular fleets through as meets their grand strategy - 
both, however, will be answerable to the same overall chain of
command at all times, though they may have different roles.
If the Imperial Admiral in charge of the sector berates the subsector
admiral for chasing pirates when he should be watching the Zhodani,
the anti-piracy campaign will go away (or at least become more
discreet).

Ian again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>"But we need those escort craft to protect our shipping!"
>"The Navy will protect your shipping. Control of spacelanes is
>our responsibility - _not_ yours."
>"But Pinata system hasn't seen a Navy patrol flotilla in six months!"
>"Our resources are allocated efficiently. Would you like to fill out
>a complaint form?"
>

"Would five megacredits change your mind ?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That's why Merchants can get Bribery skill. :) And the Merchants
will probably have more money to bribe people with than the Pirates
will.

Maybe the Merchants will just cut out the middle man (Navy) and bribe
the Pirates. "Here's a megacredit, please leave us alone."

"Here's two megacredits. Could you go after this guy's ship instead?"

"Here's the empty hold of my ship. You wouldn't happen to know
anyone who can't get to a legal starport and needs to sell a big
pile of cargo, would you?" :)

Ian again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This is balanced by Naval Intelligence realising the risk that a network of
pirate bases represent - what happens when an Enemy Power starts using
these to gather intelligence ?

This might result in some interesting bureaucratic warfare - IN
Intelligence quietly orginising 'private' anti-piracy expiditions against
the official policy. After all, if the bureaucracy issuing the orders is a
year away, it will take them at least a year to find out, and at least a
year to countermand it. Then we get to query the countermand order, then we
get to fire some 'rogue subordinate' etc etc .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I read a series about a modern day man in medieval Poland - Cross
Time Engineer, author escapes me. His best friend was a Priest, then
a Friar, then a Bishop. Just before each promotion, his friend was
ordered by the Vatican to investigate him for Heresy (and probably
execute or at least ruin him). By the time the orders made the trip
from the Vatican to the depths of Poland, the holy man's situation had
changed so much he had to send another message back asking for
more instructions. The Priest even got to the point where he wrote 
a letter to his superior in Rome, was promoted to that superior's position
while the letter was in transit - his own letter got forwarded back to
him in Poland (since he now held the Office the letter was addressed to),
and he had to answer his own question - of course, by writing the 
Vatican for even more instructions. I will completely agree that someone
who wants to take advantage of a long communications lag to show 
some "personal initiative" can do so.

Heck, the Regina sector head of IN Intelligence will probably retire before
an inspector from Core comes out to see what he did with all those
Light Cruisers... :)

Ian again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I was referring to how you can watch the ship you captured enter jump,
>but (for a week, anyway) you can't see where it's going - or even if it
>went anywhere at all. The captured navigator pops the clutch a second
>early or late, the ship enters jumpspace for a week and goes nowhere - 
>he figures that he has a better chance of survival, even with your thugs 
>on board, if he's in a civilized system with no jump fuel aboard.

His chances of survival under these circumstances are actually about nil.
He'll be the first one shot when the captured ship arrives in the wrong place.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
To what gain? Shooting him isn't going to put enough hydrogen in 
your tanks to get away from the patrol cruisers. To set an example
for other merchants? That only works if you get to play pirate again - 
the only person you'll make an impression on by shooting the 
Navigator is the local IMoJ Magistrate when he's deciding whether to
transport you to a penal colony or have you executed to set an
example for other Pirates.

If the prize crew is bloodthirsty or fanatical (or just plain stupid), you've
got a different story - but in these cases the Navigator's life was
probably forfeit anyway.


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 01:07:52 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Intra-system piracy

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
In TNE you can get a TL-11 laser pack for the modular cutter. It doesn't
have on board sensors, but has its own power. If the cutter played it cool
until the pirate was alongside the pirate is going to get rather hurt. IMO
this could act as a significant deterent, because any cutter could be the
one carrying the pack.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Now you just need a cutter crew gutsy enough to take the one shot
they're going to get at the pirate before it blows them to confetti.

Nastier idea - some people have mentioned unmanned supply shuttles
as pirate targets. What if the owners rig a couple of these to explode
if tampered with or sent a code by a patrol ship? Much worse for
the pirate than the laser pack will be, especially if the 71-ton bomb
in the shuttle goes off in the pirate's cargo bay. Enough of the things
a mining colony would need (explosives, fuels, oxygen) make good
bomb parts anyway.

Of course, the shuttle bomb idea would only be used if pirates have
been really racking up the shuttles lately. If the locals are considering
these, the pirate has overstayed his welcome and needs to find some
new hunting grounds - which any pirate should do on a regular basis as
a matter of course.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #562
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, June 7 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 563



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

FIASCO
Re: Pirates take the whole ship?
Re: Hijacking summation?
Selling a Starship
Re: Imperial Navy taskings
Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)
Starports & Revenue (was Imperial Navy taskings)
re: Thoughts on sensors
Re: Pirates and Jump stations (?)
Re: MegaTraveller Ship Design
TAS/TNS
Re: Nobles and Insystem Piracy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 16:23:52 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: FIASCO

FIASCO will be at Armley Sports Centre (LEEDS) on the 20th of June this
year. BITS will be in attendance in the form of me & Neil Frier. Is anyone
else likely to be going?

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 09:41:40 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Pirates take the whole ship?

...
>As I have stated before, I really don't think pirates are going
>to be operating from bases.  It just won't take that long
>for the Imperium to notice the activity is all in one area
>and track them down.  They are going to be, IMO, passing as
>legit traffic the rest of the tim.

  OK. Equally, though, some see it being harder to operate within even
a basically regulated ship movement system than it is simply to avoid
the system completely by operating from a base and hitting intra-system
traffic.

...
>>gun-toting apes, of which several hundred _billion_ largely undifferentiated
>>units populate each sector of the Imperium?
>
>Well, you have simply assumed that the Imerium has detailed EMS
>signatures (from where I don't know) and that they will only
>ever get vague descriptions of "gun-toting apes".

  Actually, I'm assuming that the Imperium doesn't have EMS data filed,
but will start looking for matching profiles once they've got a report.
Even if they get a good description of a person, how could they possibly
match it up given the number of (undocumented) people on the spaceways?

...
>Well, if you don't take the crew then maybe nobody has to ge
>captured or killed.

  This seems strange - don't you still have to board to take the
cargo, regardless of your response to the crew/passengers?

...
>>  What if the imminent victims remove a copy and throw it in the linen closet?
>
>And now we are into thowing back and forth plans and counter plans.
>See my other post on the subject.  I could point out that the
>pirates then demand the missing memory module or they will kill
>the crew after all.  And then you come up with another plan
>to make sure the pirates have to take the whole ship, etc.
>It won't really prove which is more likely, just who was better
>at dreaming up schemes.

  Sort of. But it points out that pirates have effectively no control over
what useful evidence they leave behind on a ship. While it may not be likely
(say 25%, for ex.) that major EMS data is left behind, a single occurrence
may make further "legit" operations impractical, and they may not know until
too late.

  Additionally, the ship itself is proof positive that a piracy occurred.
Taking (or hiding) the ship leaves the possibility open of a misjump or
other accident, hijacking, skipping bank payments, or at least question
as to precisely where the ship went missing.

>To do this right, I should be pointing out that is it quite possible
>that the crew could disable the drive and it simply might not
>be possible to take the ship.

  A good point. If I were the pirate - and from the economic analyses
that I've seen, it's worth killing everyone on board to get them to
fix it just so you can have the ship to sell. PC's, OTOH, might do this
as a matter of course :)

...
>Sure, but the cost of the these devices is also trivial.  The
>fact is that their value is nothing compared to a car.  If you
>think that being cheap compared to what you are guarding is
>sufficient reason to assume it exists, then you have to ask
>why every car doesn't have such a system.

  Actually, in loss-prevention/insurance there are additional concepts;
simply, a small truck isn't a large enough (absolute, not relative) value
to get really excited over, where the loss of MCr 50-100 requires a lot
more effort by responsible personnel.

>OTOH, if you assume that it also depends on the odds that it will
>be needed (which matches better with realitiy), then it is
>quite reasonable that a ship isn't going to have repeaters and
>dozens of other things to catch pirates.  (more so because,
>again, the value to the ship owner of simply getting the pirate
>caught later one is much less than a preventative measure.)
  
  Oddly, ships have anti-hijack programs... Again, a simple review
will indicate that even small chances of a screw-up (random search,
EMS sig, patrol encounter) on an individual sortie have horrible
results for career survivability. You don't have to be targetting
Swheinfurt for a 50-mission assignment to be suicide. The problem 
with career piracy of Traveller starship cargos is that the value
of current loads isn't enough to allow a fortune to be made before
the odds catch up with the typical pirate.

>>Presumably pirates searching a ship have the same time
>>requirements as inspectors do.
>
>Except the know where to start looking, at the computer.

  A data module is the size of a small car, in keeping with the `50's idea?

>>  I'm going to assume that for ID'ing a ship that camera/sensor recordings
>>are vastly more useful than sapients seeing the ship or boarders. Does that
>>sound reasonable?
>
>No.  It sounds like you are assuming your arguements are right.

  Interesting. Why is a (unreliable) visual report of a suited boarder or
ship typically more useful than the same or greater info recorded by more
reliable and capable sensor systems?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 10:16:38 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Hijacking summation?

...
>>   Again, I use question marks for technical reasons. Further, I think
>> we've gone over your curious insistence that proposals that you disagree
>> with have to match some bizarre ideological view that exceedingly narrow
>> economic analyses should be applied to fundamentally political decisions.
>
>Hogwash.  I just insist that if someone has show something
>based on their point of view, they have only proven this
>it doesn't work in their point of view and that an 
>economic analysis that is based on a set of assumptions
>only holds when those assumption hold.

  You know, it's _very_ difficult to discuss what's wrong (or right)
with an assumption, model, or POV when the closest most posts get to
technical analysis is "I disagree".

>I would also caution you to not label any point of view
>as "bizzare" or "ideological".  I don't think you posts
>can be considered so much more perceptive than others as 
>to justify that.

  Amusingly enough "ideology" is a neutral term, even in California AFAIK.
As for bizarre, yes. If I want to discuss Technocracy or Social Credit then
it's probably fair to accept the label for them, as they're not widely
practiced or tested. I did ask for any examples of the systematic application
of the principle you're relying on, and provided several counter-examples
of my own. OC, you snipped all but the Green River item, answered somewhat
out of context, and ignored it further. For further examples, neither state
vs private medicine, or socialism vs. Thatcherism, OTOH, can credibly be
considered to include bizarre elements, merely subjective ones.

  As for the merit of my posts, I'm content to let them stand for themselves,
and to answer any questions that arise.

>But again, you are not required to take one benefit to get
>the other.  So if circumstance make it impossible to get
>one (because the station are to big and stationary) that
>does nothing to mean that one can't simple settle for
>the other benefit.

  True. However, if a 100-D station is economically quite viable,
then (as you argue above) then _a_ station will exist where traffic
warrants whether it supplies fuel or not. If someone then builds a
fuel tank (provably quite economical and profitable) they might as
well park it nearby, placing it within the first stations presumed
defensive envelope. OC, neither might be armed, but it seems odd if
they are more expensive than a small trader.

...(re jump-fuel-stations as Tankers)
>I didn't abandon them.  You never realy responded to them.
>I'm not going to keep repeating the same point over an
>over again.  It is a waste of bandwidth.

  Actually I was waiting for you to respond to my model of how commerce
raiding would work in the OTU. While you never did so, and merely asserted
that your mental model was equally or more valid, we've no idea what that
model is.

...
>No.  They come out when the ships that need them arrive.
>The enemy ships have to show up at just that time and
>if they can catch and defeat convoys so realiably, then it really
>doesn't matter what system you are using.

  The problem here is that the first wave of an invasion will probably
decapitate the system, without the somewhat problematic additional
fleets of Navy tankers. How do enemy and friendly ships identify 
themselves to the hiding tanker (which without thruster plates needs
days to hide - if an enemy intel source is active then it _can't_)
when even in peacetime ID is essentially verbal and unconfirmed?

  Also, ships can get killed quite handily looking for or trying to reach
a hiding station (aka "tanker"?), and can't jump to escape while doing
so. BTW, how does one locate a hiding station?

>>   The explicit cost of the available resources will be very low,
>> and given the Imperiums reason for being the justification easy.
>> All IMO, of course.
>
>Well, we went over that the last time....

  However, no serious refutation was offered as to why those existing
ships wouldn't be available (though not necessarily used) in peacetime.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 10:50:04 -0700
From: "Brannon \"Ben\" Boren" <brannonb@blarg.net>
Subject: Selling a Starship

Hi Folks,

Does anyone have experience with the economics of selling large ticket
items that still have morgatges left on them? What kind of money should
someone be able to get in the sale of a starship which still has payments
remaining on it? What percentage of the money already paid in can you
expect to recover?

Ben

- --
Brannon "Ben" Boren
brannonb@blarg.net
http://www.mog.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 11:04:27 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Navy taskings

...
>>   Covered in depth, yes. There's no evidence that partial tasking of
>> wartime light warships to internal security roles represents any real
>> reduction in their military readiness.
>
>Well, that is one point of view.  I think it is wrong as I
>metioned previously.

  Well, yes, it's my opinion. I've stated the technical (naval) reasons
why I've concluded such. Did you have a reason besides disagreeing, and
if so you could you point it out to me (ot the list at large)?

...
>More seriously I've seen nothing that would cast new light
>on the issue.  You will have to get into it without me.

  How unfortunate.

>(Ironically, I recently posts on the "GURPS side" a comment
>that nobody beats a dead horse like the TML beats a dead
>horse. :-)

  What was that around the time I arrived, IIRC. Was it one or two
flamewars you were running over there around then?

...
>Depends on what you mean by exceedingly rare.  I think piracy
>will be uncommon enough that the average starfarer will hear
>about it happening but will probably not encounter it themselves.

  Basically I look at the evidence and conclude that a reasonable effort
to restrict piracy will make career piracy (of starships or their cargo)
nonviable/suicide. Casual piracy still looks do-able (and provides most
of the risk desired to meet the feel of CT). Preying on intra-system traffic
looks good, the more so with the recent explorations of it. OC, truly
exceptional circumstances and foreign privateers/raiders also stand.

>>   Massive applies to the huge increase needed in tanker assets (IN to fit
>> the strategic requirements) that makes possible the failure to adopt the
>> system on the frontiers or in Ilelish in the period between development
>> and the Rebellion.
>
>I don't think they would be "massive".  The certainly wouldn't need
>to be the most common type of ship.

  Sorry, quantity/cost, not individual size. However, the fuel requirements
for certain High-pop systems are going to be truly staggering; such that
failure to install a TankerRon equivalent will reduce shipping capacity.
Even Jae Tellona, as reported recently, could have (varies by model) a weekly
throughput of ~4 million D-tons of shipping. Depending on fuel throughputs
that could require a several hundred thousand Dt fleet tamker on its own,
for a pop 5 world!

>>   Tankers were, however, your latest theory for implementing jump-stations
>> without the negative strategic implications that might have substantially
>> delayed deployment of said system in the frontier zones, such that the
>> lack of said system in MT wouldn't comprise a definitive statement as to
>> their impossibility.
>
>Actually the were my first example.  I later through of others.  To me,
>none of them have been discredited.  

  Luckily, I've got this stuff filed. Your first case was drop tanks, which
was not an issue as we decided to discuss stations instead after Hans kicked
you out of his threads. The fuel stations (w or w/o J-drives?!) were next,
and tankers were last. So arguably, fuel thingies with jump thingies were
your second, third, or fourth, depending on how you count. You can check the
archives from 04-29 to 05-03 to confirm; please do so yourself in future if
you're going to state it as fact ("IIRC" is fine by me), as I've little time
to do your research for you. If you've had more recent ideas that you've
thought through I'd be genuinely interested in discussing them. 

  If I've got the chronology wrong, please correct me.

  As for the last, I can well believe that.

...
>Yeah, except that jump stations don't need to be static.

  Thruster plates at 0.2-0.5 G (SWAG) are the minimum to hope for operational
survivability. Truly strategic survivability would require starship performance
that would make auxiliary TankerRon status a modest upgrade (by HG).

  BTW, does anyone have the J-#'s for FFW IN tankers?

...
>I'm not sure what you mean.  _You_ claim they wouldn't exist for any
>traffic because the would be taken out.  If that is true, then the
>precauations mentions certainly _are_ necessary for shipping companies
>to reap the savings.

  I suggested (to refresh your memory) that the strategic liabilities could
have delayed implementation until after the rebellion started. The IN would
be drastically unhappy about that, whether they could do anything about it
or not.

  However, especially as the 3I is not an interventionist unitary state
(e.g. France), it doesn't follow that shippers would care about the long
term risk to the state (& its' member worlds) enough to cough up the 
capital to Mil-spec the fuelling system, or be forced to do so without a
political struggle of near-epic proportions. You state that the two are
directly linked; can you provide further evidence/explanation?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 12:19:41 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Piracy (it's b-a-a-a-ack...)
...
>>>Well, I don't find your proposals the most cost-effecient.
>
>>- - Inspecting ships at ports is very expensive?
>>- - Using already existing assets for patrols?
>>- - Registering ship specifics and ownership?
>>- - Low levels of random inspections by patrol vessels?
>>- - Using (non-tamperproof) transponders to track ship movements.
>>- - Reviewing ship movements for anomalous behaviour (INI).
>
>Yes. I find many of them more expensive than you do.  I find
>others not possible.  Other things in this list I don't disagree
>with, but I don't think come close to making piracy impossible.
                                                        ^^^^^

  There's that word again. Strange. I don't think that it's possible
to eliminate piracy completely (e.g., however rare I think that the
crew of a patrol vessel mutinying might be, it could, and in the 3I,
_must_ happen occasionally)

  Could you just tick off the ones that you do consider viable, and
likewise for the not possible/practical? Which one(s) do you consider
to be too expensive to implement, or at least sufficiently so as to
be marginal?
  
...
>[And again let us drop out your insertion of terms like
>"very" expensive since I never claimed they had to be "very"
>expensive, I wish you wouldn't do it, I don't have time to
>waste hunting for those things and commenting on them.]

  Sorry, habit. It saves a lot of trouble in discussing history,
economics, or poli-sci, in my experience. The point in that case
was that if inspecting ships at ports isn't "very" expensive then
expense isn't a genuinely compelling argument.

>>  IIRC, minimal combat vessel presence, or none in some cases, no
>>meaningfully useful ship registry data, no effort to track personnel
>>of any sort, including passenger manifests (again, forget piracy and
>>just go a-slavin' - they even pay to board!), no effort to confirm
>>ship ID's (and no real way of doing so), and no interest in checking
>>the uncollected movement data for anomalies?
>
>No.  I never said any of this.  They are all taking my points
>and pushing them to an extreme that they were never intended
>to cover (I have specifically commented, for example, how
>not having fool proof ID isn't the same as having no ID).

  Didn't you specify that tracking individuals (e.g., passengers)
was something that you disagreed with. Ditto for cross-checking
reported ship movements for anomalies? Stating the (IYTU) lack of
patrol vessels in many systems regardless of demonstrations about
the number of extant units? 

  Didn't your response to transponders (literally tamperproof or
not) very nearly amounted to the honour system by radio?

  I have to wonder about a security regime where a pirate is more
concerned about having his vacc suit rather than his ship ID'd.

...
>We could, if we didn't have to go back and revisit points
>already raised and I didn't have to keep correcting your
>spin on what I said.  Otherwise I just don't have time.

  Given your documented habit of distributing misattributions as to
others' statements, I'll assume that was irony.

...(controlling nukes)
>What do we use today?  Probably a mixture of methods including
>corp, local, and Imperial measures.

  OK. Aren't the locals in particular going to be open to offers
for exporting illegally? It's a great market for a TL 6 world.

>>  As I described it further down, you wouldn't stop and search anything
>>like every vessel, nor am I sure that circumvention is a trivial task.
>
>It doesn't have to "trivial" and I never claimed it was.  It just

  "Non-trivial" in the sense that circumvention is a procedure itself
potentially susceptible to a significant added failure rate.

>has to be reasonably possible.  And yes, if you wanted to stop
>terrorist from moving nukes you would have to stop and search
>most, if not all, ships.

  Yes, but I've already stated (in snipped section) that I don't
believe that a terrorist carrying a nuke can be reasonably stopped.

...
>As a Ph. D. Chemist, I don't buy the assumption that all
>you need is a seeker and a source of uranium ore.

  OK.

>are better off keeping people from setting up unauthorized
>mining operations. 

  Oh my. Isn't that going to require a lot of inspectors?

...
>of suspicious ship, coupled with investigation back tracking
>goods do their source, etc. will be in use and will be sufficient.

  OK. The only one that involves truly significant costs is the
use of patrol vessels for rare random boardings of smaller (and
presumably tramp) vessels.

...
>If you spend a day searching a ship (you are going to have to

  I really can't see spending a day on a ship unless you've hauled
it over with real suspicion. 

>get into every small compartment and resesses) and do it at every stop,
>I think you can stop "many" nukes.  The cost in lost trade and
>inspectors would be huge.  It woudln't be certain (just like/...

  Ships at ports aren't being delayed, and the cost of inspectors
does seem like a reasonable administrative role. Ships being stopped
at random should be pretty minor overall, particularly if restricted
to smaller, mostly tramp, vessels (assuming that large corps will have
a variety of incentives to police themselves).

...
>Well, both will stop a gieger counter.  The cost depends on
>who is doing the smuggling.  There are possible groups who
>woudl be willing to pay it.

  The increased signature from a nuke being affected by a nuclear
damper won't be detectable?

...
>What you did was take the thread on smuggling nukes and start
>refering to those doing the smuggling as "smugglers".  I assumed
>you meant this as anyone who was smuggling a nuke (which includes
>agents and terrorist).  If you mean "common smugglers", sure you
>can deter them, but you still haven't stopped the others.

  I thought the separation between politicals and profit-seekers
was clear. I doubt that the others can reliably be stopped.

...
>a) The setting presumes some control of what enters the Imperium
>or there are other problems that make this debate a sideshow.

  OK. Wouldn't it be advisable to extend some form of the presumed
entry registry system throughout the Imperium?

>b) The same proceedure you cite to bypass the frontier could
>be used to bypass the inspections you are putting your faith in.

i) Most inspections would take place at ports. To avoid these a
ship must avoid ports; not an option for merchants running the
occasional scam, or someone trying to get a stolen ship to the
frontier.

ii) The inspections in question are to deal with long-term internal
problems. If a ship has (for ex) a 1% chance of being searched on
a pass-through, then a terrorist delivering a bomb (or corsair
delivering a raider party, or an unlicensed pilot violating some
shipping reg) is very unlikely to be caught.

  However, an enemy intelligence ship, or a smuggler importing nuclear
missiles for the well-dressed pirate, may have to make dozens of jumps
on their journeys. At this point even very small chances of being
stopped and searched become quite significant sources of risk.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 12:40:06 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Starports & Revenue (was Imperial Navy taskings)

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Navy taskings (not piracy?)
...
>the point (it doesn't matter if revenues for starports
>are presented with the costs of running the starport
>already subtracted, the fact remains that those costs
>will detract from how much of the taxes and fees paid
>at those ports will be available for other uses). 

  So the Imperium runs the starports and gets a significant element of
its' revenue stream from taxes and fees paid at them?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 12:56:03 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Thoughts on sensors

>> I don't follow this at all. I don't see where the wavelength term in
>> (power*sensor area*wavelength) comes from - photon statistics? Seems
>> unlikely. In any event, in FFS2/DSR LIDARs are only used to track-already
>> detected targets and hence can (as you say) narrow their scan area down (to
>> 1/100,000,000 of an equivalent radar, not 10,000) and get greater range
>> and/or (as the rules imply) get away with being much, much smaller. FFS2
>> LIDARs run in the UV, too, which helps still more.

>Um, no -- it's scanning 1/10,000 the angle at 10 times the distance, which is a
>million times the area I guess.
It's scanning 1/10,000 the angle, which is (1/10,000)^2 the area at a 
given distance.

>The wavelength term is due to energy per photon and background radiation
>statistics, and is drawn from standard information on radars.
I suspect it's not background radiation if it's current standard information;
modern radars are limited by receiver noise, not background radiation. This
probably means that for a given receiver temperature you get less noise for
shorter wavelengths, so I'm still not sure why sensitivity would go up at
longer wavelengths. Could you dig up a reference? In any event, a scaling
law from radar won't extrapolate well to LIDARs...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 13:10:32 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Pirates and Jump stations (?)

(possible spoiler for Assignment: Vigilante follows)
  (this one was sitting in my out-box overlooked)

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Pirates and Jump stations (?)
...
>OK.  I agree that it would make piracy harder.  I just have
>doubts about "extinct".

  Piracy _would continue_ at some (reduced) rate. The original
post was meant to attract attention to the piracy implications
of the jump-station debate by way of a joke. That's why the
subject header changed way back from "NEWS FLASH...".

...
>Will the orbital motion of the planet (or station if you have it in
>solar orbit) for a day (that is the variation
>in jump period right?) coupled with the variation in the
>spacial location of the exit point (which I think is
>relatively small on these scales) not put the ship
>out of range of a ship at the jump point.  I think
>it will, but I haven't gone through the numbers.

  I'm not sure either way, and this one may vary greatly by campaign.
IIRC, Mr. Miller posted a T4.1 section a while back and there was a
deal of gnashing of teeth over the implications. Would it be best to
leave this unaddressed, with the statement that greater distance from
the "jump-station(/planet)" makes for greater piracy opportunities?

>> >Depends on whether the Imperium bothers to list the crew and
>> >passengers for every single jump and how much trouble they
>> >go to do that.  You list could just be one that the captain
>> >made up for his own reference.
...
>I don't see not making sure that every ship has a some sort of
>unfoolable document of every person aboard on every
>jump that can be checked at the destination without
>communication back to the starting point as "going out
>of its way to allow pirates, smugglers, spies, child-molesters and
>travelling salesmen to operate at will"

  I was being facetious, but it seems highly unlikely that someone
(whether Navy, COACC, customs/immigration, shipping lines, insurance
company staff, other 3I office [?]) won't keep detailed lists of at
least crew; see the April (?) thread about replacing (or not) lost crew
at short notice with unknown quantities. The MT adventure (A:V?) where
a pirate gang tries to acquire ships by reporting them stolen (via a
tap into the x-boat net) and then showing up as repo men is a great
example. Admittedly it works better in the Rebellion, as a jump or
three puts them into the Wilds, whereas in 1115 they've got to hide/
chop/race to the frontier once the Navy catches on to the theft.

  And if we're going to take things to their natural conclusions as
you suggest - and with which I agree - then wouldn't the absence of
meaningfully reliable passenger manifests make kidnapping or slavery
a genuinely profitable sideline?

...
>Lets stay away from snide remarks.  I made a valid point. Please
>give me the respect I deserve.

  It might be helpfully pointed out that accepting the thesis that
no one in the Imperium faces a requirement to maintain reliable
personnel rosters ends the debate by conceding that hijacking is
easy, which it would be under that regulatory regime. As for the
other, you have your own style, which I've politely complained to
you about before.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 22:30:24 +0000
From: "Jens.Maskus" <Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Subject: Re: MegaTraveller Ship Design

It is a STAROFFICE 4.0 Spredsheet. (It is far from complete, but i think it is big and useful to 
me, if you want i can send it and answer questions ;-)

Jens


On Sat, 06 Jun 1998 17:05:03 -0700, Jim Cooper wrote:

>Jens.Maskus wrote:
>> 
>> I'm still using MTDesign system with some modifications!
>> 
> 
>Is that avaialable in DOS, Windows versions and fropm where?
>Did anyone ever put the CT ship design into a computer program?
>
>Jim
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 07:49:41 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: TAS/TNS

Jim Asked
>The eyes are failing me, but we need to know.
>
>I have been looking in the information I have but can find no reference
>to the TAS or the TNS having made the transition to the Regency from 3I.
>Last dated message 312-1130 was from Sestao/Reft when the Deneb navy
>closed their borders and wished all well. The last message to all TNS
>data nodes was unidentified. I assume that that portions of the TNS and
>a lot of TAS that was in what we now call the Regency still survives in
>some form or other. If so, where would the headoffices of TAS and TNS
>be. If not would it be feasible to have some character(s) reorganize it
>following similar guide lines?

TNS was folded into/superceded by SMART (MTJ 1-4). Smart is the library and
news service of the Regency, at least as early as 1121.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 07:52:12 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Nobles and Insystem Piracy

>Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 23:25:04 -0400
>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
>Subject: Re: Nobles and Insystem Piracy
>
>> You may also have people like Marine Sergant Second Class Sir Joe
>> Mokalvski, Viscount Roushnet, who is of course known as 'Sargent Mokalvski'
>> becuase that is a title he earned the hard way, rather than just by being a
>> third son of some noble.
>>
>> Calling him 'Your Excellency' or 'Vicount' is a good way to get hit.
>
>Depending on who his parents are, I kinda doubt he'd be Viscount Roushnet.
>The heavier titles would pass on to the oldest kid in the 3I.  Most likely,
>he'd just be a knight, or if he was in line for the title, he'd most
>likely be
>an officer.  He wouldn't actually inherit the title until Mom/Dad kick off.
>

Not necessarily... Vilani pass to the THIRD child (V&V), rather than the first.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #563
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, June 8 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 564



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

V&V availability? (was-Re: Nobles and Insystem Piracy)
Re: Pirates take the whole ship?
Re: Hijacking summation?
Re: Imperial Navy taskings
Intra-System trade (was re:Piracy vs Intra-System...)
Length of Days and Gravity?
Re: Length of Days and Gravity?
Re: Gravity
Does anyone know?
The Lure of Reward Money...
Re: Does anyone know?
Re: The Lure of Reward Money...
Re: The Lure of Reward Money...
Re: Looking for a Game
Re: Gravity
Re: Does anyone know? 
Re: Does anyone know? 
Re: Realistic approaches to prevention

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 18:50:20 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: V&V availability? (was-Re: Nobles and Insystem Piracy)

William F. Hostman wrote:

> Not necessarily... Vilani pass to the THIRD child (V&V), rather than the first.

Anyone know where I can get a copy of Vilani & Vargr?  I just really need the
Vilani stuff unless the Vargr stuff is substantially different from the Vargr Alien
Module.

And is there anyway to tell someone is Vilani just by looking at them?

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 17:03:46 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Pirates take the whole ship?

Sun, 07 Jun 1998 09:41:40 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>As I have stated before, I really don't think pirates are going
>>to be operating from bases.  It just won't take that long
>>for the Imperium to notice the activity is all in one area
>>and track them down.  They are going to be, IMO, passing as
>>legit traffic the rest of the tim.

>  OK. Equally, though, some see it being harder to operate within even
>a basically regulated ship movement system than it is simply to avoid
>the system completely by operating from a base and hitting intra-system
>traffic.

Yes, this is something that has been debated extensively.

>  Actually, I'm assuming that the Imperium doesn't have EMS data filed,
>but will start looking for matching profiles once they've got a report.
>Even if they get a good description of a person, how could they possibly
>match it up given the number of (undocumented) people on the spaceways?

If they also have the description of the ship and what the crew
obeserved about it before they were taken, they have a real
start.  Then, if they catch them, they have that much more
evidence.

>>Well, if you don't take the crew then maybe nobody has to ge
>>captured or killed.
>
>  This seems strange - don't you still have to board to take the
>cargo, regardless of your response to the crew/passengers?

Yeah, but you can demand they remain in their cabins or you
will shoot them.

>>And now we are into thowing back and forth plans and counter plans.
>>See my other post on the subject.  I could point out that the
>>pirates then demand the missing memory module or they will kill
>>the crew after all.  And then you come up with another plan
>>to make sure the pirates have to take the whole ship, etc.
>>It won't really prove which is more likely, just who was better
>>at dreaming up schemes.
>
>  Sort of. But it points out that pirates have effectively no control over
>what useful evidence they leave behind on a ship.

But it doesn't.  Any evidence collection scheme that is widely used
will be known to the pirates and they will have a chance to come
up with counter measures (which was the point of my other post).

>While it may not be likely
>(say 25%, for ex.) that major EMS data is left behind, a single occurrence
>may make further "legit" operations impractical, and they may not know until
>too late.

Which means the crime isn't totally without risk.  We already knew
that since not every ship in the Imperium gets seized.  Piracy
will indeed by a risky business.

>  Additionally, the ship itself is proof positive that a piracy occurred.
>Taking (or hiding) the ship leaves the possibility open of a misjump or
>other accident, hijacking, skipping bank payments, or at least question
>as to precisely where the ship went missing.

Which are other reason that a pirate might not take the ship.

>  A good point. If I were the pirate - and from the economic analyses
>that I've seen, it's worth killing everyone on board to get them to
>fix it just so you can have the ship to sell. PC's, OTOH, might do this
>as a matter of course :)

Yeah, my point is that there are incentives both ways.  Yes
a ship is worth a lot.  However, pirates who take the ship
re going to be much higher priorities for law enforcement.
Different pirates will be willing to take different risks
and different situations will produce different amounts
of risk.  (For example, does the Imperium see all pirates
as the same?  Or do they concentrate on those who take whole
ships and kill people, leaving the others as an after thought?)

>>Sure, but the cost of the these devices is also trivial.  The
>>fact is that their value is nothing compared to a car.  If you
>>think that being cheap compared to what you are guarding is
>>sufficient reason to assume it exists, then you have to ask
>>why every car doesn't have such a system.

>  Actually, in loss-prevention/insurance there are additional concepts;
>simply, a small truck isn't a large enough (absolute, not relative) value
>to get really excited over, where the loss of MCr 50-100 requires a lot
>more effort by responsible personnel.

Well, car insurance is a big industry.  Big enough a scale for the
reasoning you mention to take hold.  For the individualy the
lesser cost of the car is ofset by the lesser cost of the
system (and a car is still a major investment).  Also, so
my example of home security systems in my other post.

>>OTOH, if you assume that it also depends on the odds that it will
>>be needed (which matches better with realitiy), then it is
>>quite reasonable that a ship isn't going to have repeaters and
>>dozens of other things to catch pirates.  (more so because,
>>again, the value to the ship owner of simply getting the pirate
>>caught later one is much less than a preventative measure.)

>  Oddly, ships have anti-hijack programs...

Yes, they have _some_ security.  They already have computer
so they stick some software on it.  The point is that you
simply can't suppose that every measure you can think of
will exist and hope to be realistic.

>Again, a simple review
>will indicate that even small chances of a screw-up (random search,
>EMS sig, patrol encounter) on an individual sortie have horrible
>results for career survivability.

Well, most criminal who stick with crime do get caught.  That
is realsitic.

>You don't have to be targetting
>Swheinfurt for a 50-mission assignment to be suicide.

No, the odds are that you will get caught.  Though you probably,
like most criminals, don't _plan_ a 50 crime career.  You
plan to take one cargo at a time and your greed keeps
you pushing your luck.  As my uncle who is an FBI agent
says, that is who criminals get caught, they are by nature
greedy and they push their luck.

To put it another way, if you are postulating a crime that
exists, but is not rampant, there has to be _some_ risk.
Otherwise every Tom, Dick, and Harry who has access to an
armed ship will turn to piracy.

>>No.  It sounds like you are assuming your arguements are right.
>
>  Interesting. Why is a (unreliable) visual report of a suited boarder or
>ship typically more useful than the same or greater info recorded by more
>reliable and capable sensor systems?

Again, you are simply assuming that all visual reports are unreliable.
Also, I am assuming that _both_ are useful.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 17:49:46 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Hijacking summation?

[I am not interested in posts about "who is posting right".  If we
don't get back to new ideas I will drop out...]
Sun, 07 Jun 1998 10:16:38 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>>   Again, I use question marks for technical reasons. Further, I think
>>> we've gone over your curious insistence that proposals that you disagree
>>> with have to match some bizarre ideological view that exceedingly narrow
>>> economic analyses should be applied to fundamentally political decisions.

>>Hogwash.  I just insist that if someone has show something
>>based on their point of view, they have only proven this
>>it doesn't work in their point of view and that an
>>economic analysis that is based on a set of assumptions
>>only holds when those assumption hold.

>  You know, it's _very_ difficult to discuss what's wrong (or right)
>with an assumption, model, or POV when the closest most posts get to
>technical analysis is "I disagree".

Hogwash again.  First of all, you are being inconsitent.  You claim
I require narrow economic analysis and then that I won't get into
any analysis.

I have explained why I disagree, except for instances
where I have already explained it, over and over, in threads
that have been beaten to death and we already know where every
one stands and those instances where we have discussed things to the
point that it has been shown that the only disagreement is what kind
of society we see the Imerium to be.  (and event then we have
discussed why we see things that way).  If I was just saying "I disagree"
these posts would be a _lot_ shorter.

If you are claiming that you are somehow giving reasons while I am
just say "not so", I'll say again, Hogwash.  I remind you that
you are the one who used the terms "bizzare" and "exceedingly narrow".

>I did ask for any examples of the systematic application
>of the principle you're relying on, and provided several counter-examples
>of my own. OC, you snipped all but the Green River item, answered somewhat
>out of context, and ignored it further.

I have not answered things that a) have been beaten to death, and
b) I don't care about anymore.  If I let you get the last word on those
and rested on what I said before, I see nothing wrong with that.
Nor have you been adverse to dropping points for whatever reason.
If you have a problem with my not being willing to debate what
you want to, that is your problem, not mine.

If you feel that I ahve taken something out of context, then say
what you were really saying.  It is, after all, something
 I have had to do numerous times.

[Stuff where I can't tell if the poster is trying to say he didn't
mean to call my viewpoint "bizarre" or is trying to justify doing
so has been deleted.]

>>But again, you are not required to take one benefit to get
>>the other.  So if circumstance make it impossible to get
>>one (because the station are to big and stationary) that
>>does nothing to mean that one can't simple settle for
>>the other benefit.

>  True. However, if a 100-D station is economically quite viable,
>then (as you argue above) then _a_ station will exist where traffic
>warrants whether it supplies fuel or not. If someone then builds a
>fuel tank (provably quite economical and profitable) they might as
>well park it nearby, placing it within the first stations presumed
>defensive envelope.

Sure.  But, one last time, if the situation become one where those
stations are untenable, one is not going to decide not building
fueling stations because you can't also build a trade station.
So explaining why the trade staions might not exist doesn't
explain why the fueling station don't exist.

>...(re jump-fuel-stations as Tankers)
>>I didn't abandon them.  You never realy responded to them.
>>I'm not going to keep repeating the same point over an
>>over again.  It is a waste of bandwidth.

>  Actually I was waiting for you to respond to my model of how commerce
>raiding would work in the OTU. While you never did so, and merely asserted
>that your mental model was equally or more valid, we've no idea what that
>model is.

Then why did you claim that I abandoned them if you were the
one holding off?

Nor am I aware of any "model" that you proposed.

>>No.  They come out when the ships that need them arrive.
>>The enemy ships have to show up at just that time and
>>if they can catch and defeat convoys so realiably, then it really
>>doesn't matter what system you are using.

>  The problem here is that the first wave of an invasion will probably
>decapitate the system, without the somewhat problematic additional
>fleets of Navy tankers.

Well, as I pointed out a while back, if commerce raiding also
entailed bombardment of the system, it seems odd that it was
refered to as raiding "commerce" and not attacking the whole system.
I also pointed out that you can indeed have a fleet that
can attack ships jumping in and out without having enough
firepower to get back such planetary defenses as deep meson
sites.

>How do enemy and friendly ships identify
>themselves to the hiding tanker (which without thruster plates needs
>days to hide - if an enemy intel source is active then it _can't_)
>when even in peacetime ID is essentially verbal and unconfirmed?

What do you mean, "even in peacetime"?  Are you saying that
ID will be _relaxed_ when war breaks out?  And that this will
be done even though the presence of convoys means that you
can ID a whole fleet of ships together rather than having
do do them one at a time?  And don't you think the presence
of enemy fleets moving around and attacking ships would make
people willing to do things they wouldn't do in peacetime?

>  Also, ships can get killed quite handily looking for or trying to reach
>a hiding station (aka "tanker"?), and can't jump to escape while doing
>so. BTW, how does one locate a hiding station?

The station can either come out to them (if you simply put
a maneuver drive on it) or tell them where he is.

>>>   The explicit cost of the available resources will be very low,
>>> and given the Imperiums reason for being the justification easy.
>>> All IMO, of course.
>>
>>Well, we went over that the last time....
>
>  However, no serious refutation was offered as to why those existing
>ships wouldn't be available (though not necessarily used) in peacetime.

And from where I stand sufficient refutation was indeed offered and
no serious counter arguement was offered.

God these "nothing you said was worthwhile" exchanges are wearysome!

What do people think the other person is going to respond
with?  "Gee, your right"???  And why, just because someone
doesn't waste time saying the same things one said last time,
all over again, do some people feel that means they should attack
the other in general terms.  Can't they just agree that it has already
been discussed and agree to disagree rather than going on
pointlessly recapping positions that everyone already knows?

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 18:06:23 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Navy taskings

Sun, 07 Jun 1998 11:04:27 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>  What was that around the time I arrived, IIRC. Was it one or two
>flamewars you were running over there around then?

It was when I was dealing with another person who felt that if
he couldn't support his positions with reasons, then he should
attack the other person.  I wasn't the only one who had problems
with his tatics.

Here, running flamewars seems to be what
you consider to be _your_ domain.  I won't intrude on your
domain.  Personal attacks is where I draw the line.  That was how
I ended it over there.  You can get the last word in and use the
opportunity to talk about how right you think you were.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 21:15:21 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Intra-System trade (was re:Piracy vs Intra-System...)

Mark Logue wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Problem with your theory:
If the cargo is live or valuable, intrasystem transfer will be by jump-0. 
 12% of the ship devoted to jump and j-fuel is certainly less than the 
amount of HEPlaR fuel it would take to get there in the same time.  If YTU 
allows T-Plates beyond 1000Diameters, a Jump-0 still beats T-Plates to the 
destination (except for moon to planet or moon to moon, which are usually 
within 100d anyway).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Take another look at the cost of jump drives. Prices like that probably
mean production can't keep up with demand. There's so much demand
from the interstellar trade and military markets that there isn't any
jump drive production capacity left over for intra-system craft, IMO.
Even if the production is there, the price of jump drives makes
conventional drives more than competitive on the intra-system runs.
Not to mention that a mishap with your maneuver drives means you
call for the patrol cutter for a tow; mishap with jump-0 drives might mean
you have to find your way back from out past Arcturus somewhere. :)

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 20:42:20 +0000
From: "Pearson Publishing" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Length of Days and Gravity?

Does anyone have calculations for determining the lenght of a planets 
day/year/month etc?  And also for Gravity.

 -- James Pearson
"The purpose of a referee is to present obstacles 
for players to overcome as the go about seeking 
their goals ... This is a very subtle distinction ..."

The Traveller Book, p. 12

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 21:21:11 -0500
From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
Subject: Re: Length of Days and Gravity?

At 03:42 PM 6/7/98 , Pearson Publishing wrote:
>Does anyone have calculations for determining the lenght of a planets 
>day/year/month etc?  And also for Gravity.

Day is IIRC, somewhat arbitrary, depends on moons, tidal locks, etc, but
for the most part, pick what you want.

Month isn't an astronomical unit, but if you want to, you can define it for
a particular planet based on a satellite.

Year can be basically done with Kepler's Third Law (by way of Newton):
          Keplers 3rd Law --> (m1+m2)P^2 = a^3
	 a in (AU), P in (yr), m in (Msun) 

Solving for P:  P= SQRT( a^3/(m1+m2)) 
If your sun is big enough, you can disregard the mass of the planet.  ditto
with the mass of the 2nd body in the gravity equation below.

Gravity is Gm1m2/d^2 (G is the gravitational constant 6.672 59  10-11 m3
kg-1 s-2 )
>--------------
Michael Croft                                "Babeheart?  What's it about?"
mailto:Croft@neosoft.com            "It's about a cute little pig that 
http://www.neosoft.com/~croft    slaughters the English" -- Freakazoid
>--------------
    

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 23:17:29 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Gravity

How fast does gravity travel? Or better yet, If I were to cause a
gravitational distrubance in some manner, how fast would someone who is
"tuned into" the event be aware that it has occured?

The reason I ask is that I was recently re-reading the Honor Harrington
series and they employed something similar for early warning.  It cound not
send a lot of information, but it could at least let you know realtime that
something had caused it to trigger the signal.

Thanks,

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net


http://www.igateway.com/clients/kurt/mp  Morrow Project Site

http://www.igateway.com/clients/kurt/pj PJ the Welsh Terrier Site

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 21:32:45 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Does anyone know?

What is the name of the Zhondani spy agency?  I can't find it in
Alien Module 4.

What is the name of the Imperial Intellegence Service?

Does anyone know why Margesi, in the Vilis subsector, is amber
zoned?

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 21:51:44 PDT
From: "Nicholas Sylvain" <n_sylvain@hotmail.com>
Subject: The Lure of Reward Money...

>Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 18:07:20 -0700
>From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>Subject: Re: Piracy
>
>I wonder of the authorities (or insurance companies) provide
>rewards for material evidence leading to the termination of a 
>pirate operation.

Oh, you bet.  I'd wager that governments would have standing
reward offers for information on piratical operations, whether
or not the particular operation or person is already known to
the authorities.  I believe the US government does something
similar regarding terrorist threats.

Also, I would suspect that in addition to money, the Imperium
is ready to give leniency and money to the *first* member of
a pirate operation to squeal -- a'la Sammy Gravano turning in
John Gotti (a former Mafia don in the New York area, for those
not up on American criminal goings-on).  He did some prison
time, but a pittance compared to his crimes, and wrote a book...

Furthermore, the insurance companies are going to have something
similar in terms of a reward program, and a hell of a private
intelligence network and database devoted to piracy suppression.

- --
Nicholas Sylvain (n_sylvain@hotmail.com)
Assistant Prosecuting Attorney
Montgomery County, Ohio


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 23:58:14 -0500
From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
Subject: Re: Does anyone know?

At 9:32 PM -0700 6/7/98, David P. Summers wrote:
>What is the name of the Zhondani spy agency?  I can't find it in
>Alien Module 4.

Internal Security is Tavrchedle' (Morality Guardians or Thought Police)
[Adventure 6, Expedition to Zhodane].  Dunno about the external security
agency...
Michael Croft                 mailto:croft@neosoft.com
http://www.neosoft.com/~croft mailto:jcroft@carman.com
- --

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 00:25:24 -0500
From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
Subject: Re: The Lure of Reward Money...

At 9:51 PM -0700 6/7/98, Nicholas Sylvain wrote:
>I'd wager that governments would have standing
>reward offers for information on piratical operations, whether
>or not the particular operation or person is already known to
>the authorities.
>
>Furthermore, the insurance companies are going to have something
>similar in terms of a reward program, and a hell of a private
>intelligence network and database devoted to piracy suppression.

All this is of course grist for the mill.

The Hapless Adventurers take a simple delivery contract: goods to be
shipped two jumps away to a major trading hub.  The contract, secretly
arranged by a major campaign villain, is a set-up.

The MCV takes a faster ship and overjumps them to the hub, where he starts
spreading it around that the HAs are wanted criminals, with a price on
their heads on several worlds, two major insurance combines, and a rival
pirate leader.  Their ship is a skipped far-trader belonging to a
trade-combine known to reward people who return their property, no matter
how they got it back, and a criminal syndicate is offering a bounty on each
of them.  All of this goes through highly-unofficial channels only, so they
get into port fine.

The fireworks begin when the types of people who scann the arrival boards
see their ship name.

I'd probably have them lose the ship and be on the run on a planet where
everyone thinks they're dangerous space-criminals.

In fact, I think that's what I will do.  Now I just have to decide who's
going to set them up for this...
Michael Croft                 mailto:croft@neosoft.com
http://www.neosoft.com/~croft mailto:jcroft@carman.com
- --

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 00:25:24 -0500
From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
Subject: Re: The Lure of Reward Money...

At 9:51 PM -0700 6/7/98, Nicholas Sylvain wrote:
>I'd wager that governments would have standing
>reward offers for information on piratical operations, whether
>or not the particular operation or person is already known to
>the authorities.
>
>Furthermore, the insurance companies are going to have something
>similar in terms of a reward program, and a hell of a private
>intelligence network and database devoted to piracy suppression.

All this is of course grist for the mill.

The Hapless Adventurers take a simple delivery contract: goods to be
shipped two jumps away to a major trading hub.  The contract, secretly
arranged by a major campaign villain, is a set-up.

The MCV takes a faster ship and overjumps them to the hub, where he starts
spreading it around that the HAs are wanted criminals, with a price on
their heads on several worlds, two major insurance combines, and a rival
pirate leader.  Their ship is a skipped far-trader belonging to a
trade-combine known to reward people who return their property, no matter
how they got it back, and a criminal syndicate is offering a bounty on each
of them.  All of this goes through highly-unofficial channels only, so they
get into port fine.

The fireworks begin when the types of people who scann the arrival boards
see their ship name.

I'd probably have them lose the ship and be on the run on a planet where
everyone thinks they're dangerous space-criminals.

In fact, I think that's what I will do.  Now I just have to decide who's
going to set them up for this...
Michael Croft                 mailto:croft@neosoft.com
http://www.neosoft.com/~croft mailto:jcroft@carman.com
- --

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 04:35:54 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Looking for a Game

ve in southern Wisconsin, not verry far from Belleville.


JLAROSEE@aol.com wrote:

> Hi-
>    I'm trying to find a group of fellow adult Travellers in the Belleville,
> Illinois/ St Louis, Missouri area. If you can help out, contact me at JLAROSEE
> @ AOL. COM
>     Thanks-
>         Jay LaRosee



- --
My god, it's full of stars!


Http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/4467

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:59:34 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Gravity

On Sun, 7 Jun 1998, Kurt Feltenberger wrote:

> How fast does gravity travel? Or better yet, If I were to cause a
> gravitational distrubance in some manner, how fast would someone who is
> "tuned into" the event be aware that it has occured?

If I don't remember wrong gravity propagates at the speed of light. 

> The reason I ask is that I was recently re-reading the Honor Harrington
> series and they employed something similar for early warning.  It cound not
> send a lot of information, but it could at least let you know realtime that
> something had caused it to trigger the signal.

Since it travels at the speed of light this is not an option.

> Kurt Feltenberger

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 07:21:16 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Does anyone know? 

> What is the name of the Zhondani spy agency?  I can't find it in
> Alien Module 4.

SORAG.

> What is the name of the Imperial Intellegence Service?
> 
> Does anyone know why Margesi, in the Vilis subsector, is amber
> zoned?

No clue.
 
Keven
- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 07:23:19 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Does anyone know? 

> At 9:32 PM -0700 6/7/98, David P. Summers wrote:
> >What is the name of the Zhondani spy agency?  I can't find it in
> >Alien Module 4.
> 
> Internal Security is Tavrchedle' (Morality Guardians or Thought Police)
> [Adventure 6, Expedition to Zhodane].  Dunno about the external security
> agency...

Tavchedle' is more properly the guys who take care of mental hygenics in the 
Consulate.  Only time you'll see them outside of the Consulate is when the 
Zhodani take over a new planet.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:41:33 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Realistic approaches to prevention

David P. Summers writes:

>In a lot of the disucussion on this list, a lot of posts attempt to show
>that some form of undesirable human behavoir is impossible by describing
>how it would be stopped. The presumption seems to be that if nobody can
>come up with a way around it, then it can be presumed to be impossible.
>I find this unrealistic.

It's also inexact. The idea that Steven, Ian, and I have been trying to
get across is that if something becomes so expensive that you can't turn
a profit doing it, it may be presumed to whither and die. Always assuming
there are no other reasons than profit for performing the activity.
 
>The lesson I take from history is that the odds of people finding a way
>around any such plan are high enough that you are better off figuring it
>is going to happen.

Yet there are historical criminal activities that have completely disappeared
in certain specific areas of the world. I believe that mugging is way down
inside police stations, for example. (This isn't quite as facecious as it
may appear; one the main parts of my belief is based on the fact that the
amount of space that needs to be patrolled is effectively very small and just
happens to be where patrol ships are based). We've talked about modern day
piracy before. That issue is confused by the fact that any kind of attack on
a ship is technically speaking piracy (one example I found in the excellent
references Thom provided was pirates using trucks and .45 revolvers to attack
riverboats). The kind of piracy I _still_ claim I haven't heard of lately is
people getting hold of a gun-mounted vessel and hunting down prey on the high
sea. But let me turn away from pure piracy and provide a better example. When
was the last time you heard of someone sacking a city in the Carribean? You
know, the favorite passtime of the English buccaneers, collecting a fleet of
ships, sailing to some Spanish port, defeating the local garrison and holding
the mayor and other prominent men for ransom? 

>That is on reason I am so dubious of claims that any crime would be
>"impossible" in Imperium. 

In that case I have good news for you. No one, not even me, has ever claimed
that piracy would be impossible in the sense that perpetuum mobiles are
impossible. What I said was that piracy _as depicted in the CT sources_ did
not make sense.

>Another is one that is encapsulated in the example above is that every
>system that can protect something will be used as long as the cost is only 
>a fraction of what it is protecting.  After all, the cost of the contents
>of a house is a lot more than the cost of a security system [...]  Yet home
>security systems are far from universal. The reason is that this approach
>misses the fact that the odds of the crime also enter into the equation. 
>You don't spend hundreds on a security system if you thing that a dead bolt
>lock will keep the odds of some breaking in acceptably low. 

We didn't miss that. The question becomes what is an acceptable low. We
mentioned that ships are very expensive. You then suggested that maybe
pirates only stole the cargo. Only trouble with that is that it seems
extremely unlikely that any pirate could steal enough cargoes to pays
his expenses.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #564
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, June 8 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 565



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Piracy vs. insystem vessels
Jump exit points (Was: Piracy)
Re: Piracy
Re: Coyns, Ancients, and Greys
Re: The Imperial Nobility
Re: Insystem shipping, Imperial Intelligence
Re: Insystem shipping, Imperial Intelligence 
Re: The Vargr mindset
Piracy - Imperial policies
Reflections
Re: Muldoon and Sculden
Re: Selling a Starship

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:49:57 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Piracy vs. insystem vessels

Walter Smith writes:

>A thought about raiding Intra-system vessels (supply shuttles, etc):
 
>Orbital mechanics can be a pirate's best friend. If a pirate knows the
>positions of two trade points in the system (for example, the mainworld
>and a major mining station) and their orbits, he will be able to calculate
>with Navigation skill what the most time (for thrust-plate vessels) or
>fuel (for HEPlar vessels) efficient path is between the two for any time in
>the future.

Always assuming that the transit time between the two points are not so long
that it becomes cheaper to use jump ships.

>If the path is at any point outside the 100-diameter limit of solar or
>planetary bodies, you're in business.

Granted. But then, I never claimed otherwise. I said that piracy as depicted
in CT sources didn't make sense. This kind of piracy is not depicted in any
CT source that I can recall. Specifically the pirate ships you encounter via
the random ship encounter tables show up at the jump limits of mainworlds
and gas giants.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:52:13 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Jump exit points (Was: Piracy)

Bob Sanders writes:
>               ... in MTU ships have jump exit errors that increase the
>distance from the home world.  It works like this...
> 
>A jump takes 6-8 days.  Right.
>The planet and system is moving how fast?  Fast enough.  Some one else can
>do the math...

Not to say that you can't have things working that way in YTU if it works
for you, but the rules strongly imply that they don't work like that in
the OTU. Since it is quite true that a planet moves quite a bit in two days
the very fact that the rules do not mention any great variation in travel
times regardless of the duration of the jump makes it likely that the jump
exit point moves with the planet.
 
>With the random factor of exiting jump space and the distance involved there
>are some ships that are popping out in at all distances from the target
>planet.  A good pirate will wait, out from the planet, with all systems shut
>down and wait for the "straggler" to fall into his area.

Try working out the actual odds one day.
 
>In a large system, with 1000's of ships entering all the time, some will end
>up waaaaaayyyy out.  If the pirate has a FAST ship they can make it there,
>bounce the ship, take the expensive items, (forget the cargo, grab  the
>computers, passenger storage, vehicles, etc) and JUMP.

A fast ship is a costly ship (and one with little cargo space). You're
gunning for random ships which indicates that your take is likely to be
average. If you don't even take the cargo I don't see just what you
expect to grab, but even with stealing cargo, a pirate needs to catch
a ship of roughly its own size about five times a year to break even.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:53:37 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Piracy

Walter Smith writes:

>They'll do it with nothing bigger than a turret-mount beam laser or
>civilian-grade missile rack then. The Navy has less patience for
>private military-grade flotillas than it does for Pirates - in fact, it
>sees personal "defense forces" as more of a threat to the Imperium
>than any pirate. 

Wherever did you get that idea? The Imperium allows merchant lines to have
their own escort ships, member worlds to have their own navies, and
(licenced) individuals to have cruisers squadrons.
 
>Ian again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>But seriously, if piracy is a threat, then you will get an evolution in
>traders towards bigger and better-armed ships, to force concentration
>against concentration.
> 
>I believe there would also be heavily lobbying of the appropriate
>authorities for more potent weapons to be made available to merchants ("Of
>course we're a licenced StarMerc Orbital Support Element. The cargo
>hauling's just a sideline")
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>These "authorities" have their orders from a bureacracy a year's time
>away, that sees "request for more potent weapons" as "please help
>us arm ourselves for the coming rebellion of your frontier provinces".

Not based on any canonical sources I can recall.

A more cogent problem for jump-1 and jump-2 merchants is that arming the
ships will cut down payload space and increase the cost significantly if
they want to be able to maneuver and shoot at the same time. Thanks to the
rule that the power plant factor must be at least half the value of the
jump number jump-3 and higher vessels have power to spare and only lose
the space actually taken up by the weapons. Still, that's an added problem
for the would-be pirate.

>With the exception of the occaisional maverick local commander,
>the Navy's decisions are based on policies with a much bigger picture
>than a few tramp freighters lost to pirates in a backwater subsector.

Every tramp freighter I can recall seeing in a Traveller module have been
armed.
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8


- --LAA18773.897039221/vidar.diku.dk--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 15:07:02 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Coyns, Ancients, and Greys

Gary (TravelrTNE@aol.com) writes:

>Maybe Coyns from 1130+ have a Virus Coyn? Replacing one of the "special"
>coyns?  lol.

Propably not. Not unless Grandfather comes out of retirement. The last time
the coyns were revised was on his last visit to our universe around -1000.
(Btw. I don't like conspiracy theories all that much, but for you Templar
fans out there, is it a coincidence that the Darrian sun went bonkers just
about the exact time Grandfather gave our universe another checkover? And
is it a coincidence that the Rebellion and virus came along just when some
Imperial planets had reached TL 16? Where does that leave the Regency with
it's TL 16 and 1? planets?)
 
>Hans, how did your "secret of the ancients" work out?

The campaign went into a coma around halfway through the first half of the
adventure. Prognosis is not good.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 15:21:36 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: The Imperial Nobility

Keven R. Pittsinger writes:

>I'm working on Yet Another CT Noble Rework, something I used to use a LOT
>when  I was an active GM with my CT group.  It was roughly based on on an
>article I read in Adventure Gamer Magazine ca. 1981 called 'Scepter &
>Starship'.

Did you ever see the article I wrote which attempts to introduce the minor
(ie. planetary) nobility in the Traveller system? It was published in
_The Traveller Chronicle_ #9.

>In any event, here's the *temporary* social standings from 10 to 21, both 
>Imperial and planetary:
> 
>   SS              Imp Title          Planetary Title
>    A                UMC                 UMC
>    B             Knight/Dame        Knight/Dame
>    C           Baron/Baroness      Baron/Baroness
>    D          Marquis/Marquessa   Marquis/Marquessa
>    E           Count/Countess       Count/Countess
>    F            Duke/Duchess         Duke/Duchess
>    G          Viscout/<??>         Viscount/<??>
>    H          Viceroy/<??>         Viceroy/<??>
>    I       Archduke/Archduchess    Prince/Princess
>    J         Prince/Princess        King/Queen
>    K       Crown Prince/Princess      --/--
>    L         Emperor/Empress          --/--

I put the planetary nobility in between SL 10 and the Imperial nobility. The
Imperial nobility wound up with social levels from 24 (baron) to 33 (emperor).

>Some notes here.  'Planetary' royalty *IS* Imperial royalty up to SS F.
>Their oath of fealty is to the Emperor *through* their King/Queen.

FYI: In the historical feudal system oaths of fealthy were to the man directly
above you. Relationships with higher nobles was his problem.

>Planetary Viscounts and Viceroys outrank Imperial Dukes *ONLY* when on their 
>home planet, otherwise, they are considered to be Imperial Dukes/Duchesses.

Viceroy was a posting, not a rank. That dosen't mean that you can't use it
in a different way, of course.
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 23:21:41
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Insystem shipping, Imperial Intelligence

>From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
>Subject: Intra-System trade (was re:Piracy vs Intra-System...)
>
>Mark Logue wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Problem with your theory:
>If the cargo is live or valuable, intrasystem transfer will be by jump-0. 
> 12% of the ship devoted to jump and j-fuel is certainly less than the 
>amount of HEPlaR fuel it would take to get there in the same time.  If YTU 
>allows T-Plates beyond 1000Diameters, a Jump-0 still beats T-Plates to the 
>destination (except for moon to planet or moon to moon, which are usually 
>within 100d anyway).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

FFS2 puts t-plates as cutting out at 2000 AU, not 1000 diameters. YTUMV.

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Does anyone know?
>
>What is the name of the Imperial Intellegence Service?
>

Which one ?

There is the Ministry of Justice, Naval Intelligence, large chunks of the
IISS (Detatched Duty Office's Intelligence Branch, External Mapping Office
in Imperial Grand Survey, Security Office in Operations Office, Contact and
Liason Branch in the Exploration Office are the obvious ones) and friends
of Bubbles (not really official, more some friends of Bubbles who get asked
to do a couple of favours, and get slipped a blank Imperial warrant in case
they need it) the ones that come to mind.

Werent there two, or more, competing IN Intelligence agencies anyway ?

Wow, thats probably ummm four different intelligence agencies within the
IISS, not all of whom go through 'Operational Control' (CLB goes via Fleet
Support and Intelligence Branch reports direct to DDO and then to IISSHQ).
And I thought my work was a mess when it came to operational
responsibilities ("Repeat after me : Peter Reeves was looking after that" ;
"Didnt he die from a heart attack three weeks ago" ; "Yeah, he's picked up
a lot of work since he died").

>Does anyone know why Margesi, in the Vilis subsector, is amber
>zoned?

Some IISS admin officer had a hangover and mis-keyed it. Hey, it explains
why worlds with toxic atmospheres are at TL3.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 09:46:09 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Insystem shipping, Imperial Intelligence 

> >What is the name of the Imperial Intellegence Service?
> >
> 
> Which one ?
> 
> There is the Ministry of Justice, Naval Intelligence, large chunks of the
> IISS (Detatched Duty Office's Intelligence Branch, External Mapping Office
> in Imperial Grand Survey, Security Office in Operations Office, Contact and
> Liason Branch in the Exploration Office are the obvious ones) and friends
> of Bubbles (not really official, more some friends of Bubbles who get asked
> to do a couple of favours, and get slipped a blank Imperial warrant in case
> they need it) the ones that come to mind.

Who is Bubbles??

> Werent there two, or more, competing IN Intelligence agencies anyway ?
> 
> Wow, thats probably ummm four different intelligence agencies within the
> IISS, not all of whom go through 'Operational Control' (CLB goes via Fleet
> Support and Intelligence Branch reports direct to DDO and then to IISSHQ).
> And I thought my work was a mess when it came to operational
> responsibilities ("Repeat after me : Peter Reeves was looking after that" ;
> "Didnt he die from a heart attack three weeks ago" ; "Yeah, he's picked up
> a lot of work since he died").

Typical bureacracy.  'If you leave the room, you're elected'.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 15:57:10 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: The Vargr mindset

Peter Newman writes:

>Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote
> 
>>>the Vargr incursions were taking place.
>> 
>>Ah. The Vargr have the same problem that other pirates have: They have
>to steal more than they expend to steal it.
> 
>Are you sure?  I thought the reason a lot of Vargr became Corsairs was
>that being Corsairs was _charismatic_. 

That's a good point, but no amount of charisma will allow you to breathe
vacuum. The bills have to be paid somehow. If you can't steal it, the
owner/captain has to foot the bills himself. That can become very
expensive. Let's forget about purchase price and bank loans, since we
are told that Vargr corsairs usually start out by stealing the patrol
ship they are manning. But a standard Vargr Corsair (p. 13 of Alien
Module 3) requires a yearly refit costing Cr213,000 each year. The crew
requires Cr500,000/year in life support if it carries crew only. If it
also carries boarders, the bill becomes Cr1,200,000. And every time a
victim gets in one lucky shot the repair bills can run into millions.
Not to mention paying the crew.

Still, if the owner dosen't want to get any return on the money tied up
in the ship, the economics becomes much more managable. So maybe Vargr
corsairs are possible as a charisma generating transaction: You put in
money and get out charisma.

>>And if that isn't enough, if they  grow too tiresome, the Imperium can
>treat their home ports the same way they  treat other systems that
>support pirates.
> 
>So you are saying that the Imperium, which is canonically portrayed in
>MT supplements, as being able to defend itself against Vargr incursions
			  ^^^^
I presume you mean UNable.

>is in fact strong enough to mount search & destroy missions into the
>territories of Vargr states with about the same degree of difficulty
>that, say, the USA had in taking Grenada?  

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. The amount of naval power that the
Domain of Deneb can muster according to CT sources is so great that it is
those (equally canonical, I grant you) MT portrayals of Vargr incursions
that are unreasonable. We had a long discussion about it some time ago,
and I had to conceed that the Vargr incursion into Corridor is just barely
defensible (mostly because a close look at various sources reveal that they
didn't so much conquer several of the high-powered worlds in Corridor as
go around them/ally with them/leave them alone.) But the incursions into
the Domain proper are only possible if Norris decides to ignore them.
Which is somehow not the Norris I recognize.  

>IMHU & IMTU the Imperial Navy does not want to create a causus beli
>among the Vargr.

That is of course the way to go. Political decisions can hamstring the most
powerful military engine. It then becomes your call how likely you consider
it. Historically known pirate havens have lasted only as long as the nation
suffering the depredations have been unable to muster the strength to do
something about them. If you chose to believe that the Imperium would
accept frequent corsair raids rather than anger the Vargr, all I can say
is that your beliefs are not mine.

>If the Imperial Navy mounts a big raid on a Vargr world that supports "too
>much" piracy the Vargr may well use the opportunity to preach a Jihad
>against the Vargr.  If this cry is taken up by a charismatic Vargr it may
>well succeed.

Take a look at the logistics involved. For such a coordinated effort to
succeed, the Vargr nations on the Imperium's edge will have to provide
support for the forces from the more coreward nations, and the corsairs
from the coreward areas will have to decide that going 20 parsecs to raid
the Imperium is a better idea than going five parsecs to raid a neighbor
whose defenses has been weakened by going to war with the Imperium.

>...every year in the Vargr extents tens of billions of Vargr hit the
>magic age of 18, get thrown out on their tails, and have to find
>_something_ to do.

Do you have any idea how many Vargr it takes to put one of them on a
starship? About 5000.
 
>Every day this scenario repeats itself millions of times throughout the
>Vargr extents.  If the smart Corsair bands take advantage of this they
>will have lots of manpower [er Vargrpower ?].

Sure. What he won't have is enough starships to put them on.
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 10:00:04 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Piracy - Imperial policies

Hans Rancke writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>They'll do it with nothing bigger than a turret-mount beam laser or
>civilian-grade missile rack then. The Navy has less patience for
>private military-grade flotillas than it does for Pirates - in fact, it
>sees personal "defense forces" as more of a threat to the Imperium
>than any pirate. 

Wherever did you get that idea? The Imperium allows merchant lines to have
their own escort ships, member worlds to have their own navies, and
(licenced) individuals to have cruisers squadrons.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

(Nearly) anyone can put a turret-mount laser, civilian-grade missile
rack or sandcaster on their merchantman. Getting anything better
means you have a mercenary charter, or are a subject government
of the Imperium - either way, you are directly or indirectly controlled
by the Imperium. (ref: Mercenaries forced into "Bad War" contracts
by the Imperium).

Pirates steal ships. Allowing private military warfleets can foment
rebellions that can steal subsectors.

Hans again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>With the exception of the occaisional maverick local commander,
>the Navy's decisions are based on policies with a much bigger picture
>than a few tramp freighters lost to pirates in a backwater subsector.

Every tramp freighter I can recall seeing in a Traveller module have been
armed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Armed with civilian-grade "defensive" weaponry. Compare to the standard
Zhodani small merchant craft - no weaponry, nor even the hardpoints
to carry them. Zho society is so controlled that there aren't any pirates.
Your pointing out that "every tramp freighter" is armed in the Imperium
illuminates how dangerous the spacelanes of the Imperial frontiers must
be to small merchant craft.

Think about it - the only thing those light weapons are good for is
fending off a light commerce raider - a merchant gone bad, a privateer
or a pirate. The Empire allows small merchant craft to mount these
things (though in a limited fashion) - it would not allow it, nor would
people do it if there weren't a need. Piracy, or the threat thereof, must
exist in the frontier and less-developed areas of the Imperium.

Note GDP's Ship Operator's Manual - several example Free Traders are
shown, with armament ranging from some sandcasters on a ship
operating near core to triple beam lasers, triple missile rack and a
salvaged military sensor suite on a frontier model (though the armed
to the teeth Trader was listed as being in debt from the upgrades and
taking some risky/shady cargoes to make up the losses). If the
frontiers aren't dangerous due to piracy, why are free trader captains
spending millions of credits on weapons and gunners?

Maybe you think they'll use the space combat weapons to scare off
the local revenue cutters. ;)

I think the existance of Mercenary Charters is very revealing of
Imperial policy towards member worlds. The Impies don't care if you
get invaded by your neighbor world (ref: Vilis takes over Tanoose aka
Garda-Vilis in the LBB Broadsword). They don't care if the countries
on your world tear themselves apart, to a point. They _do_ care that
the means to wage interstellar war - member world navies and
starmercs - are licensed, regulated, and ultimately under Imperial
control. (If you regulate something, you control it.)

This indicates to me that as long as the X-boats run, as long as an
outside power isn't involved, as long as powerful nobles and megacorps
aren't inconvenienced, the Imperium is willing to let it's member worlds
go hang. As long as the taxes get paid, and as long as the leadership
of the world pays homage to the Empire. 

The Ine Givar rebel group isn't mad about bad taste in Imperial decor,
or protesting against posh villas for Viscounts and above - the Ine Givar
and other subversive groups in the Imperium think the Empire is a
Bad Idea. It takes more than it gives, it fosters local rivalries for
it's own convenience, it takes away people's rights based on
decisions made a hundred parsecs away. Enough people thought
the Empire was based on Bad Ideas that it unravelled as fast as
news of Strephon's death could be reported. 

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 08:51:56 -0600
From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
Subject: Reflections

All:

I know that this is not Traveller related, but I thought those of you who
are ex-military like myself would like to receive this.  My friend, Neil
Morrison is the curator at the Fort Irwin Military Museum.  He is always
sending me items like this, especially this close to Memorial Day.

Also, for those of you who don't know, Fort Irwin was the site for the
"Atomic Annie" field artillery tests.

Eric

>From: Museum Curator <Museum@IRWIN.ARMY.MIL>
>To: "'holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov'" <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
>Subject: FW: Reflections
>Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 14:50:38 -0700
>Encoding: 139 TEXT
>
>
>
If you've ever seen the painting "Reflections" of the
Vietnam Wall in Washington, you've seen the man
standing there with his hand on the wall, mourning
his dead father or brother who was killed.  What he
doesn't see is the reflection from the other side
showing that relative with HIS hand on the wall,
touching the hand of his survivor.  That painting
inspired this story.

FROM THE OTHER SIDE
By Patrick Camunes

"There are so many things that are written about
the Wall but never anything of being on the other
side. I was inspired by the picture Reflections that I
use as wallpaper on my PC and a recent story,
Autumn Wall."

At first there was no place for us to go until
someone put up that Black Granite Wall.  Now,
everyday and night, my Brothers and my Sisters
wait to see the many people from places afar file in
front of this Wall.  Many stopping briefly and many
for hours and some that come on a regular basis. It
was hard at first, not that it's gotten any easier, but
it seems that many of the attitudes towards that war
that we were involved in have changed. I can only
pray that the ones on the other side have learned
something and more Walls as this one needn't be
built.

Several members of my unit and many that I did not
recognize have called me to the Wall by touching
my name that is engraved upon it.  The tears aren't
necessary but are hard even for me to hold back.
Don't feel guilty for not being with me, my Brothers.
This was my destiny as it is yours, to be on that
side of the Wall.

Touch the Wall, my Brothers, so that we can share
in the memories that we had.  I have learned to put
the bad memories aside and remember only the
pleasant times that we had together.  Tell our other
Brothers out there to come and visit me, not to say
Good Bye but to say Hello and be together again,
even for a short time and to ease that pain of loss
that we all share.

Today, an irresistible and loving call comes from
the Wall. As I approach I can see an elderly lady
and as I get closer I recognize her.......It's Momma!
As much as I have looked forward to this day, I
have also regretted it because I didn't know what
reaction I would have.

Next to her, I suddenly see my wife and
immediately think how hard it must of been for her
to come to this place and my mind floods with the
pleasant memories of 30 years past.  There's a
young man in a military uniform standing with his
arm around her......My God!......It's...it has to be my
son.  Look at him trying to be the man without a
tear in his eye.  I yearn to tell him how proud I am,
seeing him standing tall, straight and proud in his
uniform.

Momma comes closer and touches the Wall and I
feel the soft and gentle touch I had not felt in so
many years.  Dad has crossed to this side of the
Wall and through our touch, I try to convey to her
that Dad is doing fine and is no longer suffering or
feeling pain.  I see my wife's courage building as
she sees Momma touch the Wall and she
approaches and lays her hand on my waiting hand.
All the emotions, feelings and memories of three
decades past flash between our touch and I tell her
that it's all right.  Carry on with your life and don't
worry about me......I can see as I look into her eyes
that she hears and understands me and a big
burden has been lifted from her.

I watch as they lay flowers and other memories of
my past.  My lucky charm that was taken from me
and sent to her by my CO, a tattered and worn
teddy bear that I can barely remember having as I
grew up as a child and several medals that I had
earned and were presented to my wife.  One of them
is the Combat Infantry Badge that I am very proud
of and I notice that my son is also wearing this
medal.  I had earned mine in the jungles of
Vietnam and he had probably earned his in the
deserts of Iraq.

I can tell that they are preparing to leave and I try to
take a mental picture of them together, because I
don't know when I will see them again.  I wouldn't
blame them if they were not to return and can
only thank them that I was not forgotten.  My wife
and Momma near the Wall for one final touch and
so many years of indecision, fear and sorrow are
let go.  As they turn to leave I feel my tears that had
not flowed for so many years, form as if dew drops
on the other side of the Wall.

They slowly move away with only a glance over
their shoulder.  My son suddenly stops and slowly
returns.   He stands straight and proud in front of
me and snaps a salute.   Something makes him
move to the Wall and he puts his hand upon the
Wall and touches my tears that had formed on the
face of the Wall and I can tell that he senses my
presence there and the pride and the love that I
have for him.  He falls to his knees and the tears
flow from his eyes and I try my best to reassure him
that it's all right and the tears do not make him any
less of a man.

As he moves back wiping the tears from his eyes,
he silently mouths, God Bless you, Dad......   God
Bless, YOU, Son......  We WILL meet someday but
in the meanwhile, go on your way......  There is no
hurry.......There is no hurry at all.

As I see them walk off in the distance, I yell out to
THEM and EVERYONE there today, as loud as I
can,....THANKS FOR REMEMBERING and as
others on this side of the Wall join in, I notice that
the US Flag that so proudly flies in front of us
everyday, is flapping and standing proudly straight
out in the wind today....

THANK YOU ALL FOR REMEMBERING.
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 07:32:34 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Muldoon and Sculden

Paul D. Owensby wrote:
> 
> (with apologies to all involved<g>)
> 
> Long considered as more eccentric members of the Office of
> Calendar Compliance, Muldoon and Sculden have been recog-
> nized by their superiors as having that particular combination of
> talent and chemistry needed to make a productive and efficient
> team. Their penchant for solving the bizarre and unsolvable
> quickly caught the attention of the directors of The Ephemeris,
> the covert intelligence gathering branch of the OCC, and they
> were quickly brought into the ranks.

ROTFLMAO! These are great NPC's!  

Bruce Johnson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 07:55:39 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Selling a Starship

Brannon "Ben" Boren wrote:
> 
> Hi Folks,
> 
> Does anyone have experience with the economics of selling large ticket
> items that still have morgatges left on them? 

Yeah..it's called 'Real Estate' ;-)

>What kind of money should
> someone be able to get in the sale of a starship which still has payments
> remaining on it? What percentage of the money already paid in can you
> expect to recover?

The answer to the first is entirely up to what the market is...basically what
the seller gets is the difference between the selling price and the remaining
principle on the original mortgage, minus the usual fees. 

The second answer is none...since ships don't appreciate, only depreciate, you
never get any money back on them, sort of like cars. The best you can do is
break even.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #565
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, June 8 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 566



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Does anyone know?
Re: MegaTraveller Ship Design
Re: TAS/TNS
Re: Length of Days and Gravity?
Re: Does anyone know?
Re: Gravity
re: Jump exit points (Was: Piracy)
Re: Does anyone know?
Re: MegaTraveller Ship Design 
Re: MegaTraveller Ship Design
Re: Realistic approaches to prevention
V&V Availability
H.A.L. - It's Alive! IT'S ALIVE!!
Re: Does anybody know...
Fwd: Old TMLs and TMLers
Re: Pirates take the whole ship?
[none]
Re: Gravity
Re: Realistic approaches to prevention
Re: Realistic approaches to prevention

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 10:10:15 -0500 (CDT)
From: Alan Peery <peery@io.com>
Subject: Re: Does anyone know?

On Sun, 7 Jun 1998, David P. Summers wrote:

> What is the name of the Zhondani spy agency?  I can't find it in
> Alien Module 4.

You used to know who we were.  We made you forget.  


More seriously, I can't remember a Zho spy agency.  The closest thing
that comes to mind is the Tavarchedle, known in the Imperium as
"Thought Police". 

Alan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 06:52:03 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: MegaTraveller Ship Design

Jens.Maskus wrote:
> 
> It is a STAROFFICE 4.0 Spredsheet. (It is far from complete, but i think it is big and useful to
> me, if you want i can send it and answer questions ;-)
> 
> Jens
> 
> On Sat, 06 Jun 1998 17:05:03 -0700, Jim Cooper wrote:
> 
> >Jens.Maskus wrote:
> >>
> >> I'm still using MTDesign system with some modifications!
> >>
> >
> >Is that avaialable in DOS, Windows versions and fropm where?
> >Did anyone ever put the CT ship design into a computer program?
> >
> >Jim
> >
Sorry Jens, you have me at a dissadvantage. I use Windows 95, and MS
Office Pro which has excel spreadsheets and access data base. Past that,
I'm a computer illiterate. If you feel that STAROFFICE 4.0 Spreadsheet
would be compatible then by all means send it. I'll try to bring it up
,and then if you need help in finishing it maybe we can work together on
it. I'm game.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 06:35:52 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: TAS/TNS

William F. Hostman wrote:
> 
> Jim Asked
> >The eyes are failing me, but we need to know.

> TNS was folded into/superceded by SMART (MTJ 1-4). Smart is the library and
> news service of the Regency, at least as early as 1121.
> 
> William F. Hostman

 Thank you very much, that's what I needed to know.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 08:09:54 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Length of Days and Gravity?

Pearson Publishing wrote:
> 
> Does anyone have calculations for determining the lenght of a planets
> day/year/month etc?  And also for Gravity.
> 
from Bk 6

P=(d^3/m)^.5
P= period in years. Multiply by 365.25 to find period in days.
M= Mass in solar masses.
D=Distance in AU's. Multiply by 150 million to get kilometers. WTH uses
149.6 instead of 150.

D=(mp^2)^.33
as above.

WTH

P=Sqrt d^3/m   or P= Sgrt ([D/400,000]^3 x 793.64)/M
as above except in the latter case D=Distance in Kilometers.


Hope this helps.

Jim



Gravity in WTH is accomplished by die roll as follows:

1d6 for density. 1=low. 2-4=Average. 5-6= High
DM's -2 if in outer zone. Modified roll <1 =1

Low = .55:Average =1.0:High = 1.55

World Mass

M=K x(R/8)^3
M=mass in standard masses (Terra=1)
K=planet's density in in Earths(equivalencies .55,1.0 or 1.55)
R=UWP size digit (use 0.6 for size S)

from following table you get Gravity

diameter        low    average   high
1600(1)          .1      .15      0.3
3200(2)		 .15     .25       .5
4800(3)          .3      .4        .8
6400(4)          .35     .5       1.0
8000(5)          .45     .6       1.2
9600(6)          .55     .8       1.6
11200(7)         .6      .9       1.8
12800(8)         .7     1.0       2.0
14400(9)         .7     1.1       2.2
16000(10)        .8     1.3       2.6

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 11:31:26 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Does anyone know?

At 10:10 AM 6/8/98 -0500, you wrote:
>On Sun, 7 Jun 1998, David P. Summers wrote:
>
>> What is the name of the Zhondani spy agency?  I can't find it in
>> Alien Module 4.

Paranoia Press addressed this issue in their supplement, SORAG.  IIRC, that
was the extra-Consular Intelligence Agency.



Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:30:37 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Gravity

>How fast does gravity travel? Or better yet, If I were to cause a
>gravitational distrubance in some manner, how fast would someone who is
>"tuned into" the event be aware that it has occured?

In the real world, changes in gravity and gravity waves are generally
assumed to propogate at the speed of light, and there are all sorts of good
general relativity proofs that this is so. It remains a largely theoretical
issue as we haven't yet detected any gravity waves, of course.

>The reason I ask is that I was recently re-reading the Honor Harrington
>series and they employed something similar for early warning.  It cound not
>send a lot of information, but it could at least let you know realtime that
>something had caused it to trigger the signal.

Like many things in the Harrington books this isn't especially true or 
well-thought-out (why hadn't anyone thought of using grav drives to send 
signals before?)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:34:20 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Jump exit points (Was: Piracy)

>Since it is quite true that a planet moves quite a bit in two days
>the very fact that the rules do not mention any great variation in travel
>times regardless of the duration of the jump makes it likely that the jump
>exit point moves with the planet.

Or (somewhat more internally consistently) moves at the velocity the ship
had when it entered jump - so normally one will match velocities with the
destination world.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 09:53:10 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Does anyone know?

Wasn't the SORAG the spy agency? I seem to remember something about
there being a difference between the official meaning for the acronym and
the real meaning.

Alan Peery wrote:

> On Sun, 7 Jun 1998, David P. Summers wrote:
>
> > What is the name of the Zhondani spy agency?  I can't find it in
> > Alien Module 4.
>
> You used to know who we were.  We made you forget.
>
> More seriously, I can't remember a Zho spy agency.  The closest thing
> that comes to mind is the Tavarchedle, known in the Imperium as
> "Thought Police".
>
> Alan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 12:08:59 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: MegaTraveller Ship Design 

> Jens.Maskus wrote:
> > 
> > It is a STAROFFICE 4.0 Spredsheet. (It is far from complete, but i think it is big and useful to
> > me, if you want i can send it and answer questions ;-)

Send, send, send!!!!!!!!

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:56:28 +0100
From: "Buston, John" <john.buston@eds.com>
Subject: Re: MegaTraveller Ship Design

>... Would anyone be interested having a ship design competition
> for MT run? (Or any volunteers to run it?) ...

Would anyone who has run one of these things in the past like to provide
some idea of the effort involved? So that anyone who is thinking of
volunteering knows what they are getting into. For example:

How many entries did you get?

How long did it take to judge each entry?

How much background reading did you need to do?

What support tools did you need (spreadsheets, etc.)?

How much aggravation was there (flaming, coercion, etc.)?

and anything else you think might be useful to a prospective judge.

John

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 12:44:14 -0400
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: Realistic approaches to prevention

[Thus sayeth Hans]:
>
>We didn't miss that. The question becomes what is an acceptable low. We
>mentioned that ships are very expensive. You then suggested that maybe
>pirates only stole the cargo. Only trouble with that is that it seems
>extremely unlikely that any pirate could steal enough cargoes to pays
>his expenses.
>
>      Hans Rancke
>University of Copenhagen
>     rancke@diku.dk


What would be the expenses that a pirate (or a band of pirates) would
reasonably have?

Ship Payments:  Even though corsairs are manufactured, I don't think
 	there would be many pirates making payments...  :->
Life Support:  Only used when ship is in use.
Maintenance:  Time based?  Usage based?  Regular "merchant" costs?
Living Expenses:  What standard of living?
Intelligence Gathering:
Bribery:

What I'm asking, and maybe it was discussed some time ago, but how much
would it take to keep a Pirate band going?

Greg Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 13:20:44 -0400
From: Andy Slack <AndySlack@compuserve.com>
Subject: V&V Availability

Message text written by Bloo:
>And is there anyway to tell someone is Vilani just by looking at them?<

1. TD reckoned they had some distinctive clothing.
2. IIRC they were mostly redheads.
3. The smallest unit encountered is the mob. :)

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 12:37:33 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: H.A.L. - It's Alive! IT'S ALIVE!!

The following was taken a few minutes ago from ABC's news
site:

- -- quote --

M A D I S O N,   Wis.,   June 8 -
University of Wisconsin-Madison researchers are using the
genetic material DNA in an effort to develop new computers
that would offer an alternative to the traditional silicon chip. 
     Anne Condon, a UW-Madison computer scientist, is part
of the team studying DNA computers. 
     "I think there is always a need for faster and more
energy-efficient machines," Condon said. "DNA computing
offers one approach." 
     The chief attributes of DNA are its microscopic size and
powerful search function that can explore all possible answers
simultaneously. 
     The new machines could store information and process
large computational jobs at speeds faster than today's
supercomputers, researchers said. 
     Condon said it is too early to make predictions about when
the computers will be ready for commercial uses.

- -- end quote --

ObTrav: There was this travelling DNA-based computer whose
ship crash-landed on a planet into the field behind this farm,
you see, and the farmer's daughter...uh, never mind.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 13:40:25 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Does anybody know...

"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> asks:


>What is the name of the Zhodani spy agency?  I can't find it in
>Alien Module 4.
>

 From the Paranoia Press supplement, the name was at one time SORAG.
In typical spy-speak, the current existence of SORAG is denied.
 The Tavrchedl' are, as noted, the internal intelligence/mental floss
brigade. The civil branch takes care of the population of the
Consulate.  The military branch act as psychological warfare and
integration agents beyond the Consulate's borders and on worlds
within the Consulate labeled "Unabsorbed". A proposed cross-border
branch takes care of expatriot Zhodani who, despite adjustment, cannot
live happily within the Consulate. Such folks are pressed into one-time
service beyond the borders doing jobs that regular agents cannot. If
anyone remembers the short-lived TV show "Masquerade" from some 15 years
ago, that gives a good idea of how this branch operates. I HAD a name
for them somewhere...

>What is the name of the Imperial Intellegence Service?

 There are the JSB, INI, and IISS:
  The Ministry of Justice, Special Branch (JSB) handles "internal"
counter-espionage, counter-terrorism, and similar. If you nuke a
planet and the Navy can't catch you immediately, the JSB WILL find
you eventually.
  Imperial Naval Intelligence (INI) is a typical military intel
organization.  Extra-Imperial target identification, threat evaluation,
and other things...
  Imperial Interstellar Scout Service (IISS) is an almost accidental
intelligence service. They poke their noses into EVERYTHING, and (usually)
keep records. Rumors of an "Office of External Affairs, Special
Circumstances" persist but are unproven.

  An article in White Dwarf many years ago described the Imperial
Secret Service, but I don't recall seeing any official notice of them...

>
>Does anyone know why Margesi, in the Vilis subsector, is amber
>zoned?

 Hmmm. TL 6-7 Balkanized. Sitting on the border with the Sword Worlds.
Methinks this planet does not belong entirely to the Imperium, or that
Imperial membership is not accepted by all the population...

GypsyComet

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 13:42:12 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: Old TMLs and TMLers

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- --part0_897327732_boundary
Content-ID: <0_897327732@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

This bounced the first time...

- --part0_897327732_boundary
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From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Return-path: <GypsyComet@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com
Subject: Old TMLs and TMLers
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 02:22:40 EDT
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

When I joined the TML eight years and five addresses ago, we considered 40
messages A WEEK lively going. Sigh. For those of you with the CD and some
curiosity about some of us 'old farts', go looking for a few things:

  -the PBEM that ran adjacent to the TML until about 7 years ago.
  -The Metlay Alien Sex Papers
  -The Horde
  -The collected essays of Catie Helm.
  -the FIRST time Meson-wielding submarines came up...eight years ago.
  -the first FOUR times near-C rock lobbing was argued over (all well before
MPGN took up the hosting of this list, BTW).
  -the great ragings over the new Traveller coming out: TNE.

 And do a search for "Rob Dean" and dare to tell me that we now AS AN ENTIRE
EMAIL/WEB COMMUNITY, do anywhere near the volume of design work he did all by
himself. This is not to belittle the work of Scott "2G" Kellogg or several
other master shipwrights of the day...

 I admit to being a lurker most of the time, but what a time it was...

GypsyComet

PS: Before anyone goes asking ME for some of the above listed stuff, I was
wondering if the old sunbane or metolius archives were still available
somewhere aside from the CD project?  I haven't been able to log into those
ftp sites in ages.  The great vehicle repository at Cal Berkeley melted down
some years back as I recall, but I don't know the fate of the others...

- --part0_897327732_boundary--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 10:52:16 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Pirates take the whole ship?

...
>If they also have the description of the ship and what the crew
>obeserved about it before they were taken, they have a real
>start.  Then, if they catch them, they have that much more
>evidence.

  How is a visual description by a scared and preoccupied crewman
going to be _better_ than data gathered by a camera and other EMS gear?

...
>Yeah, but you can demand they remain in their cabins or you
>will shoot them.

  You're not going to round them up and disarm them? The typical PC
group would just love to be left alone, w/o the intruders even knowing
where they are.

>>>And now we are into thowing back and forth plans and counter plans.
...
>>>It won't really prove which is more likely, just who was better
>>>at dreaming up schemes.
...
>But it doesn't.  Any evidence collection scheme that is widely used
>will be known to the pirates and they will have a chance to come
>up with counter measures (which was the point of my other post).

  What do you do with techniques that aren't _practical to counter_?
I.E., EMS data being recorded or beamed off-ship? 

  As a side point, if a valid objection is raised in a debate and no
counter-point can be provided, then the possibility arises that a major
factor has been isolated.

...
>Which means the crime isn't totally without risk.  We already knew
>that since not every ship in the Imperium gets seized.  Piracy
>will indeed by a risky business.

  And the level of risk needs to be justified by pay-off, which a number
of peoples efforts suggest isn't likely taking cargo only. Have you by any
chance run the numbers and guesstimated the bottom line for a given type
and number of hits per year?

>>  Additionally, the ship itself is proof positive that a piracy occurred.
>>Taking (or hiding) the ship leaves the possibility open of a misjump or
>>other accident, hijacking, skipping bank payments, or at least question
>>as to precisely where the ship went missing.
>
>Which are other reason that a pirate might not take the ship.

  Clarification - _leaving the ship is proof that piracy occurred!_

...
>Yeah, my point is that there are incentives both ways.  Yes
>a ship is worth a lot.  However, pirates who take the ship
>re going to be much higher priorities for law enforcement.

  Yes, but if you take and sell the ship, you can retire. If the pigs
go hog-wild hunting other pirates. then it's hardly your concern, is it?
Besides, the thesis that piracy of starships will attract much less
interest if X ships are hauled over/shot up/robbed than if X ships
are stolen completely is substantially unproven, as the stimulus is an
attack on the Imperiums political structure.

>Different pirates will be willing to take different risks
>and different situations will produce different amounts
>of risk.  (For example, does the Imperium see all pirates
>as the same?  Or do they concentrate on those who take whole
>ships and kill people, leaving the others as an after thought?)

  Presumably the "bad" ones get treated harshly and with priority.
This doesn't mean that the others are left to roam as harmless.

...
>>  Actually, in loss-prevention/insurance there are additional concepts;
>>simply, a small truck isn't a large enough (absolute, not relative) value
>>to get really excited over, where the loss of MCr 50-100 requires a lot
>>more effort by responsible personnel.
>
>Well, car insurance is a big industry.  Big enough a scale for the
>reasoning you mention to take hold.  For the individualy the/...

  If you read the passage (and I'm not sure it's correct, FWIW), then
you'll note the reference to absolute value; your comment isn't valid.

...
>>  Oddly, ships have anti-hijack programs...
>
>Yes, they have _some_ security.  They already have computer
>so they stick some software on it.  The point is that you
>simply can't suppose that every measure you can think of
>will exist and hope to be realistic.

  Nor do I do so. Much more likely than a repeater (and 25% may be a
good assumption) is the dumping of EMS data to a police ship or facility
in the system.

...
>Well, most criminal who stick with crime do get caught.  That
>is realsitic.

  Therefore, career pirates mostly get caught, yes?

...
>No, the odds are that you will get caught.  Though you probably,
>like most criminals, don't _plan_ a 50 crime career.  You
>plan to take one cargo at a time and your greed keeps
>you pushing your luck.  As my uncle who is an FBI agent
>says, that is who criminals get caught, they are by nature
>greedy and they push their luck.

  So how many cargo hits does a career pirate (IYTU?) have to make
on average before being able to retire?

>To put it another way, if you are postulating a crime that
>exists, but is not rampant, there has to be _some_ risk.
>Otherwise every Tom, Dick, and Harry who has access to an
>armed ship will turn to piracy.

  Good. Now what are the risks, and why do they occur? The point is 
that some of us think that rationally (although not neccessarily
played that way in our own TU's) piracy would be very rare.

...
>>  Interesting. Why is a (unreliable) visual report of a suited boarder or
>>ship typically more useful than the same or greater info recorded by more
>>reliable and capable sensor systems?
>
>Again, you are simply assuming that all visual reports are unreliable.
>Also, I am assuming that _both_ are useful.

  Unless one is a capable, trained observer, all visual reports _are_
unreliable. Ask a cop. I can think of som eawfully interesting things
that can be done with certain types of EMS data, but "it was a free
trader with red go-fasta stripes" isn't much use most times.

  I'm assuming that cameras don't panic, have hang-overs, or have memory
retention problems until interfered with.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 12:46:43 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: [none]

Just saw this one on abc.com. Combine it with my last post
and things could get a l-i-i-ttle too weird...

- -- quote --

Virtual Girls and Digital Dates
By Michael J. Martinez
ABCNEWS.com

June 5 - She won't cook for you, you can't take her out on
the town, and, in fact, you can't take her off of your computer.
But if you don't pay enough attention to her and treat her
right, she'll get very angry. She might even leave you. 
     Her name is Rachel, she's from Italy and she's a Virtual
Girl. That's right: all software, no hardware. She's the latest
in computerized, interactive "girlfriends" - graphically-
enhanced programs designed to give users the experience
of having a girlfriend without the hassle. 
     Peruzzo Informatica, the Italian software company that
created Virtual Girl, describes it as a "Tamagotchi for adults"
after the Japanese virtual pet that became a worldwide fad. It
has been doing well in Europe and is expected to make its
way across the Atlantic soon. 
     Company president Alessandro Peruzzo says his program
is at worst a harmless diversion, and at best a tool for men to
learn how to improve their rapport with women. "It's a
simulator," he says. "You can test how you treat a woman, to
see if you're doing enough, or even too much."

- -- end quote --

ObTrav: I'm not going there...I'm *not*...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 10:02:28 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Gravity

Sun, 07 Jun 1998 23:17:29 -0400, Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
>How fast does gravity travel? Or better yet, If I were to cause a
>gravitational distrubance in some manner, how fast would someone who is
>"tuned into" the event be aware that it has occured?

The speed of light.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 10:35:43 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Realistic approaches to prevention

Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:41:33 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>In a lot of the disucussion on this list, a lot of posts attempt to show
>>that some form of undesirable human behavoir is impossible by describing
>>how it would be stopped. The presumption seems to be that if nobody can
>>come up with a way around it, then it can be presumed to be impossible.
>>I find this unrealistic.

>It's also inexact. The idea that Steven, Ian, and I have been trying to
>get across is that if something becomes so expensive that you can't turn
>a profit doing it, it may be presumed to whither and die.

I wasn't refering to that.  I was refering to the approach I mention
above which I wanted to separate from the piracy debate and address.

>>The lesson I take from history is that the odds of people finding a way
>>around any such plan are high enough that you are better off figuring it
>>is going to happen.

>Yet there are historical criminal activities that have completely disappeared
>in certain specific areas of the world. I believe that mugging is way down
>inside police stations, for example. (This isn't quite as facecious as it
>may appear; one the main parts of my belief is based on the fact that the
>amount of space that needs to be patrolled is effectively very small and just
>happens to be where patrol ships are based).

Leaving aside the fact that not everyone agrees that 2.7e17 cubic
kilometers of space (that 268 quadrillion cubit km, right?) is like
the space inside a police station.  My point was to address one
specific approach taken to trying to trying to prove something doesn't
exist, beyond just whether piracy is possible.  I don't claim that
this was the only approach to disproving piracy, or any specific
aspect of it (nor was piracy the only issue this line of arguement
was used for), or that showing the problem with this approach will
resolve the piracy debate.  I do feel that addressing this
can help keep debates to more realistic territory.

This is not intended to counter any specific recent arguements.
Instead, it is a response to a general approach that I see pop
up now and again over a long period of time.

[Stuff about piracy delelted.]


____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 10:35:43 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Realistic approaches to prevention

Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:41:33 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>In a lot of the disucussion on this list, a lot of posts attempt to show
>>that some form of undesirable human behavoir is impossible by describing
>>how it would be stopped. The presumption seems to be that if nobody can
>>come up with a way around it, then it can be presumed to be impossible.
>>I find this unrealistic.

>It's also inexact. The idea that Steven, Ian, and I have been trying to
>get across is that if something becomes so expensive that you can't turn
>a profit doing it, it may be presumed to whither and die.

I wasn't refering to that.  I was refering to the approach I mention
above which I wanted to separate from the piracy debate and address.

>>The lesson I take from history is that the odds of people finding a way
>>around any such plan are high enough that you are better off figuring it
>>is going to happen.

>Yet there are historical criminal activities that have completely disappeared
>in certain specific areas of the world. I believe that mugging is way down
>inside police stations, for example. (This isn't quite as facecious as it
>may appear; one the main parts of my belief is based on the fact that the
>amount of space that needs to be patrolled is effectively very small and just
>happens to be where patrol ships are based).

Leaving aside the fact that not everyone agrees that 2.7e17 cubic
kilometers of space (that 268 quadrillion cubit km, right?) is like
the space inside a police station.  My point was to address one
specific approach taken to trying to trying to prove something doesn't
exist, beyond just whether piracy is possible.  I don't claim that
this was the only approach to disproving piracy, or any specific
aspect of it (nor was piracy the only issue this line of arguement
was used for), or that showing the problem with this approach will
resolve the piracy debate.  I do feel that addressing this
can help keep debates to more realistic territory.

This is not intended to counter any specific recent arguements.
Instead, it is a response to a general approach that I see pop
up now and again over a long period of time.

[Stuff about piracy delelted.]


____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #566
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, June 8 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 567



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Jump exit points (Was: Piracy)
Re: Realistic approaches to prevention
Re: Does anyone know...
Starport Construction Costs, v2
Starport Costs
Re: H.A.L. - It's Alive! IT'S ALIVE!!
Starport Costs
re: Intel agencies
re: Jump exit points (Was: Piracy)
Re: Fwd: Old TMLs and TMLers
Re: Old TMLs and TMLers
Re: MegaTraveller Ship Design
Re: Selling a Starship
Campaign Builders' Handbook
Does anybody know?
Re: Fwd: Old TMLs and TMLers
SORAG (was "Does anyone know?")
Re: Old TMLs and TMLers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 10:32:18 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump exit points (Was: Piracy)

Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:52:13 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>A jump takes 6-8 days.  Right.
>>The planet and system is moving how fast?  Fast enough.  Some one else can
>>do the math...

>Not to say that you can't have things working that way in YTU if it works
>for you, but the rules strongly imply that they don't work like that in
>the OTU. Since it is quite true that a planet moves quite a bit in two days
>the very fact that the rules do not mention any great variation in travel
>times regardless of the duration of the jump makes it likely that the jump
>exit point moves with the planet.

My take on the rules it that it seems clear that this issue has not
been considered, not that it was decided that the exit point moves
with the planet.  In my book this goes under things not constrained
by canon.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:08:32 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Realistic approaches to prevention

(sigh)  Time to get involved again...


>What would be the expenses that a pirate (or a band of pirates) would
>reasonably have?
>
>Ship Payments:  Even though corsairs are manufactured, I don't think
> there would be many pirates making payments...  :->


You are probably right, they won't be able to get them on payments.  Which
makes the up-front cost pretty high!  Unless they are able to take a ship
with suitable armament, they will have to buy one.  Without the credentials
to get a loan, they will have to cough up the credit.

However, a band may have one or two 'legitimate' ships or have a 'front'
through which they channel their ill-gotten goods that does use 'clean'
ships and through which they may make payments.

>Life Support:  Only used when ship is in use.


Unless they have a base with a habitable atmosphere, that would be 100% of
the time.

>Maintenance:  Time based?  Usage based?  Regular "merchant" costs?


Again, unless they have a base or a ship tender, this can be tricky.  Of
course, they could always try for Vargr or Sword World space and get
maintenance done here.

Besides regular maintenance, however, there will also be combat repairs that
will need to be performed (and paid for.)

>Living Expenses:  What standard of living?


Pretty damn high when they have money, pretty miserable the rest of the
time.  There is also the issue of where pirates go to have fun, and how they
get there without getting caught.

>Intelligence Gathering:
>Bribery:


Absolutely essential.  A good band will have people in a number of starports
to funnel traffic data to them.  Hopefully, they will be able to get someone
into a starport who will have access to the ship's registry for that
subsector and be able to erase or alter the ship's data for the ships the
band may capture.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 13:12:53 -0500
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Re: Does anyone know...

>What is the name of the Imperial Intellegence Service?

Well,  even though I've heard some people dispute its canon-ity, the
Imperial Regency Intelligence Service (IRIS) is also an impressive
intelligence agency. It was detailed in two back-to-back Challenge articles
(I don't remember which ones).

IRIS is also mentioned several times in Survival Margin.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+  |
|       vi+ da+                                                      |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                           |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: 08 Jun 1998 14:16 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Starport Construction Costs, v2

Gentle Travellerfolk,

Let me know what you think of this guesstimate of downport
construction costs.

Rob
IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+

- --

Downport Construction Costs (Version 2)

What are some of the costs involved in building a downport?
Here is a partial list of things you might put into a starport,
and what they might cost.

I. LANDING STRIPS

Ships have to land!  There are two ways to land a starship:
some are airframe, which means they can use a runway, while
the rest must stick to vertical thrust to slowly set themselves
down onto pads.

Imperial-standard landing strips have both built-in: a 5km
long strip for airframe landings, ending in a 1km diameter
circular landing pad.  These strips are also used for airframe
take-off.  The cost runs from KCr10 per kilometer.

Landing facilities may also have an attached beacon, perhaps
placed midway along the strip or near other outbuldings.  A beacon
may include sensors and comm equipment, and may have its own
power plant.  It may cost from MCr5 up.

II. PARKBAYS

Ships are moved via maglev rail to parkbays, which are circular
platforms with 11 bays, each of which can hold a ship of up to
1000 tons.  Maglev rail enters the parkbay and runs in a circle
around the inside, with a branch into each bay.  In the center is a
single shielded vertical liftoff platform (also connected to
the maglev system).

One parkbay costs MCr100.  A group of 6 parkbays, laid out in a
hexagonal pattern and joined by maglev rail, costs MCr700.

III. FUEL

Fuel is provided in A, B, C, and D class ports.  Refueling stations
may have depots, refineries, and tankers.

A. FUEL DEPOTS

Fuel depots can be as simple as huge holding tanks, and may have
mechanical hookups or pumps to refuel ships with.  Depots may
cost from Cr1000 per ton.

B. FUEL REFINERIES

Fuel refineries are cousins to the shipboard fuel refineries, and
are used to refine fuel on the spot for ships requiring it.
Refineries may cost from MCr1 per ton.

C. FUEL TANKERS

Tankers, which may be simply shuttles or modular cutters, are 
ships outfitted to carry fuel, and may or may not have refineries
on-board to provide refined fuel for the starport holding tanks.
Tankers run at the going price of spaceships; for example, the
price may be around MCr4 per ton of fuel the tanker can carry.

IV. SHIPYARD

A shipyard is necessary for the construction and maintenance of
spaceships and starships.  Shipyards can be quite large -- their
size may depend on the amount of trade going through a system,
or the size of the local population, or even the strategic
importance of the system's location.

A normal repair yard may cost around KCr25 per ton of ship 
serviceable.

A repair yard capable of ship overhaul (for example, for a ship's
annual maintenance) may cost KCr200 per ton of ship serviceable.

A shipyard capable of producing spaceships (that is, non-jump
capable ships) may cost MCr5 per ton of ship capacity.

Lastly, a shipyard which can build jump-capable starships may
cost MCr6+ per ton of ship capacity.

Warehouses (with environmental controls, security systems, heavy
shielding, &tc) for storing ship parts and construction equipment
may cost KCr1 per displacement ton.

V. BASES

There are three kinds of bases here: Scout way stations, Scout
bases, and Naval bases.

A. SCOUT WAY STATIONS

Way stations are smaller versions of the Scout base.  They
might use existing landing facilities; they have some equipment
and buildings, and will almost certainly have their own fuel.  
Such a base may cost MCr50.

B. SCOUT BASES

Scout bases have refueling equipment, a parkbay, some service 
equipment and warehousing, and administration offices.  Such a 
base may cost MCr200.

C. NAVAL BASES

Naval bases are huge affairs, often larger than the local starport
itself.  A naval base may have an airstrip and a hexlet of 6
parkbays all to itself, as well as depots, refineries, and service
centers.  The naval bases may cost from BCr100.

V. TERMINAL

The terminal itself is the exoskeleton of the starport, and consists
of the framework around which the above components may be placed.

A. MAGLEV NETWORK

The ship maglev rail network connects the airstrips, parkbays, and
shipyards.  Likewise, the human maglev rail network comprises the
transport between all these points for passengers, crew, military,
and vendors.  The maglev network may cost from MCr10 up to MCr100+.

B. CONTROL TOWER

The control tower contains the main body of comm equipment and
traffic control logic, as well as the administrative offices.
The Tower may cost from MCr100+.

C. CONCOURSE

The concourse comprises all passenger, crew, and vendor facilities,
including lounges, shops, and ticketing, plus all of their information 
management systems.  Concourses cost from MCr10+.

D. OFFICE SPACE

The brokerage quality available depends on the starport class; so, then,
do the brokerage facilities (and other offices) depend on the starport 
class.  As the starport class improves, so does the size and cost
of building offices there:

Starport Class		Facilities Cost
A			KCr80/ton
B			KCr40/ton
C			KCr20/ton
D			KCr10/ton

This might be the cost of allocation rather than actual construction...
i.e. the buildings are built, but the floors are empty.

------------------------------

Date: 08 Jun 1998 14:18 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Starport Costs

Oh yes, by the way...

The numbers in Pocket Empires lean toward very expensive starports:

Starport Class		Cost to Build
A			TCr15
B			TCr3.5
C			BCr600
D			BCr6
E			"free" ( << BCr6 )

All righty then, what causes a class D starport to cost 6 billion
credits?  That's quite a runway.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 14:24:25 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: H.A.L. - It's Alive! IT'S ALIVE!!

At 12:37 PM 6/8/98 -0500, you wrote:
>The following was taken a few minutes ago from ABC's news
>site:
>
>-- quote --
>
>M A D I S O N,   Wis.,   June 8 -
>University of Wisconsin-Madison researchers are using the
>genetic material DNA in an effort to develop new computers
>that would offer an alternative to the traditional silicon chip. 
<<SNIP
>     Condon said it is too early to make predictions about when
>the computers will be ready for commercial uses.
>
>-- end quote --
>
>ObTrav: There was this travelling DNA-based computer whose
>ship crash-landed on a planet into the field behind this farm,
>you see, and the farmer's daughter...uh, never mind.

You might be on the mark, except the planet is Cymbeline (sp?) and it was a
Terran warship during the Interstellar Wars...

Later,



Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: 08 Jun 1998 14:20 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Starport Costs

Ah, I may have an answer to my own question.
The resulting starports are USEFUL to a Pocket Empire.
This discounts small bases.

Rob


>The numbers in Pocket Empires lean toward very expensive starports:
>
>Starport Class		Cost to Build
>A			TCr15
>B			TCr3.5
>C			BCr600
>D			BCr6
>E			"free" ( << BCr6 )
>
>All righty then, what causes a class D starport to cost 6 billion
>credits?  That's quite a runway.
                         

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:25:24 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Intel agencies

>  Imperial Interstellar Scout Service (IISS) is an almost accidental
>intelligence service. They poke their noses into EVERYTHING, and (usually)
>keep records. Rumors of an "Office of External Affairs, Special
>Circumstances" persist but are unproven.

I also remember hearing about an IISS 
"Covert Survey Bureau" - presumably one who's official purpose is surveying
uncontacted Red Zone worlds, but with a secondary general intelligence 
purpose - but I don't recall whether this was official. I would say that
intelligence gathering *has* to be a major reason why the IISS lends people
Scout/Couriers - producing a huge fleet of ships with good sensor suites
wandering in and out of the borders of the Imperium; easy to hide a few
real spies among the herd.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:24:54 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: re: Jump exit points (Was: Piracy)

Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:34:20 -0700, bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)

>>Since it is quite true that a planet moves quite a bit in two days
>>the very fact that the rules do not mention any great variation in travel
>>times regardless of the duration of the jump makes it likely that the jump
>>exit point moves with the planet.

>Or (somewhat more internally consistently) moves at the velocity the ship
>had when it entered jump

I agree.

> - so normally one will match velocities with the
>destination world.

My take is that the most efficient thing to do is to match 1/2
of the velocity difference between the systems before you jump
and 1/2 of it later.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 11:57:58 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Old TMLs and TMLers

GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:

> PS: Before anyone goes asking ME for some of the above listed stuff, I was
> wondering if the old sunbane or metolius archives were still available
> somewhere aside from the CD project?  I haven't been able to log into those
> ftp sites in ages.  The great vehicle repository at Cal Berkeley melted down
> some years back as I recall, but I don't know the fate of the others...

IIRC a lot of the sunbane stuff got moved to ftp.mpgn.com  The metolius
stuff, I don't know, In fact I don't think I ever recall hearing of that
archive...

The ftp.nau.edu stuff has bounced around, last known address I know of
was/is mac9.ucc.nau.edu but that's not responding right now.


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 19:31:52 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Old TMLs and TMLers

>And do a search for "Rob Dean"
As a similarly aged oldtimer there is also an enduring fondness for the
copious design work that R.S.Dean brought to the list. I actually have all
his work webified, but I don't think it is currently on-line. I can send it
on to you, or probably add it to the CORE site.
(E-mail me privately.)

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 19:29:16 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: MegaTraveller Ship Design

John Buston asks several questions about the time required to run a
MegaTraveller Ship design thing.

Well, as the original proposer of the idea I've given it some thought since
I'll probably do it if no one else volunteers.

The setup I would imagine would be based on a web-site with announcements
to the list. The web site would contain:
Competition related:
* The current topic, constraints, and deadline
* Past topics, the entries, and the winners
Design related:
* A listing of the errata to be used for the ship design sequences
* Clarifications of existing rules and/or terms for purposes of the
competition (which stateroom to be used for passengers/crew, whether to
environ the fuel tanks, etc)
* How designs are generally rated, if not part of the constraints or topic
Tooling:
* Links to other ship design pages
* Uploads (or links to uploads) of ship design tools (spreadsheets, mainly)

Announcements to the list would be:
* Initial topic, constraint and deadline announcment for each competition
* A reminder two days before deadline
* The announced winners

Cheers,
Jo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:36:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brannon Boren <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Selling a Starship

> >What kind of money should
> > someone be able to get in the sale of a starship which still has payments
> > remaining on it? What percentage of the money already paid in can you
> > expect to recover?
> 
> The answer to the first is entirely up to what the market is...basically what
> the seller gets is the difference between the selling price and the remaining
> principle on the original mortgage, minus the usual fees. 

Yes, but since the issue of principal and interest is glossed over in the
starship payment plans, this doesn't help.  Technically, you could never
sell a starship until you had made 20 years of payments on it, because
only after 20 years are you dpwn to paying only the ship's original price.
The fact is that if you want to pay off your house early, you pay nowhere
near as much as if you pay it off over the whole length of the mortgage.
So if you pay off your ship early, do you only pay off the principal and
not the interest?  How much is each?

So for instance, you have a MCr40 ship, and have made 10 years of payments
on it.  If you pay off over 40 years, you will have paid MCr 80 for the
ship.  But if you wanted to pay it off - ineffect someone else is taking
out a loan, giving you the money to pay off your ship, then they are
paying that loan back to their own bank with interest.

So the question is how much of the MCr 40 have you paid off after 10
years, 20 years, etc.?  Does someone have an amortization program that
they might run these numbers through and figure out what the interest rate
is on a loan which results in paying exactly twice the loan amount back
over 40 years?
 
> The second answer is none...since ships don't appreciate, only depreciate, you
> never get any money back on them, sort of like cars. The best you can do is
> break even.

What about a ship which you aquire as a Mustering benefit. It already has
10 or 20 years of payments made on it if you rolled well. How much can you
sell this ship for, considering that the buyer will have 10 or 20 years
less payments than if he bought it new?

Ben 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 15:42:31 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Campaign Builders' Handbook

At 03:22 AM 2/7/98 -0500, Bloo wrote:
>
>P.S.  This as well as several other threads on TML have led me to the
>conclusion that what we all really, really want to have/write/use/etc. is a
>comprehensive book about running instellar campaigns against a very large
>backdrop of both time and space.  A Campaign Builders Handbook if you will.
>Or perhaps Universe Engineer's Manual.
>Some topics: language divergence over time and in response to events, the ebb
>and flow of tech levels, the size and duration of various empires throughout
>known time/space (in snazzy-color-coded graphics :-), how to quickly react to
>a century long / millemium long nap in the cold coffin for your PCs without
>rewriting the whole universe (and if they're revived in a lower TL
>environment, how fast can they jumpstart the TL they find themselves in,
>e.g., imagine the impact of a TL17 Genius Physicist awoken from emergency low
>birth by Cleon I at the birth of his Imperium - oh wait a sec, that's how he
>got Fusion Plus :-), etc., etc.  Something to think about.
>

Things have been kinda dead on the list (besides the twice-annual piracy
debate, I mean).  I found this comment of Bloo's in my archives  - does
anyone want to bite?

That is, what resources does anyone know of on the Web pertaining to the
art and science of campaign building?  I have copies of Analog articles on
psychohistory, for instance, but those are long out of print, and may have
been superceded.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:59:53 -0400
From: Andy Slack <AndySlack@compuserve.com>
Subject: Does anybody know?

Message text written by INTERNET:traveller@mpgn.com
>>What is the name of the Imperial Intellegence Service?<

If there were such a thing as the Covert Survey Bureau I
would mention it. But of course there isn't. And if there was
it wouldn't be safe to talk about it. Errrm... let's talk about
pirates instead...

<ducks for cover>

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 16:47:43 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Old TMLs and TMLers

GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:

>   -The Metlay Alien Sex Papers

Damn, I missed those.

>   -The collected essays of Catie Helm.

NOOoooo...  Not Catie.....

>   -the first FOUR times near-C rock lobbing was argued over (all well before
> MPGN took up the hosting of this list, BTW).

> PS: Before anyone goes asking ME for some of the above listed stuff, I was
> wondering if the old sunbane or metolius archives were still available
> somewhere aside from the CD project?  I haven't been able to log into those
> ftp sites in ages.  The great vehicle repository at Cal Berkeley melted down
> some years back as I recall, but I don't know the fate of the others...

 Seems we've lost a bit in the past few years.

- --
Evyn,
Warleader of the Clan MacDude
 Fortalice Desertum
 (Home of the ClusterNuke)
 AD. 1998

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 16:46:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: SORAG (was "Does anyone know?")

I should have chimed in with this last week, but I've be doing battle
with a particularly nasty strain of Virushi-resistant virus. :^)

    SORAG:
    
    "The name is an acronym for Study and Operations Recording
    Activities Group.  The purpose of SORAG is to observe the
    progress of emerging interstellar societies using overt and
    passive means.'"
    
    "The previous statement, gleaned from any number of official
    publications of the Zhodani Consulate is almost completely
    false.
    
    SORAG (Scientific Operations Research and Administration
    Group) is an intelligence and counter-intelligence service....
    It's purpose is to infiltrate and perform surveillance on
    various interstellar governments and military services...."
    
    --SORAG Handbook of Organization and Equipment 1
    (Paranoia Press, 165-1107).

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting *  shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
       "Where am I... and what am I doing in this handbasket?"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 16:56:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Old TMLs and TMLers

> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 13:42:12 EDT
> From: GypsyComet@aol.com
> Subject: Fwd: Old TMLs and TMLers
> 
> When I joined the TML eight years and five addresses ago, we considered 40
> messages A WEEK lively going. Sigh. For those of you with the CD and some
> curiosity about some of us 'old farts', go looking for a few things:
> 
>   -the PBEM that ran adjacent to the TML until about 7 years ago.

The TML PBeM is still alive (but sluggish of late.)  About 2/3s of the
original players are still involved, and you can catch up on the whole
mess by checking: http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller.  BTW, we are currently
not open to new players, but hope to be in the future.  Also, BTW, Metlay
and I took over GM'ing the game (with Richard Johnson's blessing) after
Richard decided to throw in the towel.

>   -The Metlay Alien Sex Papers

Still got that one archived.

>   -The Horde
>   -The collected essays of Catie Helm.
>   -the FIRST time Meson-wielding submarines came up...eight years ago.
>   -the first FOUR times near-C rock lobbing was argued over (all well
>    before MPGN took up the hosting of this list, BTW).
>   -the great ragings over the new Traveller coming out: TNE.
> 
> And do a search for "Rob Dean" and dare to tell me that we now AS AN
> ENTIRE EMAIL/WEB COMMUNITY, do anywhere near the volume of design work
> he did all by himself. This is not to belittle the work of Scott "2G"
> Kellogg or several other master shipwrights of the day...

I still have most of the Dean (and Kellogg, and Bertil Jonell) MT
ship designs archived.

> PS: Before anyone goes asking ME for some of the above listed stuff, I was
> wondering if the old sunbane or metolius archives were still available
> somewhere aside from the CD project?  I haven't been able to log into those
> ftp sites in ages.  The great vehicle repository at Cal Berkeley melted down
> some years back as I recall, but I don't know the fate of the others...

The Sunbane (at U. of Western Ontario, Waterloo, CA) and Metolius
(Tektronix, Beaverton, OR) archives are both toast.  They were wiped
by their respective owners years ago.

However...

Dan Corrin (the admin for Sunbane back then) is still in the PBeM and
has promised to get me the *entire* Sunbane archive on tape (which he
backed up before leaving UWO.)  Don't know how soon (or even *if*) this
will take place, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting *  shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
       "Where am I... and what am I doing in this handbasket?"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #567
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Tuesday, June 9 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 568



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Piracy - Imperial policies
"Letter of Marque" - UPDATE
Re: Campaign Builders' Handbook
Re: Jump exit points (Was: Piracy)
Re: Selling a Starship
Pre-contact Terra
Re: 
Re: Campaign Builders' Handbook
Re: The Lure of Reward Money...
Re: Gravity
Re: 
Re: Starport Costs
Images
Re: Pre-contact Terra
Re: 
Re: Selling a Starship
Re: Hijacking summation?
Lightbulbs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 20:06:16 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Piracy - Imperial policies

That's why I always thought that if that idiot Dulinor had bothered to get
some support for his idea (which appeals to me) of an Imperium that gave a
rats ass about the member planets, instead of just walking in the front door
and shooting Strephon; he might have had more support outside of Ileish.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 17:22:19 -0600
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: "Letter of Marque" - UPDATE

I just wanted to post an update regarding the "Letter of Marque" project.

Andrew is signing autographs as I type (well - he has them and is working on
them) -  I expect them back from him later this week. 

Mark Cook (a fellow TML'er) of Shoestring Graphics is working on the five
sets of deckplans for the insert. Due to his having just recovered from a
bad bout 
of the flu I have decided to push back the "take the manuscript/insert to
the printers" date to June 20th. This will give Mark enough time to do the
deckplans justice and I feel is well worth the slight delay.

Since the date has been pushed back from the 10th to the 20th,  this should
give anyone who wants to make a late minute order enough additional time to
get their payment in (I have 14 copies left at present), but please be
prompt if you do intend to place an order.

Again, my address is:

Paul Sanders
1316 W. 2nd Ave.
Apache Junction, AZ 85220
USA

I will have everyones order in the mail by June 30th at the latest (my
departure date for Europe has been bumped up by a month, I am now leaving on
July 7th). I will post a final update the day I mail the last package.

Ok, I think that covers nearly everything I needed to say.

My thanks to everyone who has ordered a copy of LOM and made this project a
reality!

Paul Sanders
timmon@primenet.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 17:28:16 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Campaign Builders' Handbook

Christopher Thrash wrote:
> 

> anyone want to bite?
> 
> That is, what resources does anyone know of on the Web pertaining to the
> art and science of campaign building?  I have copies of Analog articles on
> psychohistory, for instance, but those are long out of print, and may have
> been superceded.

Sure, I'll bite.  We should have several resources at our disposal but
can we get there co-operation is the question. The number 1 and 2 best
suggestion that come to mind would be MM and LW. But I know just from
reading some of the mail that others have some pretty good, strong ideas
that could be included. So where do we go from here???

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 17:48:25 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Jump exit points (Was: Piracy)

David P. Summers wrote:

> My take on the rules it that it seems clear that this issue has not
> been considered, not that it was decided that the exit point moves
> with the planet.  In my book this goes under things not constrained
> by canon.
 I tend to disagree with this. I'm not sure, but I think the analogy was
made from a comparison of how the US moon flight was accomplished, ie
the mission took off travelling counter clockwise around earth, and when
the time was deemed right (by NASA calculations) the engines were fired
up enough to project the mission enroute. When it reached its objective
it took up an opposite rotation (clockwise) around the moon. While the
command module remained in orbit, the lander landed and when their work
was accomplished then rejoined the command module and following a
similar routine as above plotted and initiated the return trip. 
The general principle is shown in MT- ref's companion p23 for sure and
IIRC there is at least one other reference. This indicates to me that
the problem was considered, albeit maybe not to int's fullest from the
data then know, but it would sure make sense to me that both
interstellar and interplnetary travel would be other than a hap-hazard
guesstimate.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 20:03:35 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Selling a Starship

>Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:36:27 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Brannon Boren <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
>Subject: Re: Selling a Starship
>
>So the question is how much of the MCr 40 have you paid off after 10
>years, 20 years, etc.?  Does someone have an amortization program that
>they might run these numbers through and figure out what the interest rate
>is on a loan which results in paying exactly twice the loan amount back
>over 40 years?
> 

I adapted this from a table of standard amortization schedules, based on
the 2.3% APR implied in the starship financing rules.  I've rounded a bit
(<2%) to make the numbers nicer, but that's the only change:

"Over time, your ownership in the ship increases as the 
debt owed the bank decreases:

Years      Debt Owed     Ownership
  0           80%           20%
 10           66%           34%
 20           50%           50%
 30           25%           75%
 40            0%          100%"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 20:16:04 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Pre-contact Terra

Does anyone know of references discussing the state of Terra from the
present to first contact with the Vilani (~AD2096)?  I expect that this was
necessarily left vague, to avoid becoming outdated too soon, but I'd like
to catalog what has been said.

I have the Library Data supplements, the non-discussion in JTAS #20 in
Loren Wiseman's Prologue article, the chronologies in Solomani Rim and TCS,
and the MT Imperial Encyclopedia (which seems to rehash the Library Data).

References that I suspect may be relevant that I do not have are Alien
Module 6: Solomani, and the Imperium boardgame. 

Thanks, all.

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 20:40:33 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: 

At 12:46 pm 6/8/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Just saw this one on abc.com. Combine it with my last post
>and things could get a l-i-i-ttle too weird...

	/* snip */

>     Peruzzo Informatica, the Italian software company that
>created Virtual Girl, describes it as a "Tamagotchi for adults"
>after the Japanese virtual pet that became a worldwide fad. It
>has been doing well in Europe and is expected to make its
>way across the Atlantic soon. 
>     Company president Alessandro Peruzzo says his program
>is at worst a harmless diversion, and at best a tool for men to
>learn how to improve their rapport with women. "It's a
>simulator," he says. "You can test how you treat a woman, to
>see if you're doing enough, or even too much."
>
>-- end quote --
>
>ObTrav: I'm not going there...I'm *not*...

	Y'know, Dave Barry was right--as soon as virtual women are invented,
the species is doomed. Unless cloning can pick up the slack, then
only the male half of the species is doomed ...

ObTrav: Recontact adventure--a planet populated only by women, who
reproduce by artificial means and ensure that no embryo with a "Y"
chromosome is created ... how will they react to a crew composed of
James Kirk and a few other suchlikes ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 20:46:36 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Campaign Builders' Handbook

At 03:42 pm 6/8/98 -0600, you wrote:
>That is, what resources does anyone know of on the Web pertaining to
the
>art and science of campaign building?  I have copies of Analog
articles on
>psychohistory, for instance, but those are long out of print, and
may have
>been superceded.


	http://www.compulink.co.uk/~vicarage/planets/ is a good resource for
world creation; from the intro: "These pages are on the borderline
between hard Science Fiction and genuine science. In the hard SF
tradition, everything here is scientifically rigorous, except when it
is more fun to bend the rules"
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 98 21:11:32 -0500
From: eris@pen.net
Subject: Re: The Lure of Reward Money...

On 06/08/98 at 12:25 AM,  Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com> said:

>The fireworks begin when the types of people who scann the arrival
>boards see their ship name.

>I'd probably have them lose the ship and be on the run on a planet
>where everyone thinks they're dangerous space-criminals.

>In fact, I think that's what I will do.  Now I just have to decide
>who's going to set them up for this...

It sounds like a fine plan, just be sure the MCV has a good reason for
doing this to the HA's. IOW, what's in it for the MCV? Does he want
their ship? Is it revenge for something they did to him, someone he
cares about, or his organization in the past? 

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 98 21:20:36 -0500
From: eris@pen.net
Subject: Re: Gravity

On 06/08/98 at 11:59 AM,  Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no> said:

>> How fast does gravity travel? Or better yet, If I were to cause a
>> gravitational distrubance in some manner, how fast would someone who is
>> "tuned into" the event be aware that it has occured?

>If I don't remember wrong gravity propagates at the speed of light. 

>> The reason I ask is that I was recently re-reading the Honor Harrington
>> series and they employed something similar for early warning.  It cound not
>> send a lot of information, but it could at least let you know realtime that
>> something had caused it to trigger the signal.

>Since it travels at the speed of light...

Not the in the "Honor Harrington" universe. No specific "speed" is
given, but it is *much* greater than c. From the discriptions, I think
you could say gravity propogates at infinite speed in HH's universe,
but the range at which it can be detected as a useful signal is very
limited. The rate of data transfer was also *very* low, IIRC, maybe a
few bits per minute.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:08:25 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: 

- -----Original Message-----
From: David J. Golden <goldendj@pcisys.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, June 08, 1998 11:03 PM
Subject: Re:

>ObTrav: Recontact adventure--a planet populated only by women, who
>reproduce by artificial means and ensure that no embryo with a "Y"
>chromosome is created ... how will they react to a crew composed of
>James Kirk and a few other suchlikes ...


Didn't Lois McMaster Bujold do something on this, with a wolrd full of males
reproduced by artificial means and only a few women kept around for the
"Nobility". Can't remember the name but i think it had Sparta in it?

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 21:29:44 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Starport Costs

At 02:18 PM 6/8/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Oh yes, by the way...

>All righty then, what causes a class D starport to cost 6 billion
>credits?  That's quite a runway.

Take it from this point of view.  San Francisco International Airport
(SFO), is too small, has one of the worst ontime records in the country,
has just been called one of the most dangerous in the world, and has been
under *constant* construction for nearly fifty years.

Total cost (adjusted): 1.6 Billion Dollars.

To get a facility that could handle HEPLaR ships, along with the orbital
traffic control, etc.. I can see 6 Bil.  That would also include
infrastructure and supporting industries.
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 00:35:07 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Images

I was wondering if anyone has the Zhodani Consulate logo scanned or knows
what the colors are of it.  Also, I am looking for a scan of the Duke of
Regina's own Huscarls shield from "The Spinward Marches Campaign"

And a good image of the Imperial sunburst would be nice, too.

Thanks,

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net


http://www.igateway.com/clients/kurt/mp  Morrow Project Site

http://www.igateway.com/clients/kurt/pj PJ the Welsh Terrier Site

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:49:46 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Pre-contact Terra

Date sent:      	Mon, 08 Jun 1998 20:16:04 -0600
To:             	traveller@MPGN.COM
From:           	Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject:        	Pre-contact Terra
Send reply to:  	traveller@MPGN.COM

> Does anyone know of references discussing the state of Terra from the
> present to first contact with the Vilani (~AD2096)?  I expect that this was
> necessarily left vague, to avoid becoming outdated too soon, but I'd like
> to catalog what has been said.

> I have the Library Data supplements, the non-discussion in JTAS #20 in
> Loren Wiseman's Prologue article, the chronologies in Solomani Rim and TCS,
> and the MT Imperial Encyclopedia (which seems to rehash the Library Data).

> References that I suspect may be relevant that I do not have are Alien
> Module 6: Solomani, and the Imperium boardgame.

There is some information in AM6 covering UNSCA (United Nations Space 
Coordinating Agency) and the colonisation of the Solar System. There is some 
more info in S&A and a couple of the MTJ. I've been doing some work on the 
Interstellar Wars period and I'd be happy to send you that (its based on the 
published works). I believe a proper canon E21 suppliment is intended at some 
stage.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++++ su+ ge

************************************************************
Of course its safe, I made it myself
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:52:44 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: 

Date sent:      	Mon, 08 Jun 1998 20:40:33 -0600
To:             	traveller@MPGN.COM
From:           	"David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject:        	Re: 
Send reply to:  	traveller@MPGN.COM

> ObTrav: Recontact adventure--a planet populated only by women, who
> reproduce by artificial means and ensure that no embryo with a "Y"
> chromosome is created ... how will they react to a crew composed of
> James Kirk and a few other suchlikes ...

Where is Kenji when you need him?

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++++ su+ ge

************************************************************
Of course its safe, I made it myself
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 21:59:22 -0700
From: "Brannon \"Ben\" Boren" <brannonb@blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Selling a Starship

Christopher Thrash wrote:
> 
> "Over time, your ownership in the ship increases as the
> debt owed the bank decreases:
> 
> Years      Debt Owed     Ownership
>   0           80%           20%
>  10           66%           34%
>  20           50%           50%
>  30           25%           75%
>  40            0%          100%"

Thanks. This is just what I wanted.  But it brings up another question.
When you aquire a ship as a mustering out benefit, has the 20% downpayment
been made on it for you? If so, the the principal remaining on this brand
new ship is only 80%.

Assuming the table above is the case:  The cash price is MCr 30.75, and you
have only 80% of the principal remaining to pay off = MCr 24.6

So the question is, if you weren't interested in the trader's life, could
you turn around and sell it for the bargain price of MCr 28 and retire on
the extra few million credits? 

- --
Brannon "Ben" Boren
brannonb@blarg.net
http://www.mog.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 00:07:37 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Hijacking summation?

  Sorry about this, but there is some (useful?) material on the
economic uses of stations, and commerce raiding issues in the
bottom half. The rest is the usual.
...
>>  You know, it's _very_ difficult to discuss what's wrong (or right)
>>with an assumption, model, or POV when the closest most posts get to
>>technical analysis is "I disagree".
>
>Hogwash again.  First of all, you are being inconsitent.  You claim
>I require narrow economic analysis and then that I won't get into
>any analysis.

  Inconsistent? How? We've established that you won't bother doing any
Traveller number crunching, or at least sharing the process with anyone.
Do you require narrow economic analysis in debate? I've only seen the
case made that what would normally be considered political decisions be
assessed using an economic decision making model with no apparent real
world basis.

>I have explained why I disagree, except for instances
>where I have already explained it, over and over, in threads
>that have been beaten to death and we already know where every
>one stands and those instances where we have discussed things to the
>point that it has been shown that the only disagreement is what kind
>of society we see the Imerium to be.  (and event then we have
>discussed why we see things that way).  If I was just saying "I disagree"
>these posts would be a _lot_ shorter.

  Isn't this the same discussion you had with Hans'? It could be that
something is interfering with our ability to your analysis as well as
you do, which is unfortunate. OC, it could be because we're all commies...

  Hey - that would make us the "Capitalist Piracy is Doomed to the
Bargain Bin of History" Faktion!

  OC, we'd be in favour of state-supported or subsidized piracy :)

>If you are claiming that you are somehow giving reasons while I am
>just say "not so", I'll say again, Hogwash.  I remind you that
>you are the one who used the terms "bizzare" and "exceedingly narrow".

  I've explained "bizarre", and I believe the definition is pretty useful.

...
>I have not answered things that a) have been beaten to death, and

  Part of the persistent problem in these threads is that your standards
of evidence differ radically from those of the so-(mis-)called "Piracy
is Impossible" faction. If so, perhaps avoiding discussion of technical
aspects of these would be best all around?

>b) I don't care about anymore.  If I let you get the last word on those
>and rested on what I said before, I see nothing wrong with that.
>Nor have you been adverse to dropping points for whatever reason.
>If you have a problem with my not being willing to debate what
>you want to, that is your problem, not mine.

  Any points I've dropped have been in the interest of staying on topic
or simply not getting stuck in a morass of your "disagreements". If there
are any points that we've addressed that you feel were dropped without
necessary explanation please inform me and I'll try to address them or
explain my unwillingness to do so. I'm surprised that you allowed the
dropping of useful points to go by w/o comment.

  Given the level of effort and attention you often seem to apply, I have
to wonder if you cared about the thread in the first place (see below).
I'm simply not concerned with getting in the last word here. So there! :>

>If you feel that I ahve taken something out of context, then say
>what you were really saying.  It is, after all, something
> I have had to do numerous times.

  I often spend too much of my time in these threads explaining what
I hoped was clear language to you, and of course clearing up your
deliberate misattributions of statement or meaning.

>[Stuff where I can't tell if the poster is trying to say he didn't
>mean to call my viewpoint "bizarre" or is trying to justify doing
>so has been deleted.]

  Explaining the usage. I'm inclined to stand by it.

...
>>  True. However, if a 100-D station is economically quite viable,
>>then (as you argue above) then _a_ station will exist where traffic
>>warrants whether it supplies fuel or not. If someone then builds a
>>fuel tank (provably quite economical and profitable) they might as
>>well park it nearby, placing it within the first stations presumed
>>defensive envelope.
>
>Sure.  But, one last time, if the situation become one where those
>stations are untenable, one is not going to decide not building
>fueling stations because you can't also build a trade station.
>So explaining why the trade staions might not exist doesn't
>explain why the fueling station don't exist.

  The point was that a fuel-station, even if somehow not worth arming
in its' own right (which seems odd) will almost certainly attract other
activity that will be worth defending or may have integral armament.
Further, the paragraph that you're responding to indicates clearly that
the trade station is more likely than a fuel station, and that if one 
were absent it would be the fuel station.

...
>Then why did you claim that I abandoned them if you were the
>one holding off?

  I felt it was only fair to allow you to prepare your own counter model
of commerce raiding in OTU, as you obviously had one in mind.

  Further:
"
>>> iii) weren't these jump stations last seen as Imperial Navy auxiliary
tankers
>>> in your latest case for why the systems implementation would have been
so swift
>>> that its' lack of mention in MT would make the system itself uncanonical?
>>
>>They were _one_ example out of a number of ways in
>>which they could be implimented.  But in any case, 
>>you would still just need a big ship with a lot
>>of fuel and hoses you could pull away fast.
>
>  They were the last (IIRC) effort of yours to evade other presuemd
>flaws in the implementation program. If you abandon them so quickly
>why did you bother to propound them as a solution in the first place?
                                                                      "

  As you can see, you only recently appeared to abandon them. I had assumed
until then that you had a consistent model you were proposing. Again, please
save me the effort of researching your threads for you.

>Nor am I aware of any "model" that you proposed.

  That was the discussion which ended as:
"
>>  One of us has a serious problem visualizing concentration of force.
>
>Yeah, but who?
                "

  I can send you the original model if you need to refresh your memory.

>>>No.  They come out when the ships that need them arrive.
>>>The enemy ships have to show up at just that time and
>>>if they can catch and defeat convoys so realiably, then it really
>>>doesn't matter what system you are using.
>
>>  The problem here is that the first wave of an invasion will probably
>>decapitate the system, without the somewhat problematic additional
>>fleets of Navy tankers.
>
>Well, as I pointed out a while back, if commerce raiding also
>entailed bombardment of the system, it seems odd that it was
>refered to as raiding "commerce" and not attacking the whole system.

  The case was explained as involving insufficent heavy units to do that.
I can send that to you as well, but it would be simpler if you checked the
archives.

>I also pointed out that you can indeed have a fleet that
>can attack ships jumping in and out without having enough
>firepower to get back such planetary defenses as deep meson
>sites.

  Umm, isn't this the case for intruders that was made by me?

...
>What do you mean, "even in peacetime"?  Are you saying that
>ID will be _relaxed_ when war breaks out?  And that this will
>be done even though the presence of convoys means that you
>can ID a whole fleet of ships together rather than having
>do do them one at a time?  And don't you think the presence
>of enemy fleets moving around and attacking ships would make
>people willing to do things they wouldn't do in peacetime?

  As explained IYTU, peacetime ID is essentially unconfirmed? If I've
misunderstood, then a brief explanation would be appreciated.

  As for the rest, I assume that both war and peacetime transponders
will be meaningfully secure, and that convoy ID will be trivial to
confirm. What about individual ships jumping in and needing fuel to
continue their escape from a warzone that they require demountable
tanks to survive in?

...
>The station can either come out to them (if you simply put
>a maneuver drive on it) or tell them where he is.

  How fast is that tanker? If built as a space/starship the cost is quite
great relative to fuel capacity. Does the freighter broadcast using its'
radio and hope no hostiles are there to hear? Does the fuel facility do so?

...
>And from where I stand sufficient refutation was indeed offered and
>no serious counter arguement was offered.

  OK. It's hard to argue with logic like that. No doubt that we'll be able
to monitor this input a bit more closely next time it's discussed.

>God these "nothing you said was worthwhile" exchanges are wearysome!
>
>What do people think the other person is going to respond
>with?  "Gee, your right"???  And why, just because someone

  Tell me about it. The odd thing is, I don't have a problem with being
wrong, just with being wrong and not finding out about it. I've had (and
do have) disagreements with most of the other posters on the piracy thread
- - Hans, Mr. Smith, Tommy Grav, and Mr. Whitchurch to start with, although
not all involve piracy.

...
>the other in general terms.  Can't they just agree that it has already
>been discussed and agree to disagree rather than going on
>pointlessly recapping positions that everyone already knows?

  Part of the problem seems to be that some of us (perhaps unreasonably)
have certain standards of evidence that you feel you're meeting, when we
perceive you to be mostly stating disagreement or invalidity of offered
evidence without substantial support.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 04:37:49 EDT
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Lightbulbs

	Here's one from the old archives:

How many Vilani does it take to change a light bulb?
I'm not sure; I better look it up.


How many Solomani does it take to change a light bulb?
Fewer than anybody ELSE, damn it!


How many Zhodani does it take--
- - - --To change a light bulb? I knew you were going to ask that.

How many Hivers does it take to change a light bulb?
None. They get someone else to do it. And what's worse, they make them think
it was their idea all along.

(or)

How many Hivers does it take to change a lightbulb?
<hold up both hands and slowly wiggle fingers>

How many K'Kree does it take to change a lighbulb?
As many as can fit into the room.

How many Aslan does it take to change a lightbulb?
Male or female?

(or)

How many Aslan does it take to change a lightbulb--GLURK!
<grab; throat squeezed slowly> I do not know, little human, but I wish to
laugh
as hard as everyone else apparently is. Why don't you tell me?

How many Vargr does it take to change a lightbulb?
Four. One to go get a ladder, one to slug the first one and take the ladder 
away, one to slap the second one around and force him to hold the ladder while
the first one wipes his bloody nose and climbs the ladder, and one to stand
by and smirk until the job's done and then take credit for it.

(or)

How many Vargr does it take to change a lightbulb?
YES! <insane half-barked, half-howled laughter>

How many Droyne does it take to change a lightbulb?
Six. It ALWAYS takes six. EVERYTHING always takes six.

(or) 

HOw many Droyne does it take to change a lightbulb?
Six. A Worker to split a claw trying to hit nails in the dark, a Warrior
to rough him up for damaging valuable nails with his carelessness, a Drone
to cast the coyns and decide if maybe darkness isn't a good idea, a Leader
to trip over the hammer and scream for something to be done at once, a
Technician to immediately implement a feasibility study for future
illumination
patterns, and a Sport to watch the proceedings with resignation, sigh, and 
go get a lightbulb and put it in himself.

(or)

How many Droyne does it take to change a lightbulb?
<look around fearfully, then hesitantly peep in a tiny voice:> .....One?



Bryan

ObTrav: How many TMLer's does it take to discuss Pirates in the Imperium?

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #568
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Tuesday, June 9 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 569



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Trivia
MT Spreadsheets
How dangerous is.....
more Trivia
Re: Starport Construction Costs, v2
Re: Does anybody know?
Re: Starport Costs
Re: Campaign Builders' Handbook
Re: MT Spreadsheets 
Re: MegaTraveller Ship Design
Re: Virtual Friend
Starports and traffic control
Re: "Virtual Girl"  Traveller-digest V1998 #566
Re: Selling a Starship
How things wear out
Re: Campaign Builders' Handbook
Re: Campaign Builders' Handbook
Re: Piracy - Imperial policies
Reaver's Deep
Re: Selling a Starship
RE: Pre-contact Terra
Re: Virtual Friend 
Re: Selling a Starship
Re: How dangerous is.....

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 04:39:11 EDT
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Trivia

	Who can give the location of the "Black Globe" world?

Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 04:43:37 EDT
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: MT Spreadsheets

	I have a set of MT spreadsheets available in Lotus format. They include all
known errata, and have been relatively extensively tested. There are 5 of them
(TL11-15).

	If there's enough interest I could post them to my web site for FTPing
(especially if someone could give me the code on how to do that). Also if
someone would like to convert them to Excel, I'd be interested.

Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 04:48:06 EDT
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: How dangerous is.....

	And while reliving the old archives:

	How dangerous is a black globe ship entering a world's atmosphere?


Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 04:49:17 EDT
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: more Trivia

	What tools did Rob Dean use to create all his designs....


Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 05:00:02 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Starport Construction Costs, v2

Robert Eaglestone wrote:

> II. PARKBAYS

Can't say I like this idea much.  I'd rather leave my ship in orbit and use
an
air raft or something for landfall.  Wouldn't a large network of individual
or
one well partitioned landing pad be sufficient.  Especially at larger ports
where simulanteous launches might be common.

> V. BASES
>
> There are three kinds of bases here: Scout way stations, Scout
> bases, and Naval bases.

I always figured that 80-90% of the facilities of such bases would bein
orbit.  Is that ludicrous?


Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 05:07:12 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Does anybody know?

Andy Slack wrote:

> Message text written by INTERNET:traveller@mpgn.com
> >>What is the name of the Imperial Intellegence Service?<

In Milieu 0, the intellignce work is done under the third undersecretary

of the Bureau of Interstellar Affairs who reports directly to the
Emperor.
Other agencies that are part of the intellignce community include
(Milieu 0, pp 50-51)
Imperial Naval Intelligence
Imperial Ministry of Justice
Imperial Interstellar Scout Service Intelligence Branch
The Vilani Bureaus
Imperial University Social Sciences Department
The Loyal Association of Pages

> If there were such a thing as the Covert Survey Bureau I
> would mention it. But of course there isn't. And if there was
> it wouldn't be safe to talk about it. Errrm... let's talk about
> pirates instead...
>
> <ducks for cover>

LOL

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 05:09:16 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Starport Costs

dberry@hooked.net wrote:

> At 02:18 PM 6/8/98 EDT, you wrote:
> >Oh yes, by the way...
>
> >All righty then, what causes a class D starport to cost 6 billion
> >credits?  That's quite a runway.

[snip]

> To get a facility that could handle HEPLaR ships, along with the orbital
> traffic control, etc.. I can see 6 Bil.  That would also include
> infrastructure and supporting industries.

Ok.  How much for the dry lake bed?

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 05:24:22 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Campaign Builders' Handbook

Christopher Thrash wrote:

> At 03:22 AM 2/7/98 -0500, Bloo wrote:
> >
> >P.S.  This as well as several other threads on TML have led me to the
> >conclusion that what we all really, really want to have/write/use/etc. is a
> >comprehensive book about running instellar campaigns against a very large
> >backdrop of both time and space.  A Campaign Builders Handbook if you will.
> >Or perhaps Universe Engineer's Manual.

Thanks for ressurecting this.  I'd plumb forgot about it.

> That is, what resources does anyone know of on the Web pertaining to the
> art and science of campaign building?  I have copies of Analog articles on
> psychohistory, for instance, but those are long out of print, and may have
> been superceded.

Let me clarify my original intention.  I wasn't thinking of the art and science
ofcampagn bulding really.  I was thinking of a combination of two things.
One, a Traveller Bible,I guess you would call it.  All the Canon.  All the
timelines.
All the library data.  Two, rules for dealing with large and small scale events
over
time.

I think we all understand the first part.  And for me, this would be the most
usefull and interesting.

Let me say something about the second.
I was thinking of tables for modifiers of languages over time, i.e., if a TL 12
society devolves to TL4 for X amount of years, the modifier for a 'modern'
galanglic speaker to understand them would be Y.  Tables (possibly taken from
PE) for ramping up TLs.  Breakdown rates for materials based on TL of
production, e.g., a 5 century old TL9 starship might be completely useless, but
a 5 century old TL 15 ship would only have X% of systems failed/useless..


Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 05:49:39 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: MT Spreadsheets 

> 	I have a set of MT spreadsheets available in Lotus format. They include all
> known errata, and have been relatively extensively tested. There are 5 of them
> (TL11-15).
> 
> 	If there's enough interest I could post them to my web site for FTPing
> (especially if someone could give me the code on how to do that). Also if
> someone would like to convert them to Excel, I'd be interested.

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lotus spreadsheets are NO problem here!

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 12:29:33 +0000
From: "Jens.Maskus" <Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Subject: Re: MegaTraveller Ship Design

Hi,

i can export it as in excel format. losing some information is possible but
not neccsarry.

Jens


On Mon, 08 Jun 1998 06:52:03 -0700, Jim Cooper wrote:

>Jens.Maskus wrote:
>> 
>> It is a STAROFFICE 4.0 Spredsheet. (It is far from complete, but i think it is big and useful to
>> me, if you want i can send it and answer questions ;-)
>> 
>> Jens
>> 
>> On Sat, 06 Jun 1998 17:05:03 -0700, Jim Cooper wrote:
>> 
>> >Jens.Maskus wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I'm still using MTDesign system with some modifications!
>> >>
>> >
>> >Is that avaialable in DOS, Windows versions and fropm where?
>> >Did anyone ever put the CT ship design into a computer program?
>> >
>> >Jim
>> >
>Sorry Jens, you have me at a dissadvantage. I use Windows 95, and MS
>Office Pro which has excel spreadsheets and access data base. Past that,
>I'm a computer illiterate. If you feel that STAROFFICE 4.0 Spreadsheet
>would be compatible then by all means send it. I'll try to bring it up
>,and then if you need help in finishing it maybe we can work together on
>it. I'm game.
>
>Jim
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 12:42:56 +0100
From: "Buston, John" <john.buston@eds.com>
Subject: Re: Virtual Friend

>ObTrav: Recontact adventure--a planet populated only by women, who
>reproduce by artificial means and ensure that no embryo with a "Y"
>chromosome is created ... how will they react to a crew composed of
>James Kirk and a few other suchlikes.

A variation of this was done by EE Doc Smith in one of the Lensman
books.

Also there is an East European (Russian?) Film depicting a
post-nuclear-war underground community consisting entirely of women
reproducing by artificial means. Chaos ensues when two men arrive on the
scene (exploration - discovery  - trial - sentence - escape - plot twist
ending). The usual ;-)
John

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:50:23 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Starports and traffic control

I've been following the pirate debate and have a question. Does everyone
require all starship traffic to go to the main (one or more) starport(s)?
Is it possible for ships to land on private estates, small landingpads
besides factories, smaller airports and so on?   

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 07:42:49 -0600
From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
Subject: Re: "Virtual Girl"  Traveller-digest V1998 #566

All:

Don't do a search for "Virtual Girl" if you are offended by adult
entertainment or your service frowns on it.  Was I ever surprised!

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 09:19:12 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Selling a Starship

Brannon "Ben" Boren wrote:

> Christopher Thrash wrote:
> >
> > "Over time, your ownership in the ship increases as the
> > debt owed the bank decreases:
> >
> > Years      Debt Owed     Ownership
> >   0           80%           20%
> >  10           66%           34%
> >  20           50%           50%
> >  30           25%           75%
> >  40            0%          100%"
>
> Thanks. This is just what I wanted.  But it brings up another question.
> When you aquire a ship as a mustering out benefit, has the 20% downpayment
> been made on it for you? If so, the the principal remaining on this brand
> new ship is only 80%.
>
> Assuming the table above is the case:  The cash price is MCr 30.75, and you
> have only 80% of the principal remaining to pay off = MCr 24.6
>
> So the question is, if you weren't interested in the trader's life, could
> you turn around and sell it for the bargain price of MCr 28 and retire on
> the extra few million credits?

So, you're asking if you can make a character that retires straight out of the
generation process? Not exactly fun to play...

I think that you'll also  find that if you don't invest that 28 Mcr wisely, it
won't last.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:21:41 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: How things wear out

Someone was mentioning how a 2 century old starship built at
TL9 would be useless, but a TL15 starship that old would still be
(at least somewhat) functional.

I'm not sure this would be the case. I think it would matter _when_ in
the tech level the ship was built. A TL9 starship built near the end of
the tech level, with mature and well-understood technologies, should
far outlast a TL15 starship built out of experimental designs by a
TL14.99999 society.

The operational life of a DC3 vs the operational life of a 747, for example.

Of course, you can have things built with TL15 materials but using
TL9 designs. I recall a Star Trek:Next Gen show where the Enterprise
aids a free trader type ship. The engineer replaces a main drive
component, the free trader asks how he's ever going to get such a
high-tech piece serviced - the Enterprise guy points out that the new
piece is going to outlast the ship by several hundred years.

Take a starship design at TL9 - a type S Scout, for example. Build it
with all TL15 materials, from hull plates to carpeting. The design allowed
for wear and stress tolerances of TL9 materials - how much longer
will it last than something of TL9 manufacture? How much longer will
it last than something of TL15 manufacture that was designed at TL15,
and so will be designed to test the wear and stress limits of the materials
more closely?

If they built cars with today's steel and designs from the 1930's, the cars
would last a century.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 07:31:59 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Campaign Builders' Handbook

For now, I'm simply going to accrete the replies and repost them for all
interested parties:

My contribution:

http://www.sff.net/people/Geoffrey.Landis/spinning_wheel.htp

which is a series of two articles on how prediction of historical events
does *not* work.

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>

	http://www.compulink.co.uk/~vicarage/planets/ is a good resource for
world creation; from the intro: "These pages are on the borderline
between hard Science Fiction and genuine science. In the hard SF
tradition, everything here is scientifically rigorous, except when it
is more fun to bend the rules"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 07:29:55 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Campaign Builders' Handbook

For now, I'm simply going to accrete the replies and repost them for all
interested parties:

My contribution:

http://www.sff.net/people/Geoffrey.Landis/spinning_wheel.htp

which is a series of two articles on how prediction of historical events
does *not* work.

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>

	http://www.compulink.co.uk/~vicarage/planets/ is a good resource for
world creation; from the intro: "These pages are on the borderline
between hard Science Fiction and genuine science. In the hard SF
tradition, everything here is scientifically rigorous, except when it
is more fun to bend the rules"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:54:39 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Re: Piracy - Imperial policies

> Sethkimmel@aol.com posted:
>
>That's why I always thought that if that idiot Dulinor had bothered to
get
>some support for his idea (which appeals to me) of an Imperium that
gave a
>rats ass about the member planets, instead of just walking in the front
door
>and shooting Strephon; he might have had more support outside of
Ileish.

Yeah, like most great ideas, it failed in execution.  ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:44:24 -0400
From: "Ed Leland" <eleland@gte.net>
Subject: Reaver's Deep

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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I'm in search of material for Reaver's Deep sector in preparation for =
the release of LOM (Drool..)  Has a sector listing complete with system =
names, Star types, etc ever been put out for Reaver's Deep?  The one's =
I've found archived are incomplete and sometimes conflict with other =
printed material.  If there's stuff that's been put out that isn't on =
the following list, let me know.  And if anyone has a line on Far =
Traveller #2 or the Marishal (SP?) folio adventures - PLEASE let me =
know.  Thanks!=20

Sources that I know about:

Far Traveller #1                                                Ea =
Subsector
Far Traveller #2                                                Scotian =
Deep Subsector?  (Don't own - think its this one)
Traveller Digest #16                                          Urlaggash =
Subsector
A Pilot's Guide to Drexilthar Subsector              Drexilthar =
Subsector
Traveller Chronicle #5-7                                    Caledon =
Subsector
Traveller Chronicle #6                                       Gralyn =
Union (Parts of Eakoi and Drinsaar Subsectors)

Adventures
The Drenslaar Quest
Ascent to Anekthor
Dune Raiders
Double Adventure #6 Night of Conquest / Divine Intervention
Trading Team
Escape

Thanks
Ed Leland
eleland@gte.net
 =20

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I'm in search of material for =
Reaver's Deep=20
sector in preparation for the release of LOM (Drool..)&nbsp; Has a =
sector=20
listing complete with system names, Star types, etc ever been put out =
for=20
Reaver's Deep?&nbsp; The one's I've found archived are incomplete and =
sometimes=20
conflict with other printed material.&nbsp; If there's stuff that's been =
put out=20
that isn't on the following list, let me know.&nbsp; And if anyone has a =
line on=20
Far Traveller #2 or the Marishal (SP?) folio adventures - PLEASE let me=20
know.&nbsp; Thanks! </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Sources that I know =
about:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Far Traveller=20
#1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Ea Subsector</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Far Traveller=20
#2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Scotian Deep Subsector?&nbsp; (Don't own - think its this =
one)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Traveller Digest=20
#16&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Urlaggash Subsector</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>A Pilot's Guide to Drexilthar=20
Subsector&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Drexilthar Subsector</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Traveller Chronicle=20
#5-7&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Caledon Subsector</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Traveller Chronicle=20
#6&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Gralyn Union (Parts of Eakoi and Drinsaar Subsectors)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Adventures</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>The Drenslaar Quest</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Ascent to Anekthor</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Dune Raiders</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Double Adventure #6 Night of =
Conquest / Divine=20
Intervention</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Trading Team</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Escape</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Thanks</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Ed Leland</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:eleland@gte.net">eleland@gte.net</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>&nbsp; </FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BD9393.91BB78E0--

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 07:37:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brannon Boren <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Selling a Starship

- --
Brannon "Ben" Boren
http://www.mog.net/brannonb/

On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Joe Pettit wrote:

> So, you're asking if you can make a character that retires straight out of the
> generation process? Not exactly fun to play...

No, I'm not. I'm asking why this doesn't happen. I expect more than just
PCs are receiving starships as mustering out benefits, eh?  And having a
few million credits invested somewhere doesn't make a character boring to
play  ;)  (at least I hope MY life isn't boring after I get my few mill
stashed!)

I mostly was interested in the question because I wanted to use this as
part of the story behind how an NPC businessman got started, and wondered
if most folks found it feasable.
 
Ben

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:29:18 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Pre-contact Terra

There is actually an issue of the Megatraveller Journal (or whatever is was
called at the time) dealing with Earth in modern Imperial times.

Brian Mays

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM
>[mailto:owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM]On Behalf Of
>Christopher Thrash
>Sent: Monday, June 08, 1998 7:16 PM
>To: traveller@mpgn.com
>Subject: Pre-contact Terra
>
>
>Does anyone know of references discussing the state of Terra from the
>present to first contact with the Vilani (~AD2096)?  I expect that this was
>necessarily left vague, to avoid becoming outdated too soon, but I'd like
>to catalog what has been said.
>
>I have the Library Data supplements, the non-discussion in JTAS #20 in
>Loren Wiseman's Prologue article, the chronologies in Solomani Rim and TCS,
>and the MT Imperial Encyclopedia (which seems to rehash the Library Data).
>
>References that I suspect may be relevant that I do not have are Alien
>Module 6: Solomani, and the Imperium boardgame.
>
>Thanks, all.
>
>Chris
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 11:33:25 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Virtual Friend 

> >ObTrav: Recontact adventure--a planet populated only by women, who
> >reproduce by artificial means and ensure that no embryo with a "Y"
> >chromosome is created ... how will they react to a crew composed of
> >James Kirk and a few other suchlikes.
> 
> A variation of this was done by EE Doc Smith in one of the Lensman
> books.

Also, David Brin's 'Glory Season'.  A damned good read.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 11:33:56 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Selling a Starship

Brannon Boren wrote:

> --
> Brannon "Ben" Boren
> http://www.mog.net/brannonb/
>
> On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Joe Pettit wrote:
>
> > So, you're asking if you can make a character that retires straight out of the
> > generation process? Not exactly fun to play...
>
> No, I'm not. I'm asking why this doesn't happen. I expect more than just
> PCs are receiving starships as mustering out benefits, eh?  And having a
> few million credits invested somewhere doesn't make a character boring to
> play  ;)  (at least I hope MY life isn't boring after I get my few mill
> stashed!)
>
> I mostly was interested in the question because I wanted to use this as
> part of the story behind how an NPC businessman got started, and wondered
> if most folks found it feasable.

Well, I for one think that receiving a ship as a mustering out benefit is strictly a
plot device sort of thing.  Without a ship, you're hardly a "traveller" thus there
needs to be a means to get the characters from point A to point B. I think also that
one of the assumptions to receiving a ship is that the character made investments
towards buying the ship during his career.  If a character then sells the ship, then
its quite obvious that it never was his intention to own the ship and therefore
would not have invested into the ship in the first place.

TNE has another preventative measure.  At best, the GROUP gets one ship between
them.   Everyone contributes their share towards getting one ship.  Whoever has the
most shares determine the class of vessel.  Thus, if you sell said ship, you have to
divide the proceeds among the various members of the group.  While still a chunk of
change, it certainly isn't enough to retire on.  I think there is also the option to
sell your shares directly, which is probably the best route for somebody that
doesn't want a ship.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:15:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: How dangerous is.....

Kagehira@aol.com writes:
>      And while reliving the old archives:
> 
>      How dangerous is a black globe ship entering a world's atmosphere?

Per FF&S, it appears that an active black globe entering atmosphere will absorb
energy from the atmosphere until it overloads, at which point you now have a
ship with overloaded capacitors--which will probably have taken enough damage
that it will crash.  This is presumably about as dangerous as any other
spaceship crash of comparable velocity and tonnage.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #569
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Tuesday, June 9 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 570



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Pre-contact Terra
Re: Reaver's Deep
Re: Selling a Starship
MT Design Tools
Re: Starports and traffic control
Re: Selling a Starship
Re: Old TMLs and TMLers
Re: Reaver's Deep
Re: Starports and traffic control
Re:  Recontact (was: nothing)
Re: more Trivia
Re: Selling a Starship and Starship Loteries (long)
Re: Starport Construction Costs, v2
Distinguishing Vilani
Re: Reaver's Deep
Campaign Builders' Handbook
Re: Reaver's Deep
Re: Reaver's Deep 
Re: Campaign Builders' Handbook 
Re: Does anybody know?
Re: Trivia
Starports and traffic control
Re: Reaver's Deep 
Re: MT Spreadsheets

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 17:29:52 +0100 (BST)
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: Pre-contact Terra

>There is actually an issue of the Megatraveller Journal (or whatever is
>was called at the time) dealing with Earth in modern Imperial times.

Travellers Digest 13, entitled EARTH in the 54th(?) Centry IIRC

	Ewan Quibell
	Data Communications Technician        The Game's afoot:
	Computer Centre                       Follow your spirit, and apon
	University of Brighton                  this charge
                                              Cry 'God for Harry, England,
	E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              and Saint George !'

                                                    Henry V 3:1
	#include<stddisclamer.h>                    W. Shakespeare

	My spelling is entierly due to dyslexia, typoes and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 17:36:36 +0100 (BST)
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Reaver's Deep

Atlas of the Imperium, for star layout, gas gient, starport, a few names
etc.

Didn't DGP put out full listings of sector data, including Reaver's Deep ?
and is this archived somewhere ?


	Ewan Quibell
	Data Communications Technician        The Game's afoot:
	Computer Centre                       Follow your spirit, and apon
	University of Brighton                  this charge
                                              Cry 'God for Harry, England,
	E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              and Saint George !'

                                                    Henry V 3:1
	#include<stddisclamer.h>                    W. Shakespeare

	My spelling is entierly due to dyslexia, typoes and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 12:42:06 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Selling a Starship

Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>So, you're asking if you can make a character that retires straight out
>of the
>generation process? Not exactly fun to play...

This could be fun. Retired, with a pension, hence no money worries. You
could devote yourself to travelling, seeing the galaxy, righting wrongs...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 12:55:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rob Dean <robdean@access.digex.net>
Subject: MT Design Tools

Bryan writes:
> From: Kagehira@aol.com
> Subject: more Trivia
> 	What tools did Rob Dean use to create all his designs....
> Bryan

A pencil, a pad of graph paper, and a calculator.  I used to have a sheet of
a few standard "packages" of stuff worked out, and would just plug those
in.  I ought to scrounge around and find the "Designer's Notes" file on
MT shortcuts--anybody good at dredging the old archives?

Scott Kellogg used to have spreadsheets...

Rob Dean
robdean@access.digex.net

(I only half-read the TML these days, so you're lucky I spotted this one.
Best to use my name in the header, or send me a cc: if you need me for
anything.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 09:51:57 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Starports and traffic control

At 01:50 PM 6/9/98 +0200, Tommy Grav wrote:
>I've been following the pirate debate and have a question. Does everyone
>require all starship traffic to go to the main (one or more) starport(s)?
>Is it possible for ships to land on private estates, small landingpads
>besides factories, smaller airports and so on?

IMTU, it is possible, but only with special permission.

Since the Imperium rules the space between the worlds, I ruled the following:

The Imperium taxes off planet trade, assuming roughly 10% of the GDP comes
from it and the associated infrastructure.  Of that, they take a third.

The Imperium assumes large military machine, costing roughly 5% of
planetary GDP.  Again, they take roughly a third of this assumed budget,
unless the world is judged "incapable of competent self defense."

As a result, the Imperium taxes 8% of GDP from all member worlds, though of
that 8%, somewhat over half is expected to be put back in the form of local
armed forces, space navies, noble fiefs, and noble reinvestments.  If they
do not have some idea what is going off world, it is hard to determine
economic numbers, from which taxes are determined.  They do have Scouts
analyzing economies on site, but they prefer numbers which can be measured.

So, they are very interested in trade taking place, and thus any ship
landing at a private field is required to get the "No, I am not smuggling
anything the Imperium cares about" seal of approval.  This can be done by
getting permits for things shipped out privately, and the powerful will
usually have someone on staff who is trusted by Imperial customs to sign
permits.  It is the presence of such people that makes a star port
extraterritorial, and they usually do not transfer this right to many
places in a system, since it is the Imperium's responsibility to patrol it.
 As a result, the legal fiction is that the customs guy is working at the
main port, even though he is approving a cargo half a world away.

This opens up huge ground for smuggling, and appropriate controls are in
place.  The details depend on the world, but the usual trick is that any
traffic requesting such a permit is more likely to be a smuggler, and so
has a higher chance of attention.  Sending over a pinnace once in a while,
or swapping out the inspectors, makes it possible to catch people in the
long run.

Those who cannot afford the permits issued off site will hire out to ship
the goods on the planet to the port, get them inspected there, and then
leave, using their starship as a glorified train or boat, and then
switching roles.  As a result, a player ship will almost always dock at the
port, even if only for that last customs inspection.

Imperial customs is very forgiving about goods shipped, as it is up to the
world's inspectors to keep out things they disapprove of.  To keep
relations reasonable, they do tend to do both inspections at once, and
share data.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 10:01:57 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Selling a Starship

At 07:37 AM 6/9/98 -0700, you wrote:
>
>
>--
>Brannon "Ben" Boren
>http://www.mog.net/brannonb/
>
>On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Joe Pettit wrote:
>
>> So, you're asking if you can make a character that retires straight out
of the
>> generation process? Not exactly fun to play...
>
>No, I'm not. I'm asking why this doesn't happen. I expect more than just
>PCs are receiving starships as mustering out benefits, eh?  And having a
>few million credits invested somewhere doesn't make a character boring to
>play  ;)  (at least I hope MY life isn't boring after I get my few mill
>stashed!)

The rule of thumb I use is based on today's real estate.  Instead of
financing a house, pay the amount of the house payment that would go to
equity into a savings account.  Most should find this a doable task early
in the note, and late in the note, you get the interest from earlier
contributions.  You will likely find that you can buy the house you wish
free and clear long, long before you would have paid off a note on the same
house.  It is similar to only buying property where you can make an extra
principle payment once a year.  this can take ten years off your repayment
time, because of the heavy weighting on principle early on.

Why don't people do this?  Because they do not want to live in lesser
surroundings for the years it would take to sock away money.  Further, if
they can pay off a $200K house in 30 years, or a $210K house in 40, most
would rather take the more expensive house.

In Traveller, the merchant who is making these ship payments wants a ship.
Where they to stop at any point, they would have a huge pile of money, but
they would rather slave to own it free and clear.  This is related to an
issue I brought up some time ago - ANY person with even a small ownerships
share in a ship is rich rich rich by any reasonable standard, so ports are
not going to be seedy.  They will look more like expensive law offices
designed to make overly wealthy people impressed.

I have no problem with a player deciding that the merchant life is not
panning out, and deciding to play a rich bum.  I have had a number do it,
usually buying a TAS membership to satisfy wanderlust.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:12:11 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Old TMLs and TMLers

>The Sunbane (at U. of Western Ontario, Waterloo, CA) and Metolius
>(Tektronix, Beaverton, OR) archives are both toast.  They were wiped
>by their respective owners years ago.
>


If you can give me any specifics on the Tektronix archives, I'll see if they
have been archived or if the original owner is still around.

douglas
(ahem)
System Administrator
Tektronix, Wilsonville

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com or douglasg@pogo.wv.tek.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:30:25 -0400
From: "Ed Leland" <eleland@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Reaver's Deep

Yes, DGP did do one with all the planet stats, but only about half the
planets named and about 25% with stellar data.  I can do all that myself,
but want to make sure that I'm not reinventing the wheel.

Ed Leland
eleland@gte.net

- -----Original Message-----
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
To: traveller <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, 09 June, 1998 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: Reaver's Deep


>Atlas of the Imperium, for star layout, gas gient, starport, a few names
>etc.
>
>Didn't DGP put out full listings of sector data, including Reaver's Deep ?
>and is this archived somewhere ?
>
>
> Ewan Quibell
> Data Communications Technician        The Game's afoot:
> Computer Centre                       Follow your spirit, and apon
> University of Brighton                  this charge
>                                              Cry 'God for Harry, England,
> E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              and Saint George !'
>
>                                                    Henry V 3:1
> #include<stddisclamer.h>                    W. Shakespeare
>
> My spelling is entierly due to dyslexia, typoes and poetic license
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:34:28 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Starports and traffic control

>I've been following the pirate debate and have a question. Does everyone
>require all starship traffic to go to the main (one or more) starport(s)?
>Is it possible for ships to land on private estates, small landingpads
>besides factories, smaller airports and so on?
>


IMTU:
The primary starport has extraterritorial status (meaning that the planetary
law level does not affect it), but if you land or go to one of the
auxilliary spaceports, you forfeit that protection.  (there is a balance,
the planet is not going to want to harass traders too much, but you still
can't just walk all over planetary law at a auxilliary port) Additionally,
all traffic with cargo or passengers must contact the starport for customs
clearance - before requesting the permission of COACC for a flight path for
a planetary landing.  I don't require the ship physically port with the
starport, but it may have to if there is a discrepency in it's 'papers' and
there is no patrol ship or SDB available to ferry the customs inspection
team over (Generally a Imperial Naval Officer and 2 marines in BattleDress).


E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:32:38 -0600
From: chet-el@juno.com (Chester L Cox)
Subject: Re:  Recontact (was: nothing)

Also the 1950s or early 1960s novel *Virgin Planet*.  Can't remember who
wrote it, oddly enough.  Seems like it was Ted Sturgeon, but that's just
a guess.  Irritates me, because I remember it was one of my favorite
writers, but now I can't quite place his name.

*jeep!
- ---Chet

>ObTrav: Recontact adventure--a planet populated only by women, who
>reproduce by artificial means and ensure that no embryo with a "Y"
>chromosome is created ... how will they react to a crew composed of
>James Kirk and a few other suchlikes ...


>Didn't Lois McMaster Bujold do something on this, with a wolrd full of
males
>reproduced by artificial means and only a few women kept around for the
>"Nobility". Can't remember the name but i think it had Sparta in it?

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:37:34 EDT
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Re: more Trivia

In a message dated 6/9/98 10:03:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com writes:

	[[ Pen and paper. Honest. I asked him a question once about one of his
designs and he had just thrown out his design work sheets (three years after
design it). Those were the days... Jo ]]

	Those where also the days everybody complained about how hard it was to
design without a spreadsheet too.

Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:48:12 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Selling a Starship and Starship Loteries (long)

> Brannon "Ben" Boren wrote:
> > So the question is, if you weren't interested in the trader's life, could
> > you turn around and sell it for the bargain price of MCr 28 and retire on
> > the extra few million credits?
and
> I mostly was interested in the question because I wanted
> to use this as part of the story behind how an NPC
> businessman got started, and wondered if most folks found
> it feasable.

Life doesn't begin at the end of the CharGen process. If a 
character has a ship, it's probably because they scrimped 
and saved and dealed for 15-20 years to pay for it. Such a 
character wouldn't "get their start" by selling off the 
ship that they'd worked so hard to pay for, they'd have got 
their start through the work they did to pay the 
downpayment on the Ship. 

Assuming they bought the ship New, and it's now second 
hand, the price you can get for it is probably quite a bit 
less than full price. If the process is anywhere near as 
complex as buying a house, there are probably significant 
lawyer and broker fees as well. (In NZ if you sell a house 
today for 5k more than you paid for it yesterday, you're 
probably making a loss due to Agent and Lawyer fees).

Now as far as campaign justifications for NPC's yeah they 
could sell the ship, but consider that the bank has a 
certain amount of equity in it (80% at brand new) and the 
owner has 20% i.e. they have just sunk 6Mcr (in the 30Mcr 
example) into buying a new ship - selling it so that they 
get 4Mcr minus agent fee's back is not exactly a quick 
profit taking move although they have 4Mcr, they paid 6, 
and are thus losing 2MCr. 

Now it's likely that the Deposit was built up over many 
years, and might be the result of the "Merchants Ship 
Ownership" lottery, so the character never actually _had_ 
the 6Mcr in hand, but you can bet that they've paid it 
either over time or in future subscriptions to the MSO


(sidebar -Merchants Ship Ownership Lottery) -  Merchants 
sign up to this when they join the merchant service. They 
divert a portion of their wages to the MSO every month. 
Once a month (or whatever is feasible)  the MSO does a 
lottery and gives one of the contestants a ship, with the 
proviso that they have to pay the amount owing off to 
the MSO, and keep paying the lottery fee each month.

In the long term, Most people get a ship deposit provided 
for them by the MSO (the longer you've been in the more 
likely you are to get one) but it's still possible to get a 
deposit after only a couple of months - however you have to 
keep paying the deposit contribution to the MSO until 
you've covered the cost.

There are "building societies" in NZ that work a little 
like this. There are rules about how much deposit you get 
(thus limiting the size of the ship you buy) and how much 
contribution you have to make. With the MSO's buying power 
and asset base they can get better prices (Yes, every month 
for the next 40 years we're going to order a ship - what 
discount can we get...) but relies on enough people joining 
to make it possible (If each person kicks in 500 Cr per 
month, then they need at least 12000 members to scrape up 
6Mcr per month - hmm, the numbers need adjusting) 
It's likely that the MSO will keep some of the discount in 
their own pocket to cover organisation costs and to put 
towards the deposit on other ships. If they get 10% then 
although they are lending the owner 6Mcr as deposit, they 
might actually only be paying 3Mcr.

It's supposed to balance out so that over the life of the 
lottery, each person pays off about what the deposit they 
get would have been, so they don't actually make free 
money, but they often get the deposit before they could 
have saved it up themselves. If over their lifetime they 
won't have paid back more than say half the amount, then 
only half the lottery entrants would get a ship over their 
lifetime of paying into the scheme. Maybe that's why only 
some merchants come out of the Merchant service with a 
ship?

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:55:10 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Starport Construction Costs, v2

> > There are three kinds of bases here: Scout way stations, Scout
> > bases, and Naval bases.
> Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>asks 
> I always figured that 80-90% of the facilities of such bases would bein
> orbit.  Is that ludicrous?

I have always figured that most of the Navy base was 
orbital, and most scout bases are on the ground, since 
ground ports have got to be cheaper, and most scout ships 
are streamlined, wheras most serious naval vessels are not 
streamlined.

However after the recent discussion about the 
vulnerabilities of orbital installations, I'm rethinking 
this, though I haven't had too many conclusions yet.

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 15:50:32 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Distinguishing Vilani

Vilani, Solomani, and Zhodani are visually indistinguishable without VERY
close observation.

The easy way to tell whether someone is Vilani is a blood test.
			Blood Types
Subspecies	Predominant	Full Range
Vilani		C, N		C, D, M, N, O
Solomani	A, B, O		A, B, M, N, O, Z

[V&V. p.3]

For non-invasive, you can look at their circadian cycle; a person who is
adapted to the vilani lifestyle will have a 32 hour cycle, of 8hrs work, 8
hours rest, 8 more work, and 8 of sleep, as opposed to the typical solomani
2 hours rest, 8 work, 6 more rest, 8 sleep.

Realism must be brought here, for just a minute: Human Circadian Cycles on
earth are roughly 23-27 hours dependant on individual, assuming a lack of
obvious environmental time referent (i.e., sunlight and clocks). IIRC, the
mean was found to be around 24.6 hours. Living in alaska, where, in
Anchorage, the midsummer sun sets for 2 hours,  and it doesn't get darker
than twighlight, non-working individuals tend to adjust to their own
cycles. I believe that the vilani will have similar variations. I figure
that the only way vilani could have such a long schedule was some genetic
tampering by the Anchients.

another canonical referent for determination is that both vilani and
zhodani have narrower ranges of body types than solomani. Vilani tend to be
more muscular in build, and Zhoe's tend to be tall and thin, with vaguely
slavic or middle-eastern features.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 18:30:13 -0400
From: John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Reaver's Deep

At 10:44 AM 6/9/1998 -0400, you wrote:
>        Gralyn Union (Parts of Eakoi and Drinsaar Subsectors)   

The archives of the TNE-Pocket project, which has
plenty of non-TNE material too, is

ftp.ocf.berkeley.edy/pub/Traveller/TNE-pocket

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get a list of
contents. It's there, because I can connect to it,
but no directory comes up for me. But since if I
connect higher up the heirarchy I also get no listing
of the lower directories, there's something there.

Maybe someone (or several someones) can try to
liberate the archive from it's current lost depths.

JB

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 17:47:51 +0000
From: "Pearson Publishing" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Campaign Builders' Handbook

I just recently built a website with the hopes of collecting campaign 
ideas.  While I've found many that have ton's of 
vehicles/ships/rules, I've found very little with idea generators.  I 
posted a message board for people to leave their campaign ideas on.

> >P.S.  This as well as several other threads on TML have led me to the
> >conclusion that what we all really, really want to have/write/use/etc. is a
> >comprehensive book about running instellar campaigns against a very large
> >backdrop of both time and space.  A Campaign Builders Handbook if you will.
> >Or perhaps Universe Engineer's Manual.

 
> That is, what resources does anyone know of on the Web pertaining to the
> art and science of campaign building?  I have copies of Analog articles on
> psychohistory, for instance, but those are long out of print, and may have
> been superceded.




Visit the Computer Profits Website
A wealth of information
http://www.computerprofits.virtual-spaces.com
James Pearson / Pearson Publishing
pearsonpub@computerprofits.virtual-spaces.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 19:15:01 -0400
From: John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Reaver's Deep

At 06:30 PM 6/9/1998 -0400, I wrote:
>
>ftp.ocf.berkeley.edy/pub/Traveller/TNE-pocket

That's .edu not .edy, sorry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 21:07:11 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Reaver's Deep 

> The archives of the TNE-Pocket project, which has
> plenty of non-TNE material too, is
> 
> ftp.ocf.berkeley.edy/pub/Traveller/TNE-pocket
> 
> Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get a list of
> contents. It's there, because I can connect to it,
> but no directory comes up for me. But since if I
> connect higher up the heirarchy I also get no listing
> of the lower directories, there's something there.

I couldn't get a listing, either, but a 'get *' got some of the stuff down.  <grin>

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 21:08:30 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Campaign Builders' Handbook 

> I just recently built a website with the hopes of collecting campaign 
> ideas.  While I've found many that have ton's of 
> vehicles/ships/rules, I've found very little with idea generators.  I 
> posted a message board for people to leave their campaign ideas on.

URL??

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 18:09:44 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Does anybody know?

>What is the name of the Imperial Intellegence Service?

Now, does anyone know the name of the one for the Sword Worlds?????
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 21:14:08 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Trivia

Knorbes?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 18:14:17 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Starports and traffic control

Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:50:23 +0200 (MET DST), Tommy Grav
<tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
> I've been following the pirate debate and have a question. Does everyone
> require all starship traffic to go to the main (one or more) starport(s)?
> Is it possible for ships to land on private estates, small landingpads
> besides factories, smaller airports and so on?  

I make this a local decision since import duties and restrictions are
local jurisdiction.  If it was near a busy port, he would need to link
in with traffic control.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 21:15:09 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Reaver's Deep 

> The archives of the TNE-Pocket project, which has
> plenty of non-TNE material too, is
> 
> ftp.ocf.berkeley.edu/pub/Traveller/TNE-pocket
> 
> Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get a list of
> contents. It's there, because I can connect to it,
> but no directory comes up for me. But since if I
> connect higher up the heirarchy I also get no listing
> of the lower directories, there's something there.

Also, there's 2 directories there, Bundles and APPROVED.  You won't get a 
listing, but there's still stuff there you can loot.  <grin>

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 09:12:53 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: MT Spreadsheets

Kagehira@aol.com wrote:
> 
>         I have a set of MT spreadsheets available in Lotus format. They include all
> known errata, and have been relatively extensively tested. There are 5 of them
> (TL11-15).
> 
>         If there's enough interest I could post them to my web site for FTPing
> (especially if someone could give me the code on how to do that). Also if
> someone would like to convert them to Excel, I'd be interested.
> 
> Bryan
Hi Bryan

I use Excel 4 and would gladly try helping you convert it to that
format. I should be able to import the file(s) directly in Lotus format
and I believe excel will convert same, either directly or with a minimum
amount of reformatting. I do not have a web site, but would make the
converted file available, however possible, if you would not be able to
receive it back in Excel format.

If you do not receive other, more knowledgeable replies, you can contact
me and I'll do what I can to help.

Jim

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #570
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 10 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 571



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

HTH combat (help)
Re: ?
Re: ?
Re: Starport Construction Costs, v2
Re: Starport Construction Costs, v2
Re: Recontact (was: nothing)
Re: How things wear out
Re: Gravity
Re: How dangerous is..... 
Signing off
Re nothing
Re: Images
Problem with Andy Akins FFS2.3
Re: Problem with Andy Akins FFS2.3
Re: Problem with Andy Akins FFS2.3
Re: Re nothing
Re:  Recontact (was: nothing)
Re: Does anybody know?
Re: Problem with Andy Akins FFS2.3
Virgin Planet [was: Recontact]
Foreven Sector
Re: Foreven Sector
re: Distinguishing the Vilani
Re: Distinguishing the Vilani 
Re: Old TMLs and TMLers
Re: Old TMLs and TMLers
Taxation and Military Spending

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 18:27:28 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: HTH combat (help)

This is directed to any others on the list who felt as I did that this
was getting too complicated. Tsykoduk, you agreed with me. If you have
had the chance to read all my posts, let me know. Am I a way off base or
am I making some semblance of sense. I'm beginning to feel that I am not
seeing what I am reading or that I don't understand either what I have
read or what I have put down in rebuttle.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:20:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: ?

In mail you write:

> ObTrav: Recontact adventure--a planet populated only by women, who
> reproduce by artificial means and ensure that no embryo with a "Y"
> chromosome is created ... how will they react to a crew composed of
> James Kirk and a few other suchlikes ...

Or for an example of a purely *male* society, read Bujold's "Ethan of
Athos". I can actually *see* Athos as part of the Imperium. They'd have
joined with some rather odd additions to the normal "treaty of
admission", but they'd be better "protected" from the danger of women
by joining than by staying independent. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:24:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: ?

In mail you write:

>>ObTrav: Recontact adventure--a planet populated only by women, who
>>reproduce by artificial means and ensure that no embryo with a "Y"
>>chromosome is created ... how will they react to a crew composed of
>>James Kirk and a few other suchlikes ...
>
> Didn't Lois McMaster Bujold do something on this, with a wolrd full of males
> reproduced by artificial means and only a few women kept around for the
> "Nobility". Can't remember the name but i think it had Sparta in it?

Not exactly. "Ethan of Athos" has the all male planet, but they have
*no* women, nor do they want any. They don't have a "nobility" either.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:12:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starport Construction Costs, v2

In mail you write:

> II. PARKBAYS
>
> Ships are moved via maglev rail to parkbays, which are circular
> platforms with 11 bays, each of which can hold a ship of up to
> 1000 tons.  Maglev rail enters the parkbay and runs in a circle
> around the inside, with a branch into each bay.  In the center is a
> single shielded vertical liftoff platform (also connected to
> the maglev system).

You *don't* go moving ships that are "tail-sitters" that casually. And
since there are a fair number of ships using reaction drives, you want
a wall (berm) surrounding the pad. That makes things very difficult for
your rail system.

Check the archives for a post I dea a year or two back about landing
bays.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:07:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starport Construction Costs, v2

In mail you write:

> Robert Eaglestone wrote:
>
>> II. PARKBAYS
>
> Can't say I like this idea much.  I'd rather leave my ship in orbit
> and use an air raft or something for landfall.  Wouldn't a large
> network of individual or one well partitioned landing pad be
> sufficient.  Especially at larger ports where simulanteous launches
> might be common.

I didn't like it much either. You *don't* go hauling around a ship
that's sitting on its tail without a *lot* of hassles. It's *not*
something that'd be done as a mater of course.

Also, since some ships use things like HEPlar or other reaction drives,
you want a substantial barrier around the landing pad, for noise
abatement if nothing else.

Dig through the archives. I posted a good description of what the
landing bays at a port might be like a year or two back. They'll be
well spread out, and surrounded by thick berms of earth and concrete.
With a lot of storage and servicing stuff built into the berms. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:28:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Recontact (was: nothing)

In mail you write:

> Also the 1950s or early 1960s novel *Virgin Planet*.  Can't remember who
> wrote it, oddly enough.  Seems like it was Ted Sturgeon, but that's just
> a guess.  Irritates me, because I remember it was one of my favorite
> writers, but now I can't quite place his name.

"Virgin Planet" was by Poul Anderson. But it was one of at *least* 3
books with much the same plot. Another one was by A. Bertram Chandler,
IIRC.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:30:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: How things wear out

In mail you write:

> Someone was mentioning how a 2 century old starship built at
> TL9 would be useless, but a TL15 starship that old would still be
> (at least somewhat) functional.
>
> I'm not sure this would be the case. I think it would matter _when_ in
> the tech level the ship was built. A TL9 starship built near the end of
> the tech level, with mature and well-understood technologies, should
> far outlast a TL15 starship built out of experimental designs by a
> TL14.99999 society.
>
> The operational life of a DC3 vs the operational life of a 747, for example.

Good choice of example, as the DC-3 has that rarity an *unlimited* type
airworthiness certificate. That is, unlike other planes, the *class* is
certified as being flyable *forever* as long as you keep up the
maintenance. Normally, there's a cut-off date after which planes of a
given type are no longer considered airworthy *regardless* of what
you've done. 

With the DC-3, they kept pushing the date into the future, and finally
gave up and made it "unlimited". In fact, I think that someone has
actually started *producing* them again, as there's enough demand to
make it worthwhile. 

I figure that most "older TL" designs being used in the Imperium are
similar. They're based on things learned over *centuries*, so as long
as you keep up the maintenance, nobody is especially worried about how
old the ship is.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:56:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Gravity

In mail you write:

> How fast does gravity travel? Or better yet, If I were to cause a
> gravitational distrubance in some manner, how fast would someone who is
> "tuned into" the event be aware that it has occured?

First thing is that "causing" a gravitational disturbance is *hard*.
Because gravity is so weak (yes, weak! It takes the mass of a planet to
generate a gravity field that can be beaten by a toy magnet), you have
to move a lot of mass very fast. And preferrably, the mass should be
very dense (neutronium type dense).

About the only thing that's going to generate a noticable gravity wave
with imperial tech is a ship jumping (in or out).

Gravity waves will propogate at lightspeed.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 22:12:29 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: How dangerous is..... 

> Kagehira@aol.com writes:
> >      And while reliving the old archives:
> > 
> >      How dangerous is a black globe ship entering a world's atmosphere?
> 
> Per FF&S, it appears that an active black globe entering atmosphere will absorb
> energy from the atmosphere until it overloads, at which point you now have a
> ship with overloaded capacitors--which will probably have taken enough damage
> that it will crash.  This is presumably about as dangerous as any other
> spaceship crash of comparable velocity and tonnage.

Per CT/HG2, when a black globe overloads, the ship carrying it *vaporises*.  
This is because it sinks every bloody joule of energy that impacts it, and 
this includes thermal and intertial, and if there's no place to dump the 
energy, you get the overload.

FWIW, IMNSFBHO, black globes *should* be rare and hard to find.  No *WAY* 
would I let a bunch of PCs get their hands on one!!!!  They're just too much 
'juice' for good game balance.  YMMV.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 22:20:10 EDT
From: CMcknight@aol.com
Subject: Signing off

Due to circumstances beyond my control, I need to get the list administrator
to unsubscribe me.  I'm apparently doing something wrong in my attempts to
unsubscribe.  In any case, it's been a pleasure and a privilege to participate
little as I've been able to.

Clear ether!

Signing off.....

Chuck McKnight
cmcknight@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:38:45 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re nothing

"Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com> responds:

>From: David J. Golden <goldendj@pcisys.net>
>To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
>Date: Monday, June 08, 1998 11:03 PM
>Subject: Re:
>
>>ObTrav: Recontact adventure--a planet populated only by women, who
>>reproduce by artificial means and ensure that no embryo with a "Y"
>>chromosome is created ... how will they react to a crew composed of
>>James Kirk and a few other suchlikes ...
>
>
>Didn't Lois McMaster Bujold do something on this, with a wolrd full of males
>reproduced by artificial means and only a few women kept around for the
>"Nobility". Can't remember the name but i think it had Sparta in it?

Check out "Ethan of Athos" by Lois McMaster Bujold for the Male-only, and
"Virgin Planet" by Poul Anderson for the Female-only...

GypsyComet

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:42:18 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Images

Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net> asks:

>I was wondering if anyone has the Zhodani Consulate logo scanned or knows
>what the colors are of it.  Also, I am looking for a scan of the Duke of
>Regina's own Huscarls shield from "The Spinward Marches Campaign"
>
>And a good image of the Imperial sunburst would be nice, too.

 Two versions of the Zhodani trefoil are on my site:

 http://members.aol.com/gypsycomet/zhomain.html

 has the black version, and any of the links from there have one paled down
to background grey.  The trefoil has never been printed in any color other
that black, so I assume that it is the form that matters, not the color...

GypsyComet

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:09:09 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Problem with Andy Akins FFS2.3

I'm trying to design a TL 9 missile using Andy Akins FFS spreadsheet and I 
keep getting an error in the Thruster and Heplar fuel sections. I have installed 
ANTR but I keep getting an error in the other two drive sections. Can anybody 
help?

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++++ su+ ge

************************************************************
Of course its safe, I made it myself
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:30:53 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Problem with Andy Akins FFS2.3

At 04:09 PM 10/06/98 +1200, Andrew wrote:
>I'm trying to design a TL 9 missile using Andy Akins FFS spreadsheet and I 
>keep getting an error in the Thruster and Heplar fuel sections. I have installed 
>ANTR but I keep getting an error in the other two drive sections. Can anybody 
>help?

Isn't HEPLaR TL-10+?

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:07:01 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Problem with Andy Akins FFS2.3

Date sent:      	Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:30:53 +1200
To:             	traveller@MPGN.COM
From:           	Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject:        	Re: Problem with Andy Akins FFS2.3
Send reply to:  	traveller@MPGN.COM

> At 04:09 PM 10/06/98 +1200, Andrew wrote:
> >I'm trying to design a TL 9 missile using Andy Akins FFS spreadsheet and I 
> >keep getting an error in the Thruster and Heplar fuel sections. I have
> installed 
> >ANTR but I keep getting an error in the other two drive sections. Can
> anybody 
> >help?

> Isn't HEPLaR TL-10+?

Yes, which is why I'm not using Heplar. I'm trying to use ANTR but whenever I 
enter anything in the ANTR box it causes an error in the Heplar section, also 
the error in the Thrusters section simply is there when I drop the missile TL 
below 11.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++++ su+ ge

************************************************************
Of course its safe, I made it myself
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 23:06:50 -0600
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Re nothing

At 11:38 PM 6/9/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Check out "Ethan of Athos" by Lois McMaster Bujold for the Male-only, and
>"Virgin Planet" by Poul Anderson for the Female-only...
>
>GypsyComet
>


Keith Laumer also wrote a well crafted short story (female-only) entitled: 
"The War Against the Yukks" (1965 Galaxy & reprinted in 1982 in the back of
"Worlds of the Imperium").

L8r,
Paul

P.S. Door-prize for those who can guess who the "Yukks" are :)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:39:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re:  Recontact (was: nothing)

chet-el@juno.com (Chester L Cox) wrote:

>Also the 1950s or early 1960s novel *Virgin Planet*.  Can't remember 
>who wrote it, oddly enough.  Seems like it was Ted Sturgeon, but 
>that's just a guess.  Irritates me, because I remember it was one of 
>my favorite writers, but now I can't quite place his name.

Poul Anderson wrote Virgin Planet.  For some truly *awesome* recontact
fiction try his story "The Sharing of the Flesh", or even better, his
novel _The Night Face_ written in 1958 and still a classic. Both are
stories about genetic drift on lost colony worlds, *perfect* for just
after the Long Night. 

>>ObTrav: Recontact adventure--a planet populated only by women, 
>>who reproduce by artificial means and ensure that no embryo with a 
>>"Y" chromosome is created ... how will they react to a crew composed 
>>of James Kirk and a few other suchlikes ...
>>
>>Didn't Lois McMaster Bujold do something on this, with a world full of
>>males reproduced by artificial means and only a few women kept around 
>>for the "Nobility". Can't remember the name but i think it had Sparta 
>>in it?

_Ethan of Athos_ and it had no women at all on it, they were all gay and
women were semi-legendary monsters.  There was a great scene where Ethan
(the protagonist) was in a seedy starport bar attempting to recruit the
locals emigrate to wonderful Athos, far from all thos dangerous women.  He
couldn't understand why they first laughed at him and then chased him out
angrily. 


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 03:12:51 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Does anybody know?

At 06:09 PM 6/9/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>What is the name of the Imperial Intellegence Service?
>
>Now, does anyone know the name of the one for the Sword Worlds?????

The intelligence section for the Sverdaheimssambandid is called
Njosnadeild.  This is part of the Geimdeild sambandshersins (Combined
Confederation Army)

Have English-Icelandic dictionary, will travel.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:51:14 +0200
From: Deligiannidis Nikolaos <nikolaos.deligiannidis@stud.tu-muenchen.de>
Subject: Re: Problem with Andy Akins FFS2.3

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

> I'm trying to design a TL 9 missile using Andy Akins FFS spreadsheet and I
> keep getting an error in the Thruster and Heplar fuel sections. I have installed
> ANTR but I keep getting an error in the other two drive sections. Can anybody
> help?

ANTR is TL-10

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:16:55 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Virgin Planet [was: Recontact]

chet-el@juno.com (Chester L Cox) wrote on the subject of worlds populated
only by women:

>Also the 1950s or early 1960s novel *Virgin Planet*.  Can't remember who
>wrote it, oddly enough.  Seems like it was Ted Sturgeon, but that's just
>a guess.  Irritates me, because I remember it was one of my favorite
>writers, but now I can't quite place his name.



'Virgin Planet' was by Poul Anderson.  My copy was published in London by
Mayflower in 1969 if that's any help.  155 pages.


Hope that helps

tc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:24:12 EDT
From: Qstor@aol.com
Subject: Foreven Sector

Does anyone know where this is mapped out????

Thanks.

Mike

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:54:13 +0100 (BST)
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Foreven Sector

The two sheet publication in Arrival Vengece called Imperiallines no 1,
or surf those digital waves to :-

http://members.aol.com/gypsycomet/iakrdot.html

There were supposed to be more Imperiallines , dose anyone know if there
were, and if you have one could you mail me.

Ewan

	Ewan Quibell
	Data Communications Technician        The Game's afoot:
	Computer Centre                       Follow your spirit, and apon
	University of Brighton                  this charge
                                              Cry 'God for Harry, England,
	E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              and Saint George !'

                                                    Henry V 3:1
	#include<stddisclamer.h>                    W. Shakespeare

	My spelling is entierly due to dyslexia, typoes and poetic license


On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 Qstor@aol.com wrote:

> Does anyone know where this is mapped out????
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Mike
> 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:50:13 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Distinguishing the Vilani

William F. Hostman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
another canonical referent for determination is that both vilani and
zhodani have narrower ranges of body types than solomani. Vilani tend to be
more muscular in build, and Zhoe's tend to be tall and thin, with vaguely
slavic or middle-eastern features.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Probably a result of the "founder effect". Both the Vilani's and the Zho
were the result of a relatively small founding population, cut off from the
rest of humanity for millenia. Since the genetic pool is so small, the traits
of the few individuals will be markedly present in the descendents, and
the variation will remain very small compared to the population that wasn't
cut off.

Of course Grandfather could have done it himself - but it's well known in
population genetics.

ObTrav: How many people does it take to make a viable breeding
population on a colony world cut off by a long night? If your planet is
a bunch of people under the minimum, what do you do? Change
social codes on reproduction? Take your last spaceship and go
to other worlds on their way into barbarism and kidnap the good
looking natives? 

Mars needs women!!  ;)

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:42:47 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Distinguishing the Vilani 

> ObTrav: How many people does it take to make a viable breeding
> population on a colony world cut off by a long night? If your planet is
> a bunch of people under the minimum, what do you do? Change
> social codes on reproduction? Take your last spaceship and go
> to other worlds on their way into barbarism and kidnap the good
> looking natives? 

Couple hundred, maybe a couple thousand.  Depends on your tech level & your 
attitudes towards eugenics & genetic engineering.  Methinks if you're not 
*too* squeamish about weeding out the local gene pool, you can get by with a 
smaller base population, and you can always geneer marginal improvements and 
recessive fixes in later...

> Mars needs women!!  ;)

Heheh

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:44:25 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Old TMLs and TMLers

And I tough I was an old fart, having been subscribed for a mere 4
years...

Anyway, I can't let this one pass by. Mark Cook wrote:
> The Sunbane (at U. of Western Ontario, Waterloo, CA) and Metolius
> (Tektronix, Beaverton, OR) archives are both toast.  They were wiped
> by their respective owners years ago.

Sunbane was indeed at Western, which is in _London_, not Waterloo.
Waterloo is home to two universities, Wilfrid Laurier and my
alma mater, the University of Waterloo. For ghu's sake, don't
confuse them unless you want hordes of angry engineering students
descending upon you, singing school songs off key.

This mistake is fairly understandable though, as I though Stanford
was in Boston for the longest time...

ObTrav: How big is a big university in the 3I? Maybe one of those garden
worlds with a small population and a wierd government type is, in fact,
entirely owned by an old, old university and is essentially one big
campus... all that empty wilderness might not only be great for zoology
majors, but for the odd, you know, pirate base...

- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com
               "Software Development Productivity"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:56:42 -0500 (CDT)
From: Alan Peery <peery@io.com>
Subject: Re: Old TMLs and TMLers

On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Ethan Henry wrote:

> ObTrav: How big is a big university in the 3I? Maybe one of those garden
> worlds with a small population and a wierd government type is, in fact,
> entirely owned by an old, old university and is essentially one big
> campus... all that empty wilderness might not only be great for zoology
> majors, but for the odd, you know, pirate base...

And instead of going to Palm Beach for Spring Break, the really
adventurous students go to Hull Breach?

<start evasion-6, there are flying vegetables... :-)>

Alan

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 1998 09:52 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Taxation and Military Spending

Are there web links that break down the military budgets
and spending of some of the world's budgets?

If 1% of the US budget is spent on military, we'd have
over 60 billion dollars to spend on the military.  How
does this translate to purchasing ships, per year?

I.E. 60 billion dollars could buy 30 stealth fighters,
and no paychecks or maintenance, right?

Does anyone have numbers spent on
	* people
	* equipment
	* vehicles
	* maintenance
	* etc?

	for

	* army
	* navy
	* air force
	* marines
	* NASA
	* etc?

?

Rob

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #571
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 10 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 572



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Taxation and Military Spending
Taxation and Military Spending, expanded
Re: Taxation and Military Spending, expanded
Re: Problem with Andy Akins FFS2.3
TU using Book2ish CT ship designs
Re: Old TMLs and TMLers
The DC-3 (was: How things wear out)
Re: How dangerous is.....
re: Distinguishing the Vilani
Re: Images
Re: Starbases
MT Spreadsheets
Re: How dangerous is.....
Re: Campaign Builders' Handbook (long)
Re: How dangerous is..... 
Re: Starport Construction Costs, v2
Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... )
Re: MT Spreadsheets

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 1998 10:13 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Taxation and Military Spending

AH, here we go, the Fiscal 1998 National Defense Budget.
http://www.clw.org/pub/clw/ef/dodblu98.html

Looks like 8% of the military budget is spent on ships...
what do you think?

Rob
- ---

$265.3 billion
	Pentagon Budget
	Intelligence Budget
	DOE
	Military programs
	some etceteras

Nuclear:
B-2 bomber: 			625 million
Trident II: 			368 million
Ballistic missile defense: 	3.5 billion

Conventional:
Other Aircraft:			10 billion
Naval:				6 billion
Radar + satellite:		1 billion

Personnel:
1,431,000 - active military personnel 
892,000 - selected reserve 
772,000 - Defense Department civilians 

3,095,000 - TOTAL MILITARY, RESERVE AND CIVILIANS IN FY 1998 

Force Levels:
10 active Army divisions (down from 18 in 1990) 
42 Army Reserve component brigades (down from 57 in 1990) 
3 active & 1 Reserve Marine Corps divisions (no reductions) 
11 deployed aircraft carriers & 1 trainer/reserve (down from 15 and 1 in 1990) 
346 battle force ships (down from 546 in 1990) 
10 active and 1 reserve Navy carrier air wings (down from 13 and 2 in 1990) 
3 active and 1 reserve Marine Corps air wings 
13 active and 7 reserve Air Force fighter wings (down from 24 and 12 in 1990) 

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 1998 10:26 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Taxation and Military Spending, expanded

AH, here we go, the Fiscal 1998 National Defense Budget.
http://www.clw.org/pub/clw/ef/dodblu98.html

Looks like the military budget might be around 4.5%, 
8% of which is spent on ships... what do you think?

		Ship Budget
Mil Budget	6%	8%	10%
1%		0.0006	0.0008	0.001
2%		0.0012	0.0016	0.002
3%		0.0018	0.0024	0.003
4%		0.0024	0.0032	0.004
5%		0.003	0.004	0.005
6%		0.0036	0.0048	0.006
7%		0.0042	0.0056	0.007
8%		0.0048	0.0064	0.008

Earth D867947-8

Mil Budget  = Cr500 * 5 000 000 000 = TCr 2.5
Ship Budget = BCr 8.75

and now, in Imperial credits:
	 BCr 3

Not bad, that's 10 SDBs per year.


Rob
- ---

$265.3 billion
	Pentagon Budget
	Intelligence Budget
	DOE
	Military programs
	some etceteras

Nuclear:
B-2 bomber: 			625 million
Trident II: 			368 million
Ballistic missile defense: 	3.5 billion

Conventional:
Other Aircraft:			10 billion
Naval:				6 billion
Radar + satellite:		1 billion

Personnel:
1,431,000 - active military personnel 
892,000 - selected reserve 
772,000 - Defense Department civilians 

3,095,000 - TOTAL MILITARY, RESERVE AND CIVILIANS IN FY 1998 

Force Levels:
10 active Army divisions (down from 18 in 1990) 
42 Army Reserve component brigades (down from 57 in 1990) 
3 active & 1 Reserve Marine Corps divisions (no reductions) 
11 deployed aircraft carriers & 1 trainer/reserve (down from 15 and 1 in 1990) 
346 battle force ships (down from 546 in 1990) 
10 active and 1 reserve Navy carrier air wings (down from 13 and 2 in 1990) 
3 active and 1 reserve Marine Corps air wings 
13 active and 7 reserve Air Force fighter wings (down from 24 and 12 in 1990) 

                      

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:50:56 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Taxation and Military Spending, expanded

>Mil Budget  = Cr500 * 5 000 000 000 = TCr 2.5
>Ship Budget = BCr 8.75

There is no such thing as a BCr (Billion Credit??)
Use GCr (Giga Credit).
(Sorry to be nitpicking)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:43:39 -0500
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Re: Problem with Andy Akins FFS2.3

Actually, it is a bug :)

I'm in the process of fixing it right now, and the fixed version will be
posted later today (v2.4). I'll post the list when it's ready.

Can someone (Bruce?) confirm the TL of AND drive?

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+  |
|       vi+ da+                                                      |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                           |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:41:15 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: TU using Book2ish CT ship designs

Once upon a time, someone built a 1200 ton warship and called it
a Battlecruiser...

400 to 800 ton craft are called "Cruisers". 5000 ton ships are the biggest
we can make, and even the best TL15 Z-class drives can only make these
5ktn craft go 2G and Jump-2.

I'm writing, of course, about a TU that bases ship designs around
CT Book2 design rules. Add in the least possible quantities of
High Guard - bay weaponry, particle accelerator or fusion gun
turrets/barbettes, maybe even a launch tube for your 5ktn Fleet
Carrier. Armored hulls perhaps...but I like the drives from CT Book2,
I was never comfortable with Battleships that changed vectors
as nimbly as the most agile starfighter.

Imagine a Traveller universe where something about the nature of
jumpspace creates a 5ktn limit on what can go through the hole, and
a maximum stable power output for jump drives & reactionless
maneuver drives that limits how far these ships can jump, how fast they
can go. Jump-2/2G for 5ktn, Jump-4/4G for 3ktn(4ktn?) ships, Jump-6/6G
for smaller ships.

5000ton ships are Dreadnaughts, lumbering through space at 2G's,
able to carry bay weaponry but vulnerable to mass starfighter attacks.
A 6G, Jump-6 fleet intruder is possible at 2000tons, a deep striking
Cruiser. 400dtn system defense boats are something for a battlefleet
to fear.

5000dtns is also a limit for cargo ships. How many ships need to call
at Regina every day if the biggest one can only carry ~3500dtns of
cargo?

How do you invade a world if the best ship you can bring is a 5ktn
battleship with a 1ktn meson spinal and a couple of 100tn missile bays?
The best mobile thing the defender can use is also 5ktn 2G, but he can
have armed asteroid stations and starbases as big as he can build them.

It's not as gearheaded or intricate as later versions, nor are the results
as detailed. A universe like this would be more created for the players
than for the fleet commanders - the ships are of a more human scale.

Just some thoughts I've been noodling around with...I sure would miss
using my 60ktn Azhanti High Lightning deck plans, though.... 


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:53:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Old TMLs and TMLers

Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com> writes:

> And I tough I was an old fart, having been subscribed for a mere 4
> years...
> 
> Anyway, I can't let this one pass by. Mark Cook wrote:
> > The Sunbane (at U. of Western Ontario, Waterloo, CA) and Metolius
> > (Tektronix, Beaverton, OR) archives are both toast.  They were wiped
> > by their respective owners years ago.
> 
> Sunbane was indeed at Western, which is in _London_, not Waterloo.
> Waterloo is home to two universities, Wilfrid Laurier and my
> alma mater, the University of Waterloo. For ghu's sake, don't
> confuse them unless you want hordes of angry engineering students
> descending upon you, singing school songs off key.
> 
> This mistake is fairly understandable though, as I though Stanford
> was in Boston for the longest time...

Mea Culpa, Ethan.  I *knew* that too, but brain farts happen.

When I first joined the TML, there was no centralized list-server.
Each member had to keep his/her *own* alias-list of all the other
TMLers and mail to that alias!  You can image the "Chinese Firedrill"(tm)
that took place whenever there was an a) addition, b) deletion, c)
address change.  Ah, the good old days: they *SUCKED*! :^)

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting *  shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
       "Where am I... and what am I doing in this handbasket?"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:51:48 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: The DC-3 (was: How things wear out)

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

> Good choice of example, as the DC-3 has that rarity an *unlimited* type
> airworthiness certificate. That is, unlike other planes, the *class* is
> certified as being flyable *forever* as long as you keep up the
> maintenance. Normally, there's a cut-off date after which planes of a
> given type are no longer considered airworthy *regardless* of what
> you've done. 

Thanks for that information; I did not know that.  Here in the San
Francisco area, the Otis Spunkmeyer cookie company has two DC-3s that
give flying tours of the area.  I'm planning on doing it sometime soon,
maybe this summer.  I don't know how old the planes are.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:05:22 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: How dangerous is.....

> From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>

> > >      How dangerous is a black globe ship entering a world's atmosphere?
> > 
> > Per FF&S, it appears that an active black globe entering atmosphere will absorb
> > energy from the atmosphere until it overloads, at which point you now have a
 
> Per CT/HG2, when a black globe overloads, the ship carrying it *vaporises*.  
> This is because it sinks every bloody joule of energy that impacts it, and 

How long would it take for a black globe to absorb so much energy from
the atmosphere that it would overload the capacitors?  I think a very
long time.  

Don't forget that you can flicker the black globe and discharge energy
during the "off" part of the cycle.  This should make the air force of
the TL 7 society that you're surveilling very nervous -- here's
something showing up and disappearing from radar screens, and giving off
little bursts of energy.  "It looks like it exists in two phases, sir --
energy for a few nanoseconds, then mass for a few, then energy again.  I
don't know what the hell it is."

I don't remember whether you can see out of a black globe when it's on,
or only during the off phases, but it seems that a black-globe equipped
ship should be able to do some interesting and close-up research on
solar and gas giant atmospheres.  

- --Glenn


"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." --   Dr. Hunter S.
Thompson

At my last job, we used to say, "when the going gets tough, the tough go
to lunch."

 |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

Sorry, there's no grounds to sue you for being a certified public
nuisance.  You'll have to annoy someone specifically, and make sure you
have enough money or insurance for it to be worthwhile.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:26:10 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: re: Distinguishing the Vilani

> From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
 
> ObTrav: How many people does it take to make a viable breeding
> population on a colony world cut off by a long night? If your planet is
> a bunch of people under the minimum, what do you do? Change
> social codes on reproduction? Take your last spaceship and go
> to other worlds on their way into barbarism and kidnap the good
> looking natives? 
> 
> Mars needs women!!  ;)

Wasn't that TNE?  Smash & Grab?  Space Vikings?  What else were you
grabbing?  Why else were you going a-viking?

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:16:52 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Images

> From: GypsyComet@aol.com
> 
>  Two versions of the Zhodani trefoil are on my site:
 
>  has the black version, and any of the links from there have one paled down
> to background grey.  The trefoil has never been printed in any color other
> that black, so I assume that it is the form that matters, not the color...

I think you're right, for the same reason that there is no "official"
color to the Imperial sunburst:  different species see colors
differently, so what looks impressive or official or whatever to species
A may look garish or funny or disgusting or even invisible to species
B.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:33:55 EDT
From: JLAROSEE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starbases

Hi-
   I've a reference for some of the questions regarding starbase construction.
It's:
      FIFTY STARBASES: Essential Mapping Systems for Planetary Landings
      Judges Guild #480
      copyright 1981

   An example of what's inside:
    Orbital Station
   " The standard category Orbital Station has facilities for accommodating up
to 1,000 passengers and at least 500 work crew. Scshuttle service to the
planet below is available. Small craft are available for hire and a Type A
Free Trader will be available for hire on a roll of 7+. Other types of
commercial standard vessels will be available on a roll of 11+. Refined fuel,
water, and basic food supplies are always available. On a roll of 9+ luxury
foodsupplies are available. Spare parts for most types of small craft are
available and repair services for small craft are available on a roll of 7+."

   Needless to say, this goes on and on describing other size stations and
orbital ports (for construction) and the services at each. Also has hex maps
of various ground stations. Anyway, good reference to get things started.

     Jay

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:51:05 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: MT Spreadsheets

I also have an MT ship design spreadsheet, finally ready for 1.0 release.

I'll email it to those who request.  With sufficient demand I may be able
to put it on a web site.

The format is Excel 5.0.

Bye.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:59:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: How dangerous is.....

Glenn M. Goffin, Esq. writes:
> 
> How long would it take for a black globe to absorb so much energy from
> the atmosphere that it would overload the capacitors?  I think a very
> long time.  

Per both CT and FF&S this happens extremely fast -- for practical purposes you
can assume that entering atmosphere with a black globe will destroy the black
globe generator and the capacitors, and will probably cripple or destroy the
ship.  Assuming you place limits on throughput (which FF&S does, CT doesn't but
also doesn't deal with time scales where it matters) a thousand ton ship moving
at 100 meters/second will absorb a couple of gigajoules per second, which will
overload it extremely quickly.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:06:52 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Campaign Builders' Handbook (long)

Campaign Notes - some of the material I use for reference.

Sources:

Flynn, Michael F., "An Introduction to Psychohistory", Analog, April-
May, 1989.

Ibid., "Pson of Psychohistory", Analog, can't find the date on my copy.

Goodall, Brian, The Penquin Dictionary of Human Geography, 1987

What follows are rules of thumb, based on empirical data.  The "why" is
left up to the reader.  Any mistakes of interpretation or summary are,
of course, mine and not the original authors'.


*Half-life of Ideas

There is often a lag of five generations (~137 years) between the 
introduction of an idea and the reaction to it.  Thus, Terra is 
incorporated into the Imperium in 588, rejects it (forming the Solomani
Autonomous Region) in 704 (116 years), gets reintegrated in 950 (246 
years) and goes to war with it (Solomani Rim War) in 990 (50 years). 
The average is 134 +/- 71 years.


*Lifetimes of Unitary States

	first failure	repair		second failure
10%	90 years	25 years	105 years
50%	160 years	70 years	185 years
90%	250 years	130 years	290 years
95%	300 years	155 years	330 years

That is, 50% of all empires experience their first major breakdown within 160
years of founding; 95% will fail within 300 years.  It takes 70 years for 50%
to get going again; 50% will have failed a second time within 185 years.


*Generic Cycles of History
	(based on China, Eastern Mediterranean, and Western Europe)

Years	Period		Imperium
- -1200	Growth I
- -800	Growth II	-650		Sylean Federation
- -400	War I
  -400	  War
  -275	  Peace
  -200	  War
0	Empire I	0		Third Imperium
  0	  Peace
  150	  War		76-120		Pacification Campaigns
  225	  Peace
400	Interregnum		
  400	  War		210-348		Vargr Corridor Campaigns
  525	  Peace
  600	  War		589-622		First Frontier War, Civil War,
					Second Frontier War
800	Rebirth
1200	War II
  1200	  War		879-1002	Third Frontier War, Solomani
					Rim War
  1325	  Peace
  1425	  War		1082-1110	Fourth and Fifth Frontier Wars
			(1117-1130	Final War)
1600	Empire II
  1600	  Peace
  1750	  War		
  1825	  Peace
2000	Interregnum
  2000	  War
  2125	  Peace
  2200	  War

The Rebirth period only lasted for 250 years (622-879) for the Imperium
instead of 400.

The Empire II is usually of foreign derivation (Mongol/Manchu for the 
Chinese, Ottoman Turk for the Middle East).  This model may apply to 
the Ziru Sirka as well (with the Rule of Man as Empire II), but there's
not enough internal chronology to make the comparison.
	

*Economic Cycles

In 1945, Dewey and Dakin proposed that the US economy is dominated by 
the superimposed effects of four cycles:

41-month:  prices of many commodities, prices of many securities, 
	production of many businesses

	Min	Max
	Mar 86	Feb 88
	Aug 89	Jul 91
	Jan 93	Dec 94
	Jun 96	May 97
	Nov 99	Oct 00
	Apr 03	Mar 04
	Sep 06	Aug 07

9-year:  wholesale prices, common stocks, many industrial series

	Min	Max
	1977/8	1982
	1986/7	1991
	1995/6	2000
	2004/5	2009

18.3-year:  real estate, building activity, common stock lows, many
	industrial series

	Min	Max
	1970	1980
	1989	1999
	2007	2017

54-year:  wholesale prices, possibly production and interest rates

	Min	Max
	1736	1763
	1790	1817
	1844	1871
	1898	1925
	1952	1979
	2006	2033
	2060	2087
	2114	2141

This last is the interesting one - major wars occur at the midpoints on
the graph (up or down), minor ones occur at the m
inima.  This suggests 
that the 1st Interstellar War (2113) was abetted by economic factors.

Also notice that all four cycles are due to bottom out sometime around
2005-7.  If the theory holds, this could be a particularly ugly period
- - Cyberpunk, anyone?


*Rank-Size Distribution of Cities

In a mature country, the population of cities is approximately equal to
the population of the largest city divided by each city's rank number.

That is, if the largest city has population P, the second largest will
have population P/2, the third P/3, and so on.  Note that this series
does not converge - you have to set a cut-off somewhere.

In colonial countries, the distribution is dominated by a single,
primate city (usually the capital).  The remainder are just small towns
by comparison.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:53:21 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: How dangerous is..... 

> > From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
> 
> > > >      How dangerous is a black globe ship entering a world's atmosphere?
> > > 
> > > Per FF&S, it appears that an active black globe entering atmosphere will absorb
> > > energy from the atmosphere until it overloads, at which point you now have a
>  
> > Per CT/HG2, when a black globe overloads, the ship carrying it *vaporises*.  
> > This is because it sinks every bloody joule of energy that impacts it, and 
> 
> How long would it take for a black globe to absorb so much energy from
> the atmosphere that it would overload the capacitors?  I think a very
> long time.  

Coming in at escape velocity, with the globe full on, not very long.  Maybe a 
minute at the outside.  You're taking both the kinetic energy of the impact at 
several kilometers/sec times the *MASS* of the ship at impact with the 
atmosphere.  You're also taking on energy from friction of the atmosphere if 
you 'clip' the atmosphere.

> Don't forget that you can flicker the black globe and discharge energy
> during the "off" part of the cycle.  This should make the air force of
> the TL 7 society that you're surveilling very nervous -- here's
> something showing up and disappearing from radar screens, and giving off
> little bursts of energy.  "It looks like it exists in two phases, sir --
> energy for a few nanoseconds, then mass for a few, then energy again.  I
> don't know what the hell it is."

Even at a 50% duty cycle, it would be hard to discharge *ALL* the energy you 
soak up with a black globe while manuvering in atmosphere.  You'd have to 
discharge every energy weapon at once, overloaded, to make a dent.

> I don't remember whether you can see out of a black globe when it's on,
> or only during the off phases, but it seems that a black-globe equipped
> ship should be able to do some interesting and close-up research on
> solar and gas giant atmospheres.  

Black globes are impenetrable to *ALL* energy in *BOTH* directions.  That 
includes visible light.  And do you *REALLY* want to try and take that black 
globe into a *STAR*?????????????????  You go ahead; I'll sit back a hundred 
million klicks out, taking bets on how many milliseconds it takes you to die.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:18:19 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Starport Construction Costs, v2

>From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
>Subject: Re: Starport Construction Costs, v2
...
>However after the recent discussion about the 
>vulnerabilities of orbital installations, I'm rethinking 
>this, though I haven't had too many conclusions yet.

  It's probably not a big deal either way, as only a major naval element
can exploit the presumed vulnerability (although with thrusters anyone
can deploy a 0.01 C empty beer bottle for yucks). Several hundred meters
of rock (preferably under an atmosphere?) goes a long way towards keeping
non-shipyard assets safe, though.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:28:43 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... )

At 01:53 PM 6/10/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Black globes are impenetrable to *ALL* energy in *BOTH* directions.  That 
>includes visible light.  And do you *REALLY* want to try and take that black 
>globe into a *STAR*?????????????????  You go ahead; I'll sit back a hundred 
>million klicks out, taking bets on how many milliseconds it takes you to die.

It is a shame the black globes were so limited, compared to the Langston
Field from "The Mote in God's Eye" and associatedworks.  I thought it was
kind of interesting to pull picket duty in a star.  

Hmmm, perhaps that is where those pseky pirates have the hidden bases...

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:35:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael and MJ Houghton <herveus@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: MT Spreadsheets

Howdy!

> I also have an MT ship design spreadsheet, finally ready for 1.0 release.
> 
> I'll email it to those who request.  With sufficient demand I may be able
> to put it on a web site.

If you were to send to herveus@access.digex.net, I'd be grateful.
> 
> The format is Excel 5.0.
> 
> Bye.
> 
> Pete
> 
yours,
Michael

- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@access.digex.net  | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.access.digex.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #572
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 10 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 573



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... )
Pirate income options
Black Globes
New class of stars...real brown dwarfs...
Re: MT Spreadsheets
Re: Taxation and Military Spending, expanded
Trading Question; What is Superdense?
Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... ) 
Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... ) 
Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... ) 
Re: Starport Construction Costs, v2
Re: TU using Book2ish CT ship designs T-digest V1998 #572
Re: Starport Construction Costs, v2
Re: Starbases
Re: MT Spreadsheets
Re: Taxation and Military Spending
Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... ) 
Re: TU using Book2ish CT ship designs T-digest V1998 #572 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:34:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... )

Kurt Feltenberger writes:
> It is a shame the black globes were so limited, compared to the Langston
> Field from "The Mote in God's Eye" and associatedworks.  I thought it was
> kind of interesting to pull picket duty in a star.  
> 
> Hmmm, perhaps that is where those pseky pirates have the hidden bases...
 
Bah, black globes are incredibly useful devices -- they have the magic power to
violate the second law of thermodynamics by turning heat energy into usable
power.  This has quite remarkable consequences for such things as heat
signature (which is utterly ignored in the rulebook, of course).

To be more reasonable, black globe generators should probably have a
temperature and emit black-body radiation, though that kind of limits their
value as uber-stealth devices.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:52:11 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Pirate income options

>From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
>Subject: Re: Realistic approaches to prevention
...
>What would be the expenses that a pirate (or a band of pirates) would
>reasonably have?

  Perhaps more interestingly, "pirates" have an extra income option if
the state that they're in is well-regulated (i.e., ships are registered,
tracked, and searched at least occasionally). As the pirate ships don't
dare go to ports (either at all or regularly, depending on campaign 
variables) they can rack up some business helping other criminals evade
ship tracking controls.

  So if a trader is going to not be "randomly" searched because its'
itinerary indicates that it can't have gone anywhere to pick up naughty
items, you can help it out for a fee by passing it said illegal goods.
The pirate vessel (more likely, piracy support unit, if available) isn't
concerned with tracking efforts, as it couldn't survive a search (or even
possibly a patrol enquiry) in such a regime (potentially, anyway).

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:02:02 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Black Globes

Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It is a shame the black globes were so limited, compared to the Langston
Field from "The Mote in God's Eye" and associatedworks.  I thought it was
kind of interesting to pull picket duty in a star.  

Hmmm, perhaps that is where those pseky pirates have the hidden bases...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Task Force Games has a pretty straightforward game of space combat
called Star Fire. It uses fixed jump points for star travel - your ship
flies to a jump point, it passes through the stable wormhole that
connects that jump point permanently to a similar jump point at
another star.

Jump point locations were rather random. An interesting scenario
had the jump point several hexes (game scale escapes me) under
the surface of a Red Giant star. The stellar matter at that radius was
so thin the ships could fly through it, though if their force shields went
down from enemy fire the energy from the star would start to burn the
ship away. The point of the scenario was for one group to escape
through the jump point to safety.

Though I'd wonder if such a jump point would have a continuous fountain
of stellar material blowing through it at the other side...might look kind
of neat.

ObTrav: this has probably been covered before, but just how much
heat can a Traveller starship withstand? If I'm slingshotting around the
local star to get to 100d, how close is too close?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:12:30 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: New class of stars...real brown dwarfs...

From the AP wire today:
(sorry for the crappy layout)

New Class of Starlike Objects Found


        A.P. INDEXES: TOP STORIES | NEWS | SPORTS | BUSINESS |
TECHNOLOGY | ENTERTAINMENT 


        Filed at 1:44 p.m. EDT

        By The Associated Press

        SAN DIEGO (AP) -- Astronomers say that gas spheres glowing
faintly in the dark of
        space and slowly cooling represent a new class of stellar
objects that may be the most
        common bodies in the Milky Way. 

        The California Institute of Technology astronomers said they are
calling the new objects
        L dwarfs and that the discovery will force revision of a
century-old system of classifying
        stars based on their chemistry and temperature. 

        J. Davy Kirkpatrick told the American Astronomical Society that
he and his colleagues
        discovered that some objects have a surface temperature three
times lower than the
        sun, a mass about a third of the sun and a diameter about like
Jupiter. 

        ``They are radically different and require a new
classification,'' said Kirkpatrick. He said
        they have distinctive temperature and chemistry. 

        ``These look like stars,'' said I. Neill Reid, part of the Cal
Tech team, ``but they just
        haven't managed to get enough mass together to start nuclear
fusion,'' the process that
        makes stars shine. 

        The objects are thought to have heated as they formed from the
gravitational
        accumulation and compression of gas. But this heat is slowly
fading, like dying embers.
        A star is created when the mass is great enough to compress the
gas to a point that
        fusion fires are ignited in its core. 

        Kirkpatrick said the team discovered 20 of the objects in a
survey of just 1 percent of
        the sky out to about 100 light-years from the sun. A statistical
projection of this
        number suggests that about half of every 2,000 stellar points of
light in the Milky Way
        galaxy may, in fact, be these L dwarfs, he said. A light-year is
the distance light travels
        in a year in a vacuum, about 5.8 trillion miles. 

        ``L's are the most common type of objects,'' said Kirkpatrick.
``There are just about as
        numerous as all of the other types combined.'' 

        By splitting the light into colors, or spectrum, astronomers can
determine the distinctive
        chemistry of stellar objects. This allows them to calculate the
temperature and mass of
        the objects. 

        Using this technique, astronomers since 1817 have divided stars
into classes based on
        the spectral characteristics. At first, the star classes were
designated alphabetically, A
        through M, but some were dropped due to duplication. And in
1901, a Harvard
        astronomer, Annie Jump Cannon, arranged the remaining classes by
temperature, from
        hottest to coolest. 

        Cannon's work produced a sequence of classes identified, in
order, as OBAFGKM.
        Astronomy students have been taught for decades to remember this
sequence by using
        the mnemonic ``Oh, be a fine girl (or guy), kiss me.'' 

        Kirkpatrick said that since the object his team has discovered
is the coolest, it would
        follow the M class the spectral sequence of objects. He proposed
that they carry the
        letter L, creating a new hottest-to-coolest sequence of
OBAFGKML. 

        For the mnemonic, Kirkpatrick suggests ``Oh, be a fine girl/guy,
kiss my lips.'' 

        Kirkpatrick said the spectra of six of the new objects show the
presence of lithium. This
        reading disappears if objects are cooler than 4.5 million
degrees Fahrenheit and too cold
        to ever achieve the nuclear fusion process of stars. This means
they are actually not
        stars, but ``brown dwarfs,'' a type of failed star that is
bigger than a planet, but smaller
        than a star such as the sun. 

        Over millions of years, the L objects will cool, like dying
embers, and eventually become
        too cold to be detected from Earth, he said. 

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:27:22 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: MT Spreadsheets

>I also have an MT ship design spreadsheet, finally ready for 1.0 release.
>
>I'll email it to those who request.  With sufficient demand I may be able
>to put it on a web site.
>
>The format is Excel 5.0.

Forgot to say, Please email me *privately* and avoid clogging the list with
requests.

Pete Again.


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:34:48 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Taxation and Military Spending, expanded

I'm not entirely sure I followed the thread of your post Rob, but I think
you converted the U.S. military budget to credits to figure out how many
SDBs we could support, right?

But, using the entire budget eliminates the 'wet' Navy, COACC (Air Force),
and the ground combat arms.   There is nothing left for other goodies
either, like fixed orbital and ground defenses, sensor systems and the like.

The cost of the military infrastructure, as opposed to just the power
projection arm, is something I think that we should explore more in depth -
ie.  what percent of the military budget is spent in support of the ships
and defense forces that actually are launched.

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:52:57 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Trading Question; What is Superdense?

It occurs to me, when thinking about a more specific form of trade table,
that here on Earth in the 20th Century, if you analyzed exactly what goods
were being carried by traders roughly equivalent to Traveller Free Traders
and Merchants (maritime vessels) you would find that much (The Majority?)
of the 'cargo' space available is used for the following;

Oil
Grain/Rice/Oats
Iron Ore & Steel
Bauxite & Aluminum
Wood (for Construction or Paper)
Cars

It seems to me that, if I were building a random trade table for, say,
Boston, I would have a much higher incidence of Steel (scrap or new) than,
for example, Bananas.   would want the entry for "Steel, Finished" to be
more likely by an order of magnitude than "Bananas, Frozen" in a Traveller
analogous table.

This leads to several Questions;

1). What is Superdense Made Of?

Being the material of choice for most starships, the base material
(pre-compression) is going to be a popular import, and, probably, either
Iron Ore or some other abundant mineral resource available lots of places
(else SD would be much more expensive than crystaliron).  I think it could
be Carbon (coal, et al), Bauxite (transparent aluminum anyone?) or some
polymer (Petroleum?).

2). What other high bulk materials would make up the majority of imported
cargos in the Imperium?

Basic foodstuff is a good candidate.  Many worlds are highly populated,and
unable to grow food without hydroponics and such, but I have heard some
people say that it is downright impossible to feed a planet with imported
food, so maybe only gourmet specialties would be traded.

Unrefined or partly refined minerals from worlds with no refining at all I
think would be rare.  Anyone with a bit of business sense can see the
advantage of refining before shipping I think.  So 'refined' mineral
resources would be the norm, although these materials may be in a state
midway between the harvested form and the final product (plastic sheets,
refined iron ore).

Petroleum has value well after it's value as a fuel is no more.  Solvents,
plastics, lubricants, etc etc.  And I seem to recall that Petroleum is a
biproduct of vegitation, and so requires a (relatively) habitable planet
(or previously habitable planet) to be present.  This means to me that not
any planet will have petroleum, leading to it being a valuable trading
commodity, either raw (partly refined) or finished.

Most construction would try to use indigenous materials to save on cost.
This means to me that concrete or wood will not be on the "most imported"
list.

Any other  thoughts?

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:01:50 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... ) 

> At 01:53 PM 6/10/98 -0400, you wrote:
> >Black globes are impenetrable to *ALL* energy in *BOTH* directions.  That 
> >includes visible light.  And do you *REALLY* want to try and take that black 
> >globe into a *STAR*?????????????????  You go ahead; I'll sit back a hundred 
> >million klicks out, taking bets on how many milliseconds it takes you to die.
> 
> It is a shame the black globes were so limited, compared to the Langston
> Field from "The Mote in God's Eye" and associatedworks.  I thought it was
> kind of interesting to pull picket duty in a star.  

Langston fields were only carried by military ships in the Empire.  There is 
no real difference between military & nonmilitary ships in the Mote system.

> Hmmm, perhaps that is where those pseky pirates have the hidden bases...

And I still think that black globes destabilise game balance, therefore they 
should be *rarer* than hen's teeth, like they were canonically in CT.  Only 
2000 globes were found by the Imperium, *all* of them reserved for the 
Imperial Navy on an experimental 'this *might* or might *not* work' basis.  
Crude copies were built at a couple research stations, taking advantage of 
advanced technology that hasn't filtered down to the Imperium yet.  But the 
underlying physics had *yet* to be discovered.

Like I say, rare gadgets that upset the balance.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance



- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:06:29 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... ) 

> Kurt Feltenberger writes:
> > It is a shame the black globes were so limited, compared to the Langston
> > Field from "The Mote in God's Eye" and associatedworks.  I thought it was
> > kind of interesting to pull picket duty in a star.  
> > 
> > Hmmm, perhaps that is where those pseky pirates have the hidden bases...
>  
> Bah, black globes are incredibly useful devices -- they have the magic power to
> violate the second law of thermodynamics by turning heat energy into usable
> power.  This has quite remarkable consequences for such things as heat
> signature (which is utterly ignored in the rulebook, of course).

And do amazing things to game balance in space combat.  Of course, if you're 
getting beat on by a 35kdt cruiser shooting everything it has at you, you 
won't last long enough to surrender...

> To be more reasonable, black globe generators should probably have a
> temperature and emit black-body radiation, though that kind of limits their
> value as uber-stealth devices.

They absorb everything.  This would mean black body radiation, too.  Of 
course, you could handwave this away as 'physics as wishful thinking'...

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:20:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... ) 

Keven R. Pittsinger writes:
 
> They absorb everything.  This would mean black body radiation, too.  Of 
> course, you could handwave this away as 'physics as wishful thinking'...
> 
The fact that they absorb everything doesn't mean that they don't emit
blackbody radiation -- a perfect blackbody absorbs everything too.  It is the
screen itself which would emit blackbody radiation, and nothing in 'absorbs all
energy which hits it' disallows emitting energy as well.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:38:50 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Starport Construction Costs, v2

I number of posts on starports have assumed a number of
specific things are the same in all of them.  For example...

> II. PARKBAYS
>
> Ships are moved via maglev rail to parkbays, which are circular
> platforms with 11 bays, each of which can hold a ship of up to
> 1000 tons.  Maglev rail enters the parkbay and runs in a circle
> around the inside, with a branch into each bay.  In the center is a
> single shielded vertical liftoff platform (also connected to
> the maglev system).

Assumes a circular arrangement of 11 bays and seperate 
holding facilities for ships over and under 1,000 tons.

I see starports as being designed one by one to meet local
needs (TL, types of ships that dock there, amount of traffic,
local design philosophy, local cultural views on efficieny
vs. cost. vs beauty, etc.).  A lot of this is going to vary
from port to port.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:03:47 -0600
From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
Subject: Re: TU using Book2ish CT ship designs T-digest V1998 #572

Walter Smith wrote:

Quote:

Once upon a time, someone built a 1200 ton warship and called it
a Battlecruiser...

400 to 800 ton craft are called "Cruisers". 5000 ton ships are the biggest
we can make, and even the best TL15 Z-class drives can only make these
5ktn craft go 2G and Jump-2.

etc.

End Quote

Walt:

There were several of us GI types playing and developing our TU around B2
when HG1 and HG2 came out.  We just decided that B2 starships and craft were
strictly "civilian" off the shelf purchases.  The PCs would then go "a
cherchez" for their "government" replacements in the surplus lots of the
Spinward Main.  Sometimes they got caught for having a "GI" J-drive or
M-drive.  Other times they got a little subsidy in the form of a Letter of
Marque.  

There are several ways to solve the B2 and HG1-2 dichotomy.  Ignore B2, or
ignore HG1-2, or meet somewhere in the middle.  When MT came out, I found
that ship and craft development became more refined for the extras, and
that's what I wanted out of the MT books.  I didn't care for the mass
ratios, even if it may have been more accurate.  HG is still a fairly
straight forward ship development system, if you're not a gearhead.  And I
ain't.

Yep.  The largest Ci(v)ilian Dreadnaught (DV, VD) is 5000dT.  The largest
Military Dreadnaought I tried to create was 500,000dT.  I think 100 times
greater is a good ratio.  Keeps the riff-raff from getting too uppity.

Besides, I like the AHL floor plans and still use them.  I just wish they
were in 25mm.  I spent hours drawing the 800dT Broadsword in 25mm.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:12:23 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Starport Construction Costs, v2

- -----Original Message-----
From: David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu>
To: Traveller <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, June 10, 1998 1:46 PM
Subject: Re: Starport Construction Costs, v2


>I number of posts on starports have assumed a number of
>specific things are the same in all of them.  For example...


[snip]

>Assumes a circular arrangement of 11 bays and seperate
>holding facilities for ships over and under 1,000 tons.
>
>I see starports as being designed one by one to meet local
>needs (TL, types of ships that dock there, amount of traffic,
>local design philosophy, local cultural views on efficieny
>vs. cost. vs beauty, etc.).  A lot of this is going to vary
>from port to port.


At the same time, however, the Imperium is going to have a set of
standardized specifications on what a Class C starport is, or a Class B,
etc...  And since your world is judged by your starport, you are darn well
going to try and meet those specifications.

So, if the Grand Duke's mother's brother's son's daughter is seeing someone
who makes non-slip seats for the starport lounge stools, and that gets put
into the standard for what constitutes a Class A facility...

Politics is such a wonderful thing.  ;)

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:01:56 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Starbases

JLAROSEE@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hi-
>    I've a reference for some of the questions regarding starbase construction.
> It's:
>       FIFTY STARBASES: Essential Mapping Systems for Planetary Landings
>       Judges Guild #480
>       copyright 1981
> 
>    An example of what's inside:
>     Orbital Station
>    " The standard category Orbital Station has facilities for accommodating up
> to 1,000 passengers and at least 500 work crew. Scshuttle service to the
> planet below is available. Small craft are available for hire and a Type A
> Free Trader will be available for hire on a roll of 7+. Other types of
> commercial standard vessels will be available on a roll of 11+. Refined fuel,
> water, and basic food supplies are always available. On a roll of 9+ luxury
> foodsupplies are available. Spare parts for most types of small craft are
> available and repair services for small craft are available on a roll of 7+."
> 
>    Needless to say, this goes on and on describing other size stations and
> orbital ports (for construction) and the services at each. Also has hex maps
> of various ground stations. Anyway, good reference to get things started.
> 
>      Jay

So what are the possibilities in making it avaialable to others who do
not have it.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:05:44 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: MT Spreadsheets

Peter H. Brenton wrote:
> 
> I also have an MT ship design spreadsheet, finally ready for 1.0 release.
> 
> I'll email it to those who request.  With sufficient demand I may be able
> to put it on a web site.
> 
> The format is Excel 5.0.
> 
> Bye.
> 
> Pete
> 
>                       Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
> "A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
>   -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

I would like to try that as well, thank you.

Jim C

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:19:57 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Taxation and Military Spending

At 09:52 AM 6/10/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Are there web links that break down the military budgets
>and spending of some of the world's budgets?

Well, in 1996 the total reciepts for the US Government was 1.46 trillion
dollars.  The Department of Defence got $253 billion, or about 17%

Of that amount: 

$66.669 billion went to personnel
$88.629 billion went to operations and maitainence
$48.912 billion went to procurement
$36.561 billion for research, testing, and development
$6.684 billion for military construction

So about 19% of the modern US military budget goes to procurement of new
equipment.  This is about 3% of the total US budget.

>	* NASA

NASA has an annual budget of $13.882 billion.  The World Almanac doesn't
break that down any further.
- --

+------------------------*------------------------+
|    Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net     |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html     |
+-------------------------------------------------+
| Truth resides in the human heart and one has to |
|  search for it there, and to be guided by the   |
|  truth as one sees it. But no one has the right |
|  to coerce others to act according to his own   |
| view of the truth.            -- Gandhi         |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:25:00 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... ) 

> Keven R. Pittsinger writes:
>  
> > They absorb everything.  This would mean black body radiation, too.  Of 
> > course, you could handwave this away as 'physics as wishful thinking'...
> > 
> The fact that they absorb everything doesn't mean that they don't emit
> blackbody radiation -- a perfect blackbody absorbs everything too.  It is the
> screen itself which would emit blackbody radiation, and nothing in 'absorbs all
> energy which hits it' disallows emitting energy as well.

<sigh>

From High Guard 2nd Edition, Pg 31:

'Force Field Generators' project a spherical energy-absorbing shell around a 
ship, and are therefore known as black glove screens.  All energy, whatever 
its form, that contacts the black globe is absorbed and diverted to the ship's 
capacitors, doing no damage.

OK, *all* energy hitting it goes to the capacitors.  This leaves *NOTHING* for 
black body radiation.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:31:31 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: TU using Book2ish CT ship designs T-digest V1998 #572 

> There were several of us GI types playing and developing our TU around B2
> when HG1 and HG2 came out.  We just decided that B2 starships and craft were
> strictly "civilian" off the shelf purchases.  The PCs would then go "a
> cherchez" for their "government" replacements in the surplus lots of the
> Spinward Main.  Sometimes they got caught for having a "GI" J-drive or
> M-drive.  Other times they got a little subsidy in the form of a Letter of
> Marque.  

IMTU, I scrapped B2's designs when HG came out.  I hybridised the combat, 
though.  IMNSFBHO, the sheer *price* of a high tech single (a.k.a. 'military') 
mission boat kept the PCs from procuring them.  <g>

> Yep.  The largest Ci(v)ilian Dreadnaught (DV, VD) is 5000dT.  The largest
> Military Dreadnaought I tried to create was 500,000dT.  I think 100 times
> greater is a good ratio.  Keeps the riff-raff from getting too uppity.

The price tag would do that.  Unless the PCs tried to hijack one.  <g>  Can 
you say instant PC suicide?

> Besides, I like the AHL floor plans and still use them.  I just wish they
> were in 25mm.  I spent hours drawing the 800dT Broadsword in 25mm.

Get thee hence to your local Kinko's, and copy them blown up.  *grin*

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #573
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 11 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 574



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... ) 
Re: Problem with Andy Akins FFS2.3
Re: MT spreadsheets
Re: Trivia
Re: Taxation and Military Spending
[T98#569] MT Spreadsheets
Re: Distinguishing the Vilani
Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... ) 
Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... ) 
Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... ) 
RE: MT Spreadsheets
Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka
Re: Starbases
Re: Foreven Sector
Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... )
Re: MT Spreadsheets
Re: Problem with Andy Akins FFS2.3
Re: Campaign Builders' Handbook 
TU using Book2ish CT ship designs
Re:  brown dwarfs
Re: Problem with Andy Akins FFS2.3
Does anybody know?
Jumping outsystem
Re: Starbases

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:32:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... ) 

Keven R. Pittsinger writes:

> >From High Guard 2nd Edition, Pg 31:
> 
> 'Force Field Generators' project a spherical energy-absorbing shell around
> a  ship, and are therefore known as black glove screens.  All energy,
> whatever  its form, that contacts the black globe is absorbed and diverted
> to the ship's  capacitors, doing no damage.
> 
> OK, *all* energy hitting it goes to the capacitors.  This leaves *NOTHING*
> for  black body radiation.
> 
My point was that you would avoid the wondrous violations of the second law of
thermodynamics if you changed this -- I am aware of what the text says.  Note
that the text _still_ doesn't disallow black globes emitting blackbody
radiation.  That just means that not only can power be diverted from the
generator into the capacitors, it can also flow the reverse direction.

Of course, Traveller isn't terribly averse to violations of thermodynamics in
any case, contragrav and thruster plates both violate the first law of
thermodynamics, and nuclear dampers _may_ violate thermodynamics, though it is
slightly more difficult to tell (anything which actually changed the behavior
of the strong nuclear force would _probably_ cause changes in the mass of
nuclei.  However, in theory merely adjusting the dropoff in strength beyond the
normal size of a nucleus would influence fusion and radioactive decay).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 23:37:41 +0200
From: Deligiannidis Nikolaos <nikolaos.deligiannidis@stud.tu-muenchen.de>
Subject: Re: Problem with Andy Akins FFS2.3

Andrew Akins wrote:

> Can someone (Bruce?) confirm the TL of AND drive?

I think in the FFS2 Errata at Chris Coy Site , AND had the following
stats :
TL  Type     Thrust        Price            min Thrust     Rate
Fule           Fuel Type
                   (kN/m)    (MCr/m)          (kN)         (m/hr/kN)
10   AND     1,100           0,8                -
0,034                 D/T Water


Nikos

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:41:14 EDT
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Re: MT spreadsheets

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 09:12:53 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>

	[I use Excel 4 and would gladly try helping you convert it to that
format. I should be able to import the file(s) directly in Lotus format
and I believe excel will convert same, either directly or with a minimum
amount of reformatting. I do not have a web site, but would make the
converted file available, however possible, if you would not be able to
receive it back in Excel format.]

	There on my web site now, but you'll need to FTP them. The files
are TL11.wks, TL12.wks, TL13.wks, TL14.wks, TL15.wks, TL15.fmt, TL15.wk1
(I'm not sure what the last two are exactly).

	When you're done with the conversion you can upload them to:
members.aol.com\kagekiha\incoming
	The web/ftp site is at:
members.aol.com\kagekiha\traveller (which is currently undergoing a
few changes/additions).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:42:41 EDT
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Re: Trivia

>From: Sethkimmel@aol.com, Subject: Re: Trivia 
>Knorbes?

	Nope. Hint, it's not in Imperial space.....

Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:53:30 -0500
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Taxation and Military Spending

At http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/ (the online CIA
World Factbook) they've got the following information:

World population (1997):   5.85 billion
US population:               268 million
World GDP (1996 est.):   $35.8 trillion   +3.6% annually
US GDP:                   $7.6 trillion   +2.4% annually

Est. world military expenditures:  $750 billion (2% of world GDP)
Est. US military expenditures:     $267 billion (3.4% of US GDP)

[Trillions are 10^12; billions are 10^9.] 

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:00:58 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T98#569] MT Spreadsheets

On Tue, 9 Jun 1998 12:20:25 -0400, Kagehira@aol.com wrote:

>	I have a set of MT spreadsheets available in Lotus format. They include all
>known errata, and have been relatively extensively tested. There are 5 of them
>(TL11-15).

>	If there's enough interest I could post them to my web site for FTPing
>(especially if someone could give me the code on how to do that). Also if
>someone would like to convert them to Excel, I'd be interested.

Post the sheets and post the URL, and I'll grab them and look at
converting them to Excel 97 (and/or any other format that E97 can
save/export in).  If you do it quickly enough, they can be in the
July update to Freelance Traveller.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 00:01:58 +0200
From: Deligiannidis Nikolaos <nikolaos.deligiannidis@stud.tu-muenchen.de>
Subject: Re: Distinguishing the Vilani

Walter Smith wrote:

> ObTrav: How many people does it take to make a viable breeding
> population on a colony world cut off by a long night?

Somewhere I read that, to sustain survivability ( same evolutionary
level ) of a group,a minimum of 10000 different genotypes (and a healthy
mix of men and women)
would be necessary! Genetic diversity & mutability !!!

> If your planet is a bunch of people under the minimum, what do you do?

The fewer the people, the greater the possibility that they will
degeneratepsysicaly and mentaly (bubbling idiots , incest results etc.)
or could not survive more
than a few generations for long

> Change
> social codes on reproduction?



> Take your last spaceship and go to other worlds on their way into
> barbarism and kidnap the good
> looking natives?

romans and sabiner women ? ;-)I would do that even when we had enough
"coupling" partners, neccesary for reproduction,
on my planet! You newer appreciate what you  have for sure!!! :-)
No offense given !!!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:04:57 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... ) 

> > OK, *all* energy hitting it goes to the capacitors.  This leaves *NOTHING*
> > for  black body radiation.
> > 
> My point was that you would avoid the wondrous violations of the second law of
> thermodynamics if you changed this -- I am aware of what the text says.  Note
> that the text _still_ doesn't disallow black globes emitting blackbody
> radiation.  That just means that not only can power be diverted from the
> generator into the capacitors, it can also flow the reverse direction.

We're talking *ANCIENTS* class physics here, *NOT* Imperial.  And where does 
it say that the power can flow in reverse?

> Of course, Traveller isn't terribly averse to violations of thermodynamics in
> any case, contragrav and thruster plates both violate the first law of
> thermodynamics, and nuclear dampers _may_ violate thermodynamics, though it is
> slightly more difficult to tell (anything which actually changed the behavior
> of the strong nuclear force would _probably_ cause changes in the mass of
> nuclei.  However, in theory merely adjusting the dropoff in strength beyond the
> normal size of a nucleus would influence fusion and radioactive decay).

How so?  CG and nuclear dampers wouldn't violate the laws since you have to
pump energy into them in order for it to work.  These are *not* perpetual
motion machines.  You can turn them on and off at will and you *WILL* lose the
energy you feed them while they're in use.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:12:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... ) 

Keven R. Pittsinger writes:

> How so?  CG and nuclear dampers wouldn't violate the laws since you have to
> pump energy into them in order for it to work.  These are *not* perpetual
motion machines.  You can turn them on and off at will and you *WILL* lose the
energy you feed them while they're in use. 

No, they violate conservation of energy because the amount of energy gained is
greater than the amount of energy spent.  If you create a wheel with CG lifters
strung in a circle around it, and turn the lifters on when they're on the side
which is going up, off when on the side going down, and connect the wheel to a
generator, you'll start producing more energy than you use when the rotation
speed of the wheel exceeds about 10 meters/second.  Similar problems occur for
thruster plates (nuclear dampers are more complicated).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:54:36 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... ) 

> Keven R. Pittsinger writes:
> 
> > How so?  CG and nuclear dampers wouldn't violate the laws since you have to
> > pump energy into them in order for it to work.  These are *not* perpetual
> motion machines.  You can turn them on and off at will and you *WILL* lose the
> energy you feed them while they're in use. 
> 
> No, they violate conservation of energy because the amount of energy gained is
> greater than the amount of energy spent.  If you create a wheel with CG lifters
> strung in a circle around it, and turn the lifters on when they're on the side
> which is going up, off when on the side going down, and connect the wheel to a
> generator, you'll start producing more energy than you use when the rotation
> speed of the wheel exceeds about 10 meters/second.  Similar problems occur for
> thruster plates (nuclear dampers are more complicated).

You're ignoring the friction of the wheel assembly both on the shaft *and* the 
electromagnetic kickback of the generator, not to mention the heat generated 
in this process.  Plus, you'll lose some energy when the switches you use to 
turn the lifters on & off make and break.  They're called 'sparks'.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:26:03 -0500
From: Charlie Moore <brrecluse@ibm.net>
Subject: RE: MT Spreadsheets

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD94B7.5B8AF000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear Mr. Benton
I would like to request a copy of your spreadsheet also. Thank you for your
help and efforts.
                                                              								                   
													 Charlie Moore 
													brrecluse@ibm.net

- -----Original Message-----
From:	Peter H. Brenton [SMTP:pbrenton@mit.edu]
Sent:	Wednesday, June 10, 1998 11:51 AM
To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject:	MT Spreadsheets

I also have an MT ship design spreadsheet, finally ready for 1.0 release.

I'll email it to those who request.  With sufficient demand I may be able
to put it on a web site.

The format is Excel 5.0.

Bye.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)



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- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD94B7.5B8AF000--

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:50:09 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance was kind enough to share some notes on his
campaign; one of the comments he made got me to thinking.

One of the major problems of space colonization in the real world may be
disease.  Every habitat is effectively its own ecosystem; the humans that
live there will be subjected to mutating strains of virus and bacteria,
developing immunities as they go along.  So far, this is not very different
than the current situation (think "flu and cold season"), although the
higher background radiation may cause higher mutation rates than on Earth
(I can't say, I'm not a biologist).

The problem arises when humans from one habitat encounter those from
another.  Now, unless stringent isolation procedures are followed, each
population is exposed to the diseases of the other, for which they have no
developed immunities.  The longer the populations have been separated, the
greater the differences in their endemic diseases, and the more likely that
something really nasty has developed (to which the carrier population is
largely immune).

In the Traveller of the Third Imperium, anyone who travels probably has
been given some permanent, broad-spectrum anti-bodies (maybe through
limited genetic engineering) to ensure that they don't carry strange
diseases from one world to another.  It is probably so routine a procedure
that it's never mentioned, and the cost of updating the vaccine subsumed in
the price of life support (if required).  Even so, there are sure to be
accidents, missed inoculations, or resistant strains every once in a while
- - the fodder of a fertile GM's mind.

But consider the impact of the first contact with Terrans on the Ziru
Sirka.  The Vilani have no endemic diseases:  anything that could prey on
humans died off hundreds of thousands of years ago (for want of reservoir
populations of compatible animals).  Their biological sciences are almost
totally atrophied as result; the Vilani language probably does not contain
a word for "vaccination".  Then all at once, they get exposed to the full
spectrum of Terrestrial micro-life.  The Black Plague, the effects of
syphilis and smallpox on the Native American populations, and the worldwide
influenza epidemic of 1918 together pale by comparison.

Historians have often wondered at the ease with which the puny Terran
forces toppled and eventually usurped the vast First Imperium.  The method
may have been as simple as that used by Cortez against the Aztec:  move
into the vacuum that the diseases you carry have created.  (To his credit,
Andrew posits that the Terrans, aware of the problem, would attempt to
assist, thus limiting the deaths to 5-10% of the population.  I'm not so
sure this is even possible, much less that it would have been feasible
under the circumstances.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:14:06 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Starbases

>>    I've a reference for some of the questions regarding starbase
construction.
>> It's:
>>       FIFTY STARBASES: Essential Mapping Systems for Planetary Landings
>>       Judges Guild #480
...
>>    Needless to say, this goes on and on describing other size stations and
>> orbital ports (for construction) and the services at each. Also has hex maps
>> of various ground stations. Anyway, good reference to get things started.
>> 
>>      Jay
>
>So what are the possibilities in making it avaialable to others who do
>not have it.

  AFAIK, Titan Games (www.titan-games.com) carries them in new condition, $4
US. Also lots of other JG stuff, and used GDW product. Try their "Sale"
section.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 00:36:41 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Foreven Sector

>The two sheet publication in Arrival Vengece called Imperiallines no 1,
>or surf those digital waves to :-
>
>http://members.aol.com/gypsycomet/iakrdot.html
>

 Wow. Beaten to my own webpage reference...

I am slowly detailing the sector for my own use, and sharing with the web.
Berka (over at zhodani.org) did two subsectors a while back, and has just
recently massaged them to fit the official dotmap. Between us the whole sector
won't take long. HOWEVER! If anyone has developed a chunk of Foreven and wants
it to be part of this unofficial collaboration, let me know.

>There were supposed to be more Imperiallines , dose anyone know if there
>were, and if you have one could you mail me.

 Imperiallines saw two issues published and a double issue (3/4) proofed but
never published...

GypsyComet

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:40:30 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... )

>> No, they violate conservation of energy because the amount of energy
>>gained is
>> greater than the amount of energy spent.  If you create a wheel with CG
>>lifters
>> strung in a circle around it, and turn the lifters on when they're on
>>the side
>> which is going up, off when on the side going down, and connect the
>>wheel to a
>> generator, you'll start producing more energy than you use when the rotation
>> speed of the wheel exceeds about 10 meters/second.  Similar problems
>>occur for
>> thruster plates (nuclear dampers are more complicated).
>
>You're ignoring the friction of the wheel assembly both on the shaft *and*
>the
>electromagnetic kickback of the generator, not to mention the heat generated
>in this process.  Plus, you'll lose some energy when the switches you use to
>turn the lifters on & off make and break.  They're called 'sparks'.

While the things you mention do use up energy, a standard Traveller CG
device can be turned into a free energy machine in a gravity field.

Take two heavy weights, say a ton or so.  Put sufficient grav modules on
them to negate gravity.   Put them on a 2 meter rod suspended by the
middle.  Float them on a magnetic spindle, so you have minimal friction,
and do this in a vacuum.

Each turn of the wheel involves 2000Kg dropping two meters.  From P=mgh,
this gives off 40Kj per spin.   According to FF&S2, a grav module reqires
700W/KN, and we will need to have 10KN negated, thus 7KW of input energy.

So, one rotation per second produces roughly six times the power needed to
run the machine.  Even the most inefficient system for making contacts,
pulling power out, and so on, is going to be a net positive for this device.

Similar calculations with thruster plates show how they become pure energy
machines fairly easily.

Niven wrote about how a teleporter at a pole can be used to make a free
reactionless drive or doomsday device.

High tech goodies usually have little problems like this, that we all agree
to ignore, much like the causality problems produced by ump drives.

Scott

- -------
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu.  http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz/
"You die, she dies, EVERYbody dies" - Heavy Metal
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment results" -
Calvin Coolidge, attrib. by Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 00:00:26 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: MT Spreadsheets

Kagehira@aol.com wrote:

>         I have a set of MT spreadsheets available in Lotus format. They include all
> known errata, and have been relatively extensively tested. There are 5 of them
> (TL11-15).
>
>         If there's enough interest I could post them to my web site for FTPing
> (especially if someone could give me the code on how to do that). Also if
> someone would like to convert them to Excel, I'd be interested.
>
> Bryan

Insert intrest here...



- --
My god, it's full of stars!


Http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/4467

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:09:38 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Problem with Andy Akins FFS2.3

>Can someone (Bruce?) confirm the TL of AND drive?
TL 10. TL 9 missiles have to use fusion rockets or GCNTR.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:46:01 +0000
From: "Pearson Publishing" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Re: Campaign Builders' Handbook 

> Subject: Re: Campaign Builders' Handbook 
> 
> > I just recently built a website with the hopes of collecting campaign 
> > ideas.  While I've found many that have ton's of 
> > vehicles/ships/rules, I've found very little with idea generators.  I 
> > posted a message board for people to leave their campaign ideas on.
> 
> URL??
> 
> Keven
> 
 -- James Pearson
"The purpose of a referee is to present obstacles 
for players to overcome as they go about seeking 
their goals, not to constantly make trouble for them.
This is a very subtle distinction ..."

The Traveller Book, p. 12

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/4089

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:16:19 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: TU using Book2ish CT ship designs

Walt Smith writes
>[positing technical limits keeping ships to 5000 kTons.]

Another approach to achiveing this effect would be to have a TU - or
at least a sector - with quite low populations (none higher than 7 o r
perhaps  8.) A pop-7 world would have about MCr 100,000 of fleet - 
about 100,000 tons - and if they had several client worlds to defend,
probably their biggest fleet units would be in the 5000 ton range.
Add in a lot of zero-pop worlds with only gas giants and you can have
quite interesting military sitatuins - and ones in which a PC-sized ship
actually has military value. I think if I ever run a campaign it will
be in such a universe.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:22:48 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  brown dwarfs

>suggests that about half of every 2,000 stellar points of
>light in the Milky Way
>galaxy may, in fact, be these L dwarfs, he said. 
(Although it's also consistent with a much smaller fraction being
L/brown dwarfs, though; the uncertainties are big. Note that these
aren't fundamentally a new *discovery* so much as an ackowledgment
that we finally have enough brown dwarfs that we need a way of 
classifying them.

(I was at the AAS talking to Neill and Davy this afternoon...)

Bruce Macintosh

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:06:13 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Problem with Andy Akins FFS2.3

Date sent:      	Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:09:38 -0700
From:           	bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
To:             	igor@ames.net, traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject:        	Re: Problem with Andy Akins FFS2.3
Copies to:      	bmac@astro.ucla.edu
Send reply to:  	traveller@MPGN.COM

> >Can someone (Bruce?) confirm the TL of AND drive?
> TL 10. TL 9 missiles have to use fusion rockets or GCNTR.

According to my tables:
NTR = TL 7
ANTR = TL 8
GCNTR = TL 9
Exp Fusion = TL 9
Fusion = TL 10

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++++ su+ ge

************************************************************
Of course its safe, I made it myself
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 03:33:19 -0400
From: Andy Slack <AndySlack@compuserve.com>
Subject: Does anybody know?

From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>What is the name of the Imperial Intellegence Service?

Now, does anyone know the name of the one for the Sword Worlds?????<

I figured as a balkanised state they would have several. Even a medium
sized modern nation usually has two or three; ghod knows how many the
superpowers have. Now, multiply that by about twenty planets.

It's no wonder they're stuck in a single backwater subsector. They keep
assassinating and sabotaging each other. Sometimes they do it to 
other Sword Worlds as well as themselves. :)

Of course, there IS a single overarching agency.

It is called... AARGH! <clutches throat - falls to floor as if poisoned.>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 03:33:29 -0400
From: Andy Slack <AndySlack@compuserve.com>
Subject: Jumping outsystem

(Hey Leonard - did I ever tell you how cool I thought that
E1-E2-E3 stuff was?)

Guys,

It's been a blast, but the pressure of work is reaching the
point where I don't have the time to read through TML, so
I'm unsubbing before my mailbox takes over the world.
If anyone wants to talk privately I can be reached at:

andyslack@compuserve.com

My old Traveller stuff will continue to be posted to the
Web as time permits. Five to go... You can find it at:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/AndySlack/traveler.htm

I plan to resub when the heat dies down, maybe Novemberish this
year.

Keep the flame!
Andy

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 02:47:32 -0700
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Starbases

> From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca>
>   AFAIK, Titan Games (www.titan-games.com) carries them in new condition, $4 US.
> Also lots of other JG stuff, and used GDW product. Try their "Sale"
section.
>         Steven Hudson

Just one little problem here, did you know that JG's stuff cannot be sold
in the US.  Walt Bludsoe still "owes" the IRS lots & lots of cash.  So how
are they selling JG product?

Legate, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #574
**********************************

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in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 11 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 575



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Starbases
Re: Foreven Sector
Re: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka
New FFS2 Spreadsheet
Re: brown dwarfs
Re: Disease: T-digest V1998 #574
Re: Trading Question; What is Superdense?
Cost of starships
Traveller Domain names
Viable population (was Re: Distinguishing the Vilani)
Trade Statistics (was Re: Taxation and Military Spending)
Re: Ship trade and economics
Re: Pirates take the whole ship?
Viable Populations
Anti-Hijack (was: Pirates take the whole ship)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 03:56:09 -0600
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Starbases

At 02:47 AM 6/11/98 -0700, you wrote:
>> From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca>
>>   AFAIK, Titan Games (www.titan-games.com) carries them in new condition, $4 US.
>> Also lots of other JG stuff, and used GDW product. Try their "Sale" section.
>>         Steven Hudson
>
>Just one little problem here, did you know that JG's stuff cannot be sold
>in the US.  Walt Bludsoe still "owes" the IRS lots & lots of cash.  So how
>are they selling JG product?

Oh please.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 07:15:27 EDT
From: Qstor@aol.com
Subject: Re: Foreven Sector

AOL wouldn't "read" the URL the other days.....bastrads...but I guess that's AOL....

Thanks again...

Mike

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:01:05 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka

From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka
	(Snip)
	(Rant mode on)
	Oh, no... are we going to start the Plague of Duskir debate again? 
Wasn't this one of the "done-to-death" topics of the TML? (Sorry, 
Christopher: check your sources, this disease you sketch is already 
part of the *official* Traveller Universe...).
	(Rant mode off)
	Carlos (having a bad day)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:25:29 -0500
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: New FFS2 Spreadsheet

Version 2.4 of my FF&S spreadsheet is now available.

Well, I said it would be available yesterday. I lied :)

But it's available now.

Go to www.ames.net/igor/traveller/

You can either get the spreadsheet from the Filelist area, or go into one of
the web sites and it can be found in the Operations area.

The following features/bugs have been added/fixed:

* Fixed Missile Thrusters
* Fixed HEPlaR fuel consumption for missile drives.
* Fixed IR signature for low-power scenarios.
* Fixed the beam pointer on Laser 1.
* Fixed a problem with bridge armor.
* Changed pricing for Advanced Nuclear Drives.
* Changed the nuclear damper turrets and sandcasters to allow grouping into
batteries (neccessary for the CUSP).
* Added Point Defence batteries for lasers - these add the ability for
lasers to have extreme ROFs for 1 minute.
* Added the CUSP - Combat Universal Ship Profile. This profile is intended
to be used in Bruce Macintosh's starship combat system. It can be found on
the combat page. Note that this is potentially an early version of the CUSP,
as Bruce has not finalized his combat system. But, it gives a good idea of
the direction he's going. By the way, here's a shameless plug - I happen to
like his system a lot :)


+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+  |
|       vi+ da+                                                      |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                           |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 06:49:16 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: brown dwarfs

Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

> (Although it's also consistent with a much smaller fraction being
> L/brown dwarfs, though; the uncertainties are big. Note that these
> aren't fundamentally a new *discovery* so much as an ackowledgment
> that we finally have enough brown dwarfs that we need a way of
> classifying them.

I didn't know we'd actually seen any brown dwarfs until now...

> (I was at the AAS talking to Neill and Davy this afternoon...)

I love this list...I mean, where else can we get _real_ rocket scientists to
answer our questions? Thanks Bruce!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:24:43 -0600
From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
Subject: Re: Disease: T-digest V1998 #574

Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com> worte:

<<One of the major problems of space colonization in the real world may be
disease.  Every habitat is effectively its own ecosystem; the humans that
live there will be subjected to mutating strains of virus and bacteria,
developing immunities as they go along.  So far, this is not very different
than the current situation (think "flu and cold season"), although the
higher background radiation may cause higher mutation rates than on Earth
(I can't say, I'm not a biologist).>>

I agree.  Ecosystems are two way streets.  What humans may introduce into
the ecosystem may cause the ecosystem to "fight" back.  T-cells, antibodies,
poisonous/noxious plants, etc may begin to prey on the "fragile" human or
non-human body.  Higher levels of background radiation could cause genetic
variances to increase, but these usually take eons for natural selection to
positively act upon.  Somantic effects would be readily noticable.  Most
genetic effects would be negative and cause death of the individual
organism, either in the womb or within one generation after its birth.  For
natural selection to take a positive hold, the organism has to survive
through the third or fourth generation.  For single celled organisms, this
can be a short as a day or even hours.  Think of the influenza virus.  This
"organism" survives thousands of genetic changes within a matter of days,
because its nature is to recombine its DNA with that of its host, be it a
chicken, pig or human.

<<The problem arises when humans from one habitat encounter those from
another.  Now, unless stringent isolation procedures are followed, each
population is exposed to the diseases of the other, for which they have no
developed immunities.  The longer the populations have been separated, the
greater the differences in their endemic diseases, and the more likely that
something really nasty has developed (to which the carrier population is
largely immune).>>

IMTU I handled this by stating that those planets inhabited by the major and
minor races were "habitable" by all races.  These planets had no known
predatory factors on any of the races, thus the spread of the races to where
they are "today."  If you subscribe to the theory that the Ancients were the
ones that spread all of the Major Races, (and why not the Minor Races) then
they would have been smart enough to place the races on habitable planets
and not inhabitable ones.  Never mind that some planets might be
"inhospitable" implying a challenge to live on.

<<In the Traveller of the Third Imperium, anyone who travels probably has
been given some permanent, broad-spectrum anti-bodies (maybe through
limited genetic engineering) to ensure that they don't carry strange
diseases from one world to another.  It is probably so routine a procedure
that it's never mentioned, and the cost of updating the vaccine subsumed in
the price of life support (if required).  Even so, there are sure to be
accidents, missed inoculations, or resistant strains every once in a while
- - - the fodder of a fertile GM's mind.>>

I agree.  Again, a little hand waving here.  By TL 13, I figured all races
had developed to the point to eliminate the need for anti-body innoculations
because diseases had been eliminated.  This puts all races into the catagory
that the pre-Columbian natives were in.  90% of the deaths in the aboriginal
tribes of the Americas were due to "common" diseases of the times.  Flu,
measles, pox, as well as syphillus and gonnorhea.

<<But consider the impact of the first contact with Terrans on the Ziru
Sirka.  The Vilani have no endemic diseases:  anything that could prey on
humans died off hundreds of thousands of years ago (for want of reservoir
populations of compatible animals).  Their biological sciences are almost
totally atrophied as result; the Vilani language probably does not contain
a word for "vaccination".  Then all at once, they get exposed to the full
spectrum of Terrestrial micro-life.  The Black Plague, the effects of
syphilis and smallpox on the Native American populations, and the worldwide
influenza epidemic of 1918 together pale by comparison.>>

Refresh my memory.  At what point did the contact take place and at what TL
were the Terrans at?  Could these losses really be unintentional?

<<Historians have often wondered at the ease with which the puny Terran
forces toppled and eventually usurped the vast First Imperium.  The method
may have been as simple as that used by Cortez against the Aztec:  move
into the vacuum that the diseases you carry have created.  (To his credit,
Andrew posits that the Terrans, aware of the problem, would attempt to
assist, thus limiting the deaths to 5-10% of the population.  I'm not so
sure this is even possible, much less that it would have been feasible
under the circumstances.)>>

I think the Terrans would have been a little more mercenary, what with their
attitudes of the origin of the human race.  I even think they would have
purposely attempted some biological warfare, using some "Typhoid Mary"
carriers planted within Vilani society, if not outright biological
bombardment.  Could this be the reason that the Vegans "dislike" the Solomani?

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:54:25 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Trading Question; What is Superdense?

Peter writes:
>that here on Earth in the 20th Century, if you analyzed exactly what goods
>were being carried by traders roughly equivalent to Traveller Free Traders
>and Merchants (maritime vessels)

Actually I would argue that Free Traders and (small) Merchanters more
closely corespond to Independant Truckers in the 20th. Either way 99.9% of
shipped goods is freight, done for contract, not cargo, done for
speculation.

>It seems to me that, if I were building a random trade table for, say,
>Boston, I would have a much higher incidence of Steel (scrap or new) than,
>for example, Bananas.

You have to remember that the trade tables do not necessarily reflect the
major production of a region, but rather what can be picked up on
speculation.
The production of such mass goods as Steel are done to schedule and with
fixed production. In a steel producing region they are likely to have
existing large contracts with the big longhaul merchanters. I would say it
would be unlikely that you would be able to pick up an extra, speculative
load of Steel. Freight, certainly, if a big company has more than they can
ship they are most likely to sub-contract out delivery. They are unlikely
to just sell it off. They have an established channel for delivery. Like
the way Tukera has the wine market sewn up on Zila.
Now with something that isn't a major production for the area, like
bananas, there is a greater chance that someone received an overshipment,
or just couldn't get rid of it, and wants to dump it. They couldn't sell it
here so there is no point in them freighting it elsewhere. Better to just
sell it to some poor sap and be happy with the cash.
So I'm happy with a trade table with wide ranging goods on it sometimes
drifting into the bizzare.

>1). What is Superdense Made Of?
I've always assumed it was collapsed steel.

>2). What other high bulk materials would make up the majority of imported
>cargos in the Imperium?
I kind of like the MT divisions: raw materials, processed materials,
finished goods, (information).
On one segment you ship iron ore/ingots. On the next you ship sheet/bar
steel. On the last you ship park benches.

>Basic foodstuff is a good candidate.
Unless you have massive government subsidies this gets a bit expensive. It
costs you about .75Cr to ship an orange 6 jumps. For a special good (i.e.
like a candy bar, not like caviar) that's supportable, but for a boal of
oatmeal, that's a bit more. But, then, if the planet has loads of exports,
the government's income on exportation tax would be put to good use
subsidising imported goods.

>Unrefined or partly refined minerals from worlds with no refining at all I
>think would be rare.  Anyone with a bit of business sense can see the
>advantage of refining before shipping I think.
Unless you have a low tech planet who are good at digging the iridium ore
from the ground but lack the highly industrialised processes to refine it.
It isn't a simple as just importing a refinery somewhere in the outback.
There are a whole ream of tiertiary industries that have to be present to
support any involved industrial process.
I wouldn't rule out ore.

>Petroleum has value well after it's value as a fuel is no more.
But it will only occur on planets who have had life for millions of years.
I don't think that's too common in the canonical traveller universe. In my
own game there are none, and you can't get petroleum naturally anywhere. It
is still a useful and necessary commodity, and "cracking stations" existing
in orbit around gas giants. Taking methane and cracking it up to longer
length carbon chains (the opposite of refining). Plastic is used on luxary
goods due to its expense and rarity.

>Most construction would try to use indigenous materials to save on cost.
>This means to me that concrete or wood will not be on the "most imported"
>list.
Hey, look at just a sample of planets. How many of them have the
gravity-atmosphere-hydrosphere mix likely to produce forests? Not many.
Wood, though, is a renewable resource. The planets that are able to support
forests are often under inhabited, by Earth standards. It could be that
vast stretches are just forest that get harvested every decade or so.
(Imagine a huge, high-tech combine harvester scything through the woods!)
Concrete, well, you just need rock. Mind you, there was this guy from
Atlanta who visited me in Ireland and was amazed at the wealth of the
farmers as they could all have stone walls. Eventually I worked out that
there just aren't any quarries near Atlanta and raw rock is expensive and,
thus, fashionable. Could be planets like that.
You also need lime for Concerete. Limestone, like oil, is originally
bio-derived.  Lots of planets aren't going to be so maybe it will be a big
import. (I see a slightly sturdier combine harvester stripmining
limestone...)

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:31:36 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Cost of starships

Eris writes:
>Scott Ellsworth said:
> 
>>So, when looking at the Traveller piracy debate, do be aware that
>>these ships cost vastly, vastly more than equivalents do today,
> 
>Doesn't this argue that the current cost of Traveller ships is WAY too
>high? 

Yes it does. Unfortunately I don't think you can change that significantly
without more or less destroying the OTU. I've tried fiddling with the
numbers, but if you make ships much cheaper, you increase the number of
them, don't you? One scheme I've contemplated was to turn the universe
three-dimensional and make the Imperium about 100 parsecs deep, essentially
increasing the number of systems by 100, but without increasing the number
of inhabited systems significantly (I would distribute the canonical star
systems across the depths of the Imperium and link major ones with
intermediate way stations). I'd then decrease the cost of civilian ships
by a factor 10 while keeping military ships about the same (I haven't
figured out just how to justify that. Perhaps making armor really expensive
but much tougher (having a chance of surviving nuclear contact missiles,
perhaps?).) Anyway, as you can hear it would be a monumental task and
wouldn't really be Traveller.

What I'd really like was some way to make a cheap starfaring ship that
wouldn't be suitable for regular trade. You see, it wouldn't matter to
the _players_ if the characters had to spend a month in deep space
between each planetfall, because it wouldn't take any longer in real
time. But what? A cheap jump drive that misjumped (but always safely)
every once in a while? A really cheap warp drive requiring really low power
that was slower than 1 parsec/week? Unfortunately any cheap ship would
be able to carry freight cheaper than a normal jumpship unless it was
significantly slower. And once the characters have to spend _many_ months,
or even years, in space between planetfalls, the aging rules beging to make
a difference to the players.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:43:33 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Traveller Domain names

Somone mentioned "zhodani.org" and it got me thinking... what
Traveller-related domain names are out there? A lot are available, but
the names that are used outside of "Traveller" tend to be gone (i.e.
Aslan). Anyway, through the miracle of shell scripts, I munged this list
together... apologies for the size. I didn't query European domains
because they're on a separate WHOIS server and my shell programming
skills aren't _that_ good. (Also, here's to hoping I didn;t misspell
anything!)

Enjoy!

vargr.com
Jeff Lewis (VARGR-DOM)
   #212 1350 Madisson Ave.
   Burnaby, BC V5C 4Y7
   CA
vargr.org No match for "VARGR.ORG".
vargr.net No match for "VARGR.NET".
vargr.ca No match for "VARGR.CA".
zhodani.com No match for "ZHODANI.COM".
zhodani.org No match for "ZHODANI.ORG".
zhodani.net No match for "ZHODANI.NET".
zhodani.ca No match for "ZHODANI.CA".
solomani.com No match for "SOLOMANI.COM".
solomani.org No match for "SOLOMANI.ORG".
solomani.net No match for "SOLOMANI.NET".
solomani.ca No match for "SOLOMANI.CA".
droyne.com No match for "DROYNE.COM".
droyne.org No match for "DROYNE.ORG".
droyne.net No match for "DROYNE.NET".
droyne.ca No match for "DROYNE.CA".
hiver.com No match for "HIVER.COM".
hiver.org
hiver's inc (HIVER4-DOM)
   3010 avenue M, Brooklyn, New York, 11210
   New York, NY 11210
hiver.net
HUD MUD (HIVER3-DOM)
   ULITSI 2
   TUNDRA, MORDVA 123243
   RU
hiver.ca No match for "HIVER.CA".
aslan.com
Aslan Control Technologies (ASLAN-DOM)
   12 Sarah Lane
   Hopewell Junction, NY 12533
aslan.org
Aslan Cellular Communications Testing (ASLAN4-DOM)
   2230 Mt. Whitney Dr
   Pittsburg, CA 94565
   US
aslan.net
Aslan Communications, Inc. (ASLAN3-DOM)
   12 Sarah Lane
   Hopewell Junction, NY 12533
aslan.ca No match for "ASLAN.CA".
vilani.com No match for "VILANI.COM".
vilani.org No match for "VILANI.ORG".
vilani.net No match for "VILANI.NET".
vilani.ca No match for "VILANI.CA".
genoee.com No match for "GENOEE.COM".
genoee.org No match for "GENOEE.ORG".
genoee.net No match for "GENOEE.NET".
genoee.ca No match for "GENOEE.CA".
vland.com
Vitamin Land (VLAND2-DOM)
   5250 Strohm Ave.
   North Hollywood, CA 91601
   US
vland.org No match for "VLAND.ORG".
vland.net
StarPost (VLAND3-DOM)
   5250 Strohm Ave
   North Hollywood, CA 91601
   US
vland.ca No match for "VLAND.CA".
sylea.com
SYLEA (SYLEA-DOM)
   BP 218
   Parc d'Activites du Pas du Lac
   5, Avenue Newton
   Saint Quentin en Yvelines, Yvelines 78051
   France
sylea.org No match for "SYLEA.ORG".
sylea.net No match for "SYLEA.NET".
sylea.ca No match for "SYLEA.CA".

- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:45:37 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Viable population (was Re: Distinguishing the Vilani)

>Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:50:13 -0400
>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: re: Distinguishing the Vilani
>
>ObTrav: How many people does it take to make a viable breeding
>population on a colony world cut off by a long night? If your planet is
>a bunch of people under the minimum, what do you do? Change
>social codes on reproduction? 

Assuming that viability depends on genetic variability, the figure that
matters is "Effective Population Number" (N):

N = 4MF/(M+F)		[Kimura and Ohta, "Effective Population Number", 1977?]

where M and F equal the number of males and females, respectively.

Large differences in numbers of males and females reduce N towards the
lower number. Variation in average family size (number of offspring per
female), overlapping generations, and fluctuations in the population from
generation to generation also reduce N over time.

The "inbreeding coefficient" per generation (f) is given by:

f = 1/2N		[Franklin, "Evolutionary Change in Small Populations", 1980]

Animal breeders will accept f = 0.01, implying N = 50 for short-term
viability.

For long term viability, Franklin [ibid.] suggests N = 500.  "Below this
latter value, it is likely that genetic variance for complex traits is lost
at a significantly faster rate than it is renewed by mutation."

Animal breeders find that a population shows significant viability problems
when the inbreeding reaches 0.1, and may collapse altogether when it
reaches 0.5-0.6.  The number of generations (t) to reach this extiction
threshold also relates to N:

t ~ 1.5N		[Soule, "Thresholds for Survival:  Maintaining Fitness and
Evolutionary 			Potential", 1980]


To increase the effective population number, while the actual (census)
number remains constant, there are two basic strategies [Senner,
"Inbreeding Depression and the Survival of Zoo Populations"].  First, by
reducing the variation in family size as much as possible, the effective
population can be doubled over the random case.  The effective population
can also be doubled over the random case by control over breeding partners,
either through maximum avoidance of inbreeding or through deliberate
half-sibling or first cousin breeding (these last improve N even over max
avoidance of inbreeding, but only after ~16 generations).  The two
strategies overlap, so only one doubling is possible.  Needless to say, the
social impacts of either strategy on a human population are extreme.

Note that a bottleneck produced by ruthless culling may have the effect of
mitigating later inbreeding problems.  Grey wolf populations in Minnesota
seem to have experienced a severe bottleneck sometime in the past that
eliminated most (if not all) undesirable recessive genes. In one
experiment, breeders conducted brother-sister matings of grey wolves for
four generations without producing *any* bad recessives [presentation by
the Wolf Survival Group, Patuxent Wildlife Research Lab, 1986].

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 06:57:03 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Trade Statistics (was Re: Taxation and Military Spending)

>Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:53:30 -0500
>From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
>Subject: Re: Taxation and Military Spending
>
>At http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/ (the online CIA
>World Factbook) they've got the following information:

Excellent reference - thanks Steve!

>
>World population (1997):   5.85 billion
>US population:               268 million
>World GDP (1996 est.):   $35.8 trillion   +3.6% annually
=> per capita GWP:  $6,120 (~TL7 or ~TL8 Po)

>US GDP:                   $7.6 trillion   +2.4% annually
=> per capita GDP:  $28,358 (~TL9 Ri In Ag)

Exports, total value: $4.6 trillion (f.o.b., 1996 est.) = 12.8% GWP
	(f.o.b. = "free on board" pricing - cost at point of origin)

Imports, total value : $4.7 trillion (c.i.f., 1996 est.) = 13.1% GWP
	(c.i.f. = "cost, insurance, and freight" - includes shipping cost)

=> insurance and shipping = $0.1 trillion = 2.1% of cargo value

Merchant marine: 
total: 25,521 ships (1,000 GRT [=202.2 dton cargo] or over) totaling
442,276,527 GRT/701,647,274 DWT 

=> 17,330 GRT/ship = 1.7 million cf/ship = 3,505 dton/ship cargo capacity

=> 27,493 DWT/ship = 30,792 ston/ship = 27,934 mton/ship cargo capacity

=> 7.97 mton/dton = 35.5 lb/cf

ships by type: cargo 8,089 (31.7%), bulk 5,308 (20.8%), oil tanker 4,320
(16.9%), container 1,938 (7.6%), roll-on/roll-off cargo 1,034 (4.1%),
refrigerated cargo 1,022 (4.0%), other cargo 2,911 (11.4%; chemical tanker
920, combination bulk 307, combination ore/oil 279, barge carrier 22,
liquefied gas tanker 709, livestock carrier 52, multifunction large-load
carrier 62, specialized tanker 81, vehicle carrier 458, railcar carrier
21), passenger 899 (3.5%; passenger 298, passenger-cargo 117, short-sea
passenger 484) (1995 est.) 

=> presumably, Traveller statistics would not include so many oil tankers,
but would include the passenger traffic that goes by air.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:02:34 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Ship trade and economics

Tommy Grav writes:

>On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> 
>>As the rules are now (TNE rules excepted), a 40 year old ship is a
>>wonderful investment. Bank payments are one quarter those of a new ship
>>but incomes are the same.
> 
>But you are missing one obvious point. Apperance. It will be much easier
>for New Trade Inc, with their reliable new Free Trader to haul important
>cargo that needs to be at their destination on time, than for Joe Trader
>with his 35 year old freighter which ofen has problems making him sit
>dirtside or in orbit two, three days fixing it.

Not so. you are missing the point. Performance. Read what I wrote: _As
the rules are now_, a 40 year old ship is just as good as a brand new
ship.

>This is why companies today fase out their old cars/planes and buy new.
>Apperance and PR are important factors in getting business.

If someone can guarantee the same service for half the price, I doubt if
many businessmen will care how his equipment looks. As long as it is just
as reliable.
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:51:30 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Pirates take the whole ship?

(First a general note: The local network is buggy and I don't know if my
messages go out from here. I certainly haven't recieved any new mail for
48 hours. I'm taking the opportunity to reduce my backlog a bit, so if
you suddenly get several digests worth of messages from me in one go,
that's why. Apologies in advance if it bothers anyone.)

David P. Summers writes:

>Sun, 07 Jun 1998 09:41:40 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)

>Yeah, my point is that there are incentives both ways.  Yes a ship is worth
>a lot.  However, pirates who take the ship re going to be much higher
>priorities for law enforcement. Different pirates will be willing to take
>different risks and different situations will produce different amounts
>of risk. (For example, does the Imperium see all pirates as the same? Or
>do they concentrate on those who take whole ships and kill people, leaving
>the others as an after thought?)

Can you think of an enforcement scheme that will 1) allow the authorities
to distinguish between two sets of pirates and 2) be substantially
cheaper if they do concentrate on just one set?
 
>>Oddly, ships have anti-hijack programs...
> 
>Yes, they have _some_ security.  They already have computer so they stick
>some software on it. 

So what you're saying here is that if you're already paying for something
for some other purpose, then the use of it for some other purpose is
essentially free as long as it dosen't interfere too much with the original
purpose?

>The point is that you simply can't suppose that every measure you can think
>of will exist and hope to be realistic.

What if we restrict ourselves to measures that are economically sound (Ie.
will on the average save more money than they cost)? Will that enable us to
stay realistic?



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:24:09 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Viable Populations

As someone pointed out earlier, it's wonderful when you can come up
with a question about rocket science and someone on this list
provides you with input from real rocket scientists. It's the doses
of real science that help keep the hardness in the sci-fi around here.

A simple question that I thought would be hypothetical: How many
make a viable breeding population? Christopher Thrash (thanks Chris!)
provides a solid answer (500), the source (genetics research and
zoo/animal husbandry breeding program studies) and variables that
could affect the numbers.

Obtrav: Now we know that a planet with a population code of less than
two (and even half or so of those) is not viable on it's own, barring
TL for genetic engineering. It's going to be someone else's outpost,
a permanent base for a changing ever-transient population, or will
be the remnants of a population that's dying out. We knew that about
small planets anyway, but it's nice to know that it's in the two range
instead of the 3+ range.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:51:43 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Anti-Hijack (was: Pirates take the whole ship)

Hans Rancke wrote, re Anti-Hijack programs on Starships:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So what you're saying here is that if you're already paying for something
for some other purpose, then the use of it for some other purpose is
essentially free as long as it dosen't interfere too much with the original
purpose?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Anti-Hijack programs are not free, though their cost is minor...
my book isn't with me, Cr100,000? And while not free, the cost
might be included in the price of something else.

IMTU we haven't thought about software upgrades for computers.
Since the ship cost used to calculate annual maintenance includes
the cost of the computer, it stands to reason that getting the latest
version of Anti-Hijack would be included in the cost, if you already
had a version of it.

That would lead to a nasty, nasty place for a henchbeing of a Hijacking
ring to get a job: Computer Maintenance Technician at a starship annual
maintenance facility. 

Imperial Navy Intelligence Guy: OK Captain Freidland, here's the deal:
You get your annual maintenance done at this shipyard we've been
suspecting in the rash of hijackings lately, two of our special forces
guys ride with you as Cargo Hand and Gunner for a month or two
until the hijackers strike. We want these guys alive for questioning,
so our men will have the equipment to capture them. Do nothing out
of the ordinary, or they'll abort and we'll never even know they were on
your ship. Understand?
Captain Freidland: OK, OK...as long as you keep your end of the
bargain and forget about those smuggling charges...

And I think there are Model/1 computers that might have trouble running
Anti-Hijack, Generate and Jump Navigation programs at the same time.
This is CT, of course - later versions of the game were written with
much more faith in the future of computers... :)


Walt Smith

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #575
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 11 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 576



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re:  brown dwarfs
Re: Taxation and Military Spending
Re: Foreven Sector
Re: Piracy -- Imperial policy
Re: Lightbulbs
Re: Selling a starship
Re: Realistic approaches to prevention
Re: Does anyone know...
Amazon Planets
Re: Jump exit points
Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... )
RE: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka
Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... )
Re: Viable Populations
Re: Trading Question; What is Superdense?
Corsair from CT Legitamate Purposes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:03:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re:  brown dwarfs

Bruce Alan Macintosh writes:
> (Although it's also consistent with a much smaller fraction being
> L/brown dwarfs, though; the uncertainties are big. Note that these
> aren't fundamentally a new *discovery* so much as an ackowledgment
> that we finally have enough brown dwarfs that we need a way of 
> classifying them.

Incidentally, is '1/3 the mass of the sun, with a diameter close to jupiter' an
error?  That's sounds more like a white dwarf, 1/3 solar mass is enough to
ignite as an M class star.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:07:57 +0100
From: "Buston, John" <john.buston@eds.com>
Subject: Re: Taxation and Military Spending

In 1990 the top ten earth Navies (representing half the worlds pop had):

Manpower: 1.6 Million  --- Combat tonnage : 7.4 Million Tons (Water)

In traveller terms this is 530 000 DT of ships with an average of 3.0
men per DT (presumably including all roles on shore and at sea).

Current Earth Cargo Tonnage is in excess of 360 Million tons (water) or
26 Million DT (hydrogen). Broken down as follows:

Oil Tankers             38.4 %
Ore/Bulk Carriers    29.9 %
General Cargo        16.1 %
Container Ships       3.8 %
Liquid Gas              1.6 %
Passengers             0.5 %
Others                     9.7 %


John

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:59:57 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Foreven Sector

GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
>  Imperiallines saw two issues published and a double issue (3/4) proofed but
> never published...

Any chance of getting that issue sumehow. I was a subscriber, and was
disappointed when IL got discontinued!
- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:29:15 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Piracy -- Imperial policy

Walter Smith writes:

>Hans Rancke writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>They'll do it with nothing bigger than a turret-mount beam laser or
>>civilian-grade missile rack then. The Navy has less patience for
>>private military-grade flotillas than it does for Pirates - in fact, it
>>sees personal "defense forces" as more of a threat to the Imperium
>>than any pirate. 
> 
>Wherever did you get that idea? The Imperium allows merchant lines to have
>their own escort ships, member worlds to have their own navies, and
>(licenced) individuals to have cruisers squadrons.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> 
>(Nearly) anyone can put a turret-mount laser, civilian-grade missile
>rack or sandcaster on their merchantman.

Oh, you distinguish between civilian and military grade weapons. Fair
enough. Just be aware that CT didn't. Also, you are projecting your own
ideas onto the OTU. Do you have any evidence that the Imperium see
personal defense forces as more of a threat than any pirate? Bearing
in mind that it is perfectly willing to allow mercenaries (albeit
licenced mercenaries) to control cruiser squadrons? And what is going
to prevent a merchant company from getting a mercenary licence for
their own protection forces, come to that?

>Getting anything better means you have a mercenary charter, or are a
>subject government of the Imperium - either way, you are directly or
>indirectly controlled by the Imperium.

Well, if it comes to that, interstellar merchant companies need licencing
by the Imperium too, so they too are indirectly controlled by the Imperium.
 
>(ref: Mercenaries forced into "Bad War" contracts by the Imperium).

I don't get either the reference or the inference.
 
>Pirates steal ships. Allowing private military warfleets can forment
>rebellions that can steal subsectors.

The _Al Morai_ route protectors were surplus _Gazelles_, which are armed
with PA barbettes. More to the point, canonical pirates are equipped with
weapons no better than what the merchants have.

>Hans again:
> 
>Every tramp freighter I can recall seeing in a Traveller module have been
>armed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> 
>Armed with civilian-grade "defensive" weaponry. [...]
>
>Your pointing out that "every tramp freighter" is armed in the Imperium
>illuminates how dangerous the spacelanes of the Imperial frontiers must
>be to small merchant craft.

Of course they are. Just think of all the pirates that seem to be out
there! Only trouble is, it's a stone/paper/scissors argument. If all
merchants really are armed to the teeth, the poor pirate's cash flow
problem gets even bigger, since a single lucky shot can give him a
repair bill that'll wipe out years worth of profit.

>Think about it - the only thing those light weapons are good for is
>fending off a light commerce raider - a merchant gone bad, a privateer
>or a pirate. The Empire allows small merchant craft to mount these
>things (though in a limited fashion) - it would not allow it, nor would
>people do it if there weren't a need. Piracy, or the threat thereof, must
>exist in the frontier and less-developed areas of the Imperium.

<<Sound of me knocking my head against the wall>> For the umpteenth time:
I'm perfectly aware of all, or a least most, canonical references, overt
or oblique, to piracy. Since my original thesis is that those references
do not make sense when compared to other, equally canonical, references
and rules, I don't accept them as proof that they make sense. Did you
get that? [And yes, this time I am being rude. It comes from having
written the exact same thing less than a week ago. Let me make myself
absolutely clear on this: _The existence of canonical references to
piracy does not prove that said references are consistent with other
canonical rules and references._]. 
 
>Note GDP's Ship Operator's Manual - several example Free Traders are
>shown, with armament ranging from some sandcasters on a ship
>operating near core to triple beam lasers, triple missile rack and a
>salvaged military sensor suite on a frontier model (though the armed
>to the teeth Trader was listed as being in debt from the upgrades and
>taking some risky/shady cargoes to make up the losses). If the
>frontiers aren't dangerous due to piracy, why are free trader captains
>spending millions of credits on weapons and gunners?

See? It dosen't make sense, does it?

>I think the existance of Mercenary Charters is very revealing of
>Imperial policy towards member worlds. The Impies don't care if you
>get invaded by your neighbor world (ref: Vilis takes over Tanoose aka
>Garda-Vilis in the LBB Broadsword).

Vilis took over Tanoose before those two planets became part of the
Imperium. Garda-Vilis had been a colony of Vilis for as long as they
had been Imperial planets.

>The Ine Givar rebel group isn't mad about bad taste in Imperial decor,
>or protesting against posh villas for Viscounts and above - the Ine Givar
>and other subversive groups in the Imperium think the Empire is a
>Bad Idea.

Sure. Indeed, until and unless Andrew's excellent article about the Ine
Givar becomes canonical, that's all we know about the Ine Givar. They
were deliberately left as vague as possible to allow individual referees
to tailor tham as they saw fit. But that don't prove that it is a bad
idea. There are those who think Heaven is a bad idea.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:38:32 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Lightbulbs

All those lightbulb jokes were originally either written or collected by
Mike Metlay.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:35:18 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Selling a starship

Brannon "Ben" Boren writes:

>Thanks. This is just what I wanted.  But it brings up another question.
>When you aquire a ship as a mustering out benefit, has the 20% downpayment
>been made on it for you?

Yes. The first time you recieve a starship as a benefit you get it with 40
years of payments still due. For every time you recieve it again you get
10 years' payments knocked off. If you are lucky enough to recieve it 5
times, you own a 40 year old ship outright. And if he gets it 6 times I
suppose he'd have an additional ship (with 40 years' payments due)...
 
>Assuming the table above is the case:  The cash price is MCr 30.75, and you
>have only 80% of the principal remaining to pay off = MCr 24.6
> 
>So the question is, if you weren't interested in the trader's life, could
>you turn around and sell it for the bargain price of MCr 28 and retire on
>the extra few million credits? 

Yep. And if I was the Referee I'd tell you: "OK, your character retires in
comfort. Give me the character sheet, I'll put it in with my other NPCs.
Now please roll a new character that will fit into the campaign I've
designed."

IMO anything as valuable as a starship is something the Referee (and not the
character generation tables) hands out.

 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:54:47 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Realistic approaches to prevention

Greg Smith writes:

>[Thus sayeth Hans]:
>>
>>We didn't miss that. The question becomes what is an acceptable low. We
>>mentioned that ships are very expensive. You then suggested that maybe
>>pirates only stole the cargo. Only trouble with that is that it seems
>>extremely unlikely that any pirate could steal enough cargoes to pays
>>his expenses.
> 
>What would be the expenses that a pirate (or a band of pirates) would
>reasonably have?

Well, that would depend on several assumptions. For instance, if the pirate
is in a position to sell his ship, his income as a pirate would have to be
bigger than the income he could get from just selling the ship and living
off the interest. That's why I've repeatedly challenged any piracy
proponent to come up with a set of reasonable ground assumptions and
show me how a pirate could make a living.
 
>Ship Payments:  Even though corsairs are manufactured, I don't think
>there would be many pirates making payments...  :->

So why did the manufacturer build the ship in the first place? The very
fact that he did implies that he expected to sell it, which means that
he expected that someone would believe that he could make a living with
it. The buyer may have to pay the full cost up front, but that simply
transfers the problem from the bank to the owner.

>Life Support:  Only used when ship is in use.

And how do you propose that the pirates catch anything if the don't use
the ship?

>Maintenance:  Time based?  Usage based?  Regular "merchant" costs?

Usage based. Merchant costs if the pirates have a secure haven. Inflated
costs if they have to hide from the authorities. (Btw. I said in an
earlier post that for economic (not legal) purposes pirates and
privateers were much the same, but I was wrong there. Privateers can
get a better price on what they capture and they pay less inflated
costs.)  

>Living Expenses:  What standard of living?

CT life support costs are absolute. If pirates can get along with lower
life support costs then PCs ought to be allowed to as well.

>Intelligence Gathering:
>Bribery:

If you can come up with a scheme that will make intelligence gathering
useful, sure.
 
>What I'm asking, and maybe it was discussed some time ago, but how much
>would it take to keep a Pirate band going?

Tell me your assumptions and I'll make a stab at working out something
reasonable.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:23:25 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Does anyone know...

Andrew Akins writes:

>>What is the name of the Imperial Intellegence Service?
> 
>Well,  even though I've heard some people dispute its canon-ity, the
>Imperial Regency Intelligence Service (IRIS) is also an impressive
>intelligence agency. It was detailed in two back-to-back Challenge articles
>(I don't remember which ones).

It was also clearly (indisputably ;-) marked as a variant. 

>IRIS is also mentioned several times in Survival Margin.

True. Whoever wrote the TNS newsbriefs for Challenge goofed and mentioned
IRIS. In _Survival Margin_ GDW cleverly retrieved the ball by revealing that
Strephon had never heard of them before. In effect, the IRIS of the OTU was
a gigantic con job.
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:03:18 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Amazon Planets

Michael D. Peters writes:
>From: David J. Golden <goldendj@pcisys.net>
> 
>>ObTrav: Recontact adventure--a planet populated only by women, who
>>reproduce by artificial means and ensure that no embryo with a "Y"
>>chromosome is created ... how will they react to a crew composed of
>>James Kirk and a few other suchlikes ...
> 
> 
>Didn't Lois McMaster Bujold do something on this, with a wolrd full of males
>reproduced by artificial means and only a few women kept around for the
>"Nobility". Can't remember the name but i think it had Sparta in it?

You're thinking about A. Bertram Chandler's book "Spartan Planet". Bujold's
book was named "Ethan of Athos" and the planet had no women at all. Most of
the action took place off planet, btw. Poul Anderson had one with women only.
I think it was called "Amazon Planet", but I may be thinking of a Mack
Reynolds story (though that planet was just a matriachy with as many men as
women).


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "Could you not begin at the beginning and go on until you come
	 to the end, and then, if you are able to, stop?"
	"I'll try," said his lordship, "but I always find the stopping
	 business so difficult."
			--- "Murder must advertise" by Dorothy Sayers

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:17:07 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Jump exit points

David P. Summers writes:

>>    ...Since it is quite true that a planet moves quite a bit in two days
>>the very fact that the rules do not mention any great variation in travel
>>times regardless of the duration of the jump makes it likely that the jump
>>exit point moves with the planet.
> 
>My take on the rules it that it seems clear that this issue has not
>been considered, not that it was decided that the exit point moves
>with the planet.  In my book this goes under things not constrained
>by canon.

Since I happen to have brought on of the relevant rule books with me today,
I think I'll just answer that with a quote:

"10) _Emerge From Jumpspace_. The ship emerges from jumpspace. The ship
emerges at the limit of the gravity well (at about 100 diameters out) of
the destination world that the navigator designated in jump preparation."
				_Imperial Encyclopedia_, p. 93
 

 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:37:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... )

Scott Ellsworth writes:
> 
> High tech goodies usually have little problems like this, that we all agree
> to ignore, much like the causality problems produced by ump drives.

Most of them actually can be fixed, but require some minor modifications to do
so.  CG and thruster plates actually aren't hard.

For contragravity, assume that the CG unit includes some form of high-
efficiency capacitor (which may or may not be usable as a normal battery) which
charges as the CG unit loses altitude, and discharges as it gains altitude.  If
the capacitor runs down, the CG unit will stop providing lift.  You can make a
CG unit capable of high orbit if you give it a capacitance of 13 megajoules per
kilonewton.

For a thruster plate, adding a fuel requirement of 0.00012 liters LHyd/kN/hour
(0.02 liters/week) turns a thruster plate into a matter converter instead --
this corresponds to light-speed emission of the fuel.  This has the side effect
that if you assume the typical 100 dt ship masses 500 tons and is capable of 1
G, it needs 1% of its tonnage to be hydrogen fuel to have an endurance of one
week (which _nicely_ matches the CT fuel requirements, though in CT they were
for the power plant, not the drive).

For black globes, much complicated math would be required to avoid violations
of thermodynamics, as long as you want absorbed power to be usable to power
your ship.  If black globe capacitance is just thermal storage or some such
this ceases to be a significant problem, though it is still a problem as long
as the black-body temperature of the globe is lower than the temperature of the
storage unit.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:42:14 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka

>But consider the impact of the first contact with Terrans on the Ziru
>Sirka.  The Vilani have no endemic diseases:  anything that could prey on
>humans died off hundreds of thousands of years ago (for want of reservoir
>populations of compatible animals).


But in the meantime, the Vilani had colonized thousands of worlds.  ONE of
them HAD to have bacteria/viruses . . .

Brian Mays

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:45:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... )

Anthony Jackson writes:
 
> For a thruster plate, adding a fuel requirement of 0.00012 liters
> LHyd/kN/hour (0.02 liters/week)....
Grumble...make this kilograms instead.  0.28 liters/week.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:13:23 +0100 (BST)
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Viable Populations

>A simple question that I thought would be hypothetical: How many
>make a viable breeding population? Christopher Thrash (thanks Chris!)
>provides a solid answer (500), the source (genetics research and
>zoo/animal husbandry breeding program studies) and variables that
>could affect the numbers.

Isn't that 500 Effective Population (N) where N=4MF/M+F for long term
viablity, which assuming equal number of males and females gives a viable
popultion of 250, without best breeding, and with best breeding gives a
viable population of 126 (rounding up to get equal males and felames).

( in N=4MF/M+F
if M=F	then M+F = 2y
	and 4MF = 4 y squared
Thus N = (4 y squared) / 2y
Thus N = 2 y
Thus y = N/2 
QED )

If we go for short term viability with N = 50 then we get with best
breeding a viable population in the short term of 12, six male, 6 female
..... !!!!!!! (that's if I read Chris's post correctly and my maths is
still good)

Therefore Traveller code 2+ is viable in the long term, although very
restricted in breeding patterns, and Traveller code 1+ is viable in the
short term with extreamly restrictive reproductive patterns.

	Ewan Quibell
	Data Communications Technician        The Game's afoot:
	Computer Centre                       Follow your spirit, and apon
	University of Brighton                  this charge
                                              Cry 'God for Harry, England,
	E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              and Saint George !'

                                                    Henry V 3:1
	#include<stddisclamer.h>                    W. Shakespeare

	My spelling is entierly due to dyslexia, typoes and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:52:23 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Trading Question; What is Superdense?

Jo Said;
>Peter writes:
>Actually I would argue that Free Traders and (small) Merchanters more
>closely corespond to Independant Truckers in the 20th. Either way 99.9% of
>shipped goods is freight, done for contract, not cargo, done for
>speculation.

Good point.

>>It seems to me that, if I were building a random trade table for, say,
>>Boston, I would have a much higher incidence of Steel (scrap or new) than,
>>for example, Bananas.
>You have to remember that the trade tables do not necessarily reflect the
>major production of a region, but rather what can be picked up on
>speculation.[snip]
> I would say it
>would be unlikely that you would be able to pick up an extra, speculative
>load of Steel.

Right, so a speculative trade table may *not* need to weight in favor of
heavily produced products, since the table is intended to represent small
lots which are not being regularly shipped by a major line, or which are
surplus to the line.

>So I'm happy with a trade table with wide ranging goods on it sometimes
>drifting into the bizzare.

...and products which could not possibly be mined/grown/made on a given
world (or at least, not without a lot of trouble) are in the process of
being transshipped from another world.

>>1). What is Superdense Made Of?
>I've always assumed it was collapsed steel.

So refined Iron Ore and steel (scrap or otherwise) in raw form is a major
import of high tech Starport 'A' and 'B' owning planets.  As you say,
though, this can be considered moot for speculative trade tables.

>>2). What other high bulk materials would make up the majority of imported
>>cargos in the Imperium?
>I kind of like the MT divisions: raw materials, processed materials,
>finished goods, (information).
>On one segment you ship iron ore/ingots. On the next you ship sheet/bar
>steel. On the last you ship park benches.

I guess I want one level of detail lower than that (raw materials,
processed materials), I want the table to say "bar steel" or "iron ingots".
My original thought in this vein was that the bulk of (forex) "raw
materials" would be just a few specific items (Iron Ore, Petroleum, etc),
with the one or two items being 80% or the probability, while the other 20%
is many more items.

[snip foodstuff discussion]
>>Unrefined or partly refined minerals from worlds with no refining at all I
>>think would be rare.  Anyone with a bit of business sense can see the
>>advantage of refining before shipping I think.
>Unless you have a low tech planet who are good at digging the iridium ore
>from the ground but lack the highly industrialised processes to refine it.
>It isn't a simple as just importing a refinery somewhere in the outback.
>There are a whole ream of tiertiary industries that have to be present to
>support any involved industrial process.
>I wouldn't rule out ore.

I wouldn't rule it out in certian circumstances, but if you have a source
of ore, why not bring in the refining equipment to convert it to smaller
tonnage?

The one reference I could find put the iron content of ore at 58% to 59%.
Processing this seemed to be a mostly magnetic and crushing operation to
convert to export-grade ore.  After that we get into coking and blast
furnaces, or alternate technologies just being explored (electrolysis,
plasma seperation, etc) to purify the iron.  I see no reason not to have
these operations moved to the site of the mining at high tech levels
assuming there are no impediments like a hostile local government.  The
one-time cost of constructing and starting up the plant is balanced by
saving in 40% of the shipping costs over the life of the mine.

Of course, as you say, free traders are picking up odd lots and non-large
scale cargos, so a lot of unrefined iron ore should not be out of the
question.

>>Petroleum has value well after it's value as a fuel is no more.
>But it will only occur on planets who have had life for millions of years.
>I don't think that's too common in the canonical traveller universe.

I disagree.  It seems as though there is life where there are oceans, and
atmosphere in Traveller.  The canonical Scouts (Book 6) temperature formula
aside (where all planets are either burning hot or frozen solid) the
original game seems to be a universe teeming with life - why else make
animal encounters so big a part of the game?  I was recently reading
through Leviathan (Adv. 6?) and of the 12 or so planets the players are
supposed to explore, I think 2 were Terra Prime and many of the others were
capable of supporting life without assistance.

In the Aramis subsector alone, from The Traveller Adventure, At least Zila,
Nasemin, Aramanx, Junidy, and Pysadi (off the top of my head) have native
life (some may be imported, but Zila, Junidy, and Nasemin definitely have
native life).

>>Most construction would try to use indigenous materials to save on cost.
>>This means to me that concrete or wood will not be on the "most imported"
>>list.
>Hey, look at just a sample of planets. How many of them have the
>gravity-atmosphere-hydrosphere mix likely to produce forests? Not many.

Well, several.  Again ignoring the Book 6 temperature thing and paying
attention to the text from adventures, not the numbers in the UPP (which do
not indicate the presence of trees, only their absence).  All the planets
above (except NAsemin, which is a water world) could support trees of some
kind.  In fact Pysadi has the Howood tree, prized for its great strength
(due to the natural incorporation of ferrous metals in the wood) and beauty.

My point, however, was that if a local material can be used at less expense
than importing one, the local material will predominate.  I didn't mean
that *no* imported materials would be used, just that they would not be
used for the majority of the building on the planet, and therefore would
not necesarily occupy the vast majority of the imported tonnage of a planet.

To wrap it up though, I think you are right in that the speculative cargos
available will be odd items; non-bulk, random lots of products not shipped
by the producer for some reason, or in excess of the usual production.

Since I think we rarely care about the content of freight (until it leaks
all over the cargo bay) I think there is only a need for the one table of
speculative cargos.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:58:38 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Corsair from CT Legitamate Purposes

I ran the numbers last night on a 400tn Corsair. I wanted to see how
it could be explained built at a legitimate shipyard for legitimate
economic purposes before it started it's life of crime. I constructed it
with Book 2 CT rules, and assumed no cost for the special features
of variable electronic signature, variable transponder, and fake
extensible fins/modules to change visual profile - I assumed these
last items would be illegal after-market conversions, and had no way
of estimating costs for them anyway.

Construction was around MCr 167. I put a slow boat in the 160-ton
hold, and assumed it would travel with the slow boat's hold filled with
cargo. I added the boat because I figured this to be a frontier sector
armed merchant, and being unstreamlined in a low-facilities area
can really hamper you as a legit merchant.

Even with the hold filled, the low berths all in use and the two spare
staterooms occupied high passengers, she was clearing about 
Cr97000 a trip before bank payment...but bank payment was about
Cr350000 per trip.

This baby isn't making money on Jump-2 cargo haul runs between
regular ports. It needs some other niche, not necessarily covered by
the run-of-the-mill starship economics rules. For example:

Armed Trader: At what point is it more cost-effective to make a trader
that can escort itself? It's a comprimise between a Patrol Cruiser's
50 ton cargo bay and a Subsidized Merchant's 1G acceleration.
You need a special route with specific long-term dangers - perhaps
a trade route near or just inside the Vargr extents? Two of these ships
have more combat performance than a Sub Merchant escorted by a 
Patrol Cruiser, and carry 70tons more cargo besides. The cargo needs
a major markup, and thus must be vital - it has to travel for about Cr4000
a ton to make up the bank payment, plus extra for risk involved.
One (at least) of the Megacorps have secret manufacturing plants
beyond the Imperial border, I've heard of one to make Psi-drugs.
They may want some special ships to move those cargos.

Exploratory Trader: A little expensive for a trading company, but still
doable - think "Leviathan Merchant Cruiser" on a smaller scale.
You'd need a reason the area was thought profitable, and a reason
it was thought dangerous. One load of contragrav generators taken
to a TL7 first-contact planet can pay your bank payment for a 
long, long time...it would be enough to retire on, except that it
has to pay expenses for your half-dozen sister ships that didn't make
any big first-contact trading scores this quarter.

Fleet Auxiliary: Fast, self-escorting supply ship for bases and
on-station patrols in forward areas of dangerous zones. Gov't pays
the tab, probably owns the ship.

A war scare ends, bases fall into disuse or are supplied by normal
means, the Fleet Auxialiary is paid off. The region the Exploratory
Traders were making lots of money on is incorporated into the Empire,
with Imperial trade law, Imperial starport security, no profits for
such mavericks. The dangerous area you needed the Armed Merchant
for becomes too dangerous, or the trade route closes...you're at loose
ends. 

This strikes me as a ship made for a special purpose that could,
during the life of the ship, become untenable. The ship would be
paid off, or repossessed and auctioned, or perhaps even stolen
by a crew that got too many ideas from the holovids...it might just
go off on a trade mission and not return, at least not in recognizable
form.

As usual, when given a bit in a universe you can make up enough
other bits to let it make sense....<G>


Walt Smith

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #576
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 11 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 577



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Does anybody know?
Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka
Re: Cost of starships
Re: Pirates take the whole ship?
RE: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka
Re: Trading Question; What is Superdense?
Re: Does anyone know...
Re: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka
Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka
What is IIRC?
Re: Pirates take the whole ship?
Re: What is IIRC? 
Re: What is IIRC?
Re: Lightbulbs
Re: Selling a starship
RE: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka
Re: Viable Populations
*New* technology for the uninformed
Jump into Interstellar Void
Re: Starbases
Milieu E21 and Space Construction: My Frustration
Re: Jump exit points

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:46:16 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Does anybody know?

> From: Andy Slack <AndySlack@compuserve.com>
> 
> From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
> >What is the name of the Imperial Intellegence Service?
> 
> Now, does anyone know the name of the one for the Sword Worlds?????<

I've always assumed that the Joyeuse's intelligence and
counter-intelligence service was called simple La Surete', although it
might have an official name as well (L'Agence pour la Surete' de l'Etat,
for example).  It directs a fair amount of its energies to keeping track
of what Gram is doing.  

I've heard the name of the Sword Worlds Confederation intelligence
service, but if told you, I'd have to kill you.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:49:02 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka

> From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>

> But consider the impact of the first contact with Terrans on the Ziru
> Sirka.  The Vilani have no endemic diseases:  anything that could prey on
 
> Historians have often wondered at the ease with which the puny Terran
> forces toppled and eventually usurped the vast First Imperium.  The method

See Jared Diamond's new book, Guns, Germs and Steel, for good analysis
of the role of disease in human history.  I don't think he'd find the
Plague of Duskir implausible.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:36:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brannon Boren <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Cost of starships

> >Doesn't this argue that the current cost of Traveller ships is WAY too
> >high? 
> 
> Yes it does. Unfortunately I don't think you can change that significantly
> without more or less destroying the OTU. I've tried fiddling with the
> numbers, but if you make ships much cheaper, you increase the number of
> them, don't you? 
>       Hans Rancke


Actually, I think that decreasing the cost of ships only goes toward
*justifying* how there are so many ships in the Imperium under private
ownership. I kind of like the idea of winning the Millenium Falcon in a
high stakes poker game  ;)

Ben

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:42:20 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Pirates take the whole ship?

Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:51:30 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>Yeah, my point is that there are incentives both ways.  Yes a ship is worth
>>a lot.  However, pirates who take the ship re going to be much higher
>>priorities for law enforcement. Different pirates will be willing to take
>>different risks and different situations will produce different amounts
>>of risk. (For example, does the Imperium see all pirates as the same? Or
>>do they concentrate on those who take whole ships and kill people, leaving
>>the others as an after thought?)

>Can you think of an enforcement scheme that will 1) allow the authorities
>to distinguish between two sets of pirates and 2) be substantially
>cheaper if they do concentrate on just one set?

Well, I don't see piracy as common so its not likely that you
will have multiple sets of pirates working in the same area.
Also, while I don't see a sure fire way as labeling a ship
as "pirate" I do think law enforcement would work by taking
clues to a possible identity of the ship and using those to
check ships that match the profile more closely (which is
common in law enforcement), so that if they are checking
ships like yours more closely, then you have more chance
of getting caught.  Finally, it might also be that higher
profile crimes step up all anti-piracy efforts.  Most
pirates don't do this because it makes things too hot for
them and when a loose canon comes along they all lay low
until he is gone.

>>>Oddly, ships have anti-hijack programs...
>>
>>Yes, they have _some_ security.  They already have computer so they stick
>>some software on it.
>
>So what you're saying here is that if you're already paying for something
>for some other purpose, then the use of it for some other purpose is
>essentially free as long as it dosen't interfere too much with the original
>purpose?

No, I'm saying they will pay _some_ cost and this is one of
the cheaper ones.  OTOH, I certainly wouldn't call it "wrong"
if not every ship had anti-hijack.

>>The point is that you simply can't suppose that every measure you can think
>>of will exist and hope to be realistic.

>What if we restrict ourselves to measures that are economically sound (Ie.
>will on the average save more money than they cost)? Will that enable us to
>stay realistic?

Pretty much.  You get into the question of short term vs long
term savings (does someone sell a 100,000 Cr program to buy
speculative cargo because he is only a 1/1,000, or maybe
1/10,000, shot of ever being pirated?) and just stupidity
(just like people don't buckle their set belts, he doesn't
have security because he can't be bothered).  But it would
be a lot closer.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:43:57 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: RE: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka

> But in the meantime, the Vilani had colonized thousands of worlds.  ONE of
> them HAD to have bacteria/viruses . . .

Just like North America already had bacteria/viruses when the Conquistadors
came.  Of course, i'd expect Solomani to have run into a fair share of hostile
and possibly lethal bacteria/viruses too...  Maybe not alot, but at least a
few... of course, maybe they followed decontamination procedures for
themselves but didn't think (or care) about teh Vilani.  Any record of any
minor human races going completely extinct?  

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:43:59 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Trading Question; What is Superdense?

> Actually I would argue that Free Traders and (small) Merchanters more
> closely corespond to Independant Truckers in the 20th. Either way 99.9% of
> shipped goods is freight, done for contract, not cargo, done for
> speculation.

Don't know of many truckers out there driving trucks worth tens of millions.
The only millionarie trucker i know of is Karl Malone (of the NBA Utah Jazz)
and he only does it for fun.  

Agree completely w/ the freight bit.

> I disagree.  It seems as though there is life where there are oceans, and
> atmosphere in Traveller.  The canonical Scouts (Book 6) temperature formula
> aside (where all planets are either burning hot or frozen solid) the
> original game seems to be a universe teeming with life - why else make

MT Refs Manual says in the "Starfarers" sidebar (pg7) that "life is
everywhere.  Worlds naturally spawn their own life forms, and many produce
intellegent species."


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:39:10 -0500
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Re: Does anyone know...

Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:
>Subject: Re: Does anyone know...
>
>Andrew Akins writes:

[snip]
>
>It was also clearly (indisputably ;-) marked as a variant.
>

Very true. I should have noted that.

>>IRIS is also mentioned several times in Survival Margin.
>
>True. Whoever wrote the TNS newsbriefs for Challenge goofed and mentioned
>IRIS. In _Survival Margin_ GDW cleverly retrieved the ball by revealing that
>Strephon had never heard of them before. In effect, the IRIS of the OTU was
>a gigantic con job.


I never understood why, however. I kindof liked IRIS, and used it in my
campaigns. I never really heard why people weren't fond of it.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+  |
|       vi+ da+                                                      |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                           |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:53:08 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka

Brian Mays wrote:

> But in the meantime, the Vilani had colonized thousands of worlds.  ONE of
> them HAD to have bacteria/viruses . . .

The kicker is that not one of those planets had ever had humans living
on it for the last few million years or so, or had had close contact
with terrestrial mammalian immune systems for hundreds of millions
more...

Vilani probably classified planets where people sickened and died as
uninhabitable. This opens up _lots_ of real estate for the Terrans to
take in the old Ziru Sirka...once humans figured out _why_ all those
worlds were red zoned. Imagine the morale collapse when these upstarts
come barging in from terra and promptly settle and thrive in places that
killed your people in droves...

But this is getting me dragged closer to the whole damn 'Plague of
Duskir' debate which dragged on almost as long as the $@#!% piracy,
feudal technocracy, and near-C rock threads, and I'll claw my way out of
it by saying it's canon, it happened, deal with it. (And NO it's NOT a
reason that the Rule of Man was TL46 or some such either!!!)


<feeling cranky today...must be catching>

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:54:37 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka

Gary wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
> But in the meantime, the Vilani had colonized thousands of worlds.  ONE of
> them HAD to have bacteria/viruses . . .

Just like North America already had bacteria/viruses when the Conquistadors
came.  Of course, i'd expect Solomani to have run into a fair share of hostile
and possibly lethal bacteria/viruses too...  Maybe not alot, but at least a
few... of course, maybe they followed decontamination procedures for
themselves but didn't think (or care) about teh Vilani.  Any record of any
minor human races going completely extinct?  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Discovering the remains of lost civilizations seems to be a common
enough theme in the OTU, I'm sure some succumbed to disease.

Anne Mcaffrey, IIRC, wrote a series about ships with human brains - 
explorers in her Ship universe were almost certain to get at least one
life-threatening disease during their careers, and she had a scene where
an unexpected fungus (or insect bite, or something like that) wiped
out a reasearch station by causing temporary brain malfunction - the
people were so mentally debilitated that they couldn't open food packs
or turn on water taps, much less turn on commos to call for help.
She also had a scene where a bunch of interstellar barbarians were
infected with a nasty little gengineered flu, which had some bits
from Parkinson's disease mixed in with it.

IIRC, North America gave Europe several fun diseases - one of the
major sexually transmitted ones, a nice variety of dysentery...


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:55:42 -0500
From: eldwyn@juno.com
Subject: What is IIRC?

Excuse my lack of knowledge, I usually pick up on these abbreviations
easily, but what does *IIRC* stand for. I see that every once in a while
and can't tell what it means.

Thanks,

MarioC
eldwyn@juno.com

- --Imagine Whirled Peas...

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:10:03 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Pirates take the whole ship?

At 12:51 PM 6/11/98 +0200, Hans wrote:
>Can you think of an enforcement scheme that will 1) allow the authorities
>to distinguish between two sets of pirates and 2) be substantially
>cheaper if they do concentrate on just one set?

There is one - spend a lot of time preventing hot ships from being sold,
and track them.  They are expensive enough and few enough that
concentrating on those who steal ships could be pretty efficient.  The
downside is that you will need inspectors on the places where hot ships
must gather, such as maintenance yards or starports.  These do not seem
dramatically fewer in number to me than the number of mainworlds to
protect, but this is open to argument.

I still feel that the best way to prevent this is to put a handful of
patrollers in each system, and to have standard procedures that make piracy
noticeable, but if you have religious objections to the minimal enforcement
needed to make mainworld trade absolutely safe, there are alternatives.
For example, one could posit that maintenance is very difficult, and thus
place inspectors on every class A and B port.

(NB - piracy far outside the mainworlds, piracy in in system travel, or
piracy taking place with the tacit agreement of the government/port owners
is clearly going to be possible.  In fact, I am reworking the trade rules
IMTU so that cargoes going to places not protected by patrollers have a
much higher margin to cover the risk, and thus are attractive to players.)

IMTU, the Imperium only promises trade protection to certain (logical)
areas, and attempting to set up shop outside those areas is what opens up
the outsystem to piracy. 

>>>Oddly, ships have anti-hijack programs...
>> 
>>Yes, they have _some_ security.  They already have computer so they stick
>>some software on it. 
>
>So what you're saying here is that if you're already paying for something
>for some other purpose, then the use of it for some other purpose is
>essentially free as long as it dosen't interfere too much with the original
>purpose?

Hmm.  I have an idea where you are going with this...

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:34:13 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: What is IIRC? 

> Excuse my lack of knowledge, I usually pick up on these abbreviations
> easily, but what does *IIRC* stand for. I see that every once in a while
> and can't tell what it means.

"If I Re-Call"

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:35:08 -0500
From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
Subject: Re: What is IIRC?

At 01:55 PM 6/11/98 , eldwyn@juno.com wrote:
>Excuse my lack of knowledge, I usually pick up on these abbreviations
>easily, but what does *IIRC* stand for. I see that every once in a while
>and can't tell what it means.

IIRC
<chat> If I recall/remember correctly. 

If you want to find stuff like this, go to http://www.AskJeeves.com and
type "What Does IIRC stand for?"

In this case it will point you to Princeton Univ's Free On-line Dictionary
of Computing.
http://wfn-shop.princeton.edu/foldoc/cgi-script?IIRC

ObTrav: How available are general reference works?  Is library data just a
free uplink away?  Or do PCs have to pay for info?
>--------------
Michael Croft                                "Babeheart?  What's it about?"
mailto:Croft@neosoft.com            "It's about a cute little pig that 
http://www.neosoft.com/~croft    slaughters the English" -- Freakazoid
>--------------
    

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:26:42 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Lightbulbs

At 04:38 PM 6/10/98 +0200, you wrote:
>All those lightbulb jokes were originally either written or collected by
>Mike Metlay.

They are also collected at http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/litebulb.html as
part of Traveller: The Silly Era.  There are a few additions to the list,
plus some of the Babylon 5 lightbulb jokes.
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:46:54 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Selling a starship

At 04:35 PM 6/10/98 +0200, you wrote:

>Yes. The first time you recieve a starship as a benefit you get it with 40
>years of payments still due. For every time you recieve it again you get
>10 years' payments knocked off. If you are lucky enough to recieve it 5
>times, you own a 40 year old ship outright. And if he gets it 6 times I
>suppose he'd have an additional ship (with 40 years' payments due)...

I always allowed improvements.. like weaponry, or newer drives.

>>So the question is, if you weren't interested in the trader's life, could
>>you turn around and sell it for the bargain price of MCr 28 and retire on
>>the extra few million credits? 
>
>Yep. And if I was the Referee I'd tell you: "OK, your character retires in
>comfort. Give me the character sheet, I'll put it in with my other NPCs.
>Now please roll a new character that will fit into the campaign I've
>designed."
>
>IMO anything as valuable as a starship is something the Referee (and not the
>character generation tables) hands out.

One of the things I really liked about TNE was the ship table.  It both
accurately reflected the various contributions characters would make to a
ship, and allowed a little role-play in the character generation process.
Characters could opt to get a 40-year old rustbucket that was paid for, or
a shiny new ship that had a morgage heavier than 2 meters of Bonded
Superdense.
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:41:27 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: RE: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka

>Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:42:14 -0700
>From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
>Subject: RE: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka
>
>But in the meantime, the Vilani had colonized thousands of worlds.  ONE of
>them HAD to have bacteria/viruses . . .
>

That were compatible with Terran-derived biochemistry?  Remember, disease
organisms are parasites, adapted to life in a particular host or hosts.

Actually, I find it hard to believe that *none* of the micro-organisms on
Vland were capable of preying on humanoids in the first place, but that's
what it says in this book right here....<shrug>

I'll buy that the Vilani probably had been exposed to some compatible
micro-life prior to first contact with the Terrans - from other, more
biologically successful minor human colonies, if nowhere else.

The point still remains (which I understand has been "done to death",
though that was before my time) that the Vilani and their clients had never
been exposed to the full panoply of critters-that-thrive-on-humans, and
(per canon) lacked the medical science to respond effectively.  This is a
recipe for disaster of galactic proportions.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:50:32 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Viable Populations

>
>Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:13:23 +0100 (BST)
>From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
>Subject: Re: Viable Populations
>
>Isn't that 500 Effective Population (N) where N=4MF/M+F for long term
>viablity, which assuming equal number of males and females gives a viable
>popultion of 250, without best breeding, and with best breeding gives a
>viable population of 126 (rounding up to get equal males and felames).
>
>( in N=4MF/M+F
>if M=F	then M+F = 2y
>	and 4MF = 4 y squared
>Thus N = (4 y squared) / 2y
>Thus N = 2 y
>Thus y = N/2 
>QED )
>

Simple mistake:  total population still consists of males and females (2y =
N).

You are correct, however, that by careful management the actual population
could be as low as 26 (13 male, 13 female) for a few generations and still
maintain an effective population of greater than 50.  But as the species
survival guys put it:  that's the minimum, not the goal.

In fact, you could get by with even fewer if you had to, you simply run the
risk of dying out from inbreeding.  I've seen figures to suggest that a
species can come back from a single generation as small as 4 (totally
unrelated) members, if it then builds back up to N > 500 as rapidly as
possible.  You lose about 25% of genetic variability in the process.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:29:04 -0500
From: eldwyn@juno.com
Subject: *New* technology for the uninformed

On TV the other day I saw a cop stop a suspect who was selling drugs, but
the guy kept denying everything. Well, the cop had a little toy he just
bought for his kid: a tiny keychain with buttons that made synthezied
sci-fi sounds like ray-guns, ufos, etc. The officer took the toy and
*scanned* the dealer with it the same way McCoy used his medical device
in StarTrek.

The *scanner* confirmed that the guy had drugs on him, and he then
confessed and was taken in. Some people just don't know what may or may
not be real on a new world (new to them) and can be easily taken in. I
suspect that this  becomes increasingly possible when dealing across
different TLs and cultures.

Dealing with the appropriate bluffing rolls, of course, this will
definitaly become a factor in my player's next stop by a naval ship or
security base. And of course, some of these things *will* be real.

What other devices or bluffing scenarios can you think of? Something
besides contraband: perhaps lie detectors, disease alarms, etc...

MarioC
eldwyn@juno.com

- --Imagine Whirled Peas...

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:17:26 +0200
From: Deligiannidis Nikolaos <nikolaos.deligiannidis@stud.tu-muenchen.de>
Subject: Jump into Interstellar Void

Is it possible to jump into the  interstellar void between two star systems,
and jump again into a system!
Example :  You have a TL10 shipbuilding capacity ( max. Jump 1 ) and the distance
to your neighboring system is  2pc. It is impossible to get there with a
normal Jump 1 ship!
But what if my ship has enough jump fuel for 2 one-parsec jumps. Now it
would be possible
to reach the next system in about two weeks!
    How the first UNSCA ( United Nations Space Coordinating Agency )
expedition reached
Barnard's star ( 1,8339 pc )? I thought the Terrans had TL9 when they
encountered the Vilain-i.
:-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:44:47 -0700
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Starbases

> From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
> >>   AFAIK, Titan Games (www.titan-games.com) carries them in new condition,
> >$4 US.
> >> Also lots of other JG stuff, and used GDW product. Try their "Sale"
> >section.
> >>         Steven Hudson
> >Just one little problem here, did you know that JG's stuff cannot be sold
> >in the US.  Walt Bludsoe still "owes" the IRS lots & lots of cash.  So how
> >are they selling JG product?
> Oh please.

Then, why was the last time I talked to Bob Bludsoe, his father still
cannot sell the stuff becuase of the IRS?

Legate, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 1998 17:34 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Milieu E21 and Space Construction: My Frustration

I may be harping, but the best way to get suggestions and
opinions is to bounce ideas off you-all.

What is the annual tonnage of spacecraft constructed by Earth?
And what percentage of her world budget does she pay to build 
it and put it in place?

If one HANDWAVES that the annual space construction budget for 
Earth is 0.1% of the world budget, then in the Traveller world
we would have perhaps 20 billion credits (Imperial) to spend on
all aspects of space: communication, transport, military, trade.
This is new construction, not maintenance.  Maintenance is
covered elsewhere in the space budgets.

By the way, BCr20 (Imperial) is perhaps around US$57 billion.

BCr20 is, per year, for example:

	125 Free Traders	 MCr40/ea	BCr5
	 16 System Defense Boats MCr300/ea	BCr5
	 71 Liners		 MCr70/ea	BCr5
	 12 Patrol Ships	 MCr400/ea	BCr5
	--- ------------
	224 ships, 78,800 tons: 1500 displacement tons per week.

But the Earth manages to build, per year:

	  <1 shuttles
	  X pieces of a space station
	  A bunch of satellites

So, are all of my assumptions wrong, or just some of them?
Okay, so Earth would have to buy these ships from a megacorp,
or at least buy the plans.  Does access to the Imperium really 
benefit the Earth to this stunning degree?  AMAZING!

In my opinion, worlds like ours shouldn't be able to build or
buy so many ships.  How many then?  Well, perhaps a factor of
10 less: 20 ships, 8000 tons per year, or 150 tons per week.
That makes a budget of 2 billion credits, commercial and
military combined.  Pretty sad... alright, maybe 4 billion
credits.  But 125 Free Traders?  Give me a break.

Also in my opinion, low TL worlds within the Imperium should get 
more than their money's worth (say, twice or 3x) in buying ships.
But not the incredible increase from "A bunch of satellites" to
"200 fast interstellar fusion+ ships, some with cool weapons too".

Of course, with those kind of benefits, I don't see how any world
would refuse an invitation to join the 3I.  I also can see how
the 3I really could stick it to member worlds and have them 
gladly go along.  I also can see why Earth would want to take over
the 3I.  Think of the royalties!

Also of course, with those kind of benefits I can see why worlds
usually have one government: the richest one buys a bunch of
ships and more or less owns the solar system.  Think about the
kinds of adventure hooks you have there for milieu E21... the
political and corporate wrangling...

Rob
IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:08:33 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump exit points

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:17:07 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen
<rancke@diku.dk>
> "10) _Emerge From Jumpspace_. The ship emerges from jumpspace. The ship
> emerges at the limit of the gravity well (at about 100 diameters out) of
> the destination world that the navigator designated in jump preparation."
> 				_Imperial Encyclopedia_, p. 93

Yes, but does it say that because a) the author intended the jump exit
points
to move with the the planet, b) he hadn't flashed on the fact that the
jump can last a variable amount of time and the planet is in motion wrt
other objects in the universe?  Add to this the fact that you certainly
don't have to jump to 100 diameters (you can jump to deep space)
and that variability in the exit point has been mentioned elsewhere
means that you definately don't have to come right out at 100 diams
and you may see why I'm not so sure that this has been officially
decided.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #577
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 11 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 578



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka
Availability of library data (was: What is IIRC?)
Re: Milieu E21 and Space Construction: My Frustration
Re: Starbases
Re: Starbases
Re:  brown dwarfs
re: Milieu E21 and Space Construction: My Frustration
Re: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka 
Re: Starbases 
Re: Jump exit points
Re: Jump into Interstellar Void
Re: Jump exit points
JG vs IRS
Re: Jump exit points 
Re: Jump exit points
Re: Viable Populations
Re: JG vs IRS
Re: Viable Populations
Re: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka 
Completely unrelated to Traveller, music.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:14:31 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: RE: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka

Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:42:14 -0700, "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>

> But in the meantime, the Vilani had colonized thousands of worlds.  ONE of
> them HAD to have bacteria/viruses . . .

Actually, we have never seen another biosphere.  I would be
very dubious about anyone who claims that virus from that
ecosystem would have to be genetically similar enough to
infect humans.  It is, to me, quite plausible that
recontact with the ecosystem they evolved out of exposed
the Vilani to virus that they had never had to deal with
(or hadn't had to deal with in a hundred thousand years).

Bacteria are a different story, but that just resticts the
plague to a viral one.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:39:23 +0000
From: "Pearson Publishing" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Availability of library data (was: What is IIRC?)

> ObTrav: How available are general reference works?  Is library data just a
> free uplink away?  Or do PCs have to pay for info?

Michael, IMTU the players can update their ship's computer 
databases/library at any A or B starport (it comes as part of the 
general "package" so I don't charge them for it).  This gives me the 
opportunity to relay TNS information to them ("while sitting around 
reading the latest TNS downloaded from your last stop you notice that 
...").

It also alows me to remind them that a lot of background information 
(which  their characters should know even if the players don't) is 
available from the ship's computers.


 -- James Pearson
"The purpose of a referee is to present obstacles 
for players to overcome as they go about seeking 
their goals, not to constantly make trouble for them.
This is a very subtle distinction ..."

The Traveller Book, p. 12

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/4089

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:46:42 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Milieu E21 and Space Construction: My Frustration

Robert Eaglestone wrote:
> 
> I may be harping, but the best way to get suggestions and
> opinions is to bounce ideas off you-all.

'Owch!' damn lots of ideas bouncing off today, gotta get a helmet or
something ;-)


> If one HANDWAVES that the annual space construction budget for
> Earth is 0.1% of the world budget, then in the Traveller world
> we would have perhaps 20 billion credits (Imperial) to spend on
> all aspects of space: communication, transport, military, trade.
> This is new construction, not maintenance.  
> 
>           <1 shuttles
>           X pieces of a space station
>           A bunch of satellites
> 
> So, are all of my assumptions wrong, or just some of them?
> Okay, so Earth would have to buy these ships from a megacorp,
> or at least buy the plans.  Does access to the Imperium really
> benefit the Earth to this stunning degree?  AMAZING!

Well, part of the problem with your assumptions here is that there is
only a few countries on the planet that are actively engaged in such
spending, and the majority of that is in non-commercial stuff. Space is
not a viable commercial venture, other than sattelites right now, so no
one spends the money on it. No one's going to spend the money on it
until it DOES become economically viable, which means, despite the rosy
predictions of all the free-enterprise types out there, it just won't
happen unless it's done as public expenditures.

A better (IMHO) idea of what could be built is to look at more
established modes of transport and how much is built there. When you
look at prices, starships, such as free traders, are pretty much along
the lines of Boeing 767's DC-10's, or smallish freighers...how many of
_those_ are built every year? when space is a commercially viable
venture, I could easily see getting ramped up to the kinds of starship
production you mention.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:09:44 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Starbases

Legate wrote:

> > Oh please.
> 
> Then, why was the last time I talked to Bob Bludsoe, his father still
> cannot sell the stuff becuase of the IRS?

Titan games can still sell the stuff becaus they probably already
_bought_ it from their wholesale sources, it's just inventory to them.
If they're selling it on commision for him, that's another matter
entirely, but I'd really doubt it.

Also Walt _can_ sell it, it's just that the IRS will want all the money
from the sale to cover whatever tax lien they have on. The IRS, to my
knowledge, will _never_ tell someone they can't sell stuff, as the IRS
will _never_ pass up a chance to get money from people.

The distinction is between the store selling already purchased materials
and the subject (presumably) of a lien selling the materials...

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:30:01 -0600
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Starbases

At 01:44 PM 6/11/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Then, why was the last time I talked to Bob Bludsoe, his father still
>cannot sell the stuff becuase of the IRS?

Because Quincy over at Titan Games generally sells used, discontinued, or
out-of-print games, which is what the Judges Guild stuff is, and the
direction of this thread borders on the absurd.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:53:06 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  brown dwarfs

>Incidentally, is '1/3 the mass of the sun, with a diameter close to jupiter' an
>error?  That's sounds more like a white dwarf, 1/3 solar mass is enough to
>ignite as an M class star.

I don't remember the original reference, but if it does say that it's an 
error. The objects are about 1/3 the temperature of the sun - mass would be 
between 1/20 and 1/10 or so that of the sun (and currently very uncertain
because neither the age nor even the distance to most of these objects is
known.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:01:06 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Milieu E21 and Space Construction: My Frustration

>What is the annual tonnage of spacecraft constructed by Earth?
>[comment about how "real world" ship construction is much less than what one
>would expect]

One way to think about it is that the real world is building dozens or nearly
a hundred spacecraft per year - and then completely throwing away every 
one of them after a single use, because they're almost all expendable 
rockets. In addition, since production rates are low these expendables are
quite expensive - and of course since we don't have CG, fusion, or HEPlaR,
their payload fractions are tiny. 

NASA spends perhaps 10 billion per year on spaceflight-related activities.
Commerical spaceflight is probably of the same order of magnitude, as is
military, plus variopus other countries, for a total of 20-50 billion dollars
per year. 

By Milleu E21 (late TL9) this gets much better, as almost all spacecraft
become reusable with a variety of technologies (I've posted a couple of TL9
shuttle and lifter designs.) Still, getting CG from the Second Imperium is a 
enormous step forward - and in any traveller universe, importing CG or thruster
powered shuttles is almost always cost-effective for any TL7-8 world.

BRuce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:07:24 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka 

> I'll buy that the Vilani probably had been exposed to some compatible
> micro-life prior to first contact with the Terrans - from other, more
> biologically successful minor human colonies, if nowhere else.

I can accept that.  It's probably highly likely, too.  However, that would 
just mean that their medical knowledge would crank into high gear to deal with 
the lil beasties.

> The point still remains (which I understand has been "done to death",
> though that was before my time) that the Vilani and their clients had never
> been exposed to the full panoply of critters-that-thrive-on-humans, and
> (per canon) lacked the medical science to respond effectively.  This is a
> recipe for disaster of galactic proportions.

Only for the first encounter.  Then they learn to deal with nasty critters.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:28:50 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Starbases 

> At 01:44 PM 6/11/98 -0700, you wrote:
> >Then, why was the last time I talked to Bob Bludsoe, his father still
> >cannot sell the stuff becuase of the IRS?
> 
> Because Quincy over at Titan Games generally sells used, discontinued, or
> out-of-print games, which is what the Judges Guild stuff is, and the
> direction of this thread borders on the absurd.

Wait til you get back on the physics thread.  

<grin>

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:33:24 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Jump exit points

- -----Original Message-----
From: David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump exit points


>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:17:07 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen
><rancke@diku.dk>
>> "10) _Emerge From Jumpspace_. The ship emerges from jumpspace. The ship
>> emerges at the limit of the gravity well (at about 100 diameters out) of
>> the destination world that the navigator designated in jump preparation."
>> _Imperial Encyclopedia_, p. 93
>
>Yes, but does it say that because a) the author intended the jump exit
>points
>to move with the the planet, b) he hadn't flashed on the fact that the
>jump can last a variable amount of time and the planet is in motion wrt
>other objects in the universe?  Add to this the fact that you certainly
>don't have to jump to 100 diameters (you can jump to deep space)
>and that variability in the exit point has been mentioned elsewhere
>means that you definately don't have to come right out at 100 diams
>and you may see why I'm not so sure that this has been officially
>decided.
>
Why would a navigator not jump for the intercept point?  I'm reasonably
certain that the nav program has the orbital data for all jumps within its
range updated as soon as it lands.  It could also reasonably calculate from
previously KNOWN data where it needed to exit if you weren't able to get a
fresh update.

 I believe that the low end of the 168 hours would be at the near edge of
the hex and the high end would be at the far edge.  Thinking along these
lines one can assume if your jump goes according to computations you will
exit jump + or -  a few minutes of what was predicted by the computer and
you will be within the 100 D specs.  This allows for all planetary movement
so that you won't be on an intercept course with other gravity wells in that
system.

That to me is why the jump calculations take so long in the first place.
There will be the occasional anomaly that causes some minor (hopefully)
"deflection" that could throw you off.  I personally think this will be as
rare as misjumps if you have proper software, trained operators and good
maintenance.

Thom Harris

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:43:18 +0000
From: edjs@bitslayer.net
Subject: Re: Jump into Interstellar Void

> Date:          Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:17:26 +0200
> From:          Deligiannidis Nikolaos <nikolaos.deligiannidis@stud.tu-muenchen.de>
>
> Is it possible to jump into the  interstellar void between two star
> systems, and jump again into a system!

Yes - this occurs in a number of sources (such as The Traveller Adventure), 
which suggest it is safe enough for regular use.


- --
Edward Swatschek
edjs@bitslayer.net - edjs@mindlink.net - ICQ 2684960
http://home.mindlink.net/edjs/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:41:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Jump exit points

Thom Harris writes:
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: Jump exit points
> 
> 
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
> >Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:17:07 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen
> ><rancke@diku.dk>
> >> "10) _Emerge From Jumpspace_. The ship emerges from jumpspace. The ship
> >> emerges at the limit of the gravity well (at about 100 diameters out) of
> >> the destination world that the navigator designated in jump
> >> preparation." _Imperial Encyclopedia_, p. 93
> >
> >Yes, but does it say that because a) the author intended the jump exit
> >points
> >to move with the the planet, b) he hadn't flashed on the fact that the
> >jump can last a variable amount of time and the planet is in motion wrt
> >other objects in the universe?  Add to this the fact that you certainly
> >don't have to jump to 100 diameters (you can jump to deep space)
> >and that variability in the exit point has been mentioned elsewhere
> >means that you definately don't have to come right out at 100 diams
> >and you may see why I'm not so sure that this has been officially
> >decided.
> >
> Why would a navigator not jump for the intercept point?  I'm reasonably
> certain that the nav program has the orbital data for all jumps within its
> range updated as soon as it lands.  It could also reasonably calculate from
> previously KNOWN data where it needed to exit if you weren't able to get a
> fresh update.

Because the variability is + or - 24 hours, which if you match velocity with
the star would put you at +- 11 light-seconds for a planet comparable to earth
(with an orbital velocity of c. 40 km/second).  Even if you do match velocity
simple acceleration by the planet can shift your exit point by over ten
thousand kilometers (if you intersect earlier or later in its orbital path),
though this is probably safely ignorable under normal circumstances.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:19:22 EDT
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: JG vs IRS

>> From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca>
>>   AFAIK, Titan Games (www.titan-games.com) carries them in new condition,
>$4 US.
>> Also lots of other JG stuff, and used GDW product. Try their "Sale"
>section.
>>         Steven Hudson
>
>Just one little problem here, did you know that JG's stuff cannot be sold
>in the US.  Walt Bludsoe still "owes" the IRS lots & lots of cash.  So how
>are they selling JG product?

Why wouldn't they be able to. Is there a restraining order in place? Was all
JG product confiscated by the IRS? 

mind you, there is almost no market for JG stuff anywhere -- Crazy Egor used
to give it away at conventions if people bought any other Traveller product he
had.

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:40:55 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Jump exit points 

> > Why would a navigator not jump for the intercept point?  I'm reasonably
> > certain that the nav program has the orbital data for all jumps within its
> > range updated as soon as it lands.  It could also reasonably calculate from
> > previously KNOWN data where it needed to exit if you weren't able to get a
> > fresh update.
> 
> Because the variability is + or - 24 hours, which if you match velocity with
> the star would put you at +- 11 light-seconds for a planet comparable to earth
> (with an orbital velocity of c. 40 km/second).  Even if you do match velocity
> simple acceleration by the planet can shift your exit point by over ten
> thousand kilometers (if you intersect earlier or later in its orbital path),
> though this is probably safely ignorable under normal circumstances.

You aim for where the planet will be in 7 days 12 hours.  That takes care of 
your bracket.  It's canonical that an incoming jump will drop you right at 100 
diameters, no closer.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:45:04 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Jump exit points

- -----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Jump exit points


>Thom Harris writes:
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>> Subject: Re: Jump exit points
>>
>>
>> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>> >
>> >Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:17:07 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen
>> ><rancke@diku.dk>
>> >> "10) _Emerge From Jumpspace_. The ship emerges from jumpspace. The
ship
>> >> emerges at the limit of the gravity well (at about 100 diameters out)
of
>> >> the destination world that the navigator designated in jump
>> >> preparation." _Imperial Encyclopedia_, p. 93
>> >
>> >Yes, but does it say that because a) the author intended the jump exit
>> >points
>> >to move with the the planet, b) he hadn't flashed on the fact that the
>> >jump can last a variable amount of time and the planet is in motion wrt
>> >other objects in the universe?
>>
>> Why would a navigator not jump for the intercept point?  I'm reasonably
>> certain that the nav program has the orbital data for all jumps within
its
>> range updated as soon as it lands.  It could also reasonably calculate
from
>> previously KNOWN data where it needed to exit if you weren't able to get
a
>> fresh update.

>
>Because the variability is + or - 24 hours, which if you match velocity
with
>the star would put you at +- 11 light-seconds for a planet comparable to
earth
>(with an orbital velocity of c. 40 km/second).  Even if you do match
velocity
>simple acceleration by the planet can shift your exit point by over ten
>thousand kilometers (if you intersect earlier or later in its orbital
path),
>though this is probably safely ignorable under normal circumstances.

>
You seem to have ignored the other two paragraphs that went with this
post.....

Once you exit J space you fall back under Newtonian laws. The plus or minus
24 hours could (and I believe does) exist to reflect the distance from one
side of a hex to the other.  The navigator WOULD calculate the location of
your destination down to the second and bring you out of jump at the point
where it would be on an intercept course moving at the exact speed it had
attained when it entered jump.  Whether it takes 144 hours or 182  or more
probably somewhere in between depends on where the jump exit point is
calculated to be.  The program would run the orbits of all gravity wells in
the new system  looking for the optimum exit point based on your present
heading and speed.  I believe that once committed it would give a short
countdown (5-10 secs) to allow for it to include its exact present location
so that it WILL know to the second when it will need to exit jump space.

This to me is the only way it makes any sense to have the 48 hour deviation
in jump and it still be considered SAFE travel.  It is also the best reason
to have TRAINED operators flying the craft and making minor adjustments.
For example, gross weight is adjusted as the ship burns off hydrogen, your
spare ship isn't in its hooks this jump,  you only have to compensate one
turret instead of your normal two, damage in the jump screen and ????  There
are numerous other reasons to have highly trained navigators on ships with
big computers and good engineering monitoring systems plus the best software
you can lay your hands on.

It has been mentioned in several places that quick jump calculations get you
into trouble and in the recent Traveller novel a poorly arranged departure
kept them in system an extra 24 hours while they were maneuvering away from
all the gravity wells.  Low level computers,  poorly trained navigators, bad
LH, and ill maintained drives all lead to long in system hauls because you
aren't coming out where the computer calculated you would.

I do want to emphasize the concept of proper planning and good calculations
should lead to you being where you're supposed to be at the exact time
you're supposed to be there and it DON'T matter if it took 144 or 182
hours.  The time equates to which side of the hex or where in the hex you
exit.

THIS IS MY OPINION!

Thom Harris

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:42:36 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Viable Populations

Date sent:      	Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:50:32 -0600
From:           	Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>

> In fact, you could get by with even fewer if you had to, you simply run the
> risk of dying out from inbreeding.  I've seen figures to suggest that a
> species can come back from a single generation as small as 4 (totally
> unrelated) members, if it then builds back up to N > 500 as rapidly as
> possible.  You lose about 25% of genetic variability in the process.

The Chatam Islands Robin was brought back from a population of 1 female and 
3 males

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++++ su+ ge

************************************************************
Of course its safe, I made it myself
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:53:04 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: JG vs IRS

- -----Original Message-----
Subject: JG vs IRS


>>> From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca>
>>>   AFAIK, Titan Games (www.titan-games.com) carries them in new condition,
>>$4 US.
>>> Also lots of other JG stuff, and used GDW product. Try their "Sale" section.
>>>         Steven Hudson
>>
>>Just one little problem here, did you know that JG's stuff cannot be sold
>>in the US.  Walt Bludsoe still "owes" the IRS lots & lots of cash.  So how
>>are they selling JG product?
>
>Why wouldn't they be able to. Is there a restraining order in place? Was all
>JG product confiscated by the IRS?
>
>mind you, there is almost no market for JG stuff anywhere -- Crazy Egor used
>to give it away at conventions if people bought any other Traveller product he
>had.
>
>Loren Wiseman
>
On top of that it isn't JG that's selling the stuff.  This stuff was
previously sold by JG and has been picked up thru (I'm sure) legitimate
means by Titan Games.  Quincey Koziol (sp?) buys bulk items that he then
resells.  He apparently buys these from other dealers and some times
individual pieces from a gamer/collector/angry mom which he then resells for
profit.  JG isn't selling anything anymore.  It's the same as going in and
buying  a GDW or Digest Group product that is no longer in print.  NO ONE
said he got the stuff from JG, just that it was originally produced by JG.

Thom Harris

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:19:44 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Viable Populations

At 02:50 PM 11/06/98 -0600, Christopher Thrash wrote:

>In fact, you could get by with even fewer if you had to, you simply run the
>risk of dying out from inbreeding.  I've seen figures to suggest that a
>species can come back from a single generation as small as 4 (totally
>unrelated) members, if it then builds back up to N > 500 as rapidly as
>possible.  You lose about 25% of genetic variability in the process.

As an aside on genetic variability - I was chatting to a veterinarian
friend a few months back, who mentioned that at some stage in the past
cheetahs were almost entirely wiped out, and they are all very closely
related as a result. In fact apparently you can transplant organ from one
cheetah to another without bothering to check for compatibility.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:38:04 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka 

To:             	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject:        	Re: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka 
From:           	"Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Date sent:      	Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:07:24 -0400
Send reply to:  	traveller@MPGN.COM

> > I'll buy that the Vilani probably had been exposed to some compatible
> > micro-life prior to first contact with the Terrans - from other, more
> > biologically successful minor human colonies, if nowhere else.

> I can accept that.  It's probably highly likely, too.  However, that would 
> just mean that their medical knowledge would crank into high gear to deal with 
> the lil beasties.

> > The point still remains (which I understand has been "done to death",
> > though that was before my time) that the Vilani and their clients had never
> > been exposed to the full panoply of critters-that-thrive-on-humans, and
> > (per canon) lacked the medical science to respond effectively.  This is a
> > recipe for disaster of galactic proportions.

> Only for the first encounter.  Then they learn to deal with nasty critters.

Since it was my work that prompted the revival of this, I guess I should 
comment.

Why are the Vilani so vulnerable to Terran diseases during the RoM?

1. Weakened immune response system. The Vilani have spent 300,000 years 
in what is basically a sterile environment. During all that time there was nothing 
on Vland likely to kick their immune response into action. The upshot of this is 
that random genetic mutation will slowly weaken their immune response 
system.

2. No exposure to viruses. Given our knowledge to date, it is rather beyond 
belief that any alien ecosystem will throw up a virus which can infect a human 
(or any other terrestrial life for that matter). Therefore it is almost certain that 
the Vilani do not know of viruses (or if they have encountered them in veterinary 
science they believe that they can't infect humans) and almost certainly have 
not developed vaccinations or anything like antiviral drugs (aside- as at 1998 we 
here on Earth have no drug which can be classed as an antiviral agent either).

3. General poor quality of biomedical tech. It is established canon that the 
Vilani were very very weak in this area (even if it were not, everything else 
points at this). The Terrans have developed their advanced biomed technology 
because it was a day to day matter of life and death for them (eg if they didn't 
they died very quickly). Every day of a Terran's life he or she is assualted by 
disease organisms; no matter how many hostile microbes the Vilani have 
encountered since leaving Vland it won't even amount to 1/10,000th of the 
threat the Terrans have faced. It is not beyond belief that the Vilani response to 
disease has not progressed beyond quarantine, if they have any understanding 
of disease it will be very basic. Any alien species is unlikely to yeild much 
knowledge due to incompatable biochemistry and the human minor races have 
the same problems as the Vilani (though to a lesser degree) and anyway none 
of these races had achieved better than TL 8 (probably much less).

4. Lack of medical resources. The Vilani will have medical specialists, probably 
good ones. But they will be in areas such as trauma care, midwifery, oncology, 
radiation medicine, dietary care etc. not the treatment of disease. Thus when 
the PoD arrives, the Vilani medical staff are floundering, within days the 
hosptials are bulging at the seams and social cohesion is breaking down.

5. Social habits. The Vilani live in communially in close contact with large 
numbers of their peers. These make the spread of disease much easier and 
effective quarantine much harder.

Remeber its taken us several thousands of years to learn to deal with these lil' 
critters, there is no reason to suspect the Vilani would do so very much faster.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++++ su+ ge

************************************************************
Of course its safe, I made it myself
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:39:17 +1200
From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music.

I was just sitting here contemplating my navel when it struck me, are
Traveller fanatics similar? As an idea I came across music as an analogy to
feeling. I was just wondering if you guys had a similar mindset to mine,
e-mail me privately if you don't want to pollute the list. Personally I
don't give a shug (remember Ace Trucking Company?) either way.

I like,
NOFX
nomeansno
the Vandals
Iron Maiden
Nirvana
Gene Pitney

Mr.Death@xtra.co.nz
Cheers,
 Anson

I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather,
not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #578
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, June 12 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 579



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Amber Zones
Re: Traveller Domain names
Re: Viable Populations
Corsair origins (again)
Re: Pirates take the whole ship?
Re: Realistic approaches to prevention
Re: JG vs IRS
Amber Zones
Re: Amber Zones
RE: Amber Zones
Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music.
Re: Milieu E21 and Space Construction: My Frustration
Re: What is IIRC?
Re: *New* technology for the uninformed
Re: Selling a starship
Another step up the TL ladder...
MegaTraveller Errata
Brown Dwarf Discovery
Re: Realistic Pirate Expenses [longish]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:49:49 +1200
From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Amber Zones

I was just reading in the MT Ref's manual about amber zones, what are the
criteria for making a world an amber zone?

War? I don't think so, unless it's global or nuclear (in which case it'll be
over in a couple of hours). Look at earth today, we have numerous wars going
on but it's still safe to visit most countries.

Disease? Remember Ebola? It didn't make the whole planet un-safe, just a
portion of it dangerous. I wonder if AIDS could be considered lethal enough
to stop visitors, it's certainly lethal and communicable...

Famine? Hell this would make the planet ripe for trade, just bring em food
and they'll love you.

Pestilence? Anything pestile enough to make an amber zone would have chewed
the colonists long ago.

Anyone else got any ideas?

Cheers,
 Anson

I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather,
not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:06:13 -0700
From: Richard Hough <richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Domain names

>vargr.com
>Jeff Lewis (VARGR-DOM)

Mr. Lewis is a player in my campaign and an occasional lurker on the list.

And no, he plays a human.
- --
Richard Hough
richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:02:41 +1200
From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Viable Populations

>>In fact, you could get by with even fewer if you had to, you simply run
the
>>risk of dying out from inbreeding.  I've seen figures to suggest that a
>>species can come back from a single generation as small as 4 (totally
>>unrelated) members, if it then builds back up to N > 500 as rapidly as
>>possible.  You lose about 25% of genetic variability in the process.
>
>As an aside on genetic variability - I was chatting to a veterinarian
>friend a few months back, who mentioned that at some stage in the past
>cheetahs were almost entirely wiped out, and they are all very closely
>related as a result. In fact apparently you can transplant organ from one
>cheetah to another without bothering to check for compatibility.
>

I'm probably going to get killed for this but,

In a book I read a while back, Dangerous Visions I think it was, there was a
story about a planet where incest was the norm. They mentioned something
about breeding cattle and that you don't get genetic mutations from breeding
related cattle, in fact if there's a preferred trait then you breed them
together to get the desired trait in the offspring.
Any Ranchers out there who can set me right?

Cheers,
 Anson

I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather,
not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:08:22 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Corsair origins (again)

Flash of illumination while taking a walk this afternoon...

The Canonical CT 400dtn Corsair is not what someone (say, a PC) 
would design as a frontier pirate/commerce raider/Armed Merchant.
I don't even think it was purpose built, as such, for anything...it's
an accumulation of rebuilds and refits over a long and varied
service life.

Reasons:

1) Unstreamlined. Patrol Cruisers, SDB's, Sub Merchants, so many
ships in this size class are streamlined. Not even a ship's boat to
get dirtside with. Why, especially in a frontier area?

2) 3 Turrets. Why not four? You're a combat vessel, why not get
that 33% boost in firepower? Or at least a hardpoint for it?

3) Low berths. Twice as many as you have crew staterooms.
What is this, an interstellar slumber party?

Then it came to me, especially from reason #2...the Corsair we
know and love didn't start out life as a Corsair, or even as a
400dtn vessel. At the beginning of it's operational life, lost at
the front of the "lineage and paperwork" of "uncertain origin",
lies a streamlined, 3-turret, medium performance 300dtn
patrol/scout vessel.

Probably built in the shipyards of a TL12ish Spinward Marches planet
before the Imperial annexation, this class of vessel may have served
patrol and exploration duty for an independent planet or small
interstellar state. They were eventually declared obsolete in this role,
and other uses were found for them. Some were eventually converted
to a cargo-carrying role by the simple expedient of welding a 100-ton
cargo bay onto the hull - wrecking it's streamlining, and explaining why
the ship only has 3 turrets - it's really a 300dtn hull with a permanent
cargo pod on it. The external capture bay seems limited to 100dtns, 
so this seems to work a few ways. The low berths are enough to
hold an entire crew, even if the staterooms were double-occupied - 
insurance against a misjump, perhaps, and useful if this patrol/scout
vessel were pressed into a medical role. I estimated the fuel for
our hypothetical 300dtn ship as about enough for a jump-3, or
(if local TL didn't support Jump-3 tech) a Jump-2 and Jump-1's worth
of misjump insurance.

The ships wore out in lots of ways, and were sold off to other interests - 
a popular class of ship in it's day, they hit the used ship market in
a varied state of wear and random levels of demilitarization.

It's been a long time since the Corsair was a sleek, nimble, streamlined
patrol ship. Her military drives have long since worn out without 
military parts and maintenance, they've been replaced with salvaged
or used civilian drives - they fit poorly in her engineering spaces,
some assemblies perhaps even protruding from the hull. Her bow 
to her ventral edge is a malformed, snaggletoothed mess, the bulge 
of a clamshell-doored cargo bay ruining her lines but giving her a
rough, barbaric look. She's old and grey, but a series of owners - 
everything from scouts to traders to starmercs - have done their best
to keep her running, even keep parts of her current. Right now she's
a Pirate...and she may soon meet her end as such.

Just a play on the idea that a superdense/Crystaliron hull is expensive,
and probably very durable. I can't see why you wouldn't have ships
refitted and remodelled from bygone days still in service, though they
make your 40-year old rustbucket free trader look like new by
comparison. There's no good reason, in a mature and cosmopolitan
interstellar state, for every trade ship to be a standard Free, Far,
or Fat Trader, even if that's been 90% of the new merchant builds
for the past half-century or more. 

"Wow, you just paid off your Free Trader? Cool, let me buy you a
drink. My bank payment? Oh, Great-Great-Grandma paid that off
long before I was born...I am working on that loan I took out for a
replacement jump drive, though..."


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:17:39 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Pirates take the whole ship?

>From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
>Subject: Re: Pirates take the whole ship?
...
>>Can you think of an enforcement scheme that will 1) allow the authorities
>>to distinguish between two sets of pirates and 2) be substantially
>>cheaper if they do concentrate on just one set?
>
>There is one - spend a lot of time preventing hot ships from being sold,
>and track them.  They are expensive enough and few enough that
>concentrating on those who steal ships could be pretty efficient./...

  This is a good point, and also addresses the threat of PC's skipping
with their ships - which can really screw the GM's plans to run a game
in a certain area of space. 

  A simple way to handle this is to assume that Imperial law specifies
that ownership of a stolen ship reverts to the last legal owner of
record. This ensures that most potential purchasers will be very careful
in buying, and that they (or the bank holding the mortgage with the ship
as collateral) will do everything possible to ensure same, not the least
of which being waiting long enough for confirmation of the ships status
to arrive.

  The last depends on the size and communications of a region, but a ship
will likely only have travelled a modest distance from its' owner or an
empowered agent of same, and communications need not be to such, but only
to a point within the commo radius from a possible ship theft.

...
>noticeable, but if you have religious objections to the minimal enforcement
...
  Ian! A fellow traveller, perhaps? :>

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:17:53 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Realistic approaches to prevention

>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>Subject: Re: Realistic approaches to prevention
...
>Well, that would depend on several assumptions. For instance, if the pirate
>is in a position to sell his ship, his income as a pirate would have to be
>bigger than the income he could get from just selling the ship and living
>off the interest. That's why I've repeatedly challenged any piracy
>proponent to come up with a set of reasonable ground assumptions and
>show me how a pirate could make a living.

  Does that include my theoretical case of the one-off "opportunist"
committing an act of piracy? The issue arises because that model
disavows piracy as a long term course for the actor in question.

  In any case, I'll try to get around to refurbishing my old idea of
the in-system traffic predator.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:11:13 -0700
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: JG vs IRS

> From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
> >>   AFAIK, Titan Games (www.titan-games.com) carries them in new condition,
> >$4 US.
> >> Also lots of other JG stuff, and used GDW product. Try their "Sale" section.
> >>         Steven Hudson
> >
> >Just one little problem here, did you know that JG's stuff cannot be sold
> >in the US.  Walt Bludsoe still "owes" the IRS lots & lots of cash.  So how
> >are they selling JG product?
> 
> Why wouldn't they be able to. Is there a restraining order in place? Was all
> JG product confiscated by the IRS? 

Yes, & not all of it.

> mind you, there is almost no market for JG stuff anywhere -- Crazy Egor used
> to give it away at conventions if people bought any other Traveller product he
> had.

This is true.

> Loren Wiseman

Legate, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:42:07 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Amber Zones

Anson Betts was asking about Amber Zones:

An Amber Zone is a travel classification by the Travellers' Aid Society,
intended to warn their members to use added caution when venturing
to that system. Some common reasons:

1) Xenophobia: The natives tend to react in a hostile fashion to those
from other planets or cultures. You may be a target for assault, robbery,
or murder, so you may want to stay in the extra-territorial starport
area, or only venture forth in large groups.

2) War scare: This planet might be a balkanized one on the brink of
a massive world war. Or it might be the planet "everyone knows"
will be the first one the evil Sword Worlders invade when they stop
saber-rattling and mobilize - next week for sure, if not soon after, that's
what I heard, yup...
An Amber Zone, IIRC, was posted for much of the Spinward
Marches in the immediate aftermath of the Fifth Frontier War
as things settled down again - this was temporary.

3) Civil Disorder: Perhaps a corrupt or tyrannical regime is being
nice to tourists, but oppressing the masses. The masses might
respond with terrorist attacks on tourists, frequent riots that
Travellers might get caught up in, that kind of thing. If the regime
cracks down harder, this can lead to another kind of Amber Zone:

4) Dangerous Government: Perhaps the Grand Leader is a loon.
Or his customs inspectors have a reputation for ripping every ship
down to the hull plates during "routine" inspections, and sending
you to the salt mines for a suspicious looking breath mint.
You can't leave the starport without a police escort to "guard"
(i.e, keep an eye on) you. Byzantine laws make it a serious threat
to your freedom to take a walk down a street, if the group of
jackbooted police thugs you run into are in the mood.
At least one Spinward Marches non-Imperial world (Ruie, Regina 0209)
is Amber Zoned simply because it's not Imperial - perhaps neither
the government nor the people like Imperials much.

5) Crime: Go to this planet, and organleggers will sneak into your
hotel room and steal your high-grade offworld kidneys. Organized
crime will steal your ship blind the minute you hit downport. Every
other person you meet tries to steal your wallet. Trust no one here.

6) Environment: The natives know how to stay alive here, you don't.
The weather, the wildlife, something here is unusually dangerous.

btw - for more fun, use several of the above at once...jackbooted
police thugs rule the day, criminal gangs run the night, and another
country is massing troops at the border...

Amber Zone warnings tell you that it is dangerous to go to this world,
so you should take precautions. Knowing what the danger is should
be half the battle. Travellers will go to Amber Zones, as the danger can
drastically increase the profits...how much will passengers pay
our Free Trader captain to get off a world that's about to go to war?

Red Zones are an advisory not to travel to the area at all. I believe
the Zhodani consulate is red-zoned to Imperial citizens, and most
of the Spinward Marches were red-zoned (IIRC) during the
Fifth Frontier War. A Red Zone classification will be applied to
a world under interdiction, a world it is illegal to go to - the Travellers'
Aid Society strongly recommends you not go there, as an Imperial
patrol ship will board you and put you in jail. Most long-term Red Zones
will be for interdicted planets, so it might seem to the average
citizen that a Red Zone is a government classification, and they might
use the word as a synonym for "Interdicted" - though it is inaccurate.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:46:13 +0000
From: edjs@bitslayer.net
Subject: Re: Amber Zones

> From:          "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
> Date:          Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:49:49 +1200
>
> I was just reading in the MT Ref's manual about amber zones, what are the
> criteria for making a world an amber zone?

Anything that translates into a significantly greater danger to travellers than 
is the norm.

War/insurrection (it need not be global to rate an Amber Zone).
Repressive governments and/or very high law levels.
Lawlessness (not necessarily the same as Law-0)
Less virulent diseases (such as STDs - diseases that require a certain behavior 
   to catch, rather than simple contact).
A xenophobic population.

Personally, I'd place designate 20th-century Terra an Amber Zone.  We have our 
quota of all of the above.  An Amber zone lets the traveller know he should 
find out why the Amebr zone, before he passes out through the starport gates. 


- --
Edward Swatschek
edjs@bitslayer.net - edjs@mindlink.net - ICQ 2684960
http://home.mindlink.net/edjs/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:52:57 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Amber Zones

The important thing to realize about Amber and Red Zones is that they are 
designated by the TAS, not the Imperium.  Since the TAS is literally, a 
Traveller's Aid Society, anything that poses a significant danger to 
travellers (members or otherwise) will draw their attention (and result in 
a downgrading of the travel code).

douglas


- ----------
From: 	Anson Betts[SMTP:Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz]
Sent: 	Thursday, June 11, 1998 7:49 PM
To: 	Traveller List
Subject: 	Amber Zones

I was just reading in the MT Ref's manual about amber zones, what are the
criteria for making a world an amber zone?

War? I don't think so, unless it's global or nuclear (in which case it'll 
be
over in a couple of hours). Look at earth today, we have numerous wars 
going
on but it's still safe to visit most countries.

Disease? Remember Ebola? It didn't make the whole planet un-safe, just a
portion of it dangerous. I wonder if AIDS could be considered lethal enough
to stop visitors, it's certainly lethal and communicable...

Famine? Hell this would make the planet ripe for trade, just bring em food
and they'll love you.

Pestilence? Anything pestile enough to make an amber zone would have chewed
the colonists long ago.

Anyone else got any ideas?

Cheers,
 Anson

I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather,
not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 17:52:53 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music.

At 02:39 PM 12/06/98 +1200, Anson Betts wrote:
>I was just sitting here contemplating my navel when it struck me, are
>Traveller fanatics similar? As an idea I came across music as an analogy to
>feeling. I was just wondering if you guys had a similar mindset to mine,
>e-mail me privately if you don't want to pollute the list. Personally I
>don't give a shug (remember Ace Trucking Company?) either way.
>
>I like,
>NOFX
>nomeansno
>the Vandals
>Iron Maiden
>Nirvana
>Gene Pitney

Guess not:
Dire Straits
Fleetwood Mac
Some Pink Floyd
David Bowie
Stevie Nix
Clancy Brothers
Pogues
Split Enz
Crowded House


- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:02:14 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Milieu E21 and Space Construction: My Frustration

>What is the annual tonnage of spacecraft constructed by Earth?
>And what percentage of her world budget does she pay to build
>it and put it in place?
...
>But the Earth manages to build, per year:
>
>	  <1 shuttles
>	  X pieces of a space station
>	  A bunch of satellites
>
>So, are all of my assumptions wrong, or just some of them?

One only, imho.  You are assuming that we have the same perceived sense of
the value of space vessels as a world in the Traveller universe.

Earth, right now, gets very little benefit from space vessels.  You can bet
dollars to donuts that if there was a clear strategic advantage to earth
armed forces having asteroid bases, or clear monetary benefits to Microsoft
Space Station, we would have them.  Right now, our pittance of probes and
sattelites come from the most technically advanced nations on earth, and
are so far in advance of what the other nations produce that there is not a
lot of pressure to produce more.

In the TU, it is very clear what the benefits are, and every world has a
history of why the days of star travel were the good old days, and how the
worlds with space vessels are making cash hand over fist.  Further, in the
TU, a TL 8.7 world like us is clearly behind, not the leader, and so feels
a lot of pressure.

Scott

- -------
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu.  http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz/
"You die, she dies, EVERYbody dies" - Heavy Metal
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment results" -
Calvin Coolidge, attrib. by Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:55:42 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: What is IIRC?

eldwyn@juno.com wrote:
> 
> Excuse my lack of knowledge, I usually pick up on these abbreviations
> easily, but what does *IIRC* stand for. I see that every once in a while
> and can't tell what it means.

"If I Recall Correctly*"

Cheers,
Darren

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 04:18:34 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: *New* technology for the uninformed

eldwyn@juno.com wrote:

> On TV the other day I saw a cop stop a suspect who was selling drugs, but
> the guy kept denying everything. Well, the cop had a little toy he just
> bought for his kid: a tiny keychain with buttons that made synthezied
> sci-fi sounds like ray-guns, ufos, etc. The officer took the toy and
> *scanned* the dealer with it the same way McCoy used his medical device
> in StarTrek.
>
> The *scanner* confirmed that the guy had drugs on him, and he then
> confessed and was taken in. Some people just don't know what may or may
> not be real on a new world (new to them) and can be easily taken in. I
> suspect that this  becomes increasingly possible when dealing across
> different TLs and cultures.

Just a quick note, this is completely legal in the US.
Best to ask, am I under arrest?  If yes, say nothing.  Ask for lawyer.
If no, walk, but do not run, away.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:46:25 -0600
From: chet-el@juno.com (Chester L Cox)
Subject: Re: Selling a starship

The following exchange:

>>So the question is, if you weren't interested in the trader's life,
could
>>you turn around and sell it [a big honking ship  --Chet] 
>> for the bargain price of MCr 28 and retire on
>>the extra few million credits? 
>
>Yep. And if I was the Referee I'd tell you: "OK, your character retires in
>comfort. Give me the character sheet, I'll put it in with my other NPCs.
>Now please roll a new character that will fit into the campaign I've
>designed."

                                                          reminded me
that one of my characters did exactly this during character generation. 
Our referee then promptly made this character the target of a kidnapping
attempt, which ended with that character charged with murder.  A
fast-thinking referee is the bane of a successful character generation,
but makes for a fun weekend long game.


*jeep!
- --Chet

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:09:19 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Another step up the TL ladder...

(The following is an excerpt from an abc.com news posting)

W A S H I N G T O N,   June 11 - A supercomputer using
factory-reject chips and having more than 220,000 defects,
each deadly enough to disable any other machine, could
be the forerunner of "chemical computers" that are faster,
cheaper and more powerful, researchers said today. 
     The Teramac computer could offer engineers a way to
build computers chemically-something necessary for
innovation in the field to continue, they said in a report
published in the journal Science.
<snip>
     Teramac's defect tolerance made the researchers
realize they could theoretically build smaller computers
using chemistry. 
     "Chemistry allows you to build very small things on an
atomic scale even if they aren't perfect," Kuekes said in a
telephone interview. "We believe we can build smaller-sized
computer circuits using chemical reactions."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 9:14:15 CDT
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: MegaTraveller Errata

Ok - is there a website where the *COMPLETE* set of MegaTraveller errata
is stored?


DonM.
- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:15:24 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Brown Dwarf Discovery

(And for you stellar fans...)

Brown Dwarfs Get Some Respect 

S A N   D I E G O,   June 9 - The most
common stars may be the ones that
failed. 
     Today at a meeting of the American
Astronomical Society, astronomers
announced they have uncovered 20 dim,
cool dwarf stars in a small slice of our
galactic backyard, within 100 light-years of
Earth. 
     Extrapolating the findings over the whole
galaxy shows "they are the most populous
type of object in the Milky Way." says J.
Davy Kirkpatrick of the California Institute
of Technology, who heads the project. 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 07:45:38 PDT
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Realistic Pirate Expenses [longish]

>Subject: Realistic Pirate Expenses

I don't like that subject name.  I'm not sure any of this is realistic.  
:-)

>
>Greg Smith writes:
>>[Thus sayeth Hans]:
>>>We didn't miss that. The question becomes what is an acceptable 
>>>low. We mentioned that ships are very expensive. You then suggested 
>>>that maybe pirates only stole the cargo. Only trouble with that is 
>>>that it seems extremely unlikely that any pirate could steal enough 
>>>cargoes to pays his expenses.
>> 
>>What would be the expenses that a pirate (or a band of pirates) 
>>would reasonably have?
>
>Well, that would depend on several assumptions. For instance, if the 
>pirate is in a position to sell his ship, his income as a pirate >would 
have to be bigger than the income he could get from just >selling the 
ship and living off the interest. That's why I've >repeatedly challenged 
any piracy proponent to come up with a set of >reasonable ground 
assumptions and show me how a pirate could make a >living.
> 

I don't believe the ships would be readily saleable.  Perhaps to another 
pirate, or a member of the band, but not probably on the open market, 
without a great discount.  

I think your assumption is that he's only in it for the money, and that 
if he could sell his ship for a good profit, then he could enjoy life.  
IMO, his drive is more than money.  Greed, a sense of machismo, the 
thrill of the chase, the hunt, the kill, the beating of the system.  
These all enter into the equation.  A pirate would be bored, bored, 
bored if he just sold his ship and lived on the proceeds.  I think he 
would turn pirate again after a while, maybe hijacking a ship and 
starting again.... 

>>Ship Payments:  Even though corsairs are manufactured, I don't think
>>there would be many pirates making payments...  :->
>
>So why did the manufacturer build the ship in the first place? 

He built it because someone ordered it.  When you go to purchase a new 
ship, you give the downpayment, and then pick your ship up in months. I 
don't think just go to your local starship dealer and get a ship...

>The very fact that he did implies that he expected to sell it, which 
>means that he expected that someone would believe that he could make >a 
living with it. The buyer may have to pay the full cost up front, >but 
that simply transfers the problem from the bank to the owner.

Here I disagree with the OTU (I think).  These ships are "standard" 
ships per LBB2.  I think they can be built with standard components, but 
would be by no means standard for a shipyard to build.  In fact, I would 
think that the shipyard that built these would be one of the friendly 
havens for pirates (double sets of books, bribery, forgery, all the 
standard things) and probably a place where the annual maintenance could 
be done without too many questions :-)

>
>>Life Support:  Only used when ship is in use.
>
>And how do you propose that the pirates catch anything if the don't 
>use the ship?
>

Granted.  But I'm meaning that you wouldn't pay life support if you are 
living on a planet and only go catch a ship/cargo when you get bored or 
when you need some cash or cash equivalents...

>
>>Maintenance:  Time based?  Usage based?  Regular "merchant" costs?
>
>Usage based. Merchant costs if the pirates have a secure haven. 
>Inflated costs if they have to hide from the authorities. (Btw. I >said 
in an earlier post that for economic (not legal) purposes >pirates and 
privateers were much the same, but I was wrong there. >Privateers can 
get a better price on what they capture and they pay >less inflated 
costs.)  

A merchant is always using his ship, needs to to keep making his 
payments.  He's making jumps at the rate of 2 per month or so...  A 
pirate living on a planet, OTOH, and only making sorties when he needs 
to would have periods of less usage, then periods of intense usage... So 
I would think that his costs would vary.  During forays of piracy, he 
would use merchant costs, higher if he were running and needed 
"specialty work without questions asked".

>
>>Living Expenses:  What standard of living?
>
>CT life support costs are absolute. If pirates can get along with 
>lower life support costs then PCs ought to be allowed to as well.
>

Life support and living expenses are different.  A PC could avoid all 
"life support" costs just by not having a ship to live on.  I'm meaning 
what is his standard of living?  Gold drinking mugs?  Lots of retainers 
demanding pay?  Servants?  High tech habits that cost lots of credits?  
Or simple life that isn't very expensive.  I would think the 
"Bluebeards" of the Spinward Main would live high on the hog and 
therefore have higher expenses than your standard PC.  Someone being 
very austere might not have so high a standard of living...  BTW, what 
does it run the average "citizen" to live?  Hans, I know you've done 
those figures before, and you've sent them to me, but I can't remember 
where I put them right now.

>>Intelligence Gathering:
>>Bribery:
>
>If you can come up with a scheme that will make intelligence >gathering 
useful, sure.
> 

These were just suggestions.  You may have a mole in the piracy 
suppression force of a system...  That would be expensive, but may prove 
profitable if you know when and where the forces are.  Much like the 
drug runners coming into the southern parts of the US.  They love 
knowing where the Coast Guard is and where the radars are set...  Then 
they go elsewhere...

I don't know if there is a really good scheme, but I'll think about it.  
If your pirate is just a "pirate of opportunity", then there won't be an 
intelligence network.  If your pirate has done this for a while, and he 
is the exception to the rule (you know, the successful pirate that is 
required to make this discussion relevent) then he might have one...

>>What I'm asking, and maybe it was discussed some time ago, but how 
>>much would it take to keep a Pirate band going?
>
>Tell me your assumptions and I'll make a stab at working out >something 
reasonable.
>

Well, some of my assumptions interwoven in the above.  Planet based, for 
sure.  Secure, mostly.  No mortgage on the ship.

Greg Smith
The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #579
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, June 12 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 580



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music.
Re: Viable Populations
MT Errata
Traveller and Musical Tastes
New FF&S2 spreadsheet (v2.5)
To: Bruce Macintosh
Re: Milieu E21 and Space Construction: My Frustration
Drug Drug
Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music.
Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music.
Re: Amber Zones
Re: Amber Zones
Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music.
Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music. 
Re: Traveller and Musical Tastes 
Re: Traveller and Musical Tastes 
Re: Amber Zones
Re: Selling a starship
Re: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka
How diseases work (was Re: Disease and the fall...)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 07:51:25 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music.

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> At 02:39 PM 12/06/98 +1200, Anson Betts wrote:

> >I like,
> >NOFX
> >nomeansno
> >the Vandals
> >Iron Maiden
> >Nirvana
> >Gene Pitney
> 
> Guess not:
> Dire Straits
> Fleetwood Mac
> Some Pink Floyd
> David Bowie
> Stevie Nix
> Clancy Brothers
> Pogues
> Split Enz
> Crowded House

Nope:

Jimmy Buffet
Grateful Dead
Most Pink Floyd
Annie Lennox
Dire Straits
.
.
.

ok, ok there's some overlap...

at a wild-ass guess I'll bet our musical tastes are far more correlated with
our ages.

Though Pink Floyd's Echoes is still one of the _best_ damn ways to make your
players paranoid, playing in the background...;-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 08:07:54 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Viable Populations

Anson Betts wrote:

> I'm probably going to get killed for this but,
> 
> In a book I read a while back, Dangerous Visions I think it was, there was a
> story about a planet where incest was the norm. They mentioned something
> about breeding cattle and that you don't get genetic mutations from breeding
> related cattle, in fact if there's a preferred trait then you breed them
> together to get the desired trait in the offspring.

Actually, with cattle lines you still avoid direct mother/son father/daughter
xbreeds, mostly because you're trying to select for specific traits, and often
those traits are present in different individuals.

Humans have outbred so long, in so many diverse poulations, that we have
_lots_ of recessives, that frequency is markedly lower in most domesticated
animals because we have culled the population over the millenia.

Still you see the problems all the time. Hip displasia in dogs is a
genetically linked trait in most breeds, and should be relatively easy to get
rid of. In some breeds and breeding lines they have. It persists in the
general population, though because of breeders who don't bother, because they
can make money at it. After all a 'papered' GSD or Rottweiler can sell for big
bucks...why should the breeder care that the dog will have to be put down in
six years because it can't walk anymore and is in constant pain...grrrrrrrr...
(down, bruce...down!)

So for a markedly inbred population to exist you have to pretty ruthlessly
cull, and then, it's still only by chance that you would get a stable line.
remember for every inbred strain of animal we have today there are probably
thousands more that didn't make it.

> I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather,
> not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car.

You get the Digital Groan prize for sickest .sig seen this week. Congratulations!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:10:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rob Dean <robdean@access.digex.net>
Subject: MT Errata

> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 9:14:15 CDT
> From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
> Subject: MegaTraveller Errata
> 
> Ok - is there a website where the *COMPLETE* set of MegaTraveller errata
> is stored?
> 
> DonM.

The _official_ errata used to be on the University of Western Ontario
site, but the site didn't let me in the day before yesterday when I went
to look to see if it was still there (after reading a discussion here.)

However, at least in the vehicle design sections, that wasn't all there
was, since some of the errata didn't help, and some things were still
clearly wrong by comparison with Striker (version 1). There was also
a discussion of the design sequences in Traveller's Digest #14, which
had more errata.

Rob's Rule of thumb--check Striker and Book 6 Scouts, and if that doesn't
help, make it up...

Rob Dean
robdean@access.digex.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:18:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rob Dean <robdean@access.digex.net>
Subject: Traveller and Musical Tastes

Well, I don't think that musical tastes and interest in Traveller would
be likely to have much correspondence.

Most of my music collection consists of early music (medieval, renaissance,
and baroque). I skip almost all of the 19th century, and my 20th century
collection is small, and consists of a few neo-classical composers (e.g.,
Prokofiev), some folk singers, Scottish bagpipes, Canadian fiddle music,
and Huun Huur Tu (Tuvan throat singers.)  I've been known to inflict things
like Tibetan temple music on players as the "popular music" of whatever
planet they're barhopping on...

Rob Dean
robdean@access.digex.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:32:27 -0500
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: New FF&S2 spreadsheet (v2.5)

Due to some bugs found and a request, there is yet another version of my
FF&S spreadsheet.

Features added/bugs fixed include:
1. ROF and Peak ROF capped at 800 to conform with the combat rules.
2. Peak ROF power requirement changed from 1 minute to 2 minutes.
3. AND drives fixed, and...
4. AND drives changed to Nuclear Drives. They are available at TL 7+. At TL
7 they use NTR stats. At TL 8 they use AdvNTR. At TL 9 they use Gas Core
NTR. And at TL 10+ they use AND. This will allow lower tech missiles (for
the IW period) to be designed (although they'll have to be BIG).

The spreadsheet can be found on my traveller website:

www.ames.net/igor/traveller/

You can simply download it form the filelist area, or browse through the
site and get it from the Operations page.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+  |
|       vi+ da+                                                      |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                           |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:07:12 -0500
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: To: Bruce Macintosh

Hey, Bruce...my email to you is bouncing. It's saying that you're not a
user.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+  |
|       vi+ da+                                                      |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                           |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 1998 12:13 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Re: Milieu E21 and Space Construction: My Frustration

Ahhh, thank you.  I feel better.
Bruce, Bruce, and Scott talked me down from my hysteria, back into 
the Real World (tm).  Okay, the rules aren't hopelessly broken.

It looks like, in general, a world will be able to handle the
amount of traffic aimed at it, with plenty of room to spare.
Sounds fine by me; I can limit or proliferate traffic at my whim.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 08:40:56 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Drug Drug

Fun page, dedicated to fictional drugs from various sources.

http://turing.furman.edu/homepages/matt/fun.html


- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 08:59:49 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music.

At 07:51 AM 6/12/98 -0700, Bruce wrote:

>Jimmy Buffet
>Grateful Dead

ah.  Another Dead Parrot Head

Much of my musical taste was influenced by Craig making me listen to Yes,
Genesis, and other prog-rock bands in the '70s.

- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 08:57:25 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music.

At 02:39 PM 6/12/98 +1200, you wrote:
>I was just sitting here contemplating my navel when it struck me, are
>Traveller fanatics similar? As an idea I came across music as an analogy to
>feeling. I was just wondering if you guys had a similar mindset to mine,
>e-mail me privately if you don't want to pollute the list. Personally I
>don't give a shug (remember Ace Trucking Company?) either way.
>
>I like,
The Grateful Dead
Meatloaf
Def Leppard
Genesis
San Francisco Jazz/Blues
Filk Music

- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 08:54:56 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Amber Zones

At 11:42 PM 6/11/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Anson Betts was asking about Amber Zones:
>
>An Amber Zone is a travel classification by the Travellers' Aid Society,
>intended to warn their members to use added caution when venturing
>to that system. Some common reasons:
>
>1) Xenophobia: The natives tend to react in a hostile fashion to those
>from other planets or cultures. You may be a target for assault, robbery,
>or murder, so you may want to stay in the extra-territorial starport
>area, or only venture forth in large groups.

How about Xeno*philia*?  Picture a world where every Free Trader crew is
greeted with the fervor that met the Beatles...
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 08:53:17 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Amber Zones

At 02:49 PM 6/12/98 +1200, you wrote:
>I was just reading in the MT Ref's manual about amber zones, what are the
>criteria for making a world an amber zone?

Basically, any condition that makes the world unsafe for any visitor.  It
could be an environmental problem, social unrest, our even a religious cult
that believes off-worlders are holy and must be kidnapped and worshiped.

The criteria is that the threat is on-going and widespread.  AIDS wouldn't
qualify, since you have to work to get it.  Am Ebola varient that was a bit
hardier and spread by aresol would probably qualify.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:00:18 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, June 12, 1998 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music.


>Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>>
>> At 02:39 PM 12/06/98 +1200, Anson Betts wrote:
>
>> >I like,
>> >NOFX
>> >nomeansno
>> >the Vandals
>> >Iron Maiden
>> >Nirvana
>> >Gene Pitney
>>
>> Guess not:
>> Dire Straits
>> Fleetwood Mac
>> Some Pink Floyd
>> David Bowie
>> Stevie Nix
>> Clancy Brothers
>> Pogues
>> Split Enz
>> Crowded House
>
>Nope:
>
>Jimmy Buffet
>Grateful Dead
>Most Pink Floyd
>Annie Lennox
>Dire Straits
>.

Well, I like Jimmy Buffet, Dire Straits, Fleetwood Mac, Stevie Nicks, and
(under certain, uncontrollable circumstances) Pink Floyd.

but there is also:
Led Zepplin
Blue Oyster Cult
Billy Joel
No Doubt
Pearl Jam
Loreena McKennitt

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:06:15 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music. 

> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > 
> > At 02:39 PM 12/06/98 +1200, Anson Betts wrote:
> 
> > >I like,
> > >NOFX
> > >nomeansno
> > >the Vandals
> > >Iron Maiden
> > >Nirvana
> > >Gene Pitney
> > 
> > Guess not:
> > Dire Straits
> > Fleetwood Mac
> > Some Pink Floyd
> > David Bowie
> > Stevie Nix
> > Clancy Brothers
> > Pogues
> > Split Enz
> > Crowded House
> 
> Nope:
> 
> Jimmy Buffet
> Grateful Dead
> Most Pink Floyd
> Annie Lennox
> Dire Straits

Heh.  Try these:

Thompson Twins
Heart
The Pretenders
The Moody Blues
Billy Joel

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:11:11 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller and Musical Tastes 

> Well, I don't think that musical tastes and interest in Traveller would
> be likely to have much correspondence.
> 
> Most of my music collection consists of early music (medieval, renaissance,
> and baroque). I skip almost all of the 19th century, and my 20th century
> collection is small, and consists of a few neo-classical composers (e.g.,
> Prokofiev), some folk singers, Scottish bagpipes, Canadian fiddle music,
> and Huun Huur Tu (Tuvan throat singers.)  I've been known to inflict things
> like Tibetan temple music on players as the "popular music" of whatever
> planet they're barhopping on...

Heh.  Wait til you drop your PC's on a planet where the local classical music
is based on something called 'country and western' when they're used to high
energy technopunk.  <grin>

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:37:21 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Traveller and Musical Tastes 

At 01:11 PM 6/12/98 -0400, Keven wrote:

>Heh.  Wait til you drop your PC's on a planet where the local classical
music is based on something called 'country and western' when they're used
to high energy technopunk.  <grin>

In Davis Weber's "Honor Harrington" series, the planet Grayson has just
that.  They also are a good example of how to make a familiar society into
something alien.

Grayson first appears in "Honor of the Queen"
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry     dberry@hooked.net |
|     http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
|----------------------------------------|
| "The best tank terrain is that without |
|  anti-tank weapons."                   |
|            -Russian Military Doctrine  |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:58:42 PDT
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Amber Zones

Amber Zone....  Piracy!  <ducking and changing the fins and pods on my 
exterior>



Greg Smith
The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:00:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: StarShade <dstar2@infinet.com>
Subject: Re: Selling a starship

On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Chester L Cox wrote:

> The following exchange:
> 
> >>So the question is, if you weren't interested in the trader's life,
> could
> >>you turn around and sell it [a big honking ship  --Chet] 
> >> for the bargain price of MCr 28 and retire on
> >>the extra few million credits? 
> >
> >Yep. And if I was the Referee I'd tell you: "OK, your character retires
> in
> >comfort. Give me the character sheet, I'll put it in with my other NPCs.
> >Now please roll a new character that will fit into the campaign I've
> >designed."
> 
>                                                           reminded me
> that one of my characters did exactly this during character generation. 
> Our referee then promptly made this character the target of a kidnapping
> attempt, which ended with that character charged with murder.  A
> fast-thinking referee is the bane of a successful character generation,
> but makes for a fun weekend long game.
> 
Hmmm... Why is this such a big problem for referee's to handle... What 
makes a character with a lot of money different than other characters... 
So they now stay at the ritz instead of the slum hotel... ??? Or they 
might actually be able to make repairs on another ship - of course until 
the money goes away...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:01:11 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka

Yes, this topic has been done, if not to death, then to "severely
crippled". I don't mind, however, as I'd rather see endless digests on
Vilani medical technology than I would on piracy. Please excuse the long
post because, to quote Mark Twain, I didn't have the time to write a
shorter one.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> makes a number of
good points:

> Why are the Vilani so vulnerable to Terran diseases during the RoM?
> 1. Weakened immune response system. 
> 2. No exposure to viruses.
> 3. General poor quality of biomedical tech.
> 4. Lack of medical resources.
> 5. Social habits.

The only thing I would disagree with him about is #5 - While the Vilani
are perhaps more gregarious than Terrans, I doubt that any one human
population is any harder to quarantine than any other population of a
similar size. It's not like every Terran is living is his or her own
shack in the woods.

Brian Mays wrote:

> But in the meantime, the Vilani had colonized thousands of worlds.  
> ONE of them HAD to have bacteria/viruses . . .

Well... Andrew already addressed this point somewhat, but let's look at
how infectious diseases break down. As a warning, I'm a computer
engineer and marketing person - I didn't even take Grade 13 biology, so
this is a pretty "lay" breakdown.

1. infectious "things"
  Things that normally don't bother most people, but due to weird immune
systems, happen occasionally, like fungal infections. Most fungal
infections are restricted to the skin, but I believe that really rarely
they can do things like take up residence in the spine or other odd
places and cause problems. It is conceivable that a fungus compatible
with the Vilani could exist away from Earth.

2. bacterial infections
 Some microbacterial organism takes up residence in you. Treatment is
fairly straightforward, via antibiotics. The Vilani might be more prone
to these than Terrans due to having generally weaker immune systems, but
it's not like the Terran immune system is so great at dealing with these
either (Gardia - sp? - whacks more than a few campers each year).

3. viral infections
 It's difficult to imagine human-compatible viruses arising outside of
an environment like Terra, where there are lots of potential, mostly
genetically similar/compatible hosts. Chances are the Vilani have never
encountered a serious virus and if they had, chances are they just nuked
the planet into one big cue ball. They may have encountered viruses on
minor human homeworlds, but the locals probably also had a cure or
treatment of some sort. This category includes things like (and please,
correct me if I'm wrong) plagues, influenza, AIDS/HIV and various poxes.
Immunity or susceptibility to these diseases is sometimes genetic
(referring to recent discoveries finding that some people are
genetically immune to HIV)

4. other infections things
 Like mad cow disease, which is, as I understand it, not even up at the
virus level, but more like a really nasty protein or somesuch. These are
usually difficult to transmit and are the best cure is to avoid getting
into the transmission path of the disease.

So, numbers 1 & 4 could probably happen to anyone, anywhere, but aren't
that difficult to avoid and don't kill huge numbers of people, so they
can be pretty much ignored. Number 2, bacterial infections, are
reasonably preventable with adequate hygiene and are treatable with
antibiotics, which the Vilani could probably discover.

So, that leaves us with number 3.

Treating viral infections has been quite a challenge for us here on
Earth and although we think we're pretty good at it, we've only been at
it for about 100 years or so. We're just now seeing the results of our
typical methods of treatment - the resurgence of resistant forms of the
disease. Terran methods for dealing with viral infections basically rely
on stimulating our already overworked immune systems into producing more
antibodies, which may or may not work for the Vilani. All things
considered, the majority of our techniques for dealing with diseases
like the poxes and the flu are fairly low-tech - infect everyone with a
really small amount of the disease and they won't get it again.

Also, when you look at Vilani psychology and behavior patterns, what
are their likely reactions to encounters with this kind of disease? (I
wish I could quote from V&V here, but my copy is at home) We know that
they don't take prisoners of war. We know that they value group benefit
over individual benefit. We know they dislike having to discover new
ways of dealing with things - they would rather do by rote than do by
understanding. We know that most of their medical knowledge is tied up
with the shugilli (sp?) who probably know how to deal with disease
categories 1 & 2 and administer what we'd consider "homeopathic"
medicines. We know that the Vilani consider themselves superior to other
minor human races and would probably resist adopting anything from such
"inferior" societies.

Also, I've been dying to post this for a while - I heard it in a speech
that was rebroadcast on CBC quite a while ago. Look at the modern method
of treating disease, infection or even things like crop pests.
Essentially you find some "thing" (e.g. some drug or pesticide) that
will affect the disease in question. Let's take the example of using a
drug to treat a disease. Because the drug may have side-effects in the
patient, you use as little of the drug as possible to get rid of the
problem. If the problem re-appears, you up the dosage, again, as little
as possible, and re-apply. Eventually you have one of two outcomes: you
have destroyed the disease or you have bred a new version of the same
disease that's totally resistant to that particular drug because this
process is, in essence, the same as selecting breeding (in this case,
breeding a new disease strain that's drug-resistant).

Maybe the Vilani, for whatever reason, don't use this technique. Maybe
they use maximum dosage of any drug right off the bat, regardless of the
side effects. Or maybe they just don't bother trying to cure sick people
and just "sterilize" them ASAP.

So, imagine if you will... a group of Vilani land on Planet X and come
back infected. What will the rest of the ship do on discovering this?
Probably space everyone who's infected. Problem solved. I'm sure they'd
be able to detect who is and isn't infected, but curing the infection -
Why bother? The average Vilani doesn't like to try to learn new things,
the shugili (sp?) can't deal with it, it's dangerous to the group...
spacew 'em.

So, everything was probably well and good until those pesky Terrans came
along. While Terran-Vilani interbreeding and Terran disease treatments
probably brought the Vilani disease resistance a long way in a short
time, those first, early days of contact were probably, well... *cough*
*hack* less than pleasant for the Vilani.

if I've gotten something terribly wrong, please, do correct me.

Ethan
- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:21:45 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: How diseases work (was Re: Disease and the fall...)

Well, possesing somewhat higher grade-level of knowledge here, I'll
gently correct Ethan a bit, still in real basic form.

Ethan Henry wrote:

> 1. infectious "things"

Fungi that infect humans tend to infect exterior surfaces, as most of
them are aerobic, requiring oxygen to live; this however, includes
things that _most_ people don't consider exterior, things like lungs,
the digestive tract, and some parts of the genito-urinary tract.
infection happens under two major conditions, (with some exceptions) the
fungi colonizes a part of the body hard for immune cells to reach (dead
layers of epidermis, mucus membranes) athlete's foot and yeast
infections in women fall into these categories. All that is required for
this is that the organism physically be able to live on the host
(temperature, atmosphere , stc) and be able to metabolize something on
the host (otherwise the stuff doesn't grow). These cause prblems in
humans when the conditions, normally unfavorable to growth (things like
skin pH, availability of micronutrients, exposure to the organism, etc,
change, and cause a 'bloom', a population surge that overwhelms the
hosts ability to fight it off. The itching typical of such infections,
in fact, is due to the immune response.

In immuno-compromised hosts, the fungi can invade many more places on
the host.

> 2. bacterial infections
>  Some microbacterial organism takes up residence in you. (Gardia - sp? - whacks more than a few campers each year).

Bacteria work in much the same fashion as fungi, they live on the host,
using it as a source of food; any damage done to the host is due to
either overwhelming growth of the bacteria, toxins excreted by the
bacteria, or side-effects of the host's immune response. Bacteria can
also be abnaerobic or facultative anaerobes, meaning they don't need
oxygen to survive. Anaerobes are often poisoned by oxygen, in fact,
which is why there are only a few strict anaerobes that cause problems
in humans. Bacteria that normally colonize humans have developed
defenses against the immune system, such as slime coats that preven
attachments of immune molecular markers and suchlike.

Ok, Giardia is something else entirely, they are protozoal parasites.
They colonize the gut, but in action they're more akin to fleas than
anything else. Again, there are a large number of parasites that have
evolved to attack humans, most of them have also evolved fairly
sophisticated defenses against the human immune system. 

 
> 3. viral infections

Viruses are the most exquisitely obligate parasites in existence. The
vast majority affect only a single species. Others live benignly in some
hosts, and are ragingly infections in others. One theory going around is
that many of these viruses are in fact, not parasites, but symbiotes.
They live in their own host without effect, but infect and kill
'competitors' of the host. This is one theory for the rising incidence
of nasties like Ebola...humans are invading the rainforests, disturbing
the hosts, causing them to start shedding virus, causing the infections,
removing the disturbing elements. This would be a clear evolutionary
advantage.

This is also extraordinarily unlikely to occur anywhere but on Terra. 

This theory is explained in better detail in the last chapters of:

AUTHOR       Ryan, Frank, 1944-
 TITLE        Virus X : tracking the new killer plagues : out of the
present
                and into the future / Frank Ryan.
 EDITION      1st ed.
 PUBLISHER    Boston : Little, Brown, c1997.
 DESCRIPTION  xvii, 430 p., [8] p. of plates : ill., map ; 25 cm.
 NOTES        Includes bibliographical references (p. [391]-419) and
index.
 SUBJECTS     Communicable diseases -- Epidemiology.

This is a thoroughly scary book, though a bit sensationalistic.
- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #580
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Saturday, June 13 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 581



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Jump and Maneuver: IMTU (long)
Re: How diseases work
Music
Personal Computers in Traveller
Re: How diseases work
Re: Selling a starship
[T98#575] Traveller Domain names
JG and the IRS
Re: Amber Zones
Re Amber Zones
Re: How diseases work
Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music.
Re: MegaTraveller Errata
Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music.
Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music. 
Annual Maintenance & Starports

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:24:05 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Jump and Maneuver: IMTU (long)

I always love discussions on Jump Theory.  They get so involved, so
technical with proponents pounding in on every possible angle.

And it's all made up!  :)

Anyway, here's my .02 cr worth.

You made it.  The pilot was barely sober enough to get his Imperial ID (with
his Pilot's ticket) plugged into the NavComp after a week of downport
liberty, and he totally forgot to take into account the change in mass for
the new cargo for the dustoff from that miserable, Class E excuse of a
starport.  If he hadn't been trying to show off and perform the launch by
the 'seat of his pants, he wouldn't have dragged the port landing skid
through the berm surrounding the berth.  (At least it was only compacted
earth, rather than the duro-concrete that would have been used at a more
advanced facility) The fact that the landing skids were only retracted once
he punched up the standard orbit profile and engaged the autopilot only
makes you regret the credits you saved by hiring this Pilot-1 instead of the
Pilot-4 who also answered your ad a bit more.

Still, the computer has you in a standard orbit.  The Pilot is passed out in
his seat - his cert still active in the computer.  What now?

Automation is a wonderful thing.  Starships have the capacity to virtually
fly themselves, but a Pilot is required by Imperial law.  Fire up the
'Manuever' program, plug the certification (coded into a Imperial ID card)
into the Pilot's workstation and the ship is ready to fly.  The software
that he and the astrogator use has certain functions built in that allow for
extreme ease of use.

'Maneuver' functions:
'Establish Orbit' - moves you from a point in space to a designated planet
and establishes a Imperial Standard orbit.  Also used to return to a
Standard Imperial orbit from either a downport or highport.

'Land' - takes you from an Imperial Standard orbit to land at the designated
spaceport (requires either active sensors or a direct communications link
with an ATC computer.)  Note - local gravity must be less than the rated
output of your M-Drive (the software does not allow for overdriving the
M-drive.)  This function is not designed for 'Wild' (non-spaceport)
landings, although it will take a ship down to a 'soft' (i.e. water) landing
quite well.

'Dock' - computes and executes the manuevers necessary to dock with a
designated space platform or craft (requires either active sensors or a
direct communications link with an ATC computer.)

'Go There'  - the pilot picks a point or planet from the system display, and
the software computes and executes the necessary manuevers to reach those
coordinates.  When the 'Generate' package is running, the Maneuver series
integrates the resulting calculation into the 'Go There' function and
executes it.

'Evade' - Specific upgrades to the software package, it permits the pilot to
override specific safety functions in the 'Manuever' software (such as
closest permissable approach, drive ratings, max atmospheric speed, hull
stress warnings, etc...)

'Generate' allows the astrogator to set up and execute Hyperspacial
Transitions (Jumps).  Stellar and planetary data is culled from the Library
Data package and used for the calculations.  Making a Jump in any but the
most controlled conditions is considered very hazardous, and to this end
most astrogators prefer to reduce as many additional variables as possible.
The most basic function of the software establish a Jump calculating a
direct course from point A to point B.  Increased capabilities in the
software allow for:

Running Jump - jump to hyperspace with a realspace vector.  Normally an
astrogator will plot a jump with a system neutral vector.

Running Exit - emerge from hyperspace with a realspace vector.  Normally an
astrogator will plot a jump to result in a system neutral vector.

Jump offsets - permits the astrogator to plot a realspace course that would
result in a Jump to one point, when in reality the Jumpgrid activates in
such a way as to provide a J-Vector to another point.  (i.e. he left Mos
Eisley on a course for Dantooine, but actually jumps to Yavin.)  If a
scanner is directed at the starship at the time of jump, it is possible to
eventually - it's a formidible task for a astrogator even with computer
assistance - be able to determine the course laid in.

Emergence offsets - normally the course of the jump is calculated, if
possible, to cross the path of the destination planet.  This is to allow the
gravity well of the target planet to precipitate the emergence at
approximately the 100 diameter point.  It is possible, however, to program
the jump to emerge at any point the astrogator desires, within the
capability of the J-drive.  This is considered to be a very challenging task
for an astrogator because of variances in the individual ship's jump fields,
as well as the minor errors in the library database, as well as any errors
introduced by the astrogator or pilot in the course of plotting and
executing the jump.

Coordinated Jumps - used when more than one ship will be jumping, and it is
desirous for all the ships to appear in a coordinated fashion.  Again,
because of individual variances in the jump fields, detailed information
must be passed between all of the ships in the squadron for the 'Generate'
programs to produce an effective jump-plan.  This can be a very dangerous
manuever, and is generally only performed by military ships with a
task-optimized 'Generate' program.

I generally provide 'basic' packages to the players - if they want access to
more advanced features they need to either 'upgrade' or write additional
features into their own software.

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:56:36 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: How diseases work

Thanks for the correction/clarification, Bruce. 

I like to think of myself as semi-biologically-literate, but I spent
most of my post-secondary education doing stuff like magnetic circuits
and splicing fiber optic cable... *shudder*. I suppose I should have
expected a correction from someone whose mail server is called
"pharmacy".

> Fungi that infect humans tend to infect exterior surfaces, as most of
> them are aerobic, requiring oxygen to live;

With the fungal thing, I actually had in mind a case someone told me
about last week... a child was in our local Sick Kid's hospital for
quite a while with a variety of symptoms that were untraceable to any
one root cause... until someone discovered that some fungus had taken up
residence in his spinal cord. If that sounds odd, it may well be wrong,
but that's how I heard the story (in the context of how great Sick Kid's
is in that this kid did eventually get diagnosed and treated). Your
description of fungal infections seems at odds with this, so I'm not
sure what to think of the story I heard, but I suppose we could use our
imaginations to come up with some sort of anaerobic fungus-like
microorganism that could set up shop in places you don't want it to.

> Ok, Giardia is something else entirely, they are protozoal parasites.

Hm, I hadn't though about parasites. I suppose it is conceivable that
the Vilani could have run into some sort of parasite that could cause
them problems, but like bacteria, parasites are (mostly) easy to prevent
once you know their "attack vector". There might be a Vilani equivalent
of the deer tick, but it won't exactly be destroying millions or
toppling empires.

> Viruses are the most exquisitely obligate parasites in existence. 

Viruses work via the virus hijacking a cell's DNA reproduction
mechanism, right? They're basically a protein shell with some RNA
inside, right? Or am I hallucinating what little I know about viruses?

Also, on the topic of viruses, there has been some news of late that
some researchers are starting to think that conditions like ulcers and
diabetes (not the late-onset type, I forget which is which) are, in
fact, caused by viruses and not by some failing of the body's internal
systems. If a lack of viruses causes a lack of diseases like diabetes,
ulcers and so on, this could explain that darn Vilani long lifespan.

Again, thanks for the clarifications!
- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 22:01:10 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Music

I still listen to much of the stuff I grew up on - when I was first playing
Traveller in my early teens I was listening to Deep Purple and its various
spinoffs (Rainbow, Whitesnake etc) plus Black Sabbath, Rush etc. Also Dire
Straits and Ultravox.

I've just got the Deep Purple 25th anniversary CDs (Machine Head is in my
CD player right now ('Let's go Space Trucking.....') and I still play the
others, plus Tom Petty, Fleetwood Mac and lots of blues (Stevie Ray
Vaughan). 

Tell you anything?

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 17:05:35 -0400
From: Michael Kent <mkent@atlantic.net>
Subject: Personal Computers in Traveller

I'd like to get some comments on how to run computers, particularly
personal computers, in Traveller (in an MT setting).

The Traveller rules for computers focus on starship computers,
naturally.  The MT rules seem to have dropped the CT concept that
different computer programs competed for space in the ship's computer,
that you could only run so many programs (forex: while the computer was
running the jump calculations, the anit-hijack program had to be
suspended).

These rules are a bit dated, to say the least, as has been discussed
many times before.  (Anyone have better rules?)

What I'd really like to focus on, though, are rules for handling the
interaction of PCs with personal computers.  IMTU, I envision a wearable
PC, about the size of a deck of cards, with the power of what would
today be a low-end supercomputer.  It is, of course, connected to the
local network (ship-wide or world-wide) via high-speed, wide-bandwidth
wireless connection.  Input/Output for the user is via several means.  A
version of Glenn Grant's Smartglasses provides display output (a
complete heads-up holodisplay, with eye and head position tracking), as
well as audio output.  Input is via voice (using the Smartglasses), and
also by means of a bracelet that senses both movement and neuromuscular
activity to allow the user to "point-and-click", to handle "virtual"
objects (but with no tactile feedback), and to "type" or "draw".  For
those requiring tactile feedback, Data Gloves are available.  All of
these peripherals talk to the personal computer wirelessly.

Given all of this, what are some reasonable rules for their use?  What
do I do when the PC inevitably wants to write a new program to hack the
net, or crack some megacorps' security?  How powerful would a 'smart
agent' program be in searching the net for data useful to the PCs?

Any thoughts?  :o)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:40:11 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: How diseases work

Ethan Henry wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the correction/clarification, Bruce.
> 
> I like to think of myself as semi-biologically-literate, but I spent
> most of my post-secondary education doing stuff like magnetic circuits
> and splicing fiber optic cable... *shudder*. I suppose I should have
> expected a correction from someone whose mail server is called
> "pharmacy".

Whereas I spent most of mine doing microbiology; which I promptly
abandoned in favor of analytic chemistry and later, database systems
admining ;-)

> > Fungi that infect humans tend to infect exterior surfaces, as most of
> > them are aerobic, requiring oxygen to live;
> 
> With the fungal thing, I actually had in mind a case someone told me
> about last week... a child was in our local Sick Kid's hospital for
> quite a while with a variety of symptoms that were untraceable to any
> one root cause... until someone discovered that some fungus had taken up
> residence in his spinal cord. If that sounds odd, it may well be wrong,
> but that's how I heard the story (in the context of how great Sick Kid's
> is in that this kid did eventually get diagnosed and treated)

My description was over-simplified. It is certainly possible to get
systemic infections with fungi, though in non immune-compropmised people
they are extremely rare. We are areobic, so it's quite possible for
organisms to get O2 from inside of us, but they'll be quite slow
growing, particularly in the case of obligate aerobes like fungi.
 
> > Ok, Giardia is something else entirely, they are protozoal parasites.
> 
> Hm, I hadn't though about parasites. I suppose it is conceivable that
> the Vilani could have run into some sort of parasite that could cause
> them problems, but like bacteria, parasites are (mostly) easy to prevent
> once you know their "attack vector". There might be a Vilani equivalent
> of the deer tick, but it won't exactly be destroying millions or
> toppling empires.

well, the deer tick itself is relatively harmless...it's the bacterium
causing Lyme disease that gives us fits...

Still, it's unlikely that true parasites on alien worlds will have much
to do with us...parasites tend to specialize quite a bit on specific
hosts. There are relatively few, such as the deer tick that generalize,
for instance, in warm-blooded mammals.
 
> > Viruses are the most exquisitely obligate parasites in existence.
> 
> Viruses work via the virus hijacking a cell's DNA reproduction
> mechanism, right? They're basically a protein shell with some RNA
> inside, right? Or am I hallucinating what little I know about viruses?

Well, partly. Those are the RNA viruses, such as AIDS and influenza.
Others are DNA plus protein, but the basic modus operandi is the same,
hijack the cell's own machinery to make new viruses.
 
> Also, on the topic of viruses, there has been some news of late that
> some researchers are starting to think that conditions like ulcers and
> diabetes (not the late-onset type, I forget which is which) are, in
> fact, caused by viruses and not by some failing of the body's internal
> systems.

There's a bacterial infection that's been conclusively linked to gastric
ulcers, following Koch's postulates...an Australian researcher, who did
not have an ulcer, deliberately infected himself with the bacteria and
promptly developed ulcers, and cured himself with antibiotic treatment.
Since then, there has been quite a bit of success treating ulcers with
antibiotics.

As far as diabetes, there are a number of postulated causes, viruses are
a leading candidate in some cases. Diabetes, however is a hard one,
since the juvenile onset form (Type II or II I can never remember which)
is reasonably well recognized as an autoimmune disease. What's unclear
is how much of the other clinical symptoms associated with diabetes is
due to the diabetics altered metabolism, the treatments, or further
autoimmune problems.

> If a lack of viruses causes a lack of diseases like diabetes,
> ulcers and so on, this could explain that darn Vilani long lifespan.

Sure would...
 
> Again, thanks for the clarifications!
> --
> Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
> Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:40:44 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Selling a starship

At 02:00 PM 6/12/98 -0400, StarShade wrote:
>On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Chester L Cox wrote:
>> The following exchange:
>> >>So the question is, if you weren't interested in the trader's life,
>> >>could ou turn around and sell it [a big honking ship  --Chet] 
>> >> for the bargain price of MCr 28 and retire on
>> >>the extra few million credits? 
>> >
>> >Yep. And if I was the Referee I'd tell you: "OK, your character retires
>> > in comfort. Give me the character sheet, I'll put it in with my other
>> > NPCs. Now please roll a new character that will fit into the campaign
>> > I've designed."
>> [story about how a ref used a character who did this as a kidnap victim.

>Hmmm... Why is this such a big problem for referee's to handle... What 
>makes a character with a lot of money different than other characters... 
>So they now stay at the ritz instead of the slum hotel... ??? Or they 
>might actually be able to make repairs on another ship - of course until 
>the money goes away...

The real problem is that most referees have a very limited image of what a
successful role playing game is.  This is not necessarily a problem, as
long as the players match that very narrow image, and have a good idea of
the genre.  For example, most of my games devolve into a quasi spy/action
movie plot, in which there is a fair amount of gunfire., a lot of
conspiracies, and a whole legion of Mr Shoes characters talking in circles.
 On the plus side, money is rarely a real problem for this kind of plot, so
I do not usually need to keep them dirt poor.  No amount of money can
really solve their problems, while influence is a very dear coin indeed.

Usually, there is an ancient site crawl in there somewhere, and often at
least one, but rarely more than three, killer ships that everyone in the
party would kill to own.  These are wealth, but off the scale, and players
are not willing to give them up, because they may be the only ways to solve
their adventure.

These are my habits.  If the players are expecting hard boiled thriller, or
mystery, and I do not know it, they will be disappointed.  Given that the
last two were both spy type games, the next one should either be a lost
colony, or a mystery adventure with minimal gunplay.  They should also be
far less political, if I have any say in the matter.

Since I know my own habits, I spend some time thinking up the pulls that
will cause Knights of the Realm to subject themselves to this kind of
threat.  In fact, the players in the current game were told to ask for
anything they needed from their patron.  Since his personal operating
budget for them  was a cool ten million a year, they never fazed him with
any of their rather modest requests.

A previous episode had a group all trying to become rich rich rich, so they
did not care about small amounts of cash.  They were setting up a colony
world.

In other games, cash was a big motivator.  when the players struck it rich,
that games was essentially over with.

So, if you have cash as a primary motivator, it really screws you up if the
players have a lot of it.  If they only have a little, then it can be fun.
Unless the GM is willing to change the structure of the planned game, a
rich player entering a cash poor game is going to be hard to handle.  I
usually change the game in question, rather than blunt the creativity of
the players, but then, I rarely plan out the details of what will happen.

My next game might be based around several TAS members, without a lot of
wealth, but with a lot of wanderlust.  They will go to interesting and
exotic places every few months, and have the intervening time to explore,
get in trouble, and otherwise enjoy themselves, with the end goal being
some grand goal, such as a book on their travels, a complete history of a
minor race, or the real use of an Alien Widget.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 22:23:55 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T98#575] Traveller Domain names

On Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:56:33 -0400, Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
wrote:

>Somone mentioned "zhodani.org" and it got me thinking... what
>Traveller-related domain names are out there? A lot are available, but
>the names that are used outside of "Traveller" tend to be gone (i.e.
>Aslan). Anyway, through the miracle of shell scripts, I munged this list
>together... apologies for the size. I didn't query European domains
>because they're on a separate WHOIS server and my shell programming
>skills aren't _that_ good. (Also, here's to hoping I didn;t misspell
>anything!)

Uhh, erm, Ethan?  Didn't you miss the most important one of all?

Do be a nice Traveller fan, and look up Traveller.*!

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:59:49 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: JG and the IRS

Some one was asking how Titan could sell JG products when Mr Bludsoe
cannot. Simple: What was sold before tax liens were applied (ie, no longer
in Mr Bludsoe's possession, not nessasarily so;d to the public) is
unaffected by the tax lien, as the income to Mr. Bludsoe is already in his
possession. So, if Titan Games has a stock, they can sell them. If they
arrange a deal where they can reproduce items, from items not currently in
Mr Bludsoe's possession, and with no cash return to Mr Bludsoe, they can.

If Mr Bludsoe makes any moneys from any product, the IRS can sieze the
moneys, and/or hold product and infrastructure for sale/auction in order to
pay off the tax lien.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:17:13 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Amber Zones

Douglas Glatz wrote:
> 
> The important thing to realize about Amber and Red Zones is that they are
> designated by the TAS, not the Imperium.  Since the TAS is literally, a
> Traveller's Aid Society, anything that poses a significant danger to
> travellers (members or otherwise) will draw their attention (and result in
> a downgrading of the travel code).
> 
> douglas
> 
> ----------
> From:   Anson Betts[SMTP:Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz]
> Sent:   Thursday, June 11, 1998 7:49 PM
> To:     Traveller List
> Subject:        Amber Zones
> 
> I was just reading in the MT Ref's manual about amber zones, what are the
> criteria for making a world an amber zone?
> 
> War? I don't think so, unless it's global or nuclear (in which case it'll
> be
> over in a couple of hours). Look at earth today, we have numerous wars
> going
> on but it's still safe to visit most countries.
> 
> Disease? Remember Ebola? It didn't make the whole planet un-safe, just a
> portion of it dangerous. I wonder if AIDS could be considered lethal enough
> to stop visitors, it's certainly lethal and communicable...
> 
> Famine? Hell this would make the planet ripe for trade, just bring em food
> and they'll love you.
> 
> Pestilence? Anything pestile enough to make an amber zone would have chewed
> the colonists long ago.
> 
> Anyone else got any ideas?
> 
> Cheers,
>  Anson
> 
> I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather,
> not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car.

The question is, who tells TAS ???

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:09:49 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Re Amber Zones

What can justify an Amber Zone?

1) Paranoid Dictatorship (or any strong government), which  sees
off-worlders as the enemy. Think the USSR in the 60's.

2) Extreme Law Levels. Self Evident.

3) Unusual taboos and behaviors. FoEx, a world where local custom includes
copulation upon introduction.

4) bizarre, seldom used but really exploitive laws. FoEx: a world
governmenty decides to enhance their genetic traits of a certain type.
Those meeting the genotypic standards may be held until reproduction. IE,
manditory sperm/egg donorship.

5) Long term "Light War": Lots of low level skirmishes, all without
official "approval", and constant terrorism.

6) Dangerous environment: World UPP doesn't reflect some hazardous aspect.
FoEx: A beautiful terran-type world, with NO VanAllen  Belts and No Ozone
layer. (Yes, highly improbable...1:1E1000 or worse...) Fine to visit short
term, just don't stay there. Another Example: A world with a parasitic
native life form that can host off humans localy, and tends to interfere
with judgement.

7) Any world which makes reviewing the stats for the Traveller's Aid
Society a crime.


 Remember, the TAS puts out the zones; red zones are either a Navy, Scout,
or Locally Requested Interdict. Amber is anyplace else you are: Unwelcome,
in significant danger, or Outlawed.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 18:07:33 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: How diseases work

 
> > Fungi that infect humans tend to infect exterior surfaces, as most of
> > them are aerobic, requiring oxygen to live;
> 
> With the fungal thing, I actually had in mind a case someone told me
> about last week... a child was in our local Sick Kid's hospital for

Fungal infections can be extremely nasty, and _fast_. Usually people
are immunosupressed that get really nasty ones, but my wife tells me
that people can get a fungal infection and be dead in a matter of
hours or days. 

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 22:47:00 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music.

Or try these:
Alan Parsons Project
Clannad
Enya
Loreena McKennit
BB King
The Blues Brothers Band
Leningrad Comboys
ZZ Top
Fischmob and Fuenf Sterne deluxe (German Rap)
- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 19:16:31 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: MegaTraveller Errata

At 09:14 am 6/12/98 CDT, you wrote:
>Ok - is there a website where the *COMPLETE* set of MegaTraveller
errata
>is stored?

	Don't know if it's complete, but I've got all the MT errata I'm
aware of.

	http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/Traveller
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:09:02 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music.

At 07:51 AM 12/06/98 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:

>ok, ok there's some overlap...
>
>at a wild-ass guess I'll bet our musical tastes are far more correlated with
>our ages.
>
>Though Pink Floyd's Echoes is still one of the _best_ damn ways to make your
>players paranoid, playing in the background...;-)

I haven't tried that, but it's a damn good idea... Now all I need is a real
record player :(


- -- 

Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North
New Zealand

   

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:22:02 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music. 

At 01:06 PM 12/06/98 -0400, Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:

>Heh.  Try these:
>
>Thompson Twins
>Heart
>The Pretenders
>The Moody Blues
>Billy Joel

This is reminding me of all these band s that I'd forgotten about because I
don't own any of their music (or have them on records which I can't play).

For example I also like:
Led Zeppelin
Roxy Music
The Pretenders
The Moody Blues
Cream
Talking Heads
U2 (their older work, for preference)
Tom Petty

and in my less sane moments:
Madonna
Blondie
Abba

I also 20th century 'classical' music by Mahler, Vaughn Williams and
Sibelius. I find Mahler wonderfully atmospheric for roleplaying heroic
fantasy.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 17:58:09 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Annual Maintenance & Starports

Hi All,

Couple of quick questions.

Does anyone have a Canon description of what exactly is 
done during "annual maintenance"?

Is it the sort of thing that say a 400t maintenance Ship 
couldn't do to a 100t Xboat?  If not why not?

Starports have been bugging me recently as having vague 
descriptions. I'd like to think that you could build an installation 
that was capable of doing annual maintenance on up to say 400t craft, 
without having all the other things that an A or B class 
starport is supposed to  have. I'm beginning to think that 
a size indicator for the starport is a good idea. (e.g 
Small Class A, or Large Class B, or Large Shipyard with 
only small docks).

Perhaps a port Profile or description could be
Port - 5000t Orbital DryDock, 10000t Orbital Docking (92 
docking bays), 100000t Ground parking space at 3 sites, 
Refined Fuel, Annual maintenance in orbit up to 1000t. 

Has anyone else put any thought into something like this already?

Steve

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #581
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Traveller-digest       Saturday, June 13 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 582



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Annual maintainence and starports
Re: Jump and Maneuver: IMTU (long)
Re: Annual Maintenance & Starports
Re: TU using Book2ish CT ship designs
Re: Annual Maintenance & Starports
Re: Annual maintainence and starports
Re: JG and the IRS
Re: Annual Maintenance & Starports 
Re: Traveller and Musical Tastes 
Re: Realistic pirate expenses
Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... )
Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... )
Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... )
Request for computer help (non-traveller)
SSDS/T4 and Armor
Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... ) 
Re: Request for computer help (non-traveller) 
Re: Annual Maintenance & Starports
[T98#579] Amber Zones

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 17:56:36
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Annual maintainence and starports

>From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
>Subject: Annual Maintenance & Starports
>
>Hi All,
>
>Couple of quick questions.
>
>Does anyone have a Canon description of what exactly is 
>done during "annual maintenance"?
>

Analyse the lanthanum grid for hairline cracks, turn the fusion plant off
for rebalancing, replace all the bacteria in the life support ...

>Is it the sort of thing that say a 400t maintenance Ship 
>couldn't do to a 100t Xboat?  If not why not?

GM fiat thing, I think. The rules are deliberatly vague to either allow or
disallow it.

>
>Starports have been bugging me recently as having vague 
>descriptions. I'd like to think that you could build an installation 
>that was capable of doing annual maintenance on up to say 400t craft, 
>without having all the other things that an A or B class 
>starport is supposed to  have. I'm beginning to think that 
>a size indicator for the starport is a good idea. (e.g 
>Small Class A, or Large Class B, or Large Shipyard with 
>only small docks).

Optional fudge number one - ships under 1000 dtons count as 'small craft'
i.e. can be built at type B and have maintainence done at type C.

>Has anyone else put any thought into something like this already?

My personal method is to class starports as according to the pop code they
are designed to service - a pop 7 world with a type C starport would thus
be a C7 starport. It's ruling elite may have a class A port for it's own
use, so it would have A4 in the world notes.

Needless to say, a starport designed for a small population costs less.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 00:16:01 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump and Maneuver: IMTU (long)

Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:24:05 -0700, "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>

>Automation is a wonderful thing.  Starships have the capacity to virtually
>fly themselves

I don't allow this for roleplaying reasons.  Important tasks should
be handled by players, not the automatic systems.  I also don't
care to render all player ship skill irrelevant.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 03:30:41 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Annual Maintenance & Starports

At 05:58 PM 6/13/98 +1200, you wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>Couple of quick questions.
>
>Does anyone have a Canon description of what exactly is 
>done during "annual maintenance"?

Pull the engines completely off-line for thorough repairs.

Take down each computer for maintenance.

Drain fuel tanks, clean, and inspect for damage.

Close check of lanthanum grid for integrity.

Re-seal airlocks, test integrity of all air-tight compartments.

Repairs as needed.

Also, the ship's transponder log downloaded to Imperial authorities.  As
part of certification process, logs checked for obvious illegal activity
(violations of interdicted space, entry into Zhodani space, etc.)  Any
oddities in the record will need to be documented.
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 01:56:40 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: TU using Book2ish CT ship designs

In mail you write:

> How do you invade a world if the best ship you can bring is a 5ktn
> battleship with a 1ktn meson spinal and a couple of 100tn missile bays?
> The best mobile thing the defender can use is also 5ktn 2G, but he can
> have armed asteroid stations and starbases as big as he can build them.

If the system has an asteroid belt, or a planet with a the right sort
of ring system (rocky, not icy) you jump the invasion fleet there. 

The fleet will consist of a bunch of construction ships and ships to
defend them and the work area. 

You build *big* mass drivers, and start throwing rocks at the enemy.
You can easily get multi-ton rocks going 100s or even thousands of
kilometers a second. Any base they hit is toast. And a few properly
placed will make life uncomfortable on the planet (you have to be
careful there, unless you *don't* want to occupy the planet after you
beat them).

A 10 ton chunk of nickel-iron is only a bit over a meter across. (one
cubic meter of the stuff weighs about 8 tons). At 1000 km/s it will
release as much energy as a 1 megaton bomb on impact. 

You can get a *lot* of 10 ton chunks out of an asteroid a few km
across. And stealthing them is easy. No drive emissions, no powerplant.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 23:09:52 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Annual Maintenance & Starports

I had written,
> >Does anyone have a Canon description of what exactly is 
> >done during "annual maintenance"?

Douglas Berry replied: 
> Pull the engines completely off-line for thorough repairs.
> Drain fuel tanks, clean, and inspect for damage.
> Close check of lanthanum grid for integrity.

Agreed - these are "shut the ship down completely" tasks.

> Take down each computer for maintenance.
> Re-seal airlocks, test integrity of all air-tight
> compartments.
> Repairs as needed. 

These however should be ongoing tasks performed by the 
Ships engineer - If you're in town for a week, why isn't 
the engineer working on something?

> Also, the ship's transponder log downloaded to Imperial authorities.  As
> part of certification process, logs checked for obvious illegal activity
> (violations of interdicted space, entry into Zhodani space, etc.)  Any
> oddities in the record will need to be documented.

This bugs me. I'm not sure why. Partly I think because I 
don't believe there is a electronic log option that is 
foolproof, and partly because I don't see why it is any of 
the Imperium's business. If I get my maintenance done at an 
Imperial starport, then sure, they'll try going through my 
logs, but if it's not an imperial port (and I don't believe 
all of them are) then they may be out of luck. 

This is without addressing the dataprocessing needs of logging 
every ship in the empire, since I think that if they wanted 
to they could - though I don't think it would be foolproof, 
nor completely without false positives.

I also wonder about the over-all law level of the Imperium. 
At what law level does the state get to routinely monitor 
the activities of people unconnected with a criminal 
invesitgation? If Dulinor can make a case that he shouldn't 
have his mind read before going near the emperor, then I 
think there is a tradition that big brother has limits to 
it's authority to pry.

I also think that having an Imperium with a tradition of 
not over-regulating things has advantages from a 
roleplaying POV. Living in a police-state all the time can 
get a bit depressing.

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 23:15:58 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Annual maintainence and starports

Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> wrote
> Needless to say, a starport designed for a small
> population costs less. 

I tend to agree, though I would say "a starport designed to 
service a small number of ships costs less"

So, just to tie this in to that other interminable 
thread...
What does it cost to build a dock that can build one 
pirate ship at a time? 
What about do annual maintenance on one ship at a time?

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 02:13:24 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: JG and the IRS

William F. Hostman wrote:
> If Mr Bludsoe makes any moneys from any product, the IRS can sieze the
> moneys, and/or hold product and infrastructure for sale/auction in order to
> pay off the tax lien.
What did the guy do? Not pay his taxes? How long has this been going on?
- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 09:31:30 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Annual Maintenance & Starports 

> At 05:58 PM 6/13/98 +1200, you wrote:
> >Hi All,
> >
> >Couple of quick questions.
> >
> >Does anyone have a Canon description of what exactly is 
> >done during "annual maintenance"?
> 
> Pull the engines completely off-line for thorough repairs.
> 
> Take down each computer for maintenance.
> 
> Drain fuel tanks, clean, and inspect for damage.
> 
> Close check of lanthanum grid for integrity.
> 
> Re-seal airlocks, test integrity of all air-tight compartments.

Tune & ealign the 'jump point initiator', whateverthehell that is.  (grin)  
Takes a special test rig, big bucks.

Close check of the zuchai crystals for microflaws.

Check integrity of the fusion reactor's containment vessel, looking for stress 
cracks.  Check containment control circuitry & tune/realign as necessary.

> Repairs as needed.

I see the test equipment to be 'kindasorta' like the diagnostic computers for late model cars.  They cost a bunch to buy, a bit to teach how to hook up and run, and they nail you about 50 bucks for the privilege.  But it beats several hundred hours worth of poking & prodding around inside the drives, especially at union scale.  <grin>

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 09:51:10 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller and Musical Tastes 

> At 01:11 PM 6/12/98 -0400, Keven wrote:
> 
> >Heh.  Wait til you drop your PC's on a planet where the local classical
> music is based on something called 'country and western' when they're used
> to high energy technopunk.  <grin>
> 
> In Davis Weber's "Honor Harrington" series, the planet Grayson has just
> that.  They also are a good example of how to make a familiar society into
> something alien.

Where do you think I stole the idea?  <grin>
 
> Grayson first appears in "Honor of the Queen"

Fun place.  Standard atmosphere, slight 'taint' (heavy metals all over the place), charismatic dictator/self-perpetuating oligarchy, early stellar culture, and within spitting distance of a couple severely hostile powers.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:00:08 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Realistic pirate expenses

Greg Smith writes:

>I don't believe the ships would be readily saleable.  Perhaps to another 
>pirate, or a member of the band, but not probably on the open market, 
>without a great discount.  

Yeah, I agree that that is the most likely situation.
 
>I think your assumption is that he's only in it for the money, and that 
>if he could sell his ship for a good profit, then he could enjoy life.

Well, we all know that there are a lot of kooks out there. Cretainly
enough to provide all the pirates we would ever want. And I guess the
OTU is well equipped with multi-millionaires too. But how many crazy
multi-millionaires are there? The thing is, if piracy is_not_ a money-
making proposition, then you need someone who is not only more or less
crazy (easy enough), but who can also afford to indulge himself. Which
is IMO a whole other proposition. That's why I'm most impressed with
the proposed band of desperate mutineers with the hot starship that
can't be sold and can't make an honest living. Only, I don't think they
would be all that frequent.

>IMO, his drive is more than money.  Greed, a sense of machismo, the 
>thrill of the chase, the hunt, the kill, the beating of the system.  
>These all enter into the equation.  A pirate would be bored, bored, 
>bored if he just sold his ship and lived on the proceeds.  I think he 
>would turn pirate again after a while, maybe hijacking a ship and 
>starting again.... 

Well, just how easy do you think it is to hijack a ship?
 
>Granted.  But I'm meaning that you wouldn't pay life support if you are 
>living on a planet and only go catch a ship/cargo when you get bored or 
>when you need some cash or cash equivalents...

But that agument assumes that you can just take out your ship and bag a
brace of merchants whenever you feel like it. It dosen't address the
question of how easy it is for a pirate to find suitable prey and how
big his chances of capturing them are. You have to be more specific.
Where does the pirate lair? Where does he go to hunt? How long does he
have to wait before a merchant shows up? What are the chances that the
pirate will be allowed to hang around unmolested while he waits?

At the moment I consider the argument "He just goes out and captures a
ship" as more or less equivalent to "He just sneaks into Fort Knox and
pockets a couple of gold bars". It dosen't explain anything, it just
changes the question to "How the hell does he do that?" 

>BTW, what does it run the average "citizen" to live?  Hans, I know you've
>done those figures before, and you've sent them to me, but I can't remember 
>where I put them right now.

IMO it works out at an average of Cr10,000.

>Well, some of my assumptions interwoven in the above.  Planet based, for 
>sure.  Secure, mostly.  No mortgage on the ship.

I'm afraid that is too vague for me. Give me a typical example from the
Spinward Marches. What world he is based on, how did he get his ship and
crew, where does he go to find his prey, how does he capture it, and how
does he turn his capture into money?



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 07:34:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... )

In mail you write:

>> To be more reasonable, black globe generators should probably have a
>> temperature and emit black-body radiation, though that kind of limits their
>> value as uber-stealth devices.
>
> They absorb everything.  This would mean black body radiation, too.  Of 
> course, you could handwave this away as 'physics as wishful thinking'...

If they acted like a Langston Field, the energy hitting them is
converted to "heat" stored *in the field*. So once its ben beat on a
while it starts glowing as it tries to radiate the excess energy. The
more energy it has to radiate, the "hotter" the field is. And it takes
a bit of time for the energy to distribute itself thru the volume of
the field, that's why a laser hit or a fast missile can cause a *local*
"burn through" and only slag *part* of the ship.

It also means that the enemy has a damn good idea how close your field
is to failing, as it goes from red to orange to yellow to white. At
white you are in *deep* kimchee. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 07:42:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... )

In mail you write:

> High tech goodies usually have little problems like this, that we all agree
> to ignore, much like the causality problems produced by ump drives.

Have you *tried* to plot a "timelike" course using Traveller
technology? I have, and it's sufficiently *hard* that we can pretty
much ignore it. You need to be able to hit a fair fraction of c to make
it work. And even with thruster plates that's not easy.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 07:20:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... )

In mail you write:

> Keven R. Pittsinger writes:
>
>> How so?  CG and nuclear dampers wouldn't violate the laws since you
>> have to pump energy into them in order for it to work.  These are
>> *not* perpetual motion machines.  You can turn them on and off at
>> will and you *WILL* lose the energy you feed them while they're in
>> use.

> No, they violate conservation of energy because the amount of energy
> gained is greater than the amount of energy spent.  If you create a
> wheel with CG lifters strung in a circle around it, and turn the
> lifters on when they're on the side which is going up, off when on
> the side going down, and connect the wheel to a generator, you'll
> start producing more energy than you use when the rotation speed of
> the wheel exceeds about 10 meters/second.

Frankly, *this* one isn't bad. All you have to do is rule that you have
to feed energy to the CG to go up, and that the energy has to be >= the
change in potential energy. In most cases this is a pretty trivial
amount of energy compared with what a craft is already using.

> Similar problems occur for thruster plates

True. We worked out the equations for thruster plates that *didn't*
violate conservation of energy. They're interesting, but don't resemble
the performance of anything in Traveller *or* in any SF work I'm
familiar with. :-)

> (nuclear dampers are more complicated).

They only screw up physics if you allow them to be used for some weird
things. For example, if they merely alter the *rate* at which fission
and other weak force and strong force interactions take place, then you
can still supress the detonation of a fission based warhead (lower the
fission rate to something so slow that it can't maintain a chain
reaction) and you can also "clean up" fallout and radioactive
contamination (speed up decay until all the stuff has decayed).
Suppressing fusion is harder, but still doable by affecting *rates* of
interaction. 

If you work dampers this way, you eliminate the problems, and only add
a couple of extra limitations (such as a field can't both supress
fission *and* supress fusion at the same time). I rather like the extra
dimension that adds to combat. Do you kill their powerplant, or keep
the missile warheads from detonating. Pick *one*. :-)

You also get the ability to more conveniently generate power from *any*
radioactive material by accelerating the decay rate. Whic gives you the
opportunity to have folks grumbling about the idiots in the old days
burying all that *useful* nuclear waste in such hard to get at spots! 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 12:24:40 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Request for computer help (non-traveller)

Our network administration, displaying their usual high caliber of mental
agility[1], has decided that as part of deplaoying the new, 'upgraded'[2]
WAN, they must erase everyone's file server accounts. They have further
decreed that it is our responsibility, as employees, to preserve any data
that needs preserving.

Mind you, they still haven't relaxed their restrictions on hooking up any
external devices to the network, and they haven't installed any file
compression software, so the only medium I have to back up 30 megs of
files to is floppy disk. Which would be a pain, except that some of my
files are 2-3 meg Powerpoint presentations, which won't fit onto a single
floppy.

So, does anyone have anywhere I can ftp at least my presentations?  I'll
need the space for a week or so (depends on how long the 'upgrade' takes).


[1] Roughly equivalent to week-old roadkill, judging by performance over
the past year.

[2] From context, we believe that "upgraded" means "we really hope it will
function this time, but we're calling it an upgrade because that will look
better in our performance review".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:14:40 EDT
From: Qstor@aol.com
Subject: SSDS/T4 and Armor

I didn't get how to figure out structure and armor on the SSDS system...the
tables looked off to me...Any hints? :)

Mike

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 14:03:03 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... ) 

> In mail you write:
> 
> > High tech goodies usually have little problems like this, that we all agree
> > to ignore, much like the causality problems produced by ump drives.
> 
> Have you *tried* to plot a "timelike" course using Traveller
> technology? I have, and it's sufficiently *hard* that we can pretty
> much ignore it. You need to be able to hit a fair fraction of c to make
> it work. And even with thruster plates that's not easy.

How can there be causuality effects from jump drives?  Lightspeed isn't being violated, it's being sidestepped.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 14:11:20 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Request for computer help (non-traveller) 

> Mind you, they still haven't relaxed their restrictions on hooking up any
> external devices to the network, and they haven't installed any file
> compression software, so the only medium I have to back up 30 megs of
> files to is floppy disk. Which would be a pain, except that some of my
> files are 2-3 meg Powerpoint presentations, which won't fit onto a single
> floppy.

No tape backup widgets????

> [1] Roughly equivalent to week-old roadkill, judging by performance over
> the past year.

Sounds like my old boss.

> [2] From context, we believe that "upgraded" means "we really hope it will
> function this time, but we're calling it an upgrade because that will look
> better in our performance review".

Sounds like my ISP.  <sigh>  They totally khested up the 'move & upgrade'.  I 
got unsubscribed from my usual half-dozen mailing lists about 4 times since 
Thursday due to bounces while the techies were 'finetuning' the node.  Course, 
for some bizzareassed reason, they like running a full news feed on their own 
hardware, so the ng's were out for a day, too.  <sigh>

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 12:38:12 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Annual Maintenance & Starports

At 11:09 PM 6/13/98 +1200, you wrote:
>I had written,
>> >Does anyone have a Canon description of what exactly is 
>> >done during "annual maintenance"?
>
>Douglas Berry replied: 

>> Take down each computer for maintenance.
>> Re-seal airlocks, test integrity of all air-tight
>> compartments.
>> Repairs as needed. 
>
>These however should be ongoing tasks performed by the 
>Ships engineer - If you're in town for a week, why isn't 
>the engineer working on something?

The idea is that you render the airlocks useless while you redo each seal.
Also, the engineer will keep on top of major leaks, this is a check for
tiny leaks that might be missed for months.  Also, the repairs are the type
that need heavy cranes and ripping the drives apart.  No Captain wants to
come back with a hot cargo and find his jump drive in 12,743 separate
pieces while the engineer tries to run down that fluctuation.

>> Also, the ship's transponder log downloaded to Imperial authorities.  As
>> part of certification process, logs checked for obvious illegal activity
>> (violations of interdicted space, entry into Zhodani space, etc.)  Any
>> oddities in the record will need to be documented.
>
>This bugs me. I'm not sure why. Partly I think because I 
>don't believe there is a electronic log option that is 
>foolproof, and partly because I don't see why it is any of 
>the Imperium's business. If I get my maintenance done at an 
>Imperial starport, then sure, they'll try going through my 
>logs, but if it's not an imperial port (and I don't believe 
>all of them are) then they may be out of luck. 

I see this as a price of doing business in the Imperium.  They want to
track trade patterns, and make sure that smuggling to interdicted worlds is
kept to a minimum.

Let's say you had been jumped by pirates and had turned your transponder
off to avoid being a beacon for missiles.  The log would show that; and the
accompanying paperwork would list the circumstances.  The official might
wander by to check on the story, either because he doesn't believe it or is
bored and could us a good tale.

Think of it as the Imperial version of truck scales.. a way to make sure
that all these ships are operating safely.

>This is without addressing the dataprocessing needs of logging 
>every ship in the empire, since I think that if they wanted 
>to they could - though I don't think it would be foolproof, 
>nor completely without false positives.

Think of the IRS.  They process hundreds of millions of tax forms every
year.  Some of those set off flags for bad certain reasons, some are
flagged for criminal investigation, and some are chosen at random for
audits.  Most merchants can go an entire career without ever hauling all
their ship records down to the office to justify every jump they've made in
the last year, but a pattern of suspicious activity will get some attention.

>I also wonder about the over-all law level of the Imperium. 
>At what law level does the state get to routinely monitor 
>the activities of people unconnected with a criminal 
>invesitgation? If Dulinor can make a case that he shouldn't 
>have his mind read before going near the emperor, then I 
>think there is a tradition that big brother has limits to 
>it's authority to pry.

Simple, if you don't want to file the paperwork, don't fly a ship.
Long-haul truckers in the US have to log every hour they are on the road,
and face heavy fines for driving to long.  For 99% of the merchant traffic,
the filing is a formality.  The other 1% usually has a good reason for what
they did.

>I also think that having an Imperium with a tradition of 
>not over-regulating things has advantages from a 
>roleplaying POV. Living in a police-state all the time can 
>get a bit depressing.

Not a police state, just making sure that the ships that travel the space
between the worlds are safe and operated by competent staff.
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 22:25:06 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T98#579] Amber Zones

On Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:46:02 -0400, "Anson Betts"
<Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

>I was just reading in the MT Ref's manual about amber zones, what are the
>criteria for making a world an amber zone?

>War? I don't think so, unless it's global or nuclear (in which case it'll be
>over in a couple of hours). Look at earth today, we have numerous wars going
>on but it's still safe to visit most countries.

Global war would be a possibility - but how about a long-running
war where the situation has gotten to the point of "if you're
able-bodied, and on planet, and we can get you, you're drafted"?

Post-collapse anarchy with widespread brush battles?

>Disease? Remember Ebola? It didn't make the whole planet un-safe, just a
>portion of it dangerous. I wonder if AIDS could be considered lethal enough
>to stop visitors, it's certainly lethal and communicable...

Influenza, 1918-1920 style?  Bubonic Plague, circa 1100-1300 AD?

Post-collapse anarchy with no public health controls?

>Famine? Hell this would make the planet ripe for trade, just bring em food
>and they'll love you.

Post-collapse anarchy with rioting and cannibalism?

>Pestilence? Anything pestile enough to make an amber zone would have chewed
>the colonists long ago.

See disease, above.

>Anyone else got any ideas?

Excessively oppressive government practices?

Hazardous natural conditions (heavy tectonic activity, continuous
electrical storms/sandstorms, high "background" radiation,
extremes of gravity or climate)?

Politics (local or Imperial)?
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #582
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Saturday, June 13 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 583



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

[T98#579] Viable Populations
Re: Starbases
Re: Black Globes
Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... )
Re: Trading Question; What is Superdense?
Re: Trading Question; What is Superdense?
Re: Selling a starship
Re: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka
Re: Trading Question; What is Superdense?
Re: brown dwarfs
Re: brown dwarfs
Re: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 22:25:10 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T98#579] Viable Populations

On Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:46:02 -0400, "Anson Betts"
<Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

>I'm probably going to get killed for this but,

>In a book I read a while back, Dangerous Visions I think it was, there was a
>story about a planet where incest was the norm. They mentioned something
>about breeding cattle and that you don't get genetic mutations from breeding
>related cattle, in fact if there's a preferred trait then you breed them
>together to get the desired trait in the offspring.
>Any Ranchers out there who can set me right?

I'm not a rancher, but ISTR reading about this - yes, it's done -
but they also "cull" the herds, destroying any animals showing
undesirable traits, and at the very least taking out of the
breeding pool those animals that _don't_ show the desirable
traits.

I think it would take a certain kind of ruthlessness for humans
to do this to humans, and I'm not sure I'd want to be part of a
society that had that kind of ruthlessness.  OTOH, our society,
globally, may have become overly sensitized to this because it
has been done in the past, with horrific results.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 14:56:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starbases

In mail you write:

>>> Just one little problem here, did you know that JG's stuff cannot
>>> be sold in the US.  Walt Bludsoe still "owes" the IRS lots & lots
>>> of cash.  So how are they selling JG product?

>> Oh please.

> Then, why was the last time I talked to Bob Bludsoe, his father still
> cannot sell the stuff becuase of the IRS?

Easy. If *he* owes the IRS money, that affects things that *he* owns.
But Judges Guild was already paid for the stuff that was sent out to
distributors. And the distributors were paid for the stuff that went
out to stores. And the stores were paid for stuff that was purchased by
gamers. 

So all of those copies are available for sale and the IRS has nothing
to say about it.

BTW, I *seriously* doubt that the IRS has said that he can't sell
anything that he's got. *I* owe the IRS back taxes. And they would
*love* for me to be able to sell some stuff. I'd just have to send them
the money (well, most of it). 

So if he's not selling, it's because he doesn't want to give the IRS
all the money. Or, there's a slight possibility that the IRS thinks
he's trying to sell them too cheaply. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 15:11:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Black Globes

In mail you write:

> ObTrav: this has probably been covered before, but just how much
> heat can a Traveller starship withstand? If I'm slingshotting around the
> local star to get to 100d, how close is too close?

Actually, you have to worry about how much heat the *crew* can stand.
Long before the structure of even the sort of spacecraft *we* build
would be in danger from the heat, the craft would be too hot for the
crew. 

The hull and most of the structure can proably handle 1000 C or more.
Various items inside the ship won't do so well. Humans *can* survive
air temperatures of 500 F if they are naked and it's the *air* that's
that hot (several of the volunteers in the experiment that established
this got burns under sweatbands they were wearing!). But since the
folks on the ship will be wearing clothing *and* in contact with at
least *some* part of the ship, they'd get contact burns long before
the air got that hot.

So you need to know three things. How fast the ship picks up heat
(joules/sec) and how fast it can *radiate* the heat (also joules/sec).
And how much heat it produces on its own. As soon as heat produced
inside and heat absorbed exceed the amount the ship can radiate, the
ship's temp will go up.

And it'll keep climbing until the non-radiator sections of the side of
the hull *away* from the star are hot enough to radiate away the
excess energy. 

So you either avoid making close passes around stars or you do it *fast
and spend hours cooling off afterwards.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 17:33:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... )

Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> wrote: 

>For a thruster plate, adding a fuel requirement of 0.00012 liters LHyd/kN/
>hour (0.02 liters/week) turns a thruster plate into a matter converter 
>instead -- this corresponds to light-speed emission of the fuel.  This 
>has the side effect that if you assume the typical 100 dt ship masses 500 
tons and is capable of 1 G, it needs 1% of its tonnage to be hydrogen fuel 
>to have an endurance of one week (which _nicely_ matches the CT 
>fuel requirements, though in CT they were for the power plant, not 
the drive).

<snip>

>Grumble...make this kilograms instead.  0.28 liters/week.

This sounds like an *excellent* solution to the problem.  Since thrusters
can't be used as weapons I'd say their output is something like neutrinos
or gravitons.  Can anyone check the above math for me and see if this
fueld consumption actually works? 

As for CG, I just assume that CG thrust is directly proportional to the
planets gravity, which explains the 10 diameter limit, at 10 diameters the
thrust is down to 1/400 of the thurst at the surface (ie pretty puny). 
The way I see CG working, it doesn't alter the acceleration of gravity,
merely the direction.  An air raft can fall up, down, forward, or any any
other direction desired. 

Comments?


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:35:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Trading Question; What is Superdense?

In mail you write:

>>Unrefined or partly refined minerals from worlds with no refining at all I
>>think would be rare.  Anyone with a bit of business sense can see the
>>advantage of refining before shipping I think.
> Unless you have a low tech planet who are good at digging the iridium ore
> from the ground but lack the highly industrialised processes to refine it.
> It isn't a simple as just importing a refinery somewhere in the outback.
> There are a whole ream of tiertiary industries that have to be present to
> support any involved industrial process.
> I wouldn't rule out ore.

A lot of "ores" are processed "on site" even in primitive areas here on
Earth. 

>>Petroleum has value well after it's value as a fuel is no more.
> But it will only occur on planets who have had life for millions of years.
> I don't think that's too common in the canonical traveller universe. In my
> own game there are none, and you can't get petroleum naturally anywhere. It
> is still a useful and necessary commodity, and "cracking stations" existing
> in orbit around gas giants. Taking methane and cracking it up to longer
> length carbon chains (the opposite of refining). Plastic is used on luxary
> goods due to its expense and rarity.

Regardless of how one feels about the "extraterrestrial origin" theory
for petroleum, carbonaceus chondrites will supply similar long chain
raw materials. So plastics won't be *that* rare.

>>Most construction would try to use indigenous materials to save on cost.
>>This means to me that concrete or wood will not be on the "most imported"
>>list.
> Hey, look at just a sample of planets. How many of them have the
> gravity-atmosphere-hydrosphere mix likely to produce forests? Not many.
> Wood, though, is a renewable resource. The planets that are able to support
> forests are often under inhabited, by Earth standards. It could be that
> vast stretches are just forest that get harvested every decade or so.
> (Imagine a huge, high-tech combine harvester scything through the woods!)

We're beginning to learn that clear cutting is *not* the best way to
manage forests. And given things like battle dress, it'd be quite
possible to build an oversized "Paul Bunyan" suit that'd let a logger
walk in with minimal disruption, cut down a specific tree and and hook
it to the cable from the air raft. 

That way you get nice trees, all *big* (which mills would prefer to
handle), and on a forest the size of what we used to have in many parts
of the world, you could easily harvest *lots* of trees, and only
harvest the biggest in a given area every 20 or 30 years. But by
selectively harvesting, you'd be getting trees that were more like 100
years old. 

> Concrete, well, you just need rock. Mind you, there was this guy from
> Atlanta who visited me in Ireland and was amazed at the wealth of the
> farmers as they could all have stone walls. Eventually I worked out that
> there just aren't any quarries near Atlanta and raw rock is expensive and,
> thus, fashionable. Could be planets like that.

Actually, that's a case of byproduct utilization. A *non* farmer would
have to pay for stone that was quarried or otherwise dug up. But in
places like Ireland and New England, there are a lot of rocks mixed in
with the soil. And every winter, frost forces them a bit closer to the
surface. So every year when you plow, you turn up new rocks. So you
take the rocks to the nearest edge of the field and pile them there.
After a few centuries, you have a nice rock wall around the field!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:50:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Trading Question; What is Superdense?

In mail you write:

> Right, so a speculative trade table may *not* need to weight in favor of
> heavily produced products, since the table is intended to represent small
> lots which are not being regularly shipped by a major line, or which are
> surplus to the line.

I just had a truly *evil* thought. Let's say there's some foodstuff or
drink that is only shipped in a limited area (or maybe only produced on
one planet and note exported for some reason). Call it Romulan Ale. Now
picture some patron with more money than sense who wants to serve it at
a *big* party he's going to throw next month. So he approaches the
group with an offer. He wants them to go and pick up a load of the
stuff, and get to him in time for the party. And offers a truly huge
bonus if they pull it off. 

Of course, at some point, the local customs folks will get involved,
and the players will be trying to stay (literally!) one jump ahead of them.

This *should* sound familiar. :-) It's the plot of "Smokey and the
Bandit" converted to Traveller. But will the players catch on in time? :-)

> I wouldn't rule it out in certian circumstances, but if you have a source
> of ore, why not bring in the refining equipment to convert it to smaller
> tonnage?

Sometimes a needed material isn't available locally. For example,
bauxite gets shipped instead of aluminum, because it's cheaper to pay
ship the (refined!) bauxite to where electricity is cheap than to
produce aluminum on site.

Likewise iron ore gets shipped because you need a lot of coal, and the
two are rarely found together. Traveller will likely get iron from
asteroids and have to use *very* different means of processing it.

But a lot of refining techniques require *enormous* amounts of water.
Of course, it takes lots of water on the planet to produce most types
of ore, too. 

> The one reference I could find put the iron content of ore at 58% to 59%.
> Processing this seemed to be a mostly magnetic and crushing operation to
> convert to export-grade ore.  After that we get into coking and blast
> furnaces, or alternate technologies just being explored (electrolysis,
> plasma seperation, etc) to purify the iron.  I see no reason not to have
> these operations moved to the site of the mining at high tech levels
> assuming there are no impediments like a hostile local government.  The
> one-time cost of constructing and starting up the plant is balanced by
> saving in 40% of the shipping costs over the life of the mine.

Actually, it turns out that *iron* ore depends on life! The magnetite
crystals were produced by bacteria in the days before Earth had an
oxygen atmosphere. They produced energy by reducing the iron from
compounds in solution. Several other metal ores (and some sulfur
deposits!) are also thought to be produced by this sort of thing. So
minable ores may be rarer than we expect.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 17:08:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Selling a starship

In mail you write:

> At 04:35 PM 6/10/98 +0200, you wrote:
>
>>Yes. The first time you recieve a starship as a benefit you get it with 40
>>years of payments still due. For every time you recieve it again you get
>>10 years' payments knocked off. If you are lucky enough to recieve it 5
>>times, you own a 40 year old ship outright. And if he gets it 6 times I
>>suppose he'd have an additional ship (with 40 years' payments due)...
>
> I always allowed improvements.. like weaponry, or newer drives.

I think it'd make more sense to knock 10 years off the age of the ship
for each ship benefit above 5. Thus:

 1: new ship, 40 years of payments
 2: 10 year old ship, 30 years of payments
 3: 20 year old ship, 20 years of payments
 4: 30 year old ship, 10 years of payments
 5: 40 year old ship, no payments
 6: 30 year old ship, no payments
 7: 20 year old ship, no payments
 8: 10 year old ship, no payments
 9: new ship, no payments.

BTW, I don't believe that it is *possible* to get 9 rolls of "ship" on
the mustering out tables :-)

I'm too tired to work out the required formula, but I think the above
table can be extrapolate in such a way as to allow a 1 benefit to get
an *80* year old ship with no payments, and other interesting
possibilities. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 17:27:38 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka

In mail you write:

> The kicker is that not one of those planets had ever had humans living
> on it for the last few million years or so, or had had close contact
> with terrestrial mammalian immune systems for hundreds of millions
> more...
>
> Vilani probably classified planets where people sickened and died as
> uninhabitable. This opens up _lots_ of real estate for the Terrans to
> take in the old Ziru Sirka...once humans figured out _why_ all those
> worlds were red zoned. Imagine the morale collapse when these upstarts
> come barging in from terra and promptly settle and thrive in places that
> killed your people in droves...

One thing that the Vilani *would* be familiar with, but that might
"catch" the Terrans at first is that they could be planets red-zoned
not for diseases, but for lacking important trace elements. 

I just read Niven's "Destiny's Road" which has a colony that that
barely avoided that fate, I won't spoil the plot, but the short version
of the problem is that the planet is old and not very tectonically
active. So there's little recycling of elements from the seabottom to
the ecosystem. And the local lifeforms don't use potassium, except the
way some earth orgnisms use selenium, as a poison to deter critters
from eating them. One such critter is a type of plankton. So there's
almost no potassium in the seawater or on land, because these plankton
have been sequestering it, and then sinking to the bottom of the ocean
when they die. And it's a *deep* ocean.

Humans don't do well without potassium. And it's not a deficiency
disease that were are familiar with on earth. Oops. Whereas the Ziru
Sirka are likely familar with a *lot* of defieciency diseases, as the
nutrients they get are quite different from what we evolved with, and
they will be familiar with ones we aren't.

Also, you can have the opposite problem. A planet with lots of some
obscure trace element that has long term toxicity. Asimov did this once
with a planet with high amounts of berylium. Since berylium compounds
are rather nasty, there's a major effort to find substitutes for it.
And he just envisioned a time in the future when *why* berylium wasn't
used had been forgotten. 

So there are things that we might overlook that the Vilani wouldn't.
Alas for the vilani, neither trace element deficiency nor trace element
poisoning are *contagious*.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 15:38:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Trading Question; What is Superdense?

In mail you write:

> Unrefined or partly refined minerals from worlds with no refining at all I
> think would be rare.  Anyone with a bit of business sense can see the
> advantage of refining before shipping I think.  So 'refined' mineral
> resources would be the norm, although these materials may be in a state
> midway between the harvested form and the final product (plastic sheets,
> refined iron ore).

Actually, even now it's advantageous to ship stuff that's nowhere
*near* as far along as your "plastic sheets". But in other cases it
won't be.

For "ores", things like bauxite are actually already *very* refined. It
takes several steps to get bauxite from the clay the start with. Going
the final step of converting it to aluminum takes *lots* of
electricity, so it's worthwhile to ship it to places where electric
power is cheaper. In Traveller, power is *inherently* cheaper. So the
bauxite will be reduced to aluminum at the mine. So you'll be shipping
aluminum ingots. 

Given cheap fusion power, I suspect that *most* metal ores will be
reduced to metal before shipping. But since the reduction will be
primarily electrical, the resulting ingots of a few metals will be
*very* different from what we are used to. The primary example would be
iron. The ingots would have essentially *no* carbon content, so they'd
be a lot different than the sort of iron we are used to. To make steel
they'd have to *add* carbon. Even more for things like wrought iron and
cast iron. Also, given the easy accessibility of nickel-iron asteroids,
I excpect that iron mining on planets would be limited to low tech
worlds producing for local contstruction.

For stuff like plastics, you either ship the chemicals it's made from,
or you ship the "uncured resin". In both casses you'll be dealing with
somewhat messy to very nasty liquids (and in a few cases, gases). It's
*much* easier to ship a tank of acrylic resin than a bunch of polester
cloth. Ditto for most other plastics. The only time you'll be shipping
plastic "stock" is to places that don't have to tech level or
industrial base to convert the resins to finished goods.

> Petroleum has value well after it's value as a fuel is no more.  Solvents,
> plastics, lubricants, etc etc.  And I seem to recall that Petroleum is a
> biproduct of vegitation, and so requires a (relatively) habitable planet
> (or previously habitable planet) to be present.  This means to me that not
> any planet will have petroleum, leading to it being a valuable trading
> commodity, either raw (partly refined) or finished.

Coal is definitely a by-product of vegetation. But it's still not
certain that the same is true for petroleum. There's a minority theory
that still hasn't been disproven to the effect that the petroleum
deposits are what's left of carbonaceus chondrites and the like and
date back to the *formation* of the planet. 

Even if this theory *is* wrong, chondrites *will* be almost as useful
as petroleum. Especially when you consider that what some wells produce
is essentially asphalt (road tar)! 

And icy bodies from the farther reaches of systems will be processed
not just because the water is useful in space, but because methane and
ammonia are essential starting points for a *lot* of chemical
processes. For example, modern gunpowder starts out as synthetic
ammonia! (plus other stuff). A lot of organic chemistry can use methane
as a starting point.

Some systems may not have enough icy bodies in the outer system to be
worth going after. So methane and ammonia tankers may visit them.

> Most construction would try to use indigenous materials to save on cost.
> This means to me that concrete or wood will not be on the "most imported"
> list.

Concrete won't. Cement might be, if the planet doesn't have the right
sort of atmosphere or hydrosphere. Cement is what you mix with sand,
gravel and water to *make* concrete. You grind several minerals rather
fine and then roast the mixture. One of the critical minerals is
limestione, which is a byproduct of *sea life* (calcium carbonate
skeletons of sealife settling to the bottom as sediment, and then
getting turned to rock).

Also, wood and even stone *will* be shipped. We've got lots of
perfectly good stone in our state (Oregon) much less in the US. Yet the
new Federal Courthouse uses *Italian* marble. Why? Because it's
considered more "beautiful" than anything native. And many countries
import exotic woods and the like. Ebony, mahogany, etc. 

So you'll have the "luxury" and "fine goods" trade in even "raw"
materials. Worlds with some types of atmosphere may produce some
wonderful types of rock that look *really* nice. Even if you have to
coat the finished wall/tabletop/whatever with plastic to protect it
from normal atmosphere, there'd be a market. 

And on the world's without limestone, *marble* will be equally
non-existent. So it'll get imported for fancy stuff. Heck, even things
like *granite* come in enough varieties that some may be worth shipping.

Some of the low tech/low pop worlds with decent atmospheres may be
logging camps (but with more care about renewal harvesting practices).
Or be like the Hudson's Bay Company and be trappers/hunters for furs
(or even for medically useful animal parts). 

And there will be drugs and spices to be found. These also don't
require high tech or high pop to harvest. A lot of folks who don't
*like* "crowds" or high tech or otherwise "don't fit in" would likely
emigrate to this sort of planet and enjoy living by hunting, trapping,
or gathering plants in the forests/grasslands/swamps/whatever. 

Mind you, these folks probably have a radio that can reach to the port
(for emergencies) and can get an air-raft for med-evac if they are
seriously injured. And likely have home entertainment cemters too. But
they *live* off the land, and sell the stuff that gets exported so the
can have these "luxuries". 

"That a new Disaster Area video?"
"Yep"
"Ok, I'll give you 5 ounces of heavenspice for it."
"10"
"6"
"9"
"You have any idea how long it takes to collect this?! 7, and that's my
last offer..."
"7 and a half, and throw in that Squink pelt."
"Damn robber...." <hands over the spice and pelt> 

:-)

And yes, they *could* sell the stuff the gather and then pay cash. But
the type of person who likes that sort of like tends to prefer
haggling. So the storekeepers will accomodate them. Besides, by not
having prices posted, they can more easily "skin" visiting starship
crews. :-)

Oh yeah, while you can't feed a planet on imported food, you *can*
supplement their diets. For example, you'll note that fruits tend to be
imported from long distance with a *far* greater frequency than
vegetables. That's because fruits tend to have more "taste appeal", and
that due to the way most ripen, they'll ship better. 

But foods tend to be lighter than most raw materials. So that makes
foods, softwoods, and especially natural fibers ideal for "topping
off". They're also worth shipping if you have a small, valuable cargo,
and want something cheap to fill up the hold. 

So you'll have batches of offworld fruits and veggies showing up on
ships and winding up on the shelves in the larger stores. If enough
folks like them, they may actually wind up being worth shipping in and
of themselves. At least until someone figures out how to cultivate them
on planet. 

Traders *live* for that sort of opportunity. Create a new market and
serve it until the big boys get interested and buy you out (it's
generally easier to buy a Free Trader's contact to supply such things
than to waste time causing "accidents", you might screw up the market
for the goods that way). Then you go looking for a new opportunity.

Thus, you will see some *strange* stuff gettiing shipped. Mostly due to
things like some trader needing to get rid of that last 1000 credits of
local currency before he lifts (*Never* take local currency off planet.
By the time you get back the stuff may be worthless, and paying to
change Imperial credits into local and then back again is *stupid*
because there's a "service charge" each time).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 18:03:33 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: brown dwarfs

In mail you write:

>>suggests that about half of every 2,000 stellar points of
>>light in the Milky Way
>>galaxy may, in fact, be these L dwarfs, he said. 
> (Although it's also consistent with a much smaller fraction being
> L/brown dwarfs, though; the uncertainties are big. Note that these
> aren't fundamentally a new *discovery* so much as an ackowledgment
> that we finally have enough brown dwarfs that we need a way of 
> classifying them.
>
> (I was at the AAS talking to Neill and Davy this afternoon...)

Great. Want to give us Traveller stats for type L stars of various
ages? :-)

BTW, I was wondering about the "4.5 million degrees" that was mentioned
in the article. Is that *core* temp? Or corona temp? It sure as hell
can't be *surface* temp!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 18:06:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: brown dwarfs

In mail you write:

> Bruce Alan Macintosh writes:
>> (Although it's also consistent with a much smaller fraction being
>> L/brown dwarfs, though; the uncertainties are big. Note that these
>> aren't fundamentally a new *discovery* so much as an ackowledgment
>> that we finally have enough brown dwarfs that we need a way of 
>> classifying them.
>
> Incidentally, is '1/3 the mass of the sun, with a diameter close to
> jupiter' an error?  That's sounds more like a white dwarf, 1/3 solar
> mass is enough to ignite as an M class star.

A white dwarf is more like a few *dozen* miles across IIRC. Jupiter is
near the maximum size for a non-star. You add mass to a body like
jupiter and it starts getting *smaller, because the core goes
degenerate, and thus takes up a *lot* less space. It's not until the
mass gets high enough to sustain hydrogen fusion at the core that the
body expands again (due to photon pressure).

So the maximum mass for a type L *would* be just a hair under that
required to ignite as a M dwarf. 

Wouldn't *that* be something to be close too. I wonder how long it'd
take from the start of fusion until the star starts expanding? 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 17:40:50 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka

In mail you write:

> 1. infectious "things"
>   Things that normally don't bother most people, but due to weird immune
> systems, happen occasionally, like fungal infections. Most fungal
> infections are restricted to the skin, but I believe that really rarely
> they can do things like take up residence in the spine or other odd
> places and cause problems. It is conceivable that a fungus compatible
> with the Vilani could exist away from Earth.

Fungal problems (and the related things like "yeast infections" are
rather different than bacterial infections. The fungus/yeast is using
you as a food source, in the sense of it's not really "aware" that you
are even alive. It just treats you like another source of food. That's
why they tend to be external or restricted to areas where the body's
immune system doesn't have free access (like the brain and spinal
cord). That's because they are generally "easy meat" for the immune
system.

Fungi are somewhat more likely to be able to attack off-worlders
because they are in general looking for "simple organics" or complex
organics they can break down. So they aren't as likely to be affected
by biological differences.

> 2. bacterial infections
>  Some microbacterial organism takes up residence in you. Treatment is
> fairly straightforward, via antibiotics. The Vilani might be more prone
> to these than Terrans due to having generally weaker immune systems, but
> it's not like the Terran immune system is so great at dealing with these
> either (Gardia - sp? - whacks more than a few campers each year).

Giardia is a parasite, IIRC. That is, it's multicellular. 

Bacteria "know" that they are feeding on something that will fight
back. So they have various defenses, such as secreting toxins (which
are what tend to make use sick). In other cases, like gangrene, you are
back to the fungal model of something eating stuff where the immune
system isn't working well.

So we could get *some* bacterial infections along the gangrene model,
but more normal infectious bacterial diseases are unlikely as they
won't have the right defenses, and will not be able to find the sort of
cells they normally prey on. They are as apt to *starve* in a human
body as to be recognized as foreign and removed!

> 3. viral infections
>  It's difficult to imagine human-compatible viruses arising outside of
> an environment like Terra, where there are lots of potential, mostly
> genetically similar/compatible hosts. Chances are the Vilani have never
> encountered a serious virus and if they had, chances are they just nuked
> the planet into one big cue ball. They may have encountered viruses on
> minor human homeworlds, but the locals probably also had a cure or
> treatment of some sort. This category includes things like (and please,
> correct me if I'm wrong) plagues, influenza, AIDS/HIV and various poxes.
> Immunity or susceptibility to these diseases is sometimes genetic
> (referring to recent discoveries finding that some people are
> genetically immune to HIV)

Actually, we can't cure *any* viral disease. Zip, none, nada. We know
how to *prevent* them by vaccinating, but that depends on finding a way
to introduce something into the body that will sensitive the immune
system to the virus, but *not* give us the disease.

But once you *get* a viral infection, all we can do is provide
supportive care. We are *trying* to find things that'll destroy virus
without killing the patient, but it's hard.

You see, viruses aren't "alive". Instead, they are chunks of genetic
code sometimes with a protective protien coat. What happens is that
when they contact a cell, they get inside, and like a virus program on
a computer, they hijaak the cell's machinery and turn it from producing
the things it normally does to producing more virus. 

So the only time you can get *at* a virus is while it's outside a cell,
and at that time it isn't *doing* anything. 

But *because* of the way they have to be able to fool the cell into
thinking that they are part of it's normal "programming" they tend to
be very specific. 

Oddly, this doesn't mean that they can't cross species. But they can
only cross to species that use the same "key" that they imitate. So the
flu can cross between humans, some birds and pigs. It can't infect
rabbits, or lizards. 

But on another planet the odds are *definitely* against compatible
viruses.

> 4. other infections things
>  Like mad cow disease, which is, as I understand it, not even up at the
> virus level, but more like a really nasty protein or somesuch. These are
> usually difficult to transmit and are the best cure is to avoid getting
> into the transmission path of the disease.

If they are correct, these are caused by prions, which are an odd sort
of protein that can self replicate give the right conditions (which are
found inside some parts of a living body). 

These are a weirdy. Prions might exist on other planets that could
infect us. As you note, it'd be hard to get infected, but it's
definitely *possible*. But it'd be a weird case.

So by my figuring, #1 is fairly likely, but pretty easy to treat. #2 is
less likely, but treatable *if* you are familiar with it.

#3 and #4 are pretty unlikely. In the rare cases where they occur, you
may have *real* trouble.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #583
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, June 14 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 584



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Trading Questions
Disease and the Fall of the Ziru Sirka
Re: TU using Book2ish CT ship designs
Re: Viable Populations
Re: Viable Populations
Re: *New* technology for the uninformed
Re: Jump exit points
Re: Jump exit points
Re: Amber Zones
Re: Jump exit points
Re: Viable population (was Re: Distinguishing the Vilani)
Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music.
Re: brown dwarfs
Re: How diseases work (was Re: Disease and the fall...)
Pre-contact Terra, pt. II
Re: Annual Maintenance & Starports 
Re: JG and the IRS

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 23:16:07 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Trading Questions

Leonard Erikson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Actually, that's a case of byproduct utilization. A *non* farmer would
have to pay for stone that was quarried or otherwise dug up. But in
places like Ireland and New England, there are a lot of rocks mixed in
with the soil. And every winter, frost forces them a bit closer to the
surface. So every year when you plow, you turn up new rocks. So you
take the rocks to the nearest edge of the field and pile them there.
After a few centuries, you have a nice rock wall around the field!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There are farmers in Georgia as well. Georgia's geology, if I've heard
correctly, is more silt/clay than Ireland for most of it's area - not as
much stone in the soil, so after a few centuries the Georgia farmer
still has high-maintenance wooden fences around his fields - except
the wealthy farmer, who paid a lot of money to have good stone shipped
in from further inland. Thus stone walls seen as a sign of wealth.

ObTrav: And I know this is obvious, _but_: the useless on one world
can be gold on the next. A TL7 world might pay you to ship those
nasty kegs of nuclear waste off-planet, the TL14 society next door
might happily pay you top dollar for your cargo of rare transnuclear
compounds. One man's rocks is another man's building materials...


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 23:48:42 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Disease and the Fall of the Ziru Sirka

Here's another nasty thing to worry about when landing on a new
planet, cribbed from some deaths reported in Frederick Pohl's
_Gateway_: Allergies. There are some people on Earth who are
deathly allergic to honeybee stings, seafood, chocolate, a whole
list of things. The symptoms can be horrific and quickly fatal, as 
airways swell up to the point of closure, or entire body systems shut
down.

In _Gateway_, some explorers came back to their lander just fine.
Within minutes they were itchy. Then their lungs started producing
fluid, then they gurgled themselves to death. Their bodies were, quite
simply, massively allergic to some spore, dust composition, or other
item in the environment. The mother ship abandoned the lander
and made a note not to come back.

Allergens could easily affect humans entering a non-terran environment,
and (since it isn't usually a living organism) could easily be missed
by any kind of scanning gear - the gear is looking for bacteria, fungi and
viruses.

Here's an idea, what with all the mass climate change El Nino stuff
we've been seeing: planet is colonized, a large percentage of the
original colonists suffer frequent flu and cold symptoms. A rash of
Sudden Infant Death syndrome cases amongst infants born during the
first few years of the colony cause concern, but seem to taper off.
Over the next few decades, the colony grows and slowly starts to
develop offworld trade - since it is so undeveloped, few traders go
far beyond the well-developed startown.

Then a climactic change occurs, part of a long-term cycle. An allergen
that was always present in low levels (and caused the original colonists
some trouble before they became acclimated to it) suddenly rockets to
massive levels. Most of the colonists are immune. All the offworlder
scientists at the Imperial Ecological Field Station have an itchy throat
one night, die horribly the next. The Impy Marines at the Government
House die gurgling, while the Governor (been there twenty years)
watches in terror. Perhaps the Governor notices that all the deaths
(or all the ones he sees/hears about) are off-worlders, and sends a
panicked report that someone is using biological warfare to throw
offworlders off-planet, an obvious move by anti-Imperial rebels?
Something for the Scientist PC to work on, perhaps from the other
side of a quarantine against an invisible killer...your Vargr friend is
stuck down there, it's not affecting him but they think he's a carrier...
while a stifling hot wind keeps blowing out of season, from the 
Spire-Tree forests across the now-abandoned parkways of the 
starport...

just some thoughts...

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 16:26:33 +1200
From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: TU using Book2ish CT ship designs

>A 10 ton chunk of nickel-iron is only a bit over a meter across. (one
>cubic meter of the stuff weighs about 8 tons). At 1000 km/s it will
>release as much energy as a 1 megaton bomb on impact.


Only if all of survives entry into the atmosphere, unless of course you are
blasting a vacuum world.
I'm no physicist but I think a fair bit of the rock will burn up on entering
the atmosphere.

Cheers,
 Anson

I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather,
not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 19:27:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Viable Populations

In mail you write:

> A simple question that I thought would be hypothetical: How many
> make a viable breeding population? Christopher Thrash (thanks Chris!)
> provides a solid answer (500), the source (genetics research and
> zoo/animal husbandry breeding program studies) and variables that
> could affect the numbers.
>
> Obtrav: Now we know that a planet with a population code of less than
> two (and even half or so of those) is not viable on it's own, barring
> TL for genetic engineering. It's going to be someone else's outpost,
> a permanent base for a changing ever-transient population, or will
> be the remnants of a population that's dying out. We knew that about
> small planets anyway, but it's nice to know that it's in the two range
> instead of the 3+ range.

Keep in mind that this is all a matter of *probabilities*. Things like
genetic drift are *statistical*, and in small populations weird things
can happen. 

It's *unlikely* that a population of 2 can be viable. It's not
*impossible*. It's thought that cheetahs may have gone as low *one*
breeding pair in relatively recent times. They've recovered nicely,
though they are so genetically uniform that if a disease crosses over
to them before they get some diversity back, they could suffer a
massive die-off.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 19:32:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Viable Populations

In mail you write:

> You are correct, however, that by careful management the actual population
> could be as low as 26 (13 male, 13 female) for a few generations and still
> maintain an effective population of greater than 50.  But as the species
> survival guys put it:  that's the minimum, not the goal.
>
> In fact, you could get by with even fewer if you had to, you simply run the
> risk of dying out from inbreeding.  I've seen figures to suggest that a
> species can come back from a single generation as small as 4 (totally
> unrelated) members, if it then builds back up to N > 500 as rapidly as
> possible.  You lose about 25% of genetic variability in the process.

Small populations are notorious for loss of genes and the resulting
rapid genetic drift. One of the old Pohl/Kornbluth novels ("Search the
Sky"?) had this as a major background element. On one planet a
substantial chunk of the population had lost *all* genetic diversity.
They were essentially clones of each other. One interesting consequence
was the effect when they invaded the other group on the planet. Picture
the reaction of your average soldier when he kills one of the enemy at
short range, and the next one to charge looks exactly the same.... 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 19:41:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: *New* technology for the uninformed

In mail you write:

> On TV the other day I saw a cop stop a suspect who was selling drugs, but
> the guy kept denying everything. Well, the cop had a little toy he just
> bought for his kid: a tiny keychain with buttons that made synthezied
> sci-fi sounds like ray-guns, ufos, etc. The officer took the toy and
> *scanned* the dealer with it the same way McCoy used his medical device
> in StarTrek.
>
> The *scanner* confirmed that the guy had drugs on him, and he then
> confessed and was taken in. Some people just don't know what may or may
> not be real on a new world (new to them) and can be easily taken in. I
> suspect that this  becomes increasingly possible when dealing across
> different TLs and cultures.
>
> Dealing with the appropriate bluffing rolls, of course, this will
> definitaly become a factor in my player's next stop by a naval ship or
> security base. And of course, some of these things *will* be real.
>
> What other devices or bluffing scenarios can you think of? Something
> besides contraband: perhaps lie detectors, disease alarms, etc...

It also works in reverse too. Somebody *thinks* it's a bluff but the
gizmo really works. 

Anyway, here are somethings that might exist or might be a bluff:

various detectors for substances/energies
lie detectors that *work*
various psi devices
gizmos that either ID people by group or by *intent*

Is that a pen or a disguised comm unit?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 19:48:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jump exit points

In mail you write:

>>Yes, but does it say that because a) the author intended the jump exit
>>points
>>to move with the the planet, b) he hadn't flashed on the fact that the
>>jump can last a variable amount of time and the planet is in motion wrt
>>other objects in the universe?  Add to this the fact that you certainly
>>don't have to jump to 100 diameters (you can jump to deep space)
>>and that variability in the exit point has been mentioned elsewhere
>>means that you definately don't have to come right out at 100 diams
>>and you may see why I'm not so sure that this has been officially
>>decided.
>>
> Why would a navigator not jump for the intercept point?  I'm reasonably
> certain that the nav program has the orbital data for all jumps within its
> range updated as soon as it lands.  It could also reasonably calculate from
> previously KNOWN data where it needed to exit if you weren't able to get a
> fresh update.
>
>  I believe that the low end of the 168 hours would be at the near edge of
> the hex and the high end would be at the far edge.  Thinking along these
> lines one can assume if your jump goes according to computations you will
> exit jump + or -  a few minutes of what was predicted by the computer and
> you will be within the 100 D specs.  This allows for all planetary movement
> so that you won't be on an intercept course with other gravity wells in that
> system.

Except that it is established that with *careful* calculation (ie
military convoys) the ships arrive over the course of a couple of
hours. 

Normal jumps are plus or minus quite a few hours. At a typcal orbital
velocity of 20 km/sec, a planet moves 72,000 km in the course of an
hour. That's 9-10 diameters for an Earth sized planet. 

Also, since the planet is not only moving, but it is moving in a
*changing* direction, if you match velocity based on your expected time
of exit, and come out early or late, you'll be going in the wrong
direction too. For earth I come up with 2.5 minutes of arc per hour. 

At least the relative velocity of the stars at the start and end can be
treated as constant. :-)

> That to me is why the jump calculations take so long in the first place.
> There will be the occasional anomaly that causes some minor (hopefully)
> "deflection" that could throw you off.  I personally think this will be as
> rare as misjumps if you have proper software, trained operators and good
> maintenance.

The rules give differing durations. Starship operator's manual give 168
hr +/- 10%. That's a spread of 33.6 hrs. And since you are *attempting*
to hit the midpoint, that means that you could be 16.8 hours early or
late. 16.8 hrs is almost 40 minutes of arc, and 1.2 *million* km from
where you intended to be. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 20:08:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jump exit points

In mail you write:

>> Because the variability is + or - 24 hours, which if you match
>> velocity with the star would put you at +- 11 light-seconds for a
>> planet comparable to earth (with an orbital velocity of c. 40
>> km/second).  Even if you do match velocity simple acceleration by
>> the planet can shift your exit point by over ten thousand kilometers
>> (if you intersect earlier or later in its orbital path), though this
>> is probably safely ignorable under normal circumstances.

> You seem to have ignored the other two paragraphs that went with this
> post.....
>
> Once you exit J space you fall back under Newtonian laws. The plus or minus
> 24 hours could (and I believe does) exist to reflect the distance from one
> side of a hex to the other.  The navigator WOULD calculate the location of
> your destination down to the second and bring you out of jump at the point
> where it would be on an intercept course moving at the exact speed it had
> attained when it entered jump.  Whether it takes 144 hours or 182  or more
> probably somewhere in between depends on where the jump exit point is
> calculated to be.  The program would run the orbits of all gravity wells in
> the new system  looking for the optimum exit point based on your present
> heading and speed.  I believe that once committed it would give a short
> countdown (5-10 secs) to allow for it to include its exact present location
> so that it WILL know to the second when it will need to exit jump space.
>
> This to me is the only way it makes any sense to have the 48 hour deviation
> in jump and it still be considered SAFE travel.  It is also the best reason
> to have TRAINED operators flying the craft and making minor adjustments.

You seem to have a mistaken impression. You don't exit jump through any
action of the crew. You *enter* jump deliberately. You come out
automatically, regardless of any action takenm on the ship *short of
blowing it up).

So while you may be able to tell when you will exit jump *after* you've
entered it, you don't know beforehand. It depends on variables that
aren't well understood. 

> It has been mentioned in several places that quick jump calculations get you
> into trouble and in the recent Traveller novel a poorly arranged departure
> kept them in system an extra 24 hours while they were maneuvering away from
> all the gravity wells.  Low level computers,  poorly trained navigators, bad
> LH, and ill maintained drives all lead to long in system hauls because you
> aren't coming out where the computer calculated you would.

Don't base *anything* on the novels. They have *major* disagreements
with game materials. 

> I do want to emphasize the concept of proper planning and good calculations
> should lead to you being where you're supposed to be at the exact time
> you're supposed to be there and it DON'T matter if it took 144 or 182
> hours.  The time equates to which side of the hex or where in the hex you
> exit.

No. Again, you miss the important fact. You don't know how long the
jump will take until *after* you jump. This is an inherent
characteristic of jump drive physics (actually it's just the way the
rules work). 

> THIS IS MY OPINION!

That's nice. Pity the *rules* say something different. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 21:04:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Amber Zones

In mail you write:

> I was just reading in the MT Ref's manual about amber zones, what are the
> criteria for making a world an amber zone?
>
> War? I don't think so, unless it's global or nuclear (in which case
> it'll be over in a couple of hours). Look at earth today, we have
> numerous wars going on but it's still safe to visit most countries.

I suggest that you check the State Department's web pages. They have a
rather extensive list of places that they recommend you don't visit, or
that they advise you to be *real* careful about visiting. 

It doesn't take a full fledged war for there to be a significant hazard
to visitors.

> Disease? Remember Ebola? It didn't make the whole planet un-safe, just a
> portion of it dangerous. I wonder if AIDS could be considered lethal enough
> to stop visitors, it's certainly lethal and communicable...
>
> Famine? Hell this would make the planet ripe for trade, just bring em food
> and they'll love you.

Yeah, that worked *real* well in Somalia. 

You have to realize that most famines are due to the local government
deciding that they don't want to let relief supplies reach an area
suffering a drought or other source of crop failure. And they'll get
*real* upset with anyone trying to get food to the "rebels" in those
areas. 

Or they want a cut of the supplies, or *large* "handling fees" to let
the supplies move from the port.

> Pestilence? Anything pestile enough to make an amber zone would have chewed
> the colonists long ago.

Wanna bet? *They* may have developed immunity. Or some local factor may
keep the disease dormant until you leave the planet (a premise Murray
Leinster had great fun with).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 20:16:10 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jump exit points

In mail you write:

>> Because the variability is + or - 24 hours, which if you match
>> velocity with the star would put you at +- 11 light-seconds for a
>> planet comparable to earth (with an orbital velocity of c. 40
>> km/second).  Even if you do match velocity simple acceleration by
>> the planet can shift your exit point by over ten thousand kilometers
>> (if you intersect earlier or later in its orbital path), though this
>> is probably safely ignorable under normal circumstances.

> You aim for where the planet will be in 7 days 12 hours.  That takes
> care of your bracket.  It's canonical that an incoming jump will drop
> you right at 100 diameters, no closer.

What's the fact that you can't come out closer than 100 diameters have
to do with it?

Consider the case where the planet is moving at right angles to your
jump. Regardless of when you exit jump, you won't be too close.
Instead, if you come out at the 7d12h you specify above, you'll be 100
diameters away, and right where the planet is. If you come out earlier,
you'll still come out at the same point (relative to the star) but for
each hour earlier, the planet will be 10-20 diameters farther off to
the side. 

Here's a diagram that may help. 

early                on time                 late
|                       |                       |
C B A 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A B C 
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+







*                       *                       *   <-100 diameters out
^                       ^                       ^
|                       |                       |
- -12 hours               7d                      +12 hours

Now do you get the picture? Assuming you aim for where the planet will
be in 7 days, you'd come out at the middle asterisk. If you aime for
7d12h, you'll come out at the one on the right, if you aim for 6d12h
you'll come out at the one on the left.

It should be obvious that the best place to aim for is the middle one,
because *on average* you'll have the least distance to go. 

Note that this diagram assumes that the planet is size 8, and moving a
bit over 20 km/sec. It's not that hard to draw up similar diagrams for
other size planets and other orbital velocities. But this suffices to
give the basic idea.

For other parts of it's orbit the line representing the planet's
positions will be tilted at various angles. But that "jump for the +12
hour position" trick only works when the plent is moving essentially
*straight* away from you or towards you.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 19:21:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Viable population (was Re: Distinguishing the Vilani)

In mail you write:

> Note that a bottleneck produced by ruthless culling may have the effect of
> mitigating later inbreeding problems.  Grey wolf populations in Minnesota
> seem to have experienced a severe bottleneck sometime in the past that
> eliminated most (if not all) undesirable recessive genes. In one
> experiment, breeders conducted brother-sister matings of grey wolves for
> four generations without producing *any* bad recessives [presentation by
> the Wolf Survival Group, Patuxent Wildlife Research Lab, 1986].

Also consider cheetahs. It's thought that their population went through
a *severe* bottleneck. So severe that they have almost *zero* genetic
variation across the entire species. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 21:12:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music.

In mail you write:

> I was just sitting here contemplating my navel when it struck me, are
> Traveller fanatics similar? As an idea I came across music as an analogy to
> feeling. I was just wondering if you guys had a similar mindset to mine,
> e-mail me privately if you don't want to pollute the list. Personally I
> don't give a shug (remember Ace Trucking Company?) either way.
>
> I like,
> NOFX
> nomeansno
> the Vandals
> Iron Maiden
> Nirvana
> Gene Pitney

Hell, I've only *heard* two of those groups!

I'm into filk, folk, and anything else that strikes my fancy. My
current rather limited collection has:

(records)
Original Star Wars soundtrack album 
Ditto for the first Strar Trek movie.
Soundtrack Album for "Monty Python and the Holy grail".
"Science Fiction Movie themes"
several albums of Scottish music (mostly pipes and drums).

CDs, tapes
Neil Diamond
Kingston Trio
Peter, Paul & Mary
Rocky Horror soundtrack
Gordon Lightfoot
Rick Wakeman
Moody Blues
Dr. Demento....:-)



- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 08:53:15 +0400
From: Andy Long <andyl@icluae.co.ae>
Subject: Re: brown dwarfs

> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 18:06:08 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: brown dwarfs
> 
<Snip>
> 
> A white dwarf is more like a few *dozen* miles across IIRC. Jupiter is
> near the maximum size for a non-star. You add mass to a body like
> jupiter and it starts getting *smaller, because the core goes
> degenerate, and thus takes up a *lot* less space. It's not until the
> mass gets high enough to sustain hydrogen fusion at the core that the
> body expands again (due to photon pressure).
> 
> So the maximum mass for a type L *would* be just a hair under that
> required to ignite as a M dwarf. 
> 
> Wouldn't *that* be something to be close too. I wonder how long it'd
> take from the start of fusion until the star starts expanding? 
> 
As I recall, that is what the Monoliths were doing to Jupiter in Arthur
Clarke's 2031(?) Odyssey II. I was impressed by the SFX that they used
for that one, and they'd probably manage something even better these
days...

Andy Long
================================================================
smtp Email:			andyl@icluae.co.ae OR
						andylong@emirates.net.ae
x400 Email:			c=ae;a=emdan;p=icl;ou1=abu0101;
						s=Long;i=AG;
						o=International
Computers Ltd;
A.G. Long, c/o ICL	Phone:	+971 (2) 335200/338066
PO Box 7237			Fax:	+971 (2) 338724
Abu Dhabi
United Arab Emirates
================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 21:30:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: How diseases work (was Re: Disease and the fall...)

In mail you write:

> Well, possesing somewhat higher grade-level of knowledge here, I'll
> gently correct Ethan a bit, still in real basic form.
>
> Ethan Henry wrote:
>
>> 1. infectious "things"
>
> Fungi that infect humans tend to infect exterior surfaces, as most of
> them are aerobic, requiring oxygen to live; this however, includes
> things that _most_ people don't consider exterior, things like lungs,
> the digestive tract, and some parts of the genito-urinary tract.
> infection happens under two major conditions, (with some exceptions) the
> fungi colonizes a part of the body hard for immune cells to reach (dead
> layers of epidermis, mucus membranes) athlete's foot and yeast
> infections in women fall into these categories.

Little known fact. *Men* get yeast infections. But on men, they tend to
be asymptomatic. But doctors finally realized this was why some women
would get recurring infections that kept coming back as soon as they
quit treating them. They were getting reinfected by their husband or
boy friend!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:05:49 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Pre-contact Terra, pt. II

The introduction to "The Islands Clusters Campaign" (Adv 5: Trillion Credit
Squadron, p. 40), begins with:

"Early in the space-faring history of Terra, a long-range program of
interstellar colonization was begun, only to be abandoned with the
discovery of jump drive.  Before that abandonment, however, several large
colony expeditions were launched.  The most ambitious such effort was
launched in 2050 by the European Space Agency, in cooperation with the
French O'Neill colony and Beltmetallfabrik, AG."

My question:  has anyone ever detailed, in canon or otherwise, 

	(1) The French O'Neill colony,

	(2) Beltmetallfabrik, AG, or

	(3) the "several large colony expeditions", besides the ESA Longrange
Colony Mission that settled the Islands Clusters?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:12:27 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Annual Maintenance & Starports 

Sat, 13 Jun 1998 23:09:52 +1200, Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>

>> Take down each computer for maintenance.
>> Re-seal airlocks, test integrity of all air-tight
>> compartments.
>> Repairs as needed.
>
>These however should be ongoing tasks performed by the
>Ships engineer - If you're in town for a week, why isn't
>the engineer working on something?
>
>> Also, the ship's transponder log downloaded to Imperial authorities.  As
>> part of certification process, logs checked for obvious illegal activity
>> (violations of interdicted space, entry into Zhodani space, etc.)  Any
>> oddities in the record will need to be documented.

>This bugs me. I'm not sure why. Partly I think because I
>don't believe there is a electronic log option that is
>foolproof, and partly because I don't see why it is any of
>the Imperium's business. If I get my maintenance done at an
>Imperial starport, then sure, they'll try going through my
>logs, but if it's not an imperial port (and I don't believe
>all of them are) then they may be out of luck.

>This is without addressing the dataprocessing needs of logging
>every ship in the empire, since I think that if they wanted
>to they could - though I don't think it would be foolproof,
>no completely without false positives.

>I also wonder about the over-all law level of the Imperium.
>At what law level does the state get to routinely monitor
>the activities of people unconnected with a criminal
>invesitgation? If Dulinor can make a case that he shouldn't
>have his mind read before going near the emperor, then I
>think there is a tradition that big brother has limits to
>it's authority to pry.

>I also think that having an Imperium with a tradition of
>not over-regulating things has advantages from a
>roleplaying POV. Living in a police-state all the time can
>get a bit depressing.

I agree.  It seems some people have a vision of the Imperium
where you have to have all your papers checked all the
time and you have to drive on the right "side of the space
lane" and you have to file with the IRS every year, etc.
Its not my vision of the Imerpium.

(I also agree with the ides that it wouldn't work all that
well to...)

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:03:59 -0700
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: JG and the IRS

> William F. Hostman wrote:
> > If Mr Bludsoe makes any moneys from any product, the IRS can sieze the
> > moneys, and/or hold product and infrastructure for sale/auction in
order to
> > pay off the tax lien.
> What did the guy do? Not pay his taxes? How long has this been going on?

He paid his taxes, the IRS just says he did not.  Over 10 years.

> 					 Volker

Legate, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #584
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, June 14 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 585



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Jump exit points
Planetary temperatures
Re: Selling a starship
Re: Disease and the fall of Ziru Sirka
Re: Annual maintenance & starports
Re: Disease and the fall of Ziru Sirka
Tracy class freighter (take 2)
Re: Annual maintenance
Firing CPR weapons in vacuum
Re: Viable population (was Re: Distinguishing the Vilani) 
Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music. 
Re: Jump exit points 
Re: Firing CPR weapons in vacuum
Re: Planetary temperatures
Re: Firing CPR weapons in vacuum 
Re: Viable Populations
Re: Jump exit points
Re: Annual Maintenance & Starports
Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... )
Re: Disease and the Fall of the Ziru Sirka

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:46:45 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Jump exit points

I seem to have missed at least one digest. I've seen several followups to
followups that I haven't seen.

IMO the simplest way to explain the rules for how a jump works is to
assume that the jump exit point moves with time. Nor do I see why it
should be so implausible. We know that there is at least one real-space
phenomenon that reaches into jump space, namely gravity. So why shouldn't
you be able to aim for a point relative to a specific gravity well?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:58:23 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Planetary temperatures

Leonard Erickson writes:

>Humans *can* survive air temperatures of 500 F if they are naked and it's
>the *air* that's that hot (several of the volunteers in the experiment
>that established this got burns under sweatbands they were wearing!).

That reminds me of a problem I've had with my detailing of planets. Just
when does an area become uninhabitable without advanced technological
help? I have this TL 4 planet where the summer daytime temperatures
reach 70 degrees Celcius in the tropics. Wouldn't that be too hot for
the normal person to handle.

Actually, there is really two questions: At what temperature can a human
live (ie. be born, grow up, and have children) and at what temperature
can a human live for a time (ie. travel across)? I realize that TL will
enter into it, but can anyone give me some ballpark figures?

Hmmm... I suppose it also makes a difference whether we're talking desert
or jungle.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:07:11 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Selling a starship

Leonard Erickson writes:

>BTW, I don't believe that it is *possible* to get 9 rolls of "ship" on
>the mustering out tables :-)

It's extremely unlikely, but I believe that it is _always_ possible,
if you have a chance of getting one at all. You don't get to the point
where you get the +1 to the Benefits Table without collecting more
than 9 rolls.

Of course, the crucial difference lies between getting it 4 and getting
it 5 times.

>I'm too tired to work out the required formula, but I think the above
>table can be extrapolate in such a way as to allow a 1 benefit to get
>an *80* year old ship with no payments, and other interesting
>possibilities. 

Interesting if you fiddle up some improved maintenance and breakdown
rules. Otherwise it wouldn't make much of a difference in gaming terms.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:12:26 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Disease and the fall of Ziru Sirka

Leonard Erickson writes:

>Actually, we can't cure *any* viral disease. Zip, none, nada.

I think your information about that may be slightly out of date.
I talked about that with my sister, who is a doctor, after the point
was raised last time, and since then she's given me two or three
articles from her medical journals detailing cures for various viral
infections. Nothing spectacular, but they were viral infections and
it was cures, not prevention. I'll see if I still have the articles
lying around somewhere.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:29:42 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Annual maintenance & starports

Steve Rennell writes:

>So, just to tie this in to that other interminable  thread...
>What does it cost to build a dock that can build one 
>pirate ship at a time? 
>What about do annual maintenance on one ship at a time?

Well, the calculations I made and posted two weeks ago (with several
assumptions that may not be true) came to MCr10 per 100 T of ship the
shipyard is to be able to handle. This is for the capital investment
alone and does not include salaries. Nor does it include any cost for
transporting the machinery from the production world to the Secret
Pirate Lair.

As for the difference between building and maintaining a ship, the
capital investment would be the same. You are just able to spread
the recouping of the investment out over 26 ships/year when you are
doing maintenance.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:38:22 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Disease and the fall of Ziru Sirka

From:           	Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject:        	Re: Disease and the fall of Ziru Sirka
To:             	traveller@MPGN.COM
Date sent:      	Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:12:26 +0200 (METDST)
Send reply to:  	traveller@MPGN.COM

> Leonard Erickson writes:

> >Actually, we can't cure *any* viral disease. Zip, none, nada.

> I think your information about that may be slightly out of date.
> I talked about that with my sister, who is a doctor, after the point
> was raised last time, and since then she's given me two or three
> articles from her medical journals detailing cures for various viral
> infections. Nothing spectacular, but they were viral infections and
> it was cures, not prevention. I'll see if I still have the articles
> lying around somewhere.

She might be referring to Zovirax(?) which is used in the treatment of Herpes et 
al. While it is a truely remarkable stuff, its not a "cure" as such. It works by 
suppressing the virus during its acute attacks. It does not however directly 
affect the virus which still remains in the infected nerve cells; more it forces the 
virus back into its dormant stage. But it has to be applied almost immediately 
the outbreak occures (within a few hours). It is however one of the most 
promising recent develoments in antiviral work

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++++ su+ ge

************************************************************
Of course its safe, I made it myself
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:58:53 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Tracy class freighter (take 2)

The Virgil Tracy is a simple bulk freighter dating from the Interstellar Wars 
period.

Virgil Tracy, Tracy class Longship (FF&S v2)
Designed by Andrew Moffatt-Vallance

Statistics
 Tons: 200 std (SL Slab Hypersonic)
 Crew: 2/4
 Cargo: 100 std (60m2 Cargo Hatch/Ramp Handling: 1 x 150 ton)
 Volume: 2800m3
 Passengers High/Med: 5/0
 Cost: 37.499 MCr
 Mass (L/C): 2990t/1414t
 Passengers Low: 0
 Maintenance Points: 55
 Dimensions: 48.3m x 12.1m x 4.9m
 Troops/Science: 0/0
 Tech Level: 11
 Size: 8
 Frozen Watch: 0

Electronics
 Controls: Dynamic, High automation. 3 x Comp (CM:0.5 CP:2.0). No bridge.
 Communications: 1 x Radio (50,000km, 0.02MW). 1 x Laser (1,000AU, 0MW).
 Sensors: 1 x PEMS (12.5 [1.6mkm], 0MW). 1 x LIDAR (13.5 [50kkm], 
0.1MW).
 Survey/Science:
 ECM:
 Signatures: Vis:0.5, IR:-0.5 (-0.5 at 71MW, -1 at 8MW), Act:0.5, Neu:-1,
             Grav:0

Weaponry
 1 x Turret (+0) 1/0-0-0-0 [1,50/9-5-2-1] (LR) Point defence ROF 800 rpm

Performance
 1 Jump (20std/pc fuel)
 0.9/2	Maneuver (Thruster: 70MW)
 0.9/2 Contra-grav (39MW)
 1827kph/3669kph Atmosphere (Cruise: 1370kph/2752kph)
 1 Power (Fission: 75MW, 1.1yr)
 0 Battery
 20 Fuel (Scoop: 3 Purif: 8, 1MW)
 0/4/5/0/0 Accommodations (9 x Sanitary Fittings)
 117 Person/Weeks Life Support (Type: Extended , Normal Food [Stored])
 1 G-Comp
 0 ESA
 0 Sandcasters
 0 Damper Turrets
 0 Damper Screen
 0 Meson Screen
 0 Force Field
 0 Gravtics
 0 [20] Armour, 18 Structure

Features
 1 x Airlock
 1 x Decontamination Airlock
 1 x Ordinary Galley (Cap: 9)

Small Craft

Backups
 Drives:
 Screens:
 Communications:
 Sensors:
 Survey/Science:
 ECM:
 Power & Fuel:

Crew Details
 1 x Pilot
 1 x Astrogator
 1 x Steward/Gunner
 1 x Medic

One of the most enduring designs to come out of the Interstellar Wars, the
Tracy class were a general purpose tramp freighter serving the many colonies
of the Terran Confederation. The design outlasted the Confederation by a
considerable margin, examples of the class were being constructed in the
Solomani Rim well into the Long Night. The class displays the usual massive
structural strength found in Terran ships of this era, being capable of
withstanding up to 15g's of stress. The distinguishing features of the design
are its large dual story cargo bay occupying the forward 22.5m of the ship,
served by a single large 12m x 5m cargo ramp; the small fission reactor (as
against the large fusion reactors found in Vilani designs); the closed loop
biological life support system; and the 30Mj point defence laser. In order to
maximise the designs cargo capacity, the ship is only fitted with a 75Mw
fission plant, whilst the ships theoretical maximum power usage is 115.83Mw.
The result of this is that whilst using the ships thrusters the Contragrav,
fuel purification and cargo handling equipment must be taken offline. Since
these items are usually not in operation while the thrusters are online, this
rarely causes any difficulties.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++++ su+ ge

************************************************************
Of course its safe, I made it myself
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 23:10:04 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Annual maintenance

Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote:
> Well, the calculations I made and posted two weeks ago (with several
> assumptions that may not be true) came to MCr10 per 100 T of ship the
> shipyard is to be able to handle. 

Assuming for the moment that this is not too far off, then 
what is the profit margin on you average ship? is it 10% or 
is it closer to 50%? If I'm building a series of 200t 
freighters, at what point does it become more profitable to 
buy the hardware (for 20Mcr) and build them myself than to 
pay the Mcr35 or so for a 200t J1 Ship? What about for a 
60Mcr J2 ship? Is it two or three?  

> As for the difference between building and maintaining a ship, the
> capital investment would be the same. You are just able to spread
> the recouping of the investment out over 26 ships/year when you are
> doing maintenance.

Ok, assuming that you want to recoup 3% Return on
Investment on your 20Mcr which is doing maintenance on 26
200t Ships per year, then you need to score about Cr
600,000 per year in profit. or about Cr 23000 per ship,
plus wages, spare parts and suck like - On a Mcr 35 ship 
you'd be recovering 35000 per maintained ship, so 12000 of 
that is likely to be costs directly associated with 
servicing the Ship. However if you maintain a J2 ship which 
costs 60MCr then you're getting kCr60, of which either the 
costs of servicing are KCr37, or you're making more profit.

I think perhaps that the maintenance fee should be related 
to things other than the cost of the ship ("I've just added 
a 10Mcr Laser turret, damn, now checking the Jumpgrid is 
going to cost me an extra 10,000 Cr per year" - seems 
strange to me.)

What about basing it on a percentage of the Jump Drive1, 
multiplied by the Size of the Ship (Big ships have more 
surface to examine)?

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:06:04 +0200
From: Deligiannidis Nikolaos <nikolaos.deligiannidis@stud.tu-muenchen.de>
Subject: Firing CPR weapons in vacuum

Is it possible to fire a CPR  gun in vacuum ??
The problem , in my opinion, is in the combustion reaction in the
barrel!
And which action will be required to refire it ( only electric action-
"chaingun",
or is it possible to use recoil- and/or gas-operated receivers)!

Any suggestions wil be helpfull!!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 09:13:51 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Viable population (was Re: Distinguishing the Vilani) 

> > Note that a bottleneck produced by ruthless culling may have the effect of
> > mitigating later inbreeding problems.  Grey wolf populations in Minnesota
> > seem to have experienced a severe bottleneck sometime in the past that
> > eliminated most (if not all) undesirable recessive genes. In one
> > experiment, breeders conducted brother-sister matings of grey wolves for
> > four generations without producing *any* bad recessives [presentation by
> > the Wolf Survival Group, Patuxent Wildlife Research Lab, 1986].
> 
> Also consider cheetahs. It's thought that their population went through
> a *severe* bottleneck. So severe that they have almost *zero* genetic
> variation across the entire species. 

You'll start getting some variation as soon as the breeding population grows
enough and background radiation mutates a few genes.  The longer the timeline,
the more variation.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 09:15:34 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music. 

> (records)
> Original Star Wars soundtrack album 
> Ditto for the first Strar Trek movie.
> Soundtrack Album for "Monty Python and the Holy grail".
> "Science Fiction Movie themes"
> several albums of Scottish music (mostly pipes and drums).
> 
> CDs, tapes
> Neil Diamond
> Kingston Trio
> Peter, Paul & Mary
> Rocky Horror soundtrack
> Gordon Lightfoot
> Rick Wakeman
> Moody Blues
> Dr. Demento....:-)

Got any Melanie???????  I've got 3 or 4 of her albumns, but can't listen to
them right now cause they're on vinyl.  *(

Same with my Zappa

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 09:30:14 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Jump exit points 

> > You aim for where the planet will be in 7 days 12 hours.  That takes
> > care of your bracket.  It's canonical that an incoming jump will drop
> > you right at 100 diameters, no closer.
> 
> What's the fact that you can't come out closer than 100 diameters have
> to do with it?

It's a canonical handwave.  You can't keep your jumpbubble/wormhole/whatever 
within 100 diameters of a significant gravitational pointsource.

> Consider the case where the planet is moving at right angles to your
> jump. Regardless of when you exit jump, you won't be too close.
> Instead, if you come out at the 7d12h you specify above, you'll be 100
> diameters away, and right where the planet is. If you come out earlier,
> you'll still come out at the same point (relative to the star) but for
> each hour earlier, the planet will be 10-20 diameters farther off to
> the side. 
[snip] 
> It should be obvious that the best place to aim for is the middle one,
> because *on average* you'll have the least distance to go. 

This assumes that vector & speed as well as orientation are somehow 'locked 
into' a jump and that the jump itself is a straight line.  I don't play it 
*quite* that way.  IMTU, vector & speed, referenced to the galactic core, is 
constant, but you can fiddle with the calculations to drop you at any point 
you want on the 100 diameter sphere.

> Note that this diagram assumes that the planet is size 8, and moving a
> bit over 20 km/sec. It's not that hard to draw up similar diagrams for
> other size planets and other orbital velocities. But this suffices to
> give the basic idea.

Given constant accelleration M-drives, orbital speeds of 20 km/s are trivial 
to deal with, as long as your speed is low.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 06:31:21 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Firing CPR weapons in vacuum

At 02:06 PM 6/14/98 +0200, you wrote:
>Is it possible to fire a CPR  gun in vacuum ??
>The problem , in my opinion, is in the combustion reaction in the
>barrel!
>And which action will be required to refire it ( only electric action-
>"chaingun",
>or is it possible to use recoil- and/or gas-operated receivers)!

There's more than enough oxygen in the powder to sustain combustion, and
the only real problem I would see with an open system would be full auto
fire.  Using a sealed, caseless design (like the G-11) would end that problem.

Ammo stored in vacuum might case degrigation of the propellent after a
time, but I imagine that special vacc-ammo would be produced.
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 06:37:54 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Planetary temperatures

At 11:58 AM 6/14/98 +0200, you wrote:

>Actually, there is really two questions: At what temperature can a human
>live (ie. be born, grow up, and have children) and at what temperature
>can a human live for a time (ie. travel across)? I realize that TL will
>enter into it, but can anyone give me some ballpark figures?

Humans have thrived at very low TL's from -40C (Siberia, north slope
Alaska) to +40C (Sahara, Australian Outback, American Southwest).  Much
higher, and unacclimated people start dying of heatstroke very quickly.

Humans adapt quickly, however, and within a few generations you'd find the
population becoming more suited for the enviroment.

>Hmmm... I suppose it also makes a difference whether we're talking desert
>or jungle.

Not really.. heat is the problem.  High humidity makes it more likely to
notice that you are getting heat sick due to nausea, disorientation, etc.
In a low humidity situation, passing out is usually the first (and last)
sign of trouble.  Water discipline is just as important in SE Asia as it is
the Kalahari desert.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 09:46:17 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Firing CPR weapons in vacuum 

> Is it possible to fire a CPR  gun in vacuum ??

Yup.

> The problem , in my opinion, is in the combustion reaction in the
> barrel!

The powder contains both propellant and oxidant.  Remember, the casing is 
sealed against moisture and is set off when the primer is struck.

> And which action will be required to refire it ( only electric action-
> "chaingun",
> or is it possible to use recoil- and/or gas-operated receivers)!

The bullet would seal the muzzle, allowing the gas ports ot operate.  The 
problem would be, if the weapon were in vacuum long enough for the gasses 
trapped on the working edges of the weapon to outgas.  This would increase the 
friction, possibly causing a jam.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 01:53:20 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Viable Populations

At 07:27 PM 13/06/98 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:

>It's *unlikely* that a population of 2 can be viable. It's not
>*impossible*. It's thought that cheetahs may have gone as low *one*
>breeding pair in relatively recent times. They've recovered nicely,
>though they are so genetically uniform that if a disease crosses over
>to them before they get some diversity back, they could suffer a
>massive die-off.

I may have mentioned this already, but a veterinarian friend of mine says
that cheetahs are so alike that you can do organ transplants between them
without worrying about rejection.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 10:24:28 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jump exit points

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> I seem to have missed at least one digest. I've seen several followups to
> followups that I haven't seen.
>
> IMO the simplest way to explain the rules for how a jump works is to
> assume that the jump exit point moves with time. Nor do I see why it
> should be so implausible. We know that there is at least one real-space
> phenomenon that reaches into jump space, namely gravity. So why shouldn't
> you be able to aim for a point relative to a specific gravity well?

I prefer to think that you can sense gravity while in J-space.  Then you make
tiny course corrections as you feel around in the dark until you think you're
at the right location.  You'll probably feel the star's gravity ramping up
first.  Then you start poking around at an appropriate gravity level (read:
distance from star equal to destination orbit).  When you find a saddle
point, you know you're close to an orbiting body.  You follow that up to the
danger level (read: if you continue at jump speed, you won't have enough time
to react and may crash into a planet).  Then you kill the engines and
precipitate out of J-space.

This allows for exploring new systems where you have NO information about
orbiting planets.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 22:51:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Annual Maintenance & Starports

In mail you write:

> I also wonder about the over-all law level of the Imperium. 
> At what law level does the state get to routinely monitor 
> the activities of people unconnected with a criminal 
> invesitgation? If Dulinor can make a case that he shouldn't 
> have his mind read before going near the emperor, then I 
> think there is a tradition that big brother has limits to 
> it's authority to pry.

I suggest that you check into what goes on *now*. Air travellers are
kept track of *quite* extensively. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 22:56:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... )

In mail you write:

>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> > High tech goodies usually have little problems like this, that we all 
> agree
>> > to ignore, much like the causality problems produced by ump drives.
>> 
>> Have you *tried* to plot a "timelike" course using Traveller
>> technology? I have, and it's sufficiently *hard* that we can pretty
>> much ignore it. You need to be able to hit a fair fraction of c to make
>> it work. And even with thruster plates that's not easy.
>
> How can there be causuality effects from jump drives?  Lightspeed isn't 
> being violated, it's being sidestepped.

Sorry, but all that's required is that the time between when you leave
point A and arrive at point B be *less* than the time light takes to go
from A to B.

If you combine this with light speed communication to someone moving at
sufficiently high speed, they can get a message to A before you left.
It's kinda complicated, but it is a consequence of the *geometry* of
spacetime, especially the way it changes as relative velocities
approach c. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 23:03:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Disease and the Fall of the Ziru Sirka

In mail you write:

> Here's another nasty thing to worry about when landing on a new
> planet, cribbed from some deaths reported in Frederick Pohl's
> _Gateway_: Allergies. There are some people on Earth who are
> deathly allergic to honeybee stings, seafood, chocolate, a whole
> list of things. The symptoms can be horrific and quickly fatal, as 
> airways swell up to the point of closure, or entire body systems shut
> down.
>
> In _Gateway_, some explorers came back to their lander just fine.
> Within minutes they were itchy. Then their lungs started producing
> fluid, then they gurgled themselves to death. Their bodies were, quite
> simply, massively allergic to some spore, dust composition, or other
> item in the environment. The mother ship abandoned the lander
> and made a note not to come back.
>
> Allergens could easily affect humans entering a non-terran environment,
> and (since it isn't usually a living organism) could easily be missed
> by any kind of scanning gear - the gear is looking for bacteria, fungi and
> viruses.

Allergens have one thing in common. They are all proteins. What's going
on is that either they closely resemble something that your immune
system *has* to react to, or for many people like me we got exposed to
something in such a way that our immune system got overly sensitized to
it. 

Desensitization consists of finding an amount that's small enough to
trigger a minor reaction, but not large enough to trigger a full
fledged attack. You expose the person to the small amount for long
enough and the immmune system will finally decide to ignore it. Or at
least, not to overreact so badly.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #585
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, June 14 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 586



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: TU using Book2ish CT ship designs
Re: Trading Questions
Re: Jump and Maneuver: IMTU (long)
Re: Annual Maintenance & Starports
Re: JG and the IRS
Re: Request for computer help (non-traveller)
Re: Request for computer help (non-traveller)
Re: Annual maintenance
Re: Firing CPR weapons in vacuum
Re: Request for computer help (non-traveller)
Re: Disease and the Fall of the Ziru Sirka
Re: [T98#575] Traveller Domain names
Re: Black Curtain
Re: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka
Re: Jump exit points
Re: Jump and Maneuver: IMTU (long)
Traveller
Re: Annual Maintenance & Starports
Re: Disease and the Fall of the Ziru Sirka
Re: Annual maintenance
Re: Annual Maintenance (logs & transponders)
Police States
FLASH FLASH: Rare Traveller Items For Sale
Classic Traveller - Adventure Gaming 12/81
Classic Traveller - Adventure Gaming 12/81

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:58:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: TU using Book2ish CT ship designs

In mail you write:

>>A 10 ton chunk of nickel-iron is only a bit over a meter across. (one
>>cubic meter of the stuff weighs about 8 tons). At 1000 km/s it will
>>release as much energy as a 1 megaton bomb on impact.
>
> Only if all of survives entry into the atmosphere, unless of course you are
> blasting a vacuum world.
> I'm no physicist but I think a fair bit of the rock will burn up on entering
> the atmosphere.

At 1000 km/sec I'm not sure that there's *time* for it to burn up. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 23:10:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Trading Questions

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erikson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Actually, that's a case of byproduct utilization. A *non* farmer would
> have to pay for stone that was quarried or otherwise dug up. But in
> places like Ireland and New England, there are a lot of rocks mixed in
> with the soil. And every winter, frost forces them a bit closer to the
> surface. So every year when you plow, you turn up new rocks. So you
> take the rocks to the nearest edge of the field and pile them there.
> After a few centuries, you have a nice rock wall around the field!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> There are farmers in Georgia as well. Georgia's geology, if I've heard
> correctly, is more silt/clay than Ireland for most of it's area - not as
> much stone in the soil, so after a few centuries the Georgia farmer
> still has high-maintenance wooden fences around his fields - except
> the wealthy farmer, who paid a lot of money to have good stone shipped
> in from further inland. Thus stone walls seen as a sign of wealth.

Even if Georgia did have the same sort of soil (and I'm sure that some
of it does) it doesn't get *deep* frosts. The ground has to freeze
*hard* and do so to a depth somewhat *below* the stones for the field
to "grow stones". 

> ObTrav: And I know this is obvious, _but_: the useless on one world
> can be gold on the next. A TL7 world might pay you to ship those
> nasty kegs of nuclear waste off-planet, the TL14 society next door
> might happily pay you top dollar for your cargo of rare transnuclear
> compounds. One man's rocks is another man's building materials...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 22:32:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jump and Maneuver: IMTU (long)

In mail you write:

> Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:24:05 -0700, "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
>
>>Automation is a wonderful thing.  Starships have the capacity to virtually
>>fly themselves
>
> I don't allow this for roleplaying reasons.  Important tasks should
> be handled by players, not the automatic systems.  I also don't
> care to render all player ship skill irrelevant.

A modern airliner can practically fly itself too. Nobody let's them do
it except in emergencies or under supervision.

Think of the automated systems as having "skill-0" (or maybe even -1)
in the various skills. Only the desperate will use them without skilled
humans watching them. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 22:41:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Annual Maintenance & Starports

In mail you write:

> I had written,
>> >Does anyone have a Canon description of what exactly is 
>> >done during "annual maintenance"?
>
> Douglas Berry replied: 
>> Pull the engines completely off-line for thorough repairs.
>> Drain fuel tanks, clean, and inspect for damage.
>> Close check of lanthanum grid for integrity.
>
> Agreed - these are "shut the ship down completely" tasks.
>
>> Take down each computer for maintenance.
>> Re-seal airlocks, test integrity of all air-tight
>> compartments.
>> Repairs as needed. 
>
> These however should be ongoing tasks performed by the 
> Ships engineer - If you're in town for a week, why isn't 
> the engineer working on something?

Some types of integrity tests (especially for pressure!) are not the
sort of thing that you want to do just anywhere. The pressure tests
involve pumping things up to *above* normal operating pressures. This
puts a lot of stress on things so you only want to do it occasionally.
Also, if a compartment (more likely "section") of the ship *fails* the
test it's going to do so catastrophically (as in chunks of pressure
bulkhead flying around). Best to have shipyard facilities to fix the
bulkhead, also to X-ray or ultrasound or whatever the plates after the
test. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 22:36:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: JG and the IRS

In mail you write:

> William F. Hostman wrote:
>> If Mr Bludsoe makes any moneys from any product, the IRS can sieze the
>> moneys, and/or hold product and infrastructure for sale/auction in orde=
> r to
>> pay off the tax lien.
> What did the guy do? Not pay his taxes? How long has this been going on?

Could be he made a mistake along the lines of paying off creditors
while Judge's Guild was folding, and not considering that he'd still
have to pay taxes on the money he was paying them with. That's a common
mistake of folks in small business.

So he could have a *huge* tax bill and no money to pay it with. If you
really and truly *don't* have the money or assetts, they'll just keep
an eye on you and grab money as they can. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 08:06:09 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Request for computer help (non-traveller)

Rob, if it can wait 'till monday, I can lend you the space. I know we've got
the room floating around. I have room for all 30 megs...I'll have to set up
the account though, and can't do that 'till then.

How do these wankers keep from getting fired?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 08:06:46 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Request for computer help (non-traveller)

Sorry...that was obviously meant for Rob only...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:49:59 -0500
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Annual maintenance

>What about basing it on a percentage of the Jump Drive1,
                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^

I, for one, think there is too high a percentage of Jump Drivel on the list
already.

:-)

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:55:27 -0500
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Firing CPR weapons in vacuum

>There's more than enough oxygen in the powder to sustain combustion, and
>the only real problem I would see with an open system would be full auto
>fire.  Using a sealed, caseless design (like the G-11) would end that
problem.

Quick question which I have wondered about since the T2000 days... Wouldn't
a sealed, caseless design like the G-11 have severe problems with
overheating and residue? And wouldn't the former problem be worse in a
vaccuum?

Or has someone, somewhere, worked that out?

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 09:23:06 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Request for computer help (non-traveller)

Hello Rob,

I don't know if I can help you or not. My computer has a fair amount of
space left out of it's 3 meg, and I have 3 - 2 meg (compressed) data
tapes unused. They are free for your use if we can transfer the files.
Let me know what and how you want it set up. Please be aware that I am
not a computer wiz by any stretch of the imagination, but am certainly
willing to offer the space.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 10:39:47 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Disease and the Fall of the Ziru Sirka

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 

> Allergens have one thing in common. They are all proteins. What's going
> on is that either they closely resemble something that your immune
> system *has* to react to, or for many people like me we got exposed to
> something in such a way that our immune system got overly sensitized to
> it.

More to the point, novel anitgens will not cause _any_ reaction on first
exposure, unless, as Leonard says, they are quite similar to something else we
_have_ been exposed to.

This makes 'em nastier...

Scouting crew comes back from a nifty nice new planet, ripe for colonization.
They lead the first colonist wave back to the planet. _THEY_ die
gurgling...leaving the unexposed colonists to wonder what the heck is happening...

Not for long, though as the symptoms of anaphylactic shock are recognizable
enough, and treatable enough that people wouldn't die so readily, given
competent medical care. 

This is probably one aspect of medicine that even the Vilani are pretty good
at, since exposure to novel protein or protein-like structures will be
commonplace. After all, it doesn't need to be a protein to be antigenic,
merely a complex enough molecule to register as 'not-self' to the immune
system in the appropriate (and still only vaguely understood) fashion so as to
provoke an allergic reaction.

By the time we're colonizing other planets, we'll probably even be able to
selectively supress the human immune system to prevent the common symptoms of
allergies (he says, having spent parts of this spring sitting in a house with
a case of kleenex, an El Nino inspired bumper crop of weeds, and a nose like a
faucet jammed open ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:44:17 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: [T98#575] Traveller Domain names

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

> On Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:56:33 -0400, Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Somone mentioned "zhodani.org" and it got me thinking... what
> >Traveller-related domain names are out there? A lot are available, but
> >the names that are used outside of "Traveller" tend to be gone (i.e.
> >Aslan). Anyway, through the miracle of shell scripts, I munged this list
> >together... apologies for the size. I didn't query European domains
> >because they're on a separate WHOIS server and my shell programming
> >skills aren't _that_ good. (Also, here's to hoping I didn;t misspell
> >anything!)

I missed the original message...where is the URL for this list?



- --
My god, it's full of stars!


Http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/4467

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:02:04 EDT
From: JLAROSEE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Black Curtain

Hi-
   Questions for anyone: 
Was it ever discerned what was within the Black Curtain (TNE)? 
Has it been used in anyone's campaign? 
Does anyone have a program for creating subsectors that look like those in the
books? The one's I've tried all are basic dotted line products. 
   Thanks-
      Jay

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 10:59:14 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka

Sat, 13 Jun 1998 17:40:50 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Giardia is a parasite, IIRC. That is, it's multicellular.

Giardia is unicellular.  It actually an interesting organism that
is deeply rooted on the tree of life and it lacks some of the
typical features that most eukaryotes posses.

>Bacteria "know" that they are feeding on something that will fight
>back. So they have various defenses, such as secreting toxins (which
>are what tend to make use sick). In other cases, like gangrene, you are
>back to the fungal model of something eating stuff where the immune
>system isn't working well.
>
>So we could get *some* bacterial infections along the gangrene model,
>but more normal infectious bacterial diseases are unlikely as they
>won't have the right defenses, and will not be able to find the sort of
>cells they normally prey on. They are as apt to *starve* in a human
>body as to be recognized as foreign and removed!

The defenses that bacteria have are a product of adaption.  Extraterrestrial
bacteria should be able to adapt to.  As to starving, bacteria are
masters of biochemistry.  If you have a source of chemical energy,
bacteria are going to be able to feed off of it.  Today bacteria
feed on almost every chemical in the enviroment they can get
nutrition off of.  They can reduce ferric iron, CO2, sulfate, oxygen,
etc.  They can oxidize methane, hydrogen, organic matter, etc.

The fact that the Vilani can live off the their environment at
all shows that it is based on amino acids.  That means there will
be bacteria that can live of of amino acids and hence off of people.

>But on another planet the odds are *definitely* against compatible
>viruses.

I wouldn't go that far.  We have never seen another biosphere.
But it wouldn't be suprising if it was true.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:11:09 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump exit points

Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:46:45 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>

>IMO the simplest way to explain the rules for how a jump works is to
>assume that the jump exit point moves with time. Nor do I see why it
>should be so implausible. We know that there is at least one real-space
>phenomenon that reaches into jump space, namely gravity. So why shouldn't
>you be able to aim for a point relative to a specific gravity well?

Leaving aside the question of whether the rules do address this point...
If a jump exit point follows along with a planet, then they should
be attracted to the gravity well.  Yet there is no problem jumping
into deep space.  It also is simply more consistent with momentum
being conserved wrt a newtonian reference from if the jump point
exit is also fixed to that reference frame.  Finally, having more
slop for error leaves more room for roleplaying opportunities and
reduced problems with jumping in suprise attack, "near c" rocks,
etc.  I don't think a  moving jump point is untenable.  I do
think it definately isn't _my_ first choice.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:57:53 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump and Maneuver: IMTU (long)

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> A modern airliner can practically fly itself too. Nobody let's them do
> it except in emergencies or under supervision.

Actually _most_ aircraft can 'fly' themselves, in that they are
aerodynamically stable. Given just about any attitude, they'll self-right and
fly straight, which is why the instructions for many air mishaps for small
aircraft is 'take your hands off the controls', and wait for the aircraft to
right itself. Aerobatic and military fighter craft are different
altogether...they are inherently _unstable_, and require constant control from
the pilot.

Modern airliners can probably _land_ themselves under the right commands to
the autopilot, and under the right circumstances. There was also a recent case
of a small aircraft, taking off, flying around, and landing itself (when it
ran out of fuel). That was one _very_ embarrased pilot! IIRC he was either
warming the engine up or working on it, the brakes failed and he watched his
plane go sailing down the runway and take off...imagine what would happen with
a misconfigured starship with that level of automation...

"Dammit Harry! I KNOW I left the ship parked RIGHT HERE!!!"

;-)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:47:04 -0700
From: Brian Hampeys <bhampeys@sprintmail.com>
Subject: Traveller

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- --------------msE3FD4E9EDAD32D7A85C5B521--

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 15:54:16 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Annual Maintenance & Starports

> Take down each computer for maintenance.
>> Re-seal airlocks, test integrity of all air-tight
>> compartments.
>> Repairs as needed. 
>
>These however should be ongoing tasks performed by the 
>Ships engineer - If you're in town for a week, why isn't 
>the engineer working on something?

Uh, because he's always tied up going on the latest damn fool
ground mission the other PC's just *have* to go explore, rather
than being left alone to sit in engineering and "catch up on his
technical journals"  :)


**********************************************************
Paul Darius Owensby (pauld@athens.net) UIN: 7353691
ValuJump Lines:"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/
Home of ValuJump Lines, Pan-Imperia Shipyards, and Beginnings for DOS.
IMTU tc+(++) ?tm ?tn t4+ tg>+ ?tt to ru+(-) ge+(--) 3i+ -jt+ au+@ st+ ls@
	kk+ hi++ as+ va- dr+ so zh vi da sy- say++ dol++ ith-- mer ?lu ?su ?ge
	jd pi+@ he+ dt ps(+)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:47:16 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Disease and the Fall of the Ziru Sirka

At 10:39 AM 14/06/98 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:

>By the time we're colonizing other planets, we'll probably even be able to
>selectively supress the human immune system to prevent the common symptoms of
>allergies (he says, having spent parts of this spring sitting in a house with
>a case of kleenex, an El Nino inspired bumper crop of weeds, and a nose
like a
>faucet jammed open ;-)

I know the feeling well. I live at the eastern end of a large farming area
covered by prevailing westerlies. Summer is hell.

I've had hayfever since I was a little kid, and it runs in the family. I
can only presume that either my family's genes have something that insists
that grass pollen is evil, or some ancestor got herself allergic, and the
antigens have stuck in the family because they are constantly getting
activated.

- -- 

Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North
New Zealand

   

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 17:45:03 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Annual maintenance

At 11:10 pm 6/14/98 +1200, you wrote:
>I think perhaps that the maintenance fee should be related 
>to things other than the cost of the ship ("I've just added 
>a 10Mcr Laser turret, damn, now checking the Jumpgrid is 
>going to cost me an extra 10,000 Cr per year" - seems 
>strange to me.)

	But you've just complicated the jump grid by adding a new surface
feature ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 17:50:15 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Annual Maintenance (logs & transponders)

>From: dberry@hooked.net
>Subject: Re: Annual Maintenance & Starports
...
>Also, the ship's transponder log downloaded to Imperial authorities.  As
>part of certification process, logs checked for obvious illegal activity
>(violations of interdicted space, entry into Zhodani space, etc.)  Any
>oddities in the record will need to be documented.

  Ignoring the somewhat unpopular Virus-ancestor tamperproof/unfakable
MT transponders, how difficult is it to make a transponder system (or
electronic log) that is at least "tamper-evident" (as someone else put it)?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 17:51:36 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Police States

>From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
>Subject: Re: Annual Maintenance & Starports
...
>I also think that having an Imperium with a tradition of 
>not over-regulating things has advantages from a 
>roleplaying POV. Living in a police-state all the time can 
>get a bit depressing.

  The mind boggles to think what could be done with technology more
advanced than what we've potentially got now. Certainly your typical
conflict-based adventure goes to hell in a universe where everyone
has effectivley unalterable (retinas, DNA) ID's recorded.

  This is a big hassle with many of the cyberpunk dystopias on the
market, although most get around it by ignoring the possibility of
systemic intrusion into peoples lives. It's hard to say which course
is more unsatisfactory.

  My assumption is to assume (unrealistically, perhaps) that helpful
things like detailed medical data (i.e., DNA) _aren't_ on Imperial
ID cards (visas, passports, etc.), although I do accept that the 
latter almost certainly would exist.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:49:38 -0700
From: warlock@imagin.net
Subject: FLASH FLASH: Rare Traveller Items For Sale

If anyone is interested, the following items are available at:
http://www.dragontrove.com/gdw.html

AD299 - Alien Animals (Traveller, Grenadier)
        MINT in shrink wrap. $22.00
356B - Vilani & Vargr (Traveller, DGP)
       Near Mint $35.00 
PT77 - 101 Vehicles
       MINT $25.00 
DG164 - 101 Vehicles
        Near Mint $20.00 
PT78 - Starship Operators Handbook Vol. 1
       MINT $40.00 
TM83 - Starship Operators Manual Vol.1 (Traveller, DGP)
       Near Mint, price tag mark on cover. $32.00

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:24:37 -0400
From: "Scott Spieker" <scspieker@ncweb.com>
Subject: Classic Traveller - Adventure Gaming 12/81

Hi,
	I was at my FLGS this last week, and quite by chance I came across a box
full of old magazines and cast off sale items from other comic book and
hobby shops.  The box contained several issues of:

	Adventure Gaming, December 1981

	Within it's pages, there is two 'Classic' Traveller articles:

	1) The Zentag Connection - "A scenario for close combat on starships in
Traveller"
	and
	2) Stranded on Arden - A short Traveller adventure written by Marc Miller.


	These magazines are most likely cast offs from unsold stock that had been
warehoused for years, then finally purchased by the store owner.  All of
the books are in _MINT_ condition.  There are a total of 12 left.  If
anyone is interested, I will go and purchase these books and send them out
at my cost.  These items are selling for 50% off of the original cover
price which amounts to $1.50 US.  plus shipping.

	I'm not into this to make money, just proliferate the amount of traveller
material that is becoming hard to find anymore.  If someone wants to grant
me permission to copy the material to distribute it electronically, then I
will do so happily.  Otherwise, I am left with mailing the items where ever
they are wanted. 

	If you are interested, please respond privately to: scspieker@ncweb.com
and include Adventure Gaming in the subject line of the message.

Thanks,
Scott Spieker

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:24:37 -0400
From: "Scott Spieker" <scspieker@ncweb.com>
Subject: Classic Traveller - Adventure Gaming 12/81

Hi,
	I was at my FLGS this last week, and quite by chance I came across a box
full of old magazines and cast off sale items from other comic book and
hobby shops.  The box contained several issues of:

	Adventure Gaming, December 1981

	Within it's pages, there is two 'Classic' Traveller articles:

	1) The Zentag Connection - "A scenario for close combat on starships in
Traveller"
	and
	2) Stranded on Arden - A short Traveller adventure written by Marc Miller.


	These magazines are most likely cast offs from unsold stock that had been
warehoused for years, then finally purchased by the store owner.  All of
the books are in _MINT_ condition.  There are a total of 12 left.  If
anyone is interested, I will go and purchase these books and send them out
at my cost.  These items are selling for 50% off of the original cover
price which amounts to $1.50 US.  plus shipping.

	I'm not into this to make money, just proliferate the amount of traveller
material that is becoming hard to find anymore.  If someone wants to grant
me permission to copy the material to distribute it electronically, then I
will do so happily.  Otherwise, I am left with mailing the items where ever
they are wanted. 

	If you are interested, please respond privately to: scspieker@ncweb.com
and include Adventure Gaming in the subject line of the message.

Thanks,
Scott Spieker

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #586
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, June 15 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 587



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

CT Books for sale
re: Brown Dwarfs
THUDDD 9 (Lab Ship): Ready for voting
T4 Character Generation
Classic books for sale.
Re: Annual Maintenance (logs & transponders)
Re: Annual Maintenance (logs & transponders)
More on Sword World names
Re: Firing CPR weapons in vacuum
Re: Firing CPR weapons in vacuum
Re: Firing CPR weapons in vacuum
Re: Planetary temperatures
Re: Planetary temperatures
Re: Disease and the fall of Ziru Sirka
Re: Jump exit points
Re: Annual maintenance

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:58:20 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: CT Books for sale

Greetings all,

I visited a local used bookstore this weekend and found a couple of CT
books that seemed good enough a deal to pick up and contact the list about.
 They are:

Supplement 2, Animal Encounters
Supplement 4, Citizens of the Imperium
Adventure 2, Research Station Gamma
Double Adventure 2, Mission on Mithril/Across the Bright Face
Adventure 1, The Kinunir

All are average condition - no damage, but the black on the covers has
weathered to dark gray in many spots.  What you might call working copies...

I paid $3 apiece for them; the bookstore, after I told them what I wanted
to do, said they'd take back any remainders (Nice people!  Then again, I
buy a LOT of used books from them...).  Anyway, if any of you want 'em (any
or all of them) at that price, let me know - I'll weigh them up and let you
know the postage...






Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:30:30 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Brown Dwarfs

>BTW, I was wondering about the "4.5 million degrees" that was mentioned
>in the article. Is that *core* temp?

Must be core - presumably the core temperature above which lithium would
have been burned, since some of these objects have singificant
lithium (or maybe the core temp for sustained hydrogen burning - I don't havce
my references handy.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:12:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: THUDDD 9 (Lab Ship): Ready for voting

Elvis returns and starts a punk band...the French repay their war
debt...the Titanic sails majestically into New York Harbor, smashing a
ferry with James Cameron aboard...

And THUDDD 9 is ready for voting!

Go to <http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/thuddd9.html>, where you'll
find all the entries.  The page includes a form with which you can
register your votes on the designs.  Let me know if you have any problems
with the form, or any other THUDDD-related questions.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:07:41 -0700
From: "Brannon \"Ben\" Boren" <brannonb@blarg.net>
Subject: T4 Character Generation

Hi All,

I'm toying with some mods to the T4 generation system, and want to solcit
some feedback. I have never used T4 before, but played CT long long ago.


1.	Players roll for starting age: 1=14, 2=15, 3=16, 4=17, 5,6=18
	Careers are limited prior to 18, to Army (probably planetary), Noble,
College or Merchant Academy (one penalty per year under 18), Entertainer,
and Rogue. Alternately the player may choose to forgo any career and
instead roll on the Common Skills table once for each year until he is 18.

2.	Free Skills based on SOC and EDU. These are inclusive, so if you have a
"B", you get the skill for both "A" and "B".

	SOC A=Carousing-1, B=Fencing-1, C=Art, Dance, or Music-1, D+=Diplomacy-1

	EDU A=Research-1, B=History-1, C=Philosophy-1, D+=Science or Performance-1

	My goal is to give the characters reasonable skills for their stats
(highly educated people should have certain skills, as should high social
class folks) 


3.	Roll once per 4 years on Common Skills tables for whole career. 

	I want the characters to have a broader skill set, but am wary of this
method. Perhaps instead I could allow the players to choose to take one of
their regular service rolls on the Common Skills tables instead of the
service skills tables each term? I'll probably put together an expanded
Common Skills Table, including more skills that I think should be on it,
like Performance. Has anyone done an expanded table of this type already?

	On a related note, I notice that there are certain skills which are too
rare, such as Gunnery, which only shows up on the Navy and Scout tables.
Don't the Merchants have Gunners? Has anyone put together a table for
randomly selecting a skill from ALL the skills on the list - it might be
interesting...


Comments welcome!

Ben

- --
Brannon "Ben" Boren
brannonb@blarg.net
http://www.mog.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:37:36 -0700
From: "Brian A. Howard" <bruadh@earthlink.net>
Subject: Classic books for sale.

Hello folks,

Sorry for the shameless plug, but a friend of mine has a complete set of
original 'Little Black Books' one thru three, including the box. If anyone
is interested the can bid on the EBay auction web site. Follow this link to
http://www.ebay.com and look up bree@auldbooks.com. FWIW the site is fun to
look at just for kicks.

Again, sorry for the shameless use of bandwidth.

Sincerely,

Brian A. Howard

Beware the sound of a Babel fish,
For a Vogon constructor fleet cannot be far behind.

http://home.earthlink.net/~bruadh/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:55:41 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Annual Maintenance (logs & transponders)

At 05:50 pm 6/14/98 -0700, you wrote:
>  Ignoring the somewhat unpopular Virus-ancestor
tamperproof/unfakable
>MT transponders, how difficult is it to make a transponder system
(or
>electronic log) that is at least "tamper-evident" (as someone else
put it)?

Obviously the specific method anybody could come up with would be
totally irrelevant in the 53rd century, but here's a quick hack at it
in the 20th. The Imperial version would use whatever the equivalent
advanced technology is ...

Transponder could consist of three main components:

	- Black box controller, embedded deep within the ship for safety,
with links into the flight control CPU for data input
	- Three equally spaced transceiver units on the surface of the ship:
allows both 360 degree coverage and redundancy in case of "damage"
	- Carefully calibrated encrypted data links between the controller
and the antenna units

The controller and transceivers are sealed, tamper-evident hardware:
any attempt to open them wipes the crypto portion but does *not* wipe
the log itself. The link between them is carefully monitored. Even
today, we can detect exactly *where* a break occurs in underwater
cable simply by injecting the right signal at one end. An advanced
form of this technology could monitor for most attempts to interfere,
tap, or spoof the connection between the controller and transceivers.
Again, this would be recorded, and would wipe the crypto.

The link between the transceiver and controller would be encrypted
and authenticated using something like public key crypto. Thus,
neither side would contain the info necessary to "crack" the other
side, only to verify the information and commands being exchanged are
valid. Attempts to interfere with the transceiver or link would be
recorded in the log. Attempts to actually crack the controller would
be recorded, and then the internal keys wiped. From that point on,
the transponder is effectively dead: it tells the world it's been
possibly compromised.

The actual transponder signals would be more than just the simple
"receive a ping, send a ping" of commercial transponders
nowadays--that could easily be spoofed simply by recording the signal
once and then replaying it as needed. Instead, they'd be
challenge/response, with cryptographic authentication.  The challenge
would be designed so that no ship ever issues the same challenge
twice, to prevent recording of the appropriate response. Ship name,
internal date/time, and a random sequence would be good. So a
challenge might be something like 

	"Challenge: INS Etro 1103-204 22:11:38.99 XR!@3"

The merchant ship's transponder would then respond

	"Response: March Harrier to INS Etro <encrypted>1103-204 22:11:38.99
XR!@3</encrypted>"

The response would be encrypted using the March Harrier's secret key
(stored securely inside the transponder controller when it was placed
in service)--hence it can only be decrypted using the March Harrier's
public key. The response would identify the Harrier outside the
encrypted block, of course. The INS Etro would then look in its
database, pull up the Harrier's public key and decrypt the message.
If the message decrypts properly and matches the challenge, all is
well. The Harrier can then counterchallenge the Etro. However, since
merchant ships probably don't carry around data on the entire
Imperial Navy, there's probably a standard naval key that's used to
generically identify INS ships.

But what if the MH has just entered this subsector from the next one
over? Assuming it's been moving fast enough that its flight plans and
ID data hasn't made it along the XBoat route and been disseminated to
all official points, the Etro can ask for the public key. Remember,
that's the key benefit of public key crypto--the public key is
*meant* to be broadcast.

	"Challenge: INS Etro to March Harrier: Unknown Key"

	"Response: March Harrier to INS Etro: <key data>"

Upon receiving a key request, the transponder would send its public
key. But how does the Etro know it's a valid key? Simple, each
transponder key is countersigned by the issuing authority's key. And
there wouldn't be many of those, and they wouldn't change very
frequently, so the Etro will have all of those. It simply checks the
signature on the MH's key, verifies it's a legitimate transponder
key, and then uses the transponder key to verify the original
response.

There would be a limited number of authorities actually capable of
generating and authenticating the original key. I'd probably have a
"transponder factory" on the Sector capital, which would produce all
the non-military transponders needed in the sector. They'd be shipped
to the various shipyards for installation as needed (ADVENTURE HOOK!
this, of course, means there are shipments of valid, unused
transponders to be hijacked, storage facilities containing useful
transponders, etc., etc.--PCs can either be providing security, or
trying to break it, depending on whether you want them to be good
guys or bad guys ...)

Part of the transponder data will probably be easily changeable: ship
name, ship's master, etc. But each transponder will have a unique ID
and authentication key. Thus, when the ship is sold and the new owner
renames it, the transponder is still the same. The ship can be traced
all the way back to the original shipyard where the transponder was
installed, much like a VIN.

On the military side, it probably gets more complex. First, there's
the generic "Imperial Naval Vessel" transponder code, used to respond
to civilian queries. Then, each ship will also have its own unique ID
used in military to military queries. The Navy will no doubt have its
own certification authorities, probably hierarchical as well.
Likewise IISS. The proper authentication codes may even be changed on
a periodic basis for local operations.

Weaknesses here: well, obviously TL15 computers can be expected to
make small work of 20th century public key crypto concepts. But just
plug in the TL15 version of the same concept.

Physical attacks on the transponder system are going to be extremely
difficult. Not impossible, just Impossible (if you get the
distinction). Likewise, cryptanalysis to try to record transmissions
and crack the private key, or reverse-crack the private key from the
public key (current estimates for the number of calculations required
to crack a high-grade public/private key range as high as the number
of protons in the universe...). Remember, the Imperium relies on this
for all kinds of purposes--the Navy uses it! So the resources
required are going to be beyond even most megacorps. Unless, of
course, you're running a "heroic" or "space-opera" style campaign, in
which the characters can accomplish superhuman feats beyond the rest
of humanity.

The weak link (and I use the term weak loosely) is going to be the
inventory transponders awaiting installation. Somewhere between the
factory on the Sector capital, and the ship it's finally installed
in, it might be possible to get hold of one. But again, the Imperium
is going to be fairly humorless about security. Think of the
president's "nuclear football" (case containing his launch
authorization codes). And even if you get hold of one, how do you do
so without anybody knowing it's gone missing? It's fairly easy to
disseminate a message along the XBoat route and otherwise identifying
transponder S/N 1230-8892-9945-3240 as invalid.

Best chance: find some government agency which has its own reasons
for creating bogus or otherwise non-normal transponders. Surely IN
does it, likewise the intelligence branch of IISS, and no doubt
others. Either find a reason for them to give you one, or find
somebody you can compromise/coerce into providing it.

All in all, I'd say they're out there--it'll just require a lot of
hard work, blood, sweat, tears, and creative thinking for players to
get one, unless your plot requires it (in which case you can just
issue it to them ...)
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:03:56 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Annual Maintenance (logs & transponders)

At 10:55 PM 14/06/98 -0600, David J. Golden wrote:

>The link between the transceiver and controller would be encrypted
>and authenticated using something like public key crypto. Thus,
>neither side would contain the info necessary to "crack" the other
>side, only to verify the information and commands being exchanged are
>valid. Attempts to interfere with the transceiver or link would be
>recorded in the log. Attempts to actually crack the controller would
>be recorded, and then the internal keys wiped. From that point on,
>the transponder is effectively dead: it tells the world it's been
>possibly compromised.

This could be a real pain in wartime if you get a hit in the transmition
lines. The system thinks it's being hacked, goes down and leaves you
looking suspicous in a war zone. Not pleasant.

- -- 

Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North
New Zealand

   

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:04:21 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: More on Sword World names

Peter Brenton did some excellent work on Sword World names and said:

>> This is part compilation or responses to date, part research (web
based).
<snip>
>>I haven't found Dyrwin, Hofud, or Enos.  Tyrfing is a bit thin, I'd
>>appreciate any references to any of these.

Hugh Foster then added:
>Isn't Dyrwin from The Weirdstone of Brisingamen ?


On Saturday, I finally got hold of _The Weirdstone of Brisingamen_ which
I'd been looking for for a while
and yes, Hugh had it right, this seems to be it with a slight spelling
variation:

Dyrnwyn - sword of Durathror (son of Gondewar), WoB, p.107-8

also, if anyone's interested:

Widowmaker - sword of Fenodyree, WoB, p.118


WoB has 'haunted' me (in the nicest possible way) since I was 10 and I can
*hugely* recommend it.

Having found little fantasy that I've enjoyed since _Lord of the Rings_,
this may be a 'juvenile' but is
full of atmosphere, excitement and mythology.

The page references above come from the copy I located, for which here are
details:

Garner, Alan
The Weirdstone of Brisingamen: A Tale of Alderley
London: Fontana, 1981   (first published 1960 by William Collins)
ISBN: 0 00 671672 5
2 maps and 224 pages.


Hope this is useful

tc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:43:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Firing CPR weapons in vacuum

In mail you write:

>>There's more than enough oxygen in the powder to sustain combustion, and
>>the only real problem I would see with an open system would be full auto
>>fire.  Using a sealed, caseless design (like the G-11) would end that
> problem.
>
> Quick question which I have wondered about since the T2000 days... Wouldn't
> a sealed, caseless design like the G-11 have severe problems with
> overheating and residue? And wouldn't the former problem be worse in a
> vaccuum?

Overheating could be a problem with any automatic or even semi-auto
design. You'd have to keep the cyclic rate down. One possiblity, since
a gun for use in space has to be able to tolerate low temps and very
high temps, would be to incorporate a small canister of liquid gas (CO2
or maybe N2) into the magazine, and set it up to carry off the excess
heat by running the gas through channels in the weapon and allowing it
to expand. Place the exhaust ports from the coolant properly and you
might even compensate for the recoil!

You shouldn't have any more residue problems than you have in air. In
fact, I'd expect *less* since it'll be *easier* for the gases to
escape. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:31:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Firing CPR weapons in vacuum

In mail you write:

> At 02:06 PM 6/14/98 +0200, you wrote:
>>Is it possible to fire a CPR  gun in vacuum ??
>>The problem , in my opinion, is in the combustion reaction in the
>>barrel!
>>And which action will be required to refire it ( only electric action-
>>"chaingun",
>>or is it possible to use recoil- and/or gas-operated receivers)!
>
> There's more than enough oxygen in the powder to sustain combustion, and
> the only real problem I would see with an open system would be full auto
> fire.  Using a sealed, caseless design (like the G-11) would end that 
> problem.
>
> Ammo stored in vacuum might case degrigation of the propellent after a
> time, but I imagine that special vacc-ammo would be produced.

The powder in guns is *completely* self-contained. It doesn't need any
outside material for the reaction to take place.

The *big* problem with guns in vacuum is the lubricant!

Without *any* lubricant, metal parts under pressure (as a number of
parts in a gun are) tend to vacuum weld. 

With the wrong lubricant, the volatiles will evaporate, and the stuff
turns into a mess that makes a better *glue* than lubricant.

You also have to be careful about what materials the gun is made of, or
else be sure to keep it somewhere where the temperature is somewhat
controlled. In direct sunlight it could heat to a couple hundred
degrees. Not enough to set off the ammo, but enough for thermal
expansion to *jam* the mechanism.

Left in shadow for a while, it might wind up at -100. That's not good
either. Steel gets *brittle* at those temps, and many lubricants freeze.

There's a lovely bit in one of F.M.Busby's books where a gangster type
has been covering some space crew with a gun. The whole group is suited
up, and they are in the shadow of the ship. One of the crew figures
it's been long enough, and goes for the guy. He tries to fire the gun
and it won't work, just as the crewmember had figured. Then comes what
he *hadn't* figured anyone would be dumb enough to do. The bad guy hits
the gun hard enough to jar the mechanism loose. And the round in the
chamber goes off. But remember that bit about steel getting brittle?
The effects are *worse* than firing with a blocked barrel. The gun
blows up in his hand, shredding it pretty good.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:48:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Firing CPR weapons in vacuum

In mail you write:

> Is it possible to fire a CPR  gun in vacuum ??

yes.

> The problem , in my opinion, is in the combustion reaction in the
> barrel!

The combustion all takes place *inside* the CARTRIDGE. No external
materials required.

> And which action will be required to refire it ( only electric
> action- "chaingun", or is it possible to use recoil- and/or
> gas-operated receivers)!

Recoil is still recoil. And gas still expands. But you'd have to adjust
the mechanisms a bit because the bullet isn't having to force all that
air out of the barrel, and the gas will expand out of gas ports faster.

But these should be minor adjustments, rather than calling for major
redesigns. 

See my other posts for the problems due to lubricants and temperature
extremes. 
 
But I expect that any gun that is designed with the possibility in mind
will have no problems. In fact, I bet that most guns produced on worlds
with spaceflight will be designed so they'll work under a wide range of
conditions because that makes exporting them easier. Guns might be
rated:

   Pressure (operational): Vacuum to 2 atmospheres
Temperature (operational): -100 C to 200 C
Warning! Weapon is *not* recoil compensated for zero gee use!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 23:16:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Planetary temperatures

In mail you write:

> At 11:58 AM 6/14/98 +0200, you wrote:
>
>>Actually, there is really two questions: At what temperature can a human
>>live (ie. be born, grow up, and have children) and at what temperature
>>can a human live for a time (ie. travel across)? I realize that TL will
>>enter into it, but can anyone give me some ballpark figures?
>
> Humans have thrived at very low TL's from -40C (Siberia, north slope
> Alaska) to +40C (Sahara, Australian Outback, American Southwest).  Much
> higher, and unacclimated people start dying of heatstroke very quickly.

I'm told that the record low in either Siberia or Antartica (I can't
recall which it was) isn't all *that* far from where you'd get CO2 "snow"!

> Humans adapt quickly, however, and within a few generations you'd find the
> population becoming more suited for the enviroment.

Yep. Just *try* living at a high Andean village. You might manage, but
you can't have kids (pregnancy is uniformly *fatal* to non-native
women). It takes generations of slowly moving higher up the mountains
(and losing a fair percentage of mothers and babies to health problems
brought on by altitude) before you can claim to be able to live there
rather than merely visit.

I rather expect that there are planets with "thin" atmospheres that
were settled by Andean Indians and by Himalayan/tibetan natives. By
Millieu 0 they'll be doing ok. But the typical visitor needs a
respirator to feed him oxygen. 

These folks can get by on about 1.5(?) psi partial pressure of oxygen. We
need 3 psi. It's likely that it's possible to go a bit lower, but I
doubt you'd get below 1 psi, even after generations of adaptation. 

For high pressure atmospheres, you need to keep the oxygen percentage
*down*, as oxygen quickly becomes toxic at higher partial pressures.

Somewhere I have a reference for the book/paper that covers the limits
of the human body (from an Air Force study back in the 50s).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:55:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Planetary temperatures

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>
>>Humans *can* survive air temperatures of 500 F if they are naked and it's
>>the *air* that's that hot (several of the volunteers in the experiment
>>that established this got burns under sweatbands they were wearing!).
>
> That reminds me of a problem I've had with my detailing of planets. Just
> when does an area become uninhabitable without advanced technological
> help? I have this TL 4 planet where the summer daytime temperatures
> reach 70 degrees Celcius in the tropics. Wouldn't that be too hot for
> the normal person to handle.

It's to hot to be very *active*. It's *not* too hot to survive. (158F
for those who care). There are places on *earth* that reach 130F and
the unofficial record is above 140. 

> Actually, there is really two questions: At what temperature can a human
> live (ie. be born, grow up, and have children) and at what temperature
> can a human live for a time (ie. travel across)? I realize that TL will
> enter into it, but can anyone give me some ballpark figures?

> Hmmm... I suppose it also makes a difference whether we're talking desert
> or jungle.

What makes more of a difference is the humidity. In high humidity, you
have to be *very* careful, as sweat quits evaporating, and that means
your body can't cool itself.

Two other very important factors. What's the average *daily* temp, and
what's the average *yearly* temp?

If you dig down a ways, you can reach soil that's at the average
*yearly* temp. Build your shelter that deep, and you'll be ok if that
temp is more reasonable. But that's pretty extreme.

If the average *dialy* temp is more tolerable (ie hot days, cold nights
as is typical in areas with low humidity and no cloud cover) you just
build using *thick* walls of stuff like adobe. By the time the heat of
the day has worked its way through the wals, it's nighttime and the
heat is welcome.

Note that *both* of these dodges are TL 0!!! Though admittedly, the
first one is a *real* pain without decent light sources.

As far as *low* temps go, There's no reason a TL 0 culture such as the
Inuit (Eskimos) couldn't survive all the way down to the point where
the oxygen starts to liquefy. There just have to be animals and plants
for food. And it would be best if there are plants available at least
part of the year, as well as more "normal" temperatures. 

Actually, now that I think about it, they might run into trouble about
the point where CO2 starts to freeze out. They'd have to be *really*
careful with exterior temps that low. CO2 freezing could block the
exits from the igloo, and they'd have to be careful to get water ice
not "dry ice" to melt for water. Bring the wrong kind into the igloo
and kill yourself.

It might be possible to survive at even lower temps, given supplies of
food and fuel. The most extreme case is in Fritz Lieber's short story
"A Pail of Air". It has folks surviving on an Earth that's been thrown
out of the Solar system. They'll die when all the supplies within
walking distance are gone, but since they were in New York (back when
coal was the most common source of heat) they'll last a while. It's
worth reading for ideas.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 23:30:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Disease and the fall of Ziru Sirka

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>
>>Actually, we can't cure *any* viral disease. Zip, none, nada.
>
> I think your information about that may be slightly out of date.
> I talked about that with my sister, who is a doctor, after the point
> was raised last time, and since then she's given me two or three
> articles from her medical journals detailing cures for various viral
> infections. Nothing spectacular, but they were viral infections and
> it was cures, not prevention. I'll see if I still have the articles
> lying around somewhere.

Please do check. I rather suspect that they are like the "cure" for
folks who can't handle the old rabies vaccine. They found that with
proper supportive care, you *can* live through rabies. But it's not
really a cure. You still have to go through the full disease. :-(

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:11:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jump exit points

In mail you write:

> This allows for exploring new systems where you have NO information about
> orbiting planets.

That's a *really* uncommon situation. Remember, *we* can't detect
planets within 6 parsecs because all we have in space is the Hubble
telescope, and it doesn't allocate that much time to it. Any starship
will be able to make observations as good as the Hubble's, maybe
better. 

And *real* observatories, out in the outer reaches of a system, using
(say) 10 meter mirrors will be able to plot planets on the other side
of the sector!

BTW, it's canonical that you have a fairly good chance of detecting
planets several parsecs away. Several of the old Alien Modules have a
section on exploring uncharted space. And it has you detecting planets
out to 3 parsecs, with some chance of not finding them (actually, of
not finding the *star*!).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 14:10:40 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Annual maintenance

On Sun, 14 Jun 1998, David J. Golden wrote:

> At 11:10 pm 6/14/98 +1200, you wrote:
> >I think perhaps that the maintenance fee should be related 
> >to things other than the cost of the ship ("I've just added 
> >a 10Mcr Laser turret, damn, now checking the Jumpgrid is 
> >going to cost me an extra 10,000 Cr per year" - seems 
> >strange to me.)
> 
> 	But you've just complicated the jump grid by adding a new surface
> feature ...

Are we stretching to keep the rule or what. What if there already was a
hardpoint socket there. According to all pictures of lasserturrets they
are retractable, and this is the position they will be inn when in jump,
so there is not really a new surface feature, as the turret doors had to
be there as part of the socket.


> -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #587
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, June 15 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 588



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Police states
Re: Jump exit points
Re: Jump exit points
Re: T4 Character Generation
Disease
Re: Firing CPR weapons in vacuum
Re: Jump exit points
Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music.
Snail-mail address for Loren?
Orbital Starports
re:Pirates
Re: Snail-mail address for Loren?
Re: Personal Computers in Traveller
Re: Police states
Re: Annual Maintenance (logs & transponders)
Intrusion / Computer skills (was Re: Personal Computers)
Re: Black Curtain
Re: Amber Zones
Re: Annual Maintenance (logs & transponders)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:09:45 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Police states

Steven Hudson writes:

>  The mind boggles to think what could be done with technology more
>advanced than what we've potentially got now. Certainly your typical
>conflict-based adventure goes to hell in a universe where everyone
>has effectivley unalterable (retinas, DNA) ID's recorded.
>
>  My assumption is to assume (unrealistically, perhaps) that helpful
>things like detailed medical data (i.e., DNA) _aren't_ on Imperial
>ID cards (visas, passports, etc.), although I do accept that the 
>latter almost certainly would exist.

I've come up with an idea that may at least complicate the life of future
law enforcement agencies: The Anonymity Virus. It's an artificial virus
that after injection makes its way out into every cell and goes dormant
until the cell dies whereupon it activates and destroy the DNA of the
cell, making it useless for identification purposes. A more advanced
version substitutes another, specific DNA sequence. I was going to write
it up for GURPS Bio-tech, but didn't get around to it. I don't know just
what tech levels and prices I would assign them in Traveller terma. TL 12
and 14 perhaps? The same cost as any other artificial virus? One problem
with the idea is that I haven't been able to come up with any legitimate
reason why any honest citizen would use such a thing (So far the best I
have come up with is some sort of religious injunction), so carrying such
a virus would propably be a criminal offense in itself. 


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:11:55 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jump exit points

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
>
> > This allows for exploring new systems where you have NO information about
> > orbiting planets.
>
> That's a *really* uncommon situation. Remember, *we* can't detect
> planets within 6 parsecs because all we have in space is the Hubble
> telescope, and it doesn't allocate that much time to it. Any starship
> will be able to make observations as good as the Hubble's, maybe
> better.
>
> And *real* observatories, out in the outer reaches of a system, using
> (say) 10 meter mirrors will be able to plot planets on the other side
> of the sector!
>
> BTW, it's canonical that you have a fairly good chance of detecting
> planets several parsecs away. Several of the old Alien Modules have a
> section on exploring uncharted space. And it has you detecting planets
> out to 3 parsecs, with some chance of not finding them (actually, of
> not finding the *star*!).

Wasn't there a huge debate here recently about how miraculous it was that we
have just now spotted something as huge as a brown dwarf?  And if scanning
distant space is so important, why isn't there a sensor check in the jump
procedures?  There's no way you could scan something like that precisely enough
from 9 light years away. Your data would be out of date and you couldn't be
sure enough about the distance to compensate.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:25:35 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Jump exit points

Joe Pettit writes:

>I prefer to think that you can sense gravity while in J-space.  Then you make
>tiny course corrections as you feel around in the dark until you think you're
>at the right location.

That would work too, but the standard explanation of how a jump drive works
has it that all calculations are done before you enter jumpspace and that
no corrections are made while in space.

>You'll probably feel the star's gravity ramping up
>first.  Then you start poking around at an appropriate gravity level (read:
>distance from star equal to destination orbit).  When you find a saddle
>point, you know you're close to an orbiting body.  You follow that up to the
>danger level (read: if you continue at jump speed, you won't have enough time
>to react and may crash into a planet).

Canon is clear on that point; you never risk crashing into anything. You are
always precipitated out at the jump limit, willy-nilly.

>Then you kill the engines and precipitate out of J-space.

A workable, but non-canon, jump drive.

>This allows for exploring new systems where you have NO information about
>orbiting planets.

You can do that anyway. You simply aim at the star instead.
 


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 06:43:11 -0700
From: "Suz Dollar" <suzd@pop.goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: T4 Character Generation

> 1.	Players roll for starting age: 1=14, 2=15, 3=16, 4=17, 5,6=18

I have had conversations regarding starting age possibly being variable under 
certain circumstances, but I wouldn't make it routine. Certain desired 
backgrounds make it suitable and maybe such a roll could be allowed at 
referee discretion, or roll 1D6 and a roll of of 6 or 5/6 allows you to roll 1D6-2 to 
determine how many years early the character hits their career.

> 	Careers are limited prior to 18, to Army (probably planetary), Noble,
> College or Merchant Academy (one penalty per year under 18), Entertainer,
> and Rogue. Alternately the player may choose to forgo any career and

I'd go along with the careers selected, except that college should probably only 
be allowed early with a certain minimum intelligence level, probably a very high 
one.

> instead roll on the Common Skills table once for each year until he is 18.

I'd be very careful with this. T4 already gives characters an almost insane 
amount of skills in comparison with CT, less so in comparison with Adv MT 
generation. This applies to points 2 & 3, as well.
 
> 	On a related note, I notice that there are certain skills which are too
> rare, such as Gunnery, which only shows up on the Navy and Scout tables.
> Don't the Merchants have Gunners? Has anyone put together a table for
> randomly selecting a skill from ALL the skills on the list - it might be
> interesting...

Such a table might well be dangerous. Under what circumstances might a 
Scholar or Entertainer learn Gunnery? Merchants probably should be able to 
gain Gunnery skill. So find something that is duplicate on a table and insert it 
in its stead. No game comes off the shelf perfectly (no, please don't start on 
T4's faults, it has its share, maybe more than its share, but thats not what I'm 
getting at), be prepared to tweak, as your whole post is about. Just be careful 
of wholesale changes.

Suz


Suzette C. Dollar
#Traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:41:13 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Disease

Hans Ranke wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I've come up with an idea that may at least complicate the life of future
law enforcement agencies: The Anonymity Virus. It's an artificial virus
that after injection makes its way out into every cell and goes dormant
until the cell dies whereupon it activates and destroy the DNA of the
cell, making it useless for identification purposes. A more advanced
version substitutes another, specific DNA sequence. I was going to write
it up for GURPS Bio-tech, but didn't get around to it. I don't know just
what tech levels and prices I would assign them in Traveller terma. TL 12
and 14 perhaps? The same cost as any other artificial virus? One problem
with the idea is that I haven't been able to come up with any legitimate
reason why any honest citizen would use such a thing (So far the best I
have come up with is some sort of religious injunction), so carrying such
a virus would propably be a criminal offense in itself. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Good excuse for an honest citizen to use an anonymity virus: uniqueness
protection. A society that can gengineer an Anonymity Virus can
also make clones, if they can get a DNA sample. Let's say you don't
want another you that can pass all your bioscan security wandering
around. A police state wouldn't allow citizens to do this, they'd try to
control illegal cloning instead.

Another reason for an honest citizen to have this virus: they don't know
they have it. A libertarian, criminal, revolutionary or simply anarchic group
disseminates the virus, making themselves unidentifiable and concealing
which people they are by making millions (billions) of other people
unidentifiable as well. I imagine a police-state society that depended
heavily on DNA-identification being devastated by a sudden anonymity
plague.

"But I AM the Grand Imperious Leader!"
"NEGATIVE IDENTISCAN. INTRUDER ALERT. FULL TERMINATION
AUTODEFENSE ENGAGED..."

This virus may have a very limited TL window for effectiveness. One
TL low, and DNA scanning isn't used...a TL or two higher, and biosample
scans may happen so quickly that the cell doesn't have a chance to
die. A hair higher, and biometric scanners may be able to scan DNA
without even taking it out of your body, at close enough ranges (like
having your hand stuck inside a scanning pod).

And heaven help you if the dormant DNA-destroying virus mutates, and
decides to munch amino acids _before_ the cell dies. Owch...


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:39:28 -0600
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: Firing CPR weapons in vacuum

>Overheating could be a problem with any automatic or even semi-auto
>design.

Yeah, but I was under the impression that a great deal of the heat
generated in a conventional firearm went out the ejector with the shell
casing. Specifically my question was referring more to caseless weapons
than vaccuum weapons. :-) What is the current real-world status on this?

>You shouldn't have any more residue problems than you have in air. In
>fact, I'd expect *less* since it'll be *easier* for the gases to
>escape.

Again, I was more referring to caseless weapons than vaccuum weapons -- I
was also under the impression that a lot of powder residue went out with
the shell casing. :-) I was told that test model G-11s had a problem with
fouling (when compared to similar conventional weapons).

The info on purpose built vaccuum weapons was interesting, though not quite
what I wanted. Of course, since this isn't the "ask Mr. Wizard" list, I
suppose I shouldn't complain.

ObTrav: I asked recently "Why does the ACR in Megatraveller have a smaller
ammo capacity than a standard, lower-tech assault rifle?" I was wondering
if there was some reasoning behind this. The only list response I got was
that it was to make the rifle lighter, because weight in a weapon was very
important. However, I am quite certain that there are better ways to make a
high-tech rifle lighter than cutting the number of rounds in the magazine
(superdense instead of steel, lighter composites in the stock, etc.). And I
question the assumption that the benefits of a lighter weapon outweigh the
benefits of having an extra 10-20 rounds or so in each magazine (especially
it's only a question of several hundred grams for the extras).

So I ask again, why does the ACR in Megatraveller have a smaller ammo
capacity than a standard, lower-tech assault rifle? Was weight really the
idea (especially when you consider that the weight of a personal weapon
means nothing in the MT game mechanics)?

Ciao,

- --------------------
Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net
- --------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 11:15:11 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jump exit points

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> Joe Pettit writes:
>
> >I prefer to think that you can sense gravity while in J-space.  Then you make
> >tiny course corrections as you feel around in the dark until you think you're
> >at the right location.
>
> That would work too, but the standard explanation of how a jump drive works
> has it that all calculations are done before you enter jumpspace and that
> no corrections are made while in space.

blah blah before... blah blah before... What are we firing a cannon or flying a
ship? Jump gates would be MUCH closer to jump tech if you don't do squat while in
jump space.

>
>
> >You'll probably feel the star's gravity ramping up
> >first.  Then you start poking around at an appropriate gravity level (read:
> >distance from star equal to destination orbit).  When you find a saddle
> >point, you know you're close to an orbiting body.  You follow that up to the
> >danger level (read: if you continue at jump speed, you won't have enough time
> >to react and may crash into a planet).
>
> Canon is clear on that point; you never risk crashing into anything. You are
> always precipitated out at the jump limit, willy-nilly.

Well, I prefer to think that is a safety device.  At jump speeds, a nano-second
too late would put you inside a planet. And it ISN'T that clear... i.e. say your
ship is destroyed, couldn't that  just as easily occur after the jump than during
or before?  It certainly doesn't say WHEN that jump mishap occurs.

>
>
> >Then you kill the engines and precipitate out of J-space.
>
> A workable, but non-canon, jump drive.

Cannon drives <pun intended> aren't  very well defined.  Thus anything defined is
non-canon.

>
>
> >This allows for exploring new systems where you have NO information about
> >orbiting planets.
>
> You can do that anyway. You simply aim at the star instead.

Very true... but I'm doing that with all jumps.  Point at star then search.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 1998 12:53 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music.

Kodo
Chant
Ray Obiedo
Gipsy Kings
Jars of Clay
Ottmar Leibert
Acoustic Alchemy
Steve Taylor
Newsboys
Enya
Rez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:06:57 -0600
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Snail-mail address for Loren?

Does anyone have a snail-mail addres for Loren Wiseman? If so, please email
it to me as I'm like to send him a copy of LOM. 

Thanks,
Paul Sanders
timmon@primenet.com

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 1998 13:14 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Orbital Starports

Steve,

Check out my tirade on starport traffic:

metronet.com/~washi/Tas/Calida_Orbital/

	RobNJonStarport.html

and an old script which needs updating:

	starporttrade2.html


I assume 95% of all traffic stays in orbit, while 5% of the
traders with ships 1000t and under will land.  95% of the
traffic can get pretty rough, but I assume a world with stats
A888888-D, with one neighbor one parsec away with similar stats
will have 

	182 traders landing per week
	3640 ships in orbit per week

	217 passengers throughput per hour
	36,493 passengers throughput per week
	
The groundport only needs 1 landing strip, and has 1 parkbay for
shuttles and 16 parkbays for traders.  2 shuttles are needed:
one 100t and one 1000t.

The orbital port, then, needs to talk to, register, patrol, and
perhaps offer terminal service to 3640 ships, plus it needs bays 
for the two shuttles.

I assume maintenance and construction hangars and drydocks will
only service a few hundred tons, so say a few thousand tons
displacement for them.  Not big at all.

Tell me what you think...

Rob

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 1998 13:29 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: re:Pirates

By sheer coincidence, I found a recent coffee-table book
on pirates at the bookstore this weekend.  It mentioned
that over 100 ships are reported as pirated each year
still, and that some jobs were hit-and-run while others 
lasted days.

Current piracy takes place through criminal organizations,
who can manage the overhead, of course.

Very very interesting to note is that corporations are
often quite embarrassed about being shanghaiied by 
pirates, and so many incidents go unreported due to pride
and possibly credibility issues.  "Can't you protect your
own ships?"

ObTrav:
Imperial corporations often do not report piracy, because
they have a tough-corporation attitude -- who would
think that some of their fleet is quite vulnerable due to 
a budget cutback 20 years ago?  Nobody, until our PCs
stumbled upon some corporate memo to some megaboss about
the fact that NONE of their 2,000 ton Jewell-class freighters
have weapons OR screens... yes, the same ones that carry
unrefined zuchai crystals...

Rob
IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:42:59 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Snail-mail address for Loren?

Quoth Paul Sanders (timmon@primenet.com):
> Does anyone have a snail-mail addres for Loren Wiseman? If so, please email
> it to me as I'm like to send him a copy of LOM. 

I don't have a _personal_ snail-mail address, but you could send it to the
general SJG address, something like:

	Attn: Loren Wiseman
	Traveller Line Editor
	Steve Jackson Games
	P.O. Box 18957
	Austin, TX 78760

By the by, my payment for LOM went out today.  I'm looking forward to it!

- ----------------------------*---------------------*----------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett /  Coming this summer!  \ IMTU tc+ tg++ ge+ 3i+ c+
  Volunteer Webmaster for /                         \ jt au+ st++ ls+ pi ta he+
   Steve Jackson Games'  /  http://www.sjgames.com/  \ kk+ hi+ as va++ dr ith-
     GURPS: Traveller   /    gurps/books/Traveller/   \ vr+ ne++ so+ zh+ vi da-
- -----------------------*-------------------------------*-----------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:52:51 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Personal Computers in Traveller

Michael Kent <mkent@atlantic.net> Wrote;
>What I'd really like to focus on, though, are rules for handling the
>interaction of PCs with personal computers.  IMTU, I envision a wearable
>PC, about the size of a deck of cards, with the power of what would
>today be a low-end supercomputer.  It is, of course, connected to the
>local network (ship-wide or world-wide) via high-speed, wide-bandwidth
>wireless connection.  Input/Output for the user is via several means.  A
>version of Glenn Grant's Smartglasses provides display output (a
>complete heads-up holodisplay, with eye and head position tracking), as
>well as audio output.  Input is via voice (using the Smartglasses), and
>also by means of a bracelet that senses both movement and neuromuscular
>activity to allow the user to "point-and-click", to handle "virtual"
>objects (but with no tactile feedback), and to "type" or "draw".  For
>those requiring tactile feedback, Data Gloves are available.  All of
>these peripherals talk to the personal computer wirelessly.

Surf to;
http://wearables.www.media.mit.edu/projects/wearables/

To see MIT's latest wearable computer concepts.  Pretty close to your
vision, though in its infancy of course.

>Given all of this, what are some reasonable rules for their use?  What
>do I do when the PC inevitably wants to write a new program to hack the
>net, or crack some megacorps' security?  How powerful would a 'smart
>agent' program be in searching the net for data useful to the PCs?

Most of the usefulness of such devices goes out the window when your
players visit a world at tech level 7 or less.

For more technologically developed worlds I see several liklihoods;

1). A device two or more tech levels higher than local TL will overpower
most local security (I am assuming that the person using the device is
trained in intrusion and computer here).

2). Many important systems on lower tech planets will have imported
advanced seccurity systems in place to specifically guard against #1.

3). It comes back to talent and opportunity.  A trained hacker in the right
place with the right access can get what they want, if they are lucky.  A
less skilled computer user will not be able to find the right approaches.
I think a hacker almost always needs the combination of intrusion and
computer to 'break' another computer to their will, unless some other
preparation has been done (stealing the root password is a good start).

For rules, one task is too few.  I had the idea once of adapting NetRunner
(A collectible card game) to hacking in traveller, but this requires a lot
of game time and isn't as easy as I thought to implement.

I usually settle on two primary tasks, but make the #1 roll truly
impossible until  some preparation work has been done (study the stolen
software code, grab a user access password, break in to get direct terminal
access, etc.)  I use current computers as metaphorical equivalents since
that is a realm we are all familiar with.

At the time of success of those rolls, the person has "root" and can do
what they please.  There is the possibility that someone will figure out
how to (physically) cut access or activate anti-hack countermeasures, or
otherwise 'shut down' the hacker.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:05:45 -0600
From: "Gordon Horne" <ghorne@shaw.wave.ca>
Subject: Re: Police states

>I've come up with an idea that may at least complicate the life of future
>law enforcement agencies: The Anonymity Virus. It's an artificial virus
>that after injection makes its way out into every cell and goes dormant
>until the cell dies whereupon it activates and destroy the DNA of the
>cell, making it useless for identification purposes. A more advanced
>version substitutes another, specific DNA sequence. I was going to write
>it up for GURPS Bio-tech, but didn't get around to it. I don't know just
>what tech levels and prices I would assign them in Traveller terma. TL 12
>and 14 perhaps? The same cost as any other artificial virus? One problem
>with the idea is that I haven't been able to come up with any legitimate
>reason why any honest citizen would use such a thing (So far the best I
>have come up with is some sort of religious injunction), so carrying such
>a virus would propably be a criminal offense in itself.

A very neat idea, and I think it would be quite easy to insert into a
campaign. The Solomani are generally agreed to have superior biological
theory and technology as a benefit of having developed science and
technology on the same world they evolved. CT Solomani government is also
intrusive and paranoid enough to have developed the technology for certain
of their agents (domestic or international). Once the existance of such
technology becomes known (even SolSec can't keep absolute secrets) the
MegaCorps would covet it. They too are involved in many activities which
they either do not want to be associated with or want to frame someone else
for.

Thus, I see this technology as being extremely illegal (posession is
considered proof of criminal or treasonous intent) but prevelant enough
amongst the big criminals (government agencies and megacorporations) that
small criminals (player characters) have a reasonable chance of obtaining
it.

It would not exist in I1, I2, LongNight or M0 (low tech and insufficient
paranoia on the part of the ace biologists) and would be exceedingly rare
in TNE (information might be slightly more common but available tech might
be insufficient to implement). Late I3 would be fertile ground for this
sort of thing.

I have concerns about the effeciacy of contaminating _every_ cell in the
body, but if we can have jump drives we can be allowed some hand-waving in
biology. Two points affect the game: Time is involved in full infection so
anyone using this tech would need to keep a stock of anonymous and imposter
agents on hand or allow for a delay in plans. DNA scanners in security
systems could be configured to look for the presence of the dormant virus.

Gordon Horne
#1001 921 5th Ave. S.W.
Calgary, AB    T2P 0N9
(403) 264-1280
ghorne@acs.ucalgary.ca

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:16:58 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Annual Maintenance (logs & transponders)

 
At 05:50 pm 6/14/98 -0700, you wrote:
>  Ignoring the somewhat unpopular Virus-ancestor
tamperproof/unfakable
>MT transponders, how difficult is it to make a transponder system
(or
>electronic log) that is at least "tamper-evident" (as someone else
put it)?


One could definitely have a system that can't have entries altered by having
transponder queries from other ships include a digital signature with an
encrypted time; you'd need the other ship's private key to fake such a 
message. With sufficiently complicated private keys these would be 
unfakeable. If every system has a traffic control radar that is continuously
pumping these messages out, you could tell everywhere a ship had been - 
deleted signals would show up as obvious gaps in the log.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:19:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brannon Boren <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Intrusion / Computer skills (was Re: Personal Computers)

> I think a hacker almost always needs the combination of intrusion and
> computer to 'break' another computer to their will, unless some other
> preparation has been done (stealing the root password is a good start).

I'm at work right now and don't have my T4 manual with me (shame on me),
but I don't recall the skill description for Intrusion saying anything
about computers. Mostly it is for burglary if I recall correctly. I don't
think tying the skills of burglary and hacking together makes much sense,
as the sets of people who have these skills are often very different.

You could create a separate Computer Security skill if you wanted, but I
think that anyone with sufficiently high Computer skill will know the ways
to circumvent the systems they work on (the backdoors).

Ben

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:35:30 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Black Curtain

> Was it ever discerned what was within the Black Curtain (TNE)? 
> Has it been used in anyone's campaign? 

U might want to try Chris Griffen's Domain of Deneb
(http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml) and go to the conspiracy
page.

Signs (mostly from Vampire Fleets) point to a Virus controlled empire of some
kind, but nothing official..  Think Vampire Fleets.  IMO they don't come out.
Anything that goes in doesn't come back...    

> Does anyone have a program for creating subsectors that look like those in
the
> books? The one's I've tried all are basic dotted line products. 

Try Jim Vasillas excellent Galactic v2.3 (w/ 2.4 due very soon).
(http://members.aol.com/jimvasilla/)

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:33:03 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Amber Zones

At 02:17 PM 6/12/98 -0700, Jim Cooper wrote:
>Douglas Glatz wrote:
>> The important thing to realize about Amber and Red Zones is that they are
>> designated by the TAS, not the Imperium....

>The question is, who tells TAS ???

IMTU, they are among the better long term conspiracies.  They have only one
major goal - maintenance of the TAS way of life, the selectivity, and the
freedom/privilege of the gentlemen adventures who make it up.  As a result,
much like Jane's of today, they pay in hard Imperial credits for anything
the Scouts, the Navy, and the BIA can tell them, and pay even better for
local agents on every planet to send them on the scene information.

Scott 
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:45:55 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Annual Maintenance (logs & transponders)

Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:55:41 -0600, "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
>The controller and transceivers are sealed, tamper-evident hardware:
>any attempt to open them wipes the crypto portion but does *not* wipe
>the log itself. The link between them is carefully monitored. Even
>today, we can detect exactly *where* a break occurs in underwater
>cable simply by injecting the right signal at one end. An advanced
>form of this technology could monitor for most attempts to interfere,
>tap, or spoof the connection between the controller and transceivers.
>Again, this would be recorded, and would wipe the crypto.

[more technology to make tampering with transponders almost
impossible deleted...]

As I said in my post on the subject, as technology for crime prevention
has advanced, so has the technology to get around it.  If something
stands in the way of ciminals and their money they will find a way
around it with new decryption methods, ways of getting past the
safety devices on the transponder, etc.  No body has ever made
a security system that there wasn't a way around and nobody has
ever made a bomb (or any other device) that could be diffused
(ie gotten around the security devices).  The real world doesn't
work that way.  As the technology increases, more tools become
available for security systems, but more tools become available
for contravention of security systems.

>Weaknesses here: well, obviously TL15 computers can be expected to
>make small work of 20th century public key crypto concepts. But just
>plug in the TL15 version of the same concept.

But you also need to plug in TL 15 decryption concepts too.


____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #588
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, June 15 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 589



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: T4 Character Generation
Re: Intrusion / Computer skills (was Re: Personal Computers)
Re: The Anonymity Virus
Re: Police states
Re: Firing CPR weapons in vacuum
Re: Jump exit points
Re: Black Curtain
Re: T4 Character Generation
Re: The Anonymity Virus
Adventure Seed
Re: Planetary temperatures
Re: New FFS2 Spreadsheet
Re: Black Curtain
Re: T4 Character Generation
Re: Black Curtain
Re: T4 Character Generation
Re: Anonymity Virus
Re: Annual maintenance
Re: Annual Maintenance (logs & transponders)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:50:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brannon Boren <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: T4 Character Generation

> I'd go along with the careers selected, except that college should probably only 
> be allowed early with a certain minimum intelligence level, probably a very high 
> one.

Excellent suggestion - Thanks.
 
> > 	On a related note, I notice that there are certain skills which are too
> > rare, such as Gunnery, which only shows up on the Navy and Scout tables.
> > Don't the Merchants have Gunners? Has anyone put together a table for
> > randomly selecting a skill from ALL the skills on the list - it might be
> > interesting...
> 
> Such a table might well be dangerous. Under what circumstances might a 
> Scholar or Entertainer learn Gunnery? Merchants probably should be able to 
> gain Gunnery skill.

I think that Entertainers could conceivably come by a great many
non-entertainment skills. The nature of their work is by definition not
regular, and they probably do just about anything to make a Credit
inbetween gigs.

But more generally, I think it is interesting to have one or two "odd"
skills in a character's mix. Most people don't fall neatly into one
career's skills. How diverse is the mix of skills among members of the US
military? We could probably find any skill on the list among that
population, right?

I'm not saying that all the character's skills should be random -
focussing them on a more likely set of skills makes sense - but I think
there should be one or two rolls that might come up with anything, and the
player has the chance to be creative about how they came upon that
particular skill.

Any input?

Ben

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 16:14:34 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Intrusion / Computer skills (was Re: Personal Computers)

>> I think a hacker almost always needs the combination of intrusion and
>> computer to 'break' another computer to their will, unless some other
>> preparation has been done (stealing the root password is a good start).
>
>I'm at work right now and don't have my T4 manual with me (shame on me),
>but I don't recall the skill description for Intrusion saying anything
>about computers. Mostly it is for burglary if I recall correctly. I don't
>think tying the skills of burglary and hacking together makes much sense,
>as the sets of people who have these skills are often very different.
>
>You could create a separate Computer Security skill if you wanted, but I
>think that anyone with sufficiently high Computer skill will know the ways
>to circumvent the systems they work on (the backdoors).

I should have mentioned it was a personal 'hack' of the Traveller (in my
case Mega-) system rather than a rule from a book.

The Megatraveller description of Intrusion skill says "The Individual has
experience in clandestine methods of acquiring goods that belong to others.
An individual with intrusion can pick locks, open locked safes, and
pockets."

I agree that computers aren't mentioned specifically.  However, I do not
think that computer skill alone is enough (The description if the skill in
Megatraveller is silent on this point).  The skill "computer" covers
network administration, hardware repair, and programming in one fell swoop.
While this is not necessarily completely crazy (esp. at lower levels) it
does seem excessive to include skillfully circumventing computer security
systems as a primary aspect of this skill.

Adding a seperate skill is always an option, but it has the problem of
adding that skill to the character generation process, and that's not as
easy.

Let me mention again that this is a personal IMTU hack and I'm not trying
to say any of you should do it.

Pete

                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:33:50 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: The Anonymity Virus

>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>Subject: Re: Police states
...
>I've come up with an idea that may at least complicate the life of future
>law enforcement agencies: The Anonymity Virus. It's an artificial virus
>that after injection makes its way out into every cell and goes dormant
>until the cell dies whereupon it activates and destroy the DNA of the
>cell, making it useless for identification purposes.

  That's quite a neat idea, although you might need to make it nanotech;
IIRC some tissues are already "dead", and having your hair/skin disintegrate
would be a noticeable side-effect, so you'd want a more sophisticated
control mechanism.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 08:11:14 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Police states

At 03:09 PM 15/06/98 +0200, Hans Rancke wrote:

>I've come up with an idea that may at least complicate the life of future
>law enforcement agencies: The Anonymity Virus. It's an artificial virus
>that after injection makes its way out into every cell and goes dormant
>until the cell dies whereupon it activates and destroy the DNA of the
>cell, making it useless for identification purposes. A more advanced
>version substitutes another, specific DNA sequence. I was going to write
>it up for GURPS Bio-tech, but didn't get around to it. I don't know just
>what tech levels and prices I would assign them in Traveller terma. TL 12
>and 14 perhaps? The same cost as any other artificial virus? One problem
>with the idea is that I haven't been able to come up with any legitimate
>reason why any honest citizen would use such a thing (So far the best I
>have come up with is some sort of religious injunction), so carrying such
>a virus would propably be a criminal offense in itself. 

In all of the 11,000 worlds of the Imperium there's bound to be a world
somewhere where privacy is considered a very important right. On such a
world a virus like that would be a perfectly legal way for a citizen to
protect his basic right. The more advanced version could well still be
illegal, but the first version might be available over the counter in any
chemist's shop. 

I'd make it have a limited duration though so PCs couldn't just load up on
it a go on a crime spree through the surrounding sector, because they'd
have to come back periodically, and the Impies are bound to keep an eye on
repeat vistors to that planet. This can be justified in game terms either
by mumbo-jumbo, techno-babble, or by saying that the manufacturer does it
on purpose to encourage repeat business.

As you might have guessed I like this idea.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 08:17:32 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Firing CPR weapons in vacuum

At 09:39 AM 15/06/98 -0600, Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
>>Overheating could be a problem with any automatic or even semi-auto
>>design.
>
>Yeah, but I was under the impression that a great deal of the heat
>generated in a conventional firearm went out the ejector with the shell
>casing. Specifically my question was referring more to caseless weapons
>than vaccuum weapons. :-) What is the current real-world status on this?
>
>>You shouldn't have any more residue problems than you have in air. In
>>fact, I'd expect *less* since it'll be *easier* for the gases to
>>escape.
>
>Again, I was more referring to caseless weapons than vaccuum weapons -- I
>was also under the impression that a lot of powder residue went out with
>the shell casing. :-) I was told that test model G-11s had a problem with
>fouling (when compared to similar conventional weapons).

The recent versions work fine. Both problems were solved by switching from
normal rifle propellant to high explosive mixed into a stabilisor that
gives it rigidity and moderates its burn rate. This gives a cleaner residue
that doesn't foul the chamber, and a higher ignition temperature, thus
removing the risk of cook-off.

>So I ask again, why does the ACR in Megatraveller have a smaller ammo
>capacity than a standard, lower-tech assault rifle? Was weight really the
>idea (especially when you consider that the weight of a personal weapon
>means nothing in the MT game mechanics)?

No good reason that I could ever tell.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 17:10:56 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Jump exit points

- -----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
Subject: Re: Jump exit points


>In mail you write:
>
>>> Because the variability is + or - 24 hours, which if you match
>>> velocity with the star would put you at +- 11 light-seconds for a
>>> planet comparable to earth (with an orbital velocity of c. 40
>>> km/second).  Even if you do match velocity simple acceleration by
>>> the planet can shift your exit point by over ten thousand kilometers
>>> (if you intersect earlier or later in its orbital path), though this
>>> is probably safely ignorable under normal circumstances.
>
>> You seem to have ignored the other two paragraphs that went with this
>> post.....
>>
>> Once you exit J space you fall back under Newtonian laws. The plus or
minus
>> 24 hours could (and I believe does) exist to reflect the distance from
one
>> side of a hex to the other.  The navigator WOULD calculate the location
of
>> your destination down to the second and bring you out of jump at the
point
>> where it would be on an intercept course moving at the exact speed it had
>> attained when it entered jump.  Whether it takes 144 hours or 182  or
more
>> probably somewhere in between depends on where the jump exit point is
>> calculated to be.  The program would run the orbits of all gravity wells
in
>> the new system  looking for the optimum exit point based on your present
>> heading and speed.  I believe that once committed it would give a short
>> countdown (5-10 secs) to allow for it to include its exact present
location
>> so that it WILL know to the second when it will need to exit jump space.
>>
>> This to me is the only way it makes any sense to have the 48 hour
deviation
>> in jump and it still be considered SAFE travel.  It is also the best
reason
>> to have TRAINED operators flying the craft and making minor adjustments.
>
>You seem to have a mistaken impression. You don't exit jump through any
>action of the crew. You *enter* jump deliberately. You come out
>automatically, regardless of any action takenm on the ship *short of
>blowing it up).
>
>So while you may be able to tell when you will exit jump *after* you've
>entered it, you don't know beforehand. It depends on variables that
>aren't well understood.

>
Excuse me but if you are programming the jump and you know precisely where
you will enter jump and you select precisely your exit point then you can
calculate precisely when you will come out.  There are a great many
variables (like you stated) that can't be factored in and that is why the
rules are written the way they are.

That doesn't mean my theory is incorrect and it is in keeping within the
GUIDELINES of the written canon.  I never said that there wouldn't be
fluctuation (of up to 48 hours) BUT I tried to give a better accounting of
that time and why it is the way it is.  My INTERPRETATION of the 168 hours
plus or minus 24 is in keeping with the best Traveller traditions.

Say waht you will but I will repeat my thoughts again.  The closer the
physical distance is between jump entry and jump exit should reflect in the
lower time limit in jump space and vice versa for the greater distance.
Doesn't this make much more sense than just telling your navigator "well let
me roll the dice and see how close you get" (or some other nit noy comment).
>
>> It has been mentioned in several places that quick jump calculations get
you
>> into trouble and in the recent Traveller novel a poorly arranged
departure
>> kept them in system an extra 24 hours while they were maneuvering away
from
>> all the gravity wells.  Low level computers,  poorly trained navigators,
bad
>> LH, and ill maintained drives all lead to long in system hauls because
you
>> aren't coming out where the computer calculated you would.
>
>Don't base *anything* on the novels. They have *major* disagreements
>with game materials.
>
I'm sorry, you misunderstood.  I didn't base anything on the novel, it was a
quick to hand reference that a lot of people could refer to that kinda of
went along with my ideas.
>
>> I do want to emphasize the concept of proper planning and good
calculations
>> should lead to you being where you're supposed to be at the exact time
>> you're supposed to be there and it DON'T matter if it took 144 or 182
>> hours.  The time equates to which side of the hex or where in the hex you
>> exit.
>
>No. Again, you miss the important fact. You don't know how long the
>jump will take until *after* you jump. This is an inherent
>characteristic of jump drive physics (actually it's just the way the
>rules work).
>
I don't think I ever said that it didn't work that way at anytime.  What I
was trying to do was give people a better reason for the variable time in
such a high tech undertaking.  Not trying to change anyone's mind or rewrite
CT,  just expressing my take as a GM on why we can't do any better tahn
that.
>
>> THIS IS MY OPINION!
>
>That's nice. Pity the *rules* say something different.
>
What rules are we talking about.  I never offered to change the rules, just
gave another interpretation of them.  You know that they are still doing
that with ALL the religous works today too.  Does your game master let you
run his/her game, do you try to correct any infractions of his/her
interpretations AND I don't believe that there is a point in our current
science that says I'm incorrect in my interpretation.  In point of fact, I
might be closer to canon than you.  My way allows you to exit jump space at
a pre-selected location which is what you would do when jumping into the
voids.  A jump one ship needs to go jump two, he throws in some fuel pods,
calculates his jump one, does the jump, refuels, calculates his next jump,
jumps.  Seems to me that IS in keeping with Traveller canon.

I also read the first few pages of MOST of the Traveller books and you know
what, almost to the "t" they had something posted in them that read
something like this; "This book is offered as a guideline to help you run
your game." or something extremely close to that.


Pity you're so closed minded about this.
>--
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>
Thom Harris

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 17:16:45 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Black Curtain

At 03:35 PM 6/15/98 -0400, you wrote:
>> Was it ever discerned what was within the Black Curtain (TNE)? 
>> Has it been used in anyone's campaign? 
>
>U might want to try Chris Griffen's Domain of Deneb
>(http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml) and go to the
conspiracy
>page.
>
>Signs (mostly from Vampire Fleets) point to a Virus controlled empire of some
>kind, but nothing official..  Think Vampire Fleets.  IMO they don't come out.
>Anything that goes in doesn't come back...    

This has gotten me to thinking, whatever happened to Reference, the
computer complex maintained by the IISS?  IIRC, it was supposed to be one
of the largest computer complexes in known space.

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 16:38:48 -0500 (CDT)
From: Alan Peery <peery@io.com>
Subject: Re: T4 Character Generation

On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Brannon Boren wrote:

> I'm not saying that all the character's skills should be random -
> focussing them on a more likely set of skills makes sense - but I think
> there should be one or two rolls that might come up with anything, and the
> player has the chance to be creative about how they came upon that
> particular skill.
> 
> Any input?


I think you're going the wrong way around.  Have the player work on
the character conception *first*, including skils they particularly 
deisre.  Use the tables to guide when and where they pick them, and
then fudge the dice if they don't work they way you, the DM, think
they should.  The play is the important thing, not the rules.

Alan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 16:06:56 -0600
From: "Gordon Horne" <ghorne@shaw.wave.ca>
Subject: Re: The Anonymity Virus

>>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>Subject: Re: Police states
>...
>>I've come up with an idea that may at least complicate the life of future
>>law enforcement agencies: The Anonymity Virus. It's an artificial virus
>>that after injection makes its way out into every cell and goes dormant
>>until the cell dies whereupon it activates and destroy the DNA of the
>>cell, making it useless for identification purposes.
>
>  That's quite a neat idea, although you might need to make it nanotech;
>IIRC some tissues are already "dead", and having your hair/skin disintegrate
>would be a noticeable side-effect, so you'd want a more sophisticated
>control mechanism.

As i read the orignal post the anonymity virus destroys the DNA in a cell
upon that cell's death. Thus the physical characteristics of the now dead
cell would not change; your hair and outermost skin would _look_ perfectly
normal but contain no readable DNA.
Some points:
  It is essential to be infected with the virus long enough before the
illegal act for all hair and dead skin tissue to be replaced. (Shaving the
head and scraping the skin would speed up this process, but not to zero.)
  The virus must destroy DNA almost to the atomic level. Merely broken
genetic sequences, even severely fragmented ones, can be reassembled like
jigsaw puzzles. In fact, this method is used in present day gene
sequencing. See "The Code Breaker" by James Shreeve in Discover, May 1998,
p45-51 for a good laymen's discription.
  DNA identification is most often applied to hair, skin, blood and semen
samples.
  I'm not sure a virus can infect germ cells. I certainly don't think it's
a good idea. Therefore, infected men would _not_ be anonymous if the crime
were rape.
  The DNA security system would read dead tissue as anonymous, live cells
(e.g. blood) as infected, and germ line cells as the true identity.
  Evil thought: how about a security system which extracts a sample known
to be 'honest', the germ cells (sperm and eggs). Ouch;)

It certainly seems much simpler to wear a sealed environment suit to avoid
contamination. Rather obvious though in non-hostile environments. IMHO
there is no legitimate use for this technology. Police techs and others
would wear anti-contamination garb. Only covert (illicit) activities would
benefit. So, definitely illegal, no exceptions.


Gordon Horne
ghorne@shaw.wave.ca
=======================
Saru mo ki kara ochiru.
=======================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 16:19:57 -0600
From: "Gordon Horne" <ghorne@shaw.wave.ca>
Subject: Adventure Seed

A couple in the U.S. went to a police auction and bought a Winnebago that
had been seized in relation to drug crimes. Crossing the border into Canada
at some later date their RV was subjected to a routine search and illegal
drugs and weapons were discovered in a concealed compartment. (True story.
I was the arresting officer.)

Update the RV to a Scout/Courier or Free Trader and you've got a nasty
little surprise to spring on your characters at your discretion. IRL it
took less than a hour to trace the RV's lineage through the interconnected
police databases of the U.S. and Canada, and the couple was released with
full legal possession of the RV (but not certain contents) and a warning to
have the concealed compartments sealed. But, you don't have to be that easy
on your characters.


Gordon Horne
ghorne@shaw.wave.ca
=======================
Saru mo ki kara ochiru.
=======================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 23:26:27 +0100
From: Andy Gibson <Andy@yarm.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Planetary temperatures

Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes:
>
>Actually, now that I think about it, they might run into trouble about
>the point where CO2 starts to freeze out. They'd have to be *really*
>careful with exterior temps that low. CO2 freezing could block the
>exits from the igloo, and they'd have to be careful to get water ice
>not "dry ice" to melt for water. Bring the wrong kind into the igloo
>and kill yourself.
>
Actually, killing yourself with carbon *di*oxide is quite hard. The gas
causes a natural panting reaction in humans which usually leads to an
"I've got to get out into fresh air" response. The main killer is pure
nitrogen, followed by carbon monoxide (very dangerous but fairly
uncommon) and pure oxygen.

Nitrogen does not trigger *any* response in human lungs, so you can
breathe it until you pass out from lack of oxygen to the brain without
any "warning signs". Then you have about three minutes to live unless
someone hauls you into oxygenated air - being careful not to fall into
the same trap as you did (this is deadly serious - many workers in the
chemical industry have died this way and these days we take the threat
*very* seriously). 

Carbon monoxide takes the place of oxygen in the blood, but doesn't
provide the same benefits - the end result is as for nitrogen but the CO
can be mixed in just about any atmosphere as it gets taken up in
preference to oxygen (or, rather, it gets absorbed in ratio to its
concentration but does not get desorbed in the same way that oxygen does
so it builds up in the bloodstream, stopping oxygen being absorbed).

Oxygen is intoxicating to breathe, but most injuries and deaths I have
heard of stem from clothes or other "fuel" becoming drenched with pure
oxygen and then getting set alight. A standard boiler suit can burn
completely in *seconds* if it is soaked in pure O2, which means it burns
*hot*.

Cheers,

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 00:10:15 +0100
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: New FFS2 Spreadsheet

> * Added the CUSP - Combat Universal Ship Profile. This profile is intended
> to be used in Bruce Macintosh's starship combat system.

I must have missed Bruce's combat system - has it been posted on the TML or 
a website somewhere? (URL welcome).

Simon

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 00:10:13 +0100
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Black Curtain

> Does anyone have a program for creating subsectors that look like those in the
> books? The one's I've tried all are basic dotted line products. 

Not yet - Someone on the TML was writing a program that took sector listings 
(such as those included in Galactic 2.3) and turned them into postscript.  I do 
not think the program is finished yet, as I never noticed an "I'm finished" 
message.

My own Win95/NT program, written in Delphi, will (once I've finished it) create 
"proper" maps in a range of formats - including 1-page = 1 sector and 1 
landscape page = 1 subsector + UWP listings (like the original Spinward Marches 
little black book).  Work has been keeping me busy enough to drain me of time 
and energy for the last six months, but soon I hope to get back on the case.  
I've sorted out nearly all the thinking required, and just have to do the grunt 
programming.  The approach I have used for map symbols is to create a TrueType 
"Traveller" font that contains symbols for bases, planets, asteroids and so on 
that can be used for on-screen and paper output.  The advantage of using a font 
(like the postscript program, above) is that the image quality improves with 
bigger and better screens and printers, rather than being stuck with the 
limitations of bitmaps.  Basic colours to match the old GDW colour maps are no 
problem, even two colours for terran worlds is possible (blue on green or 
green on blue).  The bitmap method used in the Dulinor Suite (and others) 
generally looks better on screen at the moment, but that may be due to my 
own artistic limitations!  

Simon

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:48:45 -0700
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@pop.goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: T4 Character Generation

> I think you're going the wrong way around.  Have the player work on
> the character conception *first*, including skils they particularly 
> deisre.  Use the tables to guide when and where they pick them, and
> then fudge the dice if they don't work they way you, the DM, think
> they should.  The play is the important thing, not the rules.
> 
> Alan

Now here's a philosophy I like!

Suz 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 16:44:17 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Black Curtain

Simon Early wrote:
> 
> > Does anyone have a program for creating subsectors that look like those in the
> > books? The one's I've tried all are basic dotted line products.
> 
> Not yet - Someone on the TML was writing a program that took sector listings
> (such as those included in Galactic 2.3) and turned them into postscript.  I do
> not think the program is finished yet, as I never noticed an "I'm finished"
> message.

I have an old effort by a TML'er on my web site that turns out very nice
postscript maps. It doesn't take Galactic files but I have included some
Basic code to massage the 'Genie' sector files into the right sized and
sorted chunks.

http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/tprogs.html

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:25:07 +0800 (WST)
From: skribe <skribe@amber.com.au>
Subject: Re: T4 Character Generation

On 15-Jun-98 Alan Peery wrote:
> I think you're going the wrong way around.  Have the player work on
> the character conception *first*, including skils they particularly 
> deisre.  Use the tables to guide when and where they pick them, and
> then fudge the dice if they don't work they way you, the DM, think
> they should.  The play is the important thing, not the rules.

I agree with you, but I have to ask why you're even bothering to roll at all
if you're planning on fudging dice rolls to get what you want.
- ---
skribe <skribe@amber.com.au>

RELATIVES!!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:52:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: neo@total.net (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Anonymity Virus

Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> says,

[snip]
>I've come up with an idea that may at least complicate the life of future
>law enforcement agencies: The Anonymity Virus. It's an artificial virus
>that after injection makes its way out into every cell and goes dormant
>until the cell dies whereupon it activates and destroy the DNA of the
>cell, making it useless for identification purposes. A more advanced
>version substitutes another, specific DNA sequence.

Great idea, Hans. When I wrote up the Zoetec gene-scanner, I was worried
about how I might put it in my campaign without enabling all high-tech
governments to snoop on their citizen's movements virtually all the time.

>One problem
>with the idea is that I haven't been able to come up with any legitimate
>reason why any honest citizen would use such a thing (So far the best I
>have come up with is some sort of religious injunction), so carrying such
>a virus would propably be a criminal offense in itself.

This sounds a lot like the government's reason for denying strong
encryption to the public: "who but a criminal needs it?" Apparently they
think only criminals need privacy, therefore nobody should have a right to
it. But in fact everybody needs the right to go unidentified and anonymous
much of the time, for reasons other than hiding criminal activity.

Those who say that honest citizens don't need privacy or anonymity probably
aren't:
        - gay (or other oppressed sexual minority)
        - HIV-positive
        - radical political activists
        - members of unpopular religious sects
        - ex-convicts
        - Salman Rushdie
        - in a witness-protection program
        - alcoholic
        - sexual abuse survivors
        - stalked by a violent ex-spouse/partner
        - harrassed by fans or paparazzi

Indeed, when it comes to protecting their privacy, most people just aren't
sufficiently paranoid :)

 + GMG +

    -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                         <neo@total.net>
    Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
           "The future is simply amnesia in reverse."
                    -- Christopher Dewdney

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:54:08 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Annual maintenance

At 02:10 pm 6/15/98 +0200, you wrote:
>On Sun, 14 Jun 1998, David J. Golden wrote:
>
>> At 11:10 pm 6/14/98 +1200, you wrote:
>> >I think perhaps that the maintenance fee should be related 
>> >to things other than the cost of the ship ("I've just added 
>> >a 10Mcr Laser turret, damn, now checking the Jumpgrid is 
>> >going to cost me an extra 10,000 Cr per year" - seems 
>> >strange to me.)
>> 
>> 	But you've just complicated the jump grid by adding a new surface
>> feature ...
>
>Are we stretching to keep the rule or what. What if there already
was a

	Nope, just an off the cuff suggestion. Furthermore, you now have to
maintain that MCr10 laser turret itself, the interface to the ship's
power and control systems, etc., etc.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:50:36 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Annual Maintenance (logs & transponders)

At 06:03 pm 6/15/98 +1200, you wrote:
>At 10:55 PM 14/06/98 -0600, David J. Golden wrote:
>
>>The link between the transceiver and controller would be encrypted
>>and authenticated using something like public key crypto. Thus,
>>neither side would contain the info necessary to "crack" the other
>>side, only to verify the information and commands being exchanged
are
>>valid. Attempts to interfere with the transceiver or link would be
>>recorded in the log. Attempts to actually crack the controller
would
>>be recorded, and then the internal keys wiped. From that point on,
>>the transponder is effectively dead: it tells the world it's been
>>possibly compromised.
>
>This could be a real pain in wartime if you get a hit in the
transmition
>lines. The system thinks it's being hacked, goes down and leaves you
>looking suspicous in a war zone. Not pleasant.

	Sure--no system is perfect. But any damage to the transponder is
going to leave you looking suspicious anyway.Simply taking out the
transceivers antennas, for example--they're surface features,
probably not well armored (they *do* have to be able to radiate ...).
There would have to be a standard signal you could send claiming
transponder failure. Then, if you're really behaving yourself and
following directions *exactly* (lay in *this* course, shut your
engines down, reduce power to minimum ...), some flyboy will come by
for a visual ID. Then a brave soul with a bomb strapped to his chest
will board you and verify your ID that way. Further steps as desired.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #589
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 16 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 590



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Annual Maintenance (logs & transponders)
Re: Anonymity Virus
Re: Anonymity Virus
Pail of Air
RE: Jump and Maneuver: IMTU (long)
Re: Police states
Re: Firing CPR weapons in vacuum
Re: Jump exit points
Re: Planetary temperatures
Re: Images
Re: Annual Maintenance (logs & transponders)
Re: Black Curtain
Re: Images
Re: Annual Maintenance (logs & transponders)
Re: Pail of Air
Re: More on Sword World names
Re: Disease

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:04:40 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Annual Maintenance (logs & transponders)

At 12:45 pm 6/15/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:55:41 -0600, "David J. Golden"
<goldendj@pcisys.net>
>>The controller and transceivers are sealed, tamper-evident hardware:
>>any attempt to open them wipes the crypto portion but does *not* wipe
>>the log itself. The link between them is carefully monitored. Even
>>today, we can detect exactly *where* a break occurs in underwater
>>cable simply by injecting the right signal at one end. An advanced
>>form of this technology could monitor for most attempts to interfere,
>>tap, or spoof the connection between the controller and transceivers.
>>Again, this would be recorded, and would wipe the crypto.
>
>[more technology to make tampering with transponders almost
>impossible deleted...]
>
>As I said in my post on the subject, as technology for crime prevention
>has advanced, so has the technology to get around it.  If something
>stands in the way of ciminals and their money they will find a way
>around it with new decryption methods, ways of getting past the
>safety devices on the transponder, etc.  No body has ever made
>a security system that there wasn't a way around and nobody has
>ever made a bomb (or any other device) that could be diffused
>(ie gotten around the security devices).  The real world doesn't
>work that way.  As the technology increases, more tools become
>available for security systems, but more tools become available
>for contravention of security systems.
>
>>Weaknesses here: well, obviously TL15 computers can be expected to
>>make small work of 20th century public key crypto concepts. But just
>>plug in the TL15 version of the same concept.
>
>But you also need to plug in TL 15 decryption concepts too.

	I did make perfectly clear that it wasn't *impossible*--I agree
completely, there's absolutely no way to make a perfectly unbreakable
system. Doesn't stop anybody from coming up with something that's
"good enough." Banks get robbed; I don't stay awake at night worried
about my money. Brakes fail; I still drive faster than 5mph. You
could rob Ft Knox if you figured out the right way. But the
likelihood is low.

	And since I consider decryption/cracking to be part of cryptography
in general, it's already plugged in there, I just didn't explicitly
state it. The balance between the good guys and the bad guys always
shifts around a little, but it's fairly easy to assume that the
balance at TL15 is about where it is now. Perhaps the NSA can crack
any 2048-bit keypair they like; chances of almost anybody else doing
it are fairly slim. Now plug in the TL15 version of that concept.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 15:04:36 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Anonymity Virus

At 09:52 PM 15/06/98 -0400, Glenn Grant wrote:

>Those who say that honest citizens don't need privacy or anonymity probably
>aren't:
>        - gay (or other oppressed sexual minority)
>        - HIV-positive
>        - radical political activists
>        - members of unpopular religious sects
>        - ex-convicts
>        - Salman Rushdie
>        - in a witness-protection program
>        - alcoholic
>        - sexual abuse survivors
>        - stalked by a violent ex-spouse/partner
>        - harrassed by fans or paparazzi

Or just want to be able to enforce their right to privacy.


- -- 

Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North
New Zealand

   

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 23:24:21 EDT
From: RSpake2064@aol.com
Subject: Re: Anonymity Virus

i have some thing simular to this in my campaigns..  

it was designed by the leading over the counter chemical retailers (like most
painkillers like asprin today) in the terran confederation...  the pill was
marketted at the same time "Buzz Be Gone" and "Sober UP" was frist put out on
the market...  it was called the "Privacy Pill" and was supported by the
general public, the confederate senate (legislative branch), the confederate
supreme court (judical branch) and the confederate security council (the
military controllers- considered a joint cheifs of staff with the ability to
actually veto military use by the confederate chancellor)...   only the
confederate chancellor opposed the pill...  he was replaced in the next a
general election when the members of the confederate senate heard just how
much the people were tired of the old confederate chancellor...

of course this did nothign for the foriegn relations between the terran
confederation and the imps...  but then the terrans could have cared less... 

now, back to lurking for a little while...
richard

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:21:26 -0700
From: "Brannon \"Ben\" Boren" <brannonb@blarg.net>
Subject: Pail of Air

Leonard Erickson wrote:
>  The most extreme case is in Fritz Lieber's short story
> "A Pail of Air". 

Any suggestions on where to find it? Is it in a particular anthology?

Ben

- --
Brannon "Ben" Boren
brannonb@blarg.net
http://www.mog.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:23:53 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Jump and Maneuver: IMTU (long)

I tried to imply that there are *limited* functions that the software can 
allow.  Of course, with increased ability comes the chance to do more than 
the basics - which can form the basis for adventures all of there own. 
 (For instance, we had until recently, a Pilot-1 who was determined to 
increase her skills by flying all her maneuvers manually.  The scars on the 
ship and ship's boat will long attest to her attempts...  ;)

- ----------
From: 	David P. Summers[SMTP:summers@alum.mit.edu]
Sent: 	Saturday, June 13, 1998 12:16 AM
To: 	traveller@mpgn.com
Subject: 	Re: Jump and Maneuver: IMTU (long)

Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:24:05 -0700, "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>

>Automation is a wonderful thing.  Starships have the capacity to virtually
>fly themselves

I don't allow this for roleplaying reasons.  Important tasks should
be handled by players, not the automatic systems.  I also don't
care to render all player ship skill irrelevant.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 11:15:15 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Police states

On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> In all of the 11,000 worlds of the Imperium there's bound to be a world
> somewhere where privacy is considered a very important right. On such a
> world a virus like that would be a perfectly legal way for a citizen to
> protect his basic right. The more advanced version could well still be
> illegal, but the first version might be available over the counter in any
> chemist's shop. 

But how can a world like this enter the Imperium, when in the Imperium you
have no privacy at all. At least that is the way most on this list view
the  OTU. The use of transponders on all ships, logging of all ship,
passenger and cargo traffic at starports. How many people would go along
with this? If this is the way the Imperium works then it is bound to be
hundreds or thousands of liberation groups out there that fight this Big
Brother for freedom, free speach or what ever. There you have your
pirates, cosairs, free traders. They'll be people that will do anything to
make the Imperiums work that much harder.

> I'd make it have a limited duration though so PCs couldn't just load up on
> it a go on a crime spree through the surrounding sector, because they'd
> have to come back periodically, and the Impies are bound to keep an eye on
> repeat vistors to that planet. This can be justified in game terms either
> by mumbo-jumbo, techno-babble, or by saying that the manufacturer does it
> on purpose to encourage repeat business.

But then you'll have people on this world that will hate the Imperium for
keeping such a close eye on them. And these people will do what they can
to make the work of the Imperial attache that much harder. How long is the
Imperium willing to go, socially and economically in their quest to keep
everybody and everything under observation?

> Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 03:07:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Firing CPR weapons in vacuum

In mail you write:

>>Overheating could be a problem with any automatic or even semi-auto
>>design.
>
> Yeah, but I was under the impression that a great deal of the heat
> generated in a conventional firearm went out the ejector with the shell
> casing. Specifically my question was referring more to caseless weapons
> than vaccuum weapons. :-) What is the current real-world status on this?

I don't know about caseless weapons, but I *do* know that a lot of the
heat gets conducted from the casing to the receiver, and from the gases
to the barrel. Every semi-auto I've ever fired gets uncomforably hot
after firing a magazine or two. There's a *reason* for that wood
"forestock"! 

Heck, my measly .22 rimfire is quite warm after firing the 20 or so
rounds the tube magazine holds. 

>>You shouldn't have any more residue problems than you have in air. In
>>fact, I'd expect *less* since it'll be *easier* for the gases to
>>escape.
>
> Again, I was more referring to caseless weapons than vaccuum weapons -- I
> was also under the impression that a lot of powder residue went out with
> the shell casing. :-) I was told that test model G-11s had a problem with
> fouling (when compared to similar conventional weapons).

Could be. But that'd be more of a case of the casing carrying away all
of the *minimal* fouling that a given round would leave in the
receiver. With caseless, that small amount stays there and would build
up until it interferes with chambering the next round.

The residue from a single shot is prety minimal, even in the casing.
But let it build up and you are in trouble.

> ObTrav: I asked recently "Why does the ACR in Megatraveller have a smaller
> ammo capacity than a standard, lower-tech assault rifle?" I was wondering
> if there was some reasoning behind this. The only list response I got was
> that it was to make the rifle lighter, because weight in a weapon was very
> important. However, I am quite certain that there are better ways to make a
> high-tech rifle lighter than cutting the number of rounds in the magazine
> (superdense instead of steel, lighter composites in the stock, etc.). And I
> question the assumption that the benefits of a lighter weapon outweigh the
> benefits of having an extra 10-20 rounds or so in each magazine (especially
> it's only a question of several hundred grams for the extras).
>
> So I ask again, why does the ACR in Megatraveller have a smaller ammo
> capacity than a standard, lower-tech assault rifle? Was weight really the
> idea (especially when you consider that the weight of a personal weapon
> means nothing in the MT game mechanics)?

Consider that weapons such as the SKS only hold 10 rounds. Yet they
remain both popular and practical. Why? I'd say at least partly because
it's actually *easier* to load from a "stripper" clip than to change
magazines. And you don't have that big magazine getting in the way
(trust me, a 30 tound magazine *does* get in the way when going thru
brush, or especially if you are trying to use the weapon while prone).

Stripper clips are also *cheaper* than magazines. And you can get more
ammo per box that way. 

I think the main reason that the AK-47 (which is otherwise a *lot* like
the SKS) has the 30 round detachable magazine as standard is because it
has full auto as an option. Full auto is ok for area suppressive fire,
but wastes bullets.

Do note that in WWII and Korea the standard issue weapon was *not* full
auto capable. And that while the M-16 *is* there's a lot of debate
about how useful it really is to have this capability in every grunt's
weapon.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 03:21:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jump exit points

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>>
>> > This allows for exploring new systems where you have NO information about
>> > orbiting planets.
>>
>> That's a *really* uncommon situation. Remember, *we* can't detect
>> planets within 6 parsecs because all we have in space is the Hubble
>> telescope, and it doesn't allocate that much time to it. Any starship
>> will be able to make observations as good as the Hubble's, maybe
>> better.
>>
>> And *real* observatories, out in the outer reaches of a system, using
>> (say) 10 meter mirrors will be able to plot planets on the other side
>> of the sector!
>>
>> BTW, it's canonical that you have a fairly good chance of detecting
>> planets several parsecs away. Several of the old Alien Modules have a
>> section on exploring uncharted space. And it has you detecting planets
>> out to 3 parsecs, with some chance of not finding them (actually, of
>> not finding the *star*!).
>
> Wasn't there a huge debate here recently about how miraculous it was
> that we have just now spotted something as huge as a brown dwarf?

That's because they are *harder* to spot than stars or even large to
medium planets orbiting stars.

> And if scanning distant space is so important, why isn't there a
> sensor check in the jump procedures?

Normally you'll be using info from the "charts" (actually a database
much like the Astronomical Ephmeris or Nautical Almanac, but more
extensive). Any observations you make would merely be a quick sighting
on some "guide stars" to confirm that the ship is pointing in the right
direction.

> There's no way you could scan something like that precisely enough
> from 9 light years away. Your data would be out of date and you
> couldn't be sure enough about the distance to compensate.

Actually, you can measure the distance *very* accurately. You just take
sightings from two different "hexes". Add in a bit of trig, plus the
(known) locations of those systems (either from the charts or from your
own prior observations and or visits) and you can pin down the star's
position pretty well. And doppler shift will give you the "radial"
velocity (ie how fast it is moving towards you or away from you along
your line of sight). That lets you compensate for the distance it has
travelled in the intervening years.

Planets *do* require several observations either over months or from
different hexes to get a rough plot of their orbits. But it's still
doable. 

Also, if you have time, but are short on fuel, you can get the required
"long baseline" simply by coasting at high speed over a few AU before
leaving the system. At a mere 100 km/sec (easily achieved by most
ships) it takes 41.6 days to cover 1 AU. And during that time you can
refine your observations of the system you are leaving. So it'd
definitely be worthwhile for a ship exploring "uncharted" systems.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 03:34:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Planetary temperatures

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes:
>>
>>Actually, now that I think about it, they might run into trouble about
>>the point where CO2 starts to freeze out. They'd have to be *really*
>>careful with exterior temps that low. CO2 freezing could block the
>>exits from the igloo, and they'd have to be careful to get water ice
>>not "dry ice" to melt for water. Bring the wrong kind into the igloo
>>and kill yourself.
>>
> Actually, killing yourself with carbon *di*oxide is quite hard. The gas
> causes a natural panting reaction in humans which usually leads to an
> "I've got to get out into fresh air" response. The main killer is pure
> nitrogen, followed by carbon monoxide (very dangerous but fairly
> uncommon) and pure oxygen.

Alas, the way the "heat lock" (the entrance tunnel and associated
structures) in the typical igloo is built, it's the *lowest* place in
the igloo. This is so that cold air stays there and hot air doesn't
leave via it. So guess where the largest CO2 concentration would be?
:-)

> Nitrogen does not trigger *any* response in human lungs, so you can
> breathe it until you pass out from lack of oxygen to the brain without
> any "warning signs". Then you have about three minutes to live unless
> someone hauls you into oxygenated air - being careful not to fall into
> the same trap as you did (this is deadly serious - many workers in the
> chemical industry have died this way and these days we take the threat
> *very* seriously). 

Luckily, nitrogen has a boiling point *lower* than Oxygen, so you won't
get liquid (much less solid) N2 until after the oxygen has liquefied.
This is why they try *not* to have LN2 in wide containers open to the
air. They learned the hard way that after a while the nitrogen has
evaporated, liquefying an nearly equal volume of oxygen. And LOX is
dangerous! 

> Carbon monoxide takes the place of oxygen in the blood, but doesn't
> provide the same benefits - the end result is as for nitrogen but the CO
> can be mixed in just about any atmosphere as it gets taken up in
> preference to oxygen (or, rather, it gets absorbed in ratio to its
> concentration but does not get desorbed in the same way that oxygen does
> so it builds up in the bloodstream, stopping oxygen being absorbed).

More correctly, CO binds to hemoglobin strongly enough that neither
oxygen *nor* CO2 will displace it, except possibly at *very* high
partial pressures. So once a hemoglobin molecule has latched on to a CO
molecule, that molecule is *useless* for O2/CO2 transport until the red
blood cell it is in is recycled by the body. Which takes a week or two.
That's why CO poisoning is *cumulative*. Any that gets absorbed *stays*
absorbed for weeks. 

> Oxygen is intoxicating to breathe, but most injuries and deaths I have
> heard of stem from clothes or other "fuel" becoming drenched with pure
> oxygen and then getting set alight. A standard boiler suit can burn
> completely in *seconds* if it is soaked in pure O2, which means it burns
> *hot*.

Considering that some mines use cotton batting soaked in LOX *instead*
of dynamite, I can only agree!

Still, it looks like it might be fun to write about a neolithic culture
living on a planet where the *summer* temps are way below zero, and the
winter temps approach the point where oxygen liquefies. 

Don't make the mistake of trying to sell the natives steel tools. At
those temps steel is as brittle as glass. I think special alloys might
work, but I suspect that simple *bronze* would work well enough. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 14:00:02 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Images

On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Kurt Feltenberger wrote:

> I was wondering if anyone has the Zhodani Consulate logo scanned or knows
> what the colors are of it.  Also, I am looking for a scan of the Duke of
> Regina's own Huscarls shield from "The Spinward Marches Campaign"
> 
> And a good image of the Imperial sunburst would be nice, too.

I scanned and vectorized much of the MT logos into .wmf format.
You can fetch them at my website. There also are the Megacorp logos along
with some services and most of all factions.

I coloured some of them, although most of them had been black and white
only. When I'm able to convert them innto .eps format, I'll add the files
for non-Windows users.

L.A.

http://www.uni-koeln.de/~acp82/Ancients/Software

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:57:07 +0100 (BST)
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Annual Maintenance (logs & transponders)

>This could be a real pain in wartime if you get a hit in the transmition
>lines. The system thinks it's being hacked, goes down and leaves you
>looking suspicous in a war zone. Not pleasant.

But you shouldn't look suspicous, because if you are fool enough to
broadcast your transponder in a war zone you deserve to get shot ....

"Hi I'm an enemy merchant ship obviously carying caro, shoot me"

is what the transponder is effectivly saying, and saying it to everyone
all the time, so there must be a switch which cuts of the broadcast signal
for emergancies such as misjumping into a war zone, with the threat of
mutation if unjustafiably used ...

	Ewan Quibell
	Data Communications Technician        The Game's afoot:
	Computer Centre                       Follow your spirit, and apon
	University of Brighton                  this charge
                                              Cry 'God for Harry, England,
	E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              and Saint George !'

                                                    Henry V 3:1
	#include<stddisclamer.h>                    W. Shakespeare

	My spelling is entierly due to dyslexia, typoes and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 08:55:33 -0500
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Black Curtain

Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net> wrote:

> This has gotten me to thinking, whatever happened to Reference, the
> computer complex maintained by the IISS?  IIRC, it was supposed to be one
> of the largest computer complexes in known space.

Nothing was written about Reference/Cadion (Core 0140) in the New Era,
which is a shame since it was right next to the HubWorlds pocket empire.
It's safely outside the Black Curtain, although it's only a handful of
parsecs from the "event horizon".

On the other hand, I had some interesting ideas what Reference might be
like in the New Era, post-Virus.  Maybe if I have time in the next few
days I'll write them up and post them.  We'll see.

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:01:00 -0500
From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
Subject: Re: Images

At 07:00 AM 6/16/98 , Lars Adler wrote:
>On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
>
>> I was wondering if anyone has the Zhodani Consulate logo scanned or knows
>> what the colors are of it.  Also, I am looking for a scan of the Duke of
>> Regina's own Huscarls shield from "The Spinward Marches Campaign"
>> 
>> And a good image of the Imperial sunburst would be nice, too.
>
Apparently the Smithsonian Institution uses an Imperial sunburst as their
symbol as well.

My favorite of the sunbursts they use (and the one I've expropriated for my
web page) is http://www.nmnh.si.edu/images/si_btn.gif
The same on a black background: http://www.nmnh.si.edu/images/sibutton.gif

go to http://www.si.edu/si/icons to find several designs which can be
easily altered.

ObTrav: Was the Smithsonian still around when Cleon borrowed their symbol?
Who else was using it (it's pretty obvious) & for what?
>--------------
Michael Croft                                "Babeheart?  What's it about?"
mailto:Croft@neosoft.com            "It's about a cute little pig that 
http://www.neosoft.com/~croft    slaughters the English" -- Freakazoid
>--------------
    

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 04:13:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Annual Maintenance (logs & transponders)

In mail you write:

>  
> At 05:50 pm 6/14/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>  Ignoring the somewhat unpopular Virus-ancestor
> tamperproof/unfakable
>>MT transponders, how difficult is it to make a transponder system
> (or
>>electronic log) that is at least "tamper-evident" (as someone else
> put it)?
>
> One could definitely have a system that can't have entries altered by having
> transponder queries from other ships include a digital signature with an
> encrypted time; you'd need the other ship's private key to fake such a 
> message. With sufficiently complicated private keys these would be 
> unfakeable. If every system has a traffic control radar that is continuously
> pumping these messages out, you could tell everywhere a ship had been - 
> deleted signals would show up as obvious gaps in the log.

Actually, the *simplest* solution is likely the best. Have the entries
logged on some sort of "write once" media. That means it's *impossible*
to alter the data in a meaningful way (ie, you can possibly change
zero bits to ones, but it'd be rare that this would be at all useful). 

You *could* copy the media up to the point you wish to alter, and fill
in fake data from there on, but that gets rather complicated,
especially if the recorder automatically logs the insertion of media
*to* the media, or refuses to accept anything but blank media (you can
get around either, but it *does* complicate things).

If the media has an inherent limit on write speed, and it's not too far
above the rate that data is recorded at, then it becomes impractical to
tamper with the media, because it'd take so long (picture the problem
if you need to make an "edited" copy of a log with six months data on
it, and it'll take 3-4 months to write it!)

This sort of thing would make logs "secure enough" for several tech
levels. And by the time they become non-secure, you'll have a new
technology. 

You can't make it *impossible*. The idea is to make it take enough time
or money to be impractical.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 05:11:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Pail of Air

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>  The most extreme case is in Fritz Lieber's short story
>> "A Pail of Air". 
>
> Any suggestions on where to find it? Is it in a particular anthology?

I just checked and it's not a Hugo winner. It's also not in the
2-volume "A Treasury of Great Science Fiction". So I'd suggest checking
collections of Lieber's short stories, and also the annual anthologies
for Analog (and the Astounding ones that preceded them), and Galaxy and
F&SF collections. I'm pretty sure it appeared in one of those three
magazines as they were essentially the entire market at the time.

I think there's a web site that can do searches for that sort of thing,
but I don't know the URL.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 04:23:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: More on Sword World names

In mail you write:

> On Saturday, I finally got hold of _The Weirdstone of Brisingamen_ which
> I'd been looking for for a while
> and yes, Hugh had it right, this seems to be it with a slight spelling
> variation:
>
> Dyrnwyn - sword of Durathror (son of Gondewar), WoB, p.107-8
>
> also, if anyone's interested:
>
> Widowmaker - sword of Fenodyree, WoB, p.118
>
>
> WoB has 'haunted' me (in the nicest possible way) since I was 10 and I can
> *hugely* recommend it.
>
> Having found little fantasy that I've enjoyed since _Lord of the Rings_,
> this may be a 'juvenile' but is
> full of atmosphere, excitement and mythology.
>
> The page references above come from the copy I located, for which here are
> details:
>
> Garner, Alan
> The Weirdstone of Brisingamen: A Tale of Alderley
> London: Fontana, 1981   (first published 1960 by William Collins)
> ISBN: 0 00 671672 5
> 2 maps and 224 pages.

Great. You *do* know that there are one or two "sequels"? I can't
remember which, and my library is in storage. :-(

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 03:49:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Disease

In mail you write:

> I've come up with an idea that may at least complicate the life of future
> law enforcement agencies: The Anonymity Virus. It's an artificial virus
> that after injection makes its way out into every cell and goes dormant
> until the cell dies whereupon it activates and destroy the DNA of the
> cell, making it useless for identification purposes. A more advanced
> version substitutes another, specific DNA sequence. I was going to write
> it up for GURPS Bio-tech, but didn't get around to it. I don't know just
> what tech levels and prices I would assign them in Traveller terma. TL 12
> and 14 perhaps? The same cost as any other artificial virus? One problem
> with the idea is that I haven't been able to come up with any legitimate
> reason why any honest citizen would use such a thing (So far the best I
> have come up with is some sort of religious injunction), so carrying such
> a virus would propably be a criminal offense in itself. 

The problem is that a virus *requires* the cell to be *alive* for it to
do *anything*. So if the cell is dead, the virus can't activate.

On the other hand, it might be possible to build a gizmo that is
"tuned" to some sort of "resonant frequency" of DNA/RNA. It'd force it
to break down into the raw sugars and amino acids. It'd probably
denatured most proteins too. "Denatured" proteins tend to crosslink and
otherwise stiffen/coagulate. When you cook an egg, the protiens in the
wihte turn white and firm because they've denatured.

This would make a nasty, if shortranged weapon. Any part of the body
damaged by it would be somewhat like hard rubber/cooked meat in
consistency, and could *not* be "repaired" it'd have to be regenerated
or replaced. And of course, if you do it to something like an upper
arm, the lower arm will die too because theres no way to get blood to
it. God help you if you get a hit that cuts across your abdomen or
chest. Head hits are instantly fatal, of course.

But besides being a useful weapon, it'd be good for eliminating
evidence. First you play it over the body at full power, which
eliminates all hope of using DNA, blood types, cell types, etc for
IDing it.

Next you turn the power down a bit and sweep it all over the crime
scene, and keep sweeping it around until you reach a public area.
There'd be a good chance it's ruined any DNA you may have left behind. 

Reaching into my memories of some old SF and a couple of obscure
SF-RPGs, I say we call it a "Stokes Coagulator". It needs to be limited
to short range, and of course, it's *highly* illegal. Which just means
that it'll be found in the possesion of crooks, on Law Level 0 worlds,
and in the possesion of goverment agents. :-)

At first I thought it'd be a great weapon for defending high security
areas in secret government installations. Then I realized that the
*last* thing an intel op wants is a weapon that not only kills
infiltrators, but makes them harder to ID!

Oh yeah, something like reflec (ie a suit of "tinfoil") could likely
provide a defense against a coagulator.

Anybody have suggestions regarding size, weight and TL?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #590
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 16 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 591



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Police states
Re: Intrusion / Computer skills (was Re: Personal Computers)
re: Pail of Air
Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... )
Re: new combat system (was re: New FFS2 Spreadsheet)
Lab Ship Design Discussion
Re: Jump exit points
Re: Pail of Air
Re JG and the IRS
Computers
Re: new combat system (was re: New FFS2 Spreadsheet)
Nobles in the Spinward Marches
the Tek archive
Re: T4 Character Generation
Re: Police states
Re: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka
Re: Personal Computers in Traveller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 05:16:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Police states

In mail you write:

> But how can a world like this enter the Imperium, when in the Imperium you
> have no privacy at all. At least that is the way most on this list view
> the  OTU. The use of transponders on all ships, logging of all ship,
> passenger and cargo traffic at starports. How many people would go along
> with this?

Lots. You might want to check into the sort of records kept at airports
and seaports *now*. *Every* ship and plane is recorded. And commercial
carriers keep passenger lists. Also, airlines are doing checks on
passengers to screen for potential hijackers/terrorists. 

As for transponders, not everyone goes for the "they record everything"
bit. But transponders as a (relatively) unforgeable ID isn't all that
far fetched nor is it any more of an invasion of privacy than license
plates on cars or registration numbers on aircraft.

Hell, much of this will be driven by *owners* and by insurance
companies! They have goofd reason to want to be able to track these
expensive objects and the goverment would go along as it gets some
benefits also. 
 
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 08:05:07 PDT
From: "Paul Zumstein" <pzumstein@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Intrusion / Computer skills (was Re: Personal Computers)

>From: Brannon Boren <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
>
>I'm at work right now and don't have my T4 manual with me (shame on me),
>but I don't recall the skill description for Intrusion saying anything
>about computers. Mostly it is for burglary if I recall correctly. I don't
>think tying the skills of burglary and hacking together makes much sense,
>as the sets of people who have these skills are often very different.
>
>You could create a separate Computer Security skill if you wanted, but I
>think that anyone with sufficiently high Computer skill will know the ways
>to circumvent the systems they work on (the backdoors).
>

I don't have my copy of T4 with me either.  I don't think you have to 
tie the intrusion skill with burglary.  Intrusion could just be the 
familiarity with security methodologies and the way to circumvent them.  
This way it could be used with any number of other skill rather then 
having to create a new skill every time to want to fill a new niche.

PZ


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:58:52 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: re: Pail of Air

Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>  The most extreme case is in Fritz Lieber's short story
>> "A Pail of Air".


"Brannon \"Ben\" Boren" <brannonb@blarg.net> asked:
>Any suggestions on where to find it? Is it in a particular anthology?


As it happens I've just finished cataloguing over 1500 of my SF short
stories so the following may help:

_A Pail of Air_ (no doubt in any number of anthologies) was published in
Galaxy in December 1951.

It's in (and I doubt this is complete):

Secret Songs
Leiber, Fritz
Rupert Hart Davis, 1968

The Best of Fritz Leiber
Leiber, Fritz
Sidgewick and Jackson, 1974
Sphere, 1974

A Pail of Air
Leiber, Fritz
Ballantine, 1964

The Leiber Chronicles
Leiber, Fritz
Dark Harvest, 1990

Tomorrow's Children
Edited by Asimov, Isaac
Doubleday, 1966
Futura, 1974

Isaac Asimov Presents the Great SF Stories #13
Edited by Asimov, Isaac
DAW, 1985


It was also on the radio (presumably in the States) in 1956 and it may even
 be possible to buy a copy
of the recording if the following web site I only had the briefest of looks
 at is anything to go by:

http://www.antiqueradios.com/showcase/sciencefiction.html

SFH-112: X MINUS ONE
1- A Pail Of Air 3/28/56 (Joe DeSantis, Ronnie Liss) (Very Good, Network,
Science Fiction)
2- How To 4/3/56 (Les Damon, Joseph Bell) (Excellent, Network, Comedy)
Cassette Length: 60 Min.




Hope this is useful

tc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:08:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Black Globes (Was: Re: How dangerous is..... )

John R. Snead writes:
> >Grumble...make this kilograms instead.  0.28 liters/week.
> 
> This sounds like an *excellent* solution to the problem.  Since thrusters
> can't be used as weapons I'd say their output is something like neutrinos
> or gravitons.  Can anyone check the above math for me and see if this
> fueld consumption actually works? 

Bleh..didn't mention it before, but I checked my own math, and I miswrote in
that post (I was working from something else where I got it right, not sure why
I made that mistake).  1 kN should use 28 liters/week (2 kG/week), not .28 --
so 1 ton of fuel per 500 kN per week (or 1 ton of fuel per 83000 kN per hour). 
Still better than HePLAR, but your average ship probably has a fairly low
endurance (assuming 10 tons/dT and 1% fuel for 1g, it's only 8.3 hours of
thrust).  Aside from high-speed interplanetary travel this is tolerable (it
does mean that it's faster to go from primary to gas giant via microjump unless
the 100 diameter limit for the star intersects your jump path).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:20:43 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: new combat system (was re: New FFS2 Spreadsheet)

>> * Added the CUSP - Combat Universal Ship Profile. This profile is intended
>> to be used in Bruce Macintosh's starship combat system.
>I must have missed Bruce's combat system - has it been posted on the TML or 
>a website somewhere? (URL welcome).

It hasn't been posted or webbed yet. It's been discussed on the trav-tech
list; I'm tweaking based on early playtesting before I post it to the whole
TML. I'd be happy to send copies to anyone on TML who's interested, though.

Major features include
- -use of a (new) clean log scale for weapons ratings (which makes treating 
rapid fire weapons and large squadrons very easy - a squadron of a hundred
fighters just fires like one fighter with a +6 on its attack)
- -scaling that works from small ships to large capital ships
 through grouping weapons into batteries
- -non-ablative armour 
- -several layers of optional rules to make things quicker or more detailed
- -heavy weighting given to skills/crew quality
- -abstract (high-guard-esque) movement (but could easily be slotted into a
hex system like RPSC or BL/BR/mayday.)

Overall, I think it strikes a good balance with being more detailed than
Battle Rider, more accurate/modern than High Guard, and quicker than 
Brilliant Lances (though not as detailed as the latter). The major goal 
was to make a "High Guard" for T4/FFS2...the working title is a tossup 
between "Military Combat System (MCS)" and "Fusion Guard".

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 11:23:21 -0500
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Lab Ship Design Discussion

Since the THUDDD ships have now been posted, and voting has begun, I thought
I would offer up my feeble views on the designs and Lab Ships in general.

Disclaimer: I am a participant in the THUDDD competitiion, so of course many
of these views I used in my own design. However, several of these ideas I
_did not_ think of (I wish I had), and thus I didn't use them.

First off, I think all of the designs submitted were quite good. In previous
THUDDD competitions, I thought some of the designs (including my own, in one
case) were lemons. While I may have my favorite(s) in this competition, I
think that all of the designs were excellent and would serve as fine lab
ships.

Bruce Macintosh's design addresses the most serious problem of lab ship
design: What is a lab ship? An archaeological ship is different than a
survey ship is different than a stellar observation ship is different than a
asteroid geology ship is different from a zero-g laboratory is different
from...etc...His use of modules, while somewhat wasteful in space and money,
is the obvious choice for the ultimate in configurability. Personally, I
think his design is the best (mine own included) overall, although I think
it might be a little pricey for smaller groups.

The rest of us went for the "jack-of-all-trades" design...a ship that could
service just about any scientific task, although dedicated ships (or modular
ones like Bruce's) would out-perform them.

All of the ships had sensors, of course, the cornerstone of a lab ship
(along with the labs). Most of the ships stuck with 5 labs, in order to make
room for the additional equipment. Kudos to the design that managed to
squeeze in more...

Most of the ships had around 1G acceleration...a few had more. Personally, I
think more than 1G is excessive for this type of ship, but there could be
specific instances where more acceleration would be helpful. The jump-3
design was admirable, as well.

Several ships had ECM/EMM/Stealth features, to hide from the natives and/or
reduce emissions that might interfere with experiments.

I was surprised that most ships did not have a dedicated science computer,
but instead relied on the standard 3 computers. I would think you'd want the
scientists to have their own (so that their stellar atmospheres simulation
wouldn't interefere with the fusion plant monitor, etc.. :) ).

For long stays, crew comfort is a must. I was pleased to see that most of
the designs indivdual staterooms, and many provided gyms/lounges/libraries.
Sickbays are a must, especially for planetside missions (weird diseases,
animal attacks, etc...).

Personally, I think that a lab ship (actually, I think that most ships)
needs an air/raft...especially if it is going to be performing dirtside
missions.

Again, I thought all of the designs were quite good, and I congradulate all
of the designers for their work. I encourage all of you on the TML to go to
the THUDDD site and check out the designs.


+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+  |
|       vi+ da+                                                      |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                           |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:46:44 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Jump exit points

Leonard writes
> That's a *really* uncommon situation. Remember, *we* can't detect
> planets within 6 parsecs because all we have in space is the Hubble
> telescope, and it doesn't allocate that much time to it.
Also because HST isn't optimized for planet detection (no high-resolution
coronagraphic camera, and the "polishing marks" in the mirror (which are
very small, and well within spec) scatter light into a halo that makes planet
detection harder than it could be.

HST can see planets around alpha C. (if such exist; there's a hint in some
recent observations) and very young/hot planets in wide orbits (such a
discovery was recently announced, though I have my doubts.)

> And *real* observatories, out in the outer reaches of a system, using
> (say) 10 meter mirrors will be able to plot planets on the other side
> of the sector!
As Leonard says, big sensor arrays - including those on ships, which can
get much bigger than 10 meters - can detect terrestrial planets quite a 
distance away. I posted some rules for this a while ago (check the 
archives.) There's always a chance you'll miss a given planet, of course,
because it happens to be behind the star, or because the system is 
too full of zodiacal dust...

NASA has reasonably serious plans for "Terrestrial Planet Finder", a 
thermal-IR interferometer deployed to the outer part of our solar system,
which has a reasonable chance of seeing earthlike planets to about ten
parsecs (see http://techinfo.jpl.nasa.gov/WWW/ExNPS/HomePage.html ).
Traveller starship sensors are orders of magnitude better.

Joe Pettit writes
>Wasn't there a huge debate here recently about how miraculous it was that we
>have just now spotted something as huge as a brown dwarf?
This was done from the ground, where it's hard (atmosphere blurs things.)
Also, we've gone from having one known brown dwarf ten years ago to a 
couple of dozen, and once adaptive optics is available on 8-10m telescopes
we'll find zillions - and some planets, too. We've also found half a 
dozen gas giant planets around nearby stars, through an indirect technique
that requires years of monitoring.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:49:50 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Pail of Air

A good resource for bibliographies of SF authors is the venerable
Rutgers SF club site at:

http://sflovers.rutgers.edu/

leads to the Story and novel index at:

http://www.best.com/~contento/

A phenomenal resource!

searching for pail of air gives the following collection:

A Pail of Air Fritz Leiber (Ballantine U2216, Jul '64, 50, 191pp, pb) 
     A Pail of Air  ss Galaxy Dec '51 
     The Beat Cluster  ss Galaxy Oct '61 
     The Foxholes of Mars  ss Thrilling Wonder Stories Jun '52 
     Pipe Dream  ss If Feb '59 
     Time Fighter  ss Fantastic Universe Mar '57 
     The 64-Square Madhouse  nv If May '62 
     Bread Overhead  nv Galaxy Feb '58 
     The Last Letter  ss Galaxy Jun '58 
     Rump-Titty-Titty-Tum-Tah-Tee  ss F&SF May '58 
     Coming Attraction  ss Galaxy Nov '50 
     Nice Girl with Five Husbands  ss Galaxy Apr '51 

Brannon "Ben" Boren wrote:
> 
> Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >  The most extreme case is in Fritz Lieber's short story
> > "A Pail of Air".
> 
> Any suggestions on where to find it? Is it in a particular anthology?
> 
> Ben
> 
> --
> Brannon "Ben" Boren
> brannonb@blarg.net
> http://www.mog.net/brannonb/

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:04:18 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Re JG and the IRS

>Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 02:13:24 +0200
>From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
>Subject: Re: JG and the IRS
>
>William F. Hostman wrote:
>> If Mr Bludsoe makes any moneys from any product, the IRS can sieze the
>> moneys, and/or hold product and infrastructure for sale/auction in order to
>> pay off the tax lien.
>What did the guy do? Not pay his taxes? How long has this been going on?
>- --
>					 Volker
IIRC, exactly. As in failed to pay corporate taxes of some kind. Read about
it in Dragon Magazine.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 10:59:18 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Computers

The stats for the Models 0, 1, 2, and 3 all make sense IF you assume
multiple smaller installations throught the work spaces, rather than a
centralized machine (aside from the NetWare200.2.3 server ;).

Seriously, tho, I have always assumed distributed smaller computers, rather
than a single main-frame.

Also, one of the biggest problems for computer users IMTU is that all
"Standard Software" is source code. Most of the load time is actually
setting up the "Calls.h" and compiling. Actual Processors vary, and the
imperial requirement is that the run the "Imperial Virtual Computer". Many
milspec processors will use that as the basis for the processor. Most
civilian ones will use compilation or run-time emulation.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 02:56:12 +1000
From: Adam Kadmon <logras@goldweb.com.au>
Subject: Re: new combat system (was re: New FFS2 Spreadsheet)

I'll be interested.

Much appreciated.

Adam K.
(:?)


Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:
> 
> >> * Added the CUSP - Combat Universal Ship Profile. This profile is intended
> >> to be used in Bruce Macintosh's starship combat system.
> >I must have missed Bruce's combat system - has it been posted on the TML or
> >a website somewhere? (URL welcome).
> 
> It hasn't been posted or webbed yet. It's been discussed on the trav-tech
> list; I'm tweaking based on early playtesting before I post it to the whole
> TML. I'd be happy to send copies to anyone on TML who's interested, though.
> 
> Major features include
> -use of a (new) clean log scale for weapons ratings (which makes treating
> rapid fire weapons and large squadrons very easy - a squadron of a hundred
> fighters just fires like one fighter with a +6 on its attack)
> -scaling that works from small ships to large capital ships
>  through grouping weapons into batteries
> -non-ablative armour
> -several layers of optional rules to make things quicker or more detailed
> -heavy weighting given to skills/crew quality
> -abstract (high-guard-esque) movement (but could easily be slotted into a
> hex system like RPSC or BL/BR/mayday.)
> 
> Overall, I think it strikes a good balance with being more detailed than
> Battle Rider, more accurate/modern than High Guard, and quicker than
> Brilliant Lances (though not as detailed as the latter). The major goal
> was to make a "High Guard" for T4/FFS2...the working title is a tossup
> between "Military Combat System (MCS)" and "Fusion Guard".
> 
> Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:02:24 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Nobles in the Spinward Marches

Anyone know of a source for detailing the (upper) Nobility of the Spinward
Marches in, say, 1107 or so?  Either canon or IYTU?

Other eras welcome, but CT era preferred.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:13:54 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: the Tek archive

I've been in contact with the owner of the Tek archives.  Unfortunately, he
has dropped out of RPG and no longer knows where his archive disks are, so
unless the material was captured by one of the other archives that were
active at the time (he did  mention the Missouri Archive), the material is
likely lost.  :(

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:04:16 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: T4 Character Generation

At 09:25 AM 6/16/98 +0800, you wrote:
>
>On 15-Jun-98 Alan Peery wrote:
>> I think you're going the wrong way around.  Have the player work on
>> the character conception *first*, including skils they particularly 
>> deisre.  Use the tables to guide when and where they pick them, and
>> then fudge the dice if they don't work they way you, the DM, think
>> they should.  The play is the important thing, not the rules.
>
>I agree with you, but I have to ask why you're even bothering to roll at all
>if you're planning on fudging dice rolls to get what you want.

I use the dice a lot like Tarot cards.  A player with a clear concept is
welcome to just present his character to me, but I often encourage them to
start out with the usual chargen system, and then change any die roll that
does not fit.

For example - 

"Burly Bob is joining the marines!  Uh oh, a 2.  Hmmm.  I want him to have
made it, so instead of joining easily, he had to work at it, including
pestering people, private training, and a few months of bulking up."

"Bob gets six skills the first term from his promotion.  I want him to have
tactics, battle dress, rifleman, and brawling.  He rolled gambling and +1
STR.  I think the gambling does not fit his character, so how about +1 EDU."

And so on.  It lets the players set those things that matter, while giving
plot hooks for the areas of the character concept that have not been
fleshed out.

For my next game, we are using a skill system based on Castle Falkenstein.
Since  it was designed for LARP, it fudges a lot of things the skill
gearheads here would cringe over, but it is pretty neat all around.  There
are only 25 traits, including things as diverse as appearance, physique,
various forms of combat, and various academic areas.  They range from poor
to extreme, and anything below your level is a gimmie, while anything above
is unlikely.  At your level, there is tension, and I usually determine that
to advance the plot.

It is similar in a way to the basic Traveller 1-5 levels, but I like the
idea of a trait that is worse than average.  Most players starts with one
great trait, four good traits, and one poor trait.

Scott

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:20:26 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Police states

At 11:15 AM 6/16/98 +0200, you wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>> In all of the 11,000 worlds of the Imperium there's bound to be a world
>> somewhere where privacy is considered a very important right.

>But how can a world like this enter the Imperium, when in the Imperium you
>have no privacy at all. At least that is the way most on this list view
>the  OTU. The use of transponders on all ships, logging of all ship,
>passenger and cargo traffic at starports. How many people would go along
>with this?

How many people travel by commercial air travel in the US and Europe today?
 The checks on movement are quite extreme, which is why people who want to
smuggle themselves into and out of countries IRL use boats or overland in
general.  Since the checks are easier in the TU, it seems likely they are
going to do it.

It is impossible to "slip out under radar" on any world above TL9, given a
100d limit and a half assed sensor platform, which is arguably needed
anyway for traffic control.  Given that, and the high, high value of these
ships, they are going to take loss prevention steps.  Further, anyone
travelling is important, so the authorities are not going to be happy if
those important, rich people vanish.  (This is not just piracy loss
prevention - it includes mechanical failure, accident, and so on.)

When you consider the extreme damage that an armed fanatic can do with a
starship, and the incredible, unbelievable cost of Traveller starships and
crew, along with the astonishing resultant cost of passage tickets, of
COURSE they are going to want to track it.  If it is easy to do, and
expensive not to, then it is a no brainer.  It is the equivalent of
strapping hundreds of gold bars to every learjet, and putting a big
flashing sign on them.

To change this, all you need do is change two economic truths in the OTU.
First, if ship costs drop to a fraction of their present value, then they
come in line with present day ocean travel, and the loss of one is not
something that can fund a full investigation team.  Right now, a very nice
yacht, similar to the one I am considering holding my wedding on (Hey, for
four hours, I can pretend it is mine...) runs you a few million tops.
Stealing it and selling it would not let me live my life in luxury, since I
would be damn lucky to get a tenth of that.

Stealing even the smallest tramp freighter will support a pirate band for
life.  Just look at the price tags - 333K for a modern yacht vs. tens of
millions of credits for a Traveller tramp freighter.

Second, if there is a place for the evil deed to occur, then you can have
unrestricted movement.  By allowing combat in jump, or extending the jump
limit out to Saturn, or something like that, you can provide a place for
things to happen.  You still need people scattered about enough that a good
sensor can't spot them all.  If the limit is far enough out that there is
no clear benefit to a main world, then I think you do have it.  There are
people all over the system, and it is a much harder task to watch who comes
and goes.

Scott

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:49:00 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka

Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes:
> Fungi are somewhat more likely to be able to attack off-worlders
> because they are in general looking for "simple organics" or complex
> organics they can break down. So they aren't as likely to be affected
> by biological differences.

Sure. Fungi are also (relatively) easy to cure, so while there may
be a few versions of Interstellar Athlete's Foot, none of them should
be that hard to deal with.

> So we could get *some* bacterial infections along the gangrene model,
> but more normal infectious bacterial diseases are unlikely as they
> won't have the right defenses, and will not be able to find the sort of
> cells they normally prey on. They are as apt to *starve* in a human
> body as to be recognized as foreign and removed!

Yes, but... bacteria on Earth have evolved to consume a wide variety
of substances. My sister & father both work in the chemical industry
and have seen several examples of unintentionally genetically engineered
bacteria being used to clean up toxic substances - in one case there
was an effluent pond behind a chemical company that had been there for a
long time (probably over 60 years) that was regularly monitored. One day
they discovered bacteria living in the pond that could digest some of
the toxic substances (petroleum by-products I think). Thus was born a
new bio-remediation project. If bacteria can do that in less than 60
years, alien bacteria can learn to love humans.

Of course, in general, I agree with you - there will be *some* bacterial
infections, but outside of a minor human racial homeworld, they'll be
rare.

> Actually, we can't cure *any* viral disease. Zip, none, nada. We know
> how to *prevent* them by vaccinating, but that depends on finding a way
> to introduce something into the body that will sensitive the immune
> system to the virus, but *not* give us the disease.

Oh yeah. Well, substitute "treatment" for "cure".

> But on another planet the odds are *definitely* against compatible
> viruses.

Totally. Except maybe on other human homeworlds, but even that isn't
a given.

> So by my figuring, #1 is fairly likely, but pretty easy to treat. #2 is
> less likely, but treatable *if* you are familiar with it.

Yep.

> #3 and #4 are pretty unlikely. In the rare cases where they occur, you
> may have *real* trouble.

And this, if I haven't already made it twice, is my point. (I don't
think my last big post was as clear as it could have been, but if it
was, please just skip to the next message).

Some of the previous arguments about the infamous "Plague of Duskir"
revolve around the fact that it's impossible that the Vilani would
_never_ have encountered an alien disease that's compatible with them.

Of course they would have encountered diseases - predominantly ones
caused my microorganisms: fungus, bacteria, parasites, etc.

All of these types of diseases are treatable and, usually, curable.
Even  for people with naturally weak immune systems (which the Vilani
may or may not have), there's is some drug, somewhere, that you can give
a sick person to treat the root cause of the disease.

BUT! It's really, really unlikely that the Viani ever encountered a
virus. Even if they did, they probably sterilized any hosts ASAP. The
concept of immunization is probably totally outside the realm of Vilani
medical knowledge. Up to their first viral contact, they've been able to
cure pretty much everything. Imagine Vilani doctors, desperately trying
to cure people who catch the flu - and given the rate of Vilani
scientific advancement, it might take them a while to figure out that it
can't be done.

The Plague of Duskir be damned - given the ease of transmission of
common Terran viruses, combined with slow travel times in the First
Imperium, I'd be willing to bet that the Long Night was the direct
result of Terrans exposing the Vilani and other minor human populations
to their beautiful assortment of viruses. It's hard to continue economic
growth when your population starts dropping off at 5-10% per year due to
the flu, chicken pox, etc, etc.

Ethan
- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:58:58 +0100 (BST)
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Personal Computers in Traveller

>I usually settle on two primary tasks, but make the #1 roll truly
>impossible until  some preparation work has been done (study the stolen
>software code, grab a user access password, break in to get direct
>terminal access, etc.)

Most hackers start with the idear "I'll hack ****** today" or "who can I
hack today ?" they hack to get user accounts etc via what ever means, once
they are onto the system they try to gain root access, once they gain root
access they try to find computers that are trusted to gain futher access,
generaly within the same organisation. Most hackers hack organisations,
not individual computers within the orgainisation (although you have to
start somewhere). The players would have to hack the orgainsation first,
just to find where the information they are looking for is, then go hack
the correct computer if it is online and turned on. By the orgnisation I
mean the computer network that is part of the orgainsation. (Please note 
the above is a sweeping generalisation, and to start going into specifics
of hacking would take a long time)

>I use current computers as metaphorical equivalents since that is a realm
>we are all familiar with.

Could we posibly base it on anything else ? I shouldn't think so. The
problem of this is that we ourselves now are only in the infancy of IT.
Computers have only been around for 60 years (discounting Babage),
networks for 20, and intergrated communication for around 5. Whatever
clames that people make about IT in the future will be nothing to what it
is realy like, IT may have no meaning ...

Example, 60 years after in invention of the horseless carrage, say 1900,
if you proclamed that in just 90 years the future of the horseless carrage
was :- 

there would be a horseless carrage, being controlled by a farm hand across
100 acers of seemless field, obtaining it's position on the earth, to the
nearest yard, from a network of objects, orbiting the planet outside the
atmosphere, while dispersing fertilizer on the field to the square yard
based on the exact yield of that square yard's corisponding harvest last
year, but not nessasarily the last harvest, to the exact amount needed,
the information for which is stored on a machine 10 miles away, which is
not attached by any wires to said horseless carrage etc etc etc etc etc.
You would have been put away for being insane ....

>At the time of success of those rolls, the person has "root" and can do
>what they please.

Should only be on one computer within the organisation, although once in
it is easier to hack further in.

>There is the possibility that someone will figure out how to (physically)
>cut access or activate anti-hack countermeasures, or otherwise 'shut
>down' the hacker.

As we are going by todays standards, unless you hack a large orgainisation
who values there data, and works a round the clock shift system
(governments, banks, big multinations etc) and you hack quiet, it may take
a while to be noticed, which may mean you are free and clear with the
data, especialy if you used forged ID to gain a net account, the chances
of physical diconection are small (you lose too many other services),
anti-hack measures are preventative, not active. If you try to activly
counter the hack, such as hacking the system where the hacker is or
denying service to that sight, you are yourself hacking and therfore in
contrvention of the 1983 computer misuse act (UK), although hacking
in self defence has never come up in a court of law, and using violence in
self defence against a violent act is permited, as well as reasonable
force in detention of a criminal, therfore active hacking in response
*may* have a presedence (any computer lawyers on the list ?). But the main
stumbelling block is that you need evidence collected proberly
inaccordence with the law to procecute them, which means you have to let
them hack for a certain time, you then have to trace them to a given time
on a given machine, get a court order and get the police to a machine at
the time when they are hacking you, to arest them, then show your evidence
in cort in such a was as a non IT person (the judge and jury) understands
it.

Sorry I'm rambling .... but I think the point I'm trying to make is, don't
go by todays standards when thinking IT in Traveller @ high TL, think what
todays standards should be, like tracing a hacker and having him arested
in 5 minets, on a TL9 world or above, apply todays standards to TL 8 etc,
but anything is likely posible in higher TL we have no idear. O and don't
let anyone start hacking unless they have Computer 4 or above ...

	Ewan Quibell
	Data Communications Technician        The Game's afoot:
	Computer Centre                       Follow your spirit, and apon
	University of Brighton                  this charge
                                              Cry 'God for Harry, England,
	E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              and Saint George !'

                                                    Henry V 3:1
	#include<stddisclamer.h>                    W. Shakespeare

	My spelling is entierly due to dyslexia, typoes and poetic license

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #591
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 16 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 592



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Anonymity Virus
Transponders
Re: Amber Zones
Re: Transponders
Re: Firing CPR weapons in vacuum
Re: Police states
Re: Police states
Where are they now?
Sensor Spoofs
Re: Pail of Air
Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music.
Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music.
Re: Where are they now?
Re: Annual Maintenance (logs & transponders)
Re: Police states
Re: Police states
Re: the Tek archive
Re: the Tek archive
Re: Firing CPR weapons in vacuum
Re: "Letter of Marque" - UPDATE
Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:09:19 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Anonymity Virus

Just a reminder: According to Starship Operator's Manual, by TL 14, DNA
scanning can be done non-invaseively. Thus it will image LIVE CELL DNA,
including any virus.

Also, remember that epidermal cells are dead already on the outermost few
layers. So the Nanite version might prevent your skin cells from leaving
readable DNA, but YOU will still be readable until the things trigger, and
then you die.

Also, remember that virii spread by infecting cells, so for saturation, it
would have to be active at "infection" in ordert to spread throughout the
body. And, if it eradicates the local DNA, said cell will become nouught
but a virii factory, if it continues to function at all. Sounds like a good
killer virus to me, probably taking about a week to kill someone.

Introduce it to a ship in a ration-pack, and everybody aboard is likely to die.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:32:36 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Transponders

>  Ignoring the somewhat unpopular Virus-ancestor tamperproof/unfakable
>MT transponders, how difficult is it to make a transponder system (or
>electronic log) that is at least "tamper-evident" (as someone else put it)?
>

Simple way:

	use a WORM (Write Once, Read Many) device of choice, tied into the
craft's Time-Base clock. While it can be erased, erasure consists of
writing all  "1"'s to the areas erased... obvious but erased. Put this in a
caseing where the  connectors are behind sealing tape, and the case has an
internal power backup, and has a continuity loop test run through
connectors internal to the case body that connect when sealed properly, and
write an all 1's error for each timebase period where the case is opened,
disconnected, or ordered off.

Add to this whole assemblage a dual antenna system; one for actual data,
and one to check the first, again writing a block of all ones on fail, on
it's own tracks.

All the above is doable with CURRENT tech, and not overly expensive.

the thing here is that annual maintenance then includes a "Liscenced
Technician" opening the case, replacing the media, and resealing it. Thus
ALL transponders will have a short "All-1" block.

also, keep in mind that you don't want to tweak with the TBC. Astrogation
requires quite precises timekeeping. Moreso than any land, air or sea
navigation. The effects of error in time-based location are measured in
kilometers per second of error. So the TBC will probably have very very
careful safeties.

IMTU, one of the first things players do is check their TBC's against local
time after jump. One of the important information transport commodities is
the "Bouncing Atomic Clock Set". This is a set of 10 very accurate atomic
clocks all sent on the same route, each on a different craft, and using
error averaging to set the base's/port's TBC set to match the SS capitol's.
Same technique, larger numbers from Sector Caps to all dependant SS Caps.
Multiples are used to allow for jump relativity errors; the more jumps, the
more clocks sent.

TBC's also compare to pulsar and cephid variable signals for additional care.

Also, IMTU, all TL12+ computers used for starcraft include a small cesium
decay clock (multiple small sample system, for safety). This provides the
time-index for the navigation software to calculate the location of
destination worlds.

Also, due to precision, and local TBC offset calculations, most subsector
scout administrations run the TBC correction programs, and also, based upon
the TBC of the SS HQ, set the local resurveys to as accurate a data as
possible. Thus the Imperial Coordinated Reference Time-base remains fairly
stable across the imperium.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:36:03 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Amber Zones

Scott Ellsworth wrote:
> 
> At 02:17 PM 6/12/98 -0700, Jim Cooper wrote:
> >Douglas Glatz wrote:
> >> The important thing to realize about Amber and Red Zones is that they are
> >> designated by the TAS, not the Imperium....
> 
> >The question is, who tells TAS ???
> 
> IMTU, they are among the better long term conspiracies.

I like YTU. I hope mine will be similar.
 
> They have only one
> major goal - maintenance of the TAS way of life, the selectivity, and the
> freedom/privilege of the gentlemen adventures who make it up.  As a result,
> much like Jane's of today, they pay in hard Imperial credits for anything
> the Scouts, the Navy, and the BIA can tell them, and pay even better for
> local agents on every planet to send them on the scene information.

I think this is the key that I have been lurking for, for my campaign
this fall. Thank you very much. I needed a reason other than "because
it's there" for my group of n'er do well adventurers to go galivanting
off into the wilds. What would YTU feel would be appropriate 'fees' for
such information on more or less fairly regular returns (I'm thinking
here that the PC's will haunt an area possibly 30 parsecs in
circumference over a number of years)? 
  
Jim

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 11:21:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Transponders

William F. Hostman writes:
> >  Ignoring the somewhat unpopular Virus-ancestor tamperproof/unfakable
> >MT transponders, how difficult is it to make a transponder system (or
> >electronic log) that is at least "tamper-evident" (as someone else put
> >it)? 
> 
> Simple way:
<example deleted>
The example ignores the simplest way of tampering with a transponder (or log),
which is simply replacing it.  Assuming that the distribution process for
transponders isn't totally clean (a safe assumption) getting a new one is
simply a matter of money and black market connections.  In addition, there's no
way for a recorder to detect someone filtering its _input_ (post-processing can
possibly detect fishy data).  If necessary, an exact duplicate of a log box can
be fashioned.

Forgery is _always_ possible.  It's just a question of making it expensive...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 14:32:44 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Firing CPR weapons in vacuum

> Do note that in WWII and Korea the standard issue weapon was *not* full
> auto capable. And that while the M-16 *is* there's a lot of debate
> about how useful it really is to have this capability in every grunt's
> weapon.

the M16A2 only does 3-round bursts, though it's easily alterable (or so the
armorers tell me).  

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:58:59 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Police states

At 05:16 AM 6/16/98 PST, you wrote:

>As for transponders, not everyone goes for the "they record everything"
>bit. But transponders as a (relatively) unforgeable ID isn't all that
>far fetched nor is it any more of an invasion of privacy than license
>plates on cars or registration numbers on aircraft.

The way I see it working, the transponder would monitor the sensor and
communications picture.  When somebody hit the off button for the
transponder, the system would record what was going on at that moment for
later review.  So if the Imperial offcial sees three ships manuvering for
intercept and the surrender or die message, he'd accept that as a
reasonable situation for turning off the transponder system.


- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:55:02 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Police states

At 11:15 AM 6/16/98 +0200, you wrote:

>But how can a world like this enter the Imperium, when in the Imperium you
>have no privacy at all. At least that is the way most on this list view
>the  OTU. The use of transponders on all ships, logging of all ship,
>passenger and cargo traffic at starports. How many people would go along
>with this? If this is the way the Imperium works then it is bound to be
>hundreds or thousands of liberation groups out there that fight this Big
>Brother for freedom, free speach or what ever. There you have your
>pirates, cosairs, free traders. They'll be people that will do anything to
>make the Imperiums work that much harder.

I live in the freest country on Earth.

On my car is an identifying number, which the police can use to,learn about
me.

To drive to work, I must have a liscence to operate my car, which entails
given the government all sorts of information.

To get my job, I had to give a urine sample to prove that I wasn't on drugs.

For my guests to get on their flights, they have to show picture ID.

The planes are carefully logged, tracked and checked.

I think I've made my point.

- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:39:29 -0600
From: chet-el@juno.com (Chester L Cox)
Subject: Where are they now?

This may be an old topic here.  If so, please forgive me and take out
your irritation by kicking the dog.

My question?  Has anyone heard from the good folks at Digest Group, the
original group?  Gary Thomas, Joe Fugate, Nancy Parker (who re-wrote an
article of mine to clean it up), those folks...?  Traveller the New Era
had to be a bitter pill for them to swallow, and I was really looking
forward to A.I. before I dropped out of gaming too.

For that matter, how about James King (of *Voyages*)?  Is he still at his
old address?

*jeep!
- --Chet

_____________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 14:35:07 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Sensor Spoofs

This is a topic I was never gear-headed enough to fool with IMTU...
we kind of abstracted and went story-style with things like sensor
ranges, information from sensors, that kind of thing. Probably because
of the space combat games based on the Traveller universe, sensors
got real complicated real fast. Now you can't move in an inhabited
system without a sensor array finding you, ID'ing your ship and
figuring out that your crew needs more zinc in their diet.

A few points I've been pondering, though...

In a JTAS Amber Zone, _The Ship in the Lake_, the characters are
sneaking onto a TL7ish world to salvage a crashed starship. The
balkanized, uncontacted planet is at the height of a Cold War, and an
unidentified starship might be just the thing to set off the war. How do
the players sneak in? "Standard Defensive Shields" on their scout
ship make them nearly radar-invisible, that's how.

What are they talking about? No Black Globes on a type-S scoutship.
What else could spoof radar?

How about the famous chameleon coatings on a starship? When you
make part of your ship black, your coating is absorbing visible light...
if the chameleon coat could also absorb radar waves, at least for limited
time periods or along certain faces, you'd be in business for hiding 
in-system.

Here's what I see from this: Ships above the TL needed for chameleon
hulls would be able to spoof passive radar sweeps, and even long
range active radar sweeps. Something more concentrated, like a laser
or energy weapon, would instantly overload the coating it struck, no
protection provided. 

The only way to detect a ship at long ranges is to see it - you'd have to
have a telescope pointed in the right direction, with the right focus, and
know what you were looking for. Bigger ships would be easier to spot, as
would ships providing a nice long maneuver drive flare. Ships presenting
other types of active emmissions (transponder signals, active sensor
emissions, etc) would also be easily spotted, and neutrino sensors can
pick up a fusion plant if you have an idea where to look.

Treating sensors like this would make the universe a little more interesting,
and a little more dangerous. Big fleets would be noticed pretty quickly,
but individual ships could sneak and lurk - not with impunity, but with
some success. They'd have to be small, though. And this treatment
wouldn't affect active sensors at combat ranges very much, so many
of the combat rules would stay similar. Since it takes big ships in
quantity to take worlds worth taking, the political changes would
be relatively small - and it makes things like spy ships doable, as well
as (shudder) pirates.

Further, making it hard to detect small ships makes all these
sub-1000tn patrol craft more sensible - if you can instantly detect every
threat that comes in-system, you make a few big high-G monsters and
pounce them on the threat when you see them. If you can't reliably detect
small ships, you will need small, dispersed patrol craft for system 
control - to improve the chances of one of your ships being close
when you detect an intruder, or when one reveals itself, and to increase
your chances of spotting a suspicious craft. (Note: Most canon
references to space combat & patrol duty seem to have limited
detection ranges as the norm, esp. ref GDP's Starship Operator's Manual
vol I when the old spacehand relates how his ship lost a power plant
when tangling with a Zhodani vessel.)

Like my idea about a 5000-ton max/Book2 ships TU, this idea would
make the game more character and story friendly. What effects would
this change have on the OTU?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:39:35 +0200
From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
Subject: Re: Pail of Air

Tue, 16 Jun 1998 05:11:14 PST shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

>> Any suggestions on where to find it? Is it in a particular anthology?
>
>I just checked and it's not a Hugo winner. It's also not in the
>2-volume "A Treasury of Great Science Fiction". So I'd suggest checking
>collections of Lieber's short stories, and also the annual anthologies
>for Analog (and the Astounding ones that preceded them), and Galaxy and
>F&SF collections. I'm pretty sure it appeared in one of those three
>magazines as they were essentially the entire market at the time.

I have it in a Danish translation (guess that doesn't help you much), but the anthology where it appears seems to be a complete translation of an english anthology called 'Gates to Tomorrow', edited by Andre Norton and Ernestine Donaldy. Can't give you a publishing date for the English-language anthology, but the Danish one is from 1977.

About 'A Pail of Air' it says: "Copyright 1951 by Galaxy Publishing Corporation. Reprinted by permission of Robert P. Mills, Ltd." if that tells you anything.

Hope this helps...

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk (home)
mse@oticon.dk (work)
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:00:06 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music.

Anonymous 4
Eric Bogle
Stan Rogers
Tangerine Dream
Supertramp
Mike Oldfield
Bach
Dream Warriors
The Arrogant Worms
Buffy Saint-Marie
Bruce Cockburn
Phil Ochs
Mozart
the theme music from Babylon 5
U2
Crash Test Dummies
Cowboy Junkies
Pete Seeger
Bob Dylan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 12:24:40 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music.

Also forgot:

Loreena McKennitt
Dire Straits
The Oyster Band
Canadian Brass

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:03:36 -0600
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Where are they now?

At 10:39 AM 6/16/98 -0600, you wrote:
>For that matter, how about James King (of *Voyages*)?  Is he still at his
>old address?

yes - James King was still at his old address when I spoke to him about nine
months ago.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:25:34 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Annual Maintenance (logs & transponders)

Tue, 16 Jun 1998 04:13:37 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
Erickson)
> This sort of thing would make logs "secure enough" for several tech
> levels. And by the time they become non-secure, you'll have a new
> technology. 
> 
> You can't make it *impossible*. The idea is to make it take enough time
> or money to be impractical.

The is actually the otherside of the coin from predictions
that advancement in technology well render us helpless to
high tech criminals.  The same advancements that make intrusion
easier also makes counter measures easier.

If you look at similar claims for new security technologies that
have been introduced, and why they failed to live up to those
claims (either to make the crimes "impossible" or to make them
so impractical as to be "almost impossible"), you notice the fact
that countering a  security system uses the same technology that
is needed to build it.  It doesn't lag a couple of tech levels
behind (even if one could come up with a reason why it wouldn't).
The problem with widespread security systems it that, by the same
token, knowledge of how they work (and can be countered)
also becomes widespread.  The only place you can really
have a security that is a class above those trying
to circumvent it is for it to be used only in selected
secret uses.  (And even then you may only be out classing
the criminals an not rival security organizations). 

> Actually, the *simplest* solution is likely the best. Have the entries
> logged on some sort of "write once" media. That means it's *impossible*
> to alter the data in a meaningful way (ie, you can possibly change
> zero bits to ones, but it'd be rare that this would be at all useful). 

> You *could* copy the media up to the point you wish to alter, and fill
> in fake data from there on, but that gets rather complicated,
> especially if the recorder automatically logs the insertion of media
> *to* the media, or refuses to accept anything but blank media (you can
> get around either, but it *does* complicate things).

This entire scheme depends on how secure a device is from being
tampered with while in the long term, unmonitored, possesssion
of those tampering with it. Form getting by the detectors that
should show up tampering, to simply removing the record of
tampering after you have opened it, I don't think this is
much of a deterant.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:44:21 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Police states

Tue, 16 Jun 1998 05:16:08 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
Erickson)
> Lots. You might want to check into the sort of records kept at airports
> and seaports *now*. *Every* ship and plane is recorded.

Not true.  Only commercial ships are recorded.  Our family
sailed boats in and out of Harbors at Buffalo, NY, 
Oceanside, CA, and San Diego CA without being recorded at
all.  

Similarly, at many airports the tower closes down
and all the staff go home and all the non-commercial
planes and non-regularly scheduled planes land without
being recorded.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:43:27 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Police states

dberry@hooked.net wrote:
> I live in the freest country on Earth.
> On my car is an identifying number, which the police can use to,learn about
> me.

The Car I drive doesn't belong to me :-) There is no 
official record link between it and me. There are probably 
a few gas stations that could (with the help of their 
security cameras) link it to my EftPos card though.
 
> To drive to work, I must have a liscence to operate my car, which entails
> given the government all sorts of information.

Yep, but my Drivers ID doesn't have a photo, and the 
address hasn't been correct in ten years. (It doesn't have 
my IRD number on it either). 
 
> To get my job, I had to give a urine sample to prove that I wasn't on drugs.

I have never been questioned about my drug taking habits. 
No one I know has except a friend in the army who got told 
there'd be another test in 6 weeks and if he failed he'd be 
discharged.
 
> For my guests to get on their flights, they have to show picture ID.

I never have to show ID except for international flights 
(passport required to board the plane - International 
treaty requirements I think, along with automatic pistols 
on the hips of airport security) My bags never even get 
Xrayed for internal flights. (At least they didn't find the 
replica pistol I put in my luggage - and apparently that 
Xray's a lot like a real Glock - as a friend of mine found 
out to his embarrassment at a Japanese airport.) I've never 
had carryon luggage checked except when travelling 
internationally.
 
> The planes are carefully logged, tracked and checked.

Entirely likely here, but there's no legal requirement for 
me to provide a real name to fly internally (unless I pay 
by credit card whereapon they want to know my creditcard is 
mine). So they may well have a careful record of a fake 
name.
 
> I think I've made my point.

I would have said that you've cast doubt upon your initial 
statement. New Zealand has laws preventing data matching 
between computer databases except in a few limited 
situations. (The Social welfare people are allowed to 
compare their records with a couple of other people.)
The IRD (our version of the IRS) apparently try to 
infiltrate people into the Census processing teams, so they 
can see the raw data for people's incomes, as they feel 
that people are more honest with the census people than the 
tax people - by law they're not entitled to that 
information. 

A story I heard that worried me about Europe. The British 
army had information that a terrorist was going to attack 
some of their  troops in Germany, in a particular town.

With the German authorities they went through the financial 
transaction records of the town, eliminating anyone that 
used something other than cash to pay their bills. 

They  got down to two suspects that paid everything in Cash 
- - one was a drug smuggler, and the other was the terrorist.

Now that worries me. 

The day I go for a job and the employer says that
according to my bank records I've been spending an average
of $200 a month on alcohol, so they can't give me the job,
that's the day that big brother will really have arrived.

Steve

Pay in cash - one day you may need it.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:58:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: the Tek archive

Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM> writes:

> I've been in contact with the owner of the Tek archives.

I assume you mean James.

>                                                           Unfortunately, he
> has dropped out of RPG and no longer knows where his archive disks are, so
> unless the material was captured by one of the other archives that were
> active at the time (he did  mention the Missouri Archive), the material is
> likely lost.  :(

While the Tek archive may be gone, I have a very solid lead on the entire
contents of the Sunbane archive.  As soon as I have a copy, I'll arrange
to make it available for the TML readership.

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting *  shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
       "Where am I... and what am I doing in this handbasket?"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 14:43:25 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: the Tek archive

- -----Original Message-----
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
To: Traveller Mail List <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, June 16, 1998 2:05 PM
Subject: Re: the Tek archive


>Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM> writes:
>
>> I've been in contact with the owner of the Tek archives.
>
>I assume you mean James.


Yep.  But since he's dropped out of the game, I thought I would protect his
name as much as possible, 'specially since I used Tek's lookup tool to find
him! ;-)

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:15:26 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Firing CPR weapons in vacuum

At 02:32 PM 6/16/98 EDT, you wrote:
>> Do note that in WWII and Korea the standard issue weapon was *not* full
>> auto capable. And that while the M-16 *is* there's a lot of debate
>> about how useful it really is to have this capability in every grunt's
>> weapon.
>
>the M16A2 only does 3-round bursts, though it's easily alterable (or so the
>armorers tell me).  

The -A1 was full auto, it was the hardest thing to keep grunts from
switching to rock-n-roll at the slighest provocation.  The M-2 carbine was
full auto, but a glorified pistol in most repsects.  I believe the first
real assault rifle was the Sturmwehr-44, which was the basis for the AK-47.
- --

+------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
+------------------------------------------+
| "or it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' | 
| "Chuck him out, the brute!"              |
| But it's "Saviour of 'is country"        |
| when the guns begin to shoot;"           |
+------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 20:27:44 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: "Letter of Marque" - UPDATE

Is it too late to order? My letter returned to me damaged!

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:24:02 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music.

Rob Prior wrote:

> Anonymous 4
> Eric Bogle
> Stan Rogers
> Tangerine Dream
> Supertramp
> Mike Oldfield
> Bach
> Dream Warriors
> The Arrogant Worms
> Buffy Saint-Marie
> Bruce Cockburn
> Phil Ochs
> Mozart
> the theme music from Babylon 5
> U2
> Crash Test Dummies
> Cowboy Junkies
> Pete Seeger
> Bob Dylan

 How 'bouts,
The Aquabats
Devo
Cowboy Junkies ( I always knew there was somthing right with Rob )
BOC
The Beat Farmers
Gordon Lightfoot
Peter Gabriel
Pogues

To name a few..

- --
Evyn,
Warleader of the Clan MacDude
 Fortalice Desertum
 (Home of the ClusterNuke)
 AD. 1998

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #592
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 17 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 593



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Transponders
Re: Police states
re: Sensor Spoofs
Re: new combat system (was re: New FFS2 Spreadsheet)
Re: Police states
Humour and corporate police states
Re: "Letter of Marque" - UPDATE
Re: Humour and corporate police states
Re: Anonymity Virus
Rare Classic Traveller Items
Re: Thoughts on sensors
Time-bases (was Re: Transponders)
Re: Sensor Spoofs
Re: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka
Re: Sensor Spoofs
Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music.
Re: Rare Classic Traveller Items
RFD: Astrogation Tasks
AUCTION: Classic Traveller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:15:08 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Transponders

Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:32:36 -0800, "William F. Hostman"
<aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
> >  Ignoring the somewhat unpopular Virus-ancestor tamperproof/unfakable
> >MT transponders, how difficult is it to make a transponder system (or
> >electronic log) that is at least "tamper-evident" (as someone else put it)?

> Simple way:
> 
> 	use a WORM (Write Once, Read Many) device of choice, tied into the
> craft's Time-Base clock. While it can be erased, erasure consists of
> writing all  "1"'s to the areas erased... obvious but erased. Put this in a
> caseing where the  connectors are behind sealing tape, and the case has an
> internal power backup, and has a continuity loop test run through
> connectors internal to the case body that connect when sealed properly, and
> write an all 1's error for each timebase period where the case is opened,
> disconnected, or ordered off.
> 
> Add to this whole assemblage a dual antenna system; one for actual data,
> and one to check the first, again writing a block of all ones on fail, on
> it's own tracks.
> 
> All the above is doable with CURRENT tech, and not overly expensive.

It also can be bypassed with current tech.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:21:43 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Police states

Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:55:02 -0700, dberry@hooked.net
> I live in the freest country on Earth.

[list of regulations...]

Depends on what you mean by freedom.  In the US the citizens have the freedom
to require each other to file taxes, get environmental impact statements,
get zonning clearances, etc.  They also have a relatively quick communications
system to support this and a goverment that see individuals as being
important (for both good and bad reasons).  I don't see the Imperium
being like this....

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:00:30 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Sensor Spoofs

You should take a look at the Definitive Sensor Rules, and generally
the sensor ranges in FFS2, which is where a lot of the "traffic control
scans the whole system" comes from...

>How about the famous chameleon coatings on a starship? When you
>make part of your ship black, your coating is absorbing visible light...
>if the chameleon coat could also absorb radar waves, at least for limited
>time periods or along certain faces, you'd be in business for hiding
>in-system.

A chameleon coating probably wouldn't easily absorb radar - among other
things, many radar frequencies are longer than the thickness of the
coating - but one can buy a couple of levels of stealthing for a hull
in FFS2, which generally represents radar-absorbing materials and 
hull shaping, and are implicitly reducing your radar signature by up
to 10^6 (which results in a 30 times shorter detection range.)

>Here's what I see from this: Ships above the TL needed for chameleon
>hulls would be able to spoof passive radar sweeps, and even long
>range active radar sweeps. Something more concentrated, like a laser
>or energy weapon, would instantly overload the coating it struck, no
>protection provided.

Another approach would just be to arbitrarily decrease all active
sensor ranges by a point or two (factor of ten or a hundred). The
active sensor numbers in FFS2 were basically Made Up completely (I'm
not a radar expert, and I was in a hurry) for balance with respect to
passive sensors - everyone should feel free to adjust them as they like.
Even as it is, it's passive sensors that dominate for long-range detection.

>The only way to detect a ship at long ranges is to see it - you'd have to
>have a telescope pointed in the right direction, with the right focus, and
>know what you were looking for. Bigger ships would be easier to spot, as
>would ships providing a nice long maneuver drive flare. 
The passive sensor rules in FFS2 represent this sort of thing - at low
TLs, passive sensors are all-sky automated telescope systems that
scan every half hour or so. Ships can also be detected (even more
easily) in the infrared by the thermal emission from their radiators 
and even their hull. Countermeasures include shutting down the
power plant and hiding in shadows - or extra-black coatings for hulls,
refrigerated hulls, and radiators arranged to radiate waste heat away
from a given target.

A typical small world might have a PEMS-14 in its traffic control
sensor suite (costs about a billion credits.) It can see a normal
target out to 50 million km. However, a pirate ship might have
advanced thermal masking (reducing detection range by 1/10),
arrive out of jumpspace with its power plant on minimum (another 1/3)
and use agressive baffling to turn its hull to radiate waste heat
away from the fixed sensor - reducing detection range to 500,000 km.
It's only the big systems (with a PEMS-15 or so) that can see everyone
everywhere...And you can always have a few systems with extra-thick
dust (another x1/10 or so...)

>Ships presenting
>other types of active emmissions (transponder signals, active sensor
>emissions, etc) would also be easily spotted, and neutrino sensors can
>pick up a fusion plant if you have an idea where to look.
There are neutrino sensors in the FFS2 errata. They're pretty short
ranged.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:20:44 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: new combat system (was re: New FFS2 Spreadsheet)

At 09:20 AM 16/06/98 -0700, Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

>Overall, I think it strikes a good balance with being more detailed than
>Battle Rider, more accurate/modern than High Guard, and quicker than 
>Brilliant Lances (though not as detailed as the latter). The major goal 
>was to make a "High Guard" for T4/FFS2...the working title is a tossup 
>between "Military Combat System (MCS)" and "Fusion Guard".

How useable with TNE/FF&S1 is this going to be?

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:11:03 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Police states

At 11:15 AM 16/06/98 +0200, Tommy Grav wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>
>> In all of the 11,000 worlds of the Imperium there's bound to be a world
>> somewhere where privacy is considered a very important right. On such a
>> world a virus like that would be a perfectly legal way for a citizen to
>> protect his basic right. The more advanced version could well still be
>> illegal, but the first version might be available over the counter in any
>> chemist's shop. 
>
>But how can a world like this enter the Imperium, when in the Imperium you
>have no privacy at all. At least that is the way most on this list view
>the  OTU. The use of transponders on all ships, logging of all ship,
>passenger and cargo traffic at starports. How many people would go along
>with this? If this is the way the Imperium works then it is bound to be
>hundreds or thousands of liberation groups out there that fight this Big
>Brother for freedom, free speach or what ever. There you have your
>pirates, cosairs, free traders. They'll be people that will do anything to
>make the Imperiums work that much harder.

Well if the 3I is like that then either there's an inconsistency in the
canon (and that could never be, could it?), or it wasn't like this once,
when it was goobling up sectors at a great rate. IMO it isn't like that,
because it's not interested in what happens on your world, unless you're
into slavery. The Imperials could well have a law that infected persons
can't leave until they can get some sort of unambigous ID, though. 

>> I'd make it have a limited duration though so PCs couldn't just load up on
>> it a go on a crime spree through the surrounding sector, because they'd
>> have to come back periodically, and the Impies are bound to keep an eye on
>> repeat vistors to that planet. This can be justified in game terms either
>> by mumbo-jumbo, techno-babble, or by saying that the manufacturer does it
>> on purpose to encourage repeat business.
>
>But then you'll have people on this world that will hate the Imperium for
>keeping such a close eye on them. And these people will do what they can
>to make the work of the Imperial attache that much harder. How long is the
>Imperium willing to go, socially and economically in their quest to keep
>everybody and everything under observation?

Not on the world's people per se, just on everyone, regaudless of origin
who travels from the world often (what ever that is).

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:40:43 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Humour and corporate police states

>Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:55:02 -0700
>From: dberry@hooked.net
>Subject: Re: Police states
...
>I live in the freest country on Earth.

  Or, They have conditioned you to believe that :)

...
>I think I've made my point.

  You missed the "I go shopping at the supermarket and don't pay cash".
Whether through explicit so-called customer loyalty programs or simply
by correlating their computerized receipts without your additional
assistance, many retailers and (presumably) all credit card companies
have an excellent idea of what you do, when, and how. They may not know
why, but it should be considered fortunate that learning this is not
their major priority.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 01:16:33 -0700
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: "Letter of Marque" - UPDATE

At 08:27 PM 6/16/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Is it too late to order? My letter returned to me damaged!
>
>Seth

Yeah, go ahead...think you could send it priority mail?

Thanks,
Paul

P.S. System crashed, just got it back up, so I hope this email makes it to
you.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:26:26 +0100 (BST)
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Humour and corporate police states

>>I live in the freest country on Earth.
>
>Or, They have conditioned you to believe that :)

touche, mon ami !

>You missed the "I go shopping at the supermarket and don't pay cash".
>Whether through explicit so-called customer loyalty programs or simply
>by correlating their computerized receipts without your additional
>assistance, many retailers and (presumably) all credit card companies
>have an excellent idea of what you do, when, and how. They may not know
>why, but it should be considered fortunate that learning this is not
>their major priority.

If you have a credit card, you have a bank account, if you have one of
these, you may have a loan, a mourtgaue, standing orders etc etc etc, in
fact, if you have a national social security number you have a credit
referance file .... nastie things ....

If you are born you have a birth certificate, and everything, I mean
everything starts from here. Add a post code, and all the information you
want about someone you can get relativly easily. It's horrifying, realy,
try it yourself, I did .... they know more about me than I do ....

Just cos I'm paranoid dosn't mean they aren't out to get me .... ;-(

	Ewan Quibell
	Data Communications Technician        The Game's afoot:
	Computer Centre                       Follow your spirit, and apon
	University of Brighton                  this charge
                                              Cry 'God for Harry, England,
	E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              and Saint George !'

                                                    Henry V 3:1
	#include<stddisclamer.h>                    W. Shakespeare

	My spelling is entierly due to dyslexia, typoes and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:06:11 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Anonymity Virus

>Those who say that honest citizens don't need privacy or anonymity probably
>aren't:
>        - gay (or other oppressed sexual minority)
>        - HIV-positive
>        - radical political activists
>        - members of unpopular religious sects
>        - ex-convicts
>        - Salman Rushdie
>        - in a witness-protection program
>        - alcoholic
>        - sexual abuse survivors
>        - stalked by a violent ex-spouse/partner
>        - harrassed by fans or paparazzi

Those who say that honest citizens don't need privacy or anonymity
generally (in my experience) do not consider any of teh above group to be
"honest citizens".


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 21:01:18 +1000
From: Kim White <witepapr@access.net.au>
Subject: Rare Classic Traveller Items

First, some historical background. Back in the early 1980's I owned a
business (Starman Adventure Systems) which produced an
Approved-for-Traveller product based on the Duke of Regina's 4518 Lift
Infantry Regiment, the Huscarles (see JoTAS #9 feature article). The product
comprised 3 cloth patches (Regina shoulder flash, Imperial Sunburst patch,
and 4518 Regt. Crest) quality-screen-printed in up to 4 colours, plus an
individually-numbered (and thus unique) Military Discharge Certificate
signed by Norris, Duke of Regina (blank so you could fill in your
character's details), and an instruction sheet detailing where to wear the
patches. After selling a couple of hundred sets, the last sets (or what I
thought were the last) were "remaindered" to GDW, who handed them out as
prizes at some conventions. Those of you who have JoTAS #20 (page 3) or 23
(page 23) can see our advert or read about us in the Editorial. These sets
have sold subsequently to collectors for up to $50 US; they are VERY rare!

Well, while doing a cleanout under my house a few weeks ago, I found enough
materials in a clean, dry, storage box to make up what look like being the
last fifteen complete sets of the 4518th badge packs EVER. The cloth patches
are MINT CONDITION. The Military Discharge Certificates were an end-run and
are unnumbered, at present. I intend to number them in sequence from the
last sets sold back in the 1980's, so the sets will have sequential numbers.

The sets also come with an instruction sheet detailing how the patches are
to be worn on the 4518 uniform ~ this instruction sheet is NOT the
instruction sheet as originally marketed; the original sheet was changed to
reflect SAS's "separation" from the nominal "producer" if we produced a
second run of patches, but this never happened. The "Mark 2" instruction
sheet is a reprint from the original artwork, but is still a genuine
accessory to the "original" patch set. 

I am offering these last-ever sets for $30 US (including airmail postage).
IF I GET MORE OFFERS THAN THERE ARE AVAILABLE SETS, I will give preference
to anyone who is prepared to offer MORE than $30 US.

For those of you who don't know about the 4518 Regt. I can enclose a copy of
material giving the full history of the Regt. as set out in JoTAS #9, at no
cost, to anyone purchasing one of these last 4518th Patch Sets.

Please e-mail me with your offer.

Kim White, Australia

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:21:14 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Thoughts on sensors

>Good point - although I think what I really need to do is just have a whole
>new column for LIDAR (for example, visual signatures go up as the target
>gets closer to the sun, which LIDAR shouldn't...but you're right that LIDAR
>should use the visual dust etc. modifiers (or, more precisely, half of the
>modifiers.)
>
>Bruce

My system has a reflected sig which is before adding sunlight. In fact my
reflected sig is the same as to hit DM and then modified for stealth etc
depending on what is looking at it.

A way to solve the differeance between passive and active that I use is this:

Signal          Passive                 Active
==============================================
- -1-             Nothing                 Nothing
0-2             Location, sig           Location, sig, vector
                                        fire solution
3-5             Location, sig, vector   Location, sig, vector
                fire solution           fire solution
6+              Location, sig, vector   Location, sig, vector
                fire solution, identity fire solution, identity

You might want to use other levels but...


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 06:41:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Time-bases (was Re: Transponders)

In mail you write:

> also, keep in mind that you don't want to tweak with the TBC. Astrogation
> requires quite precises timekeeping. Moreso than any land, air or sea
> navigation. The effects of error in time-based location are measured in
> kilometers per second of error. So the TBC will probably have very very
> careful safeties.
>
> IMTU, one of the first things players do is check their TBC's against local
> time after jump. One of the important information transport commodities is
> the "Bouncing Atomic Clock Set". This is a set of 10 very accurate atomic
> clocks all sent on the same route, each on a different craft, and using
> error averaging to set the base's/port's TBC set to match the SS capitol's.
> Same technique, larger numbers from Sector Caps to all dependant SS Caps.
> Multiples are used to allow for jump relativity errors; the more jumps, the
> more clocks sent.

IMTU this is done by laser/maser links between systems. Sure, the datas
is 3.26 years out of date for every parsec of seperation, but one
channel is an "echo" of the time signal received. The echo circuit is
built with a known, fixed delay. So that you get your *own* time
signal back as a delayed echo as well as the signal from the other
system. With a bit of math (a *real* dumb computer) this gives you the
following: 

1. distance between systems (at moment of echo)
2. relative velocirty of systems
3. "current" time synchronized to their master clock

The nice thing about this is it avoids the rather large corrections you
have to make for the velocity changes of the ships, which can't be
measured all that accurately. 

This setup can even incorporate a sort of interferometer for even more
accuracy. 

In any case, you'd know the distance between the two "stations" to
*meters*. Maybe even better, that sort of things a bit outside my field.

> TBC's also compare to pulsar and cephid variable signals for additional care.

This also helps both positioning and time.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 07:12:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Sensor Spoofs

In mail you write:

>
> How about the famous chameleon coatings on a starship? When you
> make part of your ship black, your coating is absorbing visible light...
> if the chameleon coat could also absorb radar waves, at least for limited
> time periods or along certain faces, you'd be in business for hiding 
> in-system.

But it makes them stick out like a sore thumb in the IR, as all that
absorbed energy *has* to turn into heat.

IR sensors are the big fly in the ointment for hiding at any TL after
they become reasonably cheap and efficient.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 06:55:34 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes:
>> Fungi are somewhat more likely to be able to attack off-worlders
>> because they are in general looking for "simple organics" or complex
>> organics they can break down. So they aren't as likely to be affected
>> by biological differences.
>
> Sure. Fungi are also (relatively) easy to cure, so while there may
> be a few versions of Interstellar Athlete's Foot, none of them should
> be that hard to deal with.

For medical treatment to deal with, yes. For the immune system it's a
different matter.

>> So we could get *some* bacterial infections along the gangrene model,
>> but more normal infectious bacterial diseases are unlikely as they
>> won't have the right defenses, and will not be able to find the sort of
>> cells they normally prey on. They are as apt to *starve* in a human
>> body as to be recognized as foreign and removed!
>
> Yes, but... bacteria on Earth have evolved to consume a wide variety
> of substances. My sister & father both work in the chemical industry
> and have seen several examples of unintentionally genetically engineered
> bacteria being used to clean up toxic substances - in one case there
> was an effluent pond behind a chemical company that had been there for a
> long time (probably over 60 years) that was regularly monitored. One day
> they discovered bacteria living in the pond that could digest some of
> the toxic substances (petroleum by-products I think). Thus was born a
> new bio-remediation project. If bacteria can do that in less than 60
> years, alien bacteria can learn to love humans.

Don't forget that in an effleunt pond, there's little competition, and
definitely nothing along the lines of the immune system actively
*looking* for interlopers.

BTW, I recall when (after a number of years) we *finally got someone to
look at the jelly-like crud we had been cleaning out of the slurry
hoses in the lapping department for *years* during weekly cleanup (we
cleaned everything on the last shift Friday, and the first shift monday
restarted everything). Turned out to be bacterial mats. The bacteria
were living off the glycerine in the slurry (a mixture of silicon
carbide or aluminum oxide, DI water,  glycerine, and an antirust
additive). And that led to further checking which disclosed that the
entire DI water system was infested with bacteria. Which turned out to
be responsible for some mysterious stains that appeared on the silicon
wafers at various stages in the process.

They had to start doing annual purges of the DI system with 20% H2O2.
That killed *anything*, but didn't contaminate the system.

> Of course, in general, I agree with you - there will be *some* bacterial
> infections, but outside of a minor human racial homeworld, they'll be
> rare.

There are possibilities for some nasties in the realm of "just using
humans as food":

1. something that gets into the gut (like E. Coli) but digests celluose
   and releases methane. They actually developed an E. Coli strain to
   do this for methane production and then had to scrap it when someone
   pointed out that not only could it still live in the human digestive
   tract, but given a normal diet, it'd produce enough methane to
   produce a serious risk of rupturing the intestines (rather like what
   happens to cattle suffering from "bloat").

2. How about something that eats collagen, and does so rapidly? Since
   that's essentially what binds the cells in the body together, it
   could get *really* nasty as first your skin and then underlying
   tissue layers turn to "slime" and drip/rub off. Heck, it'd even turn
   *bone* to a powder.

I *really* like that last one. It'd require that the local criters use
a different compound, but use small amounts of collagen for something.
It'd be a "niche" organism that'd consider Terran animals and plants to
be a free lunch.

And the effects are so wondefully *nasty*. Just the thing to put on
that planet that your players are the first humans to visit. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:10:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Sensor Spoofs

Leonard Erickson writes:
> 
> But it makes them stick out like a sore thumb in the IR, as all that
> absorbed energy *has* to turn into heat.
> 
> IR sensors are the big fly in the ointment for hiding at any TL after
> they become reasonably cheap and efficient.

Actually, that's not true.  If your chameleon surface is also a high-efficiency
solar array, some of the energy can be stored/eliminated by methods other than
heat.  Upper limit would represent a reduction of about a factor of 10 in
re-emitted energy (-0.5 passive signature, only relevant to running
powered-down) and require handling around 0.0003 MW/m^2 of surface area (the
0.0001 MW/m^2 in the DSR is an error as far as I can tell, the actual figure
should be about 0.00035), which can be significantly adjusted (+- 50%) by
adjusting the angle of the ship WRT to the primary.

In any case, with the exception of a ship which is being run in shutdown mode,
re-emitted signature is fairly negligible.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 1998 10:03 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Re: Completely unrelated to Traveller, music.

Oooh yeah, Canadian Brass is awesome.  Saw them in concert last
year.  Pretty fun bunch, and excellent musicians.

They performed for a chamber music crowd.  They wore a suit I
can't remember well, but they also wore sneakers with 
fluorescent laces.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:50:15 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Rare Classic Traveller Items

Any chance you could post pictures of these beauties to the web?
Or at least a color mock up?

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 1998 11:11 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: RFD: Astrogation Tasks

To give the human a role in astrogation, here is my initial
handwave + house rule (bound to be modified based on suggestions 
from y'all):

The ship's astrogation module is interfaced with the passive
sensors (constantly updating) and the shipboard systems which
measure the ship's mass, center of gravity, hull stress points,
jump grid stress points, power plant measurements, etc.  All
of this data is wired into an immersive-VR modeling system
connected to the jump drive unit, which provides an interface
to the jump drive controls themselves.  

This network is shielded, redundant, and fault-recoverable
in an astonishing number of failure modes.  The system has generally
been sensitive to the power fluctuations that come from burning
unrefined fuel, so caution is still the word.

The astrogator has several modelling tasks to accomplish in
order to precipitate a jump.

GENERAL RULE

To halve any time given below, increase the task difficulty by 1D.

STEPS

Forming the Jump Sphere.  The astrogator module's interface
represents the astrogator's perception of the jump route as an
irregular sphere which is formed by the astrogator's mind.
This is the jump sphere, which appears as a solid.  It is a
mapping of gravitational forces in the source system down to
a minute level, plus a general mapping of gravitational forces
(down to the satellite level) in the target system.  The ship's
computers help greatly with the numbers, including mass
calculations, positions, and vectors.  However, the jump sphere
creation is an action imperfectly done by even the best parallel
processor, which is still no match to the human brain.

	Task difficulty: 1D (10 min) (1d6 possible paths)

	A "10-minute sphere" is standard, and is complex enough
	to hold 1d6 possible jump routes.  One or more of these
	will be viable.  To make a more robust sphere with more 
	possible routes, increase difficulty by 1D and add 1d to
  	the number of routes.

Carving the Jump Sphere.  Using the astrogator's trained powers
of jump-space-time perception, a route is carved through the
sphere from one end to another, representing all the twitches
through which a ship is carried through jumpspace.  Multiple
routes and destinations may be carved in this sphere, until all
viable tracks are used.  Quite possibly, two routes to the same
destination may take different times, which the astrogator may
be able to detect.  These tracks decay in usefulness over time.

	Task difficulty: 2D per path (5 min per path per parsec)

Building the Ship's Current Jump Model.  All of the ship system
interfacing provides accurate measurements of the ship with
respect to its mass, vector, position, and integrity.  With all
the legwork already finished, the astrogator needs but to form
a jump-model of the starship, which looks more or less like a
cluster of bubbles, or marbles melted together.  This model
decays in usefulness over time.

	Task difficulty: 2D (5 minutes)

Pushing the model into a jump track.  This precipitates the ship
model into the "event horizon" of a given track, which sets the
jump drive parameters and guides the jump drive to send the ship 
to the desired destination.  Failure results in a jump mishap.

	Task difficulty: 1D (1 minute)
	DM: +1 per hour age of jump track; 
	    +1 per hour age of ship model;
            +5 if burning exotic fuel (e.g. unrefined in a non-Scout)
	    +5 if within the 100-diameter limit of anything
	    +10 if within the 10-diameter limit of anything

Verifying successful jump.  The astrogator makes sure the jump
track integrity is fine.  The astrogator should continue to
check until success is made, then a week long rest is called 
for.

	Task difficulty: 2D (1 hour)



Rob
IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:27:17 -0700
From: Joel Pratt <jpratt@ucla.edu>
Subject: AUCTION: Classic Traveller

Auction: Classic Traveller Books (Initial Post)
Featuring: DGP Stuff, Alien Modules, The Traveller Adventure, Judges Guild

Rules:
1) Email all bids to jpratt@ucla.edu
2) Purchaser pays ALL shipping charges.
3) American funds only, please, as check or money order.
4) Items will be held until check clears.
5) Bidding will continue until price stops rising. Going/Goingx2/Gone.
6) Email me (jpratt@ucla.edu) if you have any questions.
7) All items are in Excellent to Near Mint condition unless otherwise noted
8) Frequent status updates will be emailed to bidders.
  Mailing list will receive only one update.
9) Thanks for looking.

Alien Module 1 - Aslan
Minimum Bid: $10

Alien Module 1 - Aslan
Minimum Bid: $10

Alien Module 1 - Aslan
Minimum Bid: $10

Alien Module 2 - K'Kree
Minimum Bid: $10

Alien Module 3 - Vargr
Minimum Bid: $10

Alien Module 4 - Zhodani
Minimum Bid: $10

Alien Module 5 - Droyne
Minimum Bid: $10

Alien Module 6 - Solomani
Minimum Bid: $10

Alien Module 7 - Hivers
Minimum Bid: $10

Alien Module 8 - Darrians
Minimum Bid: $10

Atlas of the Imperium
Minimum Bid: $20

Alien Realms
Minimum Bid: $10

Spinward Marches Campaign
(NOTE: page 15/16 suffers some water stains. Entirely readable, usable)
Minimum Bid: $10

DGP: The Early Adventures
Minimum Bid: $20

DGP: Grand Survey
Minimum Bid: $15

DGP: Grand Census
Minimum Bid: $15

The Traveller Book
(NOTE: Hardcover, missing slipcover, edges/corners are shelfworn)
Minimum Bid: $12

The Traveller Adventure
Minimum Bid: $15

Tarsus
(NOTE: Does not include box or player character cards)
Minimum Bid: $10

Beltstrike
(NOTE: Does not include box or player character cards)
Minimum Bid: $10

Beltstrike
(NOTE: Does not include box or player character cards)
Minimum Bid: $10

Starter Edition Traveller
(NOTE: Includes 64pp Rules Booklet, 24pp Charts&Tables, Mission to
Mithril/Shadows)
Minimum Bid: $10

Starter Edition Traveller
(NOTE: Includes 64pp Rules Booklet, 24pp Charts&Tables, 8pp Additional Rules)
Minimum Bid: $10

JG: Darthanon Queen
Minimum Bid: $5

JG: Tancred
Minimum Bid: $5

JG: Marooned on Mithril
Minimum Bid: $5



- --Joel Pratt
jpratt@ucla.edu

"Bill Clinton does not have the moral fiber to be a mass murderer."
 -- Nobel Peace Prize recipient Dr. Henry Kissinger, Spring 1997

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #593
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 18 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 594



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Sensor Spoofs
Re: Sensor Spoofs
Re: Jump exit points
Re: Sensor Spoofs
Re: Police states
Armor and Structure/SSDS
Re: Police States
Re: Disease
Can someone help this guy out?
Web site
Re: Re JG and the IRS
Re: Sensor Spoofs
Re: Sensor Spoofs
Re: Sensor Spoofs
Looking for Kim White
Re: Annual Maintenance (logs & transponders)
Re: Sensor Spoofs
Jump power requirements
Armed merchants
RE: Armed merchants
Re: Police states
Re: Jump power requirements
Re: Planetary temperatures

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:19:12 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Sensor Spoofs

>Actually, that's not true.  If your chameleon surface is also a high-efficiency
>solar array, some of the energy can be stored/eliminated by methods other than
>heat.
You can't store it forever, though I suppose you could radiate some of it 
as radio waves or whatever...at the cost of some waste heat internally.

>require handling around 0.0003 MW/m^2 of surface area (the
>0.0001 MW/m^2 in the DSR is an error as far as I can tell, the actual figure
>should be about 0.00035)

The solar input flux ("solar constant") is about 0.001 MW/m^2 (I'm not sure
where Anthony got 0.00035.) The value in the DSR has been tweaked,
though, to be an "effective" solar flux - ie the level of fusion power you'd
have to have to produce the same signature. Absorbed solar heat produces
different effects than fusion heat for three reasons: (1) only 10% of 
fusion power plant output goes to waste heat vs 100% of absorbed solar (unless
you do the solar panel trick); (2) absorbed solar heat for ships without 
thermal masking (which includes refrigeration for the hull) is radiated 
uniformly in all directions, as opposed to the normal radiator trick of 
trying to radiate most waste heat away from the enemy; (3) absorbed solar
heat is normally reradiated at about 300K, mostly in the thermal IR, as
opposed to the near-IR radiation of radiator waste heat - thermal IR 
sensor sensitivity is lower for various reasons per watt/cm^2 of target
flux, which makes a megawatt of radiated solar heat harder to detect than
a megawatt of powerplant waste heat (though this is partially cancelled by
2 and 1.) 

(Ideally, I would distinguish between near-IR and thermal-IR, but then ships
would have as many as seven signatures - vis, near-IR, thermal-IR, radar,
LIDAR, neutrino, grav - which is impractical for anything except the computer
game version.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:28:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Sensor Spoofs

Bruce Alan Macintosh writes:
> The solar input flux ("solar constant") is about 0.001 MW/m^2 (I'm not sure
> where Anthony got 0.00035.) The value in the DSR has been tweaked,

I recall 0.0014 MW/m^2.  0.35 is because a sphere has a cross-section equal to
1/4 of its surface area, and it's cross-section which determines absorbtion.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:25:13 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Jump exit points

I pulled this off Imperium Games' web site.  It is a TAS article that seems
to suggest that exit points are plotted and not a factor of gravity forcing
the ship out of J-Space.


Backman/Diaspora Date: 210-1118
      Privateer Black Ralph has successfully raided the orbital Imperial
Naval Base at Backman, with support of rebels who had infiltrated the
facility. 

      The privateer's ships emerged from hyperspace dangerously close to
the gravity well of backman, deep within Imperial patrol perimeters. 

      This bold stroke allowed him time to disable many of the base's
facilities, seize three additional merchant ships docked there, and
effectively limit the Imperial Navy's ability to deal with him later. 

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:21:40 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Sensor Spoofs

Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

> Absorbed solar heat produces
> different effects than fusion heat for three reasons: (1) only 10% of
> fusion power plant output goes to waste heat vs 100% of absorbed solar (unless
> you do the solar panel trick);

boggle?  To the best of my knowledge, a fusion power plant produces electricity by
using steam turbines. i.e. you heat up water to steam, then let the steam turn a
turbine which generates electricity which is then stored in an HPG.    IIRC steam
turbines aren't THAT efficient.  Simple steam engines are about 10% efficient, I
could see advanced turbines getting better but not 90% efficiency.  Then storing the
electricity will produce waste heat.  Then using the electricity will produce waste
heat... Eventually, it all gets reduced to waste heat, which is the same 100% that
you're dealing with in absorbed solar.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 22:44:02 +0200
From: Deligiannidis Nikolaos <nikolaos.deligiannidis@stud.tu-muenchen.de>
Subject: Re: Police states

David P. Summers wrote:

> Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:55:02 -0700, dberry@hooked.net
> > I live in the freest country on Earth.
>
> [list of regulations...]
>
> Depends on what you mean by freedom.  In the US the citizens have the freedom
> to require each other to file taxes, get environmental impact statements,
> get zonning clearances, etc.  They also have a relatively quick communications
> system to support this and a goverment that see individuals as being
> important (for both good and bad reasons).  I don't see the Imperium
> being like this....

"A dictatorship makes you sure  about having few rigths at all.
A constitutional democracy creates the illusion, of having many rights."

Every modern goverment is a police state! It is mandatory to be in
control, to be in command!
( Yes, i know it sounds silly :-)  )!
The goverment use any available means to guarantee stability! Its the microcosmos
( everybodies everyday life) in the macrocosmos ( the big sheme )! As long it is
legal or better as long as i can get unharmed away with it!
The difference to the people is the level of intrusion. The level of what we anticipate!
Enough with this!
What I mean is, as long as the Imperium has the superior means to "control", to govern,
a realm as fragile as houndreds nad thousands of separated worlds, he will use them all
in the extend of not beeing persebtible too intrusive, represive etc.
etc.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:45:11 EDT
From: Qstor@aol.com
Subject: Armor and Structure/SSDS

How do u figure armor and structure in the SSDS? I think the tables are screwy
or something....

Mike

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:56:14 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Re: Police States

As a side note to the discussion, Amnesty International today
documented a year of atrocities, saying governments paid only
lip service to human rights 50 years after signing up to a better
world. 

The text of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights can
be found at:

http://www.un.org/rights/50/decla.htm

Forty-eight nations voted for the Declaration, eight countries
abstained (the Soviet bloc countries, South Africa and Saudi
Arabia) and two countries were absent -- the community of
nations adopted the Universal Declaration of Human Rights
without dissent.

It's a good read but kinda depressing that not one country,
including the USA, has complied with all the Declaration's
Articles since the document's inception.

ObTrav: A number of worlds revolt against the Imperium
based on sentient life violations. The problem is the PCs
find out revolutionaries are right!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 00:18:21 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Disease

Leonard Erickson writes:

>Me:
> 
>>[Description of what I called the Anonymity Virus]
> 
>The problem is that a virus *requires* the cell to be *alive* for it to
>do *anything*. So if the cell is dead, the virus can't activate.

That's no problem at all. This is an artificial virus and it works the way
I said it works. If that means you think it is not really a virus, that's
fine by me. Call it something else. A GEM (Genetically Engineered
Microlife) for example.
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:00:47 EDT
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Can someone help this guy out?

Old philosophpers need all the help they can get these days...: )

>From: "franz kafka" <kafka47@hotmail.com>
>To: lkw@io.com
>Subject: Traveller i would like items
>Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:20:21 PDT
>
>Hi,
>  I am looking for a listing of stores on-line which carry out of print
>items.  However, my searches have revealled that Steve Jackson's Out of
>Print is woefully inadequate as is Wood Elf's.  Do you have a listing on
>hand.  Or perhaps, you have staff members at SJ Games willing to part
>with the following:
>
>High Passage: 6 [magazine] (FASA)
>Far Traveller #3 #4, #5 #6 #7 [magazine] (FASA)
>Legend of the Sky Raiders (FASA)
>Trail of the Sky Raiders (FASA)
>Fate of the Sky Raiders (FASA)
>
>101 Robots (Digest Group Publications)
>Travellers' Digest [magazine] (Digest Group Publications) #11, #15, #17
>
>Secret of the Ancients (Games Designers Workshop)
>Atlas of the Imperium (Games Designers Workshop)
>Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society #1-10 (GDW)
>
>Lee's Guide to Interstellar Adventures (Gamelords)
>
>Thanks,
>Boris Cibic
>416-483-8591
>kafka47@hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:00:56 EDT
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Web site

	I've added a couple of things to my web site and hopefully fixed most of the
links. One of the new features is a suggested reading list recommended by
other Traveller players, while still not complete (and I'd be happy for more
that I might have missed), it's been growing almost daily.
	It also gives you the opportunity to purchase the book from Amazon.com, and
you can review the book for Amazon.com (plus advertise Traveller at the same
time).

	The site is at:

members.aol.com/kagekiha/traveller/



Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 02:53:13 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Re JG and the IRS

William F. Hostman wrote:

> >What did the guy do? Not pay his taxes? How long has this been going on?
                                     Volker
> IIRC, exactly. As in failed to pay corporate taxes of some kind. Read about
> it in Dragon Magazine.
Which one?

- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:43:16 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Sensor Spoofs

In mail you write:

> Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:
>
>> Absorbed solar heat produces
>> different effects than fusion heat for three reasons: (1) only 10% of
>> fusion power plant output goes to waste heat vs 100% of absorbed solar 
> (unless
>> you do the solar panel trick);
>
> boggle?  To the best of my knowledge, a fusion power plant produces
> electricity by using steam turbines. i.e. you heat up water to steam,
> then let the steam turn a turbine which generates electricity which
> is then stored in an HPG.    IIRC steam turbines aren't THAT efficient.
> Simple steam engines are about 10% efficient, I could see advanced
> turbines getting better but not 90% efficiency.

There's no *way* you'd get turbines of the size required into the space
allocated for starship power plants. And you'd lose a *lot* of energy
because you can't heat the steam to anything *near* the temp of the
plasma and still use the turbines. That loses you the advantage of a
high input temp.

Also, those turbine would *not* take well to violent maneuvers, bith
because of gyroscopic effects, and because of the stresses on bearings.

Most likely, The fusion plants use MHD generators extract power, then
transfer the remaining heat to the working fluid for the radiators. And
the helium and other waste products probably get seperated out
somewhere in the cycle.

MHD generators are *quite* efficient, and ideal for extracting energy
from plasmas. You run the plasma between the poles of a *strong*
magnet, and draw power from electrodes that are at right angles to
both the magnetic field and the direction of gas flow.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 22:26:50 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Sensor Spoofs

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
>
> > Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:
> >
> >> Absorbed solar heat produces
> >> different effects than fusion heat for three reasons: (1) only 10% of
> >> fusion power plant output goes to waste heat vs 100% of absorbed solar
> > (unless
> >> you do the solar panel trick);
> >
> > boggle?  To the best of my knowledge, a fusion power plant produces
> > electricity by using steam turbines. i.e. you heat up water to steam,
> > then let the steam turn a turbine which generates electricity which
> > is then stored in an HPG.    IIRC steam turbines aren't THAT efficient.
> > Simple steam engines are about 10% efficient, I could see advanced
> > turbines getting better but not 90% efficiency.
>
> There's no *way* you'd get turbines of the size required into the space
> allocated for starship power plants. And you'd lose a *lot* of energy
> because you can't heat the steam to anything *near* the temp of the
> plasma and still use the turbines. That loses you the advantage of a
> high input temp.

"Fission and fusion reactors use the heat to boil water to turn a
high-pressure turnbine to generate electrical power." p. 65, FFS1

I know its TNE but that's pretty straight forward.  Personally, I'd use the
boiling water to turn an HPG, thus eliminating one step in the power
production.

>
>
> Also, those turbine would *not* take well to violent maneuvers, bith
> because of gyroscopic effects, and because of the stresses on bearings.

Look at all the HPG floating about a starship.  I don't see them flying apart
when you turn left.

>
>
> Most likely, The fusion plants use MHD generators extract power, then
> transfer the remaining heat to the working fluid for the radiators. And
> the helium and other waste products probably get seperated out
> somewhere in the cycle.
>

MHD's require superconducting magnets which would be incompatible with the
temperatures produced by the plasma.

> MHD generators are *quite* efficient, and ideal for extracting energy
> from plasmas. You run the plasma between the poles of a *strong*
> magnet, and draw power from electrodes that are at right angles to
> both the magnetic field and the direction of gas flow.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 22:29:36 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Sensor Spoofs

Here's an idea.  What if you create a tube shaped ship.  Cool the outer
surface and  radiate into the void from the inner surfaces.  Then move,
leaving the heat behind.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:31:02 +0800
From: "Michael Bailey" <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: Looking for Kim White

Sorry to put this on the list, but my PC crashed lst week, and I've lost my
address book...


Kim White, could you drop me a line please...I need your mailing address so
I can send the money.


Thanks,

Mick Bailey

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:13:45 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Annual Maintenance (logs & transponders)

At 01:57 pm 6/16/98 +0100, you wrote:
>all the time, so there must be a switch which cuts of the broadcast
signal
>for emergancies such as misjumping into a war zone, with the threat
of
>mutation if unjustafiably used ...

	... which is the canonical answer.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 22:15:12 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Sensor Spoofs

At 10:29 pm 6/17/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Here's an idea.  What if you create a tube shaped ship.  Cool the
outer
>surface and  radiate into the void from the inner surfaces.  Then
move,
>leaving the heat behind.

	Radiate to WHAT? Vacuum neither absorbs nor gives off heat. Heat is
simply random motion of atoms ... no atoms, no heat. The inner
surfaces of the ship would be radiating into each other. That's no
good for getting rid of the heat. That's also why ribbed radiators
like on your CPU or in your car do absolutely nothing to increase
heat transfer in space--they only help when you've got something like
air or water to carry the heat away by conduction. Radiative heat
transfer is about all you get in space.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:38:13 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Jump power requirements

While cruising the web when I was supposed to be working 
today, I discovered an article attributed to Marc Miller at
http://metronet.com/~washi/Tas/House_Rules/Marcs_notes.html

Within that article was the following quote:
"When a vessel jumps it initially uses a large amount of
fuel very rapidly (at low efficiency) to charge up
capacitors to very high levels (that can only be held for
short periods of time).  This energy then "flashes" the ship
into jumpspace where a small continuing fuel usage keeps the
jump field up."

This to me suggests that the process of Jump requires a lot 
of energy and the Powerplant/Jump drive is just a way of 
getting a lot of energy very quickly. 

To me this implies that if you had a significantly larger 
powerplant than needed - say 1000Mw in a 100t vessel, then 
you should be able to jump without requiring "Jump fuel" 
since all the jump fuel is for is to provide large amounts 
of power. With power levels in between meaning you need 
less fuel as a percentage of the volume of the ship.

The article also went on to suggest that advances in
capacitor technology meant that you could use the fuel
from drop tanks to generate the energy, then disconnect
the drop tanks while the energy remained stored. Wouldn't
this technology also suggest that you could use your fuel
with slightly more efficiency as you have longer to store
the energy, also reducing the overall amount of fuel
required for jump.

Or should I just accept that this was technobabble to 
explain why the numbers were the way they were and stop 
trying to make sense of it?

Steve



I know this would be a pain when it comes to figuring 

Can anyone see anything hugely wrong with this as an 
interpretation?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:46:52 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Armed merchants

Hi all.

I've been thinking. 

IMO the most likely pirate vessel is an armed merchant, 
simply because it can "swim with the other fish", has guns, 
and cargo space to drag the prizes away. I'd probably put 
fighters on it too, but that's not my query.

If the Empire has it so locked down why does the Empire 
allow armed merchant vessels? Either their armament is a 
threat to other vessels (in which case you are making it 
possible for pirates to buy weapons legitimately) or the 
armament isn't. If no-one had weapons except the Empires 
Navy, then there could be no pirates - right?

I mean -- who'd trust a civilian with a nuke det laser? 
after all it's not just a missile - it's a nuke!

If Piracy is so impossible, then why do most of the canon 
ship designs have weapons? My gut response is because 
piracy _is_ a threat, and the Empire _can't_ guarantee any 
vessels safety. 

IMO The details can vary so much depending on 
your assumptions, but the end result has should mesh with that.

Steve

- --
wulf@sea.southern.co.nz

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:02:31 +0800 (WST)
From: skribe <skribe@amber.com.au>
Subject: RE: Armed merchants

On 18-Jun-98 Steve Rennell wrote:
> If Piracy is so impossible, then why do most of the canon 
> ship designs have weapons? My gut response is because 
> piracy _is_ a threat, and the Empire _can't_ guarantee any 
> vessels safety.

I commented on this in an earlier post.  Without trying to reignite the
piracy debate I must say that as convincing as some of the arguements have
been against piracy being a major issue in the Imperium the reality remains
that space is big (real big) and therefore covering all of it is just plain
impossible.  I will agree that the major space lanes are going to be mostly
free from pirates, but get off the beaten track and the risk becomes reality
(so are the likely profits).  Whether this is insystem, away from the
mainworld, or at one of the many other less populated and less
patrolled systems in the Imperium, piracy is a possibility and that is likely
the reason why freighters are allowed to carry weapons.  Its quite clear that
the Imperium is unable or unwilling to provide a threat free environment
in every part of the Imperium.  The fact that the Vargr (TL11 according to
the MT Rebellion Sourcebook data) are still such a threat is indicative of the
Imperium's lack of coverage.  If they can still invade major regions of
Imperium space (highest Jump for TL11 is Jump 2) then a pirate with a TL15
ship *should* be able to as well.

If the Imperium really wanted to crack down on piracy they'd shutdown
shipbuilder that's building all the damn Corsairs =).
- ---
skribe <skribe@amber.com.au>

Real programmers don't bring brown-bag lunches.  If the vending machine
doesn't sell it, they don't eat it.  Vending machines don't sell
quiche.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:14:52 +0800 (WST)
From: skribe <skribe@amber.com.au>
Subject: Re: Police states

On 16-Jun-98 Steve Rennell wrote:
> The IRD (our version of the IRS) apparently try to 
> infiltrate people into the Census processing teams, so they 
> can see the raw data for people's incomes, as they feel 
> that people are more honest with the census people than the 
> tax people - by law they're not entitled to that 
> information. 

In Oz there's no requirement that the information given in a census has
to be truthful =).
- ---
skribe <skribe@amber.com.au>

Naeser's Law:
        You can make it foolproof, but you can't make it
damnfoolproof.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 08:54:08 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jump power requirements

Steve Rennell wrote:

> Or should I just accept that this was technobabble to
> explain why the numbers were the way they were and stop
> trying to make sense of it?

<cynic>The canonical jump drive is undefined.  Any attempt to define it
makes it non-canonical.</cynic>

Personally, I think the best side step is to present it as a new
technology.  "Introducing the new K-drive!"  Then present how the "new"
drive works.  In your heart, you can know its really a J-drive, but it
will stop people from pulling out the canon argument.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:00:32 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Planetary temperatures

Leonard Erickson writes:
 
>In mail you write:
>
>>Humans adapt quickly, however, and within a few generations you'd find the
>>population becoming more suited for the enviroment.
> 
>Yep. Just *try* living at a high Andean village. You might manage, but
>you can't have kids (pregnancy is uniformly *fatal* to non-native
>women). It takes generations of slowly moving higher up the mountains
>(and losing a fair percentage of mothers and babies to health problems
>brought on by altitude) before you can claim to be able to live there
>rather than merely visit.

So you'd expect that in a few centuries people would begin encroaching on
the tropics of this planet? (I think I forgot to mention that the population
after 10 centuries is still only 2-3 millions.)

>Me:
>>That reminds me of a problem I've had with my detailing of planets. Just
>>when does an area become uninhabitable without advanced technological
>>help? I have this TL 4 planet where the summer daytime temperatures
>>reach 70 degrees Celcius in the tropics. Wouldn't that be too hot for
>>the normal person to handle.
> 
>It's to hot to be very *active*. It's *not* too hot to survive. (158F
>for those who care). There are places on *earth* that reach 130F and
>the unofficial record is above 140. 
> 
>>Hmmm... I suppose it also makes a difference whether we're talking desert
>>or jungle.
> 
>What makes more of a difference is the humidity.

That's what I meant. I believe the humidity in a jungle is quite high.

>Two other very important factors. What's the average *daily* temp, and
>what's the average *yearly* temp?

Here's the temperature worksheet (The planet is Forboldn, btw. (And just to
be on the safe side, I guess I'd better mention that most of the details are
unofficial)).

Size: Large (12000-13600 km)
Atmosphere: Dense, tainted
Hydrographics: 31% water
Population: 3.2 million

Star: G0 V
Stellar mass:   1.04

Size:           8.1 (8,088 miles = 12,941 km)
Density:        0.94 (Molten core)
Mass:           0.98
Gravity:        0.96

Orbit:          4
Orbital dist.:  1.6
Orbital period: 1.9846 years = 724.88 days = 17,397.12 hours 
Rotation per.:  26.04 hours (668.1 local days to the local year)
Axial tilt:     27 degrees
Orbital eccentricity is 0
Seismic stress factor:

Atmospheric composition: Standard oxygen-nitrogen atmosphere with biological
                         contaminants.
Surface pressure: 2.11
Stellar luminosity: 1.05
Orbit factor:   374.025
Energy absorbtion: 0.86
Greenhouse effect: 1.15
Base temperature: 307 K = 34 C
Rotation-Luminosity factor: 1.32


BASE TEMPERATURE CHART:

       1       2       3      4         5       6      7        8         9
Hex  Base  Lattitude  Col  Summer  Axial tilt  Col  Daytime  Orbital   Highest
Row  Temp  modifier   1+2   plus     effect    4*5    plus   ecc plus  3+6+7+8
 1    34      +21      55    +16        0       0      +7       0         62
 2    34      +14      48    +16        0       0      +7       0         55
 3    34       +7      41    +16        0       0      +7       0         48
 4    34        0      34    +16       0.25     +4     +7       0         45
 5    34       -7      27    +16       0.50     +8     +7       0         42
 6    34      -14      20    +16       0.75    +12     +7       0         39
 7    34      -21      13    +16        1      +16     +7       0         36
 8    34      -28       6    +16        1      +16     +7       0         29
 9    34      -35      -1    +16        1      +16     +7       0         22
10    34      -42      -8    +16        1      +16     +7       0         15
11    34      -49     -15    +16        1      +16     +7       0          8

       10        11        12       13         14             15
Hex  Winter  Axial tilt   Col   Nighttime   Orbital   Lowest temperature
Row  Minus     effect    10*11    Minus    ecc minus      3+12+13+14
 1    -27         0        0        -7          0             48
 2    -27         0        0        -7          0             41
 3    -27         0        0        -7          0             36
 4    -27        0.25     -7        -7          0             20
 5    -27        0.50    -14        -7          0              6
 6    -27        0.75    -20        -7          0             -7
 7    -27         1      -27        -7          0            -21
 8    -27         1      -27        -7          0            -28
 9    -27         1      -27        -7          0            -35
10    -27         1      -27        -7          0            -42
11    -27         1      -27        -7          0            -49

The atmospheric taint is a microscopic pollen exuded by the local vegetation
which in 243 was discovered to have carciogenic effects. Breathing it for
decades increases the risk of developing cancer significantly. Breathing large
amounts of it caused a clogging of the lungs known as "Green Lung" similar to
the "black lung" experienced by coal miners and asbestos workers on low- and
mid-tech worlds.

>If you dig down a ways, you can reach soil that's at the average
>*yearly* temp. Build your shelter that deep, and you'll be ok if that
>temp is more reasonable. But that's pretty extreme.
> 
>If the average *dialy* temp is more tolerable (ie hot days, cold nights
>as is typical in areas with low humidity and no cloud cover) you just
>build using *thick* walls of stuff like adobe. By the time the heat of
>the day has worked its way through the wals, it's nighttime and the
>heat is welcome.

What I'm working on is an adventure involving an archeological expedition
searching for the legendary lost city of Iwea Uduk, The Cool Caverns, a cave
complex in the steaming, fetid jungle south of the Miasmic Sea where a lost
colony have carved out an underground city where the temperature is pleasant
to man. They were an unidentified minor human race who rebelled against
intergration with the Zhodani and fled when defeated. They lived hidden for
several centuries before dying out. The caves were found around 700 by a
prospector who kept their location secret to protect the many artifacts he
found there. He traded away som of the artifacts which is how the news of
the caves gets out. Upon his death the location was once again lost.

(Btw. does anyone know the name of a minor human race assimilated by the
Zhodani? And when it happened?)

>Note that *both* of these dodges are TL 0!!! Though admittedly, the
>first one is a *real* pain without decent light sources.

These refugees would be TL 11/12, but they would be in hiding from their
Zhodani oppressors (Mind you, I'm not saying that their fears of being
pursued were realistic; perhaps their leaders used the Zhos as boogymen
to keep their people in lene?).
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #594
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 18 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 595



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Sensor Spoofs
Re: Firing CPR weapons in vacuum
Weirdstone & SF encylopedia [was: More on Sword World names]
MT Character Generator
Careers online for Traveller
re: radiators and sensor spoofs
Re: Sensor Spoofs
Re: Sensor Spoofs
Re: Sensor Spoofs
Re: Planetary temperatures
Software
Re: Jump power requirements
THUDDD 9 Lab Ship (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:37:08 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Sensor Spoofs

>Here's an idea.  What if you create a tube shaped ship.  Cool the outer
>surface and  radiate into the void from the inner surfaces.  Then move,
>leaving the heat behind.

Would that be 'Then move at lightspeed, leaving the heat behind' ?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:15:08 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Firing CPR weapons in vacuum

>There's more than enough oxygen in the powder to sustain combustion, and
>the only real problem I would see with an open system would be full auto
>fire.  Using a sealed, caseless design (like the G-11) would end that
>problem.
>
>Ammo stored in vacuum might case degrigation of the propellent after a
>time, but I imagine that special vacc-ammo would be produced.

The biggest problem would be lubricating your gun. Most lubricants (eg.
gun oil) boil off volatiles in vacuum, plus for long-term exposure you
have to worry about things like vacuum welding. An easy way around this
problem is to rule that all weapons used in vacuum require increased
maintenance. If (like me) you just insist that your players schedule
'maintenance time' with their characters this won't affect your game that
much - their characters will just have less spare time.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:41:43 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Weirdstone & SF encylopedia [was: More on Sword World names]

<snip myself enthusing about The Weirdstone of Brisingamen by Alan Garner>


shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) then wrote:

>Great. You *do* know that there are one or two "sequels"? I can't
>remember which, and my library is in storage. :-(



Funnily enough I didn't.  But when I finished the book on Monday I thought
to look it up in _The Encyclopedia of Fantasy_ [1] I managed to persuade my
wife to buy for a birthday present.  That told me all I could want to know
about Alan Garner and revealed that, as you said, WoB is the first of a
trilogy completed by:

The Moon of Gomrath
Elidor (which ironically I actually happen to have and have never read)

If anyone cares (and says so), I'll let you know what I thought of them
after I've read them.  (Visiting a funny old second hand bookshop today, I
lucked out in the children's section and found The Moon of Gomrath, having
only gone to look for some Norton books for Dom!)


Anyway, thanks Leonard for the tip.  It was very close to being news to me.

tc


[1] If our non-UK brethren (and sistren) don't know about this and it's
slightly earlier companion volume, then I highly recommending tracking them
down somehow:

The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction (2nd edition)
Edited  by John Clute and Peter Nicholls
London: Orbit, 1993
1370 pages, 45 pounds sterling
ISBN 1857231244

The Encyclopedia of Fantasy
Edited by John Clute and J Grant
London: Orbit, 1997
1049 pages, 45.00 pounds sterling
ISBN 1857233689

Not cheap (what? about $60?) but worth every penny if you're a science
fiction/
fantasy fan.  And just to get the obligatory Traveller bit in, yes, the
former
volume doesn mention Traveller and Marc Miller but only very briefly which
is
something I mean to take up with the editor!  Perhaps a copy of my
bibliography
would show him just what a great and well established phenomena Traveller
is!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:59:10 -0400
From: "Svenson, Gregory (FL51)" <gsvenson@space.honeywell.com>
Subject: MT Character Generator

I have updated my Mega Traveller Character Generator to include
Journalists from Early Adventures by DGP plus Entertainer, Farmer,
Technical Priesthood and Wealthy Traveller from the TNE rulebook
(converted to MT format by me). I also added the two Pre-Industrial
Universities (from TNE), the psionic institutes (MT Players Manual) and
law school (from TNE). The program is available at the following
address:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/5776/traveller.html

Let me know what you think of the program, if you download it and try it out.

The site also has some of my T4 starship and spacecraft designs.

Thanks,

Greg Svenson
gsvenson@space.honeywell.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 08:44:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brannon Boren <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Careers online for Traveller

I was wondering in anyone has found a source online for CT or T4 character
careers, either new or published in older books.  If you've seen or have a
site with this data, please point me at it.  Also, if anyone has converted
any of the CT careers from Citizens of the Imperium to T4 I'd like to see
their ideas. (I don't have Citizens, so I'm not sure how much of a project
this would be).

Thanks,
Ben

- --
Brannon "Ben" Boren
http://www.mog.net/brannonb/index.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:03:19 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: radiators and sensor spoofs

>boggle?  To the best of my knowledge, a fusion power plant produces electricity by
>using steam turbines. i.e. you heat up water to steam, then let the steam turn a
>turbine which generates electricity which is then stored in an HPG.     IIRC steam
>turbines aren't THAT efficient.  Simple steam engines are about 10% efficient, I
>could see advanced turbines getting better but not 90% efficiency.  Then storing the
>electricity will produce waste heat.  Then using the electricity will produce wa
>ste heat... Eventually, it all gets reduced to waste heat, which is the same 100% th
>at
>you're dealing with in absorbed solar.

THe whole radiator thing is a big can-o-worms, best hashed out on
TLL - but the quick summary is that
(a) fusion reactors won't use steam turbines; Traveller fusion reactors
probably use magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) generators, in which the plasma
moving rapidly through a magnetic field generates electricity. For 
various reasons the efficiency of this is very high (one reason is
thermodynamics; efficiency of a heat engine depends on the temperature
difference between the "hot end" and the "cold end", and of course the
hot end of a fusion reactor is at millions of K, much hotter than most
steam engines.
>MHD's require superconducting magnets which would be incompatible with the
>temperatures produced by the plasma.
  (a1) superconducting magnets help, but they aren't necessary
  (a2) the magnets don't have to be at the plasma temperature - the
  magnets are (thermodynamically) part of the cold end of the heat
  engine. It may take effort to keep them cool, but it's not impossible.

(b) as far as what happens with the electricity - the big power hogs
on a starship are weapons and thruster plates. T-plates have enough
problems with conservation of energy already that one might as well
assume nearly all the power that goes into them gets turned into
kinetic energy/gravity waves/mysterious blue glow rather than being
waste heat. Weapons are trickier, but high TL lasers get at least 80%
of their input energy onto the target (with 3/4 of that being used
for grav focusing, if you look at the numbers), so they don't waste
much heat either. 

Other things do use some power - but one fundamental problem with
Traveller is that they almost all use more power than they should 
(computers using megawatts, etc) so it seems fair to ignore them,
especially since the weapons and T-plates dominate.

Of course, the fundamental reason for the 10% assumption is that 
otherwise large ships become impossible; you run out of surface area.
Try designing a big TL-12 ship with ten times the radiator area 
given in FFS2 - you get into trouble fast. We're *already* running
radiators at unrealistically high temperatures, and everyone wants
big ships, so we had to compromise (in a not-completely-ludicrous way,
although the waste heat from refrigeration is inadequately accounted
for.)


>Here's an idea.  What if you create a tube shaped ship.  Cool the outer
>surface and  radiate into the void from the inner surfaces.  Then move,
>leaving the heat behind.
You're kidding, right?


Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:06:07 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Sensor Spoofs

>I recall 0.0014 MW/m^2.  0.35 is because a sphere has a cross-section equal to
>1/4 of its surface area, and it's cross-section which determines absorbtion.
I might have had a below-atmosphere value - though I think it's closer to
0.0012. Anyway, I'm ashamed to admit I forgot the 1/4 for cross-section...

(Although the "fusion equivalent power" for solar loading was calculated
by my sensor model program rather than by hand, and the program does
know about projected area, so it was folded in already.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:44:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Sensor Spoofs

In mail you write:

> Here's an idea.  What if you create a tube shaped ship.  Cool the outer
> surface and  radiate into the void from the inner surfaces.  Then move,
> leaving the heat behind.

Doesn't work. The vacuum won't absorb the heat. Most of it will end up
trying to heat the portions of the radiating surface that face each
other. 

Your actual *effective* radiator area is the area of the openings at
each end. To radiate *away* the heat, it has to be able to travel in a
*straight* line from the surface of the raidiator to empty sky.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:47:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Sensor Spoofs

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>>
>> > Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:
>> >
>> >> Absorbed solar heat produces
>> >> different effects than fusion heat for three reasons: (1) only 10% of
>> >> fusion power plant output goes to waste heat vs 100% of absorbed solar
>> > (unless
>> >> you do the solar panel trick);
>> >
>> > boggle?  To the best of my knowledge, a fusion power plant produces
>> > electricity by using steam turbines. i.e. you heat up water to steam,
>> > then let the steam turn a turbine which generates electricity which
>> > is then stored in an HPG.    IIRC steam turbines aren't THAT efficient.
>> > Simple steam engines are about 10% efficient, I could see advanced
>> > turbines getting better but not 90% efficiency.
>>
>> There's no *way* you'd get turbines of the size required into the space
>> allocated for starship power plants. And you'd lose a *lot* of energy
>> because you can't heat the steam to anything *near* the temp of the
>> plasma and still use the turbines. That loses you the advantage of a
>> high input temp.
>
> "Fission and fusion reactors use the heat to boil water to turn a
> high-pressure turnbine to generate electrical power." p. 65, FFS1
>
> I know its TNE but that's pretty straight forward.  Personally, I'd use the
> boiling water to turn an HPG, thus eliminating one step in the power
> production.

Either way, check the size of the turbine for a 1 MW generator. It
takes up *way* more space than is alloted for power plants, and
realistically, they aren't going to get much smaller. 

>> Also, those turbine would *not* take well to violent maneuvers, bith
>> because of gyroscopic effects, and because of the stresses on bearings.
>
> Look at all the HPG floating about a starship.  I don't see them flying apart
> when you turn left.

They can have a much smaller radius.

>> Most likely, The fusion plants use MHD generators extract power, then
>> transfer the remaining heat to the working fluid for the radiators. And
>> the helium and other waste products probably get seperated out
>> somewhere in the cycle.
>
> MHD's require superconducting magnets which would be incompatible with the
> temperatures produced by the plasma.

Doesn't stop us from having working prototypes *now*. The *magnets*
aren't exposed to the plasma. Remember, you can get a strong, fairly
uniform field *between* the poles of a magnet and not lose too much
field strength by widening the gap as long as the "poles" are wider
than the gap. It's the electrodes and the ceramic lining of the
"throat" of the generator that have problems.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:54:34 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Planetary temperatures

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>  
>>In mail you write:
>>
>>>Humans adapt quickly, however, and within a few generations you'd find the
>>>population becoming more suited for the enviroment.
>> 
>>Yep. Just *try* living at a high Andean village. You might manage, but
>>you can't have kids (pregnancy is uniformly *fatal* to non-native
>>women). It takes generations of slowly moving higher up the mountains
>>(and losing a fair percentage of mothers and babies to health problems
>>brought on by altitude) before you can claim to be able to live there
>>rather than merely visit.
>
> So you'd expect that in a few centuries people would begin encroaching on
> the tropics of this planet? (I think I forgot to mention that the population
> after 10 centuries is still only 2-3 millions.)

Adapting to higher heat levels *physically* (rather than
technologically) is rather different from adapting to lower oxygen
levels. The Andean Indians have bigger lungs, and higher hemoglobin
levels (and they pay for this with problems with excessive blood clot
hazard IIRC). 

But for higher heat tolerance, after a bit you are up against the heat
tolerance of *all* the protiens in the body. Reworking those will take
millions of years, not mere generations. Any physical adaptations will
be via increasing the existing cooling mechanisms in the body. And
those do hit fairly hard limits above 50C or so.

>>Me:
>>>That reminds me of a problem I've had with my detailing of planets. Just
>>>when does an area become uninhabitable without advanced technological
>>>help? I have this TL 4 planet where the summer daytime temperatures
>>>reach 70 degrees Celcius in the tropics. Wouldn't that be too hot for
>>>the normal person to handle.
>> 
>>It's to hot to be very *active*. It's *not* too hot to survive. (158F
>>for those who care). There are places on *earth* that reach 130F and
>>the unofficial record is above 140. 
>> 
>>>Hmmm... I suppose it also makes a difference whether we're talking desert
>>>or jungle.
>> 
>>What makes more of a difference is the humidity.
>
> That's what I meant. I believe the humidity in a jungle is quite high.

Check the temp and humidity next time you visit a sauna. They typically
reach 180F, and often have *high* humidity (at leasst after someone
throws water on the hot rocks they do!). 

>>Two other very important factors. What's the average *daily* temp, and
>>what's the average *yearly* temp?
>
> Here's the temperature worksheet (The planet is Forboldn, btw. (And just to
> be on the safe side, I guess I'd better mention that most of the details are
> unofficial)).

Care to summarize all the tables? I can't quite figure them out.

>>If you dig down a ways, you can reach soil that's at the average
>>*yearly* temp. Build your shelter that deep, and you'll be ok if that
>>temp is more reasonable. But that's pretty extreme.
>> 
>>If the average *dialy* temp is more tolerable (ie hot days, cold nights
>>as is typical in areas with low humidity and no cloud cover) you just
>>build using *thick* walls of stuff like adobe. By the time the heat of
>>the day has worked its way through the wals, it's nighttime and the
>>heat is welcome.
>
> What I'm working on is an adventure involving an archeological expedition
> searching for the legendary lost city of Iwea Uduk, The Cool Caverns, a cave
> complex in the steaming, fetid jungle south of the Miasmic Sea where a lost
> colony have carved out an underground city where the temperature is pleasant
> to man. They were an unidentified minor human race who rebelled against
> intergration with the Zhodani and fled when defeated. They lived hidden for
> several centuries before dying out. The caves were found around 700 by a
> prospector who kept their location secret to protect the many artifacts he
> found there. He traded away som of the artifacts which is how the news of
> the caves gets out. Upon his death the location was once again lost.
>
> (Btw. does anyone know the name of a minor human race assimilated by the
> Zhodani? And when it happened?)
>
>>Note that *both* of these dodges are TL 0!!! Though admittedly, the
>>first one is a *real* pain without decent light sources.
>
> These refugees would be TL 11/12, but they would be in hiding from their
> Zhodani oppressors (Mind you, I'm not saying that their fears of being
> pursued were realistic; perhaps their leaders used the Zhos as boogymen
> to keep their people in lene?).

OK, at *our* TL, you can maintain a temp & humidity *quite* different
from outside without having your exhaust "plume" be readily detectable
via IR sensor looking for temp *or* humidity variances. 

You use something called a "counter-current heat exchanger" and if you
line the air passages in such a device with moisture absorbent
materials, it'll maintain the humidity difference as well. 

The basic idea is that the outgoing air is used to cool and dehumidify
the *incoming* air. 

Use geothermal power (with the powerplant in a distant part of the cave
system so you don't have to deal with the heat from it) and you've got
a nice, hard to detect site.

Your explorers will likely wear something like the cooling suits that
race car drivers and astronauts use. Basicly a set of long underwear
with a network of fine tubing running through it. The tubing carries
water, which is circulated by a small pump. The astronaust use a
suitcase sized cooling unit while on the way to the pad, and a huge
back-pack in space. The race car drivers just use a belt pack full of
ice. 

One writer for Popular Science tried one out about 30 years back. He
visited a suana while wearing it and except for having to *breath* the
hot, humid air he had no trouble. He tried a steam room also.

Obviously the explorers can't carry enough ice, so they'll need some
sort of "refrigeration unit" to cool the fluid in the cool suits. Which
is going to make them carry a lot of extra weight.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:16:22 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Software

Friends,

I remember seeing a program someone wrote some years back that would
generate words based on the charts given in the various supplements.  Is
this still out there somewhere and if so, could someone please point me in
the right direction to find it.  I am adding some different races into a
current campaign and it would be helpful to have an automatic way of
generating words as needed.

Thanks,

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

http://www.sol-3.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:47:13 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump power requirements

Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:38:13 +1200, Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
>Within that article was the following quote:
>"When a vessel jumps it initially uses a large amount of
>fuel very rapidly (at low efficiency) to charge up
>capacitors to very high levels (that can only be held for
>short periods of time).  This energy then "flashes" the ship
>into jumpspace where a small continuing fuel usage keeps the
>jump field up."

Yeah, I think this was the "original canon" for jump drives.

>The article also went on to suggest that advances in
>capacitor technology meant that you could use the fuel
>from drop tanks to generate the energy, then disconnect
>the drop tanks while the energy remained stored. Wouldn't
>this technology also suggest that you could use your fuel
>with slightly more efficiency as you have longer to store
>the energy, also reducing the overall amount of fuel
>required for jump.
>
>Or should I just accept that this was technobabble to
>explain why the numbers were the way they were and stop
>trying to make sense of it?

Well, it gets into consequences.  I peronally think that
capacitors and drop tanks are a problem because they
essentially eliminate the need for fuel and push you more
to a Babylon 5 type of background.  In some cases there is
also the issue of why you can't use all that energy for
other purposes.  While I still maintain that a low-efficiency,
high throughput only, reactor would solve that problem.
I think it is better to go an explination that the Lanthanum
grid (anchored in jump space early on) is linked to the reactor
in such a way (energy sink, etc) that allows reactors to run
at higher rates than they could otherwise.

Other explinations that the jump fuel is used for cooling or
as mass to throw into jump space exist.  I don't care for them
and will let those that do explain them.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:36:12 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <PhilK@btinternet.com>
Subject: THUDDD 9 Lab Ship (long)

The following attempted entry into the Labship THUDDD totally failed to
make the deadlines. With my luck with email, it might never have left
my machine :-(

Fundamentally big sensors are expensive and I would want more than
400std for a biillion credits.

So the following design is a bit different.

I felt jump 2 was too much, besides it can cary at least 100 "normal"
lab ship designs.

Finally a plea - could THUDDD be brought back to the TML?
After another round of piracy...

Phil Kitching

=======================

ConCERN-1, Supercollider class, Laboratory Ship
(FF&S v2, the Andrew Atkins Spreadsheet)
Designed by Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division

Design Philosophy

Why more than 1,000std?

The main failing with most laboratory ship designs is the total failure to
define what the ship is intended to do.

The current trend for jump capable lab ships in the sub 1,000std range is
pointlessly expensive without actually giving any capability.

Most scientific missions require world surface contact and emphasise long
duration on station. Under these circumstances, the jump drive is not
required and a non-jump capable boat would be more effective.

If this is required, the Postmark Design Bureau can happliy supply this
need with the Exploration Pod, the prototype of which forms part of the
Pioneer X Exploratory Trader.

Even this is excessive. The research of our scientific economics department
indicates that most teams would find, suitably equipped modules for the
obiquitous modular cutter the most cost effective solution. Capable of easy
redeployment by any available merchant, they can form ground and space
facilities to any requirement.

For more exacting missions, 1,000std is insufficient because it is unable
to carry the largest sensors, the resulting ship being little more use
than a cheap scout ship.

So Why 280TCr?

The ConCERN-1 is built inside a particle accelerator torus 2,500m in
diameter, the diameter of the accelerator tube being 220m. Combined with
the ability to accelerate particles for 100 laps, gives a supercollider
of the first order and defines the size of the vessel.

If the only purpose of this ship was to be a supercollider, then there
would be little point in the manoeuvre and jump drives.
The ConCERN-1 allows the particle beam to be focused and used as a probe
for distant astronomical phenomena.

With care in setup, an energy density of 624TJ/cm2 can be maintained out to
over 2 light hours (16AU). With the ability to repeat the experiment every
other minute if required, there are almost no limits to the discoveries
awaiting the purchaser of ConCERN-1.

This would be of little use if the results cannot be detected. For this
reason, a complete range of the finest sensors available has been fitted.
Note that, even with the great size of the ConCERN-1, these massive arrays
will only fit as folding arrays, demonstrating once more the futility of
smaller vessels. These sensors allow many astrophyical observations to be
carried out.

In addition, a large number of supplmentary sensors have been fitted,
along with probe launchers and laser batteries with which to conduct
surface ablation experiments.

In order to hold all this together, the structure is built to withstand
3G stresses from the operation of the supercollider and it is wrapped
in 1m of superdense.

Besides, if 100 ships are ordered, the cost of the ConCERN series
will be reduced by 56TCr each by quantity discounts, a saving of 5,600TCr.


The needs of the Scientists

The ConCERN-1 is able to fully cater for 4,000 scientists
(1 lab for each team of 4) plus numerous assistants (for a total of 10,000)
and a like number of dignitaries and media.
In addition to full multi-room conferencing throughout the ship, larger
conference and lecture halls are available for the presentation of results
to one's piers.

The 100 vessels of up to 1,000std each allow ships such as those from our
competitors to be carried as remote sensing targets for the supercollider.
In addition the 4,000 50std boats can be used to ferry the crew of over
2 million between ship and planetary installations.
These are supplemented by 8,500 lifeboats for use in emergency situations.
Of course many alternative types of craft can be carried depending on
requirements.


Statistics
Tons:          90,000,000std (USL Thin Disc)
Volume:     1,260,000,000m3
Mass (L/C): 2,003,253,400t/1,974,773,499t
Cargo:          1,100,000std (0/100/Hdl:200x80ton)
Dimensions:       2,519.3m x 2,519.3m x 254.6m
Size:                  12
Maint. Points: 65,561,044
Crew:           1,625,871/2,159,970
Passengers High:   10,000
Science:           10,000
Tech Level:            12
Cost:             279,223 GCr

Electronics
Controls: Dynamic, High automation.  Bridge
       1x FltComp (CM:0.35 CP:2.86)
      10x Comp (CM:0.35 CP:2.86)
      20x FibComp (CM:0.35 CP:2.86)
Communications:
      10x TB Radio Rec. (1,000AU, 0.02MW)
      10x Radio (1,000AU, 0.2MW)
     100x Laser (1,000AU, 0MW)
Sensors:
       1x Sci Fld Passive Scanner (16 [5,000mkm] Sci Fld,       750MW)
       1x Sci Fld PEMS            (16 [5,000mkm] Sci Fld,     1,000MW)
       1x Sci Fld AEMS            (14.5 [500mkm] Sci Fld, 2,500,000MW)
     100x Sci LIDAR               (15.5   [5mkm] Sci,             6MW)
Survey/Science:
       5x Densiometer             ( 9.5 [1600km] Sci Fld)
      10x Neutrino                ( 9.5 [1600km] Sci,          5000MW)
ECM:
     100x Radio Jammer            (     1,000AU,                0.4MW)
      10x Decptive Jammer         (14,                          390MW)
      50x Pasive Jammer           (16,                         15.6MW)
       1x Decoy Dispencer         (1 units ea.)
       3x Active Decoy Dispencer  (1 units ea.)
       3x LIDAR Decoy Dispencer   (1 units ea.)
Signatures:
          Vis:1, Act:1, Neu:2, Grav:2,
          IR: 2 (2 at 53,237,329MW, 2 at 40,570,488MW)

"Weaponry"
       1x Supercollider  (+4) 2/24-24-24-24 [1,10/8804-8866-8866-8804] (LR)
   1,000x Probe Launcher Auto   4/4 (/Mag:76 /MFD:500,000km)
                                w/80 Command Probes 6G12 1000AU
   2,000x Light Laser Turret Battery (+4)1/12-2-0-0 [10,400/40-20-10-5](LR)

Performance
           1   Jump            (9,000,000std/pc fuel)
         1/1   Maneuver        (/Thruster:50,400,000MW)
           9   Power           (/Fus:405704883MW,1yr )
  13,346,838   Fuel            (/Purif:144,46714MW)
     315,477   Large Staterooms
   1,854,493   Small Staterooms
  43,199,400   Life Support    (/Ty:St,Mn)
           1   G-Comp 
         200   Sandcasters     (/AV:2000 /Cans:20)
         200   Damper Turrets  (2MW /Rng:3000km)
       2,000   Damper Screen   (25,600MW)
       2,000   Meson Screen    (25,600MW)
  130 [2,000]  Armor, 59 Structure

Features
Electronic Shop (6,000std)       400,000x Airlock
Machine Shop   (10,000std)        10,000x Decontamination Airlock
Ship's locker  (45,000std)         1,000x Laboratory (8std ea.)
Armory             (25std)         4,000x Sickbay (8std ea.)
Gym           (125,000std)           100x Conference Room(100std ea.)
100xOrdinary Galley (Cap:5,000)        2x Lecture Hall(1,000std ea.)
 80xFull Galley     (Cap:5,000)

Small Craft
2x Minimal Hangar  (2,000 craft x50std ea., 1 hatch, 50x Launch Tubes)
2x Spacious Hangar (50 craft x1,000std ea., 1 hatch)
1x Jettison Bay    (8,500 craft x10std ea.)
                     

Backups
Screens:         1x Meson Screen     (/PV:2000)
Communications: 10x Radio Rec.       (1,000AU)
                10x Radio            (1,000AU)
                20x Laser            (1,000AU)
Sensors:        10x Sci Pas. Scanner (15   [500mkm] Sci)
               100x Sci PEMS         (14.5 [160mkm] Sci)
                 6x Sci AEMS         (13.5  [50mkm] Sci)
               100x Sci LIDAR        (15.5   [5mkm] Sci)
Survey/Science:  2x Densiometer      ( 9.5 [1600km] Sci Fld, 0MW)
                 2x Neutrino         ( 9.5 [1600km] Sci)

Crew Details
    27xElec.  1,152,444xEngr.  177,921xMain.  423,425xGunn.   1,046xScrn.
 8,000xFlgt.     10,000xTrps.  295,477xCmnd.   73,621xStew.  18,007xMed. 
     2xMnvr.

- -- 
- - --
  Philk@btinternet.com (don't blame BT for any of this, they only pay me:)
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo (sorry no Traveller)
  The true meaning of "Dark Horror" in Call of Cuthulu is not appreciated
  until you face Ewoks riding Gaint Space Hamsters.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #595
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Traveller-digest        Friday, June 19 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 596



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

real life (tm)
Re: THUDDD 9 Lab Ship (long)
Re: THUDDD 9 Lab Ship (long)
Re: THUDDD 9 Lab Ship (long)
Re: Sensor Spoofs
RE: Armed merchants
Re: real life (tm)
Re: THUDDD 9 Lab Ship (long)
Re: Armed merchants
Re: THUDDD 9 Lab Ship (long)
RE: Armed merchants
Re: THUDDD 9 Lab Ship (long)
Another M:IW ship/sidebar
Re: THUDDD 9 Lab Ship (long)
Re: T4 Character Generation
Plot ideas (was Re: Disease and the fall...)
M:IW ship/sidebar

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 22:04:55 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: real life (tm)

Anything much happened on the TML in the last 90 or so Digests?

I had to stop reading them thanks to work... and I suspect my wife won't
like it if I go and try and clear the backlog. ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:40:28 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 9 Lab Ship (long)

At 08:36 PM 6/18/98 +0100, you wrote:
<<Snip>>
>ConCERN-1, Supercollider class, Laboratory Ship
>(FF&S v2, the Andrew Atkins Spreadsheet)
>Designed by Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division
<<Snip>>

I think this is an excellent design, a bit big, but good none the less.
Perhaps expanding the accomodations a bit and adding classrooms you would
have one hell of University.  I could envision one or two per sector as
cutting edge research universities.

All sorts of adventures await on a ship that has a population larger than
most cities...

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

http://www.sol-3.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:06:03 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: THUDDD 9 Lab Ship (long)

>[twisted, evil mega-labship design snipped]

Wow. I thought *my* labship design was sinister. I wish you had made it
just so I could give you suitable votes in the closeness-to-design-requirements
and originality categories...

>       1x Supercollider  (+4) 2/24-24-24-24 [1,10/8804-8866-8866-8804] (LR)
This should certainly come in handy at grant proposal renewal time...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:41:43 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 9 Lab Ship (long)

At 08:36 PM 18/06/98 +0100, Phil Kitching wrote:

>With care in setup, an energy density of 624TJ/cm2 can be maintained out to
>over 2 light hours (16AU). With the ability to repeat the experiment every
>other minute if required, there are almost no limits to the discoveries
>awaiting the purchaser of ConCERN-1.
>
>This would be of little use if the results cannot be detected. For this
>reason, a complete range of the finest sensors available has been fitted.
>Note that, even with the great size of the ConCERN-1, these massive arrays
>will only fit as folding arrays, demonstrating once more the futility of
>smaller vessels. These sensors allow many astrophyical observations to be
>carried out.
>
>In addition, a large number of supplmentary sensors have been fitted,
>along with probe launchers and laser batteries with which to conduct
>surface ablation experiments.
>
>In order to hold all this together, the structure is built to withstand
>3G stresses from the operation of the supercollider and it is wrapped
>in 1m of superdense.

Just image the invader's surprise when they see what having only 100 labs
ships in your fleet really means ...

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:24:28 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Sensor Spoofs

- -----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, June 18, 1998 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: Sensor Spoofs



>
>Either way, check the size of the turbine for a 1 MW generator. It
>takes up *way* more space than is alloted for power plants, and
>realistically, they aren't going to get much smaller.
>
>>> Also, those turbine would *not* take well to violent maneuvers, bith
>>> because of gyroscopic effects, and because of the stresses on bearings.
>>
>> Look at all the HPG floating about a starship.  I don't see them flying
apart
>> when you turn left.
>
>They can have a much smaller radius.
>
Just picked up a bit on this thread, sorry if I rehash any past arguements.

Traveller PPs are definately NOT steam turbines. Most "Modern" steam
turbines (really just improvements on 1950's vintage basic designs) run
60-70% efficiency. The 15 MW steam powered units in my facility take up
about the area (turbine and generator) of a 100 sdt scout. The 30 MW frame 5
gas turbine generator train (including a waste heat recovery) is just
slightly larger (including shound baffeling).  Current trends depend much
more on the gas turbine technology for "spot" generation systems (basically
a jet engine hooked to a generator) since the size to efficiency numbers are
far better than anything else available.

Personally I've always concidered Trav Fusion PPs as some magic hand wave
not even thought of yet since nothing in sight looks to have the size to
effciency needed to produce the power that star ships require. Maybe an HPG
will do it by Traveller's era, I really don't know enough about them to
know, but I do know that modern generation techniques, especially steam
turbine driven equipment, will ever reach effciencies even close to
size/weight to output that Traveller calls for.

If any one knows better let me know since the refinery I work for would be
VERY interested!

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 19:40:41 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: RE: Armed merchants

>From: skribe <skribe@amber.com.au>
>Subject: RE: Armed merchants
...
>in every part of the Imperium.  The fact that the Vargr (TL11 according to
>the MT Rebellion Sourcebook data) are still such a threat is indicative of the

  Those are sample ships from an un-named source/world. Lair is listed at TL F,
and no doubt there are a number of other Vargr worlds between 12 and 15 in the
Extents (not that they're necessarily organized enough to be a threat).

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:10:56 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: real life (tm)

At 10:04 PM 6/17/98 +0100, you wrote:
>Anything much happened on the TML in the last 90 or so Digests?
>
>I had to stop reading them thanks to work... and I suspect my wife won't
>like it if I go and try and clear the backlog. ;-)

We all quit playing Traveller and have switched to a Vampire/Bunnies and
Burrows combo.

Oh, the angst of my existence, I wish to hop about, but whats the point?

Bunnies we are lest Bunnies we become.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:15:32 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: THUDDD 9 Lab Ship (long)

At 08:36 PM 6/18/98 +0100, you wrote:

<snip>

My.

That would have certainly gained a "1" on Unusual Design.
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:30:00 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Armed merchants

Hello,
>From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
>Subject: Armed merchants
...
>IMO the most likely pirate vessel is an armed merchant, 
>simply because it can "swim with the other fish", has guns, 
>and cargo space to drag the prizes away. 

  Ooh, a potential convert!

>If the Empire has it so locked down why does the Empire 
>allow armed merchant vessels? Either their armament is a 
>threat to other vessels (in which case you are making it 
>possible for pirates to buy weapons legitimately) or the 
>armament isn't. If no-one had weapons except the Empires 
>Navy, then there could be no pirates - right?

  It could be a cultural thing, although we're not told enough to decide
for ourselves. OC, if no-one had "weapons", then rigging up a mass-driver
for close-in work would arm you well enough for piracy. Or just deploy
a high thrust launch with some well-aimed bowling balls.

>I mean -- who'd trust a civilian with a nuke det laser? 
>after all it's not just a missile - it's a nuke!

  CT ship weapons have to be reassessed in light of the more realistic
technology and rules developed since (or not - it's not a world-breaker
if you work it right, I hope). There's no way that CT/Mayday contact /
proximity HE/"focussed charge" missiles can work or would exist given
what we know now, and using the rules since enshrined in various design
sequences. So either civilians in a revised CT wouldn't have effective
(i.e., mil-equivalent) missiles or the Imperium would have to have changed
its' attitude about nukes. I suggest the former, as ships can still have
fun with lasers and sand - and pirates can still succeed with them.

>If Piracy is so impossible, then why do most of the canon 
>ship designs have weapons? My gut response is because 
>piracy _is_ a threat, and the Empire _can't_ guarantee any 
>vessels safety.

  Well, the quotes from SOM include (IIRC - my copy is missing) include
the note that ships on safe runs in the interior often have only a few
sandcasters (and presumably, possibly not even that). If you assume that
most ships are presented for frontier use (SM, SR) then the armaments
become rational, and you just have to settle on how the threat works,
even if regulation and security measures have made piracy quite risky.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:40:17 +0000
From: "Tim" <tim@premier.net>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 9 Lab Ship (long)

> Date:          Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:06:03 -0700
> From:          bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
> To:            traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject:       Re: THUDDD 9 Lab Ship (long)
> Reply-to:      traveller@MPGN.COM

> 
> >[twisted, evil mega-labship design snipped]
> 
> Wow. I thought *my* labship design was sinister. I wish you had made it
> just so I could give you suitable votes in the closeness-to-design-requirements
> and originality categories...

Yea I agree though (I would have to complain about the price : )

> 
> >       1x Supercollider  (+4) 2/24-24-24-24 [1,10/8804-8866-8866-8804] (LR)
> This should certainly come in handy at grant proposal renewal time...
> 

"Now witness the power of a fully armed and operational Labship" 
The Emperor Cleon I

Sorry it had to be done

 
Tim Reynolds
tim@premier.net 
www.premier.net/~tim 
- ------------------------------------------------------------
In Former days we used to look at life, and sometimes
from a distance, at death, and still further removed from
us, at enternity. Today it is from afar that we look at 
life, death is near us, and perhaps nearer still is eternity.

"The End of a War" 
by Jean Bouvier a French Subaltern, Feb 1916

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:32:18 +0000
From: edjs@bitslayer.net
Subject: RE: Armed merchants

> Date:          Thu, 18 Jun 1998 19:40:41 -0700
> From:          shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
> 
>   Those are sample ships from an un-named source/world. Lair is listed at TL F,
> and no doubt there are a number of other Vargr worlds between 12 and 15 in the
> Extents (not that they're necessarily organized enough to be a threat).

In fact, there are one or two at TL 16 in Gvurrdon sector (Hi-pop ones, IIRC).  
At least, there were some pre-Virus.


- --
Edward Swatschek
edjs@bitslayer.net - edjs@mindlink.net - ICQ 2684960
http://home.mindlink.net/edjs/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:14:48 +0100
From: Dom <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 9 Lab Ship (long)

>ConCERN-1, Supercollider class, Laboratory Ship
>(FF&S v2, the Andrew Atkins Spreadsheet)
>Designed by Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division
>

How many times do you have to roll Ship on the Muster Out Benefits Table
to get this ship.  And how old would you be, I expect the character that
did this would be everso lucky (with aging and compulsory reinlistments)
and have a fairly decent pension if of course they ever retired.




Dom
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com  or  mailto:dominicr@bigfoot.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 22:59:43 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Another M:IW ship/sidebar

Rget Sild, Orca class Raider (FF&S v2)
Designed by Andrew Moffatt-Vallance

Statistics
 Tons: 300 std (AF Short Rnd Cylinder Hypersonic)
 Crew: 6/11
 Cargo: 4 std (1/0 Handling: 1 x 28 ton)
 Volume: 4200m3
 Passengers High/Med: 0/0
 Cost: 512.118 MCr
 Mass (L/C): 4460t/4330t
 Passengers Low: 0
 Maintenance Points: 185
 Dimensions: 28.6m x 14.2m x 14.2m
 Troops/Science: 0/0
 Tech Level: 11
 Size: 8
 Frozen Watch: 0

Electronics
 Controls: Dynamic, High automation. 3 x FibComp (CM: 0.4 CP: 2.5).
           Terrain following sensors (TF: 450, NOE: 150). No bridge.
 Communications: 1 x Radio (1,000AU, 0.2MW). 2 x Laser (1,000AU, 0MW).
 Sensors: 1 x Sci PEMS (13.5 [16mkm] Sci, 0.02MW).
          1 x Sci AEMS (11 [0.16mkm] Sci, 0.5MW).
          1 x Sci LIDAR (15 [2mkm] Sci, 3.3MW).
 Survey/Science:
 ECM:
 Signatures: Vis:-0.5, IR:-0.5 (-0.5 at 510MW, -1 at 65MW), Act:-0.5,
             Neu:-1, Grav:1

Weaponry
 2 x Heavy Laser Turret (+3) 1/3-2-0-0 [1,100/40-21-11-5] (LR)
 1 x Missile Turret Can 3/3 (Mag: 6 MFD: 500,000km)
      w/9 Cmd DL 1d6/3 [94] 6G/11 1,000AU

Performance
 2 Jump (30 std/pc fuel)
 4/4.1 Maneuver (Thruster: 441MW)
 0.3 Maneuver (HEPlaR: 63MW, 0.4 G-hours)
 1/1 Contra-grav (59MW)
 3852kph/3899kph Atmosphere (Cruise: 2889kph/2924kph)
 4 Power (Fusion: 650MW, 1yr)
 0 Battery
 68.4 Fuel (Scoop: 6 Purif: 24, 2MW)
 0/0/11/0/0 Accomodations (11 x Sanitary Fittings)
 143 Person/Weeks Life Support (Type: Extended, Normal Food [Stored])
 2 G-Comp (GTanks: 0 Passenger, 11 Crew)
 0 ESA
 2 Sandcasters (AV: 58 Cans: 20)
 0 Damper Turrets
 0 Damper Screen
 0 Meson Screen
 0 Force Field
 0 Gravtics
 10 [29] Armor, 30 Structure

Features
 2 x Airlock
 1 x Decontamination Airlock
 1 x Docking Umbilical
 1 x Ship's locker (0.15 std ea.)
 1 x Armory (0.39 std ea.)
 1 x Gym (2.5 std ea.)
 1 x Ordinary Galley (Cap: 11)

Small Craft

Backups
 Drives:
 Screens:
 Communications:
 Sensors:
 Survey/Science:
 ECM:
 Power & Fuel:

Crew Details
 2 x Helm
 3 x Engineering
 3 x Gunnery
 2 x Screens
 1 x Command

The Orca class raiders were one of the most successful Terran warship designs
during the Interstellar Wars. They were built for the simple purpose of
destroying enemy commerce, a role in which they were extremly effective.
First employed during the 2nd War, the Orcas continued in service until well
after the end of the Interstellar Wars, even though they had become obsolete
by the end of the 7th Interstellar War. During the early Wars the Orca's
favoured tactic was to hide either in a gas giant atmosphere or a planetry
hydrosphere, utilising their long endurance, massive structural strength and
radiation sheilding to await targets as they attempted to refuel. When a
target presented itself they would use their excellant acceleration and
maneuverability (due mainly to their airframe hull) to achieve a quick kill
before any response could be launched. Their massive strength (the Orca's
were able to withstand up to 55g's of stress with no difficulty) then usually
allowed them to dive to extreme depths to escape pursuit. These tactics
proved to so effective that by the 4th War the Vilani had abandoned wartime
wilderness refueling in all but the most extreme circumstances.

The Orca featured a number of unusual design features. The most obvious was
the auxilary 0.3g HEPlaR maneuver drive, this was intended to allow limited
maneuver beyond the effective limitations of thruster plates to enable the
ship to utilise deep space resupply depots. The ship also features a full
large stateroom for each crew member and a fully equiped gym to reduce crew
strain on long deployments. These features along with the ships small cargo
capacity made the class ideal for inserting covert operations teams (by
using double occupancy up to 11 extra individuals could be accommodated for
short durations).

The most famous example of the class was the Rget Sild. Under the command of
leftenant Ulla Atterdag, she was responsible for the destruction of more than
560,000 sdt of Vilani shipping over a five year period during the 3rd War.
Leftenant Atterdag was one of the most charismatic Terran officers during the
War and received a double bar to her Terran Cross, along with many other
decorations. Her disappearance behind Vilani lines in 2152AD still remains
unexplained, despite an extensive search of Vilani records no trace of her
or the Rget Sild was ever found.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++++ su+ ge

************************************************************
Of course its safe, I made it myself
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 04:13:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: THUDDD 9 Lab Ship (long)

In mail you write:

> At 08:36 PM 6/18/98 +0100, you wrote:
> <<Snip>>
>>ConCERN-1, Supercollider class, Laboratory Ship
>>(FF&S v2, the Andrew Atkins Spreadsheet)
>>Designed by Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division
> <<Snip>>
>
> I think this is an excellent design, a bit big, but good none the less.
> Perhaps expanding the accomodations a bit and adding classrooms you would
> have one hell of University.  I could envision one or two per sector as
> cutting edge research universities.
>
> All sorts of adventures await on a ship that has a population larger than
> most cities...

And with that super-collider, they'll win any arguments regarding
"academic freedom" :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 06:06:53 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: T4 Character Generation

>Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:50:17 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Brannon Boren <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
>Subject: Re: T4 Character Generation
>
>But more generally, I think it is interesting to have one or two "odd"
>skills in a character's mix. Most people don't fall neatly into one
>career's skills. How diverse is the mix of skills among members of the US
>military? We could probably find any skill on the list among that
>population, right?
>

My experience has been that a regiment or brigade (4-5000 people plus
dempendent family members) is enough to find just about any skill you could
ask for.  One of my Regimental commanders put out a request for bagpipers,
and got two responses.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 07:06:05 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Plot ideas (was Re: Disease and the fall...)

>
>Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 06:55:34 PST
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: Disease and the fall of the Ziru Sirka
>
>There are possibilities for some nasties in the realm of "just using
>humans as food":
>
>2. How about something that eats collagen, and does so rapidly? Since
>   that's essentially what binds the cells in the body together, it
>   could get *really* nasty as first your skin and then underlying
>   tissue layers turn to "slime" and drip/rub off. Heck, it'd even turn
>   *bone* to a powder.
>
>I *really* like that last one. It'd require that the local criters use
>a different compound, but use small amounts of collagen for something.
>It'd be a "niche" organism that'd consider Terran animals and plants to
>be a free lunch.
>

***War Story Alert!***  "No sh*t, there I was..."

I used something like this in a campaign - "Slash Fever".  The bug was a
bio-warfare agent, developed to weaken collagen rather than destroy it
outright.  I added an adrenaline-related trigger (originally intended to
tie the effects to combat stresses for maximum impact).  Five days after
exposure, any post-adrenaline reaction would result in huge tears along the
stress points on the skin, combined with massive internal bleeding.  Then I
introduced the thing into a remote colony from a centuries old, abandoned
spaceship....  The characters were chasing shadow "Aliens" through the
bowels of the colony, while the paranoia-induced excitement and fear caused
successive waves of colonists to die, slashed to ribbons.  The doctor
character finally pulled out the correct explanation ("hey, why aren't
their clothes slashed as well?") in time to find a solution.

Didn't help that one of the early casualties was really a murder victim,
done up to look like a slasher attack.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 01:59:25 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: M:IW ship/sidebar

Canberra, Darwin class Frigate (FF&S v2)

Designed by Andrew Moffatt-Vallance


Statistics
 Tons: 1000 std (AF Med Disc Hypersonic)
 Crew: 14/24
 Cargo: 15 std (1/0 Handling: 1 x 210ton)
 Volume: 14000m3
 Passengers High/Med: 0/0
 Cost: 2600.559 MCr
 Mass (L/C): 12273t/11604t
 Passengers Low: 0
 Maintenance Points: 485
 Dimensions: 44.6m x 44.6m x 9m
 Troops/Science: 5/0
 Tech Level: 9 (9/10)
 Size: 9
 Frozen Watch: 0


Electronics

 Controls [TL 10]: Dynamic, High automation. 3 x FibComp (CM: 0.45 CP: 
2.22).

                   Terrain following sensors (TF:420, NOE:140). Bridge.
 Communications: 1 x Dir Radio (1,000AU, 0.2MW). 2 x Laser (1,000AU, 0MW).

 Sensors: 1 x Sci Pas. Scanner (13 [5mkm] Sci, 0.02MW).
          1 x Sci AEMS (11 [0.16mkm] Sci, 1MW).
          1 x Sci LIDAR (14.5 [500kkm] Sci, 1MW).

 Survey/Science:

 ECM: 1 x Decoy Disp. (2 units ea.).

 Signatures: Vis:-0.5, IR:0 (0 at 1518MW, -0.5 at 200MW), Act:0, Neu:-1,

             Grav:-2


Weaponry
 1 x Heavy Laser Turret (+0) 1/0-0-0-0 [1,800/1-1-0-0] (LR)
 1 x Missile Turret Laun 6/6 (Mag: 6 MFD: 500,000km) [TL 10]
       w/12 Cmd DL 1d6/3 [113] 6G/10 500,000km [TL 10]
 1 x Light Spinal PA (+0) 2/4-3-2-0 [1,100/104-52-26-13] (LR)


Performance
 1 Jump (100 std/pc fuel)
 2.3/2.4 Maneuver (HEPlaR: 1400MW, 20.8 G-hours) [TL 10]
 0/0 Contra-grav
 2570kph/2709kph Atmosphere (Cruise: 1928kph/2032kph)	
 4 Power (Fusion: 2000MW, 1yr)
 0 Battery
 447.4 Fuel (Scoop: 11 Purif: 96, 4MW)
 0/21/3/0/0 Accomodations (27 x Sanitary Fittings)
 351 Person/Weeks Life Support (Type: Extended, Normal Food [Stored])
 0 G-Comp (GTanks: 6 Passenger, 18 Crew)
 0 ESA
 2 Sandcasters (AV: 58 Cans: 18)
 0 Damper Turrets
 0 Damper Screen
 0 Meson Screen
 0 Force Field
 0 Gravitics
 10 [29] Armor, 35 Structure

	

Features
 8 x Airlock
 2 x Decontamination Airlock
 1 x Docking Umbilical
 1 x Ship's locker (0.5 std ea.)
 3 x Prisoner Capacity (0/3/0)
 1 x Armory (0.86 std ea.)
 1 x Gym (2.5 std ea.)
 1 x Ordinary Galley (Cap: 27)


Small Craft
 1 x Spaceous Hanger (15 std, 1 hatch)


Backups

 Drives:

 Screens:

 Communications:

 Sensors: 1 x Sci Pas. Scanner (13 [5mkm] Sci).
          1 x Sci AEMS (11 [0.16mkm] Sci).
          1 x Sci LIDAR (14.5 [500kkm] Sci).

 Survey/Science:
 ECM:
 Power & Fuel:

Crew Details
 3 x Helm
 7 x Engineering
 1 x Maintainance
 3 x Gunnery
 2 x Screens
 5 x Troops
 3 x Command


The Darwin class frigates achieved a permanent place in both Terran and
Vilani history over Barnard's Star in 2110AD when the Canberra was involved
in the incident which sparked the 1st Interstellar War. Designed for the
Western League shortly before the outbreak of the War, the Darwin was
commissioned in 2107AD, to be followed by the Canterbury and Canberra in
2108AD and the Melbourne and Port Morsby in 2109AD. The class incorporated
the latest drive, missile and computer technologies; and was built around a
40m 1600Mj spinal particle accelerator along with a sextuple Kea missile
launcher and a 16Mj point defence laser. The class incorporated most of the
features that were to come to distinguish Terran warships throughout the
Interstellar Wars. They were designed to withstand far greater stresses than
they would ever reasonably expect to encounter (the Darwin's were rated for
30g's of stress); featured a closed loop biologically based life support
system and carried sufficent supplies for lengthy patrols without resupply;
and they were built around a single spinal mount. During the First War no
less than seven more Darwin's were commissioned by the Western League and
another four were built for the Prometheus Colonial Command. The Darwins were
extensively employed throughout the War and suffered accordingly, with seven
being lost. With the cessation of hostilities in 2118AD the Darwins were now
obsolete and were quickly reduced to reserve status and gradually scrapped.
However three survived to see action in the 2nd Interstellar War (albeit in
2nd line duties); and another one was lost in this conflict.


With the end of the 2nd War the remaining two ships (the Canberra and the
Otago) were finally decommissioned and scheduled to be scrapped. However a
massive public campaign resulted in the preservation of the Canberra as a
historic monument on Barnard. When Barnard was occupied by the Vilani in
2148AD the Canberra was removed to the Vilani provincial capital at Dingir
where she was to remain until after the 8th Interstellar War. When the Terran
Confederation occupied Dingir in 2267AD plans were made to return the
Canberra to Barnard. Since the resources could not be spared during the War,
her relocation had to wait until 2272AD, when she was finally returned and
formally recommissioned into the Confederation Navy.


<nofill>
Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++++ su+ ge

************************************************************
Of course its safe, I made it myself
************************************************************

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #596
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, June 19 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 597



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Message For Dom Mooney's Postmaster
Re: THUDDD 9 Lab Ship (long)
THUDD 9 Lab Ship
Re: real life (tm)
Re: Plot ideas (was Re: Disease and the fall...)
FS: Fifth Frontier War
Re: AUCTION: Classic Traveller
New Weapon (Humor)
Re: Ships...
CT space combat
Re: AUCTION: Classic Traveller
labship THUDD: Designer's notes for the Darwin-class
Re: CT space combat
re: CT Space Combat
Re: FS: Fifth Frontier War
re: CT Space Combat
Re: Planetary temperatures
Re: Armed merchants
Re: Plot ideas (was Re: Disease and the fall...)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:20:01 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Message For Dom Mooney's Postmaster

Sorry to waste everyone's bandwidth on this, but I can't see any other way
to get through.

Dom, my replies to you are being bounced. Here is what our network people
tell me:

========== Message 1 ==========

Jeff Michea Admin writes:
>Hi Ed. This is a re occurng problem. This person receives mail from the
>same source and cannot reply to the address. I have tried to ping the
>address and do a trace but get the message that What Route cannot resolve
>the name. I cannot figure this out. Any suggestions
>oh-GURU-of-the-FC-world?

I looked up their MX record, then made sure that the resulting machine
existed, then telnetted to it for SMTP mail. I tried to send a message
with the following result:

% telnet mserv0.u-net.net 25
Trying 194.119.128.80...
Connected to mserv0.u-net.net.
Escape character is '^]'.
220 mserv1b.u-net.net ESMTP Exim 1.82 #2 Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:58:07 +0100
HELO me.my.not
250 mserv1b.u-net.net: Hello me.my.not [130.63.236.88]
mail from: ed_leslie@nynet.nybe.on.ca
250 <ed_leslie@nynet.nybe.on.ca> is syntactically correct
rcpt to: nobody@cybergoths.u-net.net
550 relaying to <nobody@cybergoths.u-net.net> prohibited by administrator

So, mail0.u-net.net (which really ended me up at mserv1b.u-net.net) thinks
that it needs to relay mail (i.e. it is not where mail for
cybergoths.u-net.net should be delivered), but it is refusing to do so
because it has anti-spam measures in effect.

The problem, then, is the setup AT THE OTHER END. They are configured such
that mail for cybergoths.u-net.net should be delivered to mserv0.u-net.net
but *that* machine (who then calls itself mserv1b.u-net.net) thinks that
it is not the machine to which that mail should be delivered.

I'll cc this to the postmaster@mserv1b.u-net.net and see if that gets
through. If it does, this should provide the info they need to fix it.

========== Message 2 ==========

Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to:

postmaster@mserv1b.u-net.net
	RCPT TO:<postmaster@mserv1b.u-net.net>
	Received: 550 relaying to <postmaster@mserv1b.u-net.net> prohibited by
administrator

Looks like their setup is really ...

=========== Message ends ==========


Dom, if you could forward this to your postmaster, please, it might help
us get back in communication.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:22:28 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: THUDDD 9 Lab Ship (long)

Any chance we could have the 
> Supercollider class
 added to the THUDD page anyway?  List it as a late submission, therefore
unrated, but include it somehow.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 00:31:42
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: THUDD 9 Lab Ship

Weeeeeee waaaaaaaaaant one.

But weeeeeee wanna see one with a meeeeeeson gunnie-wunnie. Weeee reckon a
meson-weson gun that is twooooo point five kilomenter wometers long should
be able to be ... to be ...

(Ms Spofulam then pulled out a cloth-of-tungsten-carbide hankie to wipe the
drool off her face)

weee should be able to get a meson-wesons to go about two miiiiilion
kilometer-wometers before they run out of weeet-bix.

An an an if you're dodging-wodging in threeeee dimensions to avoid the
meeeeesons, then the paw-tiddly-paw-paw should piiiiiing you with at least
a terajoule.

Weeeeee waaaaaaant one, Uncie Hengie. I reckon those nice Sayat ladies
would want one too ...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 07:51:52 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: real life (tm)

dberry@hooked.net wrote:
> 
> At 10:04 PM 6/17/98 +0100, you wrote:
> >Anything much happened on the TML in the last 90 or so Digests?
> >
> >I had to stop reading them thanks to work... and I suspect my wife won't
> >like it if I go and try and clear the backlog. ;-)
> 
> We all quit playing Traveller and have switched to a Vampire/Bunnies and
> Burrows combo.
> 
> Oh, the angst of my existence, I wish to hop about, but whats the point?
> 
> Bunnies we are lest Bunnies we become.

SSSSHHHHHHhhhhhhhh!

Be vewy vewy quiet...I'm hunting wabbits!...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 07:55:58 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Plot ideas (was Re: Disease and the fall...)

Christopher Thrash wrote:

> ***War Story Alert!***  "No sh*t, there I was..."
> 
> I used something like this in a campaign - "Slash Fever".  The bug was a
> bio-warfare agent, developed to weaken collagen rather than destroy it
> outright.  I added an adrenaline-related trigger (originally intended to
> tie the effects to combat stresses for maximum impact).  Five days after
> exposure, any post-adrenaline reaction would result in huge tears along the
> stress points on the skin, combined with massive internal bleeding.  Then I
> introduced the thing into a remote colony from a centuries old, abandoned
> spaceship....  The characters were chasing shadow "Aliens" through the
> bowels of the colony, while the paranoia-induced excitement and fear caused
> successive waves of colonists to die, slashed to ribbons.  The doctor
> character finally pulled out the correct explanation ("hey, why aren't
> their clothes slashed as well?") in time to find a solution.
> 
> Didn't help that one of the early casualties was really a murder victim,
> done up to look like a slasher attack.

Oh, COOL!!!

Eris you did NOT see this...You have NEVER HEARD of such a thing! Uhhh...it
wouldn't work it coudn't exist in the Imperium because ships are too
expensive! It violates conservation of momentum...It uhhhh... it...oh
hell...we're cheetos MAN!

;-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:11:35 -0500
From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Subject: FS: Fifth Frontier War

I came across three copies, and I do *not* want to take the time and sort
out all the counters, so I'll sell them for $35 each, as is, or best offer.

It *LOOKS* like everything is in them. The boxes are worn, but not terribly.

E-mail muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com , if interested.


**************************************************
       "This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                              - Arthur Dent
**************************************************
              "Dork Tower," "Wild Life," "Beached," "Murphy's Rules":
           at 'TOON CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~muskrat/
**************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:36:12 EDT
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: AUCTION: Classic Traveller

DGP: The Early Adventures
Minimum Bid: $20

DGP: Grand Census
Minimum Bid: $15

These are sitting on a shelf here in Las Vegas, mint condition, $5.00.  2
copies of Early Adventures, 3+ of Grand Census.

Alien Module 4 - Zhodani
Minimum Bid: $10

I'll bid $15 on this one.

The Traveller Book
(NOTE: Hardcover, missing slipcover, edges/corners are shelfworn)
Minimum Bid: $12

I'll bid $20 for this as well.

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:55:01 EDT
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: New Weapon (Humor)

This came last week from my ongoing CT game....

The group was sitting around trying to explain realistic space combat to a
Trek junkie (you know, the kind that think Trek is the end-all be-all of
physics) and we got on the subject of kenetic weapons.  One of the players
used as an example, "if we opened up the cargo door and threw out the sofa
you're sitting on, and it hit a ship, it would likely vaporize it."  The Trek
fan got a very disbelieving look on his face and said, "So what would you call
that?"  

That's when I popped up and said, " A futon torpedo."  :-)

Don't let Sayboom or Familie Spofulam get ahold of it!  Hehehe

DustyLV769@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:10:36 PDT
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Ships...

>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
>Subject: Another M:IW ship/sidebar
>
>Rget Sild, Orca class Raider (FF&S v2)
>Designed by Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
>
>
>Small Craft

Excellent ship.  But why no small craft?  I can't imagine a commander 
wanting to always use the primary ship....


Greg Smith
The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:21:27 EDT
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: CT space combat

Here are some ideas that I am using at present for my CT campaign (for what
they are worth):

SENSORS

I have watched the ongoing debate over piracy and the sensors systems, and I
have to come to the following conclusions:

1)  As the rules are written now (with Bruce Macintosh's wonderfully accurate
DSR system) piracy is no longer a viable, believeable option.  (please no
flames!)

2)  As CT was written (1977), the sensor ranges were short enough to allow
piracy to go on w/ a reasonable chance of success.  According to my LBB's, a
commercial ship could detect a ship out to a range of 150,000km (.5 light-
second) and a military or scout vessel could do 300,000km (1 light-second),
with a tracking range (once detected) of 900,000km (3 light-seconds).

I have tried ever since MT to try and make all the systems come out w/ the
same or reasonably similar results.  It's like trying to fix a kite string by
climbing up the string and reattaching it to the flying kite- it can't be
done.  So I have gone back to the basic CT system.

As far as sensors go, I am using the following ideas.  The Basic Ship Design
System for CT says a bridge is 2% of the hull tonnage, with a 20 ton minimum.
This is to represent controls for the ship and sensor systems.  I have 5
different types of sensors:

1) Minimal Civilian.  This is an active-only system with a detect range of
50,000km (roll 9+, subject to DM's) and a tracking range of 150,000km

2) Basic Civilian.  This is an active-only system with a detect range of
150,000km (roll 8+, subject to DM's) and a tracking range of 300,000km

3) Advanced Civilian.  This is an active/passive system with a detect range of
300,000km (roll 7+ for active detect, 8+ for passive detect, subject to DM's)
and a tracking range of 450,000km.

4) Basic Military.  This is an active/passive system with a detect range of
450,000km (roll 7+ for active detection, 8+ for a passive detection, subject
to DM's) and a tracking range of 600,000km.

5) Advanced Military.  This is an active/passive system with a detect range of
600,000km (roll 6+ for a active detection, 7+ for a passive detection, subject
to DM's) and a tracking range of 900,000km.

I don't have the paperwork with me (to give the exact DM's) but they are
things like Sensor Ops skill, range (DM -1 if range is greater than half
detect range for sensor), stealth level ( oh yeah, added stealth- no mass
cost, but beaucoup expensive), target using active sensors, etc.

Let me know what y'all think of this, still tweaking it a bit.  If anyone is
real interested, I'll post the list of new things I added to CT ship design to
the list.

Thanks, 
DustyLV769@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:44:36 -0400
From: "Ed Leland" <eleland@gte.net>
Subject: Re: AUCTION: Classic Traveller

Ed-
    Could you give me the phone number of the store? :)  Would love to get a
copy of the early adventures....

Thanks
Ed Leland
eleland@gte.net

- -----Original Message-----
From: DustyLV769@aol.com <DustyLV769@aol.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, 19 June, 1998 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: AUCTION: Classic Traveller


>DGP: The Early Adventures
>Minimum Bid: $20
>
>DGP: Grand Census
>Minimum Bid: $15
>
>These are sitting on a shelf here in Las Vegas, mint condition, $5.00.  2
>copies of Early Adventures, 3+ of Grand Census.
>
>Alien Module 4 - Zhodani
>Minimum Bid: $10
>
>I'll bid $15 on this one.
>
>The Traveller Book
>(NOTE: Hardcover, missing slipcover, edges/corners are shelfworn)
>Minimum Bid: $12
>
>I'll bid $20 for this as well.
>
>Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:39:42 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: labship THUDD: Designer's notes for the Darwin-class

- -the HEPlaR acceleration is listed as 1-G when it should be 0.5-G.

The designer's notes (going at the end) where omitted:


Designer's Notes:

	FFS2 design, using Andrew "FFS2 Saint" Akins
marvellous spreadsheet (with some modifications.)

	Modular vs non-modular ship is a somewhat complicated
tradeoff, since modular ships add a moderate amount (24 dTons, in 
this case) of waste space and a larger amount of waste weight.
On the other hand, the requirements for a science/lab ship are
pretty broad. An astronomy or survey ship really needs a PEMS-14
(50 million km) sensor - but a lab ship that's going to spend most 
of its time in orbit doing twisted biochemical experiments doesn't.
Ships on long-duration missions need machine and electronics shops;
ships doing planetary surveys need extra landers; ships invesitgating
stellar anomalies need extra fuel (it's hard to field-refuel from
a neutron star.) So, I went with modular. It turned out reasonably
well, since I followed the basic rules of modular ship design (never
streamline the main ship, never put anything (like primary jump fuel)
in the modules you don't have to.) Overall it's a pretty efficient
ship, given the variety of missions and capabilities it has.
Slightly pricy - though most of that is the sensor suite, and I'd say
a PEMS-13.5 (5 million km) is pretty much the minimum for any kind
of lab ship - but cost was only a secondary consideration in this
THUDD.

  One design feature I'm proud of is including seperate workstations 
throughout the ship (in the lab modules and in the bridge) for 
scientists to run things like sensors or other ship equipment (the laser,
the tractor, or even the drive) from. The ship has a full-fledged bridge
rather than the cramped flight deck it could technically get away with
to make interactions between scientists and crew during coordinated 
operations (using the sensor array to study a dangerous object, for example)
easier.

Several other modules will be made available, including the Tenured VIP
module (4 large staterooms, full galley with Excellent meals, recreation
area) and the Press Conference Module (4 offices for reporters plus a 
300 m3 presentation room.) BAMTech cannot comment on rumors that the 
Nominal Agency for Space Astronomy has ordered a Darwin-class equipped only
with VIP quarters and Press Conference Modules.

	I'll name a ship in the next construction batch for anyone who
can identify the origins of any nine of the names. BAMTech will
deliver a free labship to anyone who can identify all ten. (For each
name there are several people other than me who can identify them - 
but I think there's absolutely no overlap between some of these
groups.) Anyone who can identify BAMTech's hidden agenda underlying
the design will get an all-expenses-paid visit from our Special 
Customer Service Group.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:50:32 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: CT space combat

At 01:21 PM 6/19/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Here are some ideas that I am using at present for my CT campaign (for what
>they are worth):
>
>SENSORS
<<SNIP>>

I like it.  It has two factors which Traveller has had until the advent of
TNE; it's fast and playable.

Later,

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:40:14 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: CT Space Combat

By all  means, I'd love to see some more CT/LBB ideas...I've been trying
to fiddle out a workable LBB hulls/drives/sensors + High Guard weapons
and doodads (Launch tubes, drop tanks, etc) system for a TU with a
small max size on ships (5ktn), and where battleships _don't_ maneuver
like the most nimble starfighter.

BTW, does anyone have the stats for Drop Capsules that came with
the original LBB version of Striker? I know they're an oftimes silly idea,
but I *like* Jump Infantry.

Walt Smith
_________________

Dusty wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Here are some ideas that I am using at present for my CT campaign (for what
they are worth):

SENSORS

I have watched the ongoing debate over piracy and the sensors systems, and I
have to come to the following conclusions:

<<SNIP of some interesting ideas>>

I don't have the paperwork with me (to give the exact DM's) but they are
things like Sensor Ops skill, range (DM -1 if range is greater than half
detect range for sensor), stealth level ( oh yeah, added stealth- no mass
cost, but beaucoup expensive), target using active sensors, etc.

Let me know what y'all think of this, still tweaking it a bit.  If anyone is
real interested, I'll post the list of new things I added to CT ship design to
the list.

Thanks, 
DustyLV769@aol.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:12:55 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: FS: Fifth Frontier War

Dear Sir:

You should sort the counters, and just add a couple of bucks to each copy for
your trouble. It will sell easier. I wouldn't buy my copy untill I was sure I
had all the counters, as I wanted to play the game, and not just use it for
RPG data.

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:36:46 +0000
From: edjs@bitslayer.net
Subject: re: CT Space Combat

> From:          Walter Smith <SmithW@hartwick.edu>
> Date:          Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:40:14 -0400
> 
> BTW, does anyone have the stats for Drop Capsules that came with
> the original LBB version of Striker? I know they're an oftimes silly idea,
> but I *like* Jump Infantry.

Each launcher may launch one capsule in 30 s.  A launch facility takes up 1 
displacement ton, costs Cr10,000 and stores 1 capsule.  Additional launch-ready 
storage takes up 0.5 displacement tons and costs Cr1000 per capsule.  
Additional capsules beyond the capacity of the launcher may be carried as 
cargo, at 0.5 tons each.

Capsules:
    2 000Cr  basic
   10 000Cr  assualt (ECM, chaff, armour-20 [6cm steel-equiv], must roll 9+ to 
             fire at capsule +/- TL difference)
   50 000Cr  high-survivability (ECM, chaff, several decoy capsules, armour-28 
             [12cm steel-equiv], can only be fired at by point-defense wpns)


- --
Edward Swatschek
edjs@bitslayer.net - edjs@mindlink.net - ICQ 2684960
http://home.mindlink.net/edjs/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 23:44:29 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Planetary temperatures

Leonard Erickson writes:

>>>Two other very important factors. What's the average *daily* temp, and
>>>what's the average *yearly* temp?
>>
>>Here's the temperature worksheet
> 
>Care to summarize all the tables? I can't quite figure them out.

BASE TEMPERATURE CHART:

       1       2       3      4         5       6      7        8         9
Hex  Base  Lattitude  Col  Summer  Axial tilt  Col  Daytime  Orbital   Highest
Row  Temp  modifier   1+2   plus     effect    4*5    plus   ecc plus  3+6+7+8
 1    34      +21      55    +16        0       0      +7       0         62
 2    34      +14      48    +16        0       0      +7       0         55
 3    34       +7      41    +16        0       0      +7       0         48
 4    34        0      34    +16       0.25     +4     +7       0         45
 5    34       -7      27    +16       0.50     +8     +7       0         42
 6    34      -14      20    +16       0.75    +12     +7       0         39
 7    34      -21      13    +16        1      +16     +7       0         36
 8    34      -28       6    +16        1      +16     +7       0         29
 9    34      -35      -1    +16        1      +16     +7       0         22
10    34      -42      -8    +16        1      +16     +7       0         15
11    34      -49     -15    +16        1      +16     +7       0          8

       10        11        12       13         14             15
Hex  Winter  Axial tilt   Col   Nighttime   Orbital   Lowest temperature
Row  Minus     effect    10*11    Minus    ecc minus      3+12+13+14
 1    -27         0        0        -7          0             48
 2    -27         0        0        -7          0             41
 3    -27         0        0        -7          0             36
 4    -27        0.25     -7        -7          0             20
 5    -27        0.50    -14        -7          0              6
 6    -27        0.75    -20        -7          0             -7
 7    -27         1      -27        -7          0            -21
 8    -27         1      -27        -7          0            -28
 9    -27         1      -27        -7          0            -35
10    -27         1      -27        -7          0            -42
11    -27         1      -27        -7          0            -49

Hex row indicates hexes above and below the equator. Base temperature is
base temperature calculated from stellar luminosity, orbital distance,
albedo, and greenhouse effect. Latitude modifier modifies the base
temperature up or down. Summer plus is temperature increase during
summer; it dosen't apply near the equator, so the 'summer plus' is
multiplied by the axial tilt effect to give the summer plus for that
hex row. Daytime plus is increase during daytime based on length of the
day. Highest temperatures for each hex is found by adding the relevant
columns. Winter and nighttime minus is similarily calculated.


>OK, at *our* TL, you can maintain a temp & humidity *quite* different
>from outside without having your exhaust "plume" be readily detectable
>via IR sensor looking for temp *or* humidity variances. 

[Lot's of interesting information].

Thanks! That's going to help me a lot! 


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8
 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 00:26:03 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Armed merchants

Steve Rennell writes:

>IMO the most likely pirate vessel is an armed merchant, simply because it
>can "swim with the other fish", has guns, and cargo space to drag the
>prizes away.

And IMO it's a most unlikely pirate vessel because it leaves a broad paper
trail whenever it is "swimming with the other fish", cannot earn money as
a merchant when it is pirating or as a pirate when it is trading, is either
no stronger than its prey or much more expensive, and can have several
year's profits wiped out by one lucky shor by an opponent.

The bottom line is that I don't think a pirate can earn enough money to
make piracy profitable if he sticks to taking random cargoes, can't
catch specific targets, and will have a lot of trouble fencing something
as readily identifiable as a starship.
> 
>If the Empire has it so locked down why does the Empire allow armed
>merchant vessels?

I didn't say it made sense, did I? In fact, I specifically said it DIDN'T
make sense.

>Either their armament is a threat to other vessels (in which case you are
>making it possible for pirates to buy weapons legitimately) or the armament
>isn't. If no-one had weapons except the Empires Navy, then there could be
>no pirates - right?

Yeah, right. If no one legally had weapons except the Navy, then only the
Navy and the pirates would have weapons. But that would, of course, make
it a tad tricky for the pirates to pass a customs inspection, now wouldn't
it?

>If Piracy is so impossible, then why do most of the canon ship designs have
>weapons?

Because the canon describes an invented universe that dosen't have a built
in guarantee that it all makes sense?

>My gut response is because piracy _is_ a threat, and the Empire _can't_
>guarantee any vessels safety. 

Nobody claimed that the Empire could guarantee all vessels' safety. Just
that piracy in the CT universe is not a money-making proposition.
 
>IMO The details can vary so much depending on 
>your assumptions, but the end result has should mesh with that.

It's true that the details can vary a lot, but so far I haven't seen any
consistent set of details that makes piracy lucrative. The best suggestion
I've seen so far is a bunch of mutineers in a starship too hot to take
into any legitimate port and certainly too hot to sell, and I'm not at
all convinced that such a ship would be able to survive.

 
And skribe <skribe@amber.com.au> writes:

>I commented on this in an earlier post.  Without trying to reignite the
>piracy debate I must say that as convincing as some of the arguements have
>been against piracy being a major issue in the Imperium the reality remains
>that space is big (real big) and therefore covering all of it is just plain
>impossible.

That would be a devastating argument if it wasn't for the fact that the
tiny percentage of space that merchants would logically travel through is
small (real small).

>I will agree that the major space lanes are going to be mostly free from
>pirates, but get off the beaten track and the risk becomes reality
>(so are the likely profits).

Get off the beaten track and the pickings become very slim too.

>The fact that the Vargr (TL11 according to the MT Rebellion Sourcebook data)
>are still such a threat is indicative of the Imperium's lack of coverage.

What it is indicative of is that the MT authors didn't bother to reality-
check (or perhaps I should say consistency-check) their Vargr menace (or
their Aslan menace for that matter).

>If they can still invade major regions of Imperium space (highest Jump for
>TL11 is Jump 2) then a pirate with a TL15 ship *should* be able to as well.

Ignoring the question of whether the statement is true -- whether the
ability of whole Vargr nations to invade portions of the Imperium really
implies that individual corsairs would be succesful -- I challenge their
(admittedly canonical) ability to imvade the Domain of Deneb. Given the
canonical CT information about Vargr social organisation and Domain of
Deneb naval strength, the Vargr would NOT be able to take away several
subsectors of the Domain of Deneb from a man like Norris. 

BTW, when I write 'admittedly canonical' I mean that I know most, if not
all, of the references to the post-Rebellion Vargr invasions and I do
not claim that they don't exist; I clain that they do not make sense.
Consequently merely referring to any single canonical reference about
the Vargr invasions is not sufficient to convince me otherwise.  



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 16:02:20 -0500
From: eris@pen.net
Subject: Re: Plot ideas (was Re: Disease and the fall...)

On 06/19/98 at 07:55 AM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
said:

>Oh, COOL!!!

>Eris you did NOT see this...

Oh, yes, I did! ;->

>You have NEVER HEARD of such a thing!

Now, I have.

>Uhhh...it wouldn't work it coudn't exist in the Imperium because
>ships are too expensive! 

Yeah, but you aren't *in* the Imperium, *something* destroyed it ages
ago, and it's been a verrry long time since anybody explored those
deep tunnels that Arvitis just loves to poke around in.

>It violates conservation of momentum...It uhhhh... it...oh hell...we're
>cheetos MAN!

Better be nice to Dr. Hasta-Rur, eh? ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #597
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, June 20 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 598



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Plot ideas (was Re: Disease and the fall...)
Re: THUDDD 9 Lab Ship
Re: FS: Fifth Frontier War
Last Call - Rare Traveller Items
Re: real life (tm)
Traveller MacOS Software
Vargr Tech levels (was RE: Armed merchants)
Re: New Weapon (Humor)
Re: Planetary temperatures
Re: Sensor Spoofs
Re: Vargr Tech levels (was RE: Armed merchants)
Re: Traveller MacOS Software
Re: Vargr Tech levels (was RE: Armed merchants)
Re: Vargr Tech levels (was RE: Armed merchants)
Re: Armed Merchants and Piracy
Query re price of DGP Trav Digests.
Re: new combat system (was re: New FFS2 Spreadsheet)
Shaped Charge / HEAT in Vacuum
Re: new combat system (was re: New FFS2 Spreadsheet)
Roleplaying Question: Aslan Occupied Systems
Re: radiators and sensor spoofs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 18:42:32 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Plot ideas (was Re: Disease and the fall...)

eris@pen.net wrote:

> On 06/19/98 at 07:55 AM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> said:
>
> >Oh, COOL!!!
>
> >Eris you did NOT see this...
>
> Oh, yes, I did! ;->
>
> >You have NEVER HEARD of such a thing!
>
> Now, I have.
>
> >Uhhh...it wouldn't work it coudn't exist in the Imperium because
> >ships are too expensive!
>
> Yeah, but you aren't *in* the Imperium, *something* destroyed it ages
> ago, and it's been a verrry long time since anybody explored those
> deep tunnels that Arvitis just loves to poke around in.
>
> >It violates conservation of momentum...It uhhhh... it...oh hell...we're
> >cheetos MAN!
>
> Better be nice to Dr. Hasta-Rur, eh? ;->
>

Might I suggest you go see the X-Files movie for an interesting distribution
vector.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:54:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 9 Lab Ship

> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:22:28 -0400
> From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
> 
> Any chance we could have the Supercollider class added to the THUDD page
> anyway?  List it as a late submission, therefore unrated, but include it
> somehow. 

Heck, if I can put the Sayat entry for THUDDD 8 online, I can damn well
put the Lab Ship of the Gods up, too.  I'll hold off until after the
contest to prevent confusion, and to avoid making all the real contestants
look like rowboats with stern-mounted bunsen burners. :) 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 18:01:00 -0500
From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Subject: Re: FS: Fifth Frontier War

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote

>Subject: Re: FS: Fifth Frontier War
>
>Dear Sir:
>
>You should sort the counters, and just add a couple of bucks to each copy for
>your trouble. It will sell easier.

Thanks for the suggestion, kind sir. Now that I think of it, I'd probably
get a lot more for two complete games than the three now, assuming if any
counters *are* missing, I could use one copy for "salvage parts."

John K.


**************************************************
       "This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                              - Arthur Dent
**************************************************
              "Dork Tower," "Wild Life," "Beached," "Murphy's Rules":
           at 'TOON CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~muskrat/
**************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 08:59:00 +1000
From: Kim White <witepapr@access.net.au>
Subject: Last Call - Rare Traveller Items

LAST CALL - SEE BELOW, I HAVE THREE SETS ONLY LEFT>
>
>First, some historical background. Back in the early 1980's I owned a
business (Starman Adventure Systems) which produced an
Approved-for-Traveller product based on the Duke of Regina's 4518 Lift
Infantry Regiment, the Huscarles (see JoTAS #9 feature article). The product
comprised 3 cloth patches (Regina shoulder flash, Imperial Sunburst patch,
and 4518 Regt. Crest) quality-screen-printed in up to 4 colours, plus an
individually-numbered (and thus unique) Military Discharge Certificate
signed by Norris, Duke of Regina (blank so you could fill in your
character's details), and an instruction sheet detailing where to wear the
patches. After selling a couple of hundred sets, the last sets (or what I
thought were the last) were "remaindered" to GDW, who handed them out as
prizes at some conventions. Those of you who have JoTAS #20 (page 3) or 23
(page 23) can see our advert or read about us in the Editorial. These sets
have sold subsequently to collectors for up to $50 US; they are VERY rare!
>
>Well, while doing a cleanout under my house a few weeks ago, I found enough
materials in a clean, dry, storage box to make up what look like being the
last fifteen complete sets of the 4518th badge packs EVER. The cloth patches
are MINT CONDITION. The Military Discharge Certificates were an end-run and
are unnumbered, at present. I intend to number them in sequence from the
last sets sold back in the 1980's, so the sets will have sequential numbers.
>
>The sets also come with an instruction sheet detailing how the patches are
to be worn on the 4518 uniform ~ this instruction sheet is NOT the
instruction sheet as originally marketed; the original sheet was changed to
reflect SAS's "separation" from the nominal "producer" if we produced a
second run of patches, but this never happened. The "Mark 2" instruction
sheet is a reprint from the original artwork, but is still a genuine
accessory to the "original" patch set. 
>
>I am offering these last-ever sets for $30 US (including airmail postage).
IF I GET MORE OFFERS THAN THERE ARE AVAILABLE SETS, I will give preference
to anyone who is prepared to offer MORE than $30 US.
>
>For those of you who don't know about the 4518 Regt. I can enclose a copy
of material giving the full history of the Regt. as set out in JoTAS #9, at
no cost, to anyone purchasing one of these last 4518th Patch Sets.
>
>Please e-mail me with your offer.
>
>Kim White, Australia
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 20:53:25 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: real life (tm)

dberry@hooked.net wrote:

>We all quit playing Traveller and have switched to a Vampire/Bunnies and
>Burrows combo.
>Oh, the angst of my existence, I wish to hop about, but whats the point?
>Bunnies we are lest Bunnies we become.

Can I be a Tremere Elder Bunny? Please? Please?

And can I have a fusion gun to be a gun bunny?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 01:57:01 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Traveller MacOS Software

Rob Prior's website (which hosts many vehicles, floor plans for Shadows,
and software programs) is soon to close.

My website Http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ now has Rob's Mac Software
installed, and Doug Berry has offered to host the vehicles.

The software includes Imperial Grand Survey (a mapping program), Metator
(system generation), a MegaTraveller Character generator (Hypercard stack)
and several other utilities.

In addition, you can obtain demo versions of Infini-V, the VDS software
utility there. This provides a computer implementation of the rules for
vehicle design in the Central Supply Catalog.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 02:03:36 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Vargr Tech levels (was RE: Armed merchants)

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote

> > in every part of the Imperium.  The fact that the Vargr (TL11 
> > according to the MT Rebellion Sourcebook data) are still such a
> > threat is indicative of the

>   Those are sample ships from an un-named source/world. Lair is listed 
> at TL F, and no doubt there are a number of other Vargr worlds between 
> 12 and 15 in the Extents (not that they're necessarily organized 
> enough to be a threat).

Actually some Vargr worlds have tech levels as high as TL 16.  This is
established first in CT's Vargr Alien module where two Vargr worlds in
Gvurrdon sector are TL 16 according to Second Survey data (AM 3 Vargr pg
47):

0439 	A000000-G	Lo nIn As	220 Va K8 V M7 D
2128	A231355-G	Lo nIn Po	210 Va M9 V

now admitedly these two worlds have a combined population of only about
2,000 Vargr & consequently could build almost nothing but the TL 16
Vargr worlds are out there.  IIRC some MT adventure or supplement
established the existance of at least 1 TL 16, High Pop Industrial Vargr
world (even before they captured the TL 16 Imperial world of Gemid
1903/Vland A 423979-G in 1119).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 00:44:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: New Weapon (Humor)

In mail you write:

> This came last week from my ongoing CT game....
>
> The group was sitting around trying to explain realistic space combat to a
> Trek junkie (you know, the kind that think Trek is the end-all be-all of
> physics) and we got on the subject of kenetic weapons.  One of the players
> used as an example, "if we opened up the cargo door and threw out the sofa
> you're sitting on, and it hit a ship, it would likely vaporize it."  The Trek
> fan got a very disbelieving look on his face and said, "So what would you 
> call that?"  
>
> That's when I popped up and said, " A futon torpedo."  :-)
>
> Don't let Sayboom or Familie Spofulam get ahold of it!  Hehehe

That reminds of of a nasty idea a friend had once. Here it is, modified
to fit Traveller. This is assuming the old bit where thrusters work
fine in deep space.

Have a ship find a comet or something *way* out in the outer reaches of
the system, best would be at least a light *week* out. A light month
would be better. Refuel from it, and also fill a set of drop tanks.

Next, you determine where your target will be at the appropriate time
and start boosting towards it (using thrusters) at max acceleration. At
the same time, start firing your laser(s) at it. When you reach a fair
fraction of c, and are getting close to the target, dump the tanks,
jump to another system, giving yourself plenty of room to decel.

If you can't manage to fire the lasers the whole time, fire them for
the *latter* part of the trip. You want as much as possible of the
laser fire to be done at a high fravtion of c.

From the point of view of the target, your laser beam is shortened to a
brief pulse, and blue-shifted to ranges nobody's lasers can reach. :-)

So if the target doesn't detect the attacking ship, what the survivors
report will be a burst of energy in the high gammas, trailing down
towards the normal frequencies, and containing a truly unreal energy
density.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 01:02:33 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Planetary temperatures

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>
>>>>Two other very important factors. What's the average *daily* temp, and
>>>>what's the average *yearly* temp?
>>>
>>>Here's the temperature worksheet
>> 
>>Care to summarize all the tables? I can't quite figure them out.
>
> BASE TEMPERATURE CHART:
>
>        1       2       3      4         5       6      7        8         9
> Hex  Base  Lattitude  Col  Summer  Axial tilt  Col  Daytime  Orbital   
> Highest
> Row  Temp  modifier   1+2   plus     effect    4*5    plus   ecc plus  
> 3+6+7+8
>  1    34      +21      55    +16        0       0      +7       0         62
>  2    34      +14      48    +16        0       0      +7       0         55
>  3    34       +7      41    +16        0       0      +7       0         48
>  4    34        0      34    +16       0.25     +4     +7       0         45
>  5    34       -7      27    +16       0.50     +8     +7       0         42
>  6    34      -14      20    +16       0.75    +12     +7       0         39
>  7    34      -21      13    +16        1      +16     +7       0         36
>  8    34      -28       6    +16        1      +16     +7       0         29
>  9    34      -35      -1    +16        1      +16     +7       0         22
> 10    34      -42      -8    +16        1      +16     +7       0         15
> 11    34      -49     -15    +16        1      +16     +7       0          8
>
>        10        11        12       13         14             15
> Hex  Winter  Axial tilt   Col   Nighttime   Orbital   Lowest temperature
2> Row  Minus     effect    10*11    Minus    ecc minus      3+12+13+14
>  1    -27         0        0        -7          0             48
>  2    -27         0        0        -7          0             41
>  3    -27         0        0        -7          0             36
>  4    -27        0.25     -7        -7          0             20
>  5    -27        0.50    -14        -7          0              6
>  6    -27        0.75    -20        -7          0             -7
>  7    -27         1      -27        -7          0            -21
>  8    -27         1      -27        -7          0            -28
>  9    -27         1      -27        -7          0            -35
> 10    -27         1      -27        -7          0            -42
> 11    -27         1      -27        -7          0            -49
>
> Hex row indicates hexes above and below the equator. Base temperature is
> base temperature calculated from stellar luminosity, orbital distance,
> albedo, and greenhouse effect. Latitude modifier modifies the base
> temperature up or down. Summer plus is temperature increase during
> summer; it dosen't apply near the equator, so the 'summer plus' is
>2 multiplied by the axial tilt effect to give the summer plus for that
> hex row. Daytime plus is increase during daytime based on length of the
> day. Highest temperatures for each hex is found by adding the relevant
> columns. Winter and nighttime minus is similarily calculated.

Ok, since the daytime + and nightime - seem to be the same, that means
that a thermally buffered surface structure would have an interior
temp that's the figure you'd get *without the night/day modifiers. 

A sufficiently deep habitat would have the temp given by averaging your
highest and lowest temp columns (unless the seasonal swing isd *highly*
asymettrical as in 90 days hot 240 cold or some such. In that case,
figure the temp for each day of the local year, add them all up and
divide by the number of days in a year)

It's also possible that if the day/night swing is really asymettrical
(like near the poles), you'd have to do the same sort of "weighted
average (take the temp every hour, sum them, and divide by number of
hours in a day).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 16:33:54 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Sensor Spoofs

Leonard Erickson writes:

>Doesn't work. The vacuum won't absorb the heat. Most of it will end up
>trying to heat the portions of the radiating surface that face each
>other. 
> 
>Your actual *effective* radiator area is the area of the openings at
>each end. To radiate *away* the heat, it has to be able to travel in a
>*straight* line from the surface of the raidiator to empty sky.

I still think the sub-space heat sink is the way to go. Avoid going into
too much detail and make sure it only works in space and you have a perfect
handwave and can concentrate on quantifying the effects to get the results
we want. You might even say that the existence of something like that is
implied in the (relatively) short CT detection ranges and the various
vague references to stealth technology.

The last time the subject was discussed I was told that such a device
would enable perpetuum mobiles, but when I argued that it would be no
more a perpetuun mobile than a solar panel is and asked just how much
power you could theoretically get out of such a subspace link (always
assuming that the temeprature of subspace weren't 4 K rather than 0 K),
I never saw an answer.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 07:29:32 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Vargr Tech levels (was RE: Armed merchants)

At 02:03 AM 6/20/98 -0800, you wrote:

>0439 	A000000-G	Lo nIn As	220 Va K8 V M7 D

An entire system with TWO Vargr at TL16?!  
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 07:28:08 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Traveller MacOS Software

At 01:57 AM 6/20/98 +0100, you wrote:

>My website Http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ now has Rob's Mac Software
>installed, and Doug Berry has offered to host the vehicles.

Which will be up just as soon as I have 30 seconds to breathe in.

>In addition, you can obtain demo versions of Infini-V, the VDS software
>utility there. This provides a computer implementation of the rules for
>vehicle design in the Central Supply Catalog.

Was Infini-V ever ported to Windows?
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 11:27:16 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr Tech levels (was RE: Armed merchants)

dberry@hooked.net wrote:

> At 02:03 AM 6/20/98 -0800, you wrote:
>
> >0439   A000000-G       Lo nIn As       220 Va K8 V M7 D
>
> An entire system with TWO Vargr at TL16?!

And they're running a class A starport.

Maybe its an abandoned pirate base with a couple of custodians.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 09:08:21 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Vargr Tech levels (was RE: Armed merchants)

Well, it was like this, yah see...The scout doing the survey had picked up two
vargr hitchikers at the last starport...and , well, by the time they'd gotten
into this system, they were deep into the 'shine they'd brewed up in their
makeshift still (look, YOU spend a week cooped up with two vargr and do it
sober!) and well, in that peculiar logic that only drunks can muster, he took
a snapshot of the vargr dangling in their vaccsuits outside the ship, holding
his new CD Walkman-16, and poof! the system was recorded in the Second Survey.
Officially. 2 Vargr, TL-16.

Damn vargr beat him out the the Walkman, too, later. Never play poker with
Vargr...especially when they're dealing and serving the hootch.

dberry@hooked.net wrote:
> 
> At 02:03 AM 6/20/98 -0800, you wrote:
> 
> >0439   A000000-G       Lo nIn As       220 Va K8 V M7 D
> 
> An entire system with TWO Vargr at TL16?!
> --
> 
> Douglas Berry
> dberry@hooked.net
> http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
> Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 14:29:10 EDT
From: JLAROSEE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Armed Merchants and Piracy

Hi-
   Thought I might add a quote to the discussion-

"In the space lanes linking the Imperial core worlds, Imperial Navy vessels
patrol constantly, protecting trade and commerce. But outside that region, a
ship's safety is its own responsibility. Outnumbered and outgunned by pirate
vessels, a lone vessel's only real defense is to evade fire long enough to
escape to jump space." (T4- Book 1)
   
   Sounds as though the fleet is either garrisoned somewhere or space really
is so big that placing sufficient patrolling vessels in each system is
impractical. As a result, only the core systems are rich/important/whatever to
justify the necessary fleet. Thus, the need to arm your trade vessel.
    Jay

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 19:12:20 +0100
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones@whitestar.u-net.com>
Subject: Query re price of DGP Trav Digests.

Hello,

I wonder if anyone can help me. I recently sent my Traveller's Digests #4 
and #16 via Royal Mail in UK to another TML member for review. With no 
blame whatsoever to the TML member, the Royal Mail delivered these in 
a messed up state (ie left them in a puddle!) and I have to try to recover 
damage costs from them. (I sent them Registered Mail, with Insurance of
up to 500 UKPounds!!!!)

What I need is advice from you guys in the know, as to what the selling
on price would be, in a USED condition if they were to come up for sale 
at auction, for example.*
Nb. It would spoil an 'Almost Complete' collection of TD's and MTJ's.

The Royal Mail requires *documented proof* as to what the value would 
be, so if any of you guys could e-mail me personally (ie not to the list) 
as to what value you would pay if they turned up for sale, I would be 
extremely grateful. Then I can get my insurance claim dealt with as 
quickly as possible.


Thanks in advance,

Del Jones

Derrick Jones
St Helens
Lancashire UK
<dojones@whitestar.u-net.com>

*Obviously I would NEVER sell them, as they are way too difficult to get
hold of in the UK, but my potential resale value is decreased.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 21:43:08 +0100
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: new combat system (was re: New FFS2 Spreadsheet)

I look forward to the release of the new space combat system

> the working title is a tossup between "Military Combat System" 
> and "Fusion Guard".

How about:
"Sensor Lock" (if lock-on is a critical feature of space combat) or 
"Space Combat System" (unless it really does cover ground combat too)
"Naval Doctrine"
"Imperial Fleet Action"
"Battle Fleet Traveller"
"Squadron Commander"
"Space Armada"
"Missile Lock"
"Death in Space" (including the police version, Pigs in Space)
"Pocket Empire Strikes Back!" (now we're getting silly)
"Expanding Cloud" (of debris)
"Meson Guns! Meson Guns! Meson Guns!"
"Die, Terran scum!" or Imperial/Vilani/Alien scum?

I must go and lie down now,

Simon

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 23:17:35 +0200
From: Deligiannidis Nikolaos <nikolaos.deligiannidis@stud.tu-muenchen.de>
Subject: Shaped Charge / HEAT in Vacuum

Here I am again with my question :
" Could this function in Vacuum ??"
Could the plasma jet of a shaped charge warhead be built up and focused
in vacuum???
IMO yes.
But which would be the effects of it on armor!
I mean could it stay focused with the flow pressure required to breach
armor ( IIRC about
10E+5 bar,  8230 m/sec ), or will the stream disperse quickly because of
the lack
of the exterior atmospheric pressure!
Bernouli says atmospheric pressure has negligiblen effect! ( if I did
right :-) )!!!

Nikos

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 17:24:47 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: new combat system (was re: New FFS2 Spreadsheet)

Sorry for this in advance but it's too hard to resist.

How about...

Between a Lock and a Hard Place
(Vilani version) Advanced Tactics and Weapons in a Vacuum Environment,
Volume 32.54
(Solomani vesion) "ZAP IT !"
(Vargr version) Ruff Voyaging

Sorry again, I must now go flog myself for this completely useless
silliness.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Cc: sre@taz.compulink.co.uk <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Date: Saturday, June 20, 1998 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: new combat system (was re: New FFS2 Spreadsheet)


>I look forward to the release of the new space combat system
>
>> the working title is a tossup between "Military Combat System"
>> and "Fusion Guard".
>
>How about:
>"Sensor Lock" (if lock-on is a critical feature of space combat) or
>"Space Combat System" (unless it really does cover ground combat too)
>"Naval Doctrine"
>"Imperial Fleet Action"
>"Battle Fleet Traveller"
>"Squadron Commander"
>"Space Armada"
>"Missile Lock"
>"Death in Space" (including the police version, Pigs in Space)
>"Pocket Empire Strikes Back!" (now we're getting silly)
>"Expanding Cloud" (of debris)
>"Meson Guns! Meson Guns! Meson Guns!"
>"Die, Terran scum!" or Imperial/Vilani/Alien scum?
>
>I must go and lie down now,
>
>Simon
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 17:51:02 -0400
From: Matthew Harelick <matth@CYBERNEX.NET>
Subject: Roleplaying Question: Aslan Occupied Systems

- --------------96D24B43956250BFA6BEA61F
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi:

Sorry to interrupt all this techno discussion with a different sort of
question.

If a character is on a planet recently taken over by Aslan invasion, how
would the Imperium citizens be treated? Would they be eaten, enslaved,
monitored? What would life be like on that planet and the planets in
that system?


- --
Matthew S. Harelick             Software Developer      PhD Candidate
matth@cybernex.net              matth@unipress.com      matth@time.njit.edu
http://www2.cybernex.net/~matth



- --------------96D24B43956250BFA6BEA61F
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
Hi:

<P>Sorry to interrupt all this techno discussion with a different sort
of question.

<P>If a character is on a planet recently taken over by Aslan invasion,
how would the Imperium citizens be treated? Would they be eaten, enslaved,
<BR>monitored? What would life be like on that planet and the planets in
that system?
<BR>&nbsp;
<PRE>--&nbsp;
Matthew S. Harelick&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Software Developer&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PhD Candidate
matth@cybernex.net&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; matth@unipress.com&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; matth@time.njit.edu
<A HREF="http://www2.cybernex.net/~matth">http://www2.cybernex.net/~matth</A></PRE>
&nbsp;</HTML>

- --------------96D24B43956250BFA6BEA61F--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:12:41 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: radiators and sensor spoofs

> Of course, the fundamental reason for the 10% assumption is that
> otherwise large ships become impossible; you run out of surface area.
> Try designing a big TL-12 ship with ten times the radiator area
> given in FFS2 - you get into trouble fast. We're *already* running
> radiators at unrealistically high temperatures, and everyone wants
> big ships, so we had to compromise (in a not-completely-ludicrous way,
> although the waste heat from refrigeration is inadequately accounted
> for.)

Why don't they just stick big radiator fins on the ships?  They do it with antenna on
smaller ships.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #598
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, June 21 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 599



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Vargr Tech Levels
Re: new combat system (was re: New FFS2 Spreadsheet)
Weapon Question
Re: radiators and sensor spoofs
Re: Armed merchants
Re: Armed merchants
Re: Vargr Tech Levels
Re: Ships...
re:Message For Dom Mooney's Postmaster
Re: Traveller MacOS Software
re: Vargr Tech levels (was RE: Armed merchants)
Re: Vargr Tech levels (was RE: Armed merchants)
Infini-V for Windows (was: Traveller MacOS Software)
Re: Shaped Charge / HEAT in Vacuum
Re: Vargr Tech Levels 
Re: Nobles in the Spinward Marches
Re: Armed merchants and piracy
Re: Aslan Occupied Systems
Re: Roleplaying Question: Aslan Occupied Systems
AUCTION: Classic Traveller (Update 2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 22:01:39 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Vargr Tech Levels

Doug Berry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
At 02:03 AM 6/20/98 -0800, you wrote:

>0439 	A000000-G	Lo nIn As	220 Va K8 V M7 D

An entire system with TWO Vargr at TL16?!  
- --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Must be Grandfather's pet dobermans...  <g>

Walt Smith
System Manager
Hartwick College
Oneonta, NY
smithw@hartwick.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 21:05:25 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: new combat system (was re: New FFS2 Spreadsheet)

At 09:43 PM 6/20/98 +0100, you wrote:
>I look forward to the release of the new space combat system
>
>> the working title is a tossup between "Military Combat System" 
>> and "Fusion Guard".
>
>How about:

<snip of possible names>

Hard Lock
Signal GK
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 01:35:31 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Weapon Question

I have a question on Particle Accelerators and Meson Guns for an upcoming
installment in my PBEM.

If a PA or MG is fired at a target in an atmosphere;

A:  What kind of visual signature will they make both at impact/detonation
and during projection from the weapon?

B:  What kind of radiaion is produced on the target and how long does it last?

Thanks! 

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net



http://www.igateway.com/clients/kurt/mp  Morrow Project Site

http://www.igateway.com/clients/kurt/pj PJ the Welsh Terrier Site

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jun 98 01:11:15 -0500
From: eris@pen.net
Subject: Re: radiators and sensor spoofs

On 06/18/98 at 02:12 PM,  Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> said:

>> Of course, the fundamental reason for the 10% assumption is that
>> otherwise large ships become impossible; you run out of surface area.
>> Try designing a big TL-12 ship with ten times the radiator area
>> given in FFS2 - you get into trouble fast. We're *already* running
>> radiators at unrealistically high temperatures, and everyone wants
>> big ships, so we had to compromise (in a not-completely-ludicrous way,
>> although the waste heat from refrigeration is inadequately accounted
>> for.)

>Why don't they just stick big radiator fins on the ships?  They do it
>with antenna on smaller ships.

They can...up to a point.  They just have to make sure the fins don't
face each other.  Of course, you wouldn't want great big fins as a
permanate feature on a streamlined ship, so I posted the idea of
extending a long flat radiator ribbon out from the ship at couple of
weeks ago.  Extend it to expose more surface area, pull it in when you
don't need to use it.

Of course, now radiator surfaces become interesting targets for
anything that can "scrub" a surface.  Knock out the radiators and the
ship you're fighting has to cut power or die.  Knock out enough
radiators and the ship can't fight or flee.  

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 19:15:49 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Armed merchants

> Steve Rennell writes:
> >IMO the most likely pirate vessel is an armed merchant, simply because it
> >can "swim with the other fish", has guns, and cargo space to drag the
> >prizes away.

Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>replied> 
> And IMO it's a most unlikely pirate vessel because it leaves a broad paper
> trail whenever it is "swimming with the other fish", cannot earn money as
> a merchant when it is pirating or as a pirate when it is trading, is either
> no stronger than its prey or much more expensive, and can have several
> year's profits wiped out by one lucky shor by an opponent.

Ah, but at least I'm avoiding the problem of where exactly 
the pirate ship was built... (Which I couldn't think of a 
convincing argument for) It also seems that most of your 
other problems are the same for more specialised pirate 
vessels, the only major exception being the "No stronger 
than it's prey or more expensive". That's why I would tend 
to have a merchant unload a collection of fighters to do 
the fighting, and show up after the mess is dealt with to 
collect the bits. That assumes there is time to deal with 
it, but that's life.


> >Either their armament is a threat to other vessels (in which case you are
> >making it possible for pirates to buy weapons legitimately) or the armament
> >isn't. If no-one had weapons except the Empires Navy, then there could be
> >no pirates - right?
> 
> Yeah, right. If no one legally had weapons except the Navy, then only the
> Navy and the pirates would have weapons. But that would, of course, make
> it a tad tricky for the pirates to pass a customs inspection, now wouldn't
> it?

Exactly. It would also make it hard for the pirates to 
source weaponry from anywhere inside the Empire. Since that 
doesn't happen, I see it as giving some information about 
how the Empire is run.
 
> >If Piracy is so impossible, then why do most of the canon ship designs have
> >weapons?
> 
> Because the canon describes an invented universe that dosen't have a built
> in guarantee that it all makes sense?

I would tend to agree, but I'd start in a different place
than deciding that piracy doesn't make sense. I have a
great deal of faith in the inventiveness of criminals (or
perhaps their inability to realistically evaluate
risk/benefit) and I believe that given most sets of
affordable (both in cost and usability of the system)
security measures by the Empire, someone will figure a way
around it. I've done enough security of buildings to
realise that most systems can be got past if you have
enough information, and that information is the key.

> >My gut response is because piracy _is_ a threat, and the
> > Empire _can't_ guarantee any vessels safety. 
 
> Nobody claimed that the Empire could guarantee all
> vessels' safety. Just that piracy in the CT universe is
> not a money-making proposition.

In General, neither is bank robbery in the real world. It 
still happens. What I'm suggesting is that one of the 
reasons the Empire would allow civilians to carry 
ship-to-ship weapons is to fight off pirates, and that 
would only happen if pirates were common enough to be a 
realistic threat.
 
> It's true that the details can vary a lot, but so far I haven't seen any
> consistent set of details that makes piracy lucrative. 

I don't expect it to be lucrative. I expect enough people 
to get away with it that the soap-operas still refer to it 
romantically, and the criminally inclined might believe 
their chances are better than they actually are.
  
And isn't part of your argument that if they get away with 
it once that makes it lucrative enough to spend Mcr hunting 
the pirates down? (Apologies if I've mixed your argument up 
with someone elses).

Steve
 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 19:27:49 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Armed merchants

> >From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
> >IMO the most likely pirate vessel is an armed merchant, 
> >simply because it can "swim with the other fish", has guns, 
> >and cargo space to drag the prizes away. 

Steven Hudson replied: 
>   Ooh, a potential convert!

? What exactly do you mean by this ? :-)
 
> >If the Empire has it so locked down why does the Empire 
> >allow armed merchant vessels? 

>   It could be a cultural thing, although we're not told enough to decide
> for ourselves. 

"Allowing that an armed militia is a good way to keep 
politicians in check..." ? Too irrational for me. :-)

> OC, if no-one had "weapons", then rigging up a mass-driver
> for close-in work would arm you well enough for piracy. Or just deploy
> a high thrust launch with some well-aimed bowling balls.

True, but you'd need to get seriously close to have much 
chance of hitting with a bowling ball  -  besides, those 
things are expensive.... :-)

> There's no way that CT/Mayday contact / proximity
> HE/"focussed charge" missiles can work or would exist
> given what we know now, and using the rules since
> enshrined in various design sequences. 

I have missed this - why wouldn't a Shaped charge contact 
missile work in a vacuum? 1 Atmosphere difference shouldn't 
have that much effect on its working, since most if not all 
of the gas and plasma is provided internally to the shaped 
charge. Of course, without the atmosphere to pass on the 
shockwave the wave will be even more directional, but I 
wouldn't expect it to spread much in the half meter or so 
for optimal penetration. Proximity explosions are less 
useful perhaps, but some modern Air-to-Air missiles get 
their kills from launching shrapnel (in the classical 
sense) at the target in an explosively propelled cone 
pattern. (Claymores in space anyone?)

> So either civilians in a revised CT wouldn't have effective
> (i.e., mil-equivalent) missiles or the Imperium would have to have changed
> its' attitude about nukes. I suggest the former, as ships can still have
> fun with lasers and sand - and pirates can still succeed with them.

Definitely keeping Nukes out of the hands of civies is a 
high priority. (But then, a seriously abused fission 
reactor can cause a pretty mess in the park-bay too).
 
Steve

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 08:29:52 +0100
From: Dom <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr Tech Levels

At 22:01 20/06/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Doug Berry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>At 02:03 AM 6/20/98 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>0439 	A000000-G	Lo nIn As	220 Va K8 V M7 D
>
>An entire system with TWO Vargr at TL16?!  
>--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>Must be Grandfather's pet dobermans...  <g>
>
The R&D would have TL17 can openers !!!!




Dom
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com  or  mailto:dominicr@bigfoot.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 20:59:02 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Ships...

From:           	"Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject:        	Re: Ships...
Date sent:      	Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:10:36 PDT

> >Rget Sild, Orca class Raider (FF&S v2)
> >Designed by Andrew Moffatt-Vallance

> >Small Craft

> Excellent ship.  But why no small craft?  I can't imagine a commander 
> wanting to always use the primary ship....

Simply no room. The design is actually very crampt. Plus the ship doesn't 
really need one. I was trying to make a 2nd WW U-boat equivalent. A small 
craft would have been a nice extra, but it would have ment sacrifising 
something more important.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++++ su+ ge

************************************************************
Of course its safe, I made it myself
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 11:23:57 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re:Message For Dom Mooney's Postmaster

Apologies for wasting bandwidth etc.

Rob,

I've sent the email to my postmaster... If you need to contact me urgently
it may be better to use the TWG list, as I read that one when I get it,
whereas TML may take a day or so.

One thing I noticed was your postmaster used  "@cybergoths.u-net.net" and
it should be "@cybergoths.u-net.COM" :-/

WRT your website - I have grabbed the language files and Shadows, but the
latter is 1.8Mb in sizes. I may need to Stuff that to put it on my site.
These elements may wait until I get a chance for a major overhaul of my
site.

Will send some Spacebourne stuff this weekend -

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 10:35:06 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller MacOS Software

dberry@hooked.net wrote:

>Was Infini-V ever ported to Windows?

It is in progress - the programmer working on it was/is part of the support
group working at the recent G8 summit in Birmingham, UK, and was kind of
otherwise occupied. I'm afraid it's only a Mac thing at the moment.

BTW, has anyone run Infini-V on a G3 Mac?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 10:31:33 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Vargr Tech levels (was RE: Armed merchants)

Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net> wrote:

>shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote
>>   Those are sample ships from an un-named source/world. Lair is listed
>> at TL F, and no doubt there are a number of other Vargr worlds between
>> 12 and 15 in the Extents (not that they're necessarily organized
>> enough to be a threat).

Maybe it is because they have no standardisation across the various Vargr
states in the extents. None of the components integrate, so the the higher
technology can't spread through the Vargr, and lower technologies dominate.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 23:34:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Vargr Tech levels (was RE: Armed merchants)

In mail you write:

> At 02:03 AM 6/20/98 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>0439   A000000-G       Lo nIn As       220 Va K8 V M7 D
>
> An entire system with TWO Vargr at TL16?!  

Sure. I think Vargr are *particularly* suited to the "Mad Scientist"
career. After all, isn't one of the common lines "Now I'll get some
respect. I'll show them!"

Sounds to me like a Vargr deciding to raise his charisma the hard way.
:-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 09:31:49 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Infini-V for Windows (was: Traveller MacOS Software)

traveller@mpgn.com,Internet writes:
>>In addition, you can obtain demo versions of Infini-V, the VDS software
>>utility there. This provides a computer implementation of the rules for
>>vehicle design in the Central Supply Catalog.
>
>Was Infini-V ever ported to Windows?

Not yet, for which you can blaim the G8 conference.

Seriously, my school was selected to represent Canada at eth Young
People's Summit (a parallel G8 summit) in Birmingham. Suchir (the student
who was doing the port) was one of the tech team, responsible for setting
up and running an Internet server capable of handling cross-country and
international communication. They succeeded magnificently (the kids, the
official tech support sucked) but had no lives outside the program for a
semester. I'm hoping Suchir can finish it this summer, before he enters
computer engineering at Waterloo.

Failing that, I am hoping to be able to afford a new G3 computer in August
(one of the iMacs). If I can't afford that I'll get a used 486 so I can
finish the job.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 14:07:19 GMT
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: Shaped Charge / HEAT in Vacuum

On Sat, 20 Jun 1998 23:17:35 +0200, you wrote:

>Here I am again with my question :
>" Could this function in Vacuum ??"
>Could the plasma jet of a shaped charge warhead be built up and focused
>in vacuum???
>IMO yes.
>But which would be the effects of it on armor!
>I mean could it stay focused with the flow pressure required to breach
>armor ( IIRC about
>10E+5 bar,  8230 m/sec ), or will the stream disperse quickly because of
>the lack
>of the exterior atmospheric pressure!
>Bernouli says atmospheric pressure has negligiblen effect! ( if I did
>right :-) )!!!

Atmospheric pressure is irrelevent to the function of a shaped charge
warhead. The jet is focussed so quickly and for so short a time that
the presence or absence of an atmosphere does not matter.

John Lansford

The unofficial I-26 Construction Webpage:
http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 11:35:24 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr Tech Levels 

> Doug Berry wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> At 02:03 AM 6/20/98 -0800, you wrote:
> 
> >0439 	A000000-G	Lo nIn As	220 Va K8 V M7 D
> 
> An entire system with TWO Vargr at TL16?!  
> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> 
> Must be Grandfather's pet dobermans...  <g>

No, they'd be TL25.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 20:26:08 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Nobles in the Spinward Marches

Peter H. Brenton writes:

>Anyone know of a source for detailing the (upper) Nobility of the Spinward
>Marches in, say, 1107 or so?  Either canon or IYTU?

Your question inspired me to rough out the nobles of Norris' Duchy. I'll
propably do the other duchies of the Spinward Marches by and by, but don't
hold your breath waiting, this one took me most of an afternoon to do.

Duke of Regina (Subsector)       1
  Count Aledon                   1   
    Marquis of Regina (System)   1  
      Baron of Yori              1  
      Baron of Jenghe            2
  Count of Efate                 3
    Marquis <Family name>        3
      Baron of Yres              3
    Marquis of Alell             4
      Baron of Ukaye             4
    Marquis of Menorb            5
      Baron of Boughene          5
  Count of Rethe                 6
    Marquis <Family name>        6
      Baron of Inthe             6
    Marquis of Paya          (Defunct)   
      Baron of Dhian         (Defunct)
  Count of Roup                  7
    Marquis <Family name>        7
      Baron of Beck's World      7
      Baron of Feri              8
    Marquis of Wochiers          9
      Baron of Enope             9
    Marquis of Heya             10
      Baron of Yorbund          10
      Baron of Dentus           11
      Baron of Kinorb           12
  Count of Jewell (Subsector)   13
    Marquis of Jewell (System)  13
      Baron of Emerald          13
      Baron of Ruby             14
      Baron of Lysen            15
    Marquis of Louzy            16
      Baron of Mongo            16
    Marquis of Grant         (Defunct)

1 = Norris Aella Aledon
8 = Marc hault-Oberlindes

Note 1: I'm sure I've seen an adventure where another Reginan noble was named,
but I can't recall the reference. I _think_ it was one of the last issues of
_Challenge_.

Note 2: There may be more nobles than those listed above. Possibly quite a
few more. Possibly a LOT more. _Megatraveller Journal #3_ mentions an
Imperial navy officer who was created Baroness of Delcambre late in the
5FW. Presumably this represent the kind of noble patents the Character
Generation Tables hands out. IMTU such patents are knighthoods equivalent to
local planetary nobility rather than Imperial nobles, but the OTU don't have
that distinction.

As for the rest of the SM, there is definitely a Duke of Rhylanor and a
Duchess of Mora. I'd expect dukes of Trin, Glisten, and Strouden too. IMO
there is no Duke of Aramis nor of Five Sisters and I haven't made up my
mind about Lanth yet.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 21:05:09 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Armed merchants and piracy

JLAROSEE@aol.com writes:

>"In the space lanes linking the Imperial core worlds, Imperial Navy vessels
>patrol constantly, protecting trade and commerce. But outside that region, a
>ship's safety is its own responsibility. Outnumbered and outgunned by pirate
>vessels, a lone vessel's only real defense is to evade fire long enough to
>escape to jump space." (T4- Book 1)
>    
>   Sounds as though the fleet is either garrisoned somewhere or space really
>is so big that placing sufficient patrolling vessels in each system is
>impractical.

Either that or the bit you quote does not fit the logical ramifications of
other, equally canonical, parts of the Traveller background.

We really need to get all the piracy arguments, both pro and con, added to
the FAQ list.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
  "Free speech gives a man the right to talk about the
'psycology' of an amoeba, but I don't have to listen".
                  Elihu Nivens in 'The Puppet Masters'

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 15:15:00 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Aslan Occupied Systems

>Sorry to interrupt all this techno discussion with a different sort of
>question.
>
>If a character is on a planet recently taken over by Aslan invasion, how
>would the Imperium citizens be treated? Would they be eaten, enslaved,
>monitored? What would life be like on that planet and the planets in
>that system?

 This depends on several things: the two populations and how they compare to
available resources, the amounts of force and bad will generated by the
arrival and "takeover" of the Aslan, and the pre-existing racial attitudes
based
either on long-term beliefs or just last week's news.

 If the world has plenty of room and knows it, the Aslan of the Aorlahkt
(we're
talking Rebellion-era, right?) would likely just immigrate enmass, shifting
the
local cultural balance.
 If the world either has no room or doesn't want anyone using what room
exists,
then they are likely to resist. What happens next will depend strongly on
the number of "cooler heads" both sides possess. The Aslan are interested in
Land, but most of them aren't interested in genocide to get it.
 If the Aslan move in and the only way for them to secure their land is to
keep the humans under close watch, then it may be attempted. Relative tech
levels and industrial/economic power will determine their success. Enslavement
or being used as a food animal are both highly unlikely; the Aslan don't think
that way...

GypsyComet

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 14:10:43 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Roleplaying Question: Aslan Occupied Systems

Matthew Harelick wrote:
> 
> Hi:
> 
> Sorry to interrupt all this techno discussion with a different sort of
> question.
> 
> If a character is on a planet recently taken over by Aslan invasion,
> how would the Imperium citizens be treated? Would they be eaten,
> enslaved,
> monitored? What would life be like on that planet and the planets in
> that system?

It really depends on what you mean by 'taken over' Ihatei fleets are in search
not only of land, but markets for what their land will produce, so they'll try
to stay in good relations with their local markets. I see them acting like
many tightly knit migrant groups in the US. They start off poor, stick
together, help each other get started, etc. There will be friction, but it'll
likely be economically motivated rather than anything else. (witness the
friction between Vietnamese and Anglo fisherman in coastal Texas during the
early 80's for instance)

If some clan from the Heirate takes over they'll likely just supplant the
imperial functions: ie: you'll pay taxes to the clan not the Imperium. There
may be forced resettlements, but that, too, is unlikely, since the clan will
probably _not_ want to get into a long drawn out guerilla war...that gets in
the way of claiming land (males) or running the business (females).

Planets that gain an Aslan majority will start to become much more Aslan-like
in culture, to the point of humans being assimilated. (There are human
colonies that have been part of the Hierate so long that they have their own
clans and are very Aslan in behavior if not genetics.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 14:12:48 -0700
From: Joel Pratt <jpratt@ucla.edu>
Subject: AUCTION: Classic Traveller (Update 2)

Auction: Classic Traveller Books (Update 2)
Featuring: DGP Stuff, Alien Modules, The Traveller Adventure, Judges Guild

Rules:
1) Email all bids to jpratt@ucla.edu
2) Purchaser pays ALL shipping charges.
3) American funds only, please, as check or money order.
4) Items will be held until check clears.
5) Bidding will continue until price stops rising. Going/Goingx2/Gone.
6) Email me (jpratt@ucla.edu) if you have any questions.
7) All items are in Excellent to Near Mint condition unless otherwise noted
8) Frequent status updates will be emailed to bidders.
  Mailing list will receive only one update.
9) Thanks for looking.

Alien Module 1 - Aslan
Minimum Bid: $10

Alien Module 1 - Aslan
Minimum Bid: $10

Alien Module 1 - Aslan
Minimum Bid: $10

Alien Module 2 - K'Kree
Minimum Bid: $10
Current Bid: $20 Eliot

Alien Module 3 - Vargr
Minimum Bid: $15 Rob

Alien Module 4 - Zhodani
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Current Bid: $15 Rob

Alien Module 5 - Droyne
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Current Bid: $18 George

Alien Module 6 - Solomani
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Current Bid: $12 Qstor

Alien Module 7 - Hivers
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Current Bid: $15 George

Alien Module 8 - Darrians
Minimum Bid: $10

Atlas of the Imperium
Minimum Bid: $20
Current Bid: $37 Dom

Alien Realms
A 48 page, 8"x11" book of 8 adventures featuring the races from the
Alien Modules (as PCs)
Minimum Bid: $10
Current Bid: $15 Kerby

Spinward Marches Campaign
(NOTE: page 15/16 suffers some water stains. Entirely readable, usable)
Minimum Bid: $10
Current Bid: $12 Qstor

DGP: The Early Adventures
Minimum Bid: $20
Current Bid: $35 Jen

DGP: Grand Survey
Minimum Bid: $15
Current Bid: $25 Jen

DGP: Grand Census
Minimum Bid: $15
Current Bid: $25 Jen

The Traveller Book
(NOTE: Hardcover, missing slipcover, edges/corners are shelfworn)
Minimum Bid: $12
Current Bid: $12 Svenson

The Traveller Adventure
(Good condition, softcover, enormous campaign of traded MARCH HARRIER)
Minimum Bid: $15
Current Bid: $15 Walt

Tarsus
(NOTE: Does not include box or player character cards)
Minimum Bid: $10

Beltstrike
(NOTE: Does not include box or player character cards)
Minimum Bid: $10

Beltstrike
(NOTE: Does not include box or player character cards)
Minimum Bid: $10

Starter Edition Traveller
(NOTE: Includes 64pp Rules Booklet, 24pp Charts&Tables, Mission to
Mithril/Shadows)
Minimum Bid: $10
Current Bid: $10 Svenson

Starter Edition Traveller
(NOTE: Includes 64pp Rules Booklet, 24pp Charts&Tables, 8pp Additional Rules)
Minimum Bid: $10

JG: Darthanon Queen
Minimum Bid: $5

JG: Tancred
Minimum Bid: $5

JG: Marooned on Mithril
WITHDRAWN FROM AUCTION - ITEM MIS-LABELLED




- --Joel Pratt
jpratt@ucla.edu

"Bill Clinton does not have the moral fiber to be a mass murderer."
 -- Nobel Peace Prize recipient Dr. Henry Kissinger, Spring 1997

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #599
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